#but in fairness neither does mxtx

[whetstonefires]

to continue my tradition of mdzs height posting, another character besides mo xuanyu who is routinely and unjustly described as tiny: Wen Qing.

according to the officially released heights, she and jin guangyao are roughly the same size. about five and a half feet tall.

which is on the small side for a man even in china, though not in medieval china, and is ofc loads smaller than the ridiculous giants making up most of the cultivator elite, but is not actually a small person.

that's statistically above average for a woman even in the modern US; in modern china it is often hard for women that height to find off-the-rack clothes. in a historical chinese setting she is mildly gargantuan. five foot six is a positively unmaidenly height.

wei wuxian (as i've previously discussed) is slightly over six feet tall at his original full growth, which is stupid tall even when you're an aristocrat who didn't starve as a child. wen qing is, in turn, too tall for wei wuxian to hook his chin over her head, even if he stands on his toes, unless she ducks.

he's got maybe more than half a head on her. she could headbutt him in the nose from a standing start, as could most adult men because he's a freak.

wen qing would walk among a group of normal-in-context women like a turkey among hens. she is not tiny.

i know cql kind of made her look that way, but in fairness their version of lan wangji is a stick of no great height also. and even on cql she's not particularly small, just exceedingly pale and slim with big eyes. i truly do not know why it's so popular to conceptualize her as teeny-tiny, except maybe for the contrast value. it's not even hornyposting.

[bloopitynoot]

Reading SVSSS: Chapter 14

For those who don't know, I am reading SVSSS for the first time and sharing my thoughts!

If you have not read it, there will be spoilers! Consider this a warning.

Also- if you want to follow along, I am aiming to post updates daily. You can find all the posts in the tag bloopitynoot reads SVSSS. You can also check out the intro post for context on my read.

New book new book! Can you believe I am on book three already? Holy heck, time has flown by.

I thought I would switch up my tea process today with a new cup but also I wanted to show off my collection XD We bought some new and some refill teas from the ren faire yesterday (one of our favourite localish tea blenders) and what a collection my partner and I have amassed. I didn't realize how huge it was until I snapped the pic- it feels very at home apothecary LOL

I went with a lady grey latte and instead of my heart mug I was feeling the spooky vibes and and using my mug by Jaxx b. I have a few other handmade mugs I might start featuring because they are fun as heck!

I've rambled enough about my tea and mug let's get into this chapter!

okay right away bless MXTX for doing such a good job immediately place setting. We are in the demon realms! p9

oof. the energy between Luo BInghe and Shen Qingqiu is so uncomfortable right now. Neither of them saying anything. I am intrigued to see how they sort through this. I know they are end game but like- this is so awkward. p9

oh gosh. Luo Binghe 10000% modeled the room he is basically locking SQQ in after the Bamboo House. Yes SQQ, there most definitely is meaning in it being familiar. p10

So. LOL SQQ's rationale. Instead of "looking too much like a respectable woman kidnapped by a ruffian" p. 10 is to essentially play gay chicken?

RIP well, luo binghe did find out about the blood. so sexually charged though in the way he decided to find out. p11

How is Luo Binghe even surprised that after SQQ being treated this way that he requests that Luo Binghe never see him/see him as little as possible? What did he even expect would happen here?? p12 There is a lot of trust broken between these two.

oh? System feature upgrade? p13

LOL "luxury edition" p14 There must be fanfics about SQQ kept trophy husband

omg what kind of novels was SQQ's sister reading XD those are some wild fantasies. pp14-15

SQQ: "I will not have stockholm syndrome" okay buddy, we will see what happens with your 'luxury edition' p15

oh luo binghe, that sweet baby boy is having them plant bamboo and is cooking SQQ's meals.p16 this would be even cuter if they talked about things instead of having such a weird dynamic.

Jesus Christ. Shang Qinghua enters again. How does this man stealth so well when he is kind of an idiot? I feel like terrible decisions and bad luck follow him everywhere- but he is just slippery enough to get away. p17

LOL SQQ: Your protagonist turned gay. Shang Qinghua: eh, it's fine as long as I'm not the love interest. sucks to be you. p18

okay but I want to know how deep the info of this world goes. Where does it pool the information to generate everything- just published content OR is it everything and anything Airplane thought about or created (ie the lost computer files about Luo Binghe's dad) p19

uuuugh not another interruption- I feel for you SQQ, I too want to know what he was going to say about your tragic backstory in the original edit. p22

Airplane really said 'no homo' "That man of yours is here. Let's do it later- wait, I mean let's chat later" p22

okay okay okay! The boys are talking for real about their mutual deception of one another. Is this the path to them figuring their shit out?? Maybe they will talk about their trust issues. p23

Okay I am with Luo Binghe on this- it did feel as though SQQ completely did a 180 on fundamental life beliefs RE: no one is inherently evil because of their race. p23. So I understand Luo Binghe here- I am glad they are talking.

OMG pp24-25

well. that escalated quickly LOL pp24-25

Luo Binghe probably "hit me harder daddy shizun" p26 +500 satisfaction points.

is Luo binghe going to assault him 😭😭😭😭 this is not it. that was not cool that entire part was so gross "If shizun see's me as no better than a beast either way, I might as well live up to expectations" p27

thank fuck all of that was interrupted, but also now i'm deeply concerned for SQQ!!!! is it the other demon blood? Is it past (young SQQ) trauma?? What's happening?? (no one actually answer this I 1000% know it will be resolved in due time, but I am having a panic about the guy).

Well that's not good at all

this was one rollercoaster of an opening act omg. Not a good time for everyone involved at the end there. I am VERY glad SQQ was not assaulted but I am SRESSED now for other reasons.

[winepresswrath]

I would argue it IS actually worse because LXC at least has LQR and maybe some elders, and also Wangxian have nothing to do with why LXC goes into seclusion. But I will admit that perhaps they could have taken a day or maybe even a long weekend first. Although I do think part of Wangxian is that they're able to get the ending they do is because neither of them have other things tying them down from the life they want and are allowed to be selfish. Sect Leader Wangji is miserable

Sect Leader Wangji is so miserable and Lan-Furen Wei Wuxian is somehow even worse off, if they get that far, which they probably do not. I think that's a pretty major theme of the book- the flip side of power is duty, and wielding power without taking that duty seriously makes you an asshole even though much of that power is inherited and unasked for. Wangji and first life Huaisang, as much loved second sons, are occupying the absolute best position on the power-privilege continuum until Wei Wuxian shows up and blasts the whole thing open with "scandalous yet spoiled spouse of an adored second son who exceeds expectations simply by refraining from mass murder."

