#i think romantic and platonic relationships are equally valuable

[nezumasa]

Actually very funny when dudes (gender neutral) get mad that the male Shounen protagonist and their beloved male rival who they call their destined partner (or similar) and who they would sacrifice everything for are paired together.

But suddenly 10 billion heterosexual harem fics where the female characters are turned into notches on the bed, sex dolls, and wives are okay.

“Why can’t men have platonic relationships?” And it’s something (a male friendship) that has been allowed for millennia and even gay relationships have been turned into a deep friendship with “no homo” (Ex. Achilles and Patroclus, who constantly get arguments about the nature of that relationship)

[jerreeeeeee]

more and more i find myself interested in the period of time where barry and lup were best friends and sort of both knew they were starting to have romantic feelings but also were both not ready to act on them and continued to be close friends.

like so often i’d resist that sort of story, because they end up in a romantic relationship, and so it feels like that feeds into that narrative of “inevitability,” it feels like it retroactively cancels out the “platonic explanation” for how close they were before, but i don’t think that’s actually true for them? the “inevitability” isn’t that they’d develop romantic feelings, because any friendship that close must eventually become romantic, rather it’s that they happen to develop romantic feelings, and so it’s inevitable that they trust and love each other enough to take their time and change their relationship as they want to, because their friendship means so much to them.

there was a platonic explanation for how close they were before they started feeling romantically and before they started labelling their relationship as romantic, because before all that, their relationship was platonic. they were close friends who loved each other and then they fell in love romantically. they still loved each other equally as much when they were “””just””” friends. if they’d never developed those romantic feelings they’d still be close and love one another. (case in point; their respective relationships to taako, or at the very least lup’s relationship to taako, which is equally close and deep and loving, yet platonic, and in fact directly mentioned as remaining just as important to lup) (and really, case in point their relationships to everyone on the starblaster. in the monologue about lup and barry, griffin takes care to mention that the relationships between everyone on the crew had become indescribably close, and never positions their romance as being “more” than any of the others’ friendships).

the reason i dislike friends to lovers is because usually those stories imply that romance is the inevitable end to a close friendship, that romance is a deepening of a relationship, but taz balance so pointedly does not say that about all its other myriad deep and profound platonic relationships; the narrative, at every turn, fully respects its friendships and platonic bonds, so this one happening to be a romance doesn’t actually bother me. it does actually feel like a choice people made because they felt like it and wanted to, rather than being forced in, and it doesn’t reinforce amatonormative bias, because the story doesn’t.

their ending up as a romance doesn’t invalidate the friendship beforehand, because the friendship was already so deep and valuable to both of them. and honestly, from the way the monologue goes, it seems to me that they weren’t exactly pining, they weren’t longing to deepen their relationship, they didn’t experience distance before becoming a couple; they were together every step of the way. it was already deep and close and loving before they decided to change it, and they took their time because that was how they wanted to do it. not being together romantically never stopped them from spending time together or valuing their relationship or loving one another.

[batmanfruitloops]

Idk if this question I have was already explained but I’m curious is the relationship between Jo and Ed meant to be like a queer platonic type relationship thing? Or is it just simply meant to be found family and or just a friendship.

Apologies if this was already explained or if this is crossing a boundary and uncomfortable, I am just curious as a fellow aro who has a queer platonic relationship if that’s what Jo and Ed’s relationship was meant to be

It has been asked before, but that was a while ago so don't worry. You are not crossing a boundary either, you can ask us anything that's pg-13 basically. Found family is the best way to describe their relationship as they have essentially adopted each other as siblings. Both have been incredibly lonely for all/most of their lives and so have bonded to each other very strongly. I have had a handful of friendships where they become more like family so platonic relationships are very important to me. I know most people ship Scarecrow and Riddler as romantic partners and it's a funny and cute pairing sometimes. It just doesn't fit our version. They wouldn't consider themselves a QPR, nor do Sarsee or I consider them such.

Their relationship is heavily based on my own relationships and my values about relationships. I don't really like the sentiment of "more than friends," to me, it feels like it makes platonic relationships seem like a lesser relationship. I think all forms of love are equal, a romantic relationship in my eyes is just as valuable as a platonic relationship it's just a different way to love someone.

Just a couple of cards, these two.

They can't tell people how they met, and Ed can't lie. So Jo gets to make up whatever story he wants.

-Fluffy

[damnfandomproblems]

Fandom Problem #6356:

Learning about aromanticism and amatonormativity turned me into a huge polyshipper. Sounds like a contradictory article headline, right? But it's true.

Since relearning how to approach relationships, and since learning that platonic relationships and romantic relationships can have equal importance, I no longer ship based on who I think is "best" for a character. I ask myself "is A's relationship with B already valuable as it is or do I feel the need to make it romantic in order to 'add' value to it?" A character is either valuable to another character or they are not. Deciding that a B should be A's friend rather than love interest because friendship is somehow 'lesser' than romance is amatonormative. A character doesn't become more valuable due to romance.

At the end of the day, the difference between platonic relationships and romantic relationships is attraction, tradition and what activities you like doing together, and sometimes a relationship sits ambiguously in between. If a character can have multiple of friends, then why can't they have multiple love interests?

Now I decide whether I want to see characters as being in a friendship or romantic relationship based on how I interpret their attraction, not their worth to one another. Whether I want to see characters in a friend group or polycule works the same way! I don't ship by 'value' anymore.

[arotechno]

the way the aro community talks about attraction is inadequate

Disclaimer: The following is in no way intended to invalidate, shame, or "call out" anyone for using whatever language or terminology they see fit to describe their own experiences. This is about community-wide trends and pressures, rather than individual choices.

As an aroace, I've never felt a particular desire to label other types of attraction I may or may not feel. Identifying as aroace is a way for me to express my disconnect with what society at large views as healthy, normal, valuable, and aspirational; that is, a committed, monogamous, sexual and romantic relationship. I don't want those things. I'm not able to even understand them. But by and large, beyond that, I don't find the framework of different types of attraction very useful at all.

This is the fatal flaw of the split-attraction model in its most advanced form: it's predicated on the idea that there are distinct types of attraction that can be qualified and quantified in neat and tidy boxes. Just as there are people for whom romantic and sexual attraction cannot be separated, there are many (like myself) for whom the very concept of attraction breaks down more and more the more you try to categorize it.

