#cw shipping discourse

[roomwithavoid]

whatever your stance on proship/antiship/whatever i think we should all agree centering your personality around how “problematic” you are and how you make everyone around you uncomfortable and/or upset like a lot of proshippers do is really fucking insufferable and childish.

[am-i-the-asshole-official]

AITA for 'outing' someone for writing inc*st?

I (20F) am in a moderately large fandom that got popular during the pandemic. Most of the fic for this fandom is gen and platonic pairings, which is a rarity and fantastic. One of the most popular creators in the fandom puts out a ton of gen fics that I really loved. Unfortunately, I learned after that they write fics on a different account, and not just any fics, but inc*st. I'm not talking about found family. These characters are literal brothers in canon. I can't believe anyone would ship them together, much less this person. I unfollowed them and now, whenever I see anyone talking about how much they love this creator, I inform them about the alt account and their ships. Ignorance may be bliss, but I felt awful when I found out and realized I'd been supporting them for so long and I don't want anyone else to feel that way. But someone replied to one of my comments calling me the asshole, telling me I was outing the creator, and to mind my own business. AITA?

What are these acronyms?

[anendtopursuit]

certain corners of the jayvik shipping community erasing jayce's love for mel and insisting it was never real is frustrating for various reasons

the first (and imo most concerning) is the casual disregarding of mel's character and relationship (a black woman as a primary love interest! something that is unfortunately not as common as it should be!), falling not only into the incredibly common misogynistic fandom tendency to dismiss/demonise women who "get in the way" of mlm ships, but also into the misogynoir of the "disposable black girl" trope - something i implore you to research and consider not only when interacting in fandom spaces but also when critiquing the show itself and its treatment of mel/sky. similar sort of issues come with people dismissing mel's affection for him as manipulation when she's arguably far less manipulative than viktor (gestures @ the whole "he was the person who set jayce on this path the entire time" bombshell), their relationship was always mutually beneficial, and we're shown her perspective multiple times without their relationship ever being portrayed as insincere. how is it not manipulative for jayce to use mel's influence to become a councillor and push heimerdinger out etc, but it's manipulative for mel to make suggestions about the usage of hextech? would you think the same way about these actions if it were viktor doing them?

second of all: insisting that jayce's love for his literal girlfriend must be fake because he's in love with a man feels so oddly strict and binary for such a queer fandom/ship. if paralleling viktor and mel's scenes leads you to interpret his relationship with viktor as romantic, then surely his relationship with mel must still be romantic too for that comparison to make sense? bisexual erasure is especially prevalent when it comes to men and male characters (due to biphobic and misogynistic beliefs about bisexuality being "a women's sexuality" caused by "female promiscuity" or some archaic bullshit like that). insisting that he can only love one and not the other, and then dismissing his affections for mel if you decide he loves viktor, also just reeks to me of the "pick a side" mentality and, again, is weirdly monogamous for such a queer fandom. i realise this may sound like a reach to some people since jayce isn't explicitly canonically bi, but i still think it's a good idea to be cautious about how you have these discussions and any implications they may have, especially if it impacts a real life community that already regularly faces erasure

tl;dr you can be a jayvik liker and also be normal about mel medarda and meljay. please for the love of god be normal about mel medarda and meljay.

[fanby-fckry]

You know what, I gotta say something about the Alastor ship wars.

I’m a multishipper, and I generally think ship wars are silly, but the increase in RadioDust hate combined with RadioApple being posited as the “acceptable” and “wholesome” Alastor ship bugs the fuck out of me.

Because if we look a little closer, I’m pretty sure we can figure out why a relationship between Angel and Alastor is considered “problematic” “unhealthy” or “impossible,” while a relationship between Lucifer and Alastor gets a pass. And the answer is sex.

People cannot be normal about asexuals or sex workers long enough to see them as anything more than their sex lives/lack-thereof, and therefor an asexual and a sex worker are completely incompatible to them.

If you can’t see Angel as anything other than a sex object, then congrats, you’ve missed the entire point of his character. Rewatch Masquerade and Welcome to Heaven, then get back to me.

