#devils and justified sinners

[cmrosens]

Conference Call for Papers 2024

This is an ENTIRELY ONLINE conference, so anyone can attend across different time zones. CFP is open until end of March. Devils and Justified Sinners – 2024 Conference

[invisiblequeen]

Some of y’all: SINNERS IS ANTI CHRISTIAN AND PRO SIN! 🤬

Some of us: Sinner is anti-religious exploitation and pro-“be a good person regardless of spirituality” 👍

[a-justified-sinner]

robert wringhim-colwan.

‘antinomian’ reformed christian.

a member of the predestined elect.

you may have read my personal account of myself, the private memoirs and confessions of a justified sinner. i greatly resent the editor that has so warped, censored, and misrepresented my writing and welcome all to question me on the original manuscript.

my illustrious and dear friend gil-martin will be vetting all asks i receive.

i believe in the predestination of the elect, the total depravity of man, and the perseverance of believers. praise be to god for ever.

- robert.

‘and god saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.’ (gen 6:5).

[thegirlwiththelantern]

It's real bad that I didn't get around to reading The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner in time for the conference but I have to say that I really love Mizuki Tsutsui's talk on the unfilmed script by Ian Rankin and James Mavor. I can't speak to fidelity with the source material but given its focus and when they'd been floating it around, I wish it had been made. It would have been really interesting.

[sanguine-prince]

if you read and enjoyed dr jekyll & mr hyde (or the glass scientists), frankenstein, dorian gray, etc—odds are you’ll enjoy a much lesser-known but just as good gothic novel called the private memoirs and confessions of a justified sinner.

you can look up a much better summary than i can provide, but it’s an amazing early exploration of religious extremism and the indoctrination of young people, the nature of free will, mental psychoses, and human identity. not to mention the author’s commentary on scotland’s national identity.

it utilizes the gothic doppelgänger trope and explores dual identities in a way that is completely different from jekyll & hyde or dorian gray. our irredeemable main character is a wet dying baby bird found in a mouldy cardboard box at the side of the road with delusions of grandeur and religious trauma. he makes victor frankenstein look downright self-aware in comparison. oh yeah and the devil is there too btw

i’m literally just begging someone to read it it actually changed my brain chemistry

(me gil-martining people into reading this book)

[jinkiezzsstuff]

LAYING NEXT TO ADAM IN HIS HOSPITAL BED AFTER EP 8 AND NOT BEING ABLE TO SLEEP SO JUST PLAYING WITH HIS HAIR??

LOVE YOU LOTS, FEEL FREE TO SKIP THIS IF YOU WANT 💗💗💗

yesssssssssss i love this it’s so cute, i did it a lil short sweet and lovelyyyyy sorry it took awhile but i hope you enjoy it!

warnings: none really, descriptions of injuries, swearing and that’s about it, short drabble! gn reader w no psychical description, a little bit of a weird ending? didn’t know how to tie it off

You and Adam have always had an odd relationship, you would have moments of really open closeness followed by acting like it never happened. You were comfortable with this because the idea of anything more serious scared you, it wasn’t like heaven was keen on hookups or lust, which meant any relationship led to marriage. So you would ignore your desires and longing, and instead focus on working alongside him.

Adam was of the same mind, he couldn’t hook up with you because it felt wrong to use you like some sinner when he actually liked you. You were always there to listen, telling him that he had every right to hate Lucifer for taking his wives; which he knew but always needed to hear from others, just to reaffirm. Of course he was too afraid to start anything serious with you when the furthest he got was some open communication and occasional dirty jokes shared between you two. There wasn’t any room for him to have a third heartbreak especially when he was now in closer proximity with the devil himself.

That’s why it was a shock when he watched you decend from above spear in hand, wings fluttering lusciously around you. You came back for him, you saw Lucifer and chose to protect him. As you sat alongside him keeping him alive while you could, Lucifer attempted to coax you on his end. “Can’t you see the things he’s done? He’s the devil.” Lucifer boomed holding his daughter. “Cmon we have a good cause here!” - “Saving him means killing others, that’s not very angelic on you.” - “The first man only uses women to fuel his ego and get him off, cocksleaves he uses and forgets. How’s it feel to be that silly little strumpet?”

