#cw shipping discourse

[roomwithavoid]

whatever your stance on proship/antiship/whatever i think we should all agree centering your personality around how “problematic” you are and how you make everyone around you uncomfortable and/or upset like a lot of proshippers do is really fucking insufferable and childish.

[am-i-the-asshole-official]

AITA for 'outing' someone for writing inc*st?

I (20F) am in a moderately large fandom that got popular during the pandemic. Most of the fic for this fandom is gen and platonic pairings, which is a rarity and fantastic. One of the most popular creators in the fandom puts out a ton of gen fics that I really loved. Unfortunately, I learned after that they write fics on a different account, and not just any fics, but inc*st. I'm not talking about found family. These characters are literal brothers in canon. I can't believe anyone would ship them together, much less this person. I unfollowed them and now, whenever I see anyone talking about how much they love this creator, I inform them about the alt account and their ships. Ignorance may be bliss, but I felt awful when I found out and realized I'd been supporting them for so long and I don't want anyone else to feel that way. But someone replied to one of my comments calling me the asshole, telling me I was outing the creator, and to mind my own business. AITA?

What are these acronyms?

[fanby-fckry]

I feel like some people need to see this, tbh

[nekropsii]

Hello! First of all, love your work. Wonderful takes and analysis on the alpha trolls, and also i’m a big fan of sovstuck - both the text and the awesome cool art. I love that every character gets introduced with their own unique artstyle, each oozing with character :)

I wanted to ask, - and please believe that i’m asking in good faith, - about your proship dni. I’ve been seeing discourse about ‘pro/anti ship’ for ages now, but i cannot for the life of me understand what the hell either side stands for. First i hear it’s about abusive or problematic (pedo/incest) ships in general, then it’s about the difference of portrayal/endorsement of those things, then it’s something else entirely and i can never fucking understand what the hell the issue is and why it is so heated.

By no means i’m asking you to speak for the whole discourse or even for the entire ‘side’ of it - if there’s one thing i got, it’s that no one can agree on their definition of what ‘their side’ stands for. But i would like to know what meaning you put into the terms, and what kind of ‘proship’ you would like to not interact with you; i trust that you know what you believe in and are able to put it to words in a way that makes sense and doesn’t contradict itself or common sense, as i sometimes see :”)

I.. understand that since the topic is so divisive, you may get a ton of bullshit in your ask box and notes, should you choose to answer this, both from people who disagree and those who choose to misinterpret what you say. So feel free to ignore this ask if you don’t want to deal with that. Still, i do hope i can someday gain some clarity on this topic haha.

Best wishes!! thanks for what you do :)

Hello! Thank you so much, the compliments mean a lot! They really keep me going, lol!!

First of all, congratulations on formulating the most normal ask adjacent to this topic. Since it's so god damn touchy, people have a tendency to start throwing rocks no matter what "side" they're on, and no matter if they know what the hell they're talking about or not. Frankly, some of the ruckus surrounding this circus act is embarrassing. On both ends. Second of all, while this isn't something I'm an expert in, I do know more than I'd like, so I'd be happy to give my perspective, even if it's potentially a bit limited/flawed.

Thirdly, I'm putting this under a cut, for anyone who doesn't want to read all that.

Content Warning: Discussions of Shipping Discourse, Sexual Assault, Abuse, Grooming, Incest, and Pedophilia.

Let me start this by defining what the Relevant Terms mean:

Shipping: The act of pairing two or more Characters together. Though the term is derived from "Relationship", and therefore is at its core - technically, theoretically - a Neutral Term, it - conversationally, colloquially - carries extremely heavy Romantic Connotations, with a strong implication that said Romance is found to be appealing - typically in the sense of being either Cute, or Sexy. Defining this is not me trying to condescend you - One of the key questions in this discourse is what it means to "ship" something, and whether or not the term implies the shipper is condoning the material inherent to the ship.