I guess I feel like Xichen is at least as bad because of the ongoing relationship he has with Wangji. Jiang Cheng and Yunmeng Jiang are in a worse place, but they are also not Wangxian's problem if they don't want them to be. To be clear, I think Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng (at least in any version of the story I'm invested in) care tremendously about each other and always will, but I do not think that by the end of the story they're obligated to. That could change in the future, depending on what kind of relationship they develop, but somewhere in between the murder of their brother-in-law and their sister being hit by a zombie and the stabbing or sieging (not to mention the thing with the dog) they are both entitled to simply scream fuck you in the most hurtful terms possible and walk into the sunset if that is what they so desire. The fact that Jiang Cheng will never in any universe desire this tugs miserably on my heartstrings but he does his own fair share of being a dick and contributing to the breakdown of their life partnership.

Meanwhile, you can say whatever you want about Xichen and the incident where his little brother got beaten half to death but he does consistently prioritize Wangji and his feelings! Said little brother is also presumably paying for all that sugar daddying he's doing for the Yiling Patriarch with the Gusu Lan corporate card. Lan Wangji has a job, and also a relationship of ongoing mutual reliance and support. "There was nothing they could do for each other now" is I think a genuine attempt on MXTX's part to make it not a dick move because it's a romance novel and they've earned their bone down, but it still reads to me like the kind of thing people tell themselves when they're about to go full hoes before bros because their empathy and good judgement have been short circuited by how badly they want to fuck. I guess Wangji is also worried that Lan Qiren will straight up lock him up again, but he could have tried.

[faelicy]

Miss Faelicy I would love to get your opinion on Bingqiu.

I see people posting things like how they are "problematic" and how they don't really love each other and SQQ only feels sympathy etc. Obviously there were struggles between them as there should be (considering all that happened) and just because sqq wasn't very open and super obvious about his feelings doesn't mean they are not there..this is how I interpreted it. I would love to know your opinion

Hello! This also covers part 2 of the previous ask.

First, massive spoilers for the end of the novel. Second, a disclaimer: I despise shipwars, which I think are behind most of those comments. I hate them because it's usually all in bad faith: everyone's already committed to their interpretation of the ships, and any discussion is just a guise for justifying their preferences.

So to any readers: I don't want anything here to be used as shipwar fuel. This post is about Bingqiu's canon arc and themes. Basically, I don't know or care if Bingqiu is a good ship, but I do think it's a well-written one.

I'll start by saying directly: for most of the novel, Bingqiu is neither healthy nor romantic. And that this is not bad writing, but on purpose.

A relationship that drives one party to mental breakdown isn't healthy. A relationship where that party says it's okay to hurt or kill them can't possibly be healthy. That happened because there was something deeply wrong with their relationship, something that can't be reduced to Xin Mo, miscommunication, or LBH throwing a tropey yandere fit.

And out of all three MXTX novels, only SV lacks a love confession from the MC to the ML. Again, I don't think it's an oversight, or just because SQQ's face is too thin. There are plenty of ways MXTX could have worked a subtle one in if she really wanted to.

In my opinion, Bingqiu's narrative can be split up into four arcs: Qing Jing Peak (ch 1-27), Jin Lan City (28-43), Post-revival (29-55), and Reconciliation (56-81). Other than the first arc, where their relationship is pretty straightforward, Bingqiu spend most of the rest in direct conflict.

I'll give an overview of the arcs here, but what I truly want to say about Bingqiu starts in arc 4, so if you're impatient you can scroll down. But the overview might help add context.

Jin Lan City arc is about LBH's anger at being brutally betrayed by the one person he thought he could trust. Here he tries to force answers out of SQQ, who he believes both hates him and is a hypocrite. He's driven by a desire to return to the past, but his rage and love makes his actions contradictory: on one hand he tries to win SQQ's approval constructively, by climbing to the top of Huan Hua Palace and performing good deeds, on the other hand his belief that SQQ doesn't care about him so it's all futile anyway (reinforced by SQQ's own actions) causes him to lash out destructively, going as far as to hurt and imprison SQQ.

LBH's bitterness is portrayed very negatively, because all it does is instill despair into SQQ, until SQQ ends up believing that he's only been a blight on LBH's life, and that he must make up for it by killing himself. Whereupon LBH breaks down, regressing into a childlike state. Some might ask, why does LBH never bring up the Abyss again afterwards? It's because he gives up here. This entire arc is about getting LBH to let go of past wrongs and to stop seeking answers, whether the reader believes it's fair to him or not. Because SQQ's life is more important.

Post-revival arc then is about SQQ trying to come to terms with a blackened LBH who also loves him. Interestingly, despite SQQ's horror at realizing LBH was romantically interested in him all along, SQQ actually has a very subtle but telling secondary reaction. To explain, let's back up to the first arc.

Starting around ch 9, probably as a sign of his growing affection, SQQ begins addressing LBH as 这孩子, or "this child," in his internal monologue, instead of LBH's name. He does it once each in ch 9, 12, 17, 21, 25. However, once Jin Lan City arc starts, SQQ drops the address entirely. LBH and "child" are never brought up together except for one snarky comment on LBH's tantrum being disgracefully childish in ch 38.

At first glance this doesn't look noteworthy because LBH by this point is no longer a kid. But when LBH kisses him in ch 49, SQQ changes again: right away he returns to using "child" on LBH, and the "this child" address starts popping up at a much higher frequency. By the end of SV SQQ has referred to LBH as a child in some manner at least 35 times (yes I went and counted), with the vast majority after ch 49, and he continues to do so right into the last extra.

Why was SQQ unwilling to use this address of affection for over 20 chapters? Perhaps because he too thought LBH hated him, and couldn't bear to think about him so intimately knowing that. So SQQ immediately falling back into it the moment he learns LBH loves him is a sign of his relief. He's still dismayed at the romantic part, but though SQQ likes to deflect from his real emotions (this is the guy who focused on bad naming sense after being fatally poisoned, who cavalierly commented only after it was all over that he'd expected to die), the fact that LBH loves and doesn't hate him, means a lot.

Here SQQ's feelings towards LBH are at their most complicated. He still assumes the worst of him like in Jin Lan City, but now because of the above, also sees a lonely child whenever LBH is unhappy and lost. It's like he has two filters actively interfering with each other, "crazed criminal" and "pitiful child," and so he flip-flops between pushing LBH away and comforting him. But when LBH drags CQMS into it, and even seemingly takes advantage of SQQ's love for him, SQQ's negative image and frustration with him only grows, until he finally snaps and tells LBH to never come near him again.

