#fandom discourse is stupid anyways

[goonssquadd]

Sometimes you see a mutual on the wrong side of an argument and you just shut your mouth and keep scrolling

[jewishjon]

Look, I love Jon as much as the next person but I think some of you have gone so far along the ‘Jon is a sad little man who did nothing wrong’ route that you’ve genuinely forgotten all the times he held power in a situation or like. Made a decision that hurt people

[statementlou]

https://www.tumblr.com/louisupdates/754934426217152513/goodbye-faith-in-the-future-world-tour-272024?source=share

did he or did he not lose fans then?

I will answer this because this anon actually brings a concrete question to the table rather than just "hurhur but you're a larrie??" (tell me you can't actually refute any of our points…). Anyway this post shows the decrease in Louis instagram followers between the screenshots taken directly after the release of Faith in the Future in Nov '22, when he changed his bio to promote that album and the tour tickets, and now, when he changed it again to mention the current release. But I'm putting that response under a cut because I'm tired of the actual POINT of all this nonsense getting lost in a sea of made up things people insist are important:

There is no rational argument you can make to say that Louis has less fans now than he did 2, 4, or 6 years ago. You don't need a spreadsheet of details you need to USE YOUR EYES! He has gone from filling theaters to filling arenas and stadiums. His second album made a higher chart position than his first album. His festival has doubled in size EVERY year of its existence. And for that matter: his insta post engagement numbers remain about the same (despite the fact that older posts should have way MORE likes due to having been there longer, even aside from follower counts.) SO WHO FUCKING CARES ABOUT HIS INSTA FOLLOWER NUMBER???? Serious question: what does the word "fans" mean if these things aren't what matters? ALL of this quibbling about what he should do to make things better and people can't even see that THINGS AREN'T BAD.

Anyway to address the specific question- (con't......)

NO- HE DID NOT LOSE FANS. HE LOST SOME INSTA FOLLOWERS. THESE ARE NOT THE SAME THING. As I said above, literally what does it mean to lose fans if that number change coincides with him having higher sales, more audience members, and higher engagement than ever before? Whatever he lost ISN'T FANS. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant factor was something like a bot purge, but also yes: I'm sure a lot of casuals followed him around the time of his big album release and later unfollowed him. That's extremely normal because that's how casual engagement works, and why the definition of fan really matters. Louis and his team understand this and have referenced it repeatedly, talking about how lucky he is to have *us* specifically, to have the kind of dedicated fanbase he has, to have the KIND of fans he does who will allow him to do what HE wants. @dogsliampaynedoesntinstagram named the issue of depth vs breadth with regard to fans a long time ago, and pointed out why having DEPTH is so much more important. It's like this- artists who are on top 40 radio have more numbers on things like insta follows, and for a time on sales and tickets. But those aren't FANS- they're people with a casual interest. And as soon as that person isn't being forced in their ears 10x a day, those people lose interest and stop supporting them, stop buying stuff and unfollow, and those artists end up doing the 'opener on the jingle ball' circuit rather than their own tours. One Direction as a whole, and Louis maybe most of all or near to at this point, have something MUCH MORE VALUABLE than that- DEPTH FANS. Louis has fans who will support him even if he takes years to release music, or stops parading around with a pretend girlfriend to stay in the headlines at least once a month, or completely changes his image and genre, and that is UNHEARD OF. It's ASTONISHING and worth SO MUCH MORE. And they get that! THAT is why he always bragging about us, why industry people he works with are always so agog about us, why he will do anything for US- not for randos. He is also growing his breadth- and it's OBVIOUSLY WORKING whatever his follower counts are, but that is always going to be secondary to doing things for THE FANDOM because that is his sustainable business model. That is what keeps him onstage and reaching number one. And not coincidentally, the things they do are also working to grow that- much more valuable- commodity. So the fact that that's exactly what these chuckleheads complain about- that he does things that are just fandom facing or serving rather than everything being aimed at recruiting casual fans- does nothing but betray how completely they, unlike Louis and his team, misunderstand the actual drivers of his (actual, existing, happening) success. Luckily for Louis, he and his team rely on their own data harvesting (they do a LOT of it) and growth metrics (they're off the charts) rather than the smug assumptions of random (mostly quite new to this) fans and the few bitter people leading the complaining about everything Louis does.