Here's the thing: relationships (of any kind) aren't inherently predicated on attraction, just as they aren't necessarily predicated on love. We can understand, as a community, why an aro person might have a successful romantic relationship despite not feeling romantic attraction, or why an ace person might enjoy engaging in sex even if they are not sexually attracted to their partner. Attraction does not equal action. So why, then, must we make the assumption that everyone must categorize their feelings in terms of attraction at all? This is how we end up with terms like queerplatonic attraction, which warps the original definition of queerplatonic such that a QPR becomes something predicated on a separate kind of attraction that is more unique and special than "regular" platonic feelings, rather than being a broad type of non-romantic relationship that is deliberately built and developed by the people in it based on their own personal needs and desires, and not necessarily based on some ephemeral type of attraction.

This sort of trend towards hyper-categorization is extremely frustrating to someone like me, who doesn't view their relationships or their feelings for others in terms of attraction at all. I'm not platonically "attracted" to my friends, I don't think. I love them platonically (deeply, unconditionally, almost like family), but naming it as attraction makes me almost uncomfortable. Others may not feel that way and that's fine. It's no skin off my nose how people choose to talk about their own feelings. But the implicit expectation in a lot of aro spaces is that you will label your attraction, your feelings, your experiences, your desires, your orientations according to such-and-such paradigms, as if we can wordsmith our way out of simply understanding one another. As if the diversity of aromantic experiences were something we need to break down and quantify.

All of these things are socially constructed. Sex, romance, love, relationships, attraction. That doesn't make them not real, but they are not divinely granted concepts with their own inherent, easy-to-understand taxonomy. We make up the language necessary to describe complex and diverse human experiences as best we can, because it's the only way. But what is absolutely crucial to remember, as a crucial tenet of aro activism and beyond, is that none of these models work for every single person, and needn't be prescriptive.

[womendeservehumanity]

Being aware of how much men hate us makes it hard for me to have any sort of hope. I'm straight (I think??) and I don't think I want to date men at all which is fine because I never dated anyway, but still I yearn for Intimitacy and romance and I can only get that through fiction. You can't be with a man without chopping off a part of yourself first. I wish I were still unaware of how much they hate us, although I think we all know deep down. We choose not to see it in order to...live. it's a heavy burden. What do you with it?

I have never in my life related to something this hard. This sounds like something I’d write omg 😭 I really do feel for you. As someone who has loved romance and romcoms since as long as they could remember, I always had this picturesque idea of relationships. That they were equal. That it wouldn’t even be a question that a man would see women as people and be capable of loving a woman. I thought they viewed women and relationships with women how I and other women view them.

Throughout middle school I had VERY intense crushes. Like I was obsessed lol. I never really comprehended the concept of misogyny and the very warped way men and boys viewed women and girls. I, again just thought they viewed us the way we viewed them. Void of hatred and objectification.

I’ve had one boyfriend in my life and he gave me hope that there were men that were truly capable of loving a woman. That were free of misogyny as much as a man could be. And I truly do think that he loved me and that he’s a good person (pls don’t crucify me radblr). He definitely wasn’t perfect. I didn’t find my unicorn of a man or anything.

Although I had that experience I still have come to the conclusion that it’s not worth it searching for that man who, in a sea of men that do nothing but make women’s lives worse, is a good person and sees me and other women as people deserving of respect. And it’s definitely not the worth the risk. But I still very much feel you on craving intimacy and romance. And it’s so polarizing to innately desire that with your biggest threat.

It’s something I’m still navigating so I can’t give you the most surefire advice or perspective. Women are taught since so young, to center and prioritize romantic relationships above everything. I’ve seen the result, where so many girls have essentially alienated themselves from anything beyond their boyfriend. Identity, relationships, etc. it’s heartbreaking. So I feel like it especially makes the idea of a life without romance seem hard. But familial and platonic relationships are just as valuable. Romance isn’t the endgame and end all be all. There are so many amazing women out there who will show you so much warmth and love in life. And just because it isn’t romantic doesn’t mean it’s not fulfilling.

And I know this is corny and self explanatory but having a relationship and love for yourself is so important. Especially in a world that thinks you don’t deserve that. You do! I practice mindfulness a lot. It helps with feeling grounded and being able to find inner peace. Sometimes I just see how much this world hates women. How much women are suffering globally. How much men truly hate us. To a capacity I could never comprehend a human being feeling. And that the idea of ever being with a man without knowing all of this and him not being apart of the problem is unrealistic. It’s so overwhelming and frustrating at times that it consumes me. And having that mindfulness is why I can still be happy and enjoy life. Another thing. Invest in your hobbies and interests. Take that time for yourself. I love going to the movie theater (my absolute favorite place on this earth) and just leaving everything behind for a 1-2 hours. You deserve that.

Another thing. I still love me a good romcom/romance movie, romance novel, and ship. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with indulging in it. Most of the time it’s made by women for women for the immersion of having that type of love and relationship with a man. Because even non-radicalized women have this silent acceptance that those expectations from a man are ridiculous beyond fiction. I remember a tumblr post noting that that’s why so many men hate and mock the romance genre. The idea of women expecting them to love and express love for them is foolish.

And as I’ve come to realize how men are. Even beyond blatant hatred and violence. Their depthless view of women. How they view sex. It’s just made me not really want a relationship. It’s not that I’m not attracted to them anymore and don’t desire romance but I’ve just lost interest in them. Seeing what that relationship would most likely entail on account of women I’ve seen both in real life and online makes that decision much easier. Women deserve so much more than that.

This was so long I’m sorry 😣 but anon if you’re still here I wish nothing but happiness and love in your beautiful life. Your words truly resonated with me. Still kinda wanting that ignorance to men’s hatred and violence. I think back to those times. When I could never even comprehend a man hating women to the degree I see everyday online. And that they saw us how we saw them. As people. But once you make this realization you can never really come back. I’ve tried in the past. And now I know that it’s in the best interest of myself and other women to not ignore that and live in “blissful” (if you could even call it that) ignorance.

[themotleymirage]

TLDR: My thoughts on the fanbase will they/won't they of Ame and Suvi: it's gonna be okay. Trust these wonderful storytellers, and allow space for their creativity.

Been thinking about Glass Heart, and I may be jumping directly on the sapphic bandwagon. I saw the potential for it in previous eps, but wasn't convinced that it was a direction either Suvi or Ame might actually take until Arc 2.