No matter the harsh line the devil hissed out at you as you tearfully held Adam’s wound, using all the magic you had to keep him alive, and ignoring the taunts and tempts Lucifer spoke. Thankfully what felt like eternity ended, and now you sat alongside the man himself, staring at his paled face. You’d never seen Adam’s face before, Lute wasn’t as strict you’d seen her plenty, but Adam was always skeptical of letting you see him.

You never knew about the exterminations, and although you weren’t entirely pleased he lied, and killed, you justified it by reminding yourself of all the rapist, murders and weird child diddlers that he wiped out of existence. Staring at the side of Adam’s face you admired the ride burns that climbed down his face and the little patch of hair that accentuated his chin.

Leaning onto the bed, you softly and timidly brought your hand up to his cheek, enjoying the feeling of his skin against your hand. Gently you caressed his face, trailing all around and up to his hair. You carefully brushed your fingers through his spiked and messy hair, scratching his scalp gently as you did.

A sigh of content escaped you as you began to play with his hair, twirling it and brushing it back away from his pretty face. “I don’t know what I would’ve done if you died, dumbass. I would’ve regret so much, but now that you’re here and okay I’m just as afraid to say.” You whispered to him quietly, watching his face as his muscle naturally moved and spasmed every once and awhile. He had been out a few days now, a medically induced coma until he healed internally, which was the hardest thing to witness.

Everyday you came and spent some time here with Lute, then Lute would leave and you would stay keeping him company. Sliding up on the bed with him, you situated yourself beside him, your wings curling around him like a safety blanket, head rested on his chest. You cradled his head continually toying with his hair while you gazed off into space, eyes watering as you did so.

You woke up to the doctor entering the room, scolding you for impeding on the patients space, and then happily explained the next plan of action. He was going to be weened off the medication and would hopefully be awake within the week then it was normal wound care from there.

The pattern for the week didn’t change, accept you found yourself enamoured with his hair and face in general, who could blame you, you’ve only seen it now after all these years. You waited everyday to see his eyes flutter open, pinning over the multitude of fantasies you had in your head when he did so. However it was as magical when the day came.

You had his wing over your lap one Saturday, humming a tune stuck in your head as you carefully preened his feathers. Some were still covered in char from the day, leaving a weird nostalgic feeling within you, but not the good kind.

You glanced over at him as his leg twitched violently, his wings puffing along with it. You watched his eyelids flutter just barely, his eyes moving rapidly behind them. Careful not to disturb him, you dragged your fingers through his hair, this time however, Adam’s skin prickled with goosebumps and his body twitched. “Adam?” You whispered, hope evident in your voice as you leaned in closer, investigating his facial expressions.

Adam shifted more at your voice his golden irises finally opening to meet your own. Your stomach lurched at the sight, tears gathering as you got overwhelmed by joy. “Holy fuck Adam!” You cried keeling over into his chest with a sob. Adam still lost, didn’t know what to do, and quite honestly couldn’t fully register who you were to him at the moment. After a second you pulled away gripping his cheeks softly between your hands, Adam looked at you eyes tired feeling sleepless. Finally it clicked, and the heart monitor kicked up with his beats, he nearly died.

“What the fuck?” Adam muttered confused, his voice hoarse and grainy from the lack of use. Tears continued to fall from your eyes as Adam cleared his throat, his own eyes manically hopping from object to object around the room. “You’re one dumb motherfucker yknow that? Fighting Lucifer!? God,” You shook his head gently to emphasize your anger with his decision. Adam only grinned lazily up at you with lidded eyes, his heart rate increasing as he did so.

“Woah, am i in heaven? Because you’re an angel.” Adam slurred out smirking smugly as he did. You gaped at him, he only giggle jubilantly his arms raising slowly to slowly pull you into a hug. You met his movements and fell into his hug with ease mind still trying to comprehend everything. “God you’re an idiot you know that?” You mumbled into his flesh, pushing yourself further into his chubby peck. “Yea babe but that’s why you love me.”

You let out a noise between a scoff and a chuckle before agreeing. “Very true, not even the devil could change that.” Adam tensed at the mention of Lucifer, but his brain tracked back to the day of thee extermination where you decended into hell just for him, to save him. Adam remembered all the things Lucifer was slinging at you, the snake was really trying his hardest to make you fall. “What’d you think of Lucifer?” Adam dared to ask, all the groggy wooze leaving him, focusing all his energy on you agaisnt him. “Nothing special, i was too busy tryna save you.”