ProShip: Essentially means "All For All Shipping". It's the personal, discourse-based identity label equivalent to the phrase "Ship And Let Ship". There's a common misconception floating around that the "Pro" in "ProShip" stands for "Problematic", rather than simply being the positive antonym to the prefix "Anti". While I find this to be a failure of basic deductive reasoning, I can also understand how the conclusion was reached - Proshippers are most commonly associated with "Problematic Content"/"Problematic Ships", and they do tend to take pride in being "Problematic" themselves. Either way, the word "Problematic" is highly associated with them and often reclaimed by them. They also call themselves "Anti-Antis" (horribly stupid label, by the way), and "ComShip(pers)", with the "Com" being short for "Complex". To my knowledge, ComShip is a sect specifically trying to get away from the baggage that the term "ProShip" holds, and away from the very real predator problem within the ProShip Community. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

AntiShip: Essentially means "Against Certain Forms of Shipping". It actually used to be a term for people who were against specific individual ships, rather than a blanket discourse label - for example, rather than someone identifying as just an "Antishipper", they would typically label themselves as "Anti-VrisMeen", or a "VrisMeen-Anti", or whatever their focus was. An important thing to note is that Antis trend Young, and they trend Traumatized. They are typically Teenagers, and their stances are largely informed by their discomfort watching Adults Sexualize Characters who share their age or younger, and discomfort watching people Sexualize some kind of Trauma they've been through - and considering their general ages, it's not unlikely that that Trauma is either Fresh or Ongoing. This is not always the case, but it's such a large amount of the AntiShip crowd, and it's acknowledged so little, that it's worth mentioning. It's a very important piece of context to me.

The general Belief Systems of both sides, as they currently stand, are as follows:

ProShip: ==> Never Harass Anyone Over Their Ships: This is the bones of their beliefs, and where everything started. Essentially, it's rude and unnecessary to send people Harassment over a Ship they enjoy, because not only could you be doing something better with your time, but also it can be pretty difficult to tell the "How/What/Why" of someone's interest in such material. ==> All Forms of Shipping Should Be Allowed, No Matter The Content: This is the meat of their beliefs, and also where the arguing starts. It's exactly what it says on the tin - Anything Goes, including Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. This is why the label is so touchy - many people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of Fandom going back to its habit of uncritically normalizing + romanticizing Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. Part of this is due to the fact that this uncritical normalization has led to genuine, tangible harm on people in Fandom Spaces, particularly Minors. ==> Being Problematic Is Based: The skin of their beliefs. Many people wrap up Shipping Discourse in terms that make it sound like engaging in it is Political Praxis, somehow. While your stance on Shipping Discourse can certainly be telling of your Political Beliefs, in the way that your stance on literally anything can be telling of that, calling Shipping Discourse on its own some kind of Radical Political Stance is... Deeply silly, and also keeps leading to people saying "Being into Incest/Pedophilia is Queer Nature", like, unironically. I keep seeing this happen. This part of it tends to be very... Spite-driven. ==> Fiction Is Not Reality: Basically their catchphrase - nothing that happens in fiction is real, and therefore has no tangible effect on reality.