To be clear though: I'm not set on it. I will not be heartbroken if Suvi and Ame remain friends for the rest of their lives, because I know WWW will be a phenomenal story regardless. I'm also a person who believes platonic relationships can be/are equally as fulfulling and valuable as romantic ones. Close emotional bonds shouldn't always develop into romance. But I've been seeing the fanbase really split on whether or not they want this ship to sail, and it's really interesting to me because I think there's something to be said about authorial intent.

DnD actual plays are not like other media. There aren't OTP's as decreed by god (writers), these aren't characters whose development and choices feel inevitable. AP characters are more like real people because we give them the time to be. They're not static! They're complex and they change, and this difference is that we, the audience, get to watch them be fundamentally human in real time. In session, decisions and personality moments sometimes happen in a split second, and while the players/GM's do have time to adjust story or character direction after the cameras stop rolling, choices are frequently made in the moment.

If Suvi and Ame become more than friends, it will not be because one writer or actor overwrote past characterization or did what seemed easiest, it will be because the characters (and their players) developed into people who love each other and people who wanted to take that step. Erika and Aabria are incredible players, and everyone in WBN approaches characterization with so much thought and care. Trust them to create a beautiful story with characters that have agency in their choices.

[yourwesternsunshine]

I just read one of the first Cloud is gay posts, and I completely understand where you’re coming from. Like, so much media is queer coded and people refuse to see it that way and it hurts. And yeah, Cloud could totally be gay.

Unfortunately, I have a “but” here.

The one thing I do take issue with is taking Cloud’s grief over Zack as absolute proof of his gayness. I just think… you know, losing a best friend can be equally as traumatic as losing a lover. Like I do think queerness in media that is subtle needs to be noticed, but I also feel like we need to have space for men to love each other in not-romantic ways, and not allowing that just continually enforces the idea that men can’t be soft with each other unless it’s romantic. You know? It just… kind of takes away from the idea that a platonic relationship can be as valuable as a romantic one. And that losing that connection can be extremely traumatic. I don’t know.

Another thing— sorry, I just have a lot of thoughts— I think discounting Cloud’s attraction to women could also just add to bi-erasure. Like he brushes off a lot of attention, sure, but he’s an awkward dude that doesn’t really know how to react to people in general. But it is implied that he does feel things for women as well, and to ignore that is also to ignore a different way his queerness could present which is equally valid. He could just… Like both.

I hope this doesn’t come off as rude or anything. I just wanted to add my thoughts.

Ok I’ll start by getting it out of the way that Cloud could be bisexual or gay and i don’t really care either way because I think his relationship with the women of ff7 is far less interesting than his relationship with Zack.

I will say for certain; however, that the “can’t men just be best friends” take is irritating and has a tinge of homophobia to it (not saying this is the case here but i digress).

All signs point to Cloud being deeply deeply in love with Zack. You don’t mourn the loss of a friend by absorbing their entire psyche and all but becoming one with their spirit. Their relationship is unequivocally romantic. I can tell this because he lets his feelings for zack get in the way of developing feelings for either Aerith or Tifa.

There’s also a million other things that point to Cloud’s queerness; the hot tub scene, the constant pointing out of his explicit femininity, drag queen cloud, going on a date with barret, his ability to destroy a dance floor, etc.

I think Cloud is largely confused sexually. if we’re really being i don’t think he knows EXACTLY what he’s into, but it IS clear that in any way he loves zack so much that he all but becomes zack.

I think there’s a lot of ways to analyze his relationships with the women in his life, but i think the only way to describe his relationship with zack is as romantic.

[loki-who-remains]

My grumpy ass has seen too much attack on Sylvie after ep4 despite having proper filtering and blocked blogs and decided to write this instead of studying for my exams. I’m sorry to probably disappoint, though: I am not solely a sylki or a lokius shipper. Both exist for me and make sense to me without excluding each other.

I think one thing people kinda forget when they aggressively discard Loki’s factual, canonical relationship with either Mobius or Sylvie is that complex characters tend to have complex relationships. You can be friends with more than one person and/or you can be in love with more than one. Also, the intensity of a connection can be different depending on how long/deep people happen to know each other. It doesn’t automatically mean that one connection is more valuable than the other. Everything matters, everything affects and shapes a person’s growth.

Loki clearly fell in love with Sylvie, or more like with an expectation or an impression of her. It happened too fast, and he had no time to process if he can trust her, or what it is she wants, or is it even mutual. He just decided that he deeply cares for her and hence is devoted to her. She was a bit more perceptive and used it to her advantage. Mortal humans fall in love all the time just like him. It happens earlier or later in life, or never to some.

Sylvie and Loki are variants of the same person. Sylvie feels like a Loki from the first Thor, desperate and lonely and angry. He probably falls for her because he recognises this similarity but he doesn’t take into account that he himself already changed. But well, symbolically he learns to respect and accept himself, his past and present selves, his wrong doings, learns to analyse and grow from there into something new.

And where Sylvie rejects him, Mobius accepts him. With Mobius he learns to respect and care for others. His partnership with Mobius goes from the good old back-stabbing through betrayal and hurting each other to a deeper connection. They share thoughts and learn to understand each other’s motivations. Loki is humbled by the fact that infinity stones are paper weights but even more by the fact that he himself is essentially just a little dude who wants to have friends, to have fun and do something meaningful. His past doesn’t define him or lock him out of any other probable futures.

He learns to be a friend. It is first of all a friendship, and as it deepens they love and care for each other even more. Maybe it’s something that never worked out with Thor, to be equal and to be seen.

In season 2 Loki reevaluates his own priorities. Sylvie still matters to him but he lifts his expectations and just lets her be, tries to understand her and love her as she is. To love this way, without asking anything back, is actually a very powerful thing. It changes you. He probably sees her better now and understands too.

He puts more significance into his reciprocated connections, he learns to combine self-love with the love for others. It might be my specific perception, but I don’t think that platonic love is somehow worse or better than romantic love. They don’t cancel each other. We learn from a small age that love is this and that, and it always ends with kisses, kids and weddings, but in fact it’s not. I’m not saying that dreaming about this kind of love is wrong. I’m saying that it’s not the only possible option. If Mobius and Loki are never engaged in physical intimacy it doesn’t render their unique connection meaningless or less valuable. It is still clearly love, there’s still devotion.

