#zadr discourse

[ugh-fml]

I can’t believe that I actually need to make a second discourse post. (The first was about the trans Zim discourse a year ago it’s over now I think) Anyways recently (before AND after the movie) I’ve seen people in this fandom act very ignorant to say the least. Artists and other content creators in our little bubble should not have the issue of harassment and bigoty they are receiving. And before you think this is bullshit, it’s not.

This very small group of people on Instagram AND on tumblr that are specifically ONLY targeting zadr fans. not in my entire 3 years of being in this fandom have I seen a post about ZAGR and DATR discourse. And YEAH I know it’s very biased to say that since I am one myself, and before you go there with the pedophile label, I AM A MINOR.

This is not about the “pedophillia” that is going on- and tbh I’ve seen none so far! (I’m not looking for it and if you have seen it in the dark corners of the web I am so sorry.) I’m not going to ignore the possibility that there could be some sickos out there, because there are, in the fandom? No idea. Apparently years ago there were(are?) people sexulizing gaz and shipping her with her BROTHER dib. Gross. 🤮

NOW the zadr shippers that I am talking about in this post are NOT pedophiles or anything like that. They are simply fans of a show,shipping an alien with a human.

And if there is a drawing you come across of Zim and dib kissing, and it’s dib as a child I can promise you that they’re most likely not thinking ‘OOOH CHILD AND ADLUT SEXY’ THEYRE NOT!! NOT EVERYONE YOU MEET IN THIS FANDOM IS A PEDOPHILE!!! It’s most likely a very innocent minor drawing it and thinking oh this is cute!! NOT ACTIVELY THINK OH THIS ONE IS ADULT THIS ONE IS A CHILD. How do I know this? I have done this before when I was 11 and very new into the fandom. I’ve also heard stories of other people when they were young doing this as well.

The thing is it’s not about the age difference or anything. That doesn’t apply to the fics and art. What I’m trying to say is that it is ASSUMES that dib is 18+ and it usally is STATED on the art or blog!! Trust me most of them are uncomfortable by the age gap and a lot of times age dib up ALOT.

To shippers it’s about the dynamics of their characters, and how nice it would be to see them interact NICELY to each other, and fall in love.

what I just described is literally a reason why people ship enemies to lovers

One of my favorite artists @/starchild37 has an Instagram and used to post their art there. For a while it was nice and everyone was nice and interacted in a good way. Unfounded that didn’t last. It is very unclear what messages were sent and what went on exactly but here was their final post:

No one deserves to be treated like this. We are better than this. Please stop spreading hate and hurting people. If you really feel uncomfortable with these artists I can recommend you doing the following:

1. Block the artist and blacklist the zadr tag :)

Please feel free to add. I tried to make this as unbiased as possible. Let’s have a friendly discussion.

[vending-wonderland]

You know, I tried to re-enter the Invader Zim fandom last year because I thought we were all past the "ZaDr is pedophilia" "ZaDr is proship" discourse? Like, I thought everyone finally came to their senses and realized that Jhonen Vasquez is full of shit. I was wrong and ended up leaving the fandom AGAIN because it's still just as bad as 2020.

Jhonen HIMSELF has had GaZr fanart on the walls of his office (Which makes him a pedophile too if you think ZaDr is proship btw). He has also been recorded MULTIPLE TIMES talking about how much he hates ZaDr shippers and any fans of his that don't interpret the show how he wants them to and how they aren't "real fans".

It's been 6 years and you people still can't do an ounce of research to save your lives. ZaDr is not a proship. Even if Zim IS 100 years old (Zim does not have an official canon age and NO Jhonens tweets do not count) he has been stated to be mentally the same age as Dib in the show (ALSO BY JHONEN).

PLEASE CAN WE JUST LEAVE IT BEHIND FOR 2025! ITS BEEN 6 YEARS SINCE THAT STUPID FUCKING TWEET THAT RUINED THIS FANDOM!

[the-prophet-mich]

Just my opinion of ZADR

Yes, Dib’s 12. Yes, Zim’s 70 plus Earth years at the very least. Does that fact make the ship inherently problematic?

I don’t think so.

Because listen. Zim is an alien. He does not mature at the same rate of a human. I get the concern, I really do, bc 12 year olds dating adult humans is bad news. In that situation, that adult is most definitely grooming that child. It is very much sexual abuse.

