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creation-help · 2 years ago

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Advice and tips on how to make your character feel more genuine/real

- Pettiness and shallowness. Obviously it can manifest in different ways, but IRL everyone has at least one or two little things that they're a bit surface level and "Just because!" about. Be it clothes, how they do certain rituals, what color m&ms they prefer ect ect. It can be little details or even major characteristics, and depending on which (and what) they are, it can be really telling about the character! Plus, it just adds a little extra depth and fun. Some examples including but not limited to: Being fussy over getting their clothes wet or dirty, only preferring some items because they look good, insisting on doing some action or tradition exactly a certain way, disliking an aspect of a thing or a person because they just don't like it, and so on. Obviously the big worldview points like morality and beliefs are very important, but when you've figured those out, take a moment to think about the smaller, everyday things your character feels about the world around them. No matter how good or wise a person is, they'll still always have some little thing that they can't give some profound noble answer to. Use this to your advantage to explore your character's shortcomings or flaws!

(In the same vein, Pet peeves is another detail that can flesh out a character!)

- How does your character perceive things? What do they notice about people first? How would they talk about, or describe another person to someone, if asked? How would they describe themself? And why? Just some things to consider. If your character maps out all the little details and deeply analyzes everything they see, it'll show in their interactions very differently than, for example, if they have the perception of a cabbage and are more oblivious than the love interest in a teen drama that the writers are stretching out for five seasons for no reason. Ykno.

- Additionally: what's their opinion of the people around them? Or if you've already mapped that out, what's their opinion of people they've never met before, or people who aren't in their immediate bubble, friends of friends, relatives of relatives, neighbours, or celebrities, mythical/historical figures and so on. Delve into hypotheticals sometimes, it can help you exercise your knowledge of the character. Even if none of these encounters or situations would happen in Canon.

- I'm sure you've already figured out what your character is most passionate about, ykno, whatever drives the story and impacts their relationships with other characters. But how about stuff they really don't care to think about? Just shrug? Not interesting? Doesn't pay attention to this? What is low on their priorities? It doesn't have to be negative (but can be!), it can just be "Meh", or something your character hasn't even noticed before, simply because it's not in their thoughtscape to think about.

- Does your character have any of those "What? I thought everyone did that/thought that/was like that!" - things? What do they take for granted, or weren't aware isn't a universal experience? Did they have a wildly different experience with something that most other characters hadn't even thought of? And yes I understand this is good for exploring trauma and other angsty things, but besides the obvious, think about maybe something that could be related to your character's species/living environment/abilities/opinions ect. This is great for exploring cultural differences, and anything that takes place in a fantasy setting. Very useful for villains and heroes alike! It's insightful. Everyone has small little perceptive differences or big and small thoughts that for some reason just haven't been properly challenged yet. Or brought up even. For whatever reason. Explore maybe what that reason could be, and figure out why it's been unchallenged for so long.

- Imperfections. Little divergences. It's fully possible to write a compelling and genuine feeling character using just archetypes, if you really explore them deeply. And whether you're doing that or not, think about the lines and molds you've set your character into, and let them spill out of them a little bit. Can be one huge aspect or one teensy detail, but make some diversion. Some crack in the picture. Doesn't have to be a flaw but can be! Just have some little aspects that set them apart and make the character themself. Get weird with it. Getting weird is one huge way you can truly make a character stand out and feel more unique and, oddly enough, genuine and real. Actual people have little oddities or things that don't line up with everything else about their person. And again it doesn't necessarily have to be anything big or shocking, in fact I'd argue it's even better if sometimes it's just a small, very ordinary, humanizing detail. Maybe unexpected, or maybe just something that doesn't factor into the surface image your character has. Think about characters similar to yours that you see often. What traits do they all share, or most usually have? Think about the kinds of people your character is inspired by. What are they often like? Make a diversion from that. Make multiple even? It can be the most random thing but think about it, even if you threw a dart at a wall of sticky notes, really chew out what this little thing says about your character. And focus on little cracks, imperfections, diversions and other odd details of your character. Over time they can grow bigger, or maybe not.

- Keep a clear picture of who your character is. Sounds obvious but I'll elaborate. Your character will obviously change and develop over the time you're working on them and whatever story events take place but I think it's very important to keep in mind who they fundamentally are. Basically I'm saying that try to keep them in character, yes even if you did drastic character development, you can still show that it's the same person in other ways even if one of their core traits was flipped. Be aware of what things will never change about your character no matter what they'd go through. Keep some consistency. Consistency matters alot in making a character seem genuine and, ykno, a good character. Even if that consistent trait is that they're inconsistent! The character can be that, yes, but as their creator, you should still keep sights of what's consistent for this character, you feel? If your character is a glunk of slime that slips out of it's container constantly and subsequently molds into whatever situation it gets put in, that's not really a character, that's.. Idk, plot device..? I know this may sound contradicting to my previous point but I fully think that, and this one can and should coexist.

You need to simultaneously be aware of the ways your character will differ from something and be fluid, and the ways your character will not bend, and cannot become. It's simply a matter of knowing their boundaries and restrictions, knowing which way they can lean and which way not. Obviously this'll be up to you as their creator, bc yeah you're allowed to drastically edit your character if you feel like it's for the better, but try to commit to that change then. Don't let the character slip from your hands, or let the story bend them into whatever shape it needs to make the plot go forward. Your character, and more importantly you, should be in control of that.

I emphasize the point of you controlling your character and not the other way around also. I've seen some character owners slip into "Well it's just what the character would do! I can't help it, it'd be out of character if they didn't do x!" even if the thing is completely awful, doesn't fit, or would ruin an aspect of the story. A smart writer will know how to work with your character's traits in a way that prevents them from running off the tracks and becoming their own little gremlin, while also complying with the story. Respect your character's.. Character, while also respecting yourself and the point of the story. This is even more crucial if it's a roleplay character, by the way..

I'm just saying, find ways to write the story in cooperation with your character. That means knowing what situations to avoid and which ones to steer for, in order to keep your character functioning with the plot and other characters. Sometimes you simply have to prevent some event from happening, or some characters from ever meeting, for the sole reason that it wouldn't make the story work the way it should. Or the way you want it to. You hold the pencil, be aware of what that means

#writing advice #Writing tips #character advice #writblr #Writing #character writing #Oc tips #Oc advice #character exploration #characterization help #writing help #writing tips #Help #important #story building

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ghostflowerhotpotch · 7 months ago

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How do you think the spider gang would react to Gwen coming out as trans? I think they'd all be supportive, but I'm curious if you have details

I am going to be honest with you anon, I had been looking at this question for weeks, thinking about it, and...I am not coming up with much.

I am trans, I don't have that much experience with people reacting to that- and I am not making any more comments about that.

Going back to the original question- I think all of them would be supportive; regardless of background or history, I feel doing anything else would be a disservice to the characters, and also, a type of story I really don't have interest entertaining, (Would Noir, being from 40s, be reasonable to have his apprehensions and need to overcome it? Yes, I am interested in seeing something like that? Personally, fuck no.)

Now, it doesn't mean there cannot be hiccups- all well intending, of course.

(Specific characters under the cut because, as always with me, it got long.)

Peter B I see going over the top; talking how brave Gwen is, and that he supports her no matter what, he also reads a book on trans people and tell hims about the people in his universe who are trans. Gwen appreciates it, but it can be uncomfortable at times.

Noir, regardless of time period, would be supportive, but mixes up terminology. The poor guy already struggles with the pop culture lingo, so throwing queer lingo into the mix can make things awkward; specially since, as a spider-man, he has defended the marginalized people of his dimension and is aware of the community, but- that community had its own terminology that may not be appreciated to day. Is a growing curve.

In my opinion, Ham is a much of a man as Bugs Bunny, meaning gender isn't as important as commitment to the bit; so I can see him busting a dress all of the sudden and saying "I get you sis." Accordingly, if asked about his own gender, he is pretty much "normally a guy, but in general whatever fits better with the scene."

Peni I headcanon as nonbinary, so I think she would be happy to meet another person who isn't cis. Definitely would have lots of talk about presentation, tricks for clothes a make up, the works.

Margo is cool about it, there isn't much to say there; she just tells Gwen that it doesn't change anything between them, and she is still invited to come for the slumber parties (Margo has thrown a bunch in the Spider-Society, because anything to spend as little time mentally at home as possible.)

Pavitr: "Oh so you are like a hijra? That's so cool!" (This is a term from a place I am not from, so I can't talk in length about it, feel free to look it up because it is indeed, very cool.) While not the same, he ends up telling more about how people in his dimension see transgender people, Gwen finds it overall really interesting.

Hobie is, of course, cool about it. He is a punk, noncomformist, and "hates labels," he could probably tell Gwen a stupid amount of things about queer history, intersectionally, so far and so forth. Despite using he/him pronouns, I believe with all my heart Hobie would not give a shit about gender roles and dress how he likes, and be okay with any pronouns. This has nothing to do with your question, but I headcanon that Hobie has been the queer awakening of many other teens of the Spider-Society as he strolls down in whatever outfit he feels like it.

Now Miles, is obviously supportive. I think he may be oblivious to many things (I headcanon him as bi for a long awhile, but I am not sure if that's something he knows already or has yet to discover,) so he asks questions, but is always respectful and has no trouble answering. Overall, Gwen thinks is cute how much Miles dotes on her, and reminding her that she will always be the prettiest girl alive to him.

Huh, I guess I had more to say that I expected, this was fun! Thanks for the question and sorry for the delay.

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jq37 · 1 year ago

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Seeing you describe your opinion on Wish (the movie itself) as "def do have oh boy" just has me curious now. What is it?

OK, so I let this sit in my inbox for a while because I planned to see Wish and I figured that it would be more fair to wait until I had a full picture of what the movie was before I started talking about it and...yeahhhhhhh having seen it my opinion has not changed. It's just intensified.

MAJOR SPOILERS BELOW (lol, this got past 7k words)

And, fair warning, it's pretty critical so if you don't want to read something critical about this movie then this is your exit.

tl;dr: I think the movie Wish fails at basically everything it sets out to do and it's an absolutely awful 100th Anniversary movie for Disney.

When I say it fails at everything, I mean EVERYTHING*. I'm going to break this into sections for organizational purposes.