At this point SQQ still believes that LBH is the same black-hearted, invincible, devil incarnate that og!LBH was portrayed to be. The Reconciliation arc starts by chipping away at this filter that's been plaguing SQQ for so long. First the revelation that TLJ/ZZL was behind the sowers, thus clearing LBH's name at Jin Lan City. Then we see how unloved he is by his own father; we see him injured and helpless and unconscious. Meng Mo yells at SQQ, reinforcing that image of a vulnerable, terrified child. So by ch 62 SQQ has thrown away the "crazed criminal" filter completely, and in that same chapter they cling to each other and finally make up. Because while it's true that the current LBH is misanthropic, antisocial, and mercurial, SQQ has also finally accepted that he's still the same LBH he'd raised and doted on, back on Qing Jing Peak.

Now I'm going to talk about what I see as the most important part of Bingqiu. Yes, despite the wall of text already.

A common sentiment of Bingqiu shippers about their issues seems to be, "SQQ is dumb and oblivious; he can't figure out what LBH needs even though he loves him because he sees LBH as a novel character," but I think the problem is far more complicated and insidious than that. If that was everything, why give SQQ the epiphany that he misunderstood LBH so early? Why have him think in ch 66 that "truthfully, he'd never really trusted Luo Binghe, and that's why he kept accidentally hurting him?" If he's already realized that he shouldn't treat LBH like og!LBH (he even meets og!LBH in ch 71 to rub it in further), why do we go another 13 chapters believing their relationship is good and well, even giving us a sweet, happy moment in ch 75, only to show LBH having the worst breakdown of the novel just 4 chapters later? Was it all just padding to demonstrate the danger of Xin Mo?

Or is there something else beneath the surface?

In ch 66, the same chapter where SQQ implies he doesn't want to accidentally hurt LBH anymore, he says something telling. When LQG is skeptical that LBH can be trusted, SQQ thinks, 家里孩子不懂事，大人不容易做, or "when your child doesn't know any better, as the adult you don't have it easy." The child here of course refers to LBH, and the adult is SQQ, who's complaining about smoothing over LBH's messes. But what is SQQ implying here?

Doesn't know any better? That's what you say about a toddler who can't think for themselves, not a grown man. LBH is 25 and SQQ thinks he doesn't know better. Doesn't know better about what? LBH's wants, his needs? His feelings? Or even what's good for him?

And then you realize that's exactly how SQQ's always treated him, like a helpless child who can't make his own choices.

It's SQQ who chooses to throw LBH down into the Abyss without trying to talk to him. It's SQQ who decides that keeping silent is the best choice. It's SQQ who believes self-destructing in front of LBH will help, who thinks that breaking off their relationship is for the better. And it's SQQ who scolds LBH into tolerating CQMS, even though they hate each other and CQMS is hostile towards him. Who forces him to leave first at Zhao Hua Temple despite LBH's pleas otherwise, who shoos him out the window when CQMS walks in on them.

Every single one of these decisions, SQQ made believing it was for the best (repair LBH's relationship with his family, help him avoid arrest, not wanting to make excuses, wanting LBH to be free of his hatred), and every single one of them only damaged LBH further. Because SQQ's never listened to him, even once. Never consulted him or considered his feelings.

(And LBH did try to bring up his feelings on one of the matters in ch 75. He insinuates to SQQ that he doesn't like LQG calling him "little beast" or "ingrate." And SQQ's response is to dismiss them entirely, saying that LQG's "not wrong.")

SQQ has always loved LBH, but he's never once respected LBH's agency or personhood. Because LBH doesn't know better and SQQ does, so SQQ must make all his decisions for him.

And this, amplified by Xin Mo, is what finally drives LBH mad in ch 79.

To LBH, the important part isn't whether SQQ loves him, which I think he knew after ch 43 (it's why he can be so daring and pushy with SQQ's boundaries). What's important is that the moment SQQ believes abandoning LBH is justified for whatever reason again, SQQ absolutely will.

Ch 80's two-way noncon (since LBH was basically unconscious and couldn't consent) tends to draw most of the attention, but I actually think that what happens afterwards is one of the most important scenes for Bingqiu. There SQQ tries to sacrifice himself a second time for LBH, drawing Xin Mo's demonic qi into his body. Yet the novel claims that SQQ's actions here are completely different than in ch 43. SQQ himself says that this time he's doing it for LBH, while last time he was doing it for himself. But can the reader see a functional difference?

There is one, in fact: it's SQQ's response to LBH's choice afterwards. LBH decides to follow SQQ in death, even though this would void the point of SQQ's sacrifice. But instead of insisting otherwise, SQQ just accepts it. Because he finally understands that whether LBH's life is worth living, whether LBH will be better off, is for LBH and only LBH to decide.

It's the first time he respects LBH's agency. And this is the only reason why he and LBH can finally begin building a healthy relationship on the mess they've had up to now.

So that's what I see as the true beauty behind Bingqiu. It's about communication and mistaken assumptions, yes, but it's also about the nature of love between parent and child. The romantic developments were left to the extras, I believe, because this was the main story MXTX wanted to tell with them. Their relationship as lovers only starts afterwards, hence why SV ends with, "the story between you and I, has only just begun." It was never meant to be a whirlwind romance where they fall in love cleanly. It might not to be to everyone's tastes, but an incredible amount of thought was put into the narrative, and that's what amazed me when I first finished this novel.

(This post went on way too long and I ended up cutting off a huge chunk of tangential stuff and how SQQ came to his realization in ch 79: he didn't do it alone. It took him seeing the LBH in TLJ and the himself in YQY for him to understand. In fact, YQY and og!SQQ's relationship has a similar parent-and-child dynamic. I've touched on it before on twitter; if there's interest I might try writing that up here too.)

[crossdressingdeath]

I think what I love the most about wangxian is that they don't play into MXTX's "head empty, only love interest" gong and "has all the morals in the relationship" shou. Also they're kinky!! It's not just the shou accepting his pervy gong! WWX is as kinky as LWJ! Or more!! Feels ~natural~ somehow... they're the perfect match...

Yeah, Wangxian really is my favourite MXTX ship for that exact reason. Like, LBH and HC are fine, but they have... pretty much zero interests outside of their love interest. Everything revolves around SQQ/XL. And honestly that just sounds exhausting, I'm not going to lie. Imagine having a romantic partner who has no life outside of you. The fact that LWJ does have that intense moral dilemma between his love for WWX and what he at the time thinks is right is just so much more powerful than anything I remember from the other two novels. And yeah, from what I remember (which to be fair isn't much) neither SQQ nor XL are anywhere near as down for the kinky shit as WWX is; they're fine with it, but I don't get the impression it's something they would've particularly wanted if their partner wasn't super down for it. Which, to be clear, isn't necessarily a problem on its own, like I said from what I remember they weren't unhappy about it, it just wasn't a big Thing for them, but I like my kink aggressively mutual so they don't really work for me.