AntiShip: ==> Please Tag Your Content Appropriately And Keep It Out Of The Reach Of Minors: The bones of their beliefs. Self Explanatory, typically followed up with "and if you can't do that, don't post/make it at all". To further illustrate this, I'd like to spark any reader's memory of the times where you couldn't Google search "Fluttershy" without being lambasted with hardcore porn. No additions of "R34", or "NSFW", just "Fluttershy". There was no SFW Filters. You just had to fucking fight for your life. Being a child on the Internet is and was extremely rough. There wasn't any Official Tag Filtering on Tumblr until... I think 2017. It was dark. ==> Abuse/Rape/Incest/Pedophilia Should Not Be Considered "Shipping": The meat of their beliefs. Essentially, these are extremely heavy, delicate topics meant to be treated with respect and tact, or not handled at all. This is not possible in Shipping Content. At least, not as we currently understand it, and will likely remain understanding in that way for years to come. They argue that Fanfiction is not ever going to be on par with Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita. Which is true. They also argue that it's impossible for most Fanfictions to treat these sensitive subjects with any respect, which is... Dubious, but also fair, considering the Sturgeon's Law of it all. ==> Ewwwww...: The skin of their beliefs. Disgust. It's a whole lot of disgust. Again, worth reiterating that the bulk of AntiShippers are quite Young and/or Traumatized, and the content they are reacting to tends to be Extreme, so a gut response of disgust is... Honestly, healthy. No 15 Year Old should be stumbling upon art of a child getting frisky with their dad and going "hell yeah, brother!". Though I wish they'd handle their disgust with more tact, I find that it's just... A fair response, given their age, what their backstory tends to be, and what content they tend to be reacting to is. ==> Fiction Affects Reality: Not necessarily their catchphrase, but definitely their counterpoint to the catchphrase of ProShippers. They do not say Fiction is real, just that it does literally have a tangible effect on reality, and point to cases where this is observable. The impact Jaws had on real life sharks is a favorite, as is The Birth of a Nation, and The Turner Diaries. And, of course, the ways that the works put out by ProShippers has tangibly affected the lives of others, especially children.

It is worth noting, I am neither of these things. I do not identify as a ProShipper, nor do I identify as an AntiShipper. I identify as a Horror Writer. I have "DNI: ProShip" in my bio because their stances make me the most uncomfortable, and I have been victimized personally by members of their crowd and the result of their beliefs.

I was Groomed by an Adult ProShipper when I was 14 Years Old. She used her ideologies as a ProShipper to excuse herself and the (sexual) content she forced me to Roleplay with her, and used it to pressure me into writing more and more extreme content. I did not want to do it even at the time - it made me uncomfortable - but she made the idea of saying "No" to her... Quite scary, and like I was the one in the wrong for being uncomfortable with it. After all, Fiction Isn't Reality, right? I am not the only person I know with this experiences. I have met and spoken to countless - and I mean countless - individuals who have had similar experiences with that crowd. The sheer distrust kids and teens tend to have towards them is learned through that crowd's propensity towards grooming them. Because the celebration and normalization of that content breeds comfortability with "the real deal", and comfortability with harboring predators.

I'm sure some ProShippers have noble intentions, and don't realize what the controversy is about. I'm sure some of them are deeply out of the loop, and still think it only means "Being Anti-Harassment". But I do not care enough to give people the chance, just... For the sake of my own sanity. You understand, I'm sure. I do not think that this rift between worlds is ever going to get closed, or that these sides are going to experience amicability, because the question is nuanced and about morality itself, and one side is full of defensive, traumatized teenagers trying to keep themselves and their friends safe from what they are perceiving as legitimate threats to their safety, and the other side is full of people who just wanna jerk it to weird porn.

I'm not personally comfortable with, like, any self-identified ProShipper being near me, just due to my own experiences. Some might try to identify me as one against my will, due to the fact that I am Anti-Harassment and a Horror Writer unafraid to touch upon every single one of the aforementioned sensitive topics, but... I am simply not one, because I don't identify that way, I don't believe in their beliefs, and they creep me out, lol.

My beliefs are that people should be able to write about whatever they want, as long as they handle things with the appropriate amount of care, and as long as they keep things tagged appropriately. I think that harassing people for shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing literally anything else with your time, and I think shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing anything else with your time. Like, come on, man, it's not even interesting. They're not even doing anything interesting with it. Where are the themes? There are no themes. It's just brothers mackin' on each other whitely. Come on.