Zim is an alien. And he isn’t mature AT ALL. His mental age in no where close to 18. I’m pretty sure Dib, if anything, is more mature than Zim could ever be. They’re on level playing fields.

Also, it’s Zim, guys. Irkens are born in vats. They’re more tech than they are organic. I’m pretty sure modern day Irkens aren’t sexually driven creatures. Zim dates Tak to study human relationships, not because he wants to. He has no clue about human culture when it comes to this (or anything for that matter.)

Abusers have power over their victims. In this dynamic, Dib would be the one with the power. He’s the one with the knowledge and social expectations. Zim probably considers mating savage and outdated, as curious as he might be. There’s that cultural barrier.

Unless someone tells him, Zim wouldn’t know the age difference is taboo. And if you find out well into the relationship that your alien boyfriend is older than you thought, are you gonna let that be the thing that ends it?

Seeing each other as equals is key. Zim and Dib see each other as equals. That’s true for them as enemies, friends, and lovers. (Yeah, Zim feels superior for being an Irken, but he views Dib as a worth oppnent. As an equal capable of defeating him even when Zim’s in denial.)

My point is, just let people have fun with the ship without calling them pedophiles. Zim is a fictional alien character. He isn’t mentally on the same level as a human adult, I’m pretty sure he’s mentally a teenager in his society. Zim and Dib look the same age and y’all don’t pull this shit when 100+ year old vampires start dating 16 year olds. Most zadr seems to be aged up to high school age at the very least anyways.

[b0ylik3r]

I dont wanna get myself involved in any more ZADR discourse, but I also don't want misinfo to spread around and people to get discouraged or anything like I had been for a while. So I'm going to say this: Zim in Invader Zim is most likely a child.

There are a plethora of reasons I think this, but if you don't care then scroll. I'm going to provide my reasoning under the cut.

My first reason is that from a writing standpoint, there is absolutely nothing appealing about the dynamic between Dib and Zim if Zim is an adult. What would or do you find enjoyment out of their dynamic if they are not meant to be foils of one another like the show HEAVILY implies them to be NUMEROUS TIMES? If Zim is a child, their dynamic becomes "2 children want parental approval and go against each other for it, when in reality the approval and love they seek is unattainable because the parental figures will never give them it. They would be better off being friends or allies, but instead keep fighting to be loved because they're dumb kids and don't realize that it's fruitless and dumb". If Zim is an adult, their dynamic becomes "Immature man cannot beat child". What is to be enjoyed or explored there?

My second reason is that Zim acts like a child in a multitude of different ways. His interactions with The Tallest, his general immaturity, and even how he surrounds himself. He goes to school. He has made himself robot parents to support that idea. He needs different disguises to act like an adult. Again, from a writing standpoint, if he was an adult infiltrating a school building and pretending to be a kid, that's just fucking weird. I don't think Jhonen is that type of person. I don't think the writers are that type of people.

Also on this subject is the episode Tak: The Hideous New Girl. At the point of the episode, Zim was trying to impress and "crush on" and be the boyfriend of this middle school girl. It doesn't matter if Tak was actually irken. It doesn't matter if she is the same age as him actually. It doesn't change that Zim was trying to get into a human relationship with what he thought was a middle school girl. If he is an adult, that's pretty fucking weird. Again, I don't think Jhonen is that type of person and I don't think the writers are that type of people.

The "flying ships before you were born" only proves that on Irk, he was an adult or at least the age that would permit him to fly ships. Calendars are manmade, why would irkens use the same years? Zim's age could also easily translate into human years into the late tween years. We also have to think logically about things.

Also, I sometimes feel like people are forgetting that Irk is a dystopian society. They are a hyper-militarized alien race that codes people's brains on the daily and does not wait for the children to grow up even a little before they start military training (or, at least training for military training). What morals prevent them from using child labor or child soldiers? We also have to remember that in accordance to The Trial, Zim was a smeet or older allowed into violent chemicals and resources that can kill, like it did Tallest Miyuki and Tallest Spork. That, in a way, proves that Irkens are not above dangerous child labor.