Basically at the end of the day there are aspects in the relationships in MXTX's other two books that make me personally really uncomfortable looking back on them because of how they seem more like obsession on one side and on the other vague tolerance and the risk that the world will end if he says no in one case and... well, I don't really remember what XL's deal was, but I remember not finding it anywhere near as romantic as the rest of the fandom did and there were several points where I was basically yelling "LEARN WHAT HEALTHY BOUNDARIES ARE MY DUDE FIND SOMEONE WHO ISN'T SO DAMN CREEPY IN HIS AFFECTIONS" at him. Wangxian, though... good shit.

[ouyangzizhensdad]

Honestly i might get some hate for this, but I can’t get into tgcf like i did with both mdzs and svsss. Tgcf just feels too slow and long for me. Even though mdzs was the first chinese novel ive ever read, and it confused the crap out of me with all these things like everyone having 3 names, etc., the story still pulled me in. It was interesting, it was compelling, it was intriguing. Svsss pulled me in because it’s my type of dumb humor and it had me laughing from the get go. But tgcf, it’s cute and seems interesting but holy crap does it feel like it goes on for forever.

Hi anon,

Tbh I did not have the same issues even if I think there is space for improvement wrt he pacing/time spent on certain portions of the story. It seems also that it might also just be a case of tgcf being less the type of story that appeals to you personally vs mdzs or svsss, which is fair enough.

That being said, I do think it shows that, unlike mdzs, the "official" version of tgcf is still based on the serialisation. In the postscript mxtx is very open about the fact that she intended to edit it (though in some ways it seems she might want to make it even longer ����):

Unfortunately, in the years since, mxtx has neither posted her fourth novel nor the edited version of tgcf. Increasingly, it seems highly possible that we will never get to read this edited version (though, who knows!) But I often wonder how this edited version would compare to the existing version of the story.

[esmeraldablazingsky]

I’ve finally hit my limit on the number of bad takes on the Lan parents I can see before I have to lay out all the reasons I disagree, so hello, I’m Blazie, and in this essay I will justify my visceral dislike of the assumption that Qingheng-jun married/imprisoned/had sex with Lan-furen against her will.

    Warning for mentions of rape (in context of Interpretations I Really Hate) and a very, VERY long post below the cut.

    Before I start going off about the finer points of all this, I want to make sure people are on the same page regarding what we actually know about what went down with Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen. What I say is based off the EXR translation of MDZS, for the sake of clarity, and although I don’t think the exact wording should be too important, feel free to let me know if you think I’ve missed an important bit of nuance or something (the whole story is in Chapter 64.)

    The story we get is told by Lan Xichen, and it goes like this: a young Qingheng-jun falls in love at first sight with Lan-furen, who doesn’t return his feelings, and at some point kills one of Qingheng-jun’s teachers over unspecified “grievances.” Although he’s understandably very upset over the murder, Qingheng-jun sneaks Lan-furen back to Cloud Recesses and officially marries her in order to announce to his clan that anyone who wants to hurt her has to go through him.

After that, he locks Lan-furen in one house and himself in another as a form of repentance. Wei Wuxian speculates that this was because “he could neither forgive the one who killed his teacher nor watch the death of the woman who he loved. He could only marry her to protect her life and force himself not to see her.” 

    A central detail of this story that I think people don’t give the import it deserves is that aside from marrying and protecting her, Qingheng-jun’s other option was to let Lan-furen be executed by his clan. His purpose in marrying her wasn’t just for kicks/out of a possessive sort of love, it was so she wouldn’t straight up die. How she felt about this arrangement isn’t stated, but I’ll get into that in a bit. In addition to that, Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen live separately, which was apparently purposeful on Qingheng-jun’s part, and runs counter to the interpretation that he intended to take sexual advantage of Lan-furen.

Though there aren’t many concrete details in Lan Xichen’s retelling, he does specifically inform Wei Wuxian that his mother never complained about remaining in her house. What exactly this signifies is unclear— whether she was simply putting on a brave face for her sons, or whether she was in fact at all content with the situation— but it at the very least serves to further muddy the waters on how she and Qingheng-jun felt about all this. 

Beyond what Lan Xichen and Wei Wuxian are saying out loud, there’s also quite a bit of subtext in this scene, especially in light of later events and revelations, like Lan Xichen’s confession for Lan Wangji at Guanyin Temple. 

So what is Lan Xichen trying to convey with all this? There’s a lot of memes about this scene, most of which err too far on the side of Himbo Airhead Lan Xichen for my liking, but one that I do find amusing emphasizes how Lan Xichen draws parallels between Wangxian and the story of his parents (Lan Xichen: [flute solo] please use your one brain cell to connect the dots.) If Wei Wuxian hadn’t completely lost his memory of Lan Wangji defending him against his own clan elders, one would assume that Lan Xichen’s story would have had a much better chance of hitting home. 

In hindsight and side by side, the parallels are much clearer— Qingheng-jun, “ignoring the objections from his clan… told everyone in the clan that she would be his wife for the rest of his life, that whoever wanted to harm her would have to pass through him first.” Similarly, according to Lan Xichen in Chapter 99, “for [Wei Wuxian,] not only did WangJi talk back to him, he even met with his sword the cultivators from the GusuLan Sect. He heavily injured all thirty-three of the seniors we asked to come.”

In that context, it makes a lot less sense to interpret Qingheng-jun as an aggressor towards Lan-furen, as in Lan Wangji’s case, the narrative clearly establishes that his actions are to secure Wei Wuxian’s safety. The action of Taking Someone Back To Cloud Recesses is— okay, actually, it’s a little more nuanced than I took into account when I started writing that sentence, so let me go a little deeper into Lan Wangji’s actions and how they relate to his father’s, story-wise. 

My intent is not to dive into the terrifying underworld of novel-versus-drama discourse, but simply put, Novel!Lan Wangji as he is written isn’t exactly the poster child for clear consent. (I’m going to entirely leave off the extra chapters for the sake of everyone’s sanity, so I’m just talking about the main body of the novel here.)

He means well, and I’m sure we can agree that he does actually love and want the best for Wei Wuxian, but his lack of communication on this point means that he accidentally gives Wei Wuxian the impression that he wants to imprison and/or punish him in Cloud Recesses at least twice off the top of my head (pre-timeskip, as we know, and post-timeskip immediately after Dafan Mountain when he actually drags Wei Wuxian back to his room.) 

That all likely has something to do with MXTX’s narrative kinks and regular kinks and all that, and can absolutely be taken with many grains of salt. However, these events establish how easy it is to misinterpret the action of Taking Someone Back To Gusu as an attempt to imprison rather than protect them (much to Lan Wangji’s chagrin.)