Adam’s heart fluttered as did his wings, puffing out and subtly jittering happily. Pulling your head up from his chest you looked down at him positioning yourself over his lips. Adam thought he may have been kidding himself, still in his coma dreaming all this up. “Alright dickhead, i’m going to kiss you, then we’re gonna get the doctor in here and get your ass home, and you’re going to tell me why the hell you kept all that extermination shit from me.” You grit out strictly, a smile on your face as you did. He always secretly found it hot when you tried bossing him around, it stroked his ego when he could talk back to you and get into little competition for dominance and control.

However, Adam really didn’t feel like fighting, nor missing the option for a kiss, so with a smug smirk he puckered his lips and closed his eyes, almost expecting you not to actually kiss him. You smashed your lips against his, flattening his puckered lips and making him gasp with shock. Adam didn’t waste time to recover, messily mashing his tongue into your mouth, sighing at the feeling of you on his tongue. After a few moments of intertwined bliss you pulled away with a warm smile. “You really wanna fuck around with the original dick?” Adam urged a cocky look in his eye, but a part of you knew this was just his way of confirming you wanted him. “Yes i do, i have no clue why the others left for Lucifer when they had you. After all, without a nose, what supposed to bump your clit during head?” Adam sat up with excitedly, wincing at the pain. “Right?!” The exclamation made you grin, and with a pat on the chest you stood, ready to grab the doctor.

[trashogram]

It’s so hard for me to articulate but one of the worst crimes that Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel commit is a lack of gravitas, in my opinion.

Characters aren’t very “solid” as individuals. It’s hard to differentiate them beyond labels. For instance, Stolas is a demon prince but he can go to a party for lower class hellborns and just join in. No one shows any fear or awe in his presence despite the fact that he supposedly has a lot of power over them.

Charlie as well, is disrespected and treated like any other Sinner — which you could try to justify by her being unusually optimistic and happy, but the mistreatment or lack of dignity beyond other citizens of Hell isn’t really connected to her royal status at all. No one badmouths her for being a princess who isn’t evil or something like that.

Lucifer! The Devil himself, may be a goofball/highly anxious and depressed mess, but Alastor has no issue riling him up and showing him disdain, as if there are no consequences if he doesn’t defer to the King of Hell. Which doesn’t make sense.

And these issues weaken the world around them. We are told that there’s a hierarchy in Hell, but if everyone is treated the same way, even if that treatment is terrible across the board, then the hierarchy doesn’t mean anything and shouldn’t exist. It also makes the characters blend together (and that’s not restricted only to royal labels. I’m also referring to sexualities, personalities, backstories full of trauma). Appearance-wise, they all move similarly, they all curse a good amount, they all make sex jokes and are prone to violence.

Sure there are some exceptions but the majority check all those boxes. There’s a lack of differentiation here as a whole. But I dont know if I’m one of the only people that care and find this disappointing.

[wishful-thinking64]

One Hell of an Unpopular Opinion #04

The reason behind the Exterminations should've stayed to prevent Sinners from overpopulating the Pride Ring and I don't like how Hazbin Hotel portrays Adam as being in the wrong for hating Sinners.