One other argument I have is that in Enter The Florpus, during the species change clip, Zim, Dib and Gaz switch species. The thing is, Dib and Gaz look the same as Zim in this clip. They don't become little smeets, they don't become tiny kids. They become Zim's age. Zim also does not become an old man in this clip. He stays the same as Dib and Gaz. Being that these are their canon human/irken translations, I don't see how someone could still defend this.

You could take all of this and say "Okay, but ZADR is still proship because they are abusive to each other so why are you so pressed". But like I said in a previous post, there is a major difference between "haha 2 people fight each other n get hurt haha" and "this adult man is grooming this child sexually". That's not funny. That isn't cartoony. That is a fully serious topic taken seriously in every single media that it is represented in. Cartoony unserious fighting has been a staple for years in animation and media. Grooming is not cartoony. That is why so many people have a problem with it. Some people don't enjoy shipping things that are seriously fucked up in the real world like that, or shipping proships.

This all started because of one singular tweet Jhonen made that you all believed. I bet if he tweeted "guys invader zim didnt actually happen and dib was hallucinating the whole time, lmao dream theory is canon", some of you would believe it.

I leave you off with this: "If it looks, sounds & acts like a kid, it's a kid, no matter if it's actually 1000 years old or not."

[peantisdeliriouts]

I love this level of cognitive dissonance. Like yeah dude I’m sure you’re enjoying your old man yaoi with a serious age gap and clear abuse in a God honoring way ZADR lovers are actually degenerate FREAKS.

Like imagine thinking you’re not like the rest of the freaks cus you’re a morally acceptable freak. Be so fr right now holy shit

[fanboyvini]

i've been noticing this pattern for a while now, and i can't think of anything other than that word that starts with homo and ends with phobia

[optimizim]

discourse about what jhonen did or didn't declare as canon means absolutely nothing to me, considering jhonen has made such outrageous claims as "zim's favorite chipmunks movie is road chip"

[zimthesilly]

I want to make it a strong point here that if you dislike one of my ships, or a serious topic I've written about, I ask that you keep it to yourself.

I don't care if you disagree, I actually think it's a good thing that people can agree on one ship, and disagree on another; or agree on one writing style, and disagree on another. However, disagreements should not become serious arguments.

Any real world problems relating to characters stories are not portrayed in any romantic way. A character in my fanfiction is a survivor, this does NOT mean that I want them to be paired even platonically with their abuser. I wrote things like this because it's s way for me to transfer trauma on my characters. For example, I myself am a SA survivor. That is the sole reason that character has a backstory like that, to help me cope.

Anything I ship, like ZaDR, portrays both Zim and Dib as not only the same age, but legal adults. I refuse to draw shipping art of characters who I feel are too young to be shipped, and I refuse to draw suggestive art of characters under the age of 18. If they are not canonically that age in their original media, they will be aged up.

As I said before, I don't mind if you disagree, in fact, more power to you. But I refuse to argue over a literal cartoon. Yes, it's fine to put two characters in a healthy relationship. Yes, it's fine to rewrite an unhealthy relationship to BE healthy. Yes, it's fine to write about serious real world problems like abuse, as long as it is not romanticized and instead addresses the problem or transfers trauma the writer has experienced in their own life.

Fighting solves nothing, it only ruins someone's day. If you're going to fight about something, please make it a worthy cause and not about something like two 2D animated characters kissing in a drawing or a writer projecting their real life trauma onto a character they take comfort in. Thank you.

[emeraldspiral]

Looking at Invader Zim age discourse trying to claim that X number of years in one species's lifespan is the equivalent of 1 human year makes all of my brain cells want to commit die. It's "Loki is 16" all over again. I'm begging yall to get off social media and take a science class cause Jesus Christ how do you function in society being this ignorant?

Different species do not mature at the same rate relative to their lifespan. Grogu being a toddler for 50 years is not a thing that actually happens in nature.

Let's look at dogs for a second. It's commonly said that a dog ages 7 years per 1 human year. Most dogs live about 10-13 years, or 70-91 years, which sounds about right, doesn't it? But some dogs live to see 20-31, or 140-217, way longer than any human has ever lived. But let's also consider their early development. Dogs can start walking after just a couple of weeks while human babies take several months. Dogs can reach adulthood and sexual maturity in less than a year. Some 7 year old children do experience premature puberty, but this is far from being the norm and does not mean they are fully mature adults. Additionally, it is said that a fully adult dog only has the cognition of a 3-5 year-old human child. No matter which way you look at it, you can not equate the way a dog matures and ages to human development and lifespan.