What’s more, both Sylvie and Mobius understand how important it is for Loki to have that connection with the other. They don’t communicate directly that much though, and it’s really a shame.

That’s how Sylvie lashes out on Mobius and he is puzzled and upset by it. Probably she knows about his life, so she points out that protecting the timelines is not personal enough for him. She’s right though; maybe not so much about Mobius but about the TVA on the whole. Btw Loki is being part of it right now and he behaves the same way as Mobius. It’s just that Mobius is the one who is used to light things up. The moment isn’t right though, and he doesn’t read the room.

But the thing is, because it’s not personal, he’s able to stay afloat, be there in the moment and not be distracted by something out there. Mobius is aware that he might be weakened by what he sees and doesn’t want to risk the entire operation because of that. (Maybe he’s wrong and if Sylvie shows him his life he’ll be able to stay put like B-15, but again, he doesn’t want to risk)

I think that both connections being equally meaningful to Loki will make his further choices difficult and the consequences heavy. Mobius’s and Sylvie’s, and Loki’s lives could depend on that. Just imagine if he’s made to choose between them, to sacrifice one for the other. Or to experience all this love, remember all of it and look at them and see they don’t recognise him anymore on any timeline. Or have to choose to never be in their lives to save them both or hide them both from Kang.

[rappaccini]

Same guy again:

Aside from the PROFUSE cynicism, for want of a better word, evident in

A. Your… interesting… interpretation of Gwen and Miles’ interactions in ATSV (We can and will agree to disagree on that),

B. The blaming Miles for Gwen’s possible death, because she’s ’just the girlfriend’, which in-universe kind of implies that Spider-Man SHOULDN’T DATE ANYONE or, to a lesser extent, have any close relationships, even platonic or familial, out of fear of getting them killed for association with him and is literally the “It’s Not You, It’s My Enemies” trope being justified (On that note, Gwen lived in Reign 2. The outside world was fine.),

C. The belief that the characters have no free will and are merely puppets of the writers,

If you think the characters are merely puppets of the writers, then what exactly makes your writings different from those of the Spider-Verse movie writers? How can Gwen Stacy, Margo Kess, Hobie Brown, and the other Spiders carve out a destiny for themselves in your fan works when you, the writer, admit they have no free will and follow the plans of whomever holds the pen?

a) 👍 i've hated this ship for ten years. it's not gonna change now.

b) nope! like i said before, it depends on the character and the situation. for some characters, a relationship with peter/miles/spider-man is a positive thing. for others, like gwen, it simply is not.

out of universe, the writers won't let gwen be their equal and see her as a device for manpain or gratification because they're being sexist and because miles and peter are more valuable to marvel, and therefore will get the preferential treatment. the in-universe explanation is whatever the writers make the characters/world do to justify that intent. which so far has been a reflection of the irl sexism: the marvel universe, like ours, is a heteronormative patriarchy. and like ours, some women are more willing or able to navigate that world, or are given greater freedoms and better treatment by it. gwen is not one of them. miles and peter can date and get a girlfriend and have a happy ending with a romantic partner, it just won't be gwen.

spider-gwen's creation and popularity are an indictment of that treatment: ''you had decades to bring her back and give her agency, and do better. you wouldn't, so now you don't get to play with that toy anymore. we're giving her to someone else who might treat her better. she's not your power fantasy anymore, she's your daughter's.'' the status quo hasn't changed, but her role in it has: gwen isn't trying to exist within that world anymore, she's trying to escape it.

if anything, the response ("oh yeah? let's have her make out with miles!") proved that they still haven't learned anything because they didn't bother changing the system and immediately tried to walk back her empowerment and coming-out narrative so a straight guy can still benefit. the relationship is inherently poisoned because that writers' intent is always going to seep into whatever in-universe intent they come up with. miles and peter can have a happy ending with their girlfriend. it just won't be gwen, because gwen can't date straight guys anymore.

(and sure. gwen lived by the end of reign 2. doesn't change that miles ignored her wishes to keep the family together, flew off to be a hero and left her and their daughter to die, and immediately replaced them with a new family after he thought they were dead.)

c) it's not a belief that characters are fictional, it's a fact. they are made up by a person to tell a story, who controls all their movements and feelings to make that story happen. part of the storytelling process is that the audience agrees to buy into the in-universe explanation to keep up the illusion of the story. you let your imagination help you ignore that the puppets have strings so you can enjoy the show (but if the writing gets choppy/the strings get tangled, your immersion is broken and you suddenly notice them again). once the show's over, you don't have to acknowledge the man behind the curtain, but come on, you know those puppets weren't dancing on their own.

and even in meta stories, about characters reacting to the fact that they're in stories, the writer still controls them, which means the story is ultimately about how the writer views the story.

yes, the characters in the fanfic i wrote were controlled by me, because that's how writing works. what makes my writing different from someone else's is that it's mine, and my intentions are my own. the differences between me and the sv writers specifically are:

the sv writers want to tell a story that subverts expectations about certain types of people... but they also want the assimilationist hero gets the girl romance so bad that they're willing to cherrypick what to subvert, which leaves certain harmful tropes standing. i don't want that, so i'm willing to carry the subversions through to their full conclusions: no, we're not going to half-ass gwen's story so miles can date her, even for a little bit. no, margo isn't going to be sidelined as the supportive bestie after sparking jealousy in the main couple. no, hobie isn't going to be chill about having his relationship and his narrative handed to a more general-audience-friendly character. and no, we're not gonna pretend that miles isn't corruptible by the society.

the sv writers took so long writing atsv that by the time it came out the canon and the environment in which it's created and received that atsv wants to make a statement about had massively changed. atsv's meta is five years behind the conversations it wants to join. like, they took so long to make gwiles the movie that in the meantime, gwen nearly made it out of the closet; saying "you know what she really needs? the right boyfriend to fix her" isn't subversive, it's laughable and borderline offensive. i'm writing about the movies themselves, and the environment in which they exist right now. and i can be more current because i don't have to wait for it to be animated.

the movies can't "break canon" because the medium itself will not allow it; these movies aren't just canon, they're the most influential canon there is, that lots of later canon will draw inspiration from, because that's how comic book ip storytelling works. if miles and gwen become a couple during the story, they can't break canon because they BECAME canon. they're not breaking canon, they're only changing it to make it better for miles (and not gwen). fanfic isn't canon, therefore characters can be used to do anything with no corporate limitations. it's as close to characters breaking script and doing what they want as fiction can get.