Failing to communicate his purpose to Wei Wuxian doesn’t mean that Lan Wangji actually had any intent of hurting or caging him— that was just a misinterpretation on Wei Wuxian’s part, and we, as the audience, find that out in due time— but as written in the novel, it can be really uncomfortable to read. Because of that, many people choose to accept CQL canon regarding Lan Wangji’s more possessive actions or mix characterization from different adaptations, which, to be clear, I completely understand and respect. 

However, Qingheng-jun doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt as often, which I frankly find baffling, because nowhere in the text does it state that Lan-furen objected to being taken back to Cloud Recesses, while even Wei Wuxian clearly objected the first few times. In fact, while we’re on this note, I’ll take it a step farther— I find it baffling that people seem to default to an unsympathetic view of Qingheng-jun, because nowhere in the text does it state that he overruled Lan-furen’s wishes in any way. The text doesn’t clarify a lot of things, actually, and that is part of the point. 

The narrators of MDZS are, in many situations, highly unreliable. This is, presumably, very purposeful! MDZS can easily be read as a sharp criticism of reputation and mass judgment and the concept of condemning people without knowing their motives! And I don’t want to sound mean, but guys… did any of us learn anything from that? Here, I’m going to put it in meme format for a second to convey what I mean. 

MDZS: It’s easy to condemn someone as a villain if you don’t know their story or the reasons behind their actions

MDZS: Anyway, here’s a character whose story and reasons behind his actions you know nothing about

Some Parts Of This Fandom: Ah, a villain 

    Memes aside, here’s what I want to point out. It’s entirely possible to assume Qingheng-jun was a bad person who disregarded a woman’s wishes in marrying and confining her when all you have is Lan Xichen’s (actually very neutral, thank you Lan Xichen for being an eminently reasonable and concerned-with-evidence character) account of what happened. It would also be at least that easy to assume Wei Wuxian was just an evil necromancer if he hadn’t un-died and brought his own story to light, or even to believe that Lan Wangji had somehow tamed Wei Wuxian into submission and being a respectable cultivator if you were an average citizen of Fantasy Ancient China with nothing but rumors to operate on. 

    The thing about Qingheng-jun and Lan-furen’s story, then, is that there is nobody left alive who knows the full tale. Nobody knows what they thought about anything, really. Nobody even knows why Lan-furen killed Qingheng-jun’s teacher. Wei Wuxian asks why, and Lan Xichen can’t tell him, but I think the best answer would be something along the lines of I don’t know, Wei Wuxian, why did you kill people? Your guess on the motivations of your own thinly disguised narrative parallel are as good as anyone’s. 

    So, while it’s not technically impossible to assign darker motives to Qingheng-jun, the cautionary tale of MDZS seems to warn against that exact assumption. 

    I’ve refrained from getting too salty on a personal level thus far, but now that I’ve said a lot of the more logical and story-based points of my argument, I will say that at least some of my annoyance with the interpretation of Qingheng-jun as a possessive rapist and Lan-furen as his victim stems from the fact that I just think it’s straight up boring. Where’s the nuance? Aren’t you tired of reducing these characters to the flattest possible versions of themselves? Don’t you just want to add a little flavor? 

    In a slightly more serious phrasing of that criticism, I find that making Lan-furen a helpless prisoner strips her of whatever agency she might otherwise have. To be fair, she’s more or less a non-character in keeping with the general state of the MDZS universe, but making her a damsel in distress only consigns her more deeply to hapless, milquetoast innocence. 

    It’s perfectly valid to enjoy ladies who have done nothing wrong, ever, in their lives, but like… Qin Su is right there, if that’s your ball game. There’s also really no need to make Qingheng-jun someone who doesn’t respect women. Isn’t Jin Guangshan enough for at least one universe? 

    Anyway, ultimately, you do you. I don’t like arguing on the internet, and will just ignore things I don’t agree with (or write an 1800 word vaguepost) like a mature human being. I’m just saying, if it’s a cut and dry tale of imprisonment and assault you’re looking for… you probably don’t want to turn to a woman who committed a murder and a man who loved her enough to forfeit everything to keep her safe. 

[hamliet]

MXTX Ladies Week: MDZS

I did Scum Villain’s awesome female cast last night, and now it is time for my favorite of MXTX’s novels, Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation. 

In MDZS, my main critique is that, while all of the female characters do get fantastic arcs, the vast majority of them die (though, granted, their deaths aren’t usually done just for the male characters’ sadness, but often do make sense for their own arcs. So that’s. Something. Still grumbly about it though). “The woman dies” is a similar trope to “bury your gays” and it’s... tiring. That said, I did find all the characters’ arcs incredibly well done. No one is fanservice; they are all complex and human.

I want to talk about the characters whom I haven’t talked about as much before, so that means less on SiSi and MianMian, as well as less on Madame Lan. See here for my meta on SiSi and MianMian, as well as here for my meta on Madame Lan. Throughout all of their arcs, there’s a common thread about calling out sexism. MianMian calls it out directly:

The person replied, “You’re...calling white black no matter how irrational it is. Ha, women will always be women.”

MianMian fumed, “Irrational? Calling white black? I’m just being considerate it as it stands. What does it have to do with the fact that I’m a woman? You can’t be rational with me so you’re attacking me with other things?”...

Holding in her tears, she shouted a moment later, “Fine! Your voices are louder! Fine! You’re the rational ones!”

She clenched her teeth and took off the crested robe she wore with force, slamming it onto the table with a loud bang. Even the sect leaders in the front rows, who weren’t paying attention to this side, turned around to see what happened. The ones beside her were indeed surprised. What she did meant that she was ‘leaving the sect’?

Soon, some began to agree, “Women will always be women. They quit just after you say a few harsh words. She’ll definitely come back on her own, a couple of days later.”

“There’s no doubt. After all, she finally managed to turn from the daughter of a servant to a disciple, haha…”

MianMian is looked down upon by the social hierarchy for being a woman and for being the daughter of a servant. Her lack of power against a sexist world is eventually countered by the fact that she’s one of the women who survive the novel, with a husband who follows her in night-hunting. As I said in my past meta, she steps outside a corrupt society.

Mistreated Wives Mistreating Children: Madame Jin and Madame Yu

Madame Yu is probably one of the most complex characters in the entire novel, which says a lot since she’s a minor character. But she and Madame Jin are said to be best friends who arrange the marriage of their children, and the two women are also foils. 

