#ghostbat meta

[distort-opia]

What is your ideal ghostbat dynamic?

Oh it's definitely the thrice-divorced snarky middle-aged men performing intricate rituals thing they currently got going on.

Batman 2022 Annual

Bruce Wayne, being a character with almost a century of history, has beein paired with so many individuals. There's a lot of relationships he's formed over time, but a particularly interesting type is the people-who-knew-him-before-Batman category. Harvey Dent, Thomas Eliot, Zatanna Zatara, Talia al Ghul... and now Minhkhoa Khan. Obviously, quite a lot of these characters ended up as unequivocal villains Batman has had to fight (Two-Face, Hush) while Zatanna remained a childhood-friend-and-almost-lover. Talia and Khoa are more complicated; they're definitely not heroes, not exactly on the same side as Bruce. But they aren't downright villains either. The waters are more muddled. In Talia's case there's the conflict between her loyalty and love for her father, duty and legacy; this opposition to Bruce's own goals was there from the start. But (to finally get to my point with this tangent) there was no such thing with Khoa, and that's basically my main draw to the ship. Bruce has other people that know him as just Bruce and not Batman, or as the in-between (all unique and complex relationships in their own right), but I can only think of Khoa as someone who was present for Batman being forged. While Talia was there when Bruce was training, she didn't share the same goal of combating crime, but Khoa did. For someone so desperately lonely as Bruce is, having someone to share that road with meant so much. Not only that, Khoa contributed to the formation of Batman by engaging him in the wild competitive streak they share, by pushing Bruce to rise to his level.

Hence... the unique kind of familiarity they have even decades later, despite the numerous betrayals along the way. That's an ideal component to me-- Bruce feeling like he can easily be himself. It's a rarity to him, since he plays so many different roles to many different people. And after Alfred's death, someone so important who knew him utterly and supported him from the start, he clearly missed it. It didn't really matter that Khoa killed dozens of people when he showed up in Gotham and literally declared he'll traumatize Bruce by killing a kid in front of him (which he probably would have done, if Harley hadn't managed to be as persuasive as she was). After Selina leaving him, Dick getting shot, his own father and Bane taking his city away, Alfred dying, losing his fortune and Joker War happening... myeah, I really feel like Khoa showed up at the perfect moment.

Which leads me to another component of their dynamic that I favor, and that's both of them being manipulative assholes and equals capable of kicking each other's asses. Why did Khoa show up with all of his resources after Joker War specifically? Why did Bruce ask him to stay so readily, forgoing the things Khoa had done? Hah. Khoa's undoubtedly been obsessed with Bruce, if keeping tabs on him and seeking out Jonathan Crane to learn fear and hell, even getting a sidekick to mirror Batman having a Robin is any indication. He gets to be close to Bruce and potentially ingratiate himself to him while fully knowing Bruce is using him, and Bruce knows it too-- but he's still allowing himself to depend on Khoa's resources and on him becoming part of Batman Incorporated and the more extended Bat-team. Khoa's always been manipulative; wonder if Bruce ever found out that in The Knight #4, Khoa was the one to tell those assassins Bruce's location, thus orchestrating a situation in which Bruce would finally accept to take him with him. But then, while they were training with Avery, Bruce was manipulative back, and you can literally see Khoa falling in love over it in The Knight #5, after Bruce distracts him with flirting and then steals the book.

At the end of the day, Khoa is a psychopath; perhaps not the sadistic kind, but he still operates as one, and Bruce can not only handle it, but he can handle it well. He's proven himself to be an equal, someone who challenges Khoa to improve and become better. Thing is, psychopaths overlap with narcissists a lot due to a basic reason. For neurotypical individuals, empathy acts as a way to see conspecifics as others, but like-minded others. You see other people think and emote like you, and you register them as human beings just like you. 'I feel what you feel, therefore we are the same.' But psychopaths work differently, in the sense that they often have excellent cognitive empathy, but a dulled affective one. They can tell how people think, but emotionally these things don't resonate with them-- the consequence being that they don't easily register others as equals, like-minded others. It's easy to then see yourself as the most valuable individual ever, as the center of the world, because you haven't truly ever shared that world. Which is why, when a psychopath meets someone they can relate to... they don't just relate, they become obsessed. Much like Khoa has. If all your life you felt you're separate from everyone else, having this kind of connection is life-changing, and you'll do whatever you need to preserve it. Including manipulative and murderous acts. But that's fine, because Bruce is attracted to this kind of thing. He himself has thought at some point about a woman (Jezebel Jet) that he should've known she was villainous and would betray him, because he had been attracted to her. I could get into Bruce's dating history and what it says about his preferences, but 'nuff said.

...Anyway, this got away from me, Anon :)) You probably didn't expect a whole-ass essay, but I hope you enjoyed reading through my personal take on them. I really like Khoa's character, since it's not often you get a morally-grey and complex psychopath like him, in comics. But to summarize my answer, my ideal Ghostbat dynamic is definitely one based on them being equals who know each other on a fundamental level, capable of handling both the good parts and the bad parts of the other; the one that solidified after decades of a push-and-pull between their core principles and ideals.