[steakout-05]

it's so funny seeing the negative fan reactions to Jax being even more of an asshole than he was in episode 1. like first of all, how can you not enjoy his dickhead antics and growing frustrations at the things that aren't allowing him to be a dickhead 100% of the time. i think it's really entertaining to watch him be a complete jackass to everything and everyone! and second of all, i feel like this is an effect of twitter fandom kiddies always praising a character who's a perfect angel or a "bad boy but he's bad in a good way..." character and deeming characters "immoral" as soon as they do something bad. as soon as that character they attached themselves to isn't what they thought they were, they get super mad about it, even though Jax hasn't really changed at all since episode 1. it's like seeing Jax have more opportunities to be an utterly selfish and destructive asshole put them off from the character entirely because "ohh he's mean now". it's so weird. like god forbid a character has flaws or does objectively horrible things that makes them more entertaining /sarc.

it's kinda like the whole discourse surrounding Pomni "abandoning" Ragatha in the pilot. a lot of people were deeming Pomni to be a terrible character because she did something that could be perceived as "morally incorrect" when 1. she was scared and confused out of her mind and practically in survival mode the entire time she was there, 2. she literally just met Ragatha a while ago and wasn't in the right place to properly prioritise anything but her own survival, and 3. characters are allowed to do """immoral""" things because it's interesting, it makes them more complex and it drives the plot. oh yeah, and they're not real!!! they can't hurt anyone!!! it's so confusing how people will see a character with flaws and then get so enraged about how immoral they are, while completely missing the point as to why a character has flaws in the first place.

i just find it funny how people saw Jax in the first episode, visualised a bad boy version of him in their heads and then got super mad when he was even meaner deliberately in the second one and isn't exactly what they wanted him to be. like you guys just pulled a full 180 and went from loving him to despising him in and instant. characters will have something deserving of a character arc and twitter fandom kiddies will become livid about it.

by the way, i thought Jax being even more of an asshole shined a brighter light on his troubled nature. like,,, to me it seems Jax's asshole-ish attitude is kind of a mask for deeper insecurities, especially when you see his face soften during Kaufmo's funeral, before quickly replacing it with anger and walking away. i think he's grappling with some heavy shit and trying to hide it behind a troublemaker attitude and constantly causing chaos and destruction to distract himself. i think that's why he got so angry and frustrated during the second episode, because he couldn't always have his way. he's definitely hiding something. whether it has something to do with Kaufmo, his situation or both, i wanna see what happens and what's going on with him.

personally, i want Jax to get worse, because it would be a very interesting look at how he deals with the circus compared to everyone else. i want him to get so aggressive and asshole-ish that he does something he deeply regrets (in reference to what a tweet from Gooseworx teases). to me, the biggest allure of TADC is the way the characters react to what's going on around them. each character has such a different way of coping with everything and i think Jax's way of coping, desiring chaos and death and destruction, would be an interesting look into who he is as a character. i want his harmful coping skills to drive him to a breaking point because hell yeah, character development!!! i want to see what makes the asshole into something closer to not really being as much of an asshole as he started out as.

[aithusarosekiller]

regulus wanted muggleborns dead and you ship him with lily? you're a disgusting bigot. james and lily would spit on regulus's grave he deserves no respect and you are a fascist sympathiser

Hey so I hate to break it to you babydoll but these characters are actually fictional!

You should be worrying about real bigots instead of fictional characters that aren't hurting any real people and don't have ANY say in the morality of the people that like them. Trying to compromise somebody's morals over a FICTIONAL character not only reduces real issues down to a pathetic little play-card so you can try to one-up someone, it erases any real experiences they may have with bigotry as a REAL PERSON on the basis of...made up stories? My people actually are being 'exterminated' as we speak and nobody seems to care so you saying this BULLSHIT not only reminded me of this, it makes me feel sick to be compared to the people who are actively trying to kill ME and my brethren when I know I am nothing like them and some made up people do not dictate that.

If you looked at my page for a single second you'd know that I hc Regulus as a meek young boy who was tricked into making wrong decision and had great opportunity to grow into a good person (which is also Sirius' opinion) but even if I didn't....it doesn't matter because he's not real. And if we're being all holier-than-thou about characters, you don't know Lily at all if you think she'd spit on anyone's grave, especially that of a brainwashed child who appears to have tried their best to escape the cult-mindset they were fed.

On another note, this implies that watching ofmd means that you must want to blow people up or watching Hannibal means you eat people in your free time. There's no correlation and trying to make fandom about morality in order to push your preferences as 'better' than another interpretation is ridiculous and cheapens real humanitarian issues.