_________

The whole, "We kill Sinners for our entertainment," reasoning from Adam and Lute as well as, "I approved of the Exterminations to avoid Hell's Sinners from starting an uprising," reasoning from Sera is so stupid. Specifically, Sera's reason. Because logically approving of the Exterminations would only lead to more and more Sinners wanting to start an uprising with each passing Extermination. Adam and Lute's reasoning has to be the way it is so that the show writers can make it seem like Charlie's in the right when the show gives us reason to believe that she's actively wrong. For example, Angel Dust was born in New York City and into a Mafia family likely somewhere around the years 1912 - 1915 as he's stated to have died in his young to mid 30s in the year 1947 due to a drug overdose. Angel Dust was a mobster for most if not all of his life but he hasn't shown or stated that he feels any remorse or guilt for what he did back then. The only thing he feels guilty for is for his past self having signed that contract with Valentino which is totally valid however making a soul contract with Valentino isn't the reason why he's in Hell. Angel Dust is in Hell for being a murderer, a drug trafficker, a drug attic, a smuggler, and for likely having committed several other money related crimes. I swear, people hear or see the word Mafia and automatically think of death when the majority of their crimes are motivated by currency. Like, its still not good but its not just senseless murder either. The point is, we haven't seen anything about Angel Dust truly wanting to change. Yeah, there was that scene in episode #06 where Angel turns down Cherri's offer to do drugs but that doesn't suddenly mean he's no longer a drug attic for turning down ONE offer. Most of the Sinners we see or know of in Hell are fucking horrendous people. Alastor was and still is a serial killing cannibal because he can. Let me repeat. He WAS and STILL IS a SERIAL KILLING CANNIBAL because he CAN! There is an entire place in the Pride Ring known as the Cannibal Colony (in the show it got changed to Cannibal Town but I've been calling it Cannibal Colony for 4 years now and I do not plan on stopping), Martha's in Hell which makes sense considering she and her entire family were actual Devil worshipers, Loopty and Lipton experimented and killed the poor, and Valentino is a rapist. We still don't know enough about most of what the HH's cast did when they were alive which is why I think Sir Pentious ultimately getting into Heaven was a load of BS. We don't even know why he ended up in Hell in the first place but he tries to help his "friends" once and dies in the process and that's enough to get him redeemed???

Seriously, what did he do to deserve damnation? Also, I know Viv probably doesn't have Cain or Able as that would give Adam an understandable, even justifiable, reason for despising Sinners. His first and oldest son, Cain, is LITERALLY the FIRST SINNER. For what? For killing his younger brother, Able, by slicing his throat with a knife or sharp object in the same manner Able did when sacrificing his lambs. Although, I've also heard that Cain killed Able by bludgeoning him to death with a stone by repeatedly bashing it into Able's skull. Either way, if anyone deserves to hate Sinners the MOST then it's Adam & Eve without a doubt.

[sacred-coffin]

I felt insane and needed stimulation so @ranchstylebeaniebaby asked me to talk about Secondo Religious Cannibalism and I think what I spit out was awesome. So have this:

There is this interesting thing about secondo in my mind. I think he's an absolute sweetie pea, but he hides it under this grumpy horrible exterior because he thinks only certain people are deserving of his sweetie pea-ness (haha penis) (trust me this is relevant)

However this exterior is not a *lie,* he *is* like this. And that's why he loves horrible violence and thinks there are people in this world deserving of death. Perhaps he's this middle ground between Primo & Terzo... Anyways. This all leads into that he definitely thinks the strong should eat the weak, But the definition of "weak" for him is... atypical, I think.

I think it would be more like weak willed, or what he thinks of as weak willed. It's people who are unwilling to take things they want, to indulge, to persevere, but also perhaps people who actively work to bar people from getting these joys & indulgences. They're weak in that they have to find stupid things to use to make themselves feel powerful, by saying they're strong because they don't indulge or enjoy life, convincing others that *they* are the weak, or sinners. But really, the weakest people are really those who are grasping for bits of control they don't have by creating arbitrary rules.

So. Like. We should eat those guys. Cuz it's hot and it feels good lol. If you are too afraid to let yourself pursue the things that make you feel good, if you are so weak that you need someone else to tell you what you're allowed to do, you are better off being consumed by those who know how to enjoy life.

The thing is, I don't think the clergy does an intense research process to figure out who is and isn't weak. Obviously that's too much work. But Secondo justifies his religious cannibalism through this lens. Only the weak are eaten. This is the Devil's will. So if it is placed before him, it must be that way. And again, there is more strength in pursuing indulgences than denying them. So he can have human flesh. As a treat.

Anyways. I just made all of that up. But I'm incorporating it into my worldview now.

[reikiajakoiranruohoja]

HH Critical- Alastor thoughts

Critical of Hazbin Hotel, if you do not want to hear critique, do not read.

As time has gone on and I have heard multiple takes on Hazbin Hotel, I have gotten some ideas about exactly why Alastor feels so flat to me.