*The one thing I'll give it a slight pass on is the art style which I don't love but also wasn't like make or break for me. I would have preferred true 2D or a better implementation of the blended 2D/3D style, but if the movie was otherwise of the quality of something like Spiderverse or Puss in Boots, the animation wouldn't have bothered me. Like, I watched S1 of The Dragon Prince with no problem. I can forgive janky animation--and it wasn't even super janky. Just odd. What I can't forgive is literally everything else about the movie.

Characters

How is this movie so full of characters and yet devoid of characters that matter? There are a million characters in this movie and basically only two of them matter: The King and Asha. But neither of them are compelling in any meaningful way.

There's a lot of to do about the last batch of Disney protags being very same-y in a quirky, all fluff and no substance way and I don't really buy into that. I don't think that Raps, Anna, Moana, and Mirabel are palate swapped carbon copies of each other. They have unique backgrounds and struggles and motivations. I feel like they're all quirky, sure. But they all also have an identity BEYOND being quirky.

I do NOT get that with Asha. I don't feel like I have a good idea of what makes her tick at all. Like, she's kind. She wants her grandpa to get his wish. She wants to be the King's apprentice so she can help people. The queen (we'll get to her) exposits to us that she cares about people. But being kind isn't in itself an entire personality. The way Mulan is kind (defying the law to spare her father the ravages of war in his old age) isn't the same way as the way Cinderella is kind (making clothes for her mouse friends and protecting them from the cat). Asha just has a generalized want to help people, which is an admirable trait, but doesn't give us much to latch onto. It's so telling to me that in a movie called "Wish" our main character's wish is just, "To have more than just this" And yes, Disney princesses wanting "more" is literally their whole thing, but it's always more specific than that. Mirabel wants to prove herself to her family. Rapunzel wants to experience life beyond her tower. Even Snow White--the Disney princess with the flimsiest story--wants to find her true love. That's a concrete motivation! Asha doesn't feel real to me as a character. It feels like the thing that drives her is that the plot needs to happen and that's it.

The other important character in the movie is King Magnifico who was supposed to be a return to form for Disney in introducing another classic villain but he just fails at that so hard. The idea that he could stand toe to toe with any of the OGs like Lady Tremaine or Scar or even the latest villains like Dr. Facillier or Mother Gothel is laughable. He just doesn't have any gravitas. And his characterization is so odd. You can tell that they were trying to give him a "reasonable man doing unreasonable things for a good reason” backstory (both because of some images in the film and some stuff in interviews I read) but then they just...don't actually give the backstory? Like, they imply that the backstory exists but I don't remember them going into it at all. Which like, he doesn't NEED a tragic backstory. He can just be doing what he's doing because he's evil. Ursula didn't need a reason to want to rule the seas. She's just a boss bitch and she wants power. I don't need to dissect that any further. BUT if you tell me there’s a reason your villain is doing something, I need to see that reason. I don't understand why they would include that in the movie, just to do nothing with it.

Beyond that, he's written in such a weird way. Like, despite the "maybe he has a point" angle they seem to want to go with, he's very obviously a self-absorbed ruler--like he'll say things like, "Yeah, I am super handsome" to his wife--which immediately dumps him into the camp villain category. But he's doing the controlling things he does in the movie of his own accord to get people to stick to the status quo he set up. Fine. That's a fine thing for a camp villain to be doing. But then, at a certain point in the movie, he just uses a forbidden magic evil book (which he has for some reason) that just fills him with evil, green magic and makes him 100% unhinged all of a sudden. And that's just...boring? Like, anything interesting you might have been able to do before that point about power and control and how sometimes you make a wrong choice with good intentions is just gone at that point. It sucks because there were a lot of right answers here. You could just make him evil because he's evil. That works. You could have him be seriously convinced that what he's doing is right and be willing to do whatever he needs to do to keep things that way. That works. You could say that he started out trying to be morally upright and then slid into enjoying the praise and control just a bit too much--and I think maybe that's what they were going for. But it does not come across that way. He just seems like a dick to the point where you're kinda questioning how he's pulling any of this off. Asha asks him one question and he flies off the handle. How does everyone not know he's an asshole if it takes so little to fluster him?

So I don't like our main hero or villain. But there are still SO MANY CHARACTERS in this movie.

You've got Asha's SEVEN FRIENDS. Yes, SEVEN. they're based off of the seven dwarves, which is cute enough but do you know what happens when you give the hero seven sidekick characters? None of them get developed at all and you have to treat them like a unit. Only two of them matter at all--Dahlia (her best friend and the one who actually does more than just make dumb jokes or, worse, nothing at all) and Simon (the one who betrays them--more on that later). There is no story reason for them to have shoved in this many sidekicks. Especially since she also has…

Her animal sidekick, Valentino. Who is a very cute goat until he gets sprinkled with stardust and boom. He can talk. Which immediately made me like him less. Flounder he aint. The whole joke with him is that he's a baby goat with a rich, deep, baritone voice. That's it. Almost every joke he makes is either about that or his butt. Boo.

Then, there's the Queen--Queen Amaya--who is such a NOTHING character. There's no effort made to build up her relationship with the king so that her flipping on him later has an emotional impact. I have no idea what she cares about or desires. When she shows up, she's basically acting like the king's secretary, which is weird. I don't think that's what a queen does. There's a moment during a later song when she joins the "revolution" and it just has zero impact because again, it's like, I don't know who you are in any significant way! She seems nice, and I would love to live somewhere ruled by someone boring and benign, but that makes for an awful movie character.

I almost wrote "lastly, there's the star" because I totally forgot about Asha's mom and grandpa. They're in this movie too but even though Asha's whole motivation at the start of the movie is getting her grandpa's wish granted, we never get a good idea of what their relationship is. They have like, one quick scene at the top which tells us nothing, then they're in a crowd scene later, then Asha has dinner with them later the same day and that's it. And, again, we get nothing significant. Compared to something like Mulan where you have a good idea of what Mulan's relationship is with every member of her family by the time the military order comes in or Encanto where between the musical number at the top and the first group scene, you get an entire picture, this is really weak. Again, so weak that I completely forgot that they were even in this movie.

And NOW lastly, there's the star. Who is like, cute enough but he really makes me annoyed because I've seen the original concepts and they would have been so much more interesting! That's the case for the queen too, so I'll talk about both of them together here.

I am sorry to inform you if you didn't already know but the queen was originally supposed to be evil too.

She was supposed to be a part of an evil power couple with Magnifico and how dope would that have been? We've never gotten that from Disney before. Imagine! Disney Villain Song Duet! A Hot couples costume for next Halloween! An actual relationship that's developed in this movie! But nope. They unflavor-blasted her into the paper thin, placeholder of a character we have in the movie.

And the Star went through a couple of concepts. One, was the spirit of her dead grandpa, taking a younger form, which isn't my fave one but it at least would give her a relationship with this person who is supposedly an important person in her life, something we don't have in the movie right now. My favorite alternate concept is that originally, the Star was supposed to be her celestial love interest. And listen, anyone who's followed me for long enough knows that I am a big advocate for platonic relationships and FRONTING platonic relationships. I don't think that a story needs a romantic relationship to be compelling and I think forcing one in almost always makes it worse. But there is NO central relationship in this movie to carry it. Asha has too many friends for any one of them to make a serious impact so it's not a friendship story. Her mom and grandpa are nothing characters, so it's not a family story. She interacts with the star a lot, but that's basically just her talking to herself because the start doesn’t talk. So nothing is really there to latch onto. If they'd decided to go with the romance angle, it would have forced them to focus on at least ONE relationship and it would have been a nice way to throwback to classic Disney movies from the past. Much better than just sticking her with SEVEN WHOLE USELESS FRIENDS. Literally, all they provide is backup vocals in the fight song. Special Dishonorable Mention to Gabo. Man I hate that dude.

So, to recap this section, Asha's personality is only sketched out in the loosest possible way, King Magnifico is entirely half-baked, and there are so many side characters that no one can form meaningful relationships with each other. And it's really a shame because (1) they very easily could have pared down the cast and (2) very recently Disney put out Encanto which handles a large cast beautifully. There are a ton of Madrigals but I can tell you what the deal of each and every one is. This could have been done well and they fumbled so hard.

Concept

OK, so next up is the general plot and concept. This story takes place in the city of Rosas which is ruled by King Magnifco. It is supposedly a paradise, but much like a YA dystopian novel, it has a twist: When you turn 18, Magnifico takes your wish away from you and puts in in his wish room with the promise that it might be granted at one of the monthly wish granting ceremonies. Once your wish is taken from you, you are "unburdened" and you're "free" from having to pursue it. You don't even remember what it was.

There's a kernel of something interesting there. A ruler making his subjects docile, placid zombies that won't challenge him by taking away their ambition? That's interesting. People willingly giving away a part of their heart to dull the pain of trying and failing? Interesting. Someone doing this with no ill intent, but rather genuinely thinking that this half-existence is better than the heartbreak of the alternative? Interesting!

But the actual implementation of this idea? Ughhhhhh.

So first off, just logistically, Magnifico grants one wish a month more or less (Asha says once a month and in his villain song, he said he granted 14 wishes "last year"). So like, realistically, most of these people have to know their wishes will never be granted, right? Because of like...how math works? Asha acts like it's a big shock when she learns that most wishes won't be granted but like girl...math.

Secondly, there are two moments that are meant to imply that having your wish taken away turns you into a shell of yourself. Asha's friend (who betrays her) Simon is said to be all sleepy and more boring since he turned 18 and had his wish taken. And then, later in the movie, we see two new residents have their wishes taken, and they look a little disturbed after it happens. But, here's the thing. NO ONE ELSE IN THE MOVIE ACTS LIKE THAT. Asha's mom and grandpa act like normal people. So do all the other characters. It’s not consistent enough to establish that this is what’s on the line. Does taking your wish away make you a robot or not?

And does everyone just have one wish? I know I could fill a full sheet of paper, front and back, with things that matter very dearly to me. If you took away my wish to write for TV someday, that would still leave my wishes to travel the world and get a comic book adaptation of one of my novels and a whole lot of other things! Does taking your main wish away make you lose your ability to form new wishes? Logistically, how does any of this work? And you can't just say, "It's a metaphor. Don't think too hard about it," because there's a scene where the citizens start asking these questions. Like, "What happens if we have a new wish than from when we initially made it?" As if having unnamed side characters ask the questions first will alleviate the need to answer them. It's not lamp shading at that point. You're just being lazy.