Both of them are mistreated by their husbands in a sense. Madame Jin has to deal with Jin GuangShan sleeping around and impregnating numerous other women, while Yu ZiYuan has to deal with the fact that Jiang FengMian clearly was in love with CanSe SanRen, not with her, and brought back CangSe SanRen’s child after Wei WuXian was orphaned. To be completely fair, Madame Yu’s dislike of and lack of respect for her husband is completely valid over this. However, what isn’t valid is her taking it out on all three of the kids at Lotus Pier. She abuses Wei WuXian and mentally abuses Jiang Cheng as well, and isn’t exactly awesome towards Jiang YanLi either. She constantly reminds Jiang Cheng that he can’t live up to Wei WuXian (projecting her own bitterness at not being enough to be loved like CangSe SanRen in her husband’s eyes), whom she despises for whom his mother was, and thereby exacerbates Jiang Cheng’s already deep insecurity issues (granted Jiang FengMian is responsible for this as well). But, she ultimately dies to save both Jiang Cheng and Wei WuXian, refusing to cut off his hand when she knows he is innocent. It doesn’t erase how she treated them while they lived, but it does add a level of complexity and tragedy: she knew Wei WuXian was powerless in these circumstances, as she had always felt, and she saves the kids before dying to defend Lotus Pier--with her husband, whom, it’s implied, did care about her but sucked at showing it. Almost like that’s a Jiang family trait.

Madame Jin is no better towards Jin GuangYao when he shows up. She did not object towards a child being kicked down the stairs on the basis of something he could not help, and Lan XiChen notes that she has him beaten regularly after he is accepted in the Jinlintai. Yes, she told off her husband for his arrogance, but she was trapped in her marriage with him and projected her pain onto someone who was not responsible for it (regardless of what Jin GuangYao did, she was abusing him). 

The point of both women isn’t that they’re horrible or that one is redeemed; it’s once again calling out the double standards and corrupt power structures at play. Jin GuangYao and Madame Jin are actually foils in that both abuse the power they have to target children who can’t help who their parents are (A-Song), because neither of them are able to truly demand justice from the person who is actually responsible: Jin GuangShan. 

The Bad Girls: Meng Shi, CangSe SanRen, and Madame Lan 

Or the women whom no one cared about enough to hear their stories. Madame Lan was a murderer and a parallel to Jin GuangYao and Wei WuXian as a result; the only way to save her life was to marry Lan WangJi and XiChen’s father. She’s noted to have been playful and fun, but she was only allowed to see her sons once a month, and she was confined her entire life, which is basically symbolic of how the cultivational society treats people: it traps them and isolates them.

CangSe SanRen is not described in much detail besides that, like Xiao XingChen, she left BaoShan SanRen to join cultivational society. Yet she still continued to flout its rules--cutting off Lan QiRen’s beard and marrying a servant instead of marrying a sect leader and gaining power. Rumors about her--that she had an affair with Jiang FengMian despite no evidence--and that she flouted society are then projected onto her son (symbolic of society’s unwillingness to change its corruption and power system)...

...which is just like how Meng Shi’s having been a prostitute is projected onto Jin GuangYao. People won’t even accept tea from him, believing his skin dirty on the basis of whom his mother was. However, everything we know about Meng Shi suggests she cared deeply for her son and chose to have him despite knowing what it would do to her popularity as a prostitute. Even when the other prostitutes comment about how she was a fool who kept hoping he would return, she still cared for her son and he repaid her by carving her face into the GuanYin temple’s idol. Jin GuangYao also expressly says that his father “wouldn’t buy [her] freedom,” implying that she did not have much of a choice about her lifestyle. Good job, society. Not. 

The Mean Girl: JiaoJiao

Okay, she’s kind of loathsome in personalty, petty and cruel and having an affair with an even crueler prince. Yet in a story that comments so much on privilege, it’s hard not to see her as a victim of circumstance as well; however, her proximity with the (then) pinnacle of corruption in Wen Chao and Wen RouHan means that she too misuses her power once she has it. She hurts innocents in Lotus Pier, she tries to kill MianMian just for being pretty, etc.

However, keep in mind that JiaoJiao’s prettiness is said to be what attracted Wen Chao to her, and it’s said that her family then received favors, such as the creating of their own sect. Her name is also noted by translators to be comparatively unsophisticated, implying that she likely came from a family that wasn’t exactly high up in society. None of this excuses her, but what exactly makes her fear of someone else being prettier than her and thus losing all the power she has (which she knew would happen eventually), and potentially her family suffering for it as well, all that much different than Jiang Cheng’s bitterness towards people more powerful in cultivation than him? Jiang Cheng had ShiJie and Wei WuXian and others to show him love and help him not become as cruel of a person (until she dies and then he does, indeed, torture people), but we know nothing about whether JiaoJiao had that. 

Desperate people cling to what they have. JiaoJiao, Wei WuXian, Jin GuangYao, and Jiang Cheng all show us this. It doesn’t excuse them, but neither does it mean they’re demons. 

Integrity and the Limits of Sacrifice: Wen Qing and Jiang YanLi 

Jiang YanLi and Wen Qing are in many ways the opposite of JiaoJiao: both are brave, kind women, and wonderful older sisters, even if Jiang YanLi is unassuming and Wen Qing bold. Both are inhibited by their power, though: Jiang YanLi’s talents are not cultivational in nature, and Wen Qing may be talented and brilliant as a doctor, but she is limited by her role all the same:

Lan XiChen responded a moment later, “I have heard of Wen Qing’s name a few of times. I do not remember her having participated in any of the Sunshot Campaign’s crimes.”

Nie MingJue, “But she’s never stopped them either.”

Lan XiChen, “Wen Qing was one of Wen RuoHan’s most trusted people. How could she have stopped them?”

Nie MingJue spoke coldly, “If she responded with only silence and not opposition when the Wen Sect was causing mayhem, it’s the same as indifference. She shouldn’t have been so disillusioned as to hope that she could be treated with respect when the Wen Sect was doing evil and be unwilling to suffer the consequences and pay the price when the Wen Sect was wiped out.”

The thing is: she did try to stop some of them, helping Jiang Cheng and Wei WuXian, but Jiang Cheng doesn’t speak up for her. Sigh. 

Both of them are also foils in how they both ultimately sacrifice their lives to save Wei WuXian... and it turns out that their sacrifice doesn’t protect Wei WuXian. Wen Qing tells Wei WuXian the story’s catchphrase “thank you, and I’m sorry” before turning herself in for execution with her brother, but all this winds up in is the BurialMounds being seiged anyways, all her relatives except Wen Yuan being killed, and Wei WuXian still dying. Wen Ning, too, is not killed but is made a weapon. Jiang YanLi, despite Wei WuXian having led to the death of her husband, pushes him out of the way of a soldier looking to kill him, and gets killed instead. But this only results in Jiang Cheng becoming enraged and helping kill Wei WuXian, and Jin Ling being left an orphan. 