[batboopp]

i like ghostmaker and batman as narrative foils not in the “ghostmaker is incapable of forming relationships with or feeling empathy for others, therefore batman is better” way but in the fact that ghostmaker IS better. literally. more stronger mentally, emotionally, physically. stronger in the way he carries himself and how he sees himself and how he treats others (depending on your definition of strong) and yet, he’s still so so miserable. he can lie to himself all he wants, or ignore everything but blatant fact, but it still doesn’t change the fact that even though he follows batman’s “I work alone” rule better than the actual batman ever could, he still loses to bruce in some way. bruce was willing to shoot someone for khoa, willing to follow and stay, and khoa straight up couldn’t handle it. therefore, he is worse in the one thing that makes batman, batman. that nothing will ever tie him down, no matter what. not Bruce or his city or his rouges.

except, that’s not entirely true anymore, is it? because this time, he does stay. he meets Bruce’s kids and indulges bruce in banter and playfighting and even fake ‘dates’. he stays, and leads, batman inc. and he does it considerably better than batman. of course, he still kills people. he can barely stand batmans kids and the feeling is entirely mutual. he still treats others as expendable next to his mission. but, he stays. he stays with bruce, with someone, in some way this time. he’s learning, he’s willing to learn.

[everyones-least-favorite-bard]

hey uh actually its time for me to vomit some thoughts on ghostbat

i really do love all the content out here for them in the vein of like divorced-core bitchy snarking and whatnot its funny its classic fandom behavior so its got that nostalgia factor its real fun to see but (non derogatory) but! i feel like thats such a watered down way of observing them. a reflection of a reflection of a reflection if u know what i mean

like obviously this isnt a new thing fandom is doing dynamics get dissolved into the simplest, most consumable caricatures of themselves possible all the time. its like a rite of passage at this point. but there are truly so many fascinating directions you could take ghostbat in particular and seeing it dissolved into just. gesturing at the above paragraph. that. is kind of sad.

i think (and this is just my observations from reading batman the knight and vol 3 of batman inc) one of the keys to their dynamic that really gets me is how modern-era (for lack of a better term) ghostmaker is consistently chasing bruce's shadow. i would say most of his actions can be described as being motivated by a desire to understand and be understood by batman.

like. hes living in batman's shadow not because batman's reputation precedes him or because batman is more capable than he is but because there is something fundamental in batman that ghostmaker believes he lacks. it's a key part of the infamous pseudo-break-up-in-the-rain in issue 105 of batman (2016) when bruce leaves khoa for gotham: bruce says, “you’re sick. there’s a part of you that’s broken and you’re angry that it’s not broken in me.” and khoa is reasonably incensed by this and takes a swing at him. they devolve into a fight that ends with the agreement we saw dick reference obliquely in issue 104.

of course, this assertion is categorically false—bruce himself points it out later in the 2021 batman annual. ghostmaker discusses his latest take-down of a major portion of his rogues gallery and how his successful defeat of all of them makes him a fundamentally better crime-fighter/vigilante than batman since he’s doing it without any of the personal vendettas and attachments bruce has.

but the key is that in his recounting of his battle he inadvertently reveals that he does in fact have a connection with each of them: madame midas and kid kawaii in particular. madame midas took down his fathers business when khoa was young and we see in his memory that this is something that deeply upset him and something he never forgot. in his actual take-down of her he brings it back up when he delivers the killing blow (batman annual 2021). with kid kawaii hes visibly upset by her physical appearance being that of a child and regularly does his best in their fights to take her down in a way that can hopefully allow whatever child-like portions of her remain to be saved (batman 108). i believe one of his battles with her actually contributed to her creators having to put an emotional inhibitor in her since some of what he'd said last time they fought got through to her (batman 107/108).

and bruce points this out!! he's somewhat subtle about it, of course, but he points out that no actually, khoa isn't free from this fundamentally very human part of him that wants to help people because it's good and that wants justice for wrongs slighted against him. still in the batman annual issue, he says, “you spent years focused on a single crime lord. that dedication isn’t about glory or efficacy. there’s a reason why this victory matters to you. a reason why you care.” and khoa (after a flashback) gives an embarrassingly flimsy defense in response to this but it’s still very, very clear that he does, in fact, suffer from the same bleeding-heart syndrome bruce does—if perhaps not as intensely.

obviously i have my gripes and whatnot with khoa being tagged as a psychopath since it seems kind of flimsy at best but i don't know enough about aspd-spectrum disorders to really pin it as definitively good or bad but still!! still!! he does have the personal stake in vigilantism that he condemns bruce for having (not even touching on the whole phantom one/clownhunter arc). at the end of the day ghostmaker believes hes missing this unnameable quality of empathy/desire for justice and he thinks that's what separates him from bruce and what makes them incompatible as partners (vigilante partners but also like. take that as you will): it is not.

the reason they cannot work together is because khoa believes he is missing this part of himself and as long as he continues to believe he's incapable of these things he's never going to measure up to his ideal of batman in any of the ways that matter.

on the batman end of things i feel like bruce is most characterized (at least in the batman the knight era of their relationship) by his desire to see khoa “fixed,” for lack of a better word. he initially takes khoa at face value for things, so when khoa gives his whole "i’m a vigilante for the art, the drama" speech he believes him.

it's actually a very sweet kind of naivete—like, of course, why wouldn't khoa know why he's doing this? bruce is very clear in his convictions regarding his motives for vigilantism and he and khoa are at the very least intellectually matched, so why wouldn't khoa be honest? why wouldnt he know the reason why he fights? if minhkhoa khan, the ghostmaker, says he fights crime because he believes in the aestheticism of a job well done, why wouldn’t bruce believe him?