Also, this is more a me thinking about the implications too hard than an actual plot problem but if he's taking the wishes at 18 I feel like a lot of peoples' greatest desire at that stage in their life is, "I want a romantic partner." And if the central conceit of this premise is that once your wish is taken, you stop wanting to pursue it then the city of Rosas is gonna have a population Collapse problem very soon.

The characters--especially Asha--get so emotional about wishes. It's like they're giving a My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic speech every time they talk about it (except MLP has MUCH better writing). It's bizarre to see Asha's mom get her wish back and be like, "Oh my wish. My precious wish!" when she doesn't act any differently than a normal person before or after she has it back (Sidenote: She says this and she's holding the wish ball but we never see what that wish is and that's maddening. Why do I know what the dream of every patron in the Snuggly Duckling is, but they didn't show that? Ridic.) It almost is like, being in contact with a wish ball is a quasi-religious experience that drives the characters’ actions (Asha and the King are both totally enraptured while singing together in the Wish Room), but because we, the audience, are very much not in contact with the wish balls, we're not getting ANY of that.

Anyway, to recap this section: the central premise of how wishes work and how taking them affects people is not treated consistently or explained well, which makes the stakes feel very undefined and sloppy.

Pacing

This has to be its own section, because it's the thing that baffled me most when I watched this movie. So, here's the setup. Asha is going to interview for the internship with the king. She wants to help people and she has the secondary motive of wanting to try and get her 100-year-old grandpa's wish granted because he's not getting any younger.

Here is the entire sequence: Asha is led into the interview by Queen Amaya. Asha is awkward but makes a good enough first impression that Magnifico is moved to show her the wish room (for some reason). They sing a duet about the wishes where they’re both dazzled by the Wish balls. During the song, Asha finds her Grandpa's wish and after the song, she asks him to grant it. He looks at the wish and says while she has good intentions, it's too dangerous to grant--as are most wishes. She asks why not give them back then and he immediately flies off the handle and starts ranting about how HE decides which wishes get granted and what everyone deserves!

Their first meeting and him showing his true colors happens in the SAME SCENE. It's like 7-10 minutes and they just RUSH through all of that. And it's like, why? Did they really need to get to that dumbass star song (we'll get to that) faster?

I know that he isn't a twist villain so we don't need to keep the fact that he’s the bad guy under wraps. And, the way the story is structured, she needs to learn what he's doing before she can rebel against him. But it's not gonna be a big, impactful moment if you're rushing from beat to beat like this is an essay that's due in twenty minutes and you started five minutes ago.

And it really makes you wonder, if Asha can blow the whole lid off this conspiracy within ten minutes of meeting this guy, why is this not happening more often? Between how obviously smarmy the King is, how paltry the wish granting system is, and how easily Asha was able to start asking questions and get him to blow his top (something that happens again later when the citizens start asking question–it literally drives him into his villain song) I don't believe that this wouldn't have happened earlier (Sidenote: Finding out that it HAD happened earlier and that Asha is the latest in a line of failed apprentices who questioned him? More interesting premise).

So to recap: I have no idea why this movie is paced like this but it's not doing it any favors.

Humor

Humor is very subjective so you can take this with a huge grain of salt but I think this is a deeply unfunny movie.

The jokes fall into about three main categories:

(1) Quirky Humor: This is like Asha babbling and tripping over her words. The scene in the trailer where she's like, "Is my face drooping?" is a good example. It's not really a joke but it's clearly an attempt at humor that I don't think meets the mark. It's also in the songs with, for instance, the animals or the King saying slang that doesn't match how they talk or you'd expect them to talk at all and it just feels deeply incongruent, not funny.

(2) Referential Humor: This is probably what bothered me the most because it was just so so very eye-roll inducing. And listen, I love a good reference. Enchanted is my favorite movie of all time. I don’t begrudge them for putting a few references in their 100th Anniversary movie. But ugh. There is a scene after the king's gone crazy where he's destroying wish bubbles for power and he's like, looking at the wishes and making a quip before he crushes them. And for the second one he goes, "Oh you want a nanny for your kids? Definitely POPPING this one!" And he might as well have looked at the camera and said, "Get it? Get it?" and it took 6 months off my lifespan. (Sidenote: He he does a direct ref with the first two wish bubbles--Peter Pan and Mary Poppins–and then he just makes a general ref to the concept of true love with the last one and it's like, come on at least rule of threes this if you're gonna do it. Commit to your awful bit!)

(3) Kiddie Humor: This is where things get especially subjective because maybe a little kid would find this stuff really funny and they are a part of the target audience so that's valid. But it doesn't add much substance to the movie. This is like the goat being like, "I found a secret passage with my butt" or leading a chicken choir or singing the line, "So that's where all the balls of gas come from" while sticking his butt in the air--a lot of these have to do with the goat and his butt now that I think about it.

I think I only laughed at one thing in the movie that was meant to be at least partially funny--when the Queen interrupts the fight song and everyone is like "Oh shit, we're busted!" before she starts singing along.

So to recap: Sometimes a movie has a weak story but it's super funny and that makes up for it. This is not one of those movies.

Music

This is the one thing I already knew before I watched this movie: The music in this movie is bad.

Like, fullstop, no qualifications bad. Not bad for a Disney movie. Not bad for this story. Just bad.

I was a little confused by the choice to pick a pop artist instead of someone who specializes in musical theater style music for this project, but a more pop-y musical doesn't automatically mean a worse musical. Sure, maybe it's a weird choice to pay homage to the past 100 years of Disney movies, but it could be good. I love Six the Musical.

But that's the problem. The songs aren't just unfitting. They're not just un-Disney. They're fully BAD. They feel so half-baked and God, I've never been so assaulted by slant rhymes in my life. Like, this bothers me to the point where I have to go through the entire tracklist. I can't just make a blanket statement, I have to show you what I mean:

1) Welcome to Rosas: This whole song sounds like someone listened to “Where you Are” from Moana (the "consider the coconut" song), “Belle” from Beauty and the Beast, and “The Family Madrigal” from Encanto and was like, "I could do that". And then they couldn't. It's not really catchy and it's pretty repetitive. Super forgettable.

Worst Line: Honestly, this song is too boring to have a worst line.

2) At All Costs: This is the duet that Asha and Magnifico sing. Before I saw the movie, I thought it was going to be Asha singing about a wish and Magnifico singing to his wife to set up the eventual rift between them but that was before I realized that this movie doesn't believe in relationship building. Some of the movie's worst musical sins are on display here. Turns of phrases that seem like they were written by AI and bizarre syntax.

Like what does, "You pull me in, like some kind of wind" mean? That's not what wind does. Why would anyone ever say, "Felt this? No, I haven't" instead of "I haven't felt this?" That's so awkward.

Worst Line: "Leave you here, I don't wanna. I wanna [promise as one does]." My feelings about this line could be a whole other essay, but I've been writing this for 2 hours already so I have to move on.

3) This Wish: This is the big "I Want" song and it fails on several levels. It fails in comparison to all the songs it’s standing in the shadow of--like the last “I Want” song we got is, I believe, “Waiting on a Miracle” and man! How can you not feel for Mirabel after watching her go through everything she goes through at the start of the movie and it getting topped with her being excluded from the family portrait? You see all the build up (including the implied build up from before the movie started) and you see why it's all bubbled up to the point where she has no choice but to sing about it! With Asha, there isn't a whole lifetime of angst that's bubbling up to make her sing this song. Everything that's happened to her has happened over the hour of like eight hours tops. She meets the king, finds out about the king, realizes the whole system is bad, and then gets into an argument with her family who's drunk the Kool-Aid and doesn't wanna hear what she has to say (which makes no impact on us because we have no idea what their relationship is). That's it. It doesn't feel like the movie has earned the song.

And then with “Waiting for a Miracle” the music itself is plaintive and soaring. Like, I just paused writing to listen to it and I couldn't help but sing along and pour a little of my actual IRL "I Want" energy into it. It's a song that feels very real. “This Wish” isn't any of that. And it's not the actresses' fault! She's pouring her whole heart into it and she consistently does all movie. But the song is just, bland. Like I said, "I want to have more than this" is too weak a hook to hang your whole song on–especially when it’s the song that’s supposed to be the thesis of your whole movie.

Worst Line: "So I look up at the stars to guide me/And throw caution to every warning sign." That's not a thing people say and also it doesn't mean anything. If anything, it sounds like she's saying that she's being extra cautious at the warning signs! You can't just throw words together haphazardly and expect them to retain their meaning!

4) I'm a Star: This is, imo, the worst song on the whole track. A friend of mine described it as sounding like a song from a preschool science show and that's exactly it, but there's more to it than that.

First of all, a big part of the reason this song exists is to set up the fact that humans are made of stardust because that's a plot point in the climax. But there didn't need to be a song about that. That would be like if Frozen 2 had a song about how water has memory. But like, OK. If the song was a bop, it wouldn't matter that it was superfluous. Haus of Holbein in Six does NOT need to be there, but I enjoy it! I do NOT enjoy this song however.

This is something I alluded to earlier, but this soundtrack in general and this song specifically sounds like it's trying to do LMM's schtick but poorly. And I know some people don't like his whole style of music (I personally like it) but love him or hate him, his style without his skill? Awful. The presentation of fun facts in the middle of a fun song makes me think of his "Look it Up" in “Shiny” or "That's true" in “A Winter's Ball”. And there's a part where a turtle (we'll get to the talking animals) sings "See we're all just little nebulae in a nursery/From supernovas now we've grown into our history/We're taking whys right out of mystery, closure/Now we're taking in all the star exposure" And it really sounds like someone doing their best to emulate Lin's flow in things like Mirabel's aside to Mariano in “The Family Madrigal” or any number of songs I could name from Hamilton. But it just falls so flat here. It sounds so preschool and cheesy. And not preschool in a fun way. Backyardigans would never.

Also, this song is sung by a bunch of talking animals (the Star gives them the ability to talk) and I find them so obnoxious. They say stuff like, "Did we just blow your mind?" with the "boom" sound effect and I hate it. Maybe kids will like them, I dunno. I refuse to get into it further.

Worst Line: This song completely misuses the word allegory, which I hate, and it rhymes it with "excitatory" which I hate more (and I am saying this as someone who has made peace with the fact that Schwartz rhymes "nasty" with "flabbergasty" in Disenchanted) but there is only one line in this song that can be considered the true worst line because it's my least favorite line in the whole movie. A dumbass, stoner-sounding deer named Bambi (boo) sings, "Ooh, I'm a star! Watch out world, here I are"

They rhyme the word star--not a hard word to rhyme at all--with HERE I ARE.