However, because MDZS has a pretty nuanced view on sacrifice, it’s neither pointless nor to be admired. Wei WuXian is both Wen Qing and Jiang YanLi’s foil in this: he, too, is self-sacrificial to a fault. The novel pretty clearly implies that self-sacrifice can be a form of self-harm, as it is for all three of them. Yet, all three of them have a defining trait of deep love that ultimately enables them to have legacies that continue: Wen Yuan, Jin Ling, even Wen Ning survive, and Wei WuXian is given a second chance at life. It’s not that their sacrifices were ultimately selfish and didn’t matter or shouldn’t have happened; it’s that, without an unjust society, they should not have had to happen. Wen Qing should not have been condemned on the basis of her name. Jiang YanLi should not have been killed because Wei WuXian should never have been seiged. And Wei WuXian should never have had to feel like he had to prove his worth (keep in mind Yu ZiYuan’s last words to him are literally that he should protect Jiang Cheng with his life). 

The Victims: Qin Su, Mo XuanYu’s Mother, and Madame Qin

In this house we stan Qin Su. 

Talk about a woman who goes after what she wants. She is said to have pursued Jin GuangYao after he saved her during the Sunshot Campaign, rather than the other way around. 

However, during the sunshot campaign, Qin Su had been saved by Jin GuangYao. She fell in love with him and never gave up, insisting that she wanted to be his wife. In the end, they finally drew the period on such a romantic story. Jin GuangYao didn’t let her down either. Even though he held the important position of Chief Cultivator, his behavior was drastically different from his father’s. He never took in any concubines, much less had a relationship with any other woman. This was indeed something that many wives of sect leaders envied.

And yet, again, because of circumstances beyond her control and because of the abuse of power, she can’t have happiness. Jin GuangShan raped her mother (seriously, he’s the very symbol of power abuse in relation to sexism in this novel), who is too ashamed to tell her husband that his best friend assaulted her. We can’t fault Madame Qin for staying silent, and with Qin Su already pregnant, it’s difficult not to empathize with Jin GuangYao for feeling trapped and marrying her anyways--though it is his fault for not telling her, and for killing their son, as Qin Su basically states that the dividing line for her is because Jin GuangYao killed A-Song, not because of their blood relation. 

After a moment of silence, Jin GuangYao answered, “I know that you won’t believe me, no matter what I say, but it was sincere, back then.”

Qin Su sobbed, “… You’re still speaking such blandishments!”

Jin GuangYao, “I’m speaking the truth. I’ve always remembered that you have never said anything about my background or my mother. I’m grateful for you until the end of my life, and I want to respect you, cherish you, love you. But, you have to know that even if A-Song hadn’t been killed, he had to die. He could only die. If we let him grow up, you and I…”

With the mention of her son, Qin Su couldn’t bear it any longer. With a raise of her hand, she slapped him on the face, “Then who’s the one that did all this?! Just what can’t you do for this position?!”

In some ways Qin Su and Madame Qin could be seen as a potential foil for Madame Jin and Madame Yu, in that they both loved children who were forced upon them, who would have been scorned in the world’s eyes, and defend their wellbeing and life. 

Mo XuanYu’s mother was sixteen when Jin GuangShan found her, and she was noted to herself be the illegitimate daughter of a servant--but her father was not scorned for this, yet she was scorned for having a son outside of wedlock.

the elder one was the daughter of his principal wife, looking for a husband to marry into the family, while the younger one was the daughter of a servant. The Mo family originally wanted to hastily give her to someone, but an adventure awaited her. When she was sixteen, the leader of a well-known cultivation family was passing by the area, and fell in love with her at first sight.

...In the beginning, the people of Mo Village regarded the topic with contempt, but because the Sect Leader* often helped out, the Mo family received plenty of advantages. And so, the direction of the discussions changed, and the Mo family took pride in the matter, while everyone else also envied the opportunity. 

She was respected only for the value she could bring a poor village. And then when Mo XuanYu was cast out of the Jin Sect, it’s noted that:

After he went back home dejectedly, he was bombarded with ridicule. The situation seemed like it was beyond redemption, and the second-lady of Mo was not able to withstand the blow, shortly choking to death because of the trauma.

Considering Mo XuanYu’s makeup is of a hanged ghost and the mention of how she died, it’s pretty likely that she hung herself. 

Mo XuanYu’s mother, just like Qin Su, commits suicide in the end to avoid a cruel society that would not respond to plights that were in no way their fault with anything but cruelty. Jin GuangYao notes that Qin Su would be the “laughingstock of the world” and soon after she grabs a dagger in which her soul would be trapped forever--a dagger originally owned by again The Symbol of Abuse of Power in Wen RouHan--and kills herself in a chamber of secrets (literally, a secret treasure vault, because she could not survive these secrets coming to light not keeping them silent). Just like Madame Qin, neither of them have anywhere to turn to for justice or for compassion. In the cultivational world, they are already disadvantaged for being women, and their tragic ends show again how disgusting the society in MDZS is. 

Hope and Bravery: A-Qing

Of course it’s not the righteous cultivator and it’s not the strongest in cultivation who is the hero who finally gets justice in Yi City. It’s the beggar girl who pretends to be blind, the thief, with no cultivation. A-Qing’s ghost may be blind and mute, but she sees and speaks more than any of them. Her empathy enables the heroes to figure out what happened in Yi City, and she is mourned and lauded for her bravery for it.

She has little power in the world, so she lies to get the money she can. But what she does have is love and loyalty that foils Lan WangJi’s (though I don’t believe in any way that it’s remotely implied this love for Xiao XingChen is romantic!) Even after Xiao XingChen’s death, even after her own physical dismemberment and death, she continues to look for justice for him, and this eventually pays off.

Further Hope: MianMian

I addressed this a bit in my meta with her, but MianMian’s happy ending comes outside of society, and includes her marrying a man who respects her autonomy and wishes:

Luo QingYang gazed at her husband, smiling, “My husband isn’t of the cultivating world. He used to be a merchant. But, he’s willing to go night-hunting with me…”

It was both rare and admirable that an ordinary person, and a man at that, would be willing to give up his originally stable life and dare travel the world with his wife, unafraid of danger and wander. Wei WuXian couldn’t help feeling respect for him.

And MianMian still has a keen observation: that society in the world hasn’t changed (which Wei WuXian will also note in the last chapter when they find a new scapegoat villain in Jin GuangYao):

Luo Qing Yang sighed, “Oh, these people…” She seemed as if she remembered something, shaking her head, “They’re the same everywhere.”

But as long as there are people willing to be empathetic, to believe in justice and be brave, who can combine these--like A-Qing, Lan WangJi, Wei WuXian, and more--there is hope for healing, even if it takes thirteen years. 