so it becomes a point of contention between them for a very long time because bruce believes this kind of selfish method/motive and the incompatibility between them because of it will eclipse any relationship they have and, looking at the notorious issue 105 rain fight, it technically has. in their first mini-divorce arc in issue 6 of batman the knight in which they have a fistfight in the snow and khoa leaves bruce after beating the shit out of him he spends much of the fight talking, again, about the artistry of crime-fighting and how he enjoys the challenge of it more than the justice. when he wins the fight, he stands over bruce with a gun and contemplates shooting him (contemplates being used generously here: he stands over bruce visibly anguished before dropping the gun) and his excuse for not finishing bruce off is just that it would be, “too easy" (batman the knight issue 6). again: bruce has no reason to question this—even in a brutal physical altercation khoa continues touting his vaguely hedonistic motives behind joining bruce’s crusade. there is no reason why bruce shouldn’t believe him.

its only when he comes back in issue 8 and leaves with bruce towards the league of assassins that we see bruce kind of begin questioning how true khoa’s cited motivations are. obviously he's still pretty deeply embroiled in his Woe: I the Bat am Alone theatre kid bullshit—“this can’t last. and i think we both know it.”—so he spends most of their time together more observing the idea of khoa he has in mind and convincing himself that anything he sees outside of his established framework isn’t real, but we see when they escape ra's and blow up a major league of assassins headquarters that the illusion is starting to slip (batman the knight issue 9).

in their one-v-one combat for the position of demon’s heir (demon’s heart in bruce’s case) bruce’s monologue switches out of his doom-and-gloom khoa and i are incompatible talk into more of the space we see him in around the issue 105 break-up: during their fight bruce says, “there’s nothing to you! there’s nothing there! you know what’s in me?! everything!” which is a less accusatory version of the 105 quote but still in the same vein (batman the knight issue 10). so we see bruce has moved past taking khoa at face value regarding his joy in “the artistry of crime-fighting” but he still hasn’t quite shifted further into recognizing khoa’s other/true motives.

the rain break-up on bruce’s end, then, shows a further evolution of his interpretation of khoa’s behavior: he believes khoa’s desire to continue working with him is founded from a desire to keep bruce on his level—an action rooted in jealousy over something he will never be able to obtain. khoa believes this as well since, as stated before, he hits bruce in the face immediately after it’s pointed out. but even then he is still taking what khoa says at face value: he still believes khoa is only motivated by his thirst for a challenge and that khoa wants bruce by his side more so he isn’t alone in his empty hedonism than for actual wanting of bruce himself. this informs his reaction in issue 104 after he and robin chase a criminal to singapore: after his undisclosed argument with khoa he is visibly upset over the state of their relationship but believes it irreparable due to the differences in their morals.

i think from there though, bruce only begins picking out the gaps in the mess that is khoa (that we see anyway) when khoa’s telling him about his grand exploits after they meet up again. while their earlier conversations (ie; batman asking ghostmaker to stay in late issue 105) definitely reveal bruce’s newer perspective on khoa, it’s really only the batman annual 2021 conversation where we see bruce make the jump to further filling in what khoa is (very loudly) not saying. another tumblr post also mentioned the scene being the first recorded mention of bruce saying khoa’s name after the rain fight—which considering the last time we saw him say it was The Fucking Rain Break Up Again, sort of thematically implies he’s reached another level of understanding with khoa.

so i’d say on batman’s end he very badly wants to understand khoa, but he’s also only just starting to realize that he doesn’t have enough of the pieces.

this got away from me tbh but the point being: ghostbat has more nuance than a lot of incorrect-quote-y type content has room for.

[angstandhappiness]

BAH HAH

Absolutely LOST MY SHIT at this, DC definitely knows the way to my heart re: a Bruce ship is someone he respects but also finds deeply annoying and they're both petty assholes about each other. Impossibly competent, dangerously effective fighters who just take every chance to take a cheap shot because they KNOW it'll get under the other's skin even WHILE they're both fighting tooth and nail against each other. PLEASE, BOYS, BOYS, YOU'RE BOTH VERY SMART AND BOTH HORRIBLE GREMLINS DESPITE GROWN ASS ADULTS AND I LOVE YOU VERY MUCH.

[butcherlarry]

Weekly Fic Recs 68

I am back from my travels and I come bearing fic recs :)

Also, today is the LAST DAY to get your prompts in for Superbat Week 2024! Here is a link to the prompt submission form:

We also have a discord!! There are many awesome people there and there is constant chatter about our beloved superhero husbands. Follow the link in this post if you are interested in joining:

You can also get updates to the event by following @superbatweek2024 tumblr blog as well :)

Now onto the fics!

Bells will ring, the sun will shine by Anonymous - Superbat, complete. Kryptonians survive and make it to Earth! There are some people (*cough cough* Amanda Waller *cough cough*) who think the Kryptonians are up to no good and ask Bruce Wayne to go check it out and meet up with one of them to gather intel. In Las Vegas. Anyway, they both end up drunk and some how married :) Shenanigans ensue.

third act twist by pomeloquat @pomeloquat - Ghostbat, Superbat, complete. A fascinating look at Bruce's past relationship with Khoa and future relationship with Clark.

Patchwork Pod by Ktkat9 @ktkat99 - Superbat, Batfam, wip. More mer Bruce! Clark is out of the hospital, hooray!!

carry me when you go forth by Anonymous - Superbat, complete. This author's note says it all: "boss makes a dollar i make a dime that's why i write superbat macro/micro pwp on company time" There is also some lovely art that @januariat created based off this fic and another fic on this list (Exponential).