[rabbithaver]

Woah that's cool ^^ like genuinely it's really cool that you and Sean can be friends after having a relationship and I think it's also awesome that you're comfortable in it 👍👍

tbf I'm still trying to figure out if I am on the asexual spectrum and what to do

tbh it helps a lot that neither of us view romance as 'more than' platonic friendship, if that makes sense. both of us see platonic connections as equally valuable to romantic ones, so in our eyes, it wasn't really a "demotion," it was just an adjustment of terminology. i still love him to death platonically and i always will. :)

also, when it comes to discovering yourself, just be patient and kind, and keep in mind that labels don't really come with 'rules.' have fun while exploring your own identity, and remember that at the end of the day, the words you connect with are tools, not boxes you have to fit into 100%.

[mizunosuzuka]

Okay, so I've been having some brain worms/thoughts about Shadowbringers/Endwalker Emet-Selch, Warrior of Light, and lastly, Azem that keep me up at night and I'd like to just theory-craft/spew these thoughts before they take over my brain.

BEAR IN MIND THERE WILL BE SPOILERS PAST THIS POINT!!

Alrighty so, during Endwalker's Elpis questline, the WoL is initially teleported into the hub/entrance to Elpis, and is transparent , unable to be seen by those around them, nor are they able to interact with anything in their environment, and all seems pretty hopeless until a pleasantly familiar voice reaches their auditory sensors and lo and behold, the younger, far less theatrical Emet-Selch and their old-new friend Hythlodaeus have arrived to Elpis to conduct their business, and who is the first one to glance in their direction, obviously noticing the WoL despite how small and transparent they seem to be?

Emet-Selch. The WoL is perceived in these cutscenes, at least from my perspective, as being both shocked and very aware of the presence of this man, who, by all accounts, looks identical face wise to the Emet-Selch they are familiar with. Younger, less jaded and maniacal, sure.

And he notices the WoL almost immediately.

Now where the brain worms begin... Or continue. Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus can "see" the color of the soul, perceiving it in a way that allows them to uniquely pick out different people based off their soul alone, rather than their physical appearance, something that the people of present day Eitherys are unable to do.

Because of Amaurot's policy against individualism whilst about in public spaces, most Amaurotian are regarded by their job or station, with little that defines them from the next, save from the Convocation, all of whom are recommended for their office by a prior seat., Thusly, their people avoid conflict, as they are all found to be essential, and on equal footing.

Except... For those that have the soul sight.

It's considered a valuable gift even in Ancient times, and while Hades imparts that his is inferior to Hythlodaeus, whom he feels should have taken the seat of Emet-Selch, he yet still is able even while focused on other tasking and conversation, to immediately take note of the thin speck of a soul that is, by all accounts, identical to Azem's. (Because they are, in fact, an 8 times rejoined Azem)

This sets up for the inevitable question of, exactly how close is Emet-Selch to Azem? How intimate a relationship must they have (and not necessarily in a sexual way, this can be kindred spirits, familial, platonic, or romantic, however you feel to justify it) that his peripheral senses caught onto the Warrior of Light before Hythlodaeus had a moment to push Emet-Selch into slipping them some aether. Because I don't know about you, but when I'm out and about I don't always take full stock of everything, unless something or someone feels or looks familiar to me, in which I might do a double take, but this man straight up ZEROEs in on the WoL and you have to think... Was he expecting Azem? Was he hoping for Azem?

Now, let's dissect this from another standpoint.

When first it's spoken about the WoL's soul on the first Emet-Selch has just finished observing them just after Ryne's (then Minfilia) rescue and subsequent escape from Ranjit and from Eulmore. He notes its curious quality from afar and states that it may be of use after all. At this point in Emet-Selch's very extensive life, he's already experienced the Final Days, then the destruction of Amaurot, lost one of his best friends, as well as was [betrayed/left] by his other best friend, who was then sundered before they could even attempt to reconcile. Additionally, he has witnessed the fall of man and been tempered by a God beyond that of which we have any understanding of to this point, because it's a creation of and manifestation of the very "Will of the Star", whose heart is literally his youngest, and most innocent(to a degree that we understand) coworkers.

In other words, he is in the full throes of trauma, depression, and the hopeless burden of a life led too long.

Now, I believe somewhere in the questline, Emet-Selch reveals that once his duty is complete, his plan was to return to the star. This insinuates that, upon reviving all those lost and sundered, bringing everyone back that had been sacrificed etc, he would seek to end his life, despite finally having those he loved returned to him. The true burden of grief indeed. But I think, that he realizes that the man he has become, what he has done to bring back his people, the ones he cared about? No longer has a place in ancient society. A peaceful society, that by all accounts abhorred crass terminology such as death and disapproved of violence and hurtfulness, instead focusing on healthy debate and being "stewards of the Star". But Emet-Selch here, he has been warped by millennia of despair, by the aching of his heart, of Zodiark, who has been a voice in his ear so long it may as well be an extension of himself. He's endured so much loss, so many horrors, that he cannot conceive of that peaceful place anymore where he can peacefully coexist. He cannot resolve a place in his perfect society for himself any longer, and I think deep in his heart, it may even be shame for the deeds he had to commit. Despite his repeated attempts at degrading the Scions for their existence, calling the residents of this first "half-men" and denoting that he doesn't see any of them as "truly alive", this comes into question when the Scions and the WoL arrive in Amaurot, and the shades do not call them familiars, or wonder what type of creatures they are.

No, they are called children. They are the precious lifeblood of Amaurot. They are the innocent, the curious, the lives that must be taught and protected.

And who made this version of Amaurot?

Emet-Selch.

Now by this point you might be wondering, Suzuka, what do you mean, that's super irrelevant, Emet-Selch merely created Amaurot to be as it was in the final days, the only distinction being Hythlodaeus. And I would offer you this.

So why would this not present the same in Emet-Selch's recreation of Amaurot? Unless... Unless he knew. Unless he felt it, deep down in his own soul, after so very long, that they were his people. Broken they may be, small, and far thinner in the aether than before, but they were trying, and actively pursuing the strengths that his people once embodied.

When the WoL is in Elpis, what is everyone's immediate assumption? That they are a familiar. A non-human entity, something of the arcane, not alive, not truly, and merely a representation of their creator's imagination, knowledge, and creativity.