If you think Alastor isn’t perfectly capable of setting boundaries regarding sex, you’re infantilizing him based on his asexuality. He is not an uwu blushing virgin who needs you to defend his innocence and keep the evil whore from deflowering him. He fucking kills people. Stop white-knighting the fictional serial killer. Asexuals have bodily autonomy just like the rest of you, and this particular ace in the hole is especially capable of maintaining that bodily autonomy.

Alastor’s aromanticism doesn’t factor in here at all, because there are QPR and romantic flavors of both ships, and across the board, RadioDust is treated worse.

It’s ok to not like RadioDust, but when you feel the need to outright attack people over it, then I think it’s time to maybe do a little introspection into why it invokes such a strong reaction. Or at least just block the tag and leave it at that.

Signed,

An aroace RadioApple and RadioDust multishipper who is tired of this nonsense.

[nekropsii]

Hello! First of all, love your work. Wonderful takes and analysis on the alpha trolls, and also i’m a big fan of sovstuck - both the text and the awesome cool art. I love that every character gets introduced with their own unique artstyle, each oozing with character :)

I wanted to ask, - and please believe that i’m asking in good faith, - about your proship dni. I’ve been seeing discourse about ‘pro/anti ship’ for ages now, but i cannot for the life of me understand what the hell either side stands for. First i hear it’s about abusive or problematic (pedo/incest) ships in general, then it’s about the difference of portrayal/endorsement of those things, then it’s something else entirely and i can never fucking understand what the hell the issue is and why it is so heated.

By no means i’m asking you to speak for the whole discourse or even for the entire ‘side’ of it - if there’s one thing i got, it’s that no one can agree on their definition of what ‘their side’ stands for. But i would like to know what meaning you put into the terms, and what kind of ‘proship’ you would like to not interact with you; i trust that you know what you believe in and are able to put it to words in a way that makes sense and doesn’t contradict itself or common sense, as i sometimes see :���)

I.. understand that since the topic is so divisive, you may get a ton of bullshit in your ask box and notes, should you choose to answer this, both from people who disagree and those who choose to misinterpret what you say. So feel free to ignore this ask if you don’t want to deal with that. Still, i do hope i can someday gain some clarity on this topic haha.

Best wishes!! thanks for what you do :)

Hello! Thank you so much, the compliments mean a lot! They really keep me going, lol!!

First of all, congratulations on formulating the most normal ask adjacent to this topic. Since it's so god damn touchy, people have a tendency to start throwing rocks no matter what "side" they're on, and no matter if they know what the hell they're talking about or not. Frankly, some of the ruckus surrounding this circus act is embarrassing. On both ends. Second of all, while this isn't something I'm an expert in, I do know more than I'd like, so I'd be happy to give my perspective, even if it's potentially a bit limited/flawed.

Thirdly, I'm putting this under a cut, for anyone who doesn't want to read all that.

Content Warning: Discussions of Shipping Discourse, Sexual Assault, Abuse, Grooming, Incest, and Pedophilia.

Let me start this by defining what the Relevant Terms mean:

Shipping: The act of pairing two or more Characters together. Though the term is derived from "Relationship", and therefore is at its core - technically, theoretically - a Neutral Term, it - conversationally, colloquially - carries extremely heavy Romantic Connotations, with a strong implication that said Romance is found to be appealing - typically in the sense of being either Cute, or Sexy. Defining this is not me trying to condescend you - One of the key questions in this discourse is what it means to "ship" something, and whether or not the term implies the shipper is condoning the material inherent to the ship.

ProShip: Essentially means "All For All Shipping". It's the personal, discourse-based identity label equivalent to the phrase "Ship And Let Ship". There's a common misconception floating around that the "Pro" in "ProShip" stands for "Problematic", rather than simply being the positive antonym to the prefix "Anti". While I find this to be a failure of basic deductive reasoning, I can also understand how the conclusion was reached - Proshippers are most commonly associated with "Problematic Content"/"Problematic Ships", and they do tend to take pride in being "Problematic" themselves. Either way, the word "Problematic" is highly associated with them and often reclaimed by them. They also call themselves "Anti-Antis" (horribly stupid label, by the way), and "ComShip(pers)", with the "Com" being short for "Complex". To my knowledge, ComShip is a sect specifically trying to get away from the baggage that the term "ProShip" holds, and away from the very real predator problem within the ProShip Community. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