I firmly believe someone should go to jail for that.

5) This is The Thanks I Get?!: This is the much anticipated and extremely disappointing villain song. There's just no gravitas and it's not clever enough to be very fun. It's just kinda bopping along which is eh, kind of fun at best, but like everything else in this movie, doesn't leave an impact. A musical number doesn't have to be obviously sinister like “Be Prepared” or, the holy (unholy?) grail, “Hellfire”, to be impactful. “Mother Knows Best” is bright and filled with false cheer but it still works because we can see the manipulation that Gothel is doing and she spins Raps around in mental circles to keep her docile. This is just an egotistical rant--and not even in a fun, Gaston kind of way! (Sidenote: Gaston is a good example of a villain who is preening and pompous and kind fo campy, but who you see why he’s beloved AND he can be menacing when the scene calls for it).

Also, it's so full of weird slang that Magnifico doesn't use at any other point in the movie. "Peep the name", "Ungrateful much", "Mmm, are you sure you're not the prob?" It's like he suddenly got possessed by Urban Dictionary. It's bizarre.

It also comes weirdly late in the movie, which isn't a complaint, just an observation.

Worst Line: I think "peep the name" is my least fave but, because I already said that, the opening lines of this song are, "I can't help it if mirrors love my face. It's genetics! Yeah, I got these genes from outer space" and that's such a weird thing to say. I got these genes from outer space? He wasn't even there for the star song so what the hell does he mean by that?

6) Knowing What I Know Now: I feel like this is the song that had the most potential. But for all its build, it never builds to anything. It starts and ends so abruptly (which is the case for multiple songs on this list). We don't really get to know any of the characters well except for Asha so them joining the revolution has no impact. The Queen turning on Magnifico really doesn't have much impact.

(There's a line in this song where a character sings, "I was sweet but now I'm something else" which is so funny because we literally know nothing about her except that she surprises people when she's in a room which, lmao, me too. Fully forgot you were in this movie, girl).

Worst Line: "The good in him, I've watched it melt". There's technically nothing wrong with this line but I hate it because melting with regard to emotion is never, "Oh, his goodness is melting". It just hits the ear so wrong. You can watch the good in him disappear or fade or vanish. Not melt. Hearts melt.

There's also a reprise and a credits song but I have talked about the music for too long as is so to sum up, there is not a single song on this list that I will ever purposefully listen to for enjoyment ever again and there are a few lines that I feel calls for someone being forced to go to whatever the musical version of the Hague is to explain themselves.

MISC

This is just a section for things that annoyed me that didn't fit anywhere else.

There's a moment where Asha sees Star which is a star that has fallen to earth and is shaped like a star and she's not able to put together than he's a star until she looks up at a ball of yarn that's tangled in the trees and sees that the yarn is shaped like a star...which again, Star is ALSO shaped like a star! Baffling.

Gabo at one point makes a comment to the effect of, "Wishing on a Star? Grow up Asha, this isn't a fairy tale." And it's like, dude shut up. Your king is a sorcerer. This movie isn't funny enough to pull off that kind of wink to the audience.

The actual funniest part of the movie is when a talking mouse (not a thing that usually exists in this world) runs onto the Queen's shoulder during a big speech in front of a crowd and not only does no one notice, but she has no stronger reaction than if a messenger was telling her that her dinner was ready. And not in an underreaction for the purposes of a joke way. Like, in a they forgot to write in a reaction for her way. It's so unintentionally hilarious.

They specifically set this in the real world–off the coast of the Iberan Peninsula–but I didn’t get any of that influence in any significant way here. It could have been any generic island town. Rosas sounds like a Spanish name and “Welcome to Rosas” there is some dancing that looks like traditional Spanish dancing. But on a whole, it feels pretty bland. When I think about studying abroad in Spain, one of the big things I think about are all the moments with food–patatas con bravas, pan con tomatae, paella, and so so much coffee. The only food I remember from this movie are the novelty cookies Dahlia is always baking. Which is wild to me because their last big musical was Encanto and you could feel the cultural influences in every scene and it was seamless. This wouldn’t even bother me if that hadn’t made a point to set it in a specific part of the real world and call it out.

A lot of the dialogue is super expository in a way that both makes me think the writers think we’re stupid and that they realized at certain points that they forgot to establish things but instead of fixing the script they just shoved in a line. Like, to the first point, there’s a part where Magnifico crushes a wish and it’s very clear that he’s getting a high from it. But instead of letting the moment stand he’s like, “Oh yes. Who knew crushing wishes would feel so good? I must continue to crush wishes so I keep feeling this good feeling,” and it’s like…why did you need to say all of that? Old Power Rangers episodes have their villains monologue less than that!

This movie opens on a storybook–just like Snow White–and it has a voice over of Asha narrating the history of Rosas as the pages flip. Not a bad idea–until you push into the scene and realize she’s telling all of this to…her grandpa? Who is 100 years old and lived through all of this? What? Why not have that scene be a kid flashback and the story is being told to her? Or have her be doing the little kid thing of telling a story to an adult? Either way, that would help establish their relationship which is ostensibly very important to this movie. Or, wild thought, just have her be telling this story to kids! Like Mirabel explaining all the Madrigal gifts in Encanto! Like, if you’re gonna take cues from that movie, at least go all the way so your movie makes sense.

It’s very unclear how Star’s magic works. It seems like he mostly just gives wildlife the ability to talk. I thought he was just granting wishes but he never does that to any of the humans. And I find it hard to believe that the wish of every animal (and mushroom) in this movie is just to be able to talk.

Easy Fixes

And all of this is compounded by the fact that this isn’t just any random movie or even any random Disney movie. It’s the *100th ANNIVERSARY*. You only get one of those and this is what they wasted it on. My hopes were really high here! I was expecting a lot of love and care to be put into this one, but it just fell absolutely flat. It feels so rote, so by the numbers, so lacking in care. It feels like the shell of an outline of a movie that relies on the fact that we know what a movie of this sort should be and can fill in the blanks.

And the worst part? The absolute worst part?

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A REALLY EASY MOVIE TO FIX.

Like, I’m serious. If you watch this movie, you will be able to, off the cuff, name tons of things that would have solved problems without breaking a sweat.

For instance, just cutting her friend group down from seven to two would have helped immensely. If she, Dahlia, and Simon have a Three Musketeers relationship, then when he betrays her to the king, it actually means something now!

For a bigger but still obvious change, why not have Asha have an existing relationship with Magnifico? So then this story can be about her losing faith in this relationship she’s had for a long time after she’s seen behind the curtain and become jaded over time and not a 7 minute “Don’t Meet Your Heroes” speedrun.

And making it clear what taking a Wish from a person means–and following through with that portrayal all movie–would all be a game changer. Show that Magnifico’s magical wish granting still leaves the people hollow. Show that Asha is a vibrant, bright person amongst a sea of robotic adults. Show me some worldbuilding!

Also, just hire a musical theater person to do the music. Seriously I can’t believe I have to say this? How is there not a single good song in this movie? There are DCOMs with more bangers than this. Almost every song in High School Musical is a bop. How are you getting outshone by High School Musical?

And these are just changes that preserve the bulk of the story as is. This movie could have been even better if they’d change the direction to go with some of their scrapped ideas!

This is just a movie that absolutely baffles me. I wouldn’t think it would be possible for a movie with this high of a profile to be this bad. You would think that even accidentally they’d have to get SOMETHING right. But they really don’t. I can’t recommend this movie, even for a fun-bad watch. It’s like eating unsalted saltines while you have dry mouth. Just watch a better movie. And here are three movies I think are more in the spirit of Disney’s 100th anniversary than Wish:

(1) The Princess and the Frog does literally everything that this movie is trying to do but better. You’ve got a movie that used a 2D style in the 3D era. You have integration of cultural elements–in this case New Orleans in the 20s. You have a classic princess story with the classic trappings: romance, villain, fairy godmother. You have a rocking villain song. Hell, you even have a wishing star motif!

(2) Encanto is the latest Disney movie of the modern era to have that classic Disney magic, imo. It sidesteps a lot of the classic Disney tropes–no princess, no serious romance (Delores and Mariano end up together but it’s very much a side thing), no villain beyond generational trauma–but it still feels musical and magical and full of character and life. It shows that you can keep the big emotions that we expect from Disney even with more modern sensibilities.

(3) Enchanted is my favorite movie of all time so I’m biased, but I still firmly believe that it stands as a better movie in general and tribute to Disney specifically than Wish. THIS is how you do an homage. The whole plot is a loving roast of all the quirks of classic Disney movies, but it’s also a sincere story that stands on its own. It has references to old movies, but they’re integrated very naturally. And it’s funny enough to get away with things like a character mid-musical number being like, “What the hell is happening? Why is everybody singing?” without it feeling like lazy, “Well that just happened” humor. And the music is so good!

(A quick note on the music btw: Most of the songs in Enchanted are musical theater style songs but there’s one song near the end called “So Close” which is like a pop ballad. And it totally makes sense why they’d depart from the musical theater style in that moment in context but, even if it was jarring and totally unfitting for the movie, it’s still objectively a strong song. Out of context, it would be a great, sad, romantic song. And if the music in Wish was all like that–good but unfitting–this would confuse me less than it does.)

Anyway, I would shell out a LOT of money for a making of documentary for this movie in the style of the Frozen 2 one because as writer and a fan of a lot of Disney’s past stuff, it is completely beyond my comprehension who a team of accomplished people get together to create the 100th Anniversary project with their vast resources and produce this. It just doesn't feel like a movie with any serious care put into it. Which is separate from quality, btw. I don’t like the movie Raya very much but I think it’s obvious a lot of care went into it and I respect this. Wish feels like a movie that was made to fill some kind of contractual obligation and it makes me sad because I really wanted to like it.

#disney's wish #asks #jamiebluewind #sorry this got so long I just find this movie so fundamentally flawed #idk what the current tag etiquette is for stuff like this so I'm gonna cover my bases #disney criticism #disney critical #wish criticism #wish critical #if you liked the movie this isn't an attack and I'm glad you had a good time

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svsssfanonarchive · 11 months ago

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I find it interesting that the most controversial/widespread posts have been those relating to physical appearance/visual medium. Lbh's hair and body type and sqq's eyes. I wonder what's the underlying cause for this. Maybe because people get attached to designs they feel more protective of them? Just a thought.