No topic should be off limits, but you should at least give it the care and respect it deserves, and you should make it interesting. Nothing is interesting on its own. Rape is not interesting on its own. Incest is not interesting on its own. Abuse is not interesting on its own. Pedophilia is not interesting on its own. Taboo subjects are not interesting on their own. They're mundane evils that happen literally every day to regular people. In writing, they need to be paired with themes, and, hopefully, with good writing. People who have been through these things deserve not only to have their trauma represented, but handled with care, and also for it to be interesting to read. They deserve to have options. They deserve to have good literature to chew on, to help them digest and cope with their own trauma. It's difficult to do that when you feel invisible to everything but the camera lens of a Fetish Pornographer, and I know many people who are suffering with the fact that their traumas seem to only ever be represented or referenced in shitty pornography.

Sure, some people cope with their own trauma by sexualizing it. I know that's the case for some ProShippers, and their reason for being within that group. But it's certainly not everyone's method of coping, and it shouldn't be the only option... Which is why I'm advocating for safe, non-fetishized exploration of extreme themes.

I think the reason why the discourse is so unclear is because "ProShip" and "AntiShip" aren't very tangible, definite belief systems, and also the talking points are evolving and maturing over time. A few years ago, the beliefs of "Antis" definitely broadly leaned more heavily towards total rejection of those themes being present in any fiction, but their arguments seem to have matured lately into "the problem is the nature of the depiction, not the presence of depiction itself".

That's all I can think of saying right now that wouldn't just be me walking in circles. And don't worry, I can definitely take the hit. I'm not sure what here could be very arguable other than semantics, or maybe a history lesson or two.

Thank you for the ask! Hope this helps!

[qiu-yan]

wow this post got depressing really fast. sorry

if you think about it. if you were just some random no-name cultivator who somehow got invited to the phoenix mountain night-hunt, and you heard something about 1. hanguang-jun of the sterling reputation, 2. wei wuxian the demonic cultivator already flouting social norms, and 3. a forced kiss....which would you believe? that lan wangji forcibly kissed wei wuxian? or that wei wuxian forcibly kissed lan wangji?

depressing thoughts.

[enemywasp]

Tiktok antis are getting WAY too comfortable with the insane stuff they say about proshippers

CW DEATH THREATS, JOKES OF VIOLENCE

Like what the hell makes them think that's okay??? And I hope these are just them trying to be funny cause I have known antis to send actual shit to proshippers.

[ninja-confession-go]

I genuinely fucking hate the uwu-ification of Jay Walker. My guy is canonically strong both physically and mentally, was the first to master spinjitzu, airjitzu, and shatterspin, as well as having one of the most powerful elements in the show.

As a transsexual man who sees a lot of himself in Jay, the way in which some people feminize him just because of his insecurities or the fact that he's canonically short is so disgusting and actually kinda makes me assume that your media comprehension skills aren't very developed.

I especially hate the girlboss x malewife-ification of Jaya, and how it occasionally veers into the territory of "he's an emotional mess and she's emotionally neglectful" rather than "these are two strong and capable people who support each other." Canon Jaya does a lot of Jay character assassination in order to make Nya look more independent of him or not just "Jay's girlfriend" when in reality, Jay has just become "Nya's boyfriend."

.

[tommyssupercoolblog]

Vent about Antis

obvs this convo would never happen they would be blocked already but. aguhgh.

[haley-harrison]

tbh the main cause of shipping wars is that jackles is too good at his job. Man has convincing chemistry with most of his coworkers, so depending on which scenes you focus on, you can gather a convincing argument for your ship of choice.

like if you look just at the first three seasons, j2 have such insane chemistry you have to be blind not to notice. (case in point, even my mother, who is otherwise a normal 62-y-o was like 'well that's not a normal brother relationship'). add the lack of significant alternative options, and it's clear why the early days had so many wincest shippers. Like, duh. You see two hot guys who look at each other with adoration (and lip-licking), brain's gonna ship. Fiction isn't reality anyway.