AntiShip: Essentially means "Against Certain Forms of Shipping". It actually used to be a term for people who were against specific individual ships, rather than a blanket discourse label - for example, rather than someone identifying as just an "Antishipper", they would typically label themselves as "Anti-VrisMeen", or a "VrisMeen-Anti", or whatever their focus was. An important thing to note is that Antis trend Young, and they trend Traumatized. They are typically Teenagers, and their stances are largely informed by their discomfort watching Adults Sexualize Characters who share their age or younger, and discomfort watching people Sexualize some kind of Trauma they've been through - and considering their general ages, it's not unlikely that that Trauma is either Fresh or Ongoing. This is not always the case, but it's such a large amount of the AntiShip crowd, and it's acknowledged so little, that it's worth mentioning. It's a very important piece of context to me.

The general Belief Systems of both sides, as they currently stand, are as follows:

ProShip: ==> Never Harass Anyone Over Their Ships: This is the bones of their beliefs, and where everything started. Essentially, it's rude and unnecessary to send people Harassment over a Ship they enjoy, because not only could you be doing something better with your time, but also it can be pretty difficult to tell the "How/What/Why" of someone's interest in such material. ==> All Forms of Shipping Should Be Allowed, No Matter The Content: This is the meat of their beliefs, and also where the arguing starts. It's exactly what it says on the tin - Anything Goes, including Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. This is why the label is so touchy - many people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of Fandom going back to its habit of uncritically normalizing + romanticizing Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. Part of this is due to the fact that this uncritical normalization has led to genuine, tangible harm on people in Fandom Spaces, particularly Minors. ==> Being Problematic Is Based: The skin of their beliefs. Many people wrap up Shipping Discourse in terms that make it sound like engaging in it is Political Praxis, somehow. While your stance on Shipping Discourse can certainly be telling of your Political Beliefs, in the way that your stance on literally anything can be telling of that, calling Shipping Discourse on its own some kind of Radical Political Stance is... Deeply silly, and also keeps leading to people saying "Being into Incest/Pedophilia is Queer Nature", like, unironically. I keep seeing this happen. This part of it tends to be very... Spite-driven. ==> Fiction Is Not Reality: Basically their catchphrase - nothing that happens in fiction is real, and therefore has no tangible effect on reality.

AntiShip: ==> Please Tag Your Content Appropriately And Keep It Out Of The Reach Of Minors: The bones of their beliefs. Self Explanatory, typically followed up with "and if you can't do that, don't post/make it at all". To further illustrate this, I'd like to spark any reader's memory of the times where you couldn't Google search "Fluttershy" without being lambasted with hardcore porn. No additions of "R34", or "NSFW", just "Fluttershy". There was no SFW Filters. You just had to fucking fight for your life. Being a child on the Internet is and was extremely rough. There wasn't any Official Tag Filtering on Tumblr until... I think 2017. It was dark. ==> Abuse/Rape/Incest/Pedophilia Should Not Be Considered "Shipping": The meat of their beliefs. Essentially, these are extremely heavy, delicate topics meant to be treated with respect and tact, or not handled at all. This is not possible in Shipping Content. At least, not as we currently understand it, and will likely remain understanding in that way for years to come. They argue that Fanfiction is not ever going to be on par with Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita. Which is true. They also argue that it's impossible for most Fanfictions to treat these sensitive subjects with any respect, which is... Dubious, but also fair, considering the Sturgeon's Law of it all. ==> Ewwwww...: The skin of their beliefs. Disgust. It's a whole lot of disgust. Again, worth reiterating that the bulk of AntiShippers are quite Young and/or Traumatized, and the content they are reacting to tends to be Extreme, so a gut response of disgust is... Honestly, healthy. No 15 Year Old should be stumbling upon art of a child getting frisky with their dad and going "hell yeah, brother!". Though I wish they'd handle their disgust with more tact, I find that it's just... A fair response, given their age, what their backstory tends to be, and what content they tend to be reacting to is. ==> Fiction Affects Reality: Not necessarily their catchphrase, but definitely their counterpoint to the catchphrase of ProShippers. They do not say Fiction is real, just that it does literally have a tangible effect on reality, and point to cases where this is observable. The impact Jaws had on real life sharks is a favorite, as is The Birth of a Nation, and The Turner Diaries. And, of course, the ways that the works put out by ProShippers has tangibly affected the lives of others, especially children.