Most newborn animal species, regardless of how long or short their lives are, are much further along in their development than human babies are, closer to toddlers than infants. Many are able to walk or crawl within a few days or even minutes after birth. Compared to most animal babies, human babies would be considered extremely premature.

With Zim, we saw onscreen that as a newborn he could walk, stand upright, jump, grab and hold things, and speak, more like a human 3-5 year-old than an infant. If we were going by the logic of "1 Irken year is 10 human years" that goes around in fanon, 10-year-old Zim should still be a baby, only barely be able to walk, pick up objects, and say a few words. But in the unfinished episode The Trial, concept art for 10-year-old Zim shows him looking like about what you'd expect the actual Irken equivalent of a 10-year-old to look like; taller than a newborn, but smaller than an adult, which for Irkens doesn't get much taller than a human 12-year-old with rare exceptions. There really is no basis what-so-ever to assume that Zim has only developed to the equivalent of 12 or 16, especially when he has a job in the military and lives on his own with no supervision. I don't know why anybody who headcanons that for shipping reasons would even want that to be the case when by that logic it would mean Dib and Gaz and any other human characters they want to pair him with would very quickly grow up to be adults while he remained a child.

In most cases, when dealing with extremely long-lived fantasy/sci-fi races, if the rate of aging is addressed at all, it is much more likely that the characters develop at the same rate as humans until they reach their 20s, at which point they'd be fully mature physically and from then on their bodies would simply not break down and display signs of aging as quickly as a humans. It makes no sense for a humanoid species to remain in a state of helpless infancy for decades or spend hundreds of years going through puberty. The only times you'll usually ever see something like that in fiction is if it's being played for a joke, or because the writers actually wanted to address how messed-up it would be to be to go through developmental stages like that for so long. Usually it's not even a matter of aging, the characters are just vampires or androids or something stuck at whatever age for eternity, yearning to grow up but never being able to.

Keep in mind however, that physical age and maturity are separate things. There's no reason to think that just because a character is immortal or long-lived that they mature as slowly as they age. Maturity has a lot more to do with life experience than physical growth, especially once your brain finishes developing at around 25. Often in fiction, when dealing with an immortal adolescent, being condescended to as if they were a child is a source of great frustration because they do have the mind of an adult. On the flip side, even in real life some people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s may be stuck in a state of arrested development, with teenagers surpassing their level of maturity.

My personal interpretation of Zim is that he's a manchild. He probably aged more or less like a human until his 20s and then stayed physically 20-25 for decades or centuries until the time the show takes place. He's just so immature he finds his equal in a 12-year-old human child. However, if he were to stay on earth long enough, I could see him maturing along with his peers at skool and starting to act more his age when they get into their 20s, (assuming he actually follows them to hi skool and college and doesn't just keep repeating 6th grade forever). If he stuck around Dib and Gaz into their 30s and beyond, I could see him continuing to match their level of maturity into their old age while he remains physically young.

If you have a problem with Zim being canonically an adult pretending to be a child, I don't know what to tell you guys. Like, if you think it's sad, that's the point. Literally, in the commentary for Mortos, Jhonen says that's the joke. That Zim's "basically an old man" getting into slap-fights with actual children and it's funny because it's so pathetic. If you think it's creepy, that's also kinda the point. He's a villain. The fact that he's not even human and that he's plotting the demise of the human race is already disturbing. He steals a bunch of children's organs in like, the third episode. He used time-traveling rubber piggies to maim and eventually kill Dib starting from when he was a toddler and then took a victory sip after watching the life leave his eyes. The entire concept of Zim is inherently sinister and predatory. But at the same time, Zim being a sexual threat is completely off the table. Canonically, he's aroace. He has no reproductive organs and no sex drive. He finds humans repulsive, and between that, his germophobia, and general paranoia it would be far more in-character for him to be terrified of the prospect of unwanted sexual advances than to be a sexual predator himself. That's why I don't think anybody thought too hard about Zim trying to woo Tak when he thought she was an actual human child, and why you shouldn't either. Yes, he had ill intentions toward her, because he is a bad guy, but those intentions were entirely chaste. Zim is not a threat to children because he might try to manipulate them into inappropriate relationships, he's a threat to children because he might manipulate them into helping him enslave their race.