However, then comes s4. Now, I think Misha is awesome and funny and great, and obviously he and Jensen hit it off. Enough that it shows on screen. That said, the script was still written as Kripke intended, which is that Sam and Dean are obsessed with each other.

Because it's a fact, that Kripke read Siken's Crush, and also On the Road, and wrote Sam and Dean very much under that influence. And if you read either of those, you know they're about gay lovers.

So. There's a conflict between the script (which is samdean coded), and the acting (where jenmish actually gets more and more intense with time).

And the thing is, both sides of the fandom have solid 'evidence' on why their ship is (practically) canon. And it sucks to see people actually fight and insult each other.

I am a multishipper: I have an OTP but I see the appeal of other pairings and occasionally read those too. And I wish we could all see that plurality of opinions is good. Fiction is meant to be discussed, there isn't one correct answer.

At the end of the day, we're here to have fun with this trash show (affectionate), so maybe let's do that without judging?

[iwishallantisaverypleasantstop]

profic ppl: make ten thousand disclaimers abt not condoning the things they read n write abt

antis: collect csem, commit murder

but tell me who the bad people are again

[am-i-the-asshole-official]

AITA For Not Tagging a Work?

I, 32F, write primarily for my own enjoyment, my main platform being AO3. I currently have a multi-chaoter series that includes several major plot twists, including one that includes non-con. To avoid spoiling it, because I believe my stories deserve to be read with as little background info as possible, I only tag it as "Creator CHOSE not to Include Archive Warnings". Which is, as I hope is obvious, is not synonymous with "There Are No Warnings". The point is, I don't use the Rape/Non-con tag. Recently, I got a very upset reader in my comments complaining about how triggering that chapter of my work is, and that's where I have a problem. I believe the corporate obsession content warnings pervading even fanworks to be a major problem. I don't want to sanitize my work, but I do get that they contain pretty heavy themes. But I feel like I seriously do give my stories a disservice by adding labels on them, and maybe I am the asshole for this, but I value my pride and joy (my work) over strangers online. AITA?

What are these acronyms?

[nullbutler]

look i try to stay out of ship discourse as much as I can, but I can't even believe people would look at the musicals (specifically tango and circus, which have ciel as a tiny 11-13 year old child actor, a tiny tiny tiny little thing who my scrawny ass could probably pick up with one arm) and use them as awful ship fodder

like. straight up. that's a crime. i don't know where it says on paper, but on the basic premise of what divides us as human beings with kindness and self-awareness, and fucking bundles of harm, sexualizing someone that small is a crime. it's different when it comes to drawings and writing (this post isn't about that, its about the musical actors) (this is about the actor, not the character) (there are posts about that, that isn't one, nor do I feel comfortable going on such an angry rant about that), but imposing sexuality onto someone who barely learned fractions is completely ridiculous. you don't sound 'kinky' and 'dark' and 'invested in the true nature of BB' you sound like you need to be on a watchlist.

i don't care if it's black butler. it doesn't matter what fandom that's from, that's not okay. that's never okay. that's never going to be okay. that's a real child. If I found out a friend was viewing the musicals like that, I'm out. it's just revolting, I wouldn't trust anyone who thinks that around real actual kids. does it matter that he's on a screen? no! because he's a kid! that's reality! the. reality. is. that's. a. real. kid. a real kid. a kid that is real. a real kid that walked onto a real stage and sang a real song to a real audience about a fictional universe. thats a kid that had to do schoolwork on set and fell asleep in the greenroom and missed his parents and rehearsed an awkward little speech at the end of the performance. that is not 'ciel' the amorphous blob of eyes and bows, that was a real fucking child.

if anyones asks, if there was a season 2 musical, I would be JUST AS insistent that people leave whatever poor soul they force to play alois ALONE. thats why its important to cast adults, even as child characters, to protect them from people like that!! at least the later musicals did that. but it's ridiculous that that's even a protective measure, when these are at the end of the day children's stories