Oh, I would say this is absolutely the case. Visual design choices are, after all, often symbolic reflections of parts of individuals' own selves in some way, or of other things that are important to them. Artists will also spend a lot of time and thought on creating their designs-- and in some ways, visual media and written media are also quite different. You don't need the visual contrast so much in a book, but you do need it more when it's pictures, because characters with good contrasts are pleasant to look at together.

I actually think the donghua designs create a sort of contrast too-- both by SQQ's lighter eyes to LBH's, but as well as with the broader silhouettes, where SQQ has flowing robes and hair and LBH's silhouette is tighter. Also in general, the black robes of adult LBH vs the teal & white. Western stylization just focuses more on body type+hair texture silhouette diversity, while eastern stylization is more about the clothing and hair-styling silhouette, in a broad generalization, so it's only natural that when people create their designs, especially for a media that is only written, like SVSSS before the donghua or official cover art came out, that they will draw influence from the background of their own culture in creating these designs, in addition to their own experiences.

It's difficult too in my position, because while I genuinely want to take a neutral look at trends and history and patterns and cultural influence as a scientific sort of examination, there are so many instances of attacks on character designs, which make both the artists and designers and the people who like those designs feel bad and just isn't productive, even if criticisms are genuine. Things should be talked over civily, without bashing, because a space where people are belittled and attacked is not a space where people can learn.

Anyway, everyone has reasons for their designs. Sometimes these may be rooted in stereotyping or westernization, but other times, they're based on personal reasons and don't actually have those roots. It's not my or anyone's place to declare, definitively, that someone is stereotyping (of course, there are some instances when things are very very obvious and that's a different story), I only try to explain what things i can so that people are then able to examine things for themselves. I do think it's everyone's own responsibility to look at their own biases and think about where their portrayal choices are sourced from, especially when engaging with a culture that isn't one's own. But I don't want people to get into a justification loop, because that's not going to help anyone-- just to honestly take a look at the why of things. Sometimes there's subconscious biases, sometimes it isn't about that. I don't know peoples' own experiences, so I'm not going to say what it is or isn't.

In the end, accountability is something that is definitely needed in sensitive areas like westernization or stereotyping. However, accountability is not dogpiling on someone. Instead, it's personally being open to consideration, to change, and to growth-- and we'll never have that in a hostile environment. People need to focus more on holding themselves accountable, and less on holding others accountable-- we all have unconscious biases. It's part of existing in any culture or environment, and it's a life-long process of examining them and growing in experience and knowledge. And I hope to contribute that knowledge wherever I can, and use what platform I have to foster that sort of gentler environment, where it's not about making people who genuinely didn't know things feel bad, but where it's okay to be wrong, and to learn and grow.

It's up to an individual to examine themselves when they hear new information. That doesn't mean everyone needs to change their designs to conform with Chinese beauty standards-- which have plenty of issues of their own, and shouldn't be taken as more "morally correct!" It's just so that as many people as possible can have as much information as possible, so they can make the best and most informed judgments and decisions they can about their own viewpoints and thought processes.

But yes, even saying all this, I can perfectly acknowledge that fan-designs of beloved characters hold a bit of their creator's heart. While creators can be imperfect, the experiences and emotions and care that these designs stem from is still genuine, and should be treated with gentleness and understanding.

No matter if someone's viewpoint is erroneous or just different from yours, it's important to remember that every person on the internet is a real, human person. Fandom culture can be so notoriously toxic-- and it's high time that people remember each other's humanity, and treat one another with compassion and understanding. That's the only way to create a better fandom space-- and ultimately, a better world.

#answered #psa #this got very very long #i was actually going to make a whole post of my own on this #there are a lot of important things to consider #but most importantly we are all people #all enjoying something together #all existing on this planet and in the end we want to be happy and live and be treated fairly #and when getting caught up in fandom wank or anything else really #this can get forgotten #there's a place for anger and a place for calling things out #but if a gentler option can be just as effective there's no reason not to use that #better to take the time and understand than to lash out incorrectly #long post

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cripplecharacters · 7 months ago

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that has a supporting character with dwarfism, and he's really close with his older brother, who is pretty tall. would it be weird if i sometimes had the younger ask his older brother pick him up so he can reach things? its supposed to be a cute little quirk of theirs that shows their bond, but i'm worried it might come off as weird for some reason. also, do you guys could give me a couple more tips on writing a character with dwarfism, if you have any? thanks in advance! (2/2)

Hi! the guy who asked about less talkative autistic characters here. sorry about that! i was going for more of like... don't talk to a point where it wouldn't be considered "socially acceptable?" but i had a character limit so i couldn't really get my point across that well. now that i think about it, that would probably also be lumped into just, yknow, not being talkative too. anyways, i have another unrelated question! probably equally silly but w/e. i'm writing a slice-of-life story (1/2)

Hello lovely asker!

I just wanna say that because of the ask backlog and the rotation of mods I'm afraid I don't know what ask your talking about, but I'm sure it was simply just a question that was in good faith of curiosity which is what this blog is for 😊

And to answer your question, I'm curious with how old the younger brother is. I haven't been picked up since I was probably about five to help me reach something and even then I was getting yelled at for climbing counters and such. If the younger brother isn't a very young child I would avoid this.

Being picked up is a general no. if you wouldn't do it to anyone else don't do it to someone with dwarfism or any person with a disability. Unless it's under their explicit permission, or help with transferring (from say a mobility aid to a bed or another place etc) or life or death situation, it's almost always a no.

Instead using things like the broom handle to hit tall switches or they even have these things called a "Reacher Grabber" that makes grabbing high up things super easy. Stool also are a big help, the small collapsible ones are easy to carry and move, and certain placed handles help too. Tall people are an advantage I will say though. Having the older brother bring something down to the younger brother is fine. Also have the younger brother climb things and stack objects and use the environment around him so he can get what he wants. I assure you this is what most of us do a lot.

A few more writing tips I have would be:

Research different types of dwarfism and find out which one you want your character to have and how this will affect him. It doesn't have to be mentioned at all but you knowing what type will give you much more insight into building this character.

Don't be afraid to give them mobility aids. A lot of people with Dwarfism have them and use them because they help us and they're pretty common in the community. (Do plenty of research there too if they do have one!)

A joke once or twice, especially if the two characters are very very close, about his dwarfism is okay! Me and my friends joke about mine all the time but quantity control along with a joke in good taste and timing is very important.

The character getting frustrated with his disability is okay too! It happens to me a lot but usually I'll find a solution right after to the thing that frustrated me and that frustration is gone as quick as it came.

If he's having a long conversation or an eye-to-eye conversation with someone that's tall, have them sit down somewhere, get to eye-level (I wouldn't have them lean over to his height though). It really does start to hurt your neck and head after looking up at everyone for so long.

And lastly, I certainly use my height to my advantage in multiple different scenarios. Small hands and small containers or spaces are very compatible with one another. And even though I have to shop in the small teens or kids section for clothes or shoes, I will say certain things are made better for kids (for some reason). But I also know how to hem my own clothes and how to fix them! A lot of people with dwarfism make or modify their own clothes. I can't tell you the amount of times I've gotten discounts at buffets and restaurants because people just assume I'm a child and I'm not gonna protest the discount either so. There are many fun aspects to having dwarfism, I have more fun with it and get more laughs and community out of it than frustration or anything else.

I know there's many more little things that I'm forgetting right now but the dwarfism community could probably add a few things too. Good luck writing!

~ Mod Virus 🌸

#mod virus #anonymous #dwarfism representation

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mtkay13 · 2 years ago

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Qi Ye cast poster!!

This had started as a sketch, waaay back as I was still reading Qi Ye. The original is pretty different from this (I considered adding it in the post but I actually don't like it anymore haha), but the plan was already to make this big spread with most of the -more or less- important cast.

I will add here some thoughts about the whole piece, and I guess, Qi Ye itself. My main goal was probably to express my deep and intense feelings for Qi Ye, its grandness, and its awesome cast-- and along with that, flesh out my mental image of each of them, their personality, their style. Here is a table with the names, so we know who is whom, and so I can add some details about my perspective on them and their design.

Jing Beiyuan has always come quite naturally. I just go for the "prettiest face" I ever came with in terms of : my own taste, and the features I find the most delicate. I'd argue he's the easiest character to draw for me across both QY and TYK. On this image, he's probably around 16 or 17. I find his expressions to be very fun to work on in general.

Ping An is also quite an easy character to draw, just for how specific Priest is when describing him.

Wu Xi's design is mainly inspired by a discussion with my friend Hanya, who talked about how, in SHL, Wu Xi more resembled a northern shaman than a southern shaman. It made me want to explore the designs and characteristics a bit more, and come up with more colourful fabrics, patterns, and darker skin color. Same goes for Ashinlae and Nuahar, to have them matching Wu Xi's aesthetic.

Ming Hua was included in this just because of the mess the mention of his name caused in the story. The two jealousy tantrums are just so delightful!!

Su Qingluan was made to resemble Jing Beiyuan, of course. What I wanted to reflect in her face was her frustration, mainly.

Ji Xiang and Hua Yue... Well. Nothing particular about their design either, but they had to be there. Of course, of course they had to be there.

Finally, an opportunity to draw Zishu with his fan and henchmen! Not mad that he kinda looks like a villain, here.

Lu Yu!! I drew him with an Ashinlae mask, since he disguises himself as Ashinlae. I included him because he matters a lot in my headcanons about Siji Manor. (it isn't specified, in Qi Ye, whether or not he's actually part of the manor, but I like to consider that he is for various reason that I may detail if I ever make a Siji Manor post)

I'll skip Jiang Xue and Liang Jiuxiao because their designs are steady for me, now.

I hesitated a lot for Helian Pei's pose, but ended up going for this one (looking bored, out of his depth, lost in the distance with his birds around him). I considered showing him with a bird in his hands, but I guess that's not the main vibe I get from him. And then, well, golden, flashy clothing, suited for an emperor.

Helian Zhao had to be in a showy armor, and I hated making it because it's so much work, haha. I took inspiration from an armor in NiF. I'm quite happy with how he came out in terms of both vibe and showiness.

I tried going full out on Helian Qi. Making him the villain that Qi Ye deserved. Dark, showy, elegant and horrible.

Helian Yi is also pretty solid for me, by now.

About the illustration itself, the main challenge was definitely to make a nice colour palette while still differenciating all the characters. I wanted to go with something intense, eerie, that could also complement the main tones I would go for (= red, purple, blue and green). I'm quite happy with how the golden tones, along with the green and reddish lights, make the whole thing come together. I struggled a little bit with the composition at first, but once I got the flow and the main figures down, it just happened quite easily. Anyway, I'm quite proud of this, and hope it conveys the love and admiration I have for Qi Ye well.

#qi ye #lord seventh #cast #meta #talk about art #七爷

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pendwelling · 5 months ago

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Hello!

Have you seen the art for the new season of the TWSB webtoon?

Someone made a comment about how the new artist made the difference between the styles of Venetiaan and Riester are more obvious, and I remember you mentioned you wished that would happen, so I'm really curious about what you think.

Hope you have a nice day!

YESSSSS ABSOLUTELY

I was outdoors when the chapter dropped (which was additional torture in its own way bc I was literally counting down live hours and minutes till the season launched with some friends LMAO) and went so crazy taking screenshots while walking..... I've seen all the available chapters so far and YEAH. YEAH!! IM REALLY REALLY HAPPY ABOUT THE CLOTHING..... OH MY GOD............... THE ARTIST RLLY KNOWS WHAT THEYRE DOING!!!! They even admitted to being a fan of the original novel and you can tell!!

Jesse has such a distinct fashion and visual culture to his wardrobe that the Riesterians don't have and it singles him out as a foreigner in another country so so so well. When the webtoon was initially announced, the fashion was one of the biggest things I was anticipating and I'm glad the new season is able to tap into this (surprisingly very!) important detail of the novel!

Some minor?? not really but just in case spoilers for future events (im pretty sure? I talked about this subject before BUT IM DOING IT AGAIN BC I JUST LIKE THIS ASPECT OF TWSB SO MUCH LMAO, SORRY IF THIS ENDS UP BECOMING LONG NONSENSE)—but the clothing that characters wear is pretty significant in the story in terms of symbolism, provenance, culture, and/or allegiance, particularly with characters like Prince Jesse Venetiaan and Sir Johann Geens who come from the Divine Kingdom of Venetiaan. The most obvious of the cultural differences between countries of the continent can be seen in little things like how Johann greets Jesse in the style of the Divine Kingdom upon first meeting him [ch69][in ep48 of the webtoon, is depicted as a bow at the waist, with the arm folded at the elbow and tucked near the stomach/torso], which even Jesse remarks is completely different from what is done in the Empire. When they are first getting to know each other, Johann actually switches with how he addresses Jesse, from calling him" Your (Royal) Highness" [(왕자) 전하]—unlike the Riester characters, who refer to Jesse as "Prince-nim" [왕자님] (which is what Johann also uses when he isn't slipping up with his addresses)—which is similarly what Riester citizens would call Cédric, who is their own nation's prince: "Your (Imperial) Highness" [(황자) 전하]. There is a very clear denoting/admission of allegiance and nationality in the way people address important titled individuals (tho Johann is a bit of a peculiar case for very specific reasons), and in the way they DRESS!

When Johann finally becomes accepted as one of Empress Frédérique's men, he notably starts wearing Riester outfits instead of Venetiaan ones [ch121]. Previously, since he came from Venetiaan, he would usually dress in that kingdom's style (the webtoon, however, shows his first appearance in an attire that is a bit more ambiguous..? Personally, it looks Riesterian, but I can give it a pass since he's currently ragged LMAO and also dispatched from the Vatican in the Neutral zone, not to mention theres also the possibility of Jesse's wardrobe just being fancier since he's royalty so he might not be the best example of Venetiaan fashion wkskks [depending on how the webtoon artist will further take this]). But in his character profile from the author, it is distinctly mentioned that he initially starts out wearing Venetiaan-style clothing (until, again, ch121 where he makes his first appearance in imperial attire, ft. a summer coat)!

///ch100+ territory/// — As for Jesse(Yeseo), even when he is granted the title of "Marquis Sérénité", he is still not fully considered part of the Empire due to his extremely complicated position as a friend of the Crown (he even refuses naturalization himself), yet also as the diplomatic hostage from the opposing kingdom. People may call him a Marquis and may respect him as so, but he is still referred to as Prince-nim, and as Moon of the Kingdom (and as other perhaps less than tasteful titles from time to time), and is still generally dressed in what his staff believes to be the familiar clothing of "his" home country. It isn't until much later when [REDACTED IYKYK] happens that this association of "Jesse Venetiaan" with the Venetiaan Kingdom switches over to that of the Riester Empire—to where the style of address used to refer to him then changes to be respectively associated with RIESTER, and his wardrobe also changes to match this.

It might not seem important at first glance, but the clothing in the series is a detail that I really really love and one that I find adds so much more layers and meaning to the world, especially when paired with all these other nuances. It also marks significant shifts in statuses and relationships!! "Jesse Venetiaan" is no longer just a diplomatic hostage Prince from a foreign country, the lone resident of the Cold Palace—"Jung Yeseo" is a dear friend of the Crown, the Marquis of Sérénité, the Palace Lord of Juliette, the Little Moon of the EMPIRE! and his gradual shift in clothing reflects his position in his environment, in his status, in his identity, and in the trust and affection that the people around him have for him.

AND GGHUHAGAHHHHHH DOES THE NEW SEASON OF THE WEBTOON DO A REALLY FUN JOB WITH HIS CLOTHING SO FAR 🥹🥹🥹🥹 I like how DIFFERENTLY he is dressed from everyone else!!! When he stands beside Cédric and Christelle he really sticks out! Jesse is wrapped in long pieces of fabric that drape across his torso, wrapping around the waist and pooling down to his legs—his sleeves are loose but wrapped snuggly at the wrists (large sleeves are particularly a staple of Venetiaan noble fashion [ch447]) and his collars are round and taller like that of a cheongsam (not to be confused with imperial uniform collars tho), without any neckties in sight, and he wears very obvious knotted buttons as opposed to the more simple round ones!!!!! It's neat, it's really really neat! Riester costumes take a more militaresque/uniform kind of look for characters like Cédric and Élisabeth, but outside of formalities, they and other characters clothe themselves in dress shirts, button-ups, vests, coats/justaucorps—and most distinctly THE NECK ACCESSORIES.... The accessories between the Riester and Venetiaan characters are so distinct haha! It definitely comes down to their differences in collars—Venetiaan's round cheongsam-like collars wouldn't pair with cravats and ascots, after all. Season 1 often dressed Jesse in outfits that felt more Imperial than Divine Kingdom, so seeing this new change is very cool. (Oh I feel like I should also note that while I often use Johann as an example, he's admittedly a bit of an outlier bc he's noted to not care for neatness and, like many others in the cast, often leaves some top buttons popped open. He's really suited for Riester costumes in that sense haha!!) Yeseo, unlike the Original Jesse, isn't much one for some excessiveness for Yeseo's fashion, while fancy, is less on the eye-catching side, but I do hope to see some fur robes and hats one day from other characters if not him!!

In all the webtoon chapters for Season 2's launch (ep46~51), Jesse hasn't gone through that many outfit changes (there are about 3), and while it's a small amount, it's still really cool to see how different his attire is from the Riester characters, which really hammers down how much of an "outsider" and foreigner he still is at this point in this story—still trying to set himself apart from the tidal waves that are the Main Characters—where the kids are still getting to know each other and are figuring out what they want from one another. FASHION AS A NARRATIVE TOOL........ I JUST FIND IT NEAT.....

Early TWSB is very fun, and I'm glad I get to experience it all over again through the webtoon!! I hope you're enjoying it too 🥹🥹 And I noticed I really went off on a tangent wkdjkdkd sorry about that.... I'm just so so so excited for the visuals of this season, and knowing that the adaptation team (the artist in particular) is a fan of the original source material gives me some hope that this story will be in safe hands, alongside that of the writer, who I will be cheering on too. Season 1's HGN has a very cute and pretty style that is really well suited for modern-day story settings (evident by the art posted on their socmeds!), and I wish them luck in any future endeavours!!!

I think I'm gonna head to bed soon.... I've been drawing and thinking about TWSB the whole day bc of the webtoon wkdjkkdk and I think it's time to pass out :') Anyway YES CONGRATS ON SEASON 2!!! (I WILL BE KEEPING AN EYE OUT ON THE CLOTHING! IM HAVING LOTS OF FUN!!)

I hope you've had/are having a nice day too!!!!

#EP 48 OF THE WEBTOON BTW....... HHOOOOOOOOOWAUAUU CÉDRIC RIESTER.......#I'm really enjoying myself!!!!!!!!!#Thanks for this ask I get to be a loser nerd IDK WHY IM SO FIXATED ON THE CLOTHING......#GGDUDGGHHH ITS JUST NEAT..... SO NEAT......#asks #twsb asks #I RLLY NEED TO SLEEP #twsb analysis

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blueepink07 · 1 year ago

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This scene in Umbilical is very interesting to me...

The people who are next to Yuno have facial expressions.

In Milgram the characters with a well defined face are usually important for the prisoners or for the story.

Good examples are Haruka's mother, whose face appears in the second MV, while his victim still doesn't have a face. Fuuta's supposedly friends at the arcade, Rei -> important storywise, being the victim + a possible affection Muu had for her (implied), Shidou's family (the patients don't have faces), Mahiru's boyfriend, Hanako - Kazui's wife and victim, Kotoko - the man who she steps on his stomach (victim).

So why Yuno, in the only sequence where there are people shown, actually remembers their facial expressions?

Well, I think this scene is more a representation of the society.

If we look closely, we notice a young woman, a middle-age man, a student like Yuno, a younger boy, probably in primary school, an older man.

Basically, people from all ages.

Despite that Yuno tells Es that she doesn't want to change her ways, she had to become a people pleaser. After all, why would she need to put up different facades for every client or person she is with? Why so much effort, that she is even matching clothes to fit the vibe with who she is with? Of course, she made all this with a purpose in mind, to find warmth! In Milgram, she stopped putting up a facade, because this place doesn't represent a place of interest for her anymore.

Ultimately, despite having a purpose in mind, she became, along the way, a people pleaser.

As I stated in my older analysis, Yuno is not fond of society. Because of people who like to humiliate and talk behind their peers who act different or have other perceptions, Yuno has to hide her work and her true self. For a long time, I have been thinking why Yuno makes so much effort, if she, in reality, doesn't care that much about herself...

"Yuno: Haha, we both lie, don't we? The difference is the reason for lying. Kazui-san, you lie to protect yourself, because you're important to yourself. For me, no one is particularly important. That includes myself as well."