So get a life, go away, and get bigger problems xxx

[b0ylik3r]

I think it's weird to constantly engage with discourse and people whining about others disliking your ship... just ignore it. Why fester in discontent and anger when you can just, you know, carry on and enjoy what you like in your own space? It's really not that hard to just ignore others.

the reason i do that is because ZADRers get harassed every day (especially on Twitter) for "shipping a proship" that isnt actually a proship. which is where that DNI comes from. ZADR is not a proship. i think its stupid to ask people to not interact because you think something that very clearly is not wrong is wrong. ive seen my friends and mutuals have ZADR antis come INTO their space and harass them for it. it's horrible. it IS that hard to ignore it. if they're so active about it being a proship that they have to have a DNI banner about it, they're probably the same people who harass my friends. that's why i interact anyway. we shouldn't be ostracized in our own fandom. i shouldn't have to go check if someone has ZADR dni on their page when i accidentally interact so that i dont get blocked on sight because that's the standard. this fandom is supposed to be a space for everyone who enjoys invader zim, not a space for those who believe a certain thing and not for others. thats why i interact with ZADR antis. thank you for the ask, it helps me express my feelings on the topic. :)

[parkitaco]

i will admit that my knowledge of the current st discourse rn is limited to what my correct and right mutuals have posted about but i will say that arguing that lonnie byers is not an abuser when that’s literally intentionally textually implied whilst simultaneously insisting that henry creel was abused bc of evidence from like one singular frame is the kind of mental gymnastics typically only seen in toxic alpha male subreddits

[reigningm4x]

The way the same people who scream and cry about Max not being passionate and is bored of winning, are now screaming and crying about him voicing his frustrations with the car because ...he wants to keep winning... please do you know how stupid you sound

[ask-artsy-oncie]

Why is it that people intrinsically tie fan-culture to mass-consumerism? "You're not a real fan unless you buy all the official merch/multiples of certain merch items" and this pressure to be validated by how much money you pay.

To a degree, I do get it. I'm a collector. Much less so now than I was back in college (I have bills to pay now that I didn't back then), but I do still consider myself so. I like to find obscure merchandise (for me, most of the fun is in the hunt) for the things I love, and I like to display that stuff proudly in my home. But if someone did not, in fact, do that, I wouldn't claim them to like that same thing less. I'd probably actually commend them for being more practical with their money. (Like, yes, it's healthy to get yourself treats, but I need to be clear that it is not financially wise to be spending full paychecks on every piece of media from an obscure 90's video game series you can get your hands on.)

This concept of tying validity to money spent specifically on official merch really only serves to benefit the copyright holders of the media you enjoy - it doesn't benefit you, it certainly doesn't benefit other fans, and it barely even benefits the individual artists who work so hard to create the thing you love (within a case-by-case basis). It's a form of corporate ass-kissing and creates these environments within fandom that actively discourages people from liking media with no active official merch, such as more obscure media or old media - at the very least if actively discourages them from sharing their love for it.

There are games are no longer available to buy outside of overpriced secondhand markets made for consoles that can barely be played on modern TVs, there are shows that never got home media releases, there are songs by musicians who didn't get industry deals. There is some media that can be exceptionally loved by people who cannot give money to their copyright holders in order to enjoy them, period. These pieces of media are worth caring about because someone out there damn well cares about them, and finds value in them. The passion they have for preserving them and talking about them means more than any amount of money ever will.

And speaking of passion, when the hell did hand-made fan merch become "lesser than"??? How does dropping money on something somehow mean more than the time, dedication, AND money someone pours into making their own fan art from scratch? For someone who was born in the US in the 90's, but who's first media special interests were from the early 80's and European comics, I had NO avenue of expressing my love for these pieces of media outside of fanart. I started making my own T-shirts, my own dolls, my own keychains - and to be clear these things looked like SHIT!! I was a child, I had never done something like that before, of course it looked bad. But it was an authentic display of passion. Do you think it'd be fair to gatekeep that declaration of passion from someone just because other people were born in the right time and place to be "real" fans? I certainly hope not.

Kill the damn cops in your head and stop bending to the will of copyright holders. Whatever is or isn't a "real" display of love has nothing to do with the sheer amount of money spent. Shopping addiction is also a real and harmful thing that shouldn't be made the standard for expressing love. Gatekeeping fan culture does nothing but make said fan communities not want you in their community. Kindling hierarchical spaces so you can be sat atop can - and I say this from experience - only end in self-cannibalization. You have nothing to gain long-term from this mentality.