I Proti Fora by Spartypants @sparkypantaloons - Batfam, complete. Jason and Bruce go on a lovely vacation to Greece :)

The Antithesis Of Magic by Ghxst_Bird @ghost-bxrd - Batfam, wip. An update to Redhood Jason adopts a child Bruce from another dimension. Lorge gremlin man taking care of smol gremlin child, I love it :D

Love and Hope Endures by littlechinesedoll @brucietales- Superbat, complete. This fic has everything that I love! It's omegaverse! It's mpreg! It's set in medieval times! It has mystery! It has the King (Clark) falling in love with a commoner (Bruce). I love it so much 💖

Little J by LilLayneeLoo - Superbat, complete. Another mpreg fic :) A very pregnant Bruce thinks he can have his child by himself, no problem. Shenanigans ensue.

The Valley of the Shadow by FabulaRasa - Superbat, complete. Bruce gets terminally sick. Clark is there to help.

guilt is a useless emotion by TheResurrectionist @frownyalfred - Batman, complete. Fic based off this post. Bruce and Hal continue their argument into the showers. Clark endures.

Don't touch my weird brother by Speechless_since_1998 @mylifeisfruk4ever - Batfam, complete. An excellent sibling fic. The only one allowed to pick on Tim is his brother, Jason. Fuck those other guys.

dead man's party by TheResurrectionist - Batfam, wip. More of the Jason sees ghosts fic!

Exponential by unbreakabledawn @unbreakabledawn - Superbat, complete. The other superbat micro/macro fic I referenced above :)

Mission: seducing Superman by Speechless_since_1998 - Superbat, wip. More of Battinson trying (and succeeding! somehow) to seduce Superman. So many shenanigans happening!

The Only Son of Themyscira by mitzvahmelting @mitzvahmelting - Superbat, complete. Clark goes to train with the Amazons after he comes back to life. Bruce deals with his emotions the best way he knows how (ignoring them).

eye in the sky by TheResurrectionist - Superbat (kinda), Batfam, wip. An update to the fic where Bruce is a prisoner of the Regime and trains other metas! Duke has finally met Clark and is not creeped out by him at all :)

Everything Will Be Just Fine by lonelynpc @lonelynpc - Batfam, wip. Goth dad Battinson being the best Goth dad he can beeeeeeee!!!!!!

willing the door open with your need by sunsh4ne - Bruce x2 (!!!!), complete. Omegaverse! Omega Batfleck somehow gets in the same universe of Alpha Battinson. Sexy times ensue :))))))))))

Exobiological Toxicology by Briarwitched - Clark & Conner, complete. After a successful mission, the League goes to an alien bar to celebrate. Clark and Conner experience the joys of being drunk for the first times in their lives. Shenanigans and family bonding ensues.

Super...Baby? by LilLayneeLoo - Superbat, complete. More mpreg fic! All of sudden, Bruce is developing the same powers as Clark. I wonder why...

prelude by TheResurrectionist - Lex Luthor, wip. Dan the Alpha my beloved. Part of the a room full of coral series. Lex goes into heat and runs into an Alpha on the property line of Lake House :)))))))

Happy reading!

[allgremlinart]

Been thinking about Bruce and how so often his guilt over not saving someone like completely consumes him. Because his whole thing is that he thinks he needs to be able to be in control, to be on top of every situation at all times and when he's incapable of that (like most people would be) he takes it as a personal failure that he needs to punish himself + others for...

Which brings me to Minhkhoa's line here: "If every loss cuts against your soul it'll whittle you down to nothing" which is TRUE. Bruce DOES feel things almost too much sometimes. He can't separate himself from loss and takes every single one as a personal responsibility.

which shows how Khoa knows and understands him so well... and why they work so well as foils. Minhkhoa needs Bruce to remind him that sometimes getting attached to people is necessary and healthier for you and Bruce needs Minhkhoa to remind him that sometimes he needs to distance himself before he gets completely consumed...,

Like idk I just love that Khoa would not fucking stand for a second any of Bruce's moods he gets in where he tortures himself over not being able to save someone... like I just know he wouldn't stand for Bruce wallowing in his own guilt..

in conclusion im feeling normal

[angstandhappiness]

BAH HAH

love that khoa canonically dislikes the rest of the batfamily and vice versa.

i love exploring the concept of them not getting along at all, they don’t want this guy around bruce, they don’t like him, and khoa doesn’t care for them enough to address them by name.

with a lot of bruce ships there’s plenty of content of the batfamily accepting his partner as a part of the family but i love the pettiness of them never getting along with khoa and bruce being annoyed that khoa is beefing with his kids.

[therehavebeenstranger]

I really want to see your Ghost-Maker essay... If not then I'm gonna have to start working on that GhostBat meta idea floating around in my head because I desperately want to read some GhostBat meta.

she's cooking! that's my fun hobby writing this semester. hopefully it'll actually find a home somewhere lol

[distort-opia]

Your meta just made me realize ghostbat and cherik are almost the same ship 😭😭😭

YESSS, I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR 84 YEARS-- that's literally the first thing I thought of when first encountering the ship! It's like half the reason why I even got into it. And I haven't followed the comics in almost 5 years, but I do know of House of X and Charles and Erik currently working together and being co-rulers and this close to being canon, and it's... truly, the similarities abound (with some key differences, of course).