Well, in Japan, reputation is very important! If Yuno, will show her true name and self, she might be putting her family in danger, along the way. And she will never want that, because she cares a lot about her family!

"What do you think about your family?"

If Yuno, because of a mistake, would tell her true identity, her family reputation might be at stake. Something that she will never want to happen.

That's why Yuno cares about what these people think and deems them important. She needs to be sure that her facade of a simple high schooler is perfect! To not act out of ordinary, follow the flow, be the same as everyone, so the society will accept her!

Moreover, it's important to state that these people are coloured in a lighter shade of lavender, they are not colourful as other Milgram side characters who don't have faces.

Lavender can express a feeling of dullness, it's lethargic. It could represent Yuno's views about society, how she feels like everyone is the same: judging others for their own self-esteem and pride.

This colour is also a colder one, showing Yuno's loneliness and the lack of warmth she receives from other people. This actually reminds me of a certain dialogue!

"Yuno: That’s right. You know those people who just wanna convince themselves, so they intrude in other people’s affairs even though it’s not their place—I despise them. That’s what I was saying. They only do that to make themselves feel better, don’t they? Those people don’t actually end up doing anything.

Es: Yuno…

Yuno: No matter how many chilling memories I had to go through, those people never gave me any warmth. [sigh] Hehe, I ended up going off-topic there! Um, what did I wanna say again?"

~"chilling memories" ~

The lyrics that are accompaning these visuals are stating that Yuno is feeling some kind of discomfort (her pregnancy). She can't smile anymore, more genuinely.

"I feel a little weird I’m still not used to feeling this way

I can’t get you out of my head, it’s a secret, ok?

Why are you here? You annoy me a little

I can’t smile well anymore, it’s because of you"

Her smile here looks a bit forced. Her eyes don't share the same happiness as her mouth, showing that her expression is not genuine.

Despite Yuno appearing calm about her pregnancy, she was actually a bit afraid and needed help! However, all she could see was a sea of purple, people, all the same, who would have just shamed her for her decisions and wouldn't help...

Bonus

In Teardrop, the only human we see, other than Yuno, is one of her clients. Well, see, it's an exaggeration, since he is represented by his hand which has colour. Yuno remembers him as his hand who gave her warmth, at some point in time. A cute rabbit, a sweet drink and a nice memory!

#I have a lot of ideas for Yuno recently!!#she is so interesting I love her character!#milgram #milgram theory #thoughts #milgram yuno #yuno kashiki

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episodeoftv · 1 year ago

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Round 1 of 6, Group 1 of 4

Propaganda is under the cut (671 words) - may contain spoilers

summaries (pulled from imdb or wikis)

propaganda

Chén Qíng Lìng/The Untamed - 1.50 Episode 50

The mastermind who plans everything has appeared. He's not someone who wouldn't think he would be the one who is behind everything, including Wei Wuxian's comeback. Who would that be?

I nominate this final on grounds of CCP information control, censorship and homophobia. They were so scared of the power of wangxian that they ended up banning ao3 in china and in the show they have to inexplicably have them part ways just to hammer home the no-homo. Plus the show is just kind of objectively bad.... but it rewires your brain all the same

Supernatural - 15.20 Carry On

cw: suicide

After Chuck is defeated and someone takes his place, Sam and Dean go about their life of hunting, but things don't turn out as expected.

1) you know why 2) god. where do i fucking start. this episode completely ignores this large cast of characters that were considered family in order to make it the "just two brothers" show again, scrapping basically every shred of character development shown throughout the course of the show, cutting out incredibly important characters at the last second (i.e. eileen being replaced with blurry wife for no fucking reason, cas not being there at all despite the whole love confession/ dying for dean that happened just two episodes before). in the penultimate episode the boys fight god. the finale? a random vampire from an episode of season one, who up until this point had never been mentioned again. then we have Dean being impaled on a very phallic looking spike and, after a speech about it just being about the brothers, dies. he then goes to heaven, where his father figure tells him his abusive dad is just down the road. he hops in his car (also in heaven, somehow) and drives for the next 60 odd years waiting for Sam to die. meanwhile, sam is moving on with blurry wife and i shown with a son named dean (as seen stitched onto his clothes), and we eventually see sam, now old and clad in the crustiest looking wig i have ever seen, die in the hospital. he goes to heaven, meets Dean on a bridge, and the last shot is the entire cast and crew on the bridge saying goodbye, completely shattering the fourth wall because fuck it, who cares anymore. and this isn't even mentioning everything that happened after. just an absolute mess the whole way through. 3) Random villain from season 1 kills one of the main characters, he goes to heaven and drives around while the other main character gets a montage of growing old a horrible wig. And that's not even all. 4) It abandoned 15 years of series theme and character growth, veered away from the natural story line and failed to resolve major plot threads. Dean deserved better, and so did Cas. See also Jared's terrible wig, Dean jr, Dean driving through heaven for five minutes... 5) Dean dies in the most anticlimactic way, cheap wig, blurry wife 6) There was no Castel :( 7) I mean... 8) destroyed every character arc in one fell swoop. the guy who tried to kill himself and struggled with depression throughout the show ended up killing himself anyway! was cas’s death even important? who was blurry wife? why was the absolute ugliest toddler imaginable cast to play Sam’s son? but in order to truly grasp how decimating this finale was, you have to understand the queerbaiting between 15.18 and the finale. why did Misha post that pic in the onion field with Uriel. why was Misha originally credited to be in 19 episodes of the final season on IMDb. why was . Hrrgghh. 9) Do I even need to write propaganda for this one? Even though it was the series finale we are still here after 3 years 😂 Title said 'carry on', but the fandom said 'nah, time for season 16'. 10) Bad old man makeup and no castiel 11) Everything had been neatly wrapped up in the previous episode. Then they decided "Hey you know what would be great? If we just killed one of the main characters." They killed him for no reason. He deserved to live a full life, have a family, retire, but nope! He met his match in a RUSTY NAIL. Not to mention that there were terrible wigs, blurry wives, and subtextual incest vibes involved.

+ After it aired, one of the actors unfollowed everyone who had anything to do with the episode.

#supernatural #spn #the untamed #cql #wfround1 #wfpoll #polls #poll #wfr1g1 #PENIS POLL

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fernshawart · 2 years ago

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How Deep Cut doesn't fit the three Buddhism poisons : a small analysis

This has been in my mind for a few days and I need to write something about this.

According to their respective songs, Deep Cut are supposedly written to be representations of the three poisons, but I feel like this doesn't fit them at all. So in this analysis I shall explain why I think it doesn't fit them, and what I believe they truly represent.

To make it simple, the three poisons go like this :

- Snake (Frye) : Hate, Anger, Aversion

- Rooster (Shiver) : Attachement, Greed, Lust

- Boar (Big Man) : Ignorance, Indifference, Confusion

When you just look over these characteristics you may agree with them but let's take a closer look on what I believe doesn't make sense about them.

Let's start with the snake (Hate, Anger, Aversion).

Frye doesn't hate anybody during the story. She literally offers you to join deep cut when she barely knows you. And she doesn't get angry a single time during the story. Not even when she battles you. Look at that ? That's a smile. She's EXCITED to beat you up. Not angry.

If anything, I would argue that her aggressiveness during her entire battle session is because she's just a very competitive person. She enjoys a good challenge. But being territorial is a core part of the inkling identity. That's why splatfests exist, to make sure their desires to fight aren't turned into a war but rather into a healthy rivalry.

Frye has had the opportunity to show genuine anger too, with her loosing streak in the splatfests. But the thing is, even if she's obviously sad about that situation, Frye stayed pretty calm considering everything.

Look at this. Look at Shiver's face compared to Frye. Frye's not angry. She's calm and composed.

Now for the Rooster (Attachement, Greed, Lust). It may be the most fitting of all for a few reasons, but there's still a big problem. Shiver isn't greedy. It's supposed to be a core part of her character, even. She's a bandit because she redistributes her wealth in splatsville, a place that is overall very poor. I know her battle stage is a robbed bank but ... In a sense, robbing a bank may be still part of that Robinhood ideology. Bank owners are some of the wealthiest people around.

She doesn't even have a deep greediness for victory. You can see it in her turf battle dialogue. She's ... Genuinely humble.

If she wins, she compliments you and tells you that she would gladly have a rematch.

If she looses, she tells you that it would be an honor to have a rematch and even talks about redeeming herself. She even explicitly says that the rematch doesn't have to right now, and I feel like if she was greedy for victory she would rush you for it to quickly claim back her victory.

The idea of Attachement, for what I understand, it's more about attachement to an item than a person so I can't say anything to that. But what I do know is that this characteristic, mixed with lust, is the closest concept of the three to the idea of passion and connection to others, which makes it the most redeemable characteristic. But we'll come back to that later.

And finally, The Boar (Ignorance, Indifference, Confusion)... To me, this is the most upsetting comparison. Big man is ANYTHING but ignorant. This isn't ignorant as in stupid, but rather as in "if you are not like me or against me, you don't matter in my eyes."

And the thing is, the simple fact that he is a part of deep cut should be enough to prove that he cares about others.

Look at him. He's not of the same species as them, not even an inkfish, he's far from being humanoid, he's not of the same gender, even if their clans are linked he doesn't have anything that resembles their iconic clothes or earrings ...

Even when it comes to personality, they're very far from each other. He's very calm when the girls get easily excited. He doesn't like violence but battles Neo 3 because he wants to fit in with the girls.

But this is the most important thing of all.

It's all for splatsville. He's doing it for others, for people he probably doesn't even know. Big man is the patriarch of his clan. A leader. His people trust him enough to put him in a position of power where he can care of others. Him being quite literally the worst, almost unredeemable quality of all DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

But there is something else in Buddhism that are opposites to the poisons. The wholesome qualities. Wisdom. Generosity. Loving Kindness. These are the counters to the damage the poisons do. And for some reason ... They fit with the trio perfectly.

Frye is Wisdom. She may not look very intelligent, but this is all an act. Frye isn't stupid. She's having fun and she's being relaxed. She's just like Pearl who we know is silly, but deeply emotionally intelligent when necessary. And funny enough, big foreheads in India are a sign of great wisdom.

Big man is Generosity. The large majority of his actions in-game are based on the fact that he acts for others. He joined the girls because they needed him. He fought for Deep Cut because he knew it was necessary. He's a bandit and takes treasures because he believes it's a necessary for the wellness of all.

Shiver is Loving Kindness. Say what you want about her, but Shiver holds a lot of importance to affection. Remember what she said during the pokemon splatfest ? She wants a partner that she can spend quality time with. She wants something to love. And by saying that, she was looking at Frye.

Deep cut aren't poisons. They're the cure to the poisons. And the worst thing is, they may not even understand it themselves.

#splatoon #character analysis #shiver #frye #big man #splatoon 3 #analysis #deep cut #Buddhism

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cleromancy · 1 year ago

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while from the doylist perspective the stories are specifically propping tim up compared to jason by doing this... i am obviously still very interested in, and compelled by, jason canonically having a pretty high opinion of tim going all the way back to their first meeting.

(for the record, absolutely nothing in-universe justifies jason having this opinion of tim up until tim springs him from prison imo. he beat the snot out of tim in tt29 and it wasn't even hard and yet for some fucking reason he still walks away thinking tim is a Better Robin than he was? like... ok. sure. more thoughts on this later in the post tho)

so the new earth (post-crisis pre-reboot) continuity tim-jason interactions we have, in order, are batman 617-618 (from batman: hush, this ones a retcon and barely counts, its just jason holding tim hostage with a batarang to his throat; and you might also get a glimpse of jay doing this in batman annual 25 lol but its in the other room so im not checking), tt29 (published in the middle of uth coming out, lol), tt47 (countdown tie-in), robin 177 and 182-183 (post-countdown, immediately after jason dumps his red robin costume and one of tims rogues fishes it out of the dumpster to wear, correctly intuiting *for some reason* that this will get to tim), and......... sigh. stupid battle for the stupid cowl.

(and, since were talking about jasons perspective, theres also the picture wall in lost days. i dont know what issue it is because to me lost days is not "made up" of "issues", it is one book i simply open to devour whole whilst weeping.)

i think tt 29 is the interaction i find the most frustrating because... we have an idea what tt29 would have been like if it were good. bc we have ga01 69-72. and granted Tim is such a cocky little shit (affectionate) that jason simply. Would probably not have been able to scare him no matter what, lol... but imagine if this fucking issue had been good.

ok cutting 4 length

the problem with johns. .......the FIRST problem with johns. is that he regularly has interesting ideas and his execution of them completely falls flat. the second problem with johns is that he can't write dialogue. the third problem with johns is that it was really really important to him that you understood what a Talented And Special Boy tim is but instead of showing you that he just forced other characters to. tell you. over and over. jason is not johns' only victim in this quest. (and johns was also not the only perpetrator, as we will see when i get to fuckin fabnic.)

but like i said i *am* actually interested in the potential here, because i do think there is potential.

and i also think that--at least when you read into it as deeply as i do--jason is sympathetic in this issue. (don't give me "hes beating up a child" crap here btw. jason's only 2-3 years older, tims a peer to him, they could easily have gone to high school together if jason hadnt fuckin died.) johns deliberately shows us Jason hoping raven gets a reprieve from the nightmares, and he certainly was *trying* to show us how much it would fucking suck to be remembered as the Bad Robin, forgotten except to be a cautionary tale, what kind of things that would do to a person emotionally. AND he makes a point of highlighting Jason's loneliness and isolation as robin, and. tbh i dont think the issue itself rly blames Jason for that. (you most certainly do not gotta hand it to him though. under no circumstances do you gotta hand it to johns for anything.)

and while jason tearing off his clothes to reveal his party city knockoff robin costume--the better to beat you with, my dear--was, erm. falling mostly on the wrong side of the line btwn camp and cringe... i do think jason writing his own name in blood on the wall was right on the money, *especially* because it was obviously not tims blood. like, tim wasnt bleeding anywhere near enough for that. it was either fake blood or jason prepped his own beforehand for them to DNA test--but also if they saw it before they saw tim, to make them fear for tims life, as a reminder of the risks theyre dealing with here.

oh but i was planning on talking specifically about like. what Jason might actually have seen in tim that left him with a positive impression. as-written? kinda nothing. lmao. or well the one thing imo is this

just kidding i couldn't find the panelz somehow despite posting them literally like yesterday and i ran into this lol:

>:| got distracted again. by this.

anyway i give up ill add the pics later. but its the exchange where jason has *decisively* won the fight, tims crumpled on the floor concussed and winded, and jason demands if tim *really* thinks he was good enough to tail bruce unnoticed for weeks.

and tim says "yes." hes beat up enough he can barely talk but there's still no hesitation whatsoever. and jason is *really* down on himself in this issue--he calls himself a failure, he feels like no one cared about his death, he feels unremembered. and jasons stated intentions here were to get the measure of tim but i also stand by the interpretation that he wanted to warn tim off of the sidekick gig, to remind him you uh. you have to be dick fucking grayson to survive it. (i dont believe either of them mentions him by name, but hey, dicks shadow is big enough for the both of them.)

i think what jason finds worthy of respect here--and, on top of that, intriguing enough that in robin 177 he entreats tim to join him--is the confidence, and also? at absolutely no point does tim believe jason is there to kill him. not a fuckin high bar, i know, but like i said i do think jason had *planned* to try and scare tim off (just also mega derailed himself by accident bc he got too in his feelings about the statue room 🥺), and... its not a bar he would have expected Tim to clear, is all im saying. particularly because while it is *possible* this took place in the middle of uth (tt 29 was released in november 05, between batman 646 and 647, which is the part where slade shows up bc black mask hired him to take jason out, so tt29 couldnt have happened in the middle of those two specific issues, but there are several other points at which jason could have taken a break in menacing gotham to fly to san Francisco), with Jason talking so negatively about himself i have to assume this is after the end of uth.

(you might be able to place this in the in-universe chronology by if/when teen titans mentions chemo dropping on bludhaven, which happens immediately before the bruce-jason-joker final showdown. however i dont feel like poking around for that or any other details to anchor tt29 to the other events happening at the time rn.)

i just also think so much of what jasons doing in this issue is like--he doesn't know *what* hes there to do. he had a plan and hes kinda fumbling it, not because tim is being especially resourceful but because jasons still licking his emotional wounds from uth, and titans tower is bringing up ones i dont think he ever realized hadnt healed. hes feeling everything at once. hes angry and hurt and full of self loathing but i think by the time tim simply says "yes," jason hits the stage of just being... burnt out. done lashing out, fucking tired, just wants to go home, if he can ever find it.

but i do think that "yes" would stick in his craw for a long time afterwards.

tt47: tim kicks jason in the nuts and pretty much declares them even for tt29 lolol. you may have seen my post about how jason only *sometimes* wears armor in countdown--hes drawn in the armored turtleneck and tac pants in tt47, but there are times in countdown hes out there fighting aliens and metas and shit in his jacket, a *t-shirt,* and *jeans.* just a squishy regular degular baseline human doing this and no one ever brings it up. but anyway. do i think tim would have seen jason wearing the equivalent of civvies plus a domino mask, narrow in on that, and immediately decide to kick him in the balls? i sure do. do i also think that this would make him rise in jasons estimation?

yeah. yeah, i really do. lol

anyway after this! after this is jasons briefish world-hopping stint as red robin saving the universe being a big damn hero and getting paid dust by everyone around him, in countdown; i think i mentioned before in this post that at the end he abandons the red robin suit in a dumpster, where it gets picked up by one of tims rogues. this storyline sucks and fabnic is a hack unfortunately. the rogue did it bc he wants tims attention or whatever. not important except for how irritating it is that fabnic fumbled a concept this juicy (tim inheriting and eventually purposely adopting The Bad Robin Mantle) which is also further fumbled by stupid battle for the stupid cowl, and the people who it falls to to salvage it are. johns again, in adventure comics 3, and yost, who is a better writer than johns or fabnic but not by like a huge margin.

and while i do think tim having a bad opinion of jason at this point was inevitable i find it so frustrating the way it was executed... like so often with Bad Tim Writing and also fuckin DC Editorial's Jason Slander Agenda shit it wasn't because in-universe thats how the characters would feel, the writer was using tim as a mouthpiece, and jasons competence and things he cares about arent taken seriously... BUT WHATEVER the point is that when Tim goes to stop Jason from his villainous scheme to reduce crime or whatevr jason has such a high opinion of him that he asks tim to join him:

and jasons loneliness, his desperation to be heard, is such a theme for him in the new earth/post crisis era and i wish it had been. Handled better lol are you noticig a theme here its that Jason has been written badly. (tim too, tbh.) and when tim says no jasons dejected but unsurprised acceptance breaks my heart. but to me the most interesting part of jasons appearance at the end of tims robin series is in 182, when tim--for absolutely no good reason--gives jason the means to break out of prison.

he says something about how its what Bruce would have wanted, but for. reasons i wont get too deeply into rn, that absolutely does not hold water.

anyway i just think there's no way jason doesn't start crushing on tim at least a little at this point. shrug.

bftc sucks and i dont want to look at it rn. but its also got examples of jasons high opinion of tim. and also im mad at it bc both countdown AND his appearances in robin feel like they could have been taking jason to a like. more of an antihero type of role and then we get bftc and morrison and its kind of. fucking hard to get jason anywhere near back on track after that for those of us who still like playibg in the post-crisis pre-reboot sandbox. and i wouldnt be mad about that if bftc had been good bc Jason absolutely does make an incredibly interesting and effective and tragic antagonist when handled well but well. he wasnt. and i have no idea what bftc would.have even been like if it was good bc it was so off the wall and dumb and assassinated actually *everyones* characters. so.

anyway

im just going to roll back to robin 183 now

jasons referring to the damage tim got when he got a little bit exploded in 180, this pretty nasty burn on the back of his head, which was actually why he wore jasons RR cowl for the first time (he was still robin). but what you do see here--aside from Tims narration which puts him *firmly* on the side of obnoxiously arrogant and judgmental instead of charmingly cocky in this issue, to my estimation, thanks for nothing fabnic--is the two of them on firmly cordial terms. jason still thinks more highly than tim does of him, but theyre asking each other about their injuries... tim caring about the wellbeing of people he doesn't even like is par for the course with him, ofc, but once again Jason doesn't really get that a whole lot. constantly haunted by this panel from countdown btw:

does he though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

here is another jaytim preboot canon interactions post from a few months ago with some more thoughts, some repeated lol.

anyway. incoherent rambling complete for now. however. jaytim time is all the time 👍 i will revisit this.

#dc #text #jaytim again? no problem #jaytim #meta #jaytim text

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