#zadr discourse

[b0ylik3r]

I dont wanna get myself involved in any more ZADR discourse, but I also don't want misinfo to spread around and people to get discouraged or anything like I had been for a while. So I'm going to say this: Zim in Invader Zim is most likely a child.

There are a plethora of reasons I think this, but if you don't care then scroll. I'm going to provide my reasoning under the cut.

My first reason is that from a writing standpoint, there is absolutely nothing appealing about the dynamic between Dib and Zim if Zim is an adult. What would or do you find enjoyment out of their dynamic if they are not meant to be foils of one another like the show HEAVILY implies them to be NUMEROUS TIMES? If Zim is a child, their dynamic becomes "2 children want parental approval and go against each other for it, when in reality the approval and love they seek is unattainable because the parental figures will never give them it. They would be better off being friends or allies, but instead keep fighting to be loved because they're dumb kids and don't realize that it's fruitless and dumb". If Zim is an adult, their dynamic becomes "Immature man cannot beat child". What is to be enjoyed or explored there?

My second reason is that Zim acts like a child in a multitude of different ways. His interactions with The Tallest, his general immaturity, and even how he surrounds himself. He goes to school. He has made himself robot parents to support that idea. He needs different disguises to act like an adult. Again, from a writing standpoint, if he was an adult infiltrating a school building and pretending to be a kid, that's just fucking weird. I don't think Jhonen is that type of person. I don't think the writers are that type of people.

Also on this subject is the episode Tak: The Hideous New Girl. At the point of the episode, Zim was trying to impress and "crush on" and be the boyfriend of this middle school girl. It doesn't matter if Tak was actually irken. It doesn't matter if she is the same age as him actually. It doesn't change that Zim was trying to get into a human relationship with what he thought was a middle school girl. If he is an adult, that's pretty fucking weird. Again, I don't think Jhonen is that type of person and I don't think the writers are that type of people.

The "flying ships before you were born" only proves that on Irk, he was an adult or at least the age that would permit him to fly ships. Calendars are manmade, why would irkens use the same years? Zim's age could also easily translate into human years into the late tween years. We also have to think logically about things.

Also, I sometimes feel like people are forgetting that Irk is a dystopian society. They are a hyper-militarized alien race that codes people's brains on the daily and does not wait for the children to grow up even a little before they start military training (or, at least training for military training). What morals prevent them from using child labor or child soldiers? We also have to remember that in accordance to The Trial, Zim was a smeet or older allowed into violent chemicals and resources that can kill, like it did Tallest Miyuki and Tallest Spork. That, in a way, proves that Irkens are not above dangerous child labor.

One other argument I have is that in Enter The Florpus, during the species change clip, Zim, Dib and Gaz switch species. The thing is, Dib and Gaz look the same as Zim in this clip. They don't become little smeets, they don't become tiny kids. They become Zim's age. Zim also does not become an old man in this clip. He stays the same as Dib and Gaz. Being that these are their canon human/irken translations, I don't see how someone could still defend this.

You could take all of this and say "Okay, but ZADR is still proship because they are abusive to each other so why are you so pressed". But like I said in a previous post, there is a major difference between "haha 2 people fight each other n get hurt haha" and "this adult man is grooming this child sexually". That's not funny. That isn't cartoony. That is a fully serious topic taken seriously in every single media that it is represented in. Cartoony unserious fighting has been a staple for years in animation and media. Grooming is not cartoony. That is why so many people have a problem with it. Some people don't enjoy shipping things that are seriously fucked up in the real world like that, or shipping proships.

This all started because of one singular tweet Jhonen made that you all believed. I bet if he tweeted "guys invader zim didnt actually happen and dib was hallucinating the whole time, lmao dream theory is canon", some of you would believe it.

I leave you off with this: "If it looks, sounds & acts like a kid, it's a kid, no matter if it's actually 1000 years old or not."

[peantisdeliriouts]

I love this level of cognitive dissonance. Like yeah dude I’m sure you’re enjoying your old man yaoi with a serious age gap and clear abuse in a God honoring way ZADR lovers are actually degenerate FREAKS.

Like imagine thinking you’re not like the rest of the freaks cus you’re a morally acceptable freak. Be so fr right now holy shit

[fanboyvini]

i've been noticing this pattern for a while now, and i can't think of anything other than that word that starts with homo and ends with phobia

[optimizim]

discourse about what jhonen did or didn't declare as canon means absolutely nothing to me, considering jhonen has made such outrageous claims as "zim's favorite chipmunks movie is road chip"

[aperfecttimeforscreaming]

It must feel nice to be morally pure and dismiss an entire group of people (who make up the backbone of a 20+ year long fandom) over a ship that makes you feel icky.