[distort-opia]

Ghostbat is absolutely sending me on multiple levels, and it’s just. It’s fascinating. The way Bruce is nearly exclusively attracted to dark and dangerous individuals is so consistent at this point, that anyone arguing against Bruce being shipped with an anti-hero/villain with “But they killed people!! Bruce would never--” is an absolute clown :)))

Didn’t Selina kill Black Mask? Also she was imprisoned for the murder of like hundreds of people at the beginning of King’s run; Bruce had no proof at the time she didn’t really do it, but he still went “Nope, actually, I’ll stick by you.” Then you have Talia, the literal mother of Bruce’s child -- who also killed multiple people. Nocturna wasn’t a saint either, that’s for sure; depending on continuity she at the very least had a murder attempt. And tbh, shoutout to her for calling Bruce out on his bullshit for being repeatedly drawn to dangerous women. Then there’s the murderous, treacherous Jezebel Jet, whom I like a lot just because Morrison had Bruce downright admit it, in Batman: R.I.P --  that he was attracted to her because of her darkness. Hell, even if you stray further to more distant love interests he’s been given, like Wonder Woman; didn’t she kill Maxwell Lord?

Bruce befriended Harvey, and then Harvey ended up a murderous villain. Bruce’s childhood friend, Tommy Elliott, ended up being a murderous villain. And now we get Minhkhoa Khan, who apparently started the whole pattern, since the guy killed his and Bruce’s master in front of him with a gun, sending Bruce in pretty much a PTSD flashback, and Bruce was still like “Oh it was self-defense? Sure!” only then to ride with Khoa into the sunset. Not to mention the fact Ghostmaker killed dozens of people in his introduction in Batman (2016) #102-105, which Bruce just entirely breezed over.

While it is funny, it’s also... deeply sad, I suppose. In The Knight, one thing that really struck me as well done was the deep sense of loneliness Bruce has. He clearly feels very alone, and wishes to have someone like him, so much so that when Khoa turns out not to be the person he wished he was, it “breaks his heart.” And later on, despite the things Khoa has said and done, Bruce’s need for connection outweighs his sense of morality or his trauma, even. If you take into account what happened with Khoa, Bruce then befriending Harvey in his first year as Batman, and having a similar thing happen, despite him trying to trust someone again -- that must’ve hurt. Hell, him being so cautious about Clark makes perfect sense, all things considered. Even if he genuinely believes Clark is inherently a good person, he can’t fully trust him, and well... [gestures vaguely to all of the above] who can blame him.

And yet he can’t help it! He keeps trying to make connections with people who he thinks might understand him, going as far as to overlook them being killers. The darkness they have speaks to his, but never fully. Bruce is such a goddamn walking tragedy, because he’s not fully hero, and he’s not fully villain... In the end, his relationships with people from either side end up in conflict over delving too far into the dark, or over Bruce not being able to climb up far enough into the light. That line he walks makes it so difficult for him to maintain relationships, even though he clearly can start them.

[angstandhappiness]

DUDE

Do you ever just think about how in Batman The Knight, Bruce mentions they promised to not use guns and yet Bruce is the first one to shoot Luka to protect Khoa? Especially considering his small flashes whenever he had to use guns even at inhuman targets? And he still did it?

YES!!! Yes, I do!!!

I went through this specific issue recently and i have so many thoughts, I hope you don't mind me using your ask as an excuse to ramble :)

Bruce was having such a bad time in this issue it's not even funny. Luka just decided to kill the only constant figure in his life at this point, his partner, his bestie, his boy crush, his only companion, and just expected him to sit and watch while he shot him right in front of his eyes, like, bro, right in front of the traumatized by loved ones being shot in front of him boy??? WHY

And of course that happened after months of him relieving this particular trauma repeatedly on account of having to use guns and interact daily with a guy who, bc of his past career, he couldn't help but compare to his parents' murderer. Why not, after all. Just marinate him a bit before going for the kill.

Obviously, Bruce couldn't let Luka just kill Khoa, so he takes the gun, and he doesn't even kill Luka, but taking that shot was such a difficult thing to do in such a stressful situation in which he's clearly relieving his biggest trauma. And like, sure, he made his promise to Luka, but more than that, guns are forever associated with his parents death and their murderer. Bruce very much can't use guns on real people without shaking, trembling, throwing up, yk, feeling like he's putting himself in the shoes of joe chill and feeling so intensely guilty. It’s really his last resort - if it was Bruce’s life that Luka was threatening, he might even have let himself be killed in order to not have to use the gun.

However, since the universe is not over with him yet, and still has some ideas about how to make his day worse, it decides instead to force his hand by making Minhkhoa be the one being held at gunpoint. Thus, Bruce does take the shot anyway in the worst way possible and in the worst situation ever, and literally the only thing that could've been worse would be making him kill someone, so of course,

THEN

MINHKHOA TAKES THE GUN

AND SHOOTS LUKA RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM

MAKING SO THAT BRUCE'S SHOT REALLY RESULTED IN SOMEONE'S DEATH

ONCE AGAIN

RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS TRAUMATIZED EYES

and as if this wasn't enough

HE THEN POINTS THE GUN AT BRUCE

Honestly his biggest crime, I don't care about the murders and other felonies, this moment right here is the only thing he ever did wrong.

Like, can you imagine the level of brain damage bruce was receiving that day?

Khoa went from loved-one-about-to-be-killed to being the one walking on joe chill's shoes. His range, honestly. No wonder Bruce got so mad and then so heartbroken. Crying his eyes out, literally hugging himself. The saddest, most traumatized boy ever

Anyways, bruce still misses him, even after all khoa put him through. Or, as he says, he misses who he thought he was. After their first breakup khoa's image took a lot of damage - bruce really starts to wonder if khoa wasn't just a monster and he was the only one not seeing it. He thinks minhkhoa is sabotaging him, and that he might have killed alfred and his ex-girlfriend.

But of course nothing of this it's true and Khoa manages to undo some of the damage to bruce's opinion of him by trying to warn him about the guy actually sabotaging and trying to kill both of them (he also almost dies in the process, which i'm sure made him seem extra harmless and babygirly to bruce), so i guess that was enough to take away the thoughts of khoa being very likely to kill him one day.