It is worth noting, I am neither of these things. I do not identify as a ProShipper, nor do I identify as an AntiShipper. I identify as a Horror Writer. I have "DNI: ProShip" in my bio because their stances make me the most uncomfortable, and I have been victimized personally by members of their crowd and the result of their beliefs.

I was Groomed by an Adult ProShipper when I was 14 Years Old. She used her ideologies as a ProShipper to excuse herself and the (sexual) content she forced me to Roleplay with her, and used it to pressure me into writing more and more extreme content. I did not want to do it even at the time - it made me uncomfortable - but she made the idea of saying "No" to her... Quite scary, and like I was the one in the wrong for being uncomfortable with it. After all, Fiction Isn't Reality, right? I am not the only person I know with this experiences. I have met and spoken to countless - and I mean countless - individuals who have had similar experiences with that crowd. The sheer distrust kids and teens tend to have towards them is learned through that crowd's propensity towards grooming them. Because the celebration and normalization of that content breeds comfortability with "the real deal", and comfortability with harboring predators.

I'm sure some ProShippers have noble intentions, and don't realize what the controversy is about. I'm sure some of them are deeply out of the loop, and still think it only means "Being Anti-Harassment". But I do not care enough to give people the chance, just... For the sake of my own sanity. You understand, I'm sure. I do not think that this rift between worlds is ever going to get closed, or that these sides are going to experience amicability, because the question is nuanced and about morality itself, and one side is full of defensive, traumatized teenagers trying to keep themselves and their friends safe from what they are perceiving as legitimate threats to their safety, and the other side is full of people who just wanna jerk it to weird porn.

I'm not personally comfortable with, like, any self-identified ProShipper being near me, just due to my own experiences. Some might try to identify me as one against my will, due to the fact that I am Anti-Harassment and a Horror Writer unafraid to touch upon every single one of the aforementioned sensitive topics, but... I am simply not one, because I don't identify that way, I don't believe in their beliefs, and they creep me out, lol.

My beliefs are that people should be able to write about whatever they want, as long as they handle things with the appropriate amount of care, and as long as they keep things tagged appropriately. I think that harassing people for shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing literally anything else with your time, and I think shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing anything else with your time. Like, come on, man, it's not even interesting. They're not even doing anything interesting with it. Where are the themes? There are no themes. It's just brothers mackin' on each other whitely. Come on.

No topic should be off limits, but you should at least give it the care and respect it deserves, and you should make it interesting. Nothing is interesting on its own. Rape is not interesting on its own. Incest is not interesting on its own. Abuse is not interesting on its own. Pedophilia is not interesting on its own. Taboo subjects are not interesting on their own. They're mundane evils that happen literally every day to regular people. In writing, they need to be paired with themes, and, hopefully, with good writing. People who have been through these things deserve not only to have their trauma represented, but handled with care, and also for it to be interesting to read. They deserve to have options. They deserve to have good literature to chew on, to help them digest and cope with their own trauma. It's difficult to do that when you feel invisible to everything but the camera lens of a Fetish Pornographer, and I know many people who are suffering with the fact that their traumas seem to only ever be represented or referenced in shitty pornography.

Sure, some people cope with their own trauma by sexualizing it. I know that's the case for some ProShippers, and their reason for being within that group. But it's certainly not everyone's method of coping, and it shouldn't be the only option... Which is why I'm advocating for safe, non-fetishized exploration of extreme themes.

I think the reason why the discourse is so unclear is because "ProShip" and "AntiShip" aren't very tangible, definite belief systems, and also the talking points are evolving and maturing over time. A few years ago, the beliefs of "Antis" definitely broadly leaned more heavily towards total rejection of those themes being present in any fiction, but their arguments seem to have matured lately into "the problem is the nature of the depiction, not the presence of depiction itself".

That's all I can think of saying right now that wouldn't just be me walking in circles. And don't worry, I can definitely take the hit. I'm not sure what here could be very arguable other than semantics, or maybe a history lesson or two.

Thank you for the ask! Hope this helps!