The show spends more time propping Alastor up than challenging him. Up until the last episode, Alastor is treated mostly as a powerful badass who can beat up anyone. Only Zestiel and Lucifer seem more powerful, and even then we never see any sort of conclusion to the Lucifer vs Alastor fight.

Alastor is a main character and basically the mascot of Hazbin Hotel. Yet he mostly serves as the devil on Charlie's shoulder in the first season. This would be fine if he served as a static character like Monokuma or Kyubei, but he clearly is meant to have depth.

Suggestion: Have Alastor pick more fights he can't win. We are shown that he is a sociopath who enjoys the suffering of others. Sociopaths who murder often get caught because they lack fear and get too arrogant. Alastor should have to fight to get back his overlord status and lose some fights due to arrogance.

Alastor's race and faith are window dressing. There is absolutely no weight to either Alastor being a mixed-race person from the 20s or him practising Voodoo. Both exist mostly to justify his shadow powers. Alastor also seems to get his power for 'free' as he does nothing in the series that even hints of worship.

Suggestion: Actually address both aspects. Voodoo especially (with the right research) could be interesting to tackle as the faith is a combination of Catholicism and African Diaspora faiths mixing. What does it mean to be a non-Christian in hell? How is his relationship with the pantheon? Does Alastor feel abandoned by his Loa?

Alastor doesn't have anything to do for most of the series. Aside from trolling Vox, Alastor basically leers in the background for most episodes until the very end. He has no goals or anything driving him but amusement. While at the end we know he HAS an overarching goal, it is in the last minutes of the last episode.

Suggestion: Alastor is most likely doing what he is doing because Lillith is pulling his leash. Give him moments of small rebellion and show him trying to find ways out. At first, it might seem he is just stealing for lolz, but every item is chosen as a way to get free.

General suggestions;

Show how meaningless it is to be an overlord. Hell has a lot of opportunities for its citizens, different ecosystems and cultures to live in and chances to make it big for everyone. The Sinners get none of that and are stuck in the Pride ring. Overlords are just slightly bigger fish in an aquarium, they have more power but are as much prisoners as the regular Sinners.

This should be shown more clearly with glimpses of Goetia nobles, the Deadly Sins and the like. Both Alastor and Vox should lose their audience to Verosika or Fizzarolli, nevermind Asmodeus.

Make Alastor's main goal a quest to leave the Pride Ring. Relating to the above, Alastor wants real power, he doesn't want to be chained in any way. Being close to Charlie and her being in his debt are stepping stones to true freedom in hell.

Showcase the lines he won't cross, then make him suffer for them. One of the tried and true ways to develop a character is to challenge their morality and resolve. Especially with characters as powerful as Alastor, it is important to know what could actually hurt them. Put his quest for power against his care for Mimzy and make him choose. Offer him what he wants but at the cost of his morality. The point is not to break him but to challenge him.

These are just a few suggestions I've had, but I feel they cut to the root of my problem with Alastor.

[cmrosens]

Creating fantasy religions: something I'm doing now so thought I would post about my process.

The mistake a lot of writers make is developing a religion from a singular event, and piling a ton of stuff on top of it that makes logical sense. Whereas, in reality, religions are self propelling systems that travel under their own steam and if there is an event that catalyses them, it is never in a socio-cultural or political and economic vacuum.

You also end up with an apparently totally random set of things attached to one figure which does make sense if you know the origins, but otherwise is just accepted even if the meaning is lost.

It is the difference between "the god of Midwinter and festivals around this originated because a cult of necromancers were banished into the frozen wastes and this <event> became the Origin Story for how we got to a midwinter festival with creepy bone puppets in my fantasy world" and a religion that feels ... Real.

Ok so firstly, this is a bit too neat. (This was my original reasoning for a midwinter god called Yarash and I changed it because it wasn't very realistic or interesting for my world.)

Why, let's say, is the god whose feast is at midwinter also the patron of puppet makers and osteopaths?

Well, we could say that this makes a lot of sense because the god's festival was originally to do with remembering the dead, and puppets were used in the festival to represent the dead, as necromancy should have been part of it but people didn't actually know how to raise the dead properly. Then as magic evolved people could actually raise the dead for short periods to deliver messages in these festivals, but this drew internal debate from the conservative priests who thought puppets were the original form and so should be maintained, and necromancy was an aberration, vs the progressives who saw necromancy as the original INTENTION and so the natural and correct progression from the puppets. The debate might rage on for years creating splinters, sects, differing traditions that sit uneasily together but find middle ground in other less controversial topics and practices, and even cults.