[musicalmoritz]

LMAO there’s no way someone made a callout blog for TBHK, you people have way too much free time on your hands

[sammygender]

did you. watch any of the show. i dislike dabb era as much as the next guy but this is not the argument to make😭dean becomes angrier and harder every season - hes never really the same post hell. sam ‘softens as a character’ (really not the way i’d put it but whatever) every season too - he’s never the same after the demon blood & lucifer rising bc he blames himself so heavily. s4 is when dean really starts on his whole angry controlling patriarch thing (not that he didn’t have it in earlier seasons too. but.) and s5 is when sam kinda retreats into himself and starts believing hes wrong & evil all the time for wanting stuff for himself. those are both part of kripke era……..

[thatbuddie]

you seriously cannot make this up: you have people reblogging fic featuring a racist character as half of the main ship in the morning then trying to give morality lessons in the evening by calling others homophobic over a joke.

THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE, BABES.

[flashhwing]

I’m here to say that you may absolutely express negativity about veilguard to me as long as it’s not stupid. hate on it for real reasons, of which there are plenty, most of which I’m ignoring because of the hype but would be glad to discuss in a civilized manner. no forced positivity in this zone this is a safe space. unless your criticism is dumb as fuck then I will point and laugh

[saturnshari]

tiny fandom rant

thinking abt how being an Intellectual Brown woman isolates me from fandom experiences bc since i call out orientalism/racism against swana and my people in media that makes me too "anti" but the shit id be into and ship since i was 13 would land me 100ft deep into "proship" territory....

[stressedjester]

Me if I ever find whoever decided to take "queer people aren't a monolith" and decided to spin it into the weird "queer people of separate identities NEVER have overlapping experiences with each other and are ALWAYS different all the time and to suggest or have experienced otherwise makes you homophobic/transphobic/lesbiphobic" rhetoric that I keep seeing everywhere

[lord-squiggletits]

Idk if my previous posts were unclear but I don't remotely hate any Optimus version that isn't IDW or think they suck. Every Optimus is good and there's a fan (or multiple fans!) of every version of OP no matter how obscure or underrated (as well as all the other characters).

What's more questionable (or at least annoying) is when fandom ignores canon character personalities in favor of writing specific archetypes that are either out of character or repetitive/stereotyped to the point of annoyance. As an example of this, it would be a female character being called the Team Mom just because she's a woman existing in a group of (primarily male) characters even if she's not remotely motherly or nurturing. Or, as a more topical example, how often I've seen Transformers ships where even though both characters are canonically masculine (or gender neutral), fanartists love to turn one of the characters small and weak (or even outright feminine) to turn the ship into Strong Dominant Seme and Sweet Cute Uke to fit a specific kink or romantic fantasy, even if it's a disservice/OOC to portray those characters like that.

In other words, a fandom's popularity of certain characters, ships, headcanons, etc is often more informed by tropes and forcing canon to adhere to one's personal tastes, as opposed to approaching canon and trying to understand it on its own terms. I'm not talking about the quality of the source material, but rather the way that the fandom interprets the source materials in ways that don't make any sense, approach it in bad faith, or just generally don't care about canon at all. So I'm not saying one OP is better than another, my problem is when fandom consistently focuses on certain stereotypes or flanderizations of a character, and then any character that doesn't fit the popular (often stereotyped) mold is ignored or virulently rejected. In other words, I think popular fandom often does a DISSERVICE to characters whether they love them or hate them, it just takes different forms.

So, just as an example, I think one fandom caricature of Optimus that I see a lot (and heavily dislike) is making Optimus some sort of shrinking wallflower type who's innocent, sweet, and virginal, in contrast to an opposite caricature of Megatron that's big, strong, dominant, and rugged, and making ship art that forces the characters into some kind of seme/uke or borderline heteronormative romance. Despite the fact that canon Optimus (in, say, TFP for example) is tall, broadly built, deep voiced, dignified, assertive, and strong (physically and morally), completely incorrect interpretations of him as a shy feminized uke type are still pretty common to find. And it makes you ask yourself why it is so many people make MOP ship art of them of The Small One and The Large One or The Small, Cute One and The Big, Violent One when it's completely different from canon. It feels as if such fanart is made by people who just want to see seme/uke style slash ships, and if canon doesn't give them what they want, they'll simply trash it and replace it with their own version, even if it's completely OOC.

So when I said in my other post that people don't like IDW Optimus because he can't be fit into caricatures like happy dad or shy twink, I'm not saying it to say "other OPs who resemble that suck," I'm saying it to express "Fandom tends to simplify characters into easily palatable and comfortable tropes, and when they encounter a character they can't do that with, they respond by ignoring or even hating on that character."