He also offers a justification for the two murders he committed (Luka and master Ouahbi - honestly, what's the deal with all those criminals/ex criminals being both so good at diagnosing people with psychopathy and hating them so much????), and it was good enough for bruce, i guess? Tbh, he was mostly just trying to not think too deeply about it, 'cause he just wanted to have a little more time with him so badly. He would do so many things for khoa, and forgive him for so much stuff. HOW COULD KHOA FUMBLE HIM SO BADLY-

One thing I think about a lot is how in btk #7, bruce’s broken heart is addressed - he only references his trauma with his parents death in the issue, but the last issue ended with him saying his heart was broken bc of khoa so we can infer that he’s thinking about what happened between the two of them too. I find it interesting how this seems to be bruce’s way of dealing with khoa - he doesn't talk about him. Dick mentions it in Batman (2016) #104

And bruce never says a word about what happened between him and khoa to zatanna

I wonder if this is his way of keeping khoa with him. As he says, his heart never heals bc he doesn't let it - and so, he never talks about khoa, he only talks with zatanna about the loss of his parents, and he tells dick some of the bad khoa did to him, but doesn't delve into how important he was to him, or the good times they spent together, or how willing he was and still is to forgive him (tho he ends up showing him this part anyways when he goes to ghostmaker to ask him to coparent batman inc. with him when he first started it). He tells their story in a way that makes it seem like their separation didn't affect him negatively at all - dick only realizes bruce still misses him bc of his super powers of seeing right through bruce’s emotional barriers. But bruce keeps refusing to talk about khoa, or adress the ways in which he is still hurting, so he nevers gets better, and thus, khoa is still with him in a way, if only in wounds he left behind.

I also think bruce focuses a lot on everything bad khoa did to him and tries so hard to not even think about the good parts of their relationship bc the truth is, in his heart, the good outweighs the bad by a lot. Which is the reason why khoa barely has to do anything to win him back every time he comes back - bc despite everything, bruce has always been way too willing to forgive him for everything, and all he really has to do is to come back, and be willing to stay for a little while longer.

[dracaelus]

from batman 2021 annual by James Tynion IV

It's very (very) late at night and english is not my first language, so sorry for the grammar mistakes. But I'm having some pretty intense thoughts about how (in the comics written by James Tynion IV, that cannot be placed in the same continuity as Zdarsky's Batman: The Knight) Minhkhoa and his family are held at gunpoint by Master Midas and his goons, something that is implied to be the catalyst for him to become a vigilante; and later on, once he becomes ghostmaker, we never see him use a gun (ONCE AGAIN, in james tynion continuity - the guy who introduced ghostmaker and his backstory)

And now, this is just my personal interpretation and hc, but Khoa having an aversion to guns bc of this moment fits pretty nicely with the way his dynamic with bruce works

Bc bruce and him are really very similar, and this is both the reason why they get along and why they fall apart. They have a strong case of self recognition through the other (complimentary) (derogatory) (affectionate) (DENIALIST). Bear with me

Doesn't Khoa's backstory remind you of something?

Sure, the circunstances are different and his parents weren't killed, but it does have some glaring similarities to bruce's own backstory. And it's not hard at all to notice, especially when Khoa and Bruce meet paths later on.

But you know a funny little thing about Khoa?

He himself doesn't acknowledge those things. Or at the very least, he doesn't like to acknowledge

He doesn't like to think of this moment as being the main reason for him to become ghostmaker. He doesn't like to think he did it so he could avenge his family by dismantling the Midas family empire and others like them.

He prefers to say that he does it for the "art of it". He likes to think that bc he's a psychopath, he doesn't have feelings and cannot be moved by them. He likes to think that him being a psychopath means nothing can hurt or affect him. That's the version of the story he likes to tell himself

So you can imagine how bad it was to find a boy in the same path as him, with whom he had an amazing connection, who he thought was the only person in the world who was just like him...

Only to hear this:

Like, are we at all surprised that he reacted like that?

from batman vol 3 #104 by James Tynion IV

"some childish idea of vengeance" hm.

btw yeah, it wasn't a great moment for him to hear bruce saying those things. Everytime Bruce acknowledged something about himself it was like he was pointing out khoa's weak points, showing him a mirror who reflected everything he was carefully ignoring and intentionally denying.

And Bruce. Bruce never stopped saying it. It's the very first thing everyone knows about him. He became batman bc of his parents. Something terrible happened to him when he was a child. It changed him forever. He can never let go of his past. He's moved by it. It shaped the person he is. He doesn't use guns bc of it. He's very adept to adopting orphans bc of it. He'll never stop trying to fix gotham bc of it. He's not ashamed to say it.

This is how he copes with his own Tragic Backstory™. By recognizing how much pain it caused him.

Khoa? He copes with his past by not recognizing how it affected him at all. By pretending it doesn't matter. That he doesn't care.

But Bruce makes it very difficult. He really does know him better than that

(tumblr won't let me put any more images, but just so you know, khoa doesn't tell him that he's right and the case was personal for him. bc he's repressed, you know. Btw go read this comic if you haven't)

So yeah, khoa hates bruce bc he doesn't like the idea of being like him. And that's also the main reason he tries so hard to make bruce leave gotham and his past behind. He's gonna fix this emo boy to prove he has nothing to fix about himself, you know, as you do.

But also bc he just likes bruce and he wants to be vigilantes husbands with him and that won't happen unless one of them admits the other is right about them (and i say "them" bc their self image/beliefs is somewhat linked to the other - at least in khoa's case, bc he's the one who has the full picture of their parallels and won't share it with bruce. But for him, if bruce insists he cares, then he's also implying that khoa cares. And when khoa says he doesn't, he is also fighting for bruce to not care too. Like, one cannot be fully satisfied with their own truth unless the other agrees with them. Khoa just decided they have to be mirrors in all the ways that matter (and also in the ones that don't). Batman has a giant dinosaur in his cave, ghostmaker must have one too. Batman has a batmobile, ghostmaker must have a ghost-racer. Ghostmaker doesn't care about his past - Batman, c'mon baby, be just a little more repressed, will you?)

Btw i need to sleep i think i'm gonna pass out i hate this deranged old man he's my favorite babyboy in the world i hope he has a terrible day tomorrow and my god all i wanted to say is that i don't think he likes using guns for personal reasons he won't admit why am i like this

[dracaelus]

Pleaseeee make that relationship comparison between GhostBat and batjokes 😭🙏

Actually, the tags you are talking about are from @distort-opia ! But yeah I get what you're feeling, i would sell my soul to read this meta analysis too 😭

[yuriinadress]

On the left, Bruce's hunched-up misery as he's telling Khoa he can't let Khoa join him on his training journey because he can't afford the distraction of friendship:

On the right, Khoa's pleasure in fighting alongside Bruce, and happy satisfaction at having successfully manipulated his way into getting to travel with Bruce:

Choose your fighter!

(From Batman: The Knight #4.)

[dracaelus]

Update: HE WON HER OVER!!!

Well, either that or she's convinced that at least he's good for bruce. It's the pervasive nature of ghostbat in action, you see...

Batman #118

The way she's so completly fed up with their romance from day one, oracle is the biggest ghostbat (and ghostmaker) hater and i have proofs

Batman #109 and #112

[everyones-least-favorite-bard]

@ciboriaadastra

ty SO much for the giant wall of tags i love this people should do this more this was a JOY to read

really glad to get a take on it from someone who actually knows about PDs! i do not so i didnt want to touch on it but you put together the shit that kind of threw me off VERY well ty

looking at everything with this lens now it definitely gives a clearer look at khoas motivations in being so intensely overt about his whole I Don't Care Actually bit. again i dont have enough of a foundation in aspd or pds in general to really write out something with this but id love to see someone tackle bruces continuing realization (based off of batman annual 2021/batman inc vol 3 issue 1 iirc) that khoa is in fact, an actual person with real actual feelings and how his actions in accommodating for that could make or break the very very tentative foundations of his renewed friendship/relationship with khoa

springboarding off your point about seeing how bruce's "raw emotion and high empathy nets bruce so many successes + a family and community that respects and loves him" i feel like (from the issues that are currently out) batman inc vol 3 is starting to tackle khoa's dissolution of his ideals/internal stigmas and recognition that maybe he can actually be expressive and emotive and form bonds with people (clownhunter/phantom one arc). its like pretty quickly shaken up after that bc of the whole joker inc bullshit but still! the thoughts are there and turning.

wishing for the millionth time that dc had writers who did research on the shit they haphazardly throw around for drama. sighing. one day

hey uh actually its time for me to vomit some thoughts on ghostbat

i really do love all the content out here for them in the vein of like divorced-core bitchy snarking and whatnot its funny its classic fandom behavior so its got that nostalgia factor its real fun to see but (non derogatory) but! i feel like thats such a watered down way of observing them. a reflection of a reflection of a reflection if u know what i mean

like obviously this isnt a new thing fandom is doing dynamics get dissolved into the simplest, most consumable caricatures of themselves possible all the time. its like a rite of passage at this point. but there are truly so many fascinating directions you could take ghostbat in particular and seeing it dissolved into just. gesturing at the above paragraph. that. is kind of sad.

i think (and this is just my observations from reading batman the knight and vol 3 of batman inc) one of the keys to their dynamic that really gets me is how modern-era (for lack of a better term) ghostmaker is consistently chasing bruce's shadow. i would say most of his actions can be described as being motivated by a desire to understand and be understood by batman.

like. hes living in batman's shadow not because batman's reputation precedes him or because batman is more capable than he is but because there is something fundamental in batman that ghostmaker believes he lacks. it's a key part of the infamous pseudo-break-up-in-the-rain in issue 105 of batman (2016) when bruce leaves khoa for gotham: bruce says, “you’re sick. there’s a part of you that’s broken and you’re angry that it’s not broken in me.” and khoa is reasonably incensed by this and takes a swing at him. they devolve into a fight that ends with the agreement we saw dick reference obliquely in issue 104.

of course, this assertion is categorically false—bruce himself points it out later in the 2021 batman annual. ghostmaker discusses his latest take-down of a major portion of his rogues gallery and how his successful defeat of all of them makes him a fundamentally better crime-fighter/vigilante than batman since he’s doing it without any of the personal vendettas and attachments bruce has.

but the key is that in his recounting of his battle he inadvertently reveals that he does in fact have a connection with each of them: madame midas and kid kawaii in particular. madame midas took down his fathers business when khoa was young and we see in his memory that this is something that deeply upset him and something he never forgot. in his actual take-down of her he brings it back up when he delivers the killing blow (batman annual 2021). with kid kawaii hes visibly upset by her physical appearance being that of a child and regularly does his best in their fights to take her down in a way that can hopefully allow whatever child-like portions of her remain to be saved (batman 108). i believe one of his battles with her actually contributed to her creators having to put an emotional inhibitor in her since some of what he'd said last time they fought got through to her (batman 107/108).