Too bad I have an independently thinking brain, and don't need the approval of others to do things in a way I personally enjoy! :)

[emeraldspiral]

Looking at Invader Zim age discourse trying to claim that X number of years in one species's lifespan is the equivalent of 1 human year makes all of my brain cells want to commit die. It's "Loki is 16" all over again. I'm begging yall to get off social media and take a science class cause Jesus Christ how do you function in society being this ignorant?

Different species do not mature at the same rate relative to their lifespan. Grogu being a toddler for 50 years is not a thing that actually happens in nature.

Let's look at dogs for a second. It's commonly said that a dog ages 7 years per 1 human year. Most dogs live about 10-13 years, or 70-91 years, which sounds about right, doesn't it? But some dogs live to see 20-31, or 140-217, way longer than any human has ever lived. But let's also consider their early development. Dogs can start walking after just a couple of weeks while human babies take several months. Dogs can reach adulthood and sexual maturity in less than a year. Some 7 year old children do experience premature puberty, but this is far from being the norm and does not mean they are fully mature adults. Additionally, it is said that a fully adult dog only has the cognition of a 3-5 year-old human child. No matter which way you look at it, you can not equate the way a dog matures and ages to human development and lifespan.

Most newborn animal species, regardless of how long or short their lives are, are much further along in their development than human babies are, closer to toddlers than infants. Many are able to walk or crawl within a few days or even minutes after birth. Compared to most animal babies, human babies would be considered extremely premature.

With Zim, we saw onscreen that as a newborn he could walk, stand upright, jump, grab and hold things, and speak, more like a human 3-5 year-old than an infant. If we were going by the logic of "1 Irken year is 10 human years" that goes around in fanon, 10-year-old Zim should still be a baby, only barely be able to walk, pick up objects, and say a few words. But in the unfinished episode The Trial, concept art for 10-year-old Zim shows him looking like about what you'd expect the actual Irken equivalent of a 10-year-old to look like; taller than a newborn, but smaller than an adult, which for Irkens doesn't get much taller than a human 12-year-old with rare exceptions. There really is no basis what-so-ever to assume that Zim has only developed to the equivalent of 12 or 16, especially when he has a job in the military and lives on his own with no supervision. I don't know why anybody who headcanons that for shipping reasons would even want that to be the case when by that logic it would mean Dib and Gaz and any other human characters they want to pair him with would very quickly grow up to be adults while he remained a child.

In most cases, when dealing with extremely long-lived fantasy/sci-fi races, if the rate of aging is addressed at all, it is much more likely that the characters develop at the same rate as humans until they reach their 20s, at which point they'd be fully mature physically and from then on their bodies would simply not break down and display signs of aging as quickly as a humans. It makes no sense for a humanoid species to remain in a state of helpless infancy for decades or spend hundreds of years going through puberty. The only times you'll usually ever see something like that in fiction is if it's being played for a joke, or because the writers actually wanted to address how messed-up it would be to be to go through developmental stages like that for so long. Usually it's not even a matter of aging, the characters are just vampires or androids or something stuck at whatever age for eternity, yearning to grow up but never being able to.

Keep in mind however, that physical age and maturity are separate things. There's no reason to think that just because a character is immortal or long-lived that they mature as slowly as they age. Maturity has a lot more to do with life experience than physical growth, especially once your brain finishes developing at around 25. Often in fiction, when dealing with an immortal adolescent, being condescended to as if they were a child is a source of great frustration because they do have the mind of an adult. On the flip side, even in real life some people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s may be stuck in a state of arrested development, with teenagers surpassing their level of maturity.

My personal interpretation of Zim is that he's a manchild. He probably aged more or less like a human until his 20s and then stayed physically 20-25 for decades or centuries until the time the show takes place. He's just so immature he finds his equal in a 12-year-old human child. However, if he were to stay on earth long enough, I could see him maturing along with his peers at skool and starting to act more his age when they get into their 20s, (assuming he actually follows them to hi skool and college and doesn't just keep repeating 6th grade forever). If he stuck around Dib and Gaz into their 30s and beyond, I could see him continuing to match their level of maturity into their old age while he remains physically young.

If you have a problem with Zim being canonically an adult pretending to be a child, I don't know what to tell you guys. Like, if you think it's sad, that's the point. Literally, in the commentary for Mortos, Jhonen says that's the joke. That Zim's "basically an old man" getting into slap-fights with actual children and it's funny because it's so pathetic. If you think it's creepy, that's also kinda the point. He's a villain. The fact that he's not even human and that he's plotting the demise of the human race is already disturbing. He steals a bunch of children's organs in like, the third episode. He used time-traveling rubber piggies to maim and eventually kill Dib starting from when he was a toddler and then took a victory sip after watching the life leave his eyes. The entire concept of Zim is inherently sinister and predatory. But at the same time, Zim being a sexual threat is completely off the table. Canonically, he's aroace. He has no reproductive organs and no sex drive. He finds humans repulsive, and between that, his germophobia, and general paranoia it would be far more in-character for him to be terrified of the prospect of unwanted sexual advances than to be a sexual predator himself. That's why I don't think anybody thought too hard about Zim trying to woo Tak when he thought she was an actual human child, and why you shouldn't either. Yes, he had ill intentions toward her, because he is a bad guy, but those intentions were entirely chaste. Zim is not a threat to children because he might try to manipulate them into inappropriate relationships, he's a threat to children because he might manipulate them into helping him enslave their race.

There's no need to hand-wring about problematic age discourse. We're talking about a horror comedy that was cancelled two decades ago where the prospect of romance was never on the table to begin with. There is no such thing as a canon-compliant romance fanfic, and all fanfic by definition is non-canon anyway so it doesn't even matter. Make the characters whatever ages you want and tweak their characterization or circumstances in whatever ways you need to make whatever the fuck story you wanna tell work. It's all make-believe anyway. You don't need to make up fake quotes or deny or creatively interpret real quotes or bend yourselves into pretzels to prove the age headcanons you use to justify why you do or don't like a ship.

But for fucks sake, if you're gonna go there at least pretend like you know a single goddamned thing about the way aging, development, and maturity work before you unironically make talking points following the same logic as "According to my calculations, this character first portrayed by Tom Hiddleston at age 29 is actually 16".

[juleteinthrum]

Zasr? Zadr? Zatr? Is it not enough to be a gay little bug

[minu-moni]

If you dislike ZaDr because of an alleged age gap but ship TaDr, your problem isn’t the age gap.

[1nvad3rz1m]

@rahedlinoodles

it is but zasr content is kind of hard to navigate bc like a good chunk of zasr art is made by people that explicitly say zadr dni or the like as cool as zasr is and i encourage it zagrs still going though yeah but i really miss the like strange characters the niche...u know

[b0ylik3r]

I think it's weird to constantly engage with discourse and people whining about others disliking your ship... just ignore it. Why fester in discontent and anger when you can just, you know, carry on and enjoy what you like in your own space? It's really not that hard to just ignore others.

the reason i do that is because ZADRers get harassed every day (especially on Twitter) for "shipping a proship" that isnt actually a proship. which is where that DNI comes from. ZADR is not a proship. i think its stupid to ask people to not interact because you think something that very clearly is not wrong is wrong. ive seen my friends and mutuals have ZADR antis come INTO their space and harass them for it. it's horrible. it IS that hard to ignore it. if they're so active about it being a proship that they have to have a DNI banner about it, they're probably the same people who harass my friends. that's why i interact anyway. we shouldn't be ostracized in our own fandom. i shouldn't have to go check if someone has ZADR dni on their page when i accidentally interact so that i dont get blocked on sight because that's the standard. this fandom is supposed to be a space for everyone who enjoys invader zim, not a space for those who believe a certain thing and not for others. thats why i interact with ZADR antis. thank you for the ask, it helps me express my feelings on the topic. :)

[mushy-madness]

Your anti-recapkid posts are super disappointing. IDC if you don't like them, but accusing them of being a shitty person is honestly just not it. They literally were abused for years (still are being abused) and did, in fact, have their life ruined by antis. It's is pretty much entirely their fault they were out of work and had their health decline. Like yeah they constantly talk about how much they hate life because people who can't mind their own fucking business had the audacity to stalk and harass them for years and ruin any sense of safety or comfort they had. Clearly you've fallen into the nonsense anti-recapkid nonsense that got them abused in the first place. TL;DR, their drawings don't make them a bad person and neither does their feelings towards their life situation. Fucks sake :/

TL:DR dont care if you like them. ----------- but srsly if u did read it you'll prob get why i hate them. i hated them because they chose to double down, i hated them because they continue to create such content that will keep them away from their dream, that they continue being in unhealthy circles with terrible people because they dont want to stop and stay in their comfort zone. ofc drawing art doesn't make u a bad person but like with everything else there are limits, esp when i comes to children fictional or not. what happened to them is horrible and i wish them a better life but there is only so much you can excuse before you realize that they're also the problem to their own life.

[peantisdeliriouts]

It’s so weird to me to see modern ZADR fans who are no older than like 15 whining about shipping. Like, hate to burst your bubble, but the vast majority of people don’t care about “proship” or whatever the fuck. It’s not a real issue (your personal disgust and trauma doesn’t mean that content isn’t allowed to exist) and I’m tired of people hyper focusing on it like it is.

Your feelings towards taboo or “disgusting” art are completely valid, but you have no right to treat people poorly or dish out abusive behavior over it. You certainly have no right to tell those people you wished they died, either.

It’s not the “proshippers” who ruin a fandom, it’s the fandom newbies who are obsessed with purity culture and fake progressive ideas that spread hate and abuse without hesitation.

Stop trying to tell yourself that it’s okay to be bigots and abusive towards the “right people” for the “right reasons”. You make fandom spaces, places that are meant to be fun and chill, highly stressful. Nobody should have to constantly walk on eggshells because you can’t control your temper.

No, I don’t deserve to die. No, I don’t deserve to be harassed. No, I don’t deserve threats. No, I don’t deserve abuse.

Break out of these abusive behaviors, stop bullying and harassing (abusing) people over things that don’t matter or exist. Sincerely, I hope the teens that think this way grow out of that shit. You’re better than this.

I’m not a “proshipper” as I don’t subscribe to such terminally online bullshit, but since you terminally online netizens will call me that anyway, let me break down “proship”.

The word “pro” means you are for something, like being Pro-abortion means you’re for abortion rights. Proshipping just means you believe ships have a right to exist regardless of your own feelings.

Ship and let ship. That was the norm not even a decade ago. Let’s bring back that norm instead of making abuse the new norm.

[fanboyvini]

I did this because i am very tired of being falsely accused of a horrible crime that is ped0philia for liking a ship since i was 12 years old. It's so exhausting mentally, and i want to show my points.

And with that i rest my case, continuing to ship my first mlm ship that i have a lot of love and care for without felling guilty because i know im not doing anything wrong

Edit¹: oh shit i spelled it wrong in the last pannel 💀should be *using them AS A labrat

Edit²: If Zim is an adult he could disguise himself as an adult with some scholastic profession at school. (ex: teacher, principal, janitor etc.) But he is disguised as a primary school student, and he even has robot parents. The others disguises of him are an old man or Professor Membrane in ETF, which are disguises for comic effect and not to be taken seriously for the audience

[fanboyvini]

holy shit

Y’all I know how to get around the ‘Zim is an old man’ anti argument.

Dib is an old man too. He lived an entire life in his Wonderful Life and you know he lived that full life because of how dazed he was when he got out, plus Zim fucking would make Dib physically live out his entire life to hit him with a muffin. THEY BOTH OLD MEN, IT EVEN

I’ll take my Nobel Peace prize now

[kryptonbabe]

A personal argument in favor of transgression in fandom spaces

Marquis de Sade (1740-1814), would he write Wincest, Reylo and Zadr fanfiction with obsessive yandere mafia boss tropes if he was alive today?

It's so weird for me to come to fandom at my current age (30) and with my background, I was not a very online teenager, I had an art tumblr growing up, but that was very far from the whole Superwholock bubble and discourse. My first interests reading were classic literature and stuff from school and Harry Potter for little bit, then Tolkien for a long time, then science-fiction and transgressive literature, starting with A Clockwork Orange, then Piano Teacher, Bret Easton Ellis, Yukio Mishima, Dennis Cooper etc. I'm a sensitive traumatized person (for reasons I won't explain) and I've been depressed and anxious most of my life, experiencing disturbing intrusive thoughts, so the themes in fiction that interested me were always the things I was most afraid and uncomfortable with in real life, traumatic events close to me that I had no other way to explore and no one else to talk to about. In a way transgressive art was always there for me, showing me how evil thoughts and experiences are not an exclusive thing, not a burden I must carry alone, those artists and writers also cared and thought about those things in meaningful ways, that was a relief. Slowly and with therapy I learned to organize my intrusive thought as creative thoughts, ideas I could use to paint or write, and this really really helped me.

The thing is I started to get interested in comic books too, this by the age of 20, reading them by myself and sharing my ideas with some close friends who didn't care about comics, but would listen to me. I started being active in fandom spaces recently, almost ten years after I started reading comics and, oh boy, is this a different environment. Where the morally ambiguous, weird and transgressive are very close to forbidden, people are divided among anti and proshippers, and exploring heavy themes and disturbing scenarios is frowned upon. I recently read about an Invader Zim artist who was bullied and had to abandon their blog due to attacks to their weird art. As if Comte de Lautréamont, Marquis de Sade, Georges Bataille and I don't know, the fucked up passages of the Bible never existed, to free us from the closed-mindness. It's all so backwards, restrictive and conservative. Not the fact that some people do not want to engage with these themes, you have the right to do so, but we accomplish nothing by judging and hating on people who want to talk about these subjects, who understand the human nature as a complex experience not imune to evil, malice, bizarre impulses and desires.

Talking about these things is different from supporting and agreeing with them, but they are a part of our existence and sometimes expressing awful experiences through art is the only escape someone have. To ignore the worst in us is a conservative attitude that idealizes a perfect conduct and ideal way of being, an hygienist perception of what it means to be human, with a lack of nuance and complexity that is just boring on top of being a form of censorship.

[cosmicriff]

zadr discourse