[weirdly-specific-but-ok]

hot take about silco x vander that no one asked for

okay so it's 3:25 am and i spent too much time in pinterest comment sections so now i have Thoughts and y'all are gonna hear it (this is mostly spoiler free even for s1 but it won't make much sense unless you've watched arcane so go wATCH IT if you haven't). so there were a bunch of posts shipping Silco and Vander and in the comments people were really pissed coz they're said to think of each other as brothers.

TLDR: They did not grow up as brothers, they think of each other as such, and those thoughts can change over time or evolve without it being incestuous (with nuance), and of course it could stay the same too.

and I have a bunch of things to say, starting with for one, some folks were legitimately confused because they thought silco and vander were biological siblings. so, first off, let's get that clarified, they're definitely not. they weren't adopted or step siblings either. they met in their early adulthood, i believe, in the mines.

i'm gonna continue below the cut coz this is gonna be looooong.

now, the thing is, silco and vander explicitly state that they were each other's brothers and/or call each other brother. why? there could be multiple reasons for that. one, that's how they saw each other. they were as close as brothers and they saw each other as family. two, in the sense of being brothers in arms, fighting together against a common cause that brought them closer. three, they felt affection for each other and that was the closest term they knew to describe it. or something else.

and like, i do not mess with found family, that shit is sacred. if someone told me my brother isn't actually my brother because we didn't grow up together or share blood, i would happily punch them in the throat.

HOWEVER, Silco and Vander are fictional characters. so if someone headcanons that their relationship changed, and evolved, that's not disrespectful or incestuous. it just means the person believes that how they saw each other changed. or maybe they didn't realise how it was that they felt for each other. or any number of other things.

and hey listen when i was a teenager in two of my long-term relationships, i thought at the start that what i felt was platonic love. i'd literally call them my brother. because that was the way i knew to describe the intensity of my affection. i was figuring shit out, and then i realised that what i felt was romantic, and not platonic or familial.

does that make it incestuous? well i fucking hope not. i was a queer greyace teen trying to figure out what the fuck i was feeling.

and that's not even toUCHING the surface of queerplatonic feelings. like i had no vocabulary to describe that for most of my life. it was clearcut in my head--romantic, or platonic. and if platonic was very intense, then sibling. that was the only way i knew how to describe it.

and that's changed over the years and now i know a little bit better how i feel, and i have platonic feelings that aren't siblingy, platonic feelings that are very much siblingy, platonic feelings that aren't siblingy but familial anyway like that for a parent, and romantic feelings also of various shades.

but back then, i didn't have that vocabulary and distinctions and self-awareness. and it's entirely plausible for someone to headcanon that maybe Silco and Vander didn't either. maybe people ship them and hc that they had feelings for each other and didn't understand them, that could be romantic or queerplatonic. or had feelings for each other that were familial, but that evolved in a different way later (or in the AU). both of which ARE LEGITIMATE INTERPRETATIONS OF A FICTIONAL RELATIONSHIP WITHOUT IT BEING INCESTUOUS.

anyway so it's entirely chill if you don't ship them but it's also entirely chill if you do. the issue is when you attack people for interpreting a fictional relationship in their own entirely valid way and call it weird or incestuous and attack them as people for their ship. just let people be sigh.

so that's my unnecessarily intense take at--jesus christ it's nearly 4 am. :)

[qiu-yan]

wow this post got depressing really fast. sorry

if you think about it. if you were just some random no-name cultivator who somehow got invited to the phoenix mountain night-hunt, and you heard something about 1. hanguang-jun of the sterling reputation, 2. wei wuxian the demonic cultivator already flouting social norms, and 3. a forced kiss....which would you believe? that lan wangji forcibly kissed wei wuxian? or that wei wuxian forcibly kissed lan wangji?

depressing thoughts.

[enemywasp]

Tiktok antis are getting WAY too comfortable with the insane stuff they say about proshippers

CW DEATH THREATS, JOKES OF VIOLENCE

Like what the hell makes them think that's okay??? And I hope these are just them trying to be funny cause I have known antis to send actual shit to proshippers.

[ninja-confession-go]

I genuinely fucking hate the uwu-ification of Jay Walker. My guy is canonically strong both physically and mentally, was the first to master spinjitzu, airjitzu, and shatterspin, as well as having one of the most powerful elements in the show.