[farmerlan]

Farmer Lan’s Rewatch Guide to The Untamed - Episode 16

LET THE RAAAAAIN FALL DOWWWWN - Hilary Duff

episode masterlist here

obligatory spoiler warning

Quick recap on the drama:

- Yunmeng massacre happens, we witness the tragic deaths of Jiang Fengmian and Madam Yu (RIP)

- Jiang Cheng understandably mentally melts down and throws hands with Wei Wuxian, blaming him for his hero complex causing all of this

- The trio reunites, but just briefly, for Jiang Cheng goes missing the moment Wei Wuxian leaves to buy some medicine for Jiang Yanli. Wei Wuxian returns to the Lotus Pier, where he suspects Jiang Cheng has gone in an attempt to retrieve his parents’ corpses.

- In a series of bold moves, Wen Ning earns himself the MVP title as he runs into Wei Wuxian at the Lotus Pier (Wei Wuxian now heated and distrustful towards all Wens), spikes the party punch and sneaks Jiang Cheng out, consequences be damned.

Differences from the drama:

After Madam Yu sneaks them out, Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian paddle back (with their bare hands!) the moment Zi Dian releases its hold, only to witness the corpses lining the courtyard of their former home. At this point, Wen Ning senses their presence and turns around to investigate. They quickly duck, but Wei Wuxian catches a glimpse of his face (without knowing who he is).

They never see the corpses of Jiang Fengmian and Madam Yu when they return to Lotus Pier, they only witness the conversation between Wen Chao and Wang Lingjiao that confirms their deaths. Wei Wuxian recalls that earlier that day, Jiang Fengmian and Madam Yu had quarreled right before Jiang Fengmian had left, and he wonders if Jiang Fengmian got there on time for them to meet again for the last time, whether their last words were something besides the harsh words that were exchanged earlier that day. Novel readers never quite get the closure that the drama gives with regards to their relationship.

During Jiang Cheng’s breakdown, the novel actually states that Jiang Cheng himself knew that the fault did not lie with Wei Wuxian’s actions - that it was only a matter of time before the Wen sect found some other reason to invade the Lotus Pier. But a part of him always felt that those actions acted as a catalyst - without it, perhaps the series of events would not have developed so quickly to the point of no return. IMO this is a reasonable take and I wish we got to see this narrated in the drama. I think it gives more depth to the characters’ thoughts and motivations, although with the tight pacing it makes sense that you have to trade off some parts of the narrative. Then again, he never voices this out to Wei Wuxian (the actual breakdown scene including the dialogue closely follows the novel) because he’s an emotionally constipated idiot, so does it even really matter lol.

Jiang Yanli doesn’t show up in this entire sequence of events. In fact, they never make it to Meishan. They stopped by a small town on the way as neither of them had eaten for almost two days and were emotionally and physically exhausted from all the running. Jiang Cheng disappears when Wei Wuxian runs off to get food for the two of them. The drama foreshadows this a little by causing a commotion right as the Wen guards are about to arrest Wei Wuxian (we later learn that it was Jiang Cheng giving himself up to save Wei Wuxia from arrest), and the astute viewer might catch on and suspect something, but in the novel readers are literally led to believe for the entire story that Jiang Cheng ran his stupid ass back to the Lotus Pier deliberately, only for the revelation to hit suddenly at the end.

In the drama, I found it kind of odd that Wei Wuxian was so quick to assume the worst of Wen Ning and disregard the fact that they even had some semblance of a friendship, but I chalked it up to his trauma and to his hatred of the Wen sect overall. However, this reaction makes a lot of sense in the novel, because at this point, Wei Wuxian was not familiar with either of the Wen siblings. He had once praised and encouraged Wen Ning during an archery contest at a previous sect summit (the drama pays homage to this in Episode 4), but he did not remember this until Wen Ning brought it up. So when he first ran into Wen Ning at the Lotus Pier, it was as good as running into any random Wen disciple. This is why MXTX wrote in the scene where they were spotted by Wen Ning the night before. By reminding Wei Wuxian of their interaction at the archery contest, and the fact that he hadn’t ratted him out despite the fact that he should have, Wen Ning was able to quickly gain some amount of Wei Wuxian’s trust (to be fair he really didn’t have much of a choice at that point).

[mxtxfanatic]

I think your last paragraph really nails it, because even later when sqq is really enjoying sex and his relationship, he still doesn’t always voluntarily say it in those terms (because he likes playing hard to get). I personally don’t read him as ace simple because of how he describes the beautiful women he meets vs. the beautiful men is clearly different and reads to me like he just does not realize he’s attracted to men. But the ace reading is also fair because I don’t think any of mxtx’s main couples experience romantic or sexual attraction to anyone until they meet each other. As for sqq not realizing this for lbh until later, well, he meets lbh as a child and he is not attracted to children (and even comments on this in one of the extras).

On that note, you’re right about both of them lacking experience leading up to their first time, but I wouldn’t say either of them were expecting something like mindblowing sex going into it (except for being happy they’re with each other). Sqq knows that his lbh is not the original lbh and comments on the differences between their techniques after having kissed both. The real issue hanging over their heads is that neither of them want a repeat of the maigu ridge mess, and sqq even says that he doesn’t want to stop just cause it’s painful because he doesn’t want to traumatize them both away from sex. Then from there, it does get better because lbh is paying close attention to sqq’s tells and catches when he starts enjoying himself so that he can repeat the actions causing that pleasure. And we know lbh is a quick study of all of his shizun’s enjoyments.

Something I didn’t realize would bother me until I read the books is how much I actually dislike the whole “mxtx doesn’t know how to write sex/the sex is too unrealistic!” thing I see in both mdzs and svsss fics (and general fandom). Too many times I’ll read fics where side characters will either have to “teach” wangxian and bingqiu how to have sex or will slip them things to “help” them, the most common being lube. And I know this is a fanon thing because both books reference both characters regularly using lube (I think it’s more implied in mdzs since half the explicit sex scenes are dreams, but it’s literally mentioned in svsss) and how both couples really enjoy having sex with each other.

Shen Qingqiu’s complaints about sex with Luo Binghe are mostly around how he lacks lbh’s stamina and needs time to recover where lbh doesn’t, but he explicitly states that he likes to play hard-to-get and that it’s not a rejection of lbh or sex. I’d say even his complaints about how big lbh is fall into that category as well. In the questionnaire extra, lbh even says that sqq is required to tell him if something is wrong when they have sex, no exception. Wangxian have a similar communication policy but with the added benefit of the incense burner extras that let us see that they get to explore their sexual fantasies in dreams, too. And with the roleplaying fiasco, we see that they don’t do anything that both of them are not fully and enthusiastically willing to do. Doesn’t sound like miserable sex lives to me.

So with all this, I think the problem is actually less the fault of mxtx’s writing and more of a quirk of general fandom, where sex between couples are put in two categories: 1) the sex god couples that are just “inherently” sexually compatible, regardless of their actual sexual experience or 2) the “useless virgins” who have awkward, potentially painful sex always regardless of intentