#i blame the new52

[strawberrytalia]

alright i’m feeling bitchy since i’m looking at anti fanon posts, so im gonna say:

a lot of people give tim way more importance to jason’s life and mission than he actually carries.

jason hates what tim represents, he hates that the title of robin was passed down because to him, that means time never stopped, that means bruce never stopped, and that means bruce didn’t care enough.

but tim as a person?? isn’t even really part of the equation. yes, jason might feel resentment and annoyance towards him, but some of you think tim is the root of his anger and grief, when he’s not. tim wasn’t the person who was supposed to love him and fight for him. tim has no obligation really to care about jason’s feelings, and time and time again, he’s proven that he doesn’t.

[leoruby-draws]

Back to back to back comics, last time I swear lol!

The Batfam and their relationship to money (or more specifically Bruce's money). Or at least a more goofy, parody interpretation of it. Bruce is more lenient (wimpy almost I feel) here, in this au, bit more likely to spoil the kids for comedic effect. His money seems endless and he's never been afraid to spend money to help whoever needs it. Well the kids need it!! For roblox and cool bikes!!

For Dick tho, he tries not to relies on Bruce for money and strives to be independent. I based his attitude on his outsiders appearance, where he got pissed that Bruce was funding his team without his knowledge. I do understand Dick's position on this, since Bruce can be a control freak despite how generous he can be.

Barbara has always been more independent from Bruce, and I think in the new52 she even has her own company to fund herself? (Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't read her new52 book). She has no interest in money from Bruce at all. She's smart and resourceful enough to become a millionaire herself honestly.

Cass being 'raised' outside society, doesn't seem to care whether or not she has money. She'll grab a club sandwich outta a dumpster then eat all of Bruce's most expensive caviar's and truffles. At the same time, no concern whatsoever. Bruce likes to spoil her regardless.

Jason being from a very poor background is absolutely ecstatic to have a billionaire for a dad and will spend to his hearts content. Bruce is happy to make Jason happy, but wishes Jason would stop buying expensive bikes (and crashing them). Interestingly I noticed in the comics, Jason himself likes to hand out money to friends in need as well. Like father like son.

Steph has a better relationship to Bruce than in canon, so here she likes to scam some cash from Bruce whenever she can, cuz why not? Bruce doesn't mind helping her and her mom out, its harmless really. Tim is rich himself, and a bit oblivious to Steph's lower class problems. Perhaps she'll try scamming Tim next lol.

Damian has a rich parents on both sides of the family, both Bruce and Talia have a bit of a competition on spoiling him. Can't blame them, he's just too much of a cutie-pie. Tho they're working on trying not to over do it. Talia likes to spoil Jason as well, they have a pretty friendly relationship in this au.

Didn't have enough room for Duke, so he gets a half-page to himself. The fully functional mini-batmobile is from this drawing from way back. Looks like Duke is learning to get as much outta Bruce as he can, seems Bruce is more generous the younger his sidekicks are. Case in point here:

Jason and Cass should be older here, as Robin and Batgirl, since Dick is Nightwing here (as per my personal timeline). But this gag works better when they're little and cute. Bruce just can't resist their cuteness here.

That was a lot, hope you like this!

[sasheneskywalker]

jason todd meta list

Jason Todd's canon ages, with sources

by InDarknessOftFindI

Jason Todd and Comic Book Morality

by clinicalmiddlechildsyndrome

Jason Todd, The Hysteric & Bruce Wayne, The Batman

by aresianrepose

Jason's point isn't about whether or not villains can be redeemed, it's about the people they continue to kill

by its-not-lookin-good, de-vespertiliones

Who's to blame? How Jason Todd is blamed for his own demise (Part II)

by fuckyeahjasontodd

unjust world

by lemontongues

a son asking his dad to prove that he loves him by avenging him

by blueteehood

jason todd as a meta character

by brionysea

jason values “the good guys”

by cleromancy

Why Jason and Cass wouldn’t get along

by aingeal98, tumblingxelian

Jason and Cass: Murder Victim and Murderer

by casscainmainly

Cassandra Cain and Jason Todd Are Foils to One Another.

by celestialdevils

The Pit’s influence on Jason has nothing to do with anger and is more about blunting his compassion

by bitimdrake

the debate between Jason and Bruce’s killing/no-killing rule is so fucking exhausting because they’re both right and that’s the damn point

by wanderintofics

Willis and Catherine

by firefrightfic

The Jason Todd Book Club

by pluckyredhead

Jason and his reaction to sexual assault

by pluckyredhead

the issue posed in “The Diplomat’s Son” is that Bruce questioned whether Garzonas fell or was pushed and doubted Jason’s word when Jason said he fell

by fantastic-nonsense

Post-Crisis!Jason had exactly two life goals as Red Hood: make Batman’s life a living hell by creating chaos and prove he’s “better” at crimefighting than Bruce

by fantastic-nonsense

how long was jason dead for / how long before came back to gotham

by sohotthateveryonedied

timeline of Jason coming back to Gotham

by sohotthateveryonedied

Jason being good with kids

by sohotthateveryonedied

Too Dangerous for Kids

by redhoodinternaldialectical

Jason and Bruce’s conflict is not a misunderstanding

by redhoodinternaldialectical

outward expressions of emotions

by aalghul

Jason and guns

by aalghul

Jason Todd’s Childhood Friends

by aalghul

Jason Todd- DC's Pandora's box

by mintacle

"utilitarian killing vs. no kill rule" dilemma

by mintacle

Bruce-as-Batman Vs Bruce-as-parent, Batman is the abuser and Bruce is the enabler

by mintacle

Jason’s final monologue in Under the Red Hood is so impactful and important because he’s being honest

by littledead-ridinghood

Bruce, Jason, upbringing and ethics

by cainware, littledead-ridinghood

Bruce, Jason and Robin retcons

by littledead-ridinghood

Jason grew up alone

by littledead-ridinghood

in the New52 the reason why Bruce doesn’t take Jason down personally has either changed or expanded

by comic-commentary

do you think jason pushed felipe?

by comic-commentary

What does Jason want to do with his life?

by comic-commentary

does jason carefully select/thoroughly research the criminals he kills, or is it just on sight?

by comic-commentary

Jason Todd and the Ladies: Pre-Resurrection

by comic-commentary

Jason Todd and the Ladies: Post-Resurrection

by comic-commentary

Jason and Tim in Pre52

by comic-commentary

Dick and Jason were never close in canon

by comic-commentary

Gray Areas Exist *throws glitter*

by comic-commentary

Jason consistently positions himself with the other victims of the Joker

by arkhamnyanight

canon shows Jason being remarkably, and I would say to some degree irrationally, eager to be on good terms with Bruce again

by arkhamnyanight

Jason’s motivations and plan in UTRH

by arkhamnyanight

why Jason chooses to confront Bruce rather than directly kill the Joker

by arkhamnyanight

call Jason a murder victim you cowards

by romanticizingmurder

the sanctity of life

by romanticizingmurder

What Jason says and what Jason does aren't always the same

by romanticizingmurder

how many people will die waiting for a villain to reform?

by romanticizingmurder

Countdown and Jason’s characterization

by yvtro

the brilliance of jay's progression in countdown

by boyfridged

bruce is projecting on jason and it profoundly affected jay

by boyfridged

Jason, Willis, and retcons

by boyfridged

Jason and reaching out

by boyfridged

Jason Todd trusts Dick Grayson, and so Dick is a glowing, ticking timebomb

by thecruellestmonth

Does the mass-murdering criminal Jason "Red Hood" Todd canonically support the death penalty?

by thecruellestmonth

Jason Todd + cops

by thecruellestmonth

Jason Todd + literature

by thecruellestmonth

Jason Todd vs. security

by thecruellestmonth

quick and dirty guide to Jason Todd in the masterpiece Batman: Battle for the Cowl—canon and fanon

by thecruellestmonth

Jason Todd’s knife skills

by wonderwondered

Jason Todd’s less known skills appreciation

by wonderwondered

Jason Todd’s fighting skills

by wonderwondered

Jason is a victim, not a survivor

by greylittlebird, vintagerobin. thecruellestmoth

[I will be updating the list every time I find a new meta post.]

[havendance]

My headcanon for what happens to the Birds of Prey in a universe where Flashpoint didn't happen, is that, having faked Oracle's death, Barbara proceeds to come up with a bunch of new aliases and also rearranges the birds so that she now has multiple specialized teams each made up of 1-2 people who know that Oracle's alive and masterminding everything and new recruits who don't.

Dinah gets sent undercover to round up her new52 Birds of Prey team. With Katana (aimless from the recently disbanded Outsiders presumably (sorry, I don't read a ton of Outsiders comics)) as backup, they bring in new recruits Starling and Poison Ivy in one of Barbara's more reform minded measures. Later, after the court of owls stuff, she also gets saddled with Strix.

Helena is in charge of forming a more Gotham-focused team with the Question and Manhunter to take on corruption.

Zinda is sent to pull on some of Barbara's old suicide squad contacts--specifically Vixen and Nightshade to form a team that does international espionage type things under cover of Vixen traveling for her modeling/fashion career. It might also be interesting for Barbara to pull on her ties to Batman inc to supplement their different missions.

I will be honest, I don't know what to do with Hawk and Dove.

Anyway, this goes on for a while with Barbara keep trying to do more and more and have operatives doing more and more at once. The building subplot is that everyone's worried that she's overextending herself. It all culminates after Damian's death, when Barbara blames herself for being too busy trying to everything that she missed what was going on with Leviathan and was unable to stop Damian's death. She ends up paring down and refocusing the Birds back into a small set of operatives again.

Of course, it's not long after that that Helena quits the team without giving a reason when Checkmate pulls the old strings they have on her to get her undercover in Spyral, and Barbara has to adjust once again. (Do I think that Helena would get dragged into Checkmate in a universe where she as firmly ensconced in the Birds of Prey and not a dangling thread King and Seeley could tug on? Probably not, but this is my headcanon and there's a secret good version of Helena in Sypral that lives in my head (and will doubtless be dashed against the rocks when I actually get to reading the arc)).

[redhoodinternaldialectical]

Thank you so much for the Jason review rec list! It motivates me to start reading his comics, tbh. It helps tremendously that you put so many details of his characterization in it, because it prepares me of the way hes written in it! :D I do have a question, which is: in your opinion, which of runs have the most consistent writing/characterization? Ive heard that hes written.. very inconsistently bcs they dont know how to write him (wont let him be an anti-hero or challenge batman, which also brings me to another question on what counts as his true characterization; is it him before the n52 reboot?) Thank you!

I'm really glad to hear that! I hope you have lots of fun exploring Jason comics :D

Wow are both of those questions very difficult to answer! But I shall do my best to under the cut!

Most runs are very internally consistent with regards to his characterization. Jason will stay mostly the same throughout the run, or have an actual character arc that keeps him feeling like the same character throughout.

Batman and Robin (2009) is a notable because Jason is written by two different authors in it, and Grant Morrison's Jason and Judd Winick's Jason have very different vibes.

What people usually mean when they say he's written inconsistently is that every author has a different take on what Jason should be like, and they all have a different idea about what kind of story they want to tell using him.

Judd Winick read Hush and thought something along the lines of "Wow this story would have been so much better if Jason had actually been the one behind everything that happened here!" and so he wrote Under the Red Hood, and made Jason into Evil Batman: someone with all of Batman's methods and techniques, yet without the commitment not to kill and with a serious thirst for vengeance.

Grant Morrison wanted a much more traditional Batman villain. Villains who blame Bruce for all their problems despite Bruce not actually being at fault and then killing people about it are pretty common. Morrison took that idea and used Jason to fit this mold in a new era where Bruce was gone and Dick Grayson took up the Batman mantle.

Scott Lobdell wanted a story about redemption and healing and family. So Jason gets repeatedly paired with other people to care for or to love and shown parallels in his own life that force him to confront his own unwillingness to forgive and become a much, much gentler person.

The authors of The Man Who Stopped Laughing were faced with the challenge of finding a suitable antagonist for the Joker. Jason is a character with enough of a violent streak to actually be menacing to the embodiment of all evil that is the Joker. But that requires bringing out that murderous streak, and thereby countering Lobdell's characterization.

Which of these is the true characterization?

None of them.

All of them.

One True Characterization can't exist in comics. Especially not DC comics which has a policy of almost routinely destroying their entire multiverse and building it back up from scratch.

Every character's personality is an aggregate of all the different stories that have been told about them. Those stories are told by dozens of different people, in a constantly shifting setting, full of characters who are also written by dozens of different people. What is and isn't canon changes constantly. All you can do is read a bunch of comics and get the general vibe of a character from that.

Jason's characterizations in particular have been so widely different that it's hard to figure out what exactly you should count as being true to him.

The reason many people may point to pre-new52 comics as 'true' characterization is that an important part of characterizing is keeping in mind the events the character has gone through and how those might impact their thinking and worldview. During the time span of around 1980-2009 DC comics were written such that it was pretty easy to make a timeline of events for any given character. Post-new52 I and many others find it nearly impossible to tell what history any of the characters have.

In between 2009 and now there have been at least two or three reboots. So, for any comic passed 2009 here is a list of questions about Jason that I can't answer:

Has Jason ever been to prison?

Did Jason fight Tim in Titan's Tower?

Was the Red Robin identity originally held by Jason?

Did Jason ever attempt to be Batman?

Has Jason actually stabbed Tim before?

Did Jason ever shoot Damian and Dick?

Does Jason remember the time he spent multiverse hopping with Donna Troy and Kyle Raynor?

Did he ever have tentacles?

Does he know that Dick has killed people? For that matter: Has Dick killed anyone?? Did Blockbuster ever exist??? Is that time he killed the Joker counted as canon still????

Did Jason ever kidnap Mia Dearden?

How many people has Jason killed? I can't even tell you if he's killed less or more than 100

Did the All-Caste thing happen?? Did Lost Days happen???

Was he involved in Hush?

These are really important questions! The list does not stop there either!

This uncertainty does not invalidate the newer comics, but the nature of the reboots does mean that the already difficult task of getting a 'true Jason' is impossible. You have to take every reboot as a reboot, meaning that new-52 Jason and Rebirth Jason and 2005-2009 Jason are literally alternate universe versions of each other. This is both true on a meta level, and has been written into the canon of the fictional world he lives in. Arguing that one is more real than the other is futile.

(Though it does mean that if you want a stable timeline, starting with 2005-2009 era comics is a good idea. It's easier to follow along with what is supposed to have happened and when. It also contains the majority of the events that fandom likes to play off of.)

The versions I like best reside mostly in the 2005-2009 era, and that's true for most of the other Jason fans that I follow on Tumblr, but I know of a few blogs who much prefer Rebirth Jason and neither of us can definitively prove that one Jason or the other is more valid or canon or true or whatever.

Most arguments about which Jason is the true Jason will just come down to personal preference anyways. Many, many people could write essays, pulling up sources and comic panels, to argue very effectively that I'm wrong about Brothers In Blood and Batman and Robin (2009) #1-#6 being in character for him. That's okay. It's cool even! The fact that he is messy and complicated and can be interpreted so many different ways is great! As you read, you'll find out which versions appeal to you best and they might be very different than mine!

My biggest advice is to read each author's rendition of Jason with an open mind, and an open heart, and just see if you like it!

Don't worry about searching out the real Jason. Just vibe with the stories that have been made about him and think about how each appeals or doesn't appeal to you. If you start reading, you'll develop an understanding of him. Your personal interactions with the art/stories will always be more valuable than figuring out the fan or authorial consensus about him.

[corhore]

What happened in Wonder Woman Rebirth? How did they retcon the stuff the Nu52 brought in?

It was revealed that Diana's memories of Themiscira, her mother and the amazons after she left were all an illusion by the gods Phobos and Deimos.

Basically the Rebirth was the return of many pre-flashpoint aspects of DC and to do that with Wondy they had to retcon all of her new52 stuff which makes sense as New52 Wondy was just too different to classic Wondy. Which is sorta a shame as some of her N52 stuff was dope, but alot of it was trash so I don't blame them for throwing it all away.

Wonder Woman Rebirth is also a self aware jab at how utterly inconsistent Diana's status quo and character has been over the decades. Like I'm not joking when I say everytime she got a new creative team they would basically scrap everything and do something different. New setting, new supporting characters, new tone. It was only until Rebirth where they decided to give her consistency.

Which is the reason why despite being a huge mainstay in DC Wondy isn't as easy a character to get into compared to Supes and B-man. Despite this she's still my second fav of the trinity (Supes being my first). And is still one of my favorite DC characters ever. That just shows how strong of a character she is.

Also last tidbit they retconned her New52 daughter of Zeus origin in Rebirth and then a few years later re-retconned it back in for some reason. No idea why. Guess someone at DC has bad taste and really likes that origin. Well since then several universe altering events happened, DC had massive layoffs and now another big universe altering event is happening so I have no idea what going on at the clown circus known as DC editorial offices.

[danny-chase]

what issues are the ones with Roy relapsing? I didn’t even know they mentioned his addiction a second time.

... let me just warn you right now it's bad and needs like a million warning labels (child death, amputation, drugs, some nsfw scenes)

So The Rise of Arsenal is where it starts - this is the aftermath of Lian dying, and Roy losing his right arm. Basically he's having the worst time of his life and relapses. He starts attacking people (other drug users/dealers that were nearby) because he's hallucinating, and Dick (as Batman) beats him (Roy's fighting back because he thinks Dick's the guy that killed Lian) and throws him (forcibly) into rehab for villains (which is one of the things i hate about the whole thing like he wakes up restrained and everything like wtf Dick wasn't the only one making the decision- Dinah also was a part of it too which implies most if not all of the people who care about Roy were cool with this and personally i take this as ooc). The rest of the arc starts at Titans (2008) #23 which retcons Wally and Dick into being assholes to Roy when they were kids and everyone into victim blaming him about his addiction. It's disgusting. The present timeline story goes till the end of the run and tbh i have no idea what was going on cuz i was reading for Roy's appearances, but essentially he joins a team with Deathstroke as the leader so he and Jade can kill Deathstroke in retaliation (i guess he was involved with Lian's death somehow). Then it all gets erased in the reboot.

Unsurprisingly, Dan Didio was the editor on the event that Lian was killed off in and I hate him for it. Roy's addition is mentioned in a bunch of other comics as well, almost always during a fight. It comes off as writers being like "how do we make this scene more dramatic? I got it let's have [x] call Roy a junkie! Great idea!" It sucks, it's out of character, and takes a serious issue and milks it for drama points.

In The New Titans #101 Dick brings up Roy's addition in a victim blaming way/a how could you betray me when I sat with you during detox way. The Titans (1999) #15 has Garth call Roy a "stupid racist junkie" and in Outsiders (2003) #16 Dick compares Roy to Ollie and says "Except he was never a junkie." When the comics bring it up it's always treated as a moral failing on Roy's part rather than a disease, and rarely do the characters realize they're in the wrong (the exception would be The New Titans - Dick realizes that he's acting horribly). You can pretty much watch the War on Drugs rhetoric worm it's way into comic books by seeing how writers tell their stories over time, with the finale of awful takes being Titans 2008

[incoherentbabblings]

Comic Book Shenanigans

So these two panels caused a little kerfuffle didn’t they?  Dick’s statement that Bruce has to be father to a bunch of batkids?  Correct.  Dick’s second statement that Damian suffers the most from Bruce’s ‘scattered’ parenting tactics - not because he’s the youngest, or most vulnerable - but because Damian’s Bruce’s ‘one real’ son? Eeeehhhh hmmmm.  Bruce leaving off the final S in sons accidentally/intentionally(?) stating that he doesn’t think of Dick or Jason as his sons?  Oh people’s butt clenched so fast and hard.

I can get behind the idea Dick not thinking of himself as Bruce’s son, since they emphasised it enough in the past that Bruce made a point of not trying to replace John in Dick’s life. This didn’t stop Bruce from viewing Dick as his son though (my favourite example is definitely Superman/Batman #65, it may have been a fear gas hallucination but by god you can pry that panel of bby Dick calling Bruce dad from my cold dead hands.  Other examples include the adoption arc in Gotham Knights, Bruce Wayne: The Road Home where in Bruce’s notes he talks about Damian, Dick and Tim as his sons and so on).  The above statement from Dick however requires Dick to know that Jason also doesn’t think of Bruce as his dad.  Which again, I can get behind in this continuity, but I can’t get out of my head how when Jason first woke up and dug his way out he literally started begging for his dad to come help him.  Again, we know Bruce thought of himself as Jason’s dad, hence the adoption years before Dick up to the Batman and Robin Convergence Issue.  Tim is in a similar boat in this universe but again Pre-Flashpoint he was the only one of the boys to take Bruce’s surname and do the whole Father’s Day issue of Robin and so on.  

The point is, Dick's exclusion of himself I can justify because I can get behind the idea that's how Dick himself understands his relationship to Bruce or how Dick thinks Bruce understands their relationship (true or not).  The dismissal of Tim and Jason, whilst fustrating, are totally logical in this universe. 4 Robins in as many years means heavily affected relationship trees right?

But this week's Batman where Bruce deliberately separates Jason and Dick from Damian is poorly phrased at best or is actively dismissive of Bruce's relationship to Dick and Jason at worst.  They're not his sons because...?  They're not related to him?  Or at least, that's the conclusion that many people jumped to.

I know Seeley and King do think of the batfam as an actual family regardless of biology (I'm sure they’ve both said as much in interviews in the past).  I saw lots of praise for Dick's relationship to Damian in this issue, how it really blurs that line between fraternal and paternal and how frightened Damian is in being replaced in that position in Dick's eyes. So I guess people got confused over how the boys can clearly see each other as brothers but Bruce cannot acknowledge any of them as his sons apart from the one he's (conveniently) biologically related to.  Maybe you could argue it's also because Damian is younger and needs guidance beyond that of a mentor (which is why Dick blurs the line between brother and dad right?) but the 'only bio kids count' schtick is still there in the background, especially in these panels.

I don’t really blame the writer’s for this. I think that after the New52 made it that Tim, Dick and Jason were never adopted nor really had that paternal influence due to the condensed timeline alongside the focus of Damian being The Son of Batman while the other three were distanced from Bruce as a father figure and so on and so on, have really made people feel like DC is dismissive of adoptive families.  Especially when by 2011 Bruce was referring to the boys as his sons [plural] even if Dick and maybe Jason didn’t feel the same way, then the reboot happens and now Bruce only refers to Damian as his son, and the status of the others when it comes to who is or isn’t adopted and when this all happened is really unclear.  On a tangent it’s linked to Cassandra’s treatment as well with the feeling that she has really been shafted for years now (oh my goodness people are begging for her to be adopted again at the end of Tynion’s arc, just so she can have a set place in the family no questions asked no more conveniently leaving the poor girl out of group shots and so on).  The same arguments are happening on the Green Arrow side of things right?  With Mia still …well MIA… and Ollie’s relationship to Roy versus Connor versus Emiko...

It’s really unfortunate (but I believe unintentional, not that it lessens the impact really) phrasing that is a bit screwy.  Dick’s statement (a totally understandable one from my point of view and makes sense in universe) from this weeks issue coincidentally coincided with King’s panel from Batman and it just made people remember that the Bruce isn’t really being allowed to be a father to any of the kids because of the consequences of the condensed timeline of the New52. 

Maybe this is something Rebirth will fix, maybe not. If not though, can I nudge editorial a little bit?  Bruce seems to not be allowed to be a dad to anyone outside of Damian, who just so happens to be his biological child, which leads to an uncomfortable line of thought that the others don’t count because of their lack of relation.  The reality is that it’s probably a lack of history.  We don’t really know what the three boys relationship to Bruce was before the New52 starting point outside of the odd flashback or annual here and there (with I think Jason’s remaining the most intact and Tim’s...not... lol Tim what a mess...)  If the paternal relationship is ignored, you have either just a mentor relationship (which I really doubt Bruce could do and not create a familial attachment to the boys) or the unfortunately persistent child soldier analogy, which is something no fan wants nor believes in… I think.  I hope.

[red-bat-arse]

When considering Jason's first return to Gotham as Red Hood, I think I prefer if his crusade isn't driven by an unnatural, foreign Lazarus Pit madness. I much prefer the take that the Pit just skates around the edges of what's already there and has nothing to do with his new methods.

Like yeah the former is great for angst potential, and if the end game of relevant stories is reconciling the Bat-family it tends to make the transition go smoother -if Jason was being influenced then there's something to blame. But unless you really dig into the psychological ramifications of unwillingly being resurrected and then being driven to escalating violence by a magic green pit, then imo most of the time taking this route just feels like a cop out. And because I like Jason's motivations as Red Hood (control, revenge, protection) it really irks me when his anger is just dismissed as the byproduct of "Pit madness", like its something to be cured or managed.

I prefer it if the effects of the Lazarus Pit weren't as big an influence as, say, the years Jason spent away from Gotham training and travelling for a goal he embraced. I know the new52 watered him down but when Jason came back as Red Hood, he was supposed to be sort of an "avenger" showing the hypocrisy of Batman's moral code in real time. He had a top down view of crime -he wanted to control it because he knew, with the way Gotham was, you could never stop crime. He didn't kill people indiscriminately and his goals were very fleshed out and very concrete.

So, iiiiiif you make the main thing driving his change in methods be a 'madness' that more-or-less influences his mind and thoughts, all of that falls a little flat. It really devalues any of Jason's well-deserved anger and grief over his brutal murder and how it didn't change anything in Gotham. You heard it straight from him, "I thought I'd be the last person you ever let him hurt." He didn't come back because he went 'mad' with revenge or the Pit's influence, or because Bruce replaced him, or even because he didn't believe he was mourned enough. Jason came back, under his own power and with his own views on how controlling crime would make him a better version of Batman, because he saw that the man who killed him was still running wild and terrorizing his hometown and he couldn't let that stand.

He wasn't being driven by Pit madness or whatever the fuck, he was being driven by very real feelings of grief, anger, betrayal, and a burning desire to do better for Gotham even if he had to turn away from Batman's methods to do it.

[flashfuture]

The New52 fucked up the West family so hard. 

Pre Reboot

Ira and Nadine West had three biological children Charlotte, Rudy, and a stillborn daughter. 

Iris was sent back in time from the future to avoid a war. She came seemingly very soon after the stillbirth because Nadine was still on bedrest. Iris was always Ira’s favorite. 

Ira was a very absent minded but brilliant physicist. He didn’t spend a lot of time with children and pretty severely emotionally neglected them. 

Charlotte was childhood sweethearts with a man named Edgar Rhodes. They got married and had a daughter named Inez. They would later get divorced. We know the least about them. 

Rudy married Mary and they had Wally. Rudy was a manhunter and a con man. He was always physically abusive to Wally and demanded a love he didn’t show his son in return. Mary was very emotionally and mentally abusive with gaslighting and guilt tripping Wally. 

Okay cause of that Wally always considered Iris and Barry his parents cause they loved him and raised him. 

Reboot. 

Ira went from an absent minded disaster of a physicist who didn’t spend enough time with his family to William West. 

William as it would seem had three kids with an unnamed woman. Rudy, Iris, and Daniel. His unnamed wife died when Daniel was born and William blamed him for this. He was very abusive and turned to alcohol. 

Wallace was very obviously intended to replace Wally. During a Flash annual Iris said his dad was Rudy which isn’t the case. 

Wallace was Daniel’s son and his mother is never named as well. Daniel also acted like Wallace’s uncle and not his father. Wallace was raised by his mother until he was a teenager. Wallace’s mother disappeared when the Crime Syndicate came around so he moved in with Iris.

So Rebirth says Rudy did exist so obviously Wally does too again. Which Wally and Wallace were very close to their Aunt Iris. Wally was heavily abused again by his parents. So he described the summers he got to spend with his Aunt as her saving him or rescuing him. It was very clear Wally was not safe at home and did not want to live at home. 

We also get a picture of a young Wally holding a toddler Wallace implying history was altered again to weave theirs together. So cousins who found solace and sanctuary with their Aunt Iris. 

What would have made more sense

Firstly just add Daniel in. No reason to delete other siblings. Just tack him on as the youngest sibling. 

Secondly don’t make Ira or William West the abusive drunk. That’s over played and over done. Abuse isn’t always so in your face. Ira is way more interesting of a character than abusive drunk #15

Thirdly on that point William abused Daniel and Iris tried to protect him. But when Daniel snapped and pushed his dad down the stairs and paralyzed him Iris abandoned Daniel. Iris West would have never ever sided with an abuser. It was always her main motivation for taking Wally with her as much as possible, keeping him safe. 

Fourthly DC give your female characters names for fucks sake. You redid Iris’s dad but didn’t name her mom. Wallace has a mom who is talked about, who raised him but she is never named. Stop doing that. It wouldn’t be hard to just throw in a name. For example “Wallace’s mom, [insert literally any name here], disappeared when the Crime Syndicate attacked” That would have added one (1) more word and it would make her a real character, names are important they assign importance to things. 

And lastly this one is just me probably but I want Charlotte and Inez back. I want Iris to have a niece. And Charlotte while maybe a little full of herself was apparently a not terrible mother. Iris having a big sister and not just two criminals for brothers would also be good. 

[spock-smokes-weed]

Alright so I’m actually going to break down why the fight wasn’t actually that bad and why y’all need to calm tf down and actually wait for the story to finish before you start yelling about Bruce being written as a bad dad again.

1. Old timeline is back, Jason did a lot of murder

Since Urban Legends is set firmly after the events of Death Metal and is part of the event (Infinite Frontier) that’s all about the old continuity coming back into play, I would kindly like to remind everyone that Red Hood was a straight-up villain pre-new52. A villain who did a lot of murder, and even tried to murder several members of Bruce’s family. I think it’s completely justifiable for Bruce to be wary of Jason, especially with how viscerally Bruce hates murder and guns. Things Jason has in spades. There was never an actual storyline of Jason going from villain to bat, it was just something that DC changed with n52, so Bruce’s trust in Jason being fragile because he’s suddenly remembering how much harm Jason used to dish out is understandable.

Jason even says himself in this issue that he’s killed a lot of people before!!!

2. The story so far has been written completely from Jason’s point of view

This means that Bruce doesn’t have the same information that we (the audience) do. He doesn’t know about Tyler, he doesn’t know who exactly Andy was, and he doesn’t know what Jason has been up to. I went back and skimmed issue one to make sure I didn’t miss something like Oracle filling Bruce in on the goings-on, and yea the moment where Tyler jumps out to defend Jason is the first time he’s learning about him. This means when he sees the dead body left in the alleyway by Jason, to him it looks like Jason going off the rails again.

And since it’s from Jason’s perspective I would consider him an unreliable narrator when it comes to Bruce. He’s always been an unreliable narrator when it comes to Bruce since he never got the full picture of what Bruce went through after his death. Like one of the tragedies of Red Hood is that we knew how badly Jason’s death tore Bruce apart, but Jason didn’t, and that lead him down the path to becoming a villain.

Bruce and Jason’s relationship has always been interesting because their different life experiences and trauma shaped them in different ways. Bruce had to watch his parents get gunned down before him so that left him with a wavering view of human life as something precious (no matter whose life it is) and with a petrifying hatred of guns. Jason was torn away from his family by being murdered by someone who wouldn’t have been a problem if a bullet had been put between his eyes a long time ago, giving him the ideology of sometimes people aren’t beyond saving and it’s better to kill them. We’re seeing those two ideologies clash again in UL like we saw in Under the Hood.

3. Fight Break Down

So one thing that I think is super important to take into account (which so many people have just so happened to leave out) is that Jason threw the first punch. Jason escalated things into violence.

It seemed all Bruce wanted was some answers, and considering that to him it looks like Jason killed the dude for no reason, he’s well within his right to ask for.

What I think is really interesting about this scene and interesting about this comic in general is how it shows all sides of Jason in a very natural way. I think his internal monologue being super freaked out that he just crossed that line again, while his external dialogue is all excuses and shifting the blame over to Bruce.

Jason is deflecting. He’s letting his emotions overtake him and getting angry and confrontational with Bruce when he didn’t really need to. This is super understandable knowing what we do about Jason and how triggering the situation with Tyler is to him, but that still doesn’t make it okay.

With the way Bruce tells him to stop yelling and how he shoves Jason off of him makes me think he really didn’t come here to start a fight. Bruce really doesn’t get all that violent with his blows until it becomes clear to him that Jason is gonna keep attacking him.

This fight was drawn beautifully and to me personally, it really looks like Bruce is pulling his punches. The language of the scene feels more like a situation that got out of hand on Bruce’s part, and with Jason, it looks like he’s legitimately trying to hurt Bruce.

Bruce’s expression and words here really make me think he didn’t want it to come to this. That he didn’t want to hurt Jason and clearly regrets that he did.

4. Closing thoughts

Bruce and Jason’s relationship post-resurrection has always been a confusing and complex one, and I think it says a lot that their fighting like this happened in issue #2. Bruce and Jason don’t understand each other, and misunderstanding has always been the core conflict between them, and I think Urban Legends is going to be the story where they finally smooth things over and come to see the world how the other sees it.

I think there is a great story in the works here and I’m just so tired at people already throwing out the nuance to paint Bruce as an evil abusive father who hates Jason. When that’s literally never been the case. Bruce was stuck in an impossible situation when it came to Jason being the Red Hood and handled it the best he could. I would say that Jason is the rouge that Bruce has been the most lenient with and has given him chance after chance after chance. Bruce has always extended the olive branch to Jason, always offered to help him but it was always Jason who pushed him away. Jason’s feelings about Bruce are understandable but honestly misguided in my opinion, and he’s so blinded by his own hurt to see it.

This post got super long but I’ve really liked what UL has given us so far and I can’t wait for the next issue. I think this is the story where the fight between Red Hood and Batman can finally be laid to rest.

Also, stop woobifying Jason and twisting shit to make Bruce look worse it’s infuriating

[redjaybathood]

And another thing. I am really tired of people talking shit about Jason "robbing" Dick of friends. This sentiment had gotten me in trouble before, so I will try to phrase it more carefully and in tune with how I feel about it now.

So. The problem with Jason getting a team in New52, objectively, was the attitude of the writer or/and editorial. They were not looking for a team for him but a supporting cast. Which is arguably, the same with Teen Titans with all the batboys to certain degree. For sure in TT Rebirth, and for Titans TV that is surprisingly gets a lot from NYT as far as I am reading it and recognize stuff.

But Lobdell made it worse because he is a shitty writer overall though he has good ideas sometimes. Still, some things he did were not without merit, but, unfortunately, it was pretty far from what was established for the characters in prenew52. It's not much worse than New 52 revamp of any of the characters, even someone as popular as Batman himself or Tim Drake. But it would have done better without blatant sexism and objectivisation of Kori and cutting out Roy's more prominent backstory as a member of Navajo tribe, and them being MVPs in their own right.

But, unfortunately, Lobdell loved Jason a little too much, cared about anyone else too little.

Now. While i acknowledge all if this and there are more things to be pissed about for the old fans for sure. Why am I so tired of people ranting about? Because it pretty much always comes to one of those things:

Jason or Jason's fans are somehow to blame for the existence of RHATO New52 as it is, or, even better, for enjoying it;

It's unfair that Jason got Dick's people on the team. They were Dick's!

I won't even touch the first one because jeez. The second one though: regardless of how I don't see them complaining that Nightwing writers didn't use the characters - i think they would have gotten priority, if they only asked... Though I am not really informed about it and open to correction if you have more insight: i tried googling this and didn't really find anything.

My main beef is with how there's a sentiment that tries to sound well-meaning: it would have been better if Lobdell gave him a team of his own people, his own friends.

Okay - who? Red Devil i suppose that was mentioned like in one issue of Kid Devil's as being a penpal? Or... Who, exactly?

Like, Jason didn't have people - in doylian perspective it's because writers didn't want to use the new Robin outside of Batman and Tec and arguably, some of them even there. That's basically why he got killed off.

In watsonian perspective, Jason was too tied up in Gotham to do more than appear like twice in NTT. He was 12-15, Batman didn't let him out much.

Any Teen Titan from that age, like Danny Chase or Rose Wilson or Grant something... Or Lilith, or - well, any of them. They weren't Jason's people and wherefore, why would they be a better fit? Well. Because they weren't Dick's, you see.

And it's stupid.

I mean, would i rather we see Jason team up with other, not very impressive or popular characters from the team he wasn't really on? Maybe, because there would have been a lot less shit fandom gave about it.

But they wouldn't make more sense for being Outlaws with Red Hood than Starfire and Red Arrow, except maybe Rose, but they have used her elsewhere.

[nightwingmyboi]

Another thing re Dick being blamed for failing Jason is that Dick (knowing it's irrational) does blame himself for Jason's death and encouraging Jason as Robin, but I don't think he's ever blamed himself for ''being a bad brother'' before Jason's death (the more common refrain in fic) because he...wasn't

I would say that, from what I’ve seen, Dick’s guilt mostly centers on not being there for Jason and on allowing him to take on Robin...not on treating him poorly. Because in general the two got along fairly well. Though I haven’t read as much of the New52 and maybe they’ve changed things there. Idk, it kind of reminds me of how people sometimes write Jason as blaming Bruce for his death, when he was actually more upset with what he saw as Bruce not caring that he died. Both easy misinterpretations to come to, especially if you aren’t reading the source material, which is fine and true for a lot of people. Fandom tends to place a lot of blame on Dick’s shoulders when it comes to any problems in the family, and it feels like sometimes people need to take a step back and be a bit more critical of this position that Dick’s in, rather than pile on.  

Since I don’t have replies, just wanted to add: @bicpencil wasn’t an issue! Brought up valid points that felt important to factor into the discussion. In general, appreciated people’s responses on that post, thanks to everyone who put their two cents in :) 

[fearthebadgers]

New52 CoV Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow headcanons!

          Ok, New52 Jon does not get enough love in the community because of how he was written. He is the more controversial Crane out there but I for one have New52 high on my list of favorite Jons out there. From what I can recall correctly, his story was the first with Jon’s father actually actively being around in his childhood albeit not in the best way.                                                                                                                    My own personal Jonathan Crane shares a very similar history to New52 as this specific version is a heavy influence for my own. I do enjoy a more grotesque and gory Scarecrow so New52 is certainly right up my alley. Anyway, apart from that here are some headcanons for New52 Jonathan Crane! 

Enjoy!

(Headcanons are actually below the cut cuz there are some triggering topics along with some spoilers if you have not read New52: CoV, triggers included mouth trauma, childhood trauma, smoking, anxiety issues, poisoning, bullying and death. Reader discretion is advised)

-You can blame Jonathan’s stuttering on his father. He developed it after a particularly bad experiment at a young age and even though he’s worked thoroughly to cover it up over the years, when stressed, emotional or excited it just sort of slips out.

-He’s one of few Cranes that did not grow up in Georgia. He’s Gotham born and raised although he did not grow up in the city itself but more in the surrounding rural area.

-The house that he canonically kept Batman and the 2 girls trapped inside is the same house he grew up in, just years and years later.

-After his eventual apprehension and recovery from being exposed to his own toxin, he was sedated and had the stitching to his lips removed and his broken bottom jaw treated. There are still small scars from the stitches surrounding his upper and bottom lip and has regular jaw pain as a reminder of what he did to himself.

-Any and all mirrors that have or do hang in any of his living spaces have either been smashed or completely shattered.

-He does have anger issues and can get very emotional at times.

-Jon had a black cat hanging around his childhood home that he named Binx but one day she mysteriously went missing from the second floor of the house where she usually stayed. Jon went looking for her one day and found her in the back shed with kittens. He found an old cardboard box and made a little kitty shelter for Binx and her new kittens.

-One of few Cranes that enjoys scaring birds. When no one is watching he’ll sneak up on a flock of pigeons and scare the crap out of them. Bonus points if it’s a murder of unsuspecting crows but often times he’ll pay for spooking crows as they often try to fight back.

-The diamonds that he brought to Penguin near the end of the comic actually came from a amateur robber. He kidnapped them, took the diamonds that they had just stolen and later of course experimented on them before letting them go with no recollection of what happened.

-Master manipulator and can make any lie believable but he’s also extremely blunt when he wants to be.

-If asked to do something, he’ll do it..eventually, just on his own time. If not he just won’t do it at all. You can’t expect New52 to immediately go through with your desires for any reason unless it benefits him as well. 

-Was the type of kid to build and practically live inside a tree fort. He’s oddly fond of the outdoors as it can often provide an eerie atmosphere to be in, especially if he’s alone. 

-Don’t ask for advice from him. He’ll often give you the most sarcastic advice ever, the worst ever or just say nothing at all. Again, he doesn’t like busying himself with someone else’s affairs if it doesn’t affect him.

-Jon is actually a bit..afraid to sleep. Anytime he closes his eyes to rest for a period of time, at some point he’s going to jolt awake almost screaming bloody murder because of nightmares and sleep terror.

-Do not touch him without permission first. Many Cranes don’t like being touched without giving their say so in whether or not they can be touched but New52 takes it a step further. If you were to touch him without asking to do so, he will inject you no matter who you are. You could be his best friend and he still would. This stems from the years of bullying and trauma that he suffered as he almost always associates any kind of touch as being of harmful intent. 

-Going back to the previous headcanon, he does not care who he injects. All he cares about when he does is the reaction he’s going to see from his chosen victim. 

-Jon is actually half to blame for his father’s death. He doused his father’s most recently bought pack of cigarettes in bleach so whenever he lit up a cigarette to smoke, he inhaled burning chlorine gas. This coupled with the coincidental heart attack is what caused Gerald Crane’s death. 

-He swears that his father’s ghost haunts him. Ever since Gerald’s death, strange and inexpiable things happened around Jonathan. His glasses going missing for extended periods of time later being found in the strangest places, his freshly made bed being found a mess for no known reason, doors opening right back up when he closes them, lights inexplicably flickering, just the usual run-of-the-mill paranormal activity. The one thing that makes Jonathan believe that his father’s ghost haunts him is the smell of cigarette smoke that lingers in various and random spots around the old, decrepit house. It usually gets stronger whenever something strange occurs.

[alrighty-vigilante]

Felix Faust and his one braincelled offspring – an epitome of DC's lost potential; a himbo,a dumbass and a fucking rat

It's not like any of you asked but it's the thing that wakes me up at night. DC created a lot of great characters: good, evil and morally grey.

And just like that... They abandoned them. Not like "stopped using them in their stories" – stopped caring.

Let me show you what made me so obsessed with DC's Faustfamily: the good, the bad and the ugly.

The Good

Sebastian, the firstborn of Felix, Abraham to his Isaac, is constantly haunted by the sins of his father and bashed for them. Around him heroes are not heroes anymore, too distrustful to treat him with decency, always suspecting scheming.

The Bad

Since every magic user pays some price for their skills I feel like his price is not being able to experience love or not for long. In Outsiders (1993) it was stated, or so I believe, that he has a hard time experiencing feelings because of his lack of soul. Even if not: since Halo was reborn many times, she doesn't even remember Sebastian. June Moon was completely apathetic after Enchantress persona was ripped out of her. Zatanna is Zatanna, I think their relationship was only mentioned in Mystik U so it's thankfully not anywhere near canon. In totally awful Suicide Squad: Black Files it's told Sebastian's wife is dying (and pregnant) so he enchanted her until he finds a cure. Even motherly love he cannot experience – no matter the author's approach, his mother is not around him for long and he feels responsible for her death which may have be the reason why she tried to look after his sister for as long as it was possible. Sorry I need a moment...

I'd have to be naïve to even hope for anyone in DC being so competent to show Sebastian as aromantic/demiromantic without showing people on this spectrum as soulless.

Fauna lived to be "lesser than Sebastian". Suffered the same fate as her brother but was neglected by her father from the start, unlike Sebastian who was taught by him some time. I don't think she and her father nor she and her brother ever bonded in any way. For me Fauna is the embodiment of the anger only an abused abandoned teenager can feel. Raw blinding rage not directed at anything in particular but everything and everyone including herself because she is not sure what and who should she hate the most. And in the end, it is she who suffers the most. It drives her a path of evil. All her attempts at being better than everyone and most of all – better than her father, are in real just attempts to get his approval.

The only time she felt free was when she got with Syonide (yeah folks she's lesbian) but, well, it didn't last long.

One thing about her that especially wakes me up at night is how in Raven she mentions her ancestors but stops, saying she's better than them anyway. Well, there are no such characters in whole DC. No Majica the Magnificent or whoever. Let's pretend it's not just a hole in the universe because probably it is just that: it leads to conclusion that Fauna made it up herself to back up her narcissistic attitude and the right to do what she want and take what she want OR her father made that up, and that leads us to Felix Faust himself.

The Ugly

WHERE DO I EVEN START, if I start to lost what's wrong with him you'll be reading this to the end of your life.

The most prominent personality trait of his is that Dumb bitch hours are 24 hours. Second: he is full of opposites. Is he intelligent? As hell. Is he still a gullible idiot? Oh yeah. Is he doing bad things? Yes. Is he a villain? No, he had his time of being neutral/good. He is driven by the need for power. What would he do if he gets it? The most probable scenario: nothing. What would he need it for, then? I can bet all my money, which are around 5$ and a bagel, that what he really want is respect (and that ties neatly with making up his genealogy tree). Now, his background varies depending on the author, of course they couldn't develop consistency, but many things are common nonetheless. So, if we just generally look at him, we see a man who, before being possessed by 5000 years young ghost, was nothing more but street magician – guess how much respect he got. This old sorceress that eventually took over his body also was humiliated in a great defeat. In the 70s he was called the greatest foe of the Justice League. Nowadays, even some drunk warlock junkie rat (yeah, I mean Constantine lol) makes fun of him. What could he crave more than some basic "this is Felix Faust, the greatest sorcerer alive who hoards all the knowledge"?

I would say it doesn't matter whether he sacrificed his son to help his dying wife or to get more power (he later sacrificed his daughter just for the latter reason. He just never learns). Generally sacrificing your children is shitty thing to do so there's no justification for his actions. He doesn't know when to stop and even if he feels regret for things he has done, he just keeps going in an everlasting chase.

Damn, in a way he is quite relatable: despite the efforts, he fails every time. Despite the education in three majors, he is so gullible. Making him not talented enough to match his knowledge truly is tragic.

What DC never explored, and never will, is he was a single parent, who didn't know how to carry on without his wife, how to bring their children up. Too focused on his "career" he neglected his children. Having Sebastian to grow up to be a better person and better sorcerer than he ever will be visibly drives him up the wall. At the same time he struggles, trying to get close with his son a bit – these clumsy attempts to scold him are actually meant to be compliments. (No such scenes with him and Fauna because apparently writers forgot about her completely smh).

I don't enjoy New52 events but I think a lot about how Faust was trapped in the Tower of Fate with Neron, the ruler of hell and also his abuser. He kinda had it coming but it's traumatic nonetheless

Another thing that could be explored by DC more is that in a way, heroes are pretty much the guardians of the status quo. Not only Sebastian takes the blame for everything and is not trusted by them, but they also haven't done much to keep Felix on the good side, never thanked him for his service nor did they tried not to push him into villainy. But such behaviour also affect other characters so I won't be focusing on this.

To sum it up nicely: just because this is about fictional magicians doesn't mean their story is unrelatable. People out there are emotionally absent in their family's life sometimes because of tragedy they went through or because they were not ready, or because something else. People may hate their abusers, love their abusers, be children of abusers. Parents put their children through harmful situations. Family are not always bonded and happy. Family members may long for contact but don't know how to get it. Etc etc, you probably got it.

Not only these characters suffers from lost potential but many, many more. Instead of seeing same characters like Batman or Wonder Woman over and over again, I'd prefer creators to go back and develop what they already have.

[danny-chase]

Do you think that Tim saved Dick in a way? Because we see Dick getting better as he gets closer to Tim and healing and getting back into the family, and ig it’s Tim who initiated that.

I literally don't have a yes or no answer for this... like most things in the Batfam - it's complicated. (Following answer is informed by 90s-00s comics, i can't really speak for new52 because it just... has so many issues one of which being erasing the relationship between Dick and Tim for *checks note* no discernable reason other than possibly *checks note* Didio hates legacy characters and wants only bad things for them so he could have excuses to kill them off or cancel their comics... idk just a guess)

Warnings: for Bruce stans - just look away i'm about to bring up bits of canon you most likely don't like, for Dick stans - Devin Grayson's run is mentioned, for the lovely anon - i wrote an essay, hope you are prepared

Tim coming into the family gave Dick a reason to occasionally hang around Bruce and i'm not sure if this is an exaggeration or not but he did sort of save that relationship - but whether that was a good or bad thing at the time, i can't really say. For sure - it starts off good, Bruce is actually trying to be a good dad (he comes down to Blud to check on Dick, adopts him, trusts him with his own city, calls him for backup, etc.). But we also see throughout Bruce Wayne: Fugitive/Murderer how unhealthy the relationship between the two can be. Dick built his core values around Bruce - if Bruce had actually killed here it would have been devastating for Dick (he was pretty much on the verge of a mental breakdown simply because they couldn't find proof Bruce wasn't guilty). The two literally got in a fist fight during the arc because Bruce was being uncommunicative and Dick couldn't take it anymore, snapped, and punched him when Bruce said "Bruce Wayne is dead only Batman now" - this tied into Dick finally having the relief and validation of being adopted and he couldn't handle Bruce stripping himself (and by extension, his fatherhood of Dick) away. In this era of comics Bruce had gotten physical with Dick before (here's me venting like an annoyed loser), and here's a clip from Bruce Wayne Fugitive that i just, *sigh*, canon Bruce, my detested.

Now on the other hand - getting Dick involved in the batfam more doesn't just mean he was hanging out with Bruce. His relationship with Tim is pretty great and I can definitely see where it was healing for a while - but also - to give credit where credit is due, the healing he goes through during this era of comics can also be attributed to Barbara and the Titans (the fab five specifically). Wally literally joins the Titans to give Dick a "social life" (me - it's because he's gay and wants to spend more time with Dick, actually, screw you DC you know i'm right). Donna plays a major part in keeping Dick's emotional well being in check. So like everything was going fine - Dick was healing, spending more time with friends, spending a lot of time with people he loved, like Tim, except he was neglecting his health and not sleeping - but overall he was in fact, managing, and moving past the deaths of Jason and some of the other Titans. With the current Titans - he was a hardass (which like ~trauma~ so I understand), but like things were going relatively okay.

And then Donna and Lilith died. And hooof Donna dying was like really really bad for his mental health.

Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files (2003) #1

[Image ID: Dick sits in a room staring at a photo, the phone rings in the background, and he doesn't even acknowledge it, the voice mail plays: "I'm not here. Leave a message after the beep." The photo is shown closer in the next frame, it's of the five original Teen Titans - Roy kisses Donna on the cheek, tipping his hat his other hand making the okay sign, Donna has an arm around Roy, the other hand on Dick's shoulder, Garth proudly stands beaming with his hands on his hips, and Dick has both his arms around Wally's neck. Everyone is smiling in the photo. A voice plays over the answering machine: "Dick, it's Roy - pick up the phone... c'mon... please... I know you're there... just pick up. Dick, we need to talk... you can't just... please..." End ID]

For context - the previous page noted that this is Dick SIX WEEKS after Donna died. Usually Dick's the one who moves on quickly, but Donna dying broke him in a way nothing else had before - and that could be partly because he was still recovering from everyone else's death.

Up to this point, Dick had been healing and Tim was definitely a part of that, but then DC decided to throw the absolute book, bookshelf, and library at him. Reading Outsiders (2003) it's very clear he's very traumatized, and around the same time, Devin is literally whumping him like it's the whump Olympics, breaking him and Babs up, burning down his childhood home, blowing up his apartment complex (killing all but like two of his neighbors), he's literally sleeping on fire escapes using newspapers as covering because he has nothing, and the bad thing i don't like to think about (i'll let you know if you ask but that one needs lots of tw, but if you know where i'm going you know what it is already), Blockbuster is killed and he blames himself - and loses it over breaking Bruce's one rule, Bludhaven is nuked, and he pretty much tries to kill himself.

So basically, he was on the path to healing (with Tim as part of that) before he got absolutely destroyed (and almost killed off by Didio in one of the crisis). Tim in his own right, was also going through a lot in the meantime, his dad died, Steph died, Kon and Bart died, i don't remember what else happened and i haven't read that era of Robin yet. Things were good until they weren't anymore, and sometimes i think Dick would regret ever exposing Tim to the life they live, and questions whether he should have just sent Tim packing x2. They do get to spend a year together on a mental health cruise, but then Damian comes into the picture, Battle for the Cowl happens, and they have their falling out. But whatever happened on that cruise must have been really healing for Dick because he actually kind of rocks it in this era - he keeps things light with Damian, Alfred notes at one point how he makes things easy because he has lightness in him, and he patches things up with Tim - catching him in that panel of Red Robin - from there they kind of go back to normal, there's a lightness to the way they banter with each other (also here) and Tim returns the favor (from the Red Robin incident) by pulling Dick out of the water.

They've saved each other multiple times over (physically), and in both in the Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham, Tim helps out in a period where Dick is starting to fall apart from the pressure of holding things together for so long (something Tim might feel guilty for, because he did run away from Gotham on a wild goose chase for Bruce). In that period, it's really clear that Dick saves Tim (he reminds him in RR, that someone does actually care for him) and then Tim saves Dick from being torn apart by Gotham.

I should point out - Damian, while starting off as kind of a hinderance, does eventually start helping Dick as well. By the end of their relationship (before the New52 destroys everything i love), Dick has helped Damian grow emotionally, and through that process Dick probably finds meaning and value in their time together, probably a lot like he used to feel with Tim. And of course, physically, they've both saved each other multiple times by the end of the run.

So yeah. I think Dick finds meaning in growth in mentoring his younger brothers, and it's likely a healing process, that healing just has some twists and turns along the way, and sometimes, on bad days, he probably feels like maybe he shouldn't have intervened at all, but i think on most days, he's proud of what Tim's become.

...I hope this is coherent lmao