As a transsexual man who sees a lot of himself in Jay, the way in which some people feminize him just because of his insecurities or the fact that he's canonically short is so disgusting and actually kinda makes me assume that your media comprehension skills aren't very developed.

I especially hate the girlboss x malewife-ification of Jaya, and how it occasionally veers into the territory of "he's an emotional mess and she's emotionally neglectful" rather than "these are two strong and capable people who support each other." Canon Jaya does a lot of Jay character assassination in order to make Nya look more independent of him or not just "Jay's girlfriend" when in reality, Jay has just become "Nya's boyfriend."

.

[sanjipussyindulgence]

wtf is wrong with fandom culture nowadays. why do people act like the only way they can ship something is if they prove its canon first. you dont need to do all that. you can just like the ship. it doesnt matter what the creators say. this site used to be about hiccup from how to train your dragon and jack frost from rise of the guardians kissing for fucks sake.

[the-mcyt-crackships-brackets]

You are disgustting why are you shipping scott with a women he's gay go kill yourself

hey!!! hello anon you seem very kind and responsible and capable of coherent thoughts so let me tell you some stuff

Did you know? clownpierce is a guy, yeah a boy! sorry to break it to you anon but murder clown does not have boobas (even if he should)

Scott never said anythin about feeling weird being shipped with girl, uh idk

Are you mad we shipped a bunch of straight dudes together? are you mad??

We are three so next time you want us to kill ourselves, please be inclusive!

[am-i-the-asshole-official]

AITA For Not Tagging a Work?

I, 32F, write primarily for my own enjoyment, my main platform being AO3. I currently have a multi-chaoter series that includes several major plot twists, including one that includes non-con. To avoid spoiling it, because I believe my stories deserve to be read with as little background info as possible, I only tag it as "Creator CHOSE not to Include Archive Warnings". Which is, as I hope is obvious, is not synonymous with "There Are No Warnings". The point is, I don't use the Rape/Non-con tag. Recently, I got a very upset reader in my comments complaining about how triggering that chapter of my work is, and that's where I have a problem. I believe the corporate obsession content warnings pervading even fanworks to be a major problem. I don't want to sanitize my work, but I do get that they contain pretty heavy themes. But I feel like I seriously do give my stories a disservice by adding labels on them, and maybe I am the asshole for this, but I value my pride and joy (my work) over strangers online. AITA?

What are these acronyms?

[tommyssupercoolblog]

Vent about Antis

obvs this convo would never happen they would be blocked already but. aguhgh.

[haley-harrison]

tbh the main cause of shipping wars is that jackles is too good at his job. Man has convincing chemistry with most of his coworkers, so depending on which scenes you focus on, you can gather a convincing argument for your ship of choice.

like if you look just at the first three seasons, j2 have such insane chemistry you have to be blind not to notice. (case in point, even my mother, who is otherwise a normal 62-y-o was like 'well that's not a normal brother relationship'). add the lack of significant alternative options, and it's clear why the early days had so many wincest shippers. Like, duh. You see two hot guys who look at each other with adoration (and lip-licking), brain's gonna ship. Fiction isn't reality anyway.

However, then comes s4. Now, I think Misha is awesome and funny and great, and obviously he and Jensen hit it off. Enough that it shows on screen. That said, the script was still written as Kripke intended, which is that Sam and Dean are obsessed with each other.

Because it's a fact, that Kripke read Siken's Crush, and also On the Road, and wrote Sam and Dean very much under that influence. And if you read either of those, you know they're about gay lovers.

So. There's a conflict between the script (which is samdean coded), and the acting (where jenmish actually gets more and more intense with time).

And the thing is, both sides of the fandom have solid 'evidence' on why their ship is (practically) canon. And it sucks to see people actually fight and insult each other.

I am a multishipper: I have an OTP but I see the appeal of other pairings and occasionally read those too. And I wish we could all see that plurality of opinions is good. Fiction is meant to be discussed, there isn't one correct answer.

At the end of the day, we're here to have fun with this trash show (affectionate), so maybe let's do that without judging?

[fanby-fckry]

I feel like some people need to see this, tbh

[iwishallantisaverypleasantstop]

profic ppl: make ten thousand disclaimers abt not condoning the things they read n write abt

antis: collect csem, commit murder

but tell me who the bad people are again