Which brings me to my final point, and I thank you for even reading this far because my brain has been so warped by this it runs around in my brain rent free.

Emet-Selch of ShB timeline would not have been able to allow himself to try and be with a restored Azem of his time. Azem's innocence and attachment to the people, their care, their mischievousness, their tenacity, Emet-Selch himself was too broken to reconcile with the though of that. If you are an EmetWoL shipper like myself, then you've probably approached their dynamic like this once or twice before, even if you never wrote it down, or drew it up; that only the WoL in their only seven/right times rejoined self, could possibly understand or even think to care for him with all that he has done. Because they have done things too, no? Killed hundreds, or perhaps thousands in war for freedom, watched their loved ones perish before them. Lost friends, family, perhaps even tasted death themselves. Yet, they are not alone, as he feels he is. As in reality, he is, before WoL strikes him through the chest with the axe of Light. And the only one who might even have the most basic of understanding as to why he is the way he is, is the Warrior of Light. The same soul that he saw that day in Elpis and thought was his friend, his love.

Even for just a moment.

TL;DR Emet-Selch of ShB and the WoL are meant for each other and there's a reason that crotchety old man loves them see essay above lol

[enigma731]

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm willing to bet many others are like me where I hope Gamora at least gets a chance to regain all of the exact relationships and growth she had before she died, primarily because all of it was ripped away solely due to her abuser being allowed to reduce her back into nothing but a tool for his own personal gain when he murdered her. If she had died in battle, willingly given up her life or maybe if she hadn't died completely alone and devastated I wouldn't care as much about the specifics. But there is something upsetting to me about Thanos being allowed to have this much control on the trajectory of her life not just once when he took her as a child, or twice when he murdered her, but now three times by dragging her to the future before she could meet the guardians the way she was meant to. There's also the fact that even in the moment of her death he got to take ownership of her soul and trade it to do the very actions Gamora fought so hard to prevent. So I hope she gets to be sisters again with Nebula the way they were before. In a relationship with Peter again the way they were before. Family and friends with Rocket, Drax and Mantis and a mother figure to Groot again. I want her to be a guardian again too. I don't see any of these relationships being more or less important whether platonic or romantic. It's all equal to her in the the purpose and personhood she had found over 4 years. Heck I hope she gets back her favorite clothes, hair products and anything else that was part of the life she built outside of being an abuse victim. Her future selfs soul being ressurected and becoming part of her would also be wonderful in my humble opinion. If all of that doesn't happen of course it won't be the end of the world but it will definitely still be the result of her abusers actions and I don't think his actions need to be left standing. If I'm being totally honest I dont want them to be left standing. Of course I also would have preferred she and Nebula got to stab Thanos and chop his head off while Drax set him on fire and we avoided this whole mess in the first place, so maybe my hopes are too high where the guardians are concerned. Given the vol 3 trailers have shown a very busy film with a lot of things that need to be worked out for Rocket and more than a handful of other characters besides Gamora I think we will be lucky if she has a close acquaintance with everyone let alone friendship or a romance or feeling they are family. But if by some miracle she gets it all back I hope she, Nebula, Peter and all the other guardians have the biggest celebration and dance on Thanos's grave while the zune pumps out awesome tunes.

I mean...yes, but also I need people to recognize that platonic love matters just because it's true. Not just because of overcoming trauma, not just because those are relationships that she had and lost, but just because.

Platonic relationships are so valuable in real life, but we undervalue them. And we so often fail to root for them at all in fandom.

[survey--s]

517.

Are you bothered by your cosmic insignificance? Actually, I find it quite reassuring that my actions aren’t really that significant. I think I’d feel too much pressure otherwise.

Do you mourn for a place or person you’ve never known? No.

Do you really think there is somebody for everybody? No. It’s a nice idea but I don’t think the world works like that.

Do you place any value in gender roles? Well, it depends what you mean by gender roles. I don’t think we do ourselves any favours by trying to pretend that men and women aren’t biologically different in some ways.

Do you have to be related to be family? No.

Are your platonic relationships just as valuable as romantic or family ones? I don’t really have any platonic friendships, but theoretically yes, sure.

Are you in love? Do you want to be? Yes.

Do you think you can put love into categories (family, platonic, romantic, etc.) or is it just one general sensation? I don’t really understand why you’d want to categorise an emotion like that.

Would you be happy with a life without romance? Yeah, romance isn’t a huge deal to me.

Are you always going to be a little in love with somebody? How can anyone possibly answer that for certain?

Would you change your appearance if you could? Yeah, a few parts of it.

Do you have the feeling you’ve lost something you might have had in another life - whether it be a person, a place, a world, a language, etc.? No.

Do you believe in reincarnation? No. 

Would you want to be reincarnated? If I could choose what I was reincarnated as, sure.

Do you think you’re special, or just another person amongst billions? Can you be both? I think everyone is special in that they’re unique, but we’re still just very small fish in a very, very large pond.

Do theoretical ethical debates have any value? Is it important people discuss ethical dilemmas, e.g. the trolley problem? I mean, I guess they do to an extent, but they’re not for me.

Did you have imaginary friends? Do you still have them? I did as a little kid, sure. I don’t as an adult.

Are you religious? Do you think your religion is ‘correct’? No.

If you aren’t religious, do you wish you were? Why? I mean, if I wanted to join a religion, I could. I have zero interest in it though as it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Do you want a grand adventure? Not really - it sounds like a lot of effort lol.

Do you have somebody, whether it be a friend or stranger, who you think you could have loved if the circumstances were different? It’s not really something I’ve ever thought about.

Do you think you really understand your gender and sexuality? I don’t really think that there’s anything to understand.

How fluid is your concept of gender and sexuality? I mean, I don’t understand the whole idea of people thinking they can change sex. You can’t change your biology - I know that’s a hugely unpopular view these days though so I don’t tend to talk about it real life much. I mean, I have no issues with people wanting to have surgery to remove their genitals or whatever - you do you - but getting your penis removed doesn’t make you a woman - it makes you a man without a penis, lol. In terms of sexuality, people can be attracted to whoever they like as long as they’re not causing any harm.

What’s the most life-changing choice you’ve made so far? Choosing to move up to Cumbria.

Are you afraid of growing old? Old age doesn’t scare me, but getting dementia or something does.