Other versions of Optimus have the problem where fandom turns them into a stereotype instead of the actual character they are, e.g. portraying TFA OP as some poor abused damsel with no self confidence and crippling anxiety being abused by his superiors, and then they talk more about this fake uwu smoll bean cinnamon roll version of TFA OP than they do about actual canon TFA OP. And honestly I can't think of any prominent content/meta about G1 OP that isn't just "he plays basketball and does funny one liners and is Team Dad/Grandpa." (Hell, you even get that with non-Optimus characters that get simplified to just sexy twink, old grandpa, comedy relief, evil ex, Diversity Win-- She's A Lesbian, third wheel to the favored ship, etc even though there's way more depth to them than just their surface level stereotype.)

IDW OP's problem is that he can't be stereotyped like that so instead the fandom ignores him. He's not small, so they can't stereotype him as a skinny twink getting topped by a burly uke. He's not jovial or happy go lucky or extroverted, so they can't stereotype him as Team Dad or Comedy Relief. He's assertive, blunt, and has a temper, so they can't stereotype him as a shy wallflower in need of protecting. He makes catastrophic mistakes and is responsible for bad things happening, so they can't stereotype him into a sweet cinnamon roll who has never done anything wrong in his whole life or The Infinitely Wise and Kind Paragon. There's no Big Bad Authority Figure who was mean to IDW OP and traumatized him, so they can't excuse the bad things he did as "he's traumatized so he couldn't help it" and wave away his flaws as "it's his abuser's fault, they made him this way." IDW OP has the kind of depression where he's grumpy, shut off, and angry-- as opposed to the shy, sad kind of depression that just stares forlornly out of the window in a beautifully tragic way-- so they can't make him into a sad woobie kicked around unfairly by life.

Or I guess they just stereotype IDW OP as "evil bastard with no redeeming qualities that's mean to everyone for no reason, plus the writers forced everyone to like him just because he's Optimus Prime" even though that isn't accurate either.

Put bluntly, IDW OP forces fandom to contend with the idea that someone can be a good person with good intentions but still fuck up on a massive scale and maybe end up hurting more than they helped. IDW OP is messy, ugly, flawed, mean, stoic, closed off. When IDW OP has mental breakdowns or has his feelings hurt, he's loud and angry and harsh, and the consequences of what he did while he was unwell continue to haunt him long after. In other words, he actually experiences negative emotions the way a real person would, and sometimes when he's under the influence of negative emotions, he lashes out or does stupid things (like a real person might) instead of inoffensively crying in a corner somewhere. He isn't sanitized enough for a fandom that only wants Perfect Pure Good Optimus Who Never Hurts Anyone Even By Accident, so instead of IDW OP's mistakes and dark moments being treated as the logical end point of a person put in constant no-win situations until he breaks, he gets treated as if his mistakes and flaws make him an irredeemable bastard with no good qualities who should've fucked up less often to make fans actually like him.

And this is all in a fandom where 90% of the characters are war criminals and a good half of them have massacred organic planets. But god forbid IDW Optimus ever make a bad decision in a stressful situation. Or be mean to someone. Or have a character arc about how blindly idolizing people as paragons ends badly for everyone involved because no one can be that perfect. He is simply The Worst Optimus Ever and there's absolutely nothing about him worth discussing.

And just to be clear, the problem isn't the fact that some people don't like IDW OP, or he's just not their thing and they don't care.

The problem is the fact that he's consistently and actively hated by the fanbase who makes a concentrated effort to say he sucks and make sure none of their fan works ever include him. It's literally at a level where I stopped looking in the Optimus tag on this website because I was tired of people randomly going "and btw IDW OP sucks and I want to drown him in a ditch" in posts that weren't even about IDW, and I stopped looking for MegOP fic on AO3 because most of it is IDW Megatron/clearly TFP or G1 inspired continuity soup Optimus. Places that are Optimus friendly for Optimus fans, where I could reasonably expect to find positive conversations, but instead get sucker punched by hate about the character The Space Is About. And I can't even have conversations asking about why they do, bc the way 90% of them talk, I can tell they literally just didn't read the comics or deliberately misinterpreted the story.

I find it bizarre and frankly, tragic, that the hate train for IDW OP is so pervasive that people actively erase and replace him from fan works IN THE IDW UNIVERSE in a way that no other character is targeted in. I have tried so hard to understand why IDW OP gets this sort of hate and erasure when other characters who were as bad or worse than him have perfectly normal takes about them that go "yeah he kinda sucks but he's cool and I like him" or "who cares if he's problematic IRL, it's a story." The only conclusion I can come to is that because Optimus Prime (TM) has a specific brand image and is locked into being a cultural icon, he's held to a standard of The Ideal Perfect Hero instead of the way better standard of "Is he an interesting, well written character?"