There's no need to hand-wring about problematic age discourse. We're talking about a horror comedy that was cancelled two decades ago where the prospect of romance was never on the table to begin with. There is no such thing as a canon-compliant romance fanfic, and all fanfic by definition is non-canon anyway so it doesn't even matter. Make the characters whatever ages you want and tweak their characterization or circumstances in whatever ways you need to make whatever the fuck story you wanna tell work. It's all make-believe anyway. You don't need to make up fake quotes or deny or creatively interpret real quotes or bend yourselves into pretzels to prove the age headcanons you use to justify why you do or don't like a ship.

But for fucks sake, if you're gonna go there at least pretend like you know a single goddamned thing about the way aging, development, and maturity work before you unironically make talking points following the same logic as "According to my calculations, this character first portrayed by Tom Hiddleston at age 29 is actually 16".

[thealienfreak]

Not liking the most popular ship in a fandom feels like being upset that you were left out of a game of tag, despite the fact you have absolutely no interest in joining the game ever.

[thedramaticonestuff]

I hate proshitters with all my might; I have proship dni in my bio. I don’t ship zadr, but I do know that if I thought it was proship, I would NOT be following so many people who DO ship it! And btw, I ship a character with an immortal demigod that’s thousands of years old. They’re both adults, sooooo… 🤷‍♀️

would i get shat on if i came out of the closet and said i fw zadr (i would, i 100% would)

[b0ylik3r]

I think it's weird to constantly engage with discourse and people whining about others disliking your ship... just ignore it. Why fester in discontent and anger when you can just, you know, carry on and enjoy what you like in your own space? It's really not that hard to just ignore others.

the reason i do that is because ZADRers get harassed every day (especially on Twitter) for "shipping a proship" that isnt actually a proship. which is where that DNI comes from. ZADR is not a proship. i think its stupid to ask people to not interact because you think something that very clearly is not wrong is wrong. ive seen my friends and mutuals have ZADR antis come INTO their space and harass them for it. it's horrible. it IS that hard to ignore it. if they're so active about it being a proship that they have to have a DNI banner about it, they're probably the same people who harass my friends. that's why i interact anyway. we shouldn't be ostracized in our own fandom. i shouldn't have to go check if someone has ZADR dni on their page when i accidentally interact so that i dont get blocked on sight because that's the standard. this fandom is supposed to be a space for everyone who enjoys invader zim, not a space for those who believe a certain thing and not for others. thats why i interact with ZADR antis. thank you for the ask, it helps me express my feelings on the topic. :)

[mushy-madness]

Your anti-recapkid posts are super disappointing. IDC if you don't like them, but accusing them of being a shitty person is honestly just not it. They literally were abused for years (still are being abused) and did, in fact, have their life ruined by antis. It's is pretty much entirely their fault they were out of work and had their health decline. Like yeah they constantly talk about how much they hate life because people who can't mind their own fucking business had the audacity to stalk and harass them for years and ruin any sense of safety or comfort they had. Clearly you've fallen into the nonsense anti-recapkid nonsense that got them abused in the first place. TL;DR, their drawings don't make them a bad person and neither does their feelings towards their life situation. Fucks sake :/

TL:DR dont care if you like them. ----------- but srsly if u did read it you'll prob get why i hate them. i hated them because they chose to double down, i hated them because they continue to create such content that will keep them away from their dream, that they continue being in unhealthy circles with terrible people because they dont want to stop and stay in their comfort zone. ofc drawing art doesn't make u a bad person but like with everything else there are limits, esp when i comes to children fictional or not. what happened to them is horrible and i wish them a better life but there is only so much you can excuse before you realize that they're also the problem to their own life.

[peantisdeliriouts]

It’s so weird to me to see modern ZADR fans who are no older than like 15 whining about shipping. Like, hate to burst your bubble, but the vast majority of people don’t care about “proship” or whatever the fuck. It’s not a real issue (your personal disgust and trauma doesn’t mean that content isn’t allowed to exist) and I’m tired of people hyper focusing on it like it is.

Your feelings towards taboo or “disgusting” art are completely valid, but you have no right to treat people poorly or dish out abusive behavior over it. You certainly have no right to tell those people you wished they died, either.

It’s not the “proshippers” who ruin a fandom, it’s the fandom newbies who are obsessed with purity culture and fake progressive ideas that spread hate and abuse without hesitation.

Stop trying to tell yourself that it’s okay to be bigots and abusive towards the “right people” for the “right reasons”. You make fandom spaces, places that are meant to be fun and chill, highly stressful. Nobody should have to constantly walk on eggshells because you can’t control your temper.

No, I don’t deserve to die. No, I don’t deserve to be harassed. No, I don’t deserve threats. No, I don’t deserve abuse.

Break out of these abusive behaviors, stop bullying and harassing (abusing) people over things that don’t matter or exist. Sincerely, I hope the teens that think this way grow out of that shit. You’re better than this.

I’m not a “proshipper” as I don’t subscribe to such terminally online bullshit, but since you terminally online netizens will call me that anyway, let me break down “proship”.

The word “pro” means you are for something, like being Pro-abortion means you’re for abortion rights. Proshipping just means you believe ships have a right to exist regardless of your own feelings.

Ship and let ship. That was the norm not even a decade ago. Let’s bring back that norm instead of making abuse the new norm.

[fanboyvini]

holy shit

Y’all I know how to get around the ‘Zim is an old man’ anti argument.

Dib is an old man too. He lived an entire life in his Wonderful Life and you know he lived that full life because of how dazed he was when he got out, plus Zim fucking would make Dib physically live out his entire life to hit him with a muffin. THEY BOTH OLD MEN, IT EVEN

I’ll take my Nobel Peace prize now

[kryptonbabe]

A personal argument in favor of transgression in fandom spaces

Marquis de Sade (1740-1814), would he write Wincest, Reylo and Zadr fanfiction with obsessive yandere mafia boss tropes if he was alive today?

It's so weird for me to come to fandom at my current age (30) and with my background, I was not a very online teenager, I had an art tumblr growing up, but that was very far from the whole Superwholock bubble and discourse. My first interests reading were classic literature and stuff from school and Harry Potter for little bit, then Tolkien for a long time, then science-fiction and transgressive literature, starting with A Clockwork Orange, then Piano Teacher, Bret Easton Ellis, Yukio Mishima, Dennis Cooper etc. I'm a sensitive traumatized person (for reasons I won't explain) and I've been depressed and anxious most of my life, experiencing disturbing intrusive thoughts, so the themes in fiction that interested me were always the things I was most afraid and uncomfortable with in real life, traumatic events close to me that I had no other way to explore and no one else to talk to about. In a way transgressive art was always there for me, showing me how evil thoughts and experiences are not an exclusive thing, not a burden I must carry alone, those artists and writers also cared and thought about those things in meaningful ways, that was a relief. Slowly and with therapy I learned to organize my intrusive thought as creative thoughts, ideas I could use to paint or write, and this really really helped me.

The thing is I started to get interested in comic books too, this by the age of 20, reading them by myself and sharing my ideas with some close friends who didn't care about comics, but would listen to me. I started being active in fandom spaces recently, almost ten years after I started reading comics and, oh boy, is this a different environment. Where the morally ambiguous, weird and transgressive are very close to forbidden, people are divided among anti and proshippers, and exploring heavy themes and disturbing scenarios is frowned upon. I recently read about an Invader Zim artist who was bullied and had to abandon their blog due to attacks to their weird art. As if Comte de Lautréamont, Marquis de Sade, Georges Bataille and I don't know, the fucked up passages of the Bible never existed, to free us from the closed-mindness. It's all so backwards, restrictive and conservative. Not the fact that some people do not want to engage with these themes, you have the right to do so, but we accomplish nothing by judging and hating on people who want to talk about these subjects, who understand the human nature as a complex experience not imune to evil, malice, bizarre impulses and desires.

Talking about these things is different from supporting and agreeing with them, but they are a part of our existence and sometimes expressing awful experiences through art is the only escape someone have. To ignore the worst in us is a conservative attitude that idealizes a perfect conduct and ideal way of being, an hygienist perception of what it means to be human, with a lack of nuance and complexity that is just boring on top of being a form of censorship.