At some point, the secular authorities get involved for their own reasons. Maybe some rulers are pro-"The Old Bones" or anti-, or they want to outlaw necromancy or benefit from it for various political reasons, socio-cultural reasons, economic reasons, military intelligence reasons, etc. Whatever happens, happens. Times change. Official attitudes swing back and forth, while internally the religious debates continue, now informed by and perhaps as counters to, this secular intervention.

Then we end up in modern times, the times of the story. Nobody really believes in gods anymore. They do remember the old gods of the seasons and at the secular festival in winter, there are a lot of traditional puppet shows that have a whole history and life of their own. The puppets are called "the old bones" and nobody really remembers why. Osteopaths have the puppets and symbols relating to the midwinter festival on their certificates and college heraldry and nobody really remembers why, but the information is there to look up and is a fun thing to know for trivia nights.

And necromancy... is a controversial branch of science, divorced from its original religious significance for many but not for all, and more integrated as an art or practice in the public consciousness (positively or negatively depending on perspective and propaganda and actual usage).

And now, you have a ton of depth and meat to it without having to flesh out the arguments and debates themselves unless that is plot relevant.

There is a lot you can do with this society now, and by tweaking one thing you can create completely different societies and ideologies. The depth is now there to set your story at any point during this history and to develop numerous ideas. So much stuff can happen.

With the singular event version, and a static fact of a necromancy cult in the frozen wastes, things are much more limited and linear, with less depth to play with.

Also remember that your characters will not be expected to know everything about your world unless they are experts in religion and/or history, and also the 2 subjects are not mutually inclusive so a historian is not an expert theologian and vice versa. How much the average person on the street knows depends on levels of formal education, accessible knowledge beyond formal education, which may include religious instruction and folklore, and propaganda. But it means you can build in some subtle things - like the puppet symbols on the door of an osteopath or bone doctor - that never need to be explained, but have a logical in-world explanation below the surface.

Try taking a static idea and work it into a system and see where it leads!

EDIT: I'm doing a workshop on Build A Hellscape at the Devils and Justified Sinners online conference, Saturday 24th Aug 2024, 9AM UK Time. Sign up below:

[spot-the-antisemitism]

*looks at bingo card* this more of a community question but have we had any people apologize for their antisemetism only to follow up with "the zionists/bad jews/israel made me do it"

Dear anon,

not in a "the devil made me do it" way, no. There have been a lot of stories about people claiming they attacked because the Israelis are just soooo attackable and killable and pogromable but we have no "confessions of a a justified sinner" yet

we also haven't had that many apologies for antisemitism yet, it's not hip yet to say "OH I was just following orders", give it a few years.

may I see the rest of your bingo card or is that a faux pas in the "predict the future of real life events and expect a prize if you prediction lotto has 5 across" fandom?

please write back you fascinating person,

Cecil

[ludinusdaleth]

re: your post about xerxes' innocence and optimism being seen as flaws or almost made into a joke. i think both the outside knowledge that asmodeus is a lying opportunist the internet's borderline hero worship of brennan also adds to this; they believe xerxes is meant to be /punished/ for being stupid and selfish enough to trust a devil.

i think you've hit the target pretty well, anon.

i do want to clarify i dont think zerxus is "innocent" in nature about the gods. he knew who asmodeus was; he read about him often, feeling kinship. but i think that speaks to how fundamentally empathetic zerxus is that he turned his anguish over being lonely, isolated from his son, his husband, even his own party, and turned that to feeling almost.... kindness. and it came pouring out, all these feelings of projection and wishing to care for someone again, onto asmodeus. i deeply sympathize on that front; he wants to believe that anyone can be saved because he doesnt know how to fix himself and the broken pieces of his life. is that arrogance, to seek some shred of kindness to prove that it exists?

what bothers me is labeling zerxus arrogant (and all the other traits people detest him for) came from asmodeus's mouth. at the time, the fanbase would not trust a word he said - not his canon past with divine family, not his anguish over losing that family, nothing that zerxus saw and empathized with - but they did all think asmodeus wasnt lying when he said zerxus was arrogant. when what is significant about asmo calling him that is hes projecting as much as zerx is. and the thing is, in canon we know zerxus's belief isn't fruitless (and i think asmodeus knows it deep down too). we know the gods struggle with emotion as much as mortals do (see literally the same scene, zerxus saying asmo hates so purely because he hates himself and asmo biting his lip in fury knowing he cant respond back without proving him right), and can even be swayed to listen (asmodeus is having to help the other gods and mortals right now). we know folk like jester who saw kindness where there genuinely wasnt and still managed to help others find it anyway. it was simply the wrong place at the wrong time. it was the age of arcanum. it was cruel. and zerxus's flaws, while fascinating and many, were not hubris or arrogance. id say his fatal move was being blinded by love that was marred by projection, and he could not see (between his low intelligence score and his desperation) how his love specifically was so important to be weaponized.

as for the brennan point, i do enjoy his dm'ing, but any time he dms for cr you can feel people act like hes here to.... punish? straighten out the kinks? especially right now. somehow fans expect a man they obsess over being a leftist to justify aeorian genocide, "fix" matt & aabria's very long standing interpretations of gods as complex individuals who canonically colonized exandria in such a way that even mortals call it out. i think a large part of that is why they interpreted zerx as "arrogant terrible man righteously suffers under his choices". but.... even brennan gave zerx a chance because he chose to unwaveringly redeem. even he said that his love & hope was not wrong. luis likes & replies kindly to posts on twitter about people who relate to zerxus for being manipulated & abused for choosing to love. matt has said asmodeus is so aware of how fundamentally good zerxus is that he wont let him leave his side. you may choose to read brennan's interpretation of the devil as a christian one punishing sinners, but cr wouldnt be cr if every story did not come down to unending hope & empathy & belief in others even if it took a thousand years for it to come to fruition. and brennan is part of the enduring of that idea.

[jessequinnfirstofhername]

Hope I'm doing this right, lol. HH confessions.

Guitarspear/Guardrock: Amazing ship that gets done so dirty by this fandom. I loooove me some villain love. Give me the most awful, toxic people imaginable and make them soft for each other (looking at you, Vees), and I am absolutely sold.

But it feels like half the Guitarspear shippers are hellbent on turning Adam and Lute into these uwu noble martyr angels with sad backstories that justify why they absolutely must commit mass slaughter against defenseless sinners every year. You know, despite Adam straight-up admitting they do it for the fun of it (in song form!). Let them be toxic. Let them be evil. Let them be assholes, ffs. That’s why I love this ship, not to read about how they actually are the last heroic bastion standing between heaven falling into chaos. I really don't recognize Adam or Lute in half the stuff I read them in.

Honestly, anyone who takes the stand that heaven is right in this show can eat my whole ass.

Full disclosure: I hate Adam with the burning fury of a thousand supernovas, so I'm not a huge fan of any Adam-related ship. I may or may not have cackled maniacally when he was stabbed to death.

So, as the world's biggest Adam Anti, I never noticed the Adam x Lute ship getting the uwu treatment. That's... a weird decision. Again, I don't like Adam, but wouldn't a lot of the fun of any ship with Adam in it- especially Adam x Lute as she's such a psycho- be what a horrible person he is? As you say: Let them be evil.

To play Devil's Advocate (lol), I do think that people are free to do whatever they like in fanon. If you want to woobie-fy awful characters, you do you. But Adam and Lute getting whitewashed confuses me. What's the appeal in it?

-Jesse xx

[mistystarshine]

🧩 ⇢ what will make you click away from a fanfiction immediately?

💌 ⇢ how many unread emails do you have right now? 

🍬 ⇢ post an unpopular opinion about a popular fandom character

1. Character bashing. It doesn't matter who the character is, if they're OOC in a way that makes them significantly worse than they are in canon, my ass is OUT. Doubly so if it's to make it easier to get a ship together.

Please note that I do NOT consider exploring the negative aspects of a character to be character bashing. @megaunhappybunny 's Stolitz one-shot was not character bashing no matter what she says, because it delves into a negative thing that actually did happen in canon. However, saying that Lucifer is actually a manipulative evil asshole and using "well he's the devil" to justify it is character bashing AND either ignoring or butchering the whole point of the source material. (Like. Why are you even here?)

On the flip side, Adam is a horrible bastard with a lot of flaws that can easily be delved into. I do believe that his narrative purpose post S1 is to be an extremely challenging sinner for Charlie to redeem, but you don't have to reach far to make him a villain. Saying that Adam is a bad guy and thoroughly in the wrong is in no way character bashing. However! Saying that he's abusive toward Lute, doesn't actually care, and would throw her away like trash the second she is no longer useful to him is character bashing, since his relationship with Lute is his one canonical redeeming trait at this point. I honestly feel like painting misogyny as The Point of his character counts for both him and Lute, in a way. Misogyny is a flaw on Adam's part and definitely worth exploring. However, anyone who says that it's the main subject where Adam and Lute are concerned is seriously missing the point of both characters. Misogyny is Adam's secondary jackassery, vengeful obsession is Lute's. The main sin for Adam and Lute is their horrendous bigotry for sinners, self-righteousness, and seeing them as worthless to the point of slaughtering them yearly. They are both equally culpable of this.

I bring this up because I find that fics that take this route also say that Lute only hurt people because Adam forced her too and isn't actually culpable of her action, which I feel massively deprives her of agency while simultaneously making Adam even worse than he is. But, again, this usually ties back to "Adam was abusive toward Lute", because it's a nice way to shuck culpability off Lute's shoulders and make her easily shippable with Emily/Charlie/whomever. Just like "well Lucifer is the devil and hell is dangerous" makes Adam far less horrible than he is, allowing him to be retroactively made a hero. And how "Lilith is a manipulative abusive bitch" makes it easy to yank Lucifer away from her to put him with Alastor or Adam. (Note: there is more wiggle room with Lilith, since she's had no screentime, but a lot of stuff just makes her a flat villain with no nuance.) Or how "Vaggie is a mean, uncaring, controlling girlfriend" allows Charlie to be thrown as Alastor.

IN SHORT. Character bashing is lazy writing. You can work around all of those things without throwing characterization under the bus, but a lot of people can't be arsed, so demonization it is.

But! For Hazbin specifically!

Anything that says Adam was right or had the best of intentions with the exterminations. I enjoy the headcanons that he started out as someone who was worthy of heaven and then decayed into who he is today, but the notion that he was actually a good guy all along in season one? Fuuuuck that. Even when character bashing isn't involved, it's a total misreading of the character.

Bible stuff is also an immediate backpeddle for me. Too many of them say that Adam was right and character bash Lucifer. Additionally, bible fans tend to be absolute fucking assholes about insisting that their headcanons are canon and harassing people to follow them. Hate to break it to you, babes, but the entire goddamn point of Hazbin is that the bible - at least the one that damns people for all eternity - is wrong. It so very aggressively doesn't play Bible lore straight. So why the fuck would I want to read a fic that does, let alone write one? I'm here to write about Hazbin Hotel, not the bible. I really don't know how so many people managed to miss this, but they are, in fact, separate things.

Fun fact! The "You NEED to acknowledge all the suffering Adam went through on earth and his romance with Eve and how he was a good dad and-" dickwads are also why I refuse to write any biblical characters who appear on the show and will not be acknowledging Abel's existence until season two comes out and I find out if he's the two-faced villain that I suspect and want or I will simply hate him.

Note: There are a very few people who I will read fics including bible stuff from, but they are exclusively people I know and fics that I was already invested in and had been writing the characters well (read: not making Lucifer the villain or handwaving Adam's actions) by the time the Bible stuff crept in, thus making me go "fuck it". However, enough bible lore fics are of the heaven is good and just and right mindset that I am not willing to give them a chance, point blank.

2. We Won't Be Talking About That

3. Adam is a villain and was completely in the wrong?

Jk.

Alastor is better as a villain than a morally gray hero. I could potentially see him being redeemed very late into canon and will read a very small selection of fics with it (hi @cubanellefatalii), but saying that he was actually a good guy right off the bat defeats the entire purpose of the character.

Also, Valentino is a scumbag, but he's an interesting character who adds to the narrative in a writing level. Fight me.

[walkwithgod07]

11 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.