Would you want to live forever? How about for a billion years, a million, a millennium, a century? Not forever, but a century or so would be pretty cool.

Do you believe in some form of god/s? No.

Are your choices fated or of your own free will? Hmm, I don’t believe in fate but equally I don’t think anyone has true free will as we’re all restricted by the society we live in in some ways.

Do you have a hunch about how you’re going to die? No.

Do you believe in star signs? No.

How old do you have to be to be considered an adult? Well, in the UK you become an adult at eighteen.

Was your childhood happy? My young childhood was, yes. My teenage years were a bit of a rollercoaster though.

What are you missing from your life? Money lol.

Have you ever met someone who had a very similar personality to your own? Did you get along? Yeah, generally we got along fine.

Do opposites attract? In some ways, yes.

Is your life what you expected it would be five years ago? Nope. I had absolutely no idea this is how my life would turn out but I’m really grateful that it HAS turned out like this.

Do you know what you want out of life? I just want to be happy.

What makes a person ‘good’? Are you a ‘good person’? I don’t think there’s any one definition of being a good person.

What fundamentally matters to you? Happiness, loyalty, honesty.

Is freewill an illusion? Yes, definitely. Like, we’re hugely influenced by how we’re raised and the society that we live in - plus we can’t just do whatever we want without considering the impact - so we’re restricted by money and time and other people etc.

Do you create art? How do you define art? No.

How often do you lie? Is all lying inherently bad? Are you generally truthful? I don’t really pay attention to that kind of thing but I’m not someone who thinks lying is some kind of moral failure, necessarily.

Do you want to be remembered after your death? What for? I don’t really care about how I’m remembered - I mean, I’ll be dead, I’ll have absolutely no idea what people think or say about me.

Is true world peace ever possible? No.

Do you have to suffer to truly understand the human condition? What is the human condition? How can you really experience it? Bleh.

Are you free? Will you ever be? Can anyone be truly free? I’m as free as I feel I can be within the confines of society. I run my own business so I can pick my hours and my clients. I don’t have children so I’m not restricted in that sense either.

Do you hold yourself to higher standards than you hold others? Sometimes.

What do you expect from a friend or partner? Honesty, loyalty, hard work, support.

What question could you ask to find out the most about a person? That depends on the person.

Do you justify all your beliefs or have you just inherited/absorbed some? I really don’t feel like I need to justify any of my beliefs.

Which beliefs do you have that is most likely to be wrong? If I felt like they were wrong, I wouldn’t believe them?

Can humans really understand the complete nature of the universe, space and time? I don’t really think anyone can.

Is a consciousness what makes someone a person? No. Otherwise you’re implying that someone in a coma is no longer a person?

What do you think about artificial intelligence? It’s really interesting to me, but I totally get why it freaks people out.

Do you thinks humans are obsessed with escapism (books, video games, movies, etc.)? Are you looking for an escape? Do you think that’s a bad thing? I don’t think we’re obsessed as such, but I can totally understand why people find it so interesting and fascinating. I think it only becomes a bad thing when it starts interfering with your relationships and your job, etc.

Are we eventually going to ‘run out’ of new combinations for music, art, language, etc.? Is there a limit to human creativity? No, I don’t think so, because society is always changing and we’re always discovering new things.

What do you think the next era of music will be like? Who knows.

What do you think the next era of fashion will be like? ....

Do we live in tumultuous times, or do they just seem so strange because we’re living in them? I still find it really weird that we’ve lived through global lockdowns and a pandemic - like, I remember learning about the plague at school and thinking how scary it must be, but in real life it just felt so normal, lol. Now it all feels like some kind of weird fever dream.

Would you want to meet a clone of yourself? Would you like them? I’d like to meet them, but I’m not sure if I’d like them.

How confident are you, really? I’m very confident on my own, but not so much around other people.

How consistent is your perception of time? I mean, consistent enough, I guess.

What age should people be allowed to vote? Should children and teenagers be allowed to vote? I think eighteen is fine.

How do you feel about the idea ‘an eye for an eye’? I don’t agree with it.

What’s the worse thing a person can be? I don’t know - probably some kind of child or animal torturer.

How do you feel about monogamy? I don’t really have an opinion - I mean, as long as everyone is happy, I don’t feel as though it’s any of my business.

Can you be in love with someone and still fall in love with someone else? Sure, I don’t see why love has to be restricted to just one person.

What’s the tragedy of your life? What a bizarre way of viewing things.

Would your life make a good play? I think it would be pretty boring lol.

Should people be prosecuted for crimes that weren’t considered crimes at the time? No. You can’t retrospectively lock people up for stuff that was legal - that’s batshittery in the extreme.

Would you fight for your country? Do you feel a sense of loyalty to your nation? No and no.

Do you believe in gender equality in every aspect? Well, it’s not possible for men and women to be truly equal - that’s just basic science.

Do we have a moral obligation to care for others? To what extent? Hmm, I think we have an obligation to be polite to people.

Do you crave approval and/or praise? I wouldn’t say I crave it, but I do enjoy it.

Is there comedy in all tragedy and tragedy in all comedy? Yeah, I suppose so.

Are you ever going to be satisfied? I am satisfied.

When you are sad, do you listen to music that conveys your emotions or music that makes you happy? It depends whether I’m in the mood to wallow or whether I need to get out of whatever funk I’m in lol.

Is your music organised by mood or sensation or do you just listen to everything at any time? It’s kind of organised by mood, I guess. Like, when I’m making playlists, I’ll pick one song then add songs that Spotify suggests and that I like.

Would you marry a friend if they needed you to (e.g. for citizenship)? Hypothetically I might do, sure.

Are you a deep person? I don’t think I’m any more/less deep than anyone else?

Given the chance to live your life on Mars, with no hope of returning to Earth but with the promise of scientific discovery and glory, would you take it? No.

Are you who people think you are? I don’t know what people think I am.

Do you think you would be happier if you had been born a different gender, sexuality, race, ethnicity, nationality or religion? I have no idea. Nobody can say that for certain either way.

What’s your toxic trait? Are you trying to improve yourself and fix it? I don’t really know.

Do you anger easily? I don’t really get angry, but I am easily irritated.

Are you a jealous person? Not really.

If you lost all your memories, would you have the same personality? No.

Given the chance to reset your life (with none of the knowledge you currently have), would you take it? Nope.

Is hate as strong as love? Who do you hate? I don’t hate anyone.

Do you speak multiple languages? Which do you dream in? What language would you want to learn? I speak two, but I always dream in England. I’d love to improve my Italian.

Do you draw meaning from your dreams, or do you disregard them? No.

How would you describe yourself when you love? Do you love forcefully, unconditionally, gently, quietly, desperately? Quietly.

Is unrequited love real love? Sure.

Is your perception of yourself similar or the same to how others perceive you? I have absolutely no idea.

Are you overly analytical? I can be.

Do you ever feel that you are really a terrible person, and only act good out of societal or some other obligation? No.

Do you believe in magic? Are you superstitious? No and no.

What belief do you have that isn’t logically grounded, but you still firmly believe in? I can’t really think of anything that’s particularly illogical.

[rustedr0t]

being on my period means i have very low hopes for the new year, i don't really follow this being the new year so i guess it doesn't matter that much but most people follow this one so it kinda does. i feel unconvinced that i'll make any improvement this year and i feel quite bad about myself at the moment. i feel that i'll always be a failure and that i'm doomed and that i will always have more downs than ups. i like to call myself a good person because of how much i care about people, the love and loyalty i have to my friends, the donations i make, the compliments i give, the time and mental energy i spend to help others, the intense empathy i have for everyone i encounter - but then i remember i'm actually garbage. that intense empathy goes away the second someone gives me attitude and gives me the feeling they think they're better than me. the love and loyalty i have to my friends is coupled with a deep acidic jealousy if they spend too much time with other people instead of me or are closer to other people than me, especially if they get an s/o and i feel like i'm being tossed aside and regarded as less important than the romantic relationship because i think i have a lower capacity for romantic love than most and i regard platonic love as equally if not more valuable, so i'm deeply hurt and feel betrayed when people show the opposite sentiment. i'm a terrible girlfriend who has stayed in a relationship with someone who has always been too good for me for years because i'm too selfish to break up with him. i invade the privacy of those around me through extensive cyberstalking. i wish i was better but am not willing to put in the energy to change. and yet i crave sympathy from those around me, i mentally scream my pain and mental illness at everyone in the hopes for an apology from the world and from society. despite feeling shame for the terrible things i do and think i simultaneously still regard myself as morally better than almost everyone around me. i feel like i'll never be truly okay

[tangents-within-tangents]

Hi, demiro ace here to learn more about apl! If I may?

I'm kinda thinking it might be best for everyone if we don't consider apl apart of the aspec community (which is historically/currently defined as both the aro and ace spectrums only). If the umbrella gets too big it's not really helpful anymore. I definitely get how they are related with similar concepts of not experiencing a certain type of attraction, but they are also complete opposites, no? And while there are those who identify as both aro/ace and apl, these spectrums don't actually overlap like the aro and ace ones do (which is why it is helpful to talk about them together under the aspec). Like that overlap is more akin to someone who also identifies as bi or trans and apl, it's an additional identity that doesn't really have anything to do with the other, a venn diagram not a connected spectrum.

Trans identities are about gender, lesbian/gay/bi/pan/etc are about who you experience sexual/romantic attraction to, and aro/ace are about how you (do or don't) experience that attraction. But aplatonic is about friendship, about how you relate to people outside of relationships. It's not a romantic or sexual spectrum so it has as much to do with aro/ace as it does with Lgbt-etc and vice versa, right? I just feel like it would be better to view aplatonic as a separate valid thing.

Like if it sucks and feels unwelcoming to you, maybe sometimes that just means it's not the right place for you, not that the place needs to change. And I'm not saying apl-phobia is okay and we shouldn't strive to be better (esp with acknowledging the overlap), but if you are mad at the 'values platonic relationships more than romantic and/or sexual ones' community for doing just that, that's kinda aro/ace-phobic.

yea sure to YOU sexual/romantic relationships don't mean anything/are devalued/etc, but not to all of us!!

Yeah we know, it's like that with all allos in the Lgbtq+ community! What do you want asexual/aromantic people to do about that? I could say the exact same thing, "sure to YOU platonic relationships don't mean anything/are devalued, but not to all of us." We shouldn't have to make caveats in all our posts for people who are allo-romantic/sexual when that's not what we're here to talk about no more than you should have to for people who are allo-platonic. It's just counterproductive.

That's kinda like a lesbian complaining about how all gays ever talk about is how hot guys are. Where those communities do relate is in experiencing same-sex attraction (the same way ours relate in experiencing a lack of a certain attraction) and even though they may technically overlap with people who are bi/pan (like we may with people who are on both spectrums) they are still quite different and therefore considered separate groups while still being included together under the wider umbrella of queer/Lgbtqia+

I think it's clear we would benefit from a similar distinction, and I'm curious to hear what others think about this. Like maybe 'anattractional' spectrum instead can be about anything with an a- prefix referring to a lack of an attraction (the same way Lgbp can be lumped together under homosexual or SSA), while 'aspec' can still refer to just the aro/ace spectrum.

(Also, I get the frustrations with relationship hierarchies, but I just want to clarify: when alloplatonic aro/ace's say we value platonic relationships more, we mean for us. We're saying that sexual/romantic relationships are less valuable to us (esp bc that is not reflected in an amatonormative society) not that they can't/shouldn't be valuable to anyone who is allo. When we speak out against amatonormativity, it's that we want platonic relationships to be seen on the same level of value as romantic relationships in society as a whole (the same way that feminism is about equality for women, not bringing them above men). Amatonormativity and platonormativity are mutually exclusive, getting rid of one doesn't mean replacing it with the other (especially since both currently exist). The normativity is the problem, we aren't speaking against the people who happen to conform with it but those who want to enforce it. It's about the mindsets and how they are exclusionary for those who don't conform.)

being apl in aspec communties sucks sm. everything is all about how important platonic relationships are and "dismantling relationship heirarchies", while just building new ones. it feels super unwelcoming.

like yea sure to YOU sexual/romantic relationships don't mean anything/are devalued/etc, but not to all of us!! some of us LIKE those things, and MORE than platonic relationships. its like we rnt even aspec at all 2 these people, like sorry some of us go against the grain of society while still having certain ""non queer"" parts to our identity. i feel like we are seen as not aspec/lgbt enough to participate in those communities. so much about the aspec communtity is about how untalked about we are and how we are never included or thought about in discussions, but aro and ace communtities do the same to us!!!

.