I can't make anyone stop anything, but I can say that's really weird and not cool at all. stop desensitizing yourselves to the point where that's a reasonable conclusion

[mywitchcultblr]

🚨 Scam alert 🚨

The antis vs pro ship bullshit is going too far with NOW SOMEONE TRIED TO SCAM PEOPLE just to own proship or whatever and prove a point

Listen... You are taking this god damn bullshit too damn far! Why are you literally going to commit fraud over shipping and discourse?! Forget about pros vs antis whatever, you are planning to commit fraud and taking random people's money wtf

Also that person have Tumblr account as well and she seemed to be friends with a serial harasser: aster-disasters who trolling and harassing on pro ao3 post or whatever i remember someone sending me DM about it but i don't remember details because it happened some time ago... Holy fuck...

Imagine you plan to do fake commission or whatever, taking people's money + lying about your situation because you are so deep in online BS... Oh my fuckin' god some gen z are fucked beyond help...

Don't commit fraud over shipcourse!

Look if anyone with those account names babykn1fe or slime whatever asking for donation/offering commission project. Don't trust! 🚨

That person is on TikTok as well with the same name as Tumblr

Edit: Correcting pronouns + Wtf that twitter account saying "Good luck, have fun!!" To someone who's going to scam people online out of their money

It's like saying to Bernie Madoff:

"Oh! Bernie! You wanted to steal 70 billion dollars from people? Good luck! Have fun old boy!"

[oneangstymotherfucker]

Tw for vague csa/abuse mention

Sometimes, yeah, I "get off to" the fics I write. And I definately like hearing that other people enjoy them, because I think everyone deserves things they enjoy and it truly makes me happy to provide a little of that for others.

But the reason I write what I write is so my brain has a place to spin out scenarios to try to make it okay. And by that I don't mean the things that happened to me. By that I mean the fact that I exist as someone who those things happened to. The fact that I live every day with the rammifications of one man's evil decision, wrapping themselves up and weaving themselves into every aspect of my life. And when I write I come at it from all angles- including sexual because I was a prematurely-sexually-awakened kid and that can make a person's relationship with sex a little confusing to say the least- to try to figure out how to live with it.

Fic writers don't write to normalize abuse. We write to normalize suvival. And survival isn't always pure and pretty and fluffy. I was not healed by a wholesome loving relationship, I was not healed by friendship or forgiveness or by trying to banish all darkness from my life and mind. I am healing myself by looking it in the eye. By getting elbows-deep in the darkness, letting it coat my skin again now that I am grown and safe. By forgiving myself for the tracks it left in my mind and body, accepting that it is part of my story and trusting myself to keep me safe.

That's what I'm trying to normalize. That it's good you survived, and it's okay to be "messed up by it". You are normal, and your existence isn't bad or tainted or dirty or wrong. You are good and innocent. You deserve to be here and you deserve a full, satisfying life with all the things you enjoy in it.

[ninja-confession-go]

In my opinion, Skylor and Kai should not be together.

Not only does it seem like the show is kinda forcing it at this point but they don’t necessarily seem to care about their own relationships.

And what I mean is both Kai and Skylor seem so focused on everything else that they practically ghost each other on the fly. In the whole entirety of DR, Zane really does miss PIXAL and expresses it, but Kai doesn’t seem to express missing Skylor at all?

Same with Skylor, though we don’t see her much in screen, we only get to see her in context that she’s ‘a friend of the ninja’ or ‘A support for the ninja in case almost half the ninja are incapacitated’ and sure I love that she is someone outside her relationship with Kai but it doesn’t seem like she IS in a relationship with Kai.

We get much context in the books but in the show??? Seems a little lacking. Especially since DR canonically takes place after Quest of the Lost Powers where Kai and Skylor are canonically boyfriend and girlfriend.

.

[galedekarios]

it’s been a day and i still can’t believe there are ppl out there who believe that gale‘s narrative arc is about learning to communicate better