and bruce points this out!! he's somewhat subtle about it, of course, but he points out that no actually, khoa isn't free from this fundamentally very human part of him that wants to help people because it's good and that wants justice for wrongs slighted against him. still in the batman annual issue, he says, “you spent years focused on a single crime lord. that dedication isn’t about glory or efficacy. there’s a reason why this victory matters to you. a reason why you care.” and khoa (after a flashback) gives an embarrassingly flimsy defense in response to this but it’s still very, very clear that he does, in fact, suffer from the same bleeding-heart syndrome bruce does—if perhaps not as intensely.

obviously i have my gripes and whatnot with khoa being tagged as a psychopath since it seems kind of flimsy at best but i don't know enough about aspd-spectrum disorders to really pin it as definitively good or bad but still!! still!! he does have the personal stake in vigilantism that he condemns bruce for having (not even touching on the whole phantom one/clownhunter arc). at the end of the day ghostmaker believes hes missing this unnameable quality of empathy/desire for justice and he thinks that's what separates him from bruce and what makes them incompatible as partners (vigilante partners but also like. take that as you will): it is not.

the reason they cannot work together is because khoa believes he is missing this part of himself and as long as he continues to believe he's incapable of these things he's never going to measure up to his ideal of batman in any of the ways that matter.

on the batman end of things i feel like bruce is most characterized (at least in the batman the knight era of their relationship) by his desire to see khoa “fixed,” for lack of a better word. he initially takes khoa at face value for things, so when khoa gives his whole "i’m a vigilante for the art, the drama" speech he believes him.

it's actually a very sweet kind of naivete—like, of course, why wouldn't khoa know why he's doing this? bruce is very clear in his convictions regarding his motives for vigilantism and he and khoa are at the very least intellectually matched, so why wouldn't khoa be honest? why wouldnt he know the reason why he fights? if minhkhoa khan, the ghostmaker, says he fights crime because he believes in the aestheticism of a job well done, why wouldn’t bruce believe him?

so it becomes a point of contention between them for a very long time because bruce believes this kind of selfish method/motive and the incompatibility between them because of it will eclipse any relationship they have and, looking at the notorious issue 105 rain fight, it technically has. in their first mini-divorce arc in issue 6 of batman the knight in which they have a fistfight in the snow and khoa leaves bruce after beating the shit out of him he spends much of the fight talking, again, about the artistry of crime-fighting and how he enjoys the challenge of it more than the justice. when he wins the fight, he stands over bruce with a gun and contemplates shooting him (contemplates being used generously here: he stands over bruce visibly anguished before dropping the gun) and his excuse for not finishing bruce off is just that it would be, “too easy" (batman the knight issue 6). again: bruce has no reason to question this—even in a brutal physical altercation khoa continues touting his vaguely hedonistic motives behind joining bruce’s crusade. there is no reason why bruce shouldn’t believe him.

its only when he comes back in issue 8 and leaves with bruce towards the league of assassins that we see bruce kind of begin questioning how true khoa’s cited motivations are. obviously he's still pretty deeply embroiled in his Woe: I the Bat am Alone theatre kid bullshit—“this can’t last. and i think we both know it.”—so he spends most of their time together more observing the idea of khoa he has in mind and convincing himself that anything he sees outside of his established framework isn’t real, but we see when they escape ra's and blow up a major league of assassins headquarters that the illusion is starting to slip (batman the knight issue 9).

in their one-v-one combat for the position of demon’s heir (demon’s heart in bruce’s case) bruce’s monologue switches out of his doom-and-gloom khoa and i are incompatible talk into more of the space we see him in around the issue 105 break-up: during their fight bruce says, “there’s nothing to you! there’s nothing there! you know what’s in me?! everything!” which is a less accusatory version of the 105 quote but still in the same vein (batman the knight issue 10). so we see bruce has moved past taking khoa at face value regarding his joy in “the artistry of crime-fighting” but he still hasn’t quite shifted further into recognizing khoa’s other/true motives.

the rain break-up on bruce’s end, then, shows a further evolution of his interpretation of khoa’s behavior: he believes khoa’s desire to continue working with him is founded from a desire to keep bruce on his level—an action rooted in jealousy over something he will never be able to obtain. khoa believes this as well since, as stated before, he hits bruce in the face immediately after it’s pointed out. but even then he is still taking what khoa says at face value: he still believes khoa is only motivated by his thirst for a challenge and that khoa wants bruce by his side more so he isn’t alone in his empty hedonism than for actual wanting of bruce himself. this informs his reaction in issue 104 after he and robin chase a criminal to singapore: after his undisclosed argument with khoa he is visibly upset over the state of their relationship but believes it irreparable due to the differences in their morals.

i think from there though, bruce only begins picking out the gaps in the mess that is khoa (that we see anyway) when khoa’s telling him about his grand exploits after they meet up again. while their earlier conversations (ie; batman asking ghostmaker to stay in late issue 105) definitely reveal bruce’s newer perspective on khoa, it’s really only the batman annual 2021 conversation where we see bruce make the jump to further filling in what khoa is (very loudly) not saying. another tumblr post also mentioned the scene being the first recorded mention of bruce saying khoa’s name after the rain fight—which considering the last time we saw him say it was The Fucking Rain Break Up Again, sort of thematically implies he’s reached another level of understanding with khoa.

so i’d say on batman’s end he very badly wants to understand khoa, but he’s also only just starting to realize that he doesn’t have enough of the pieces.

this got away from me tbh but the point being: ghostbat has more nuance than a lot of incorrect-quote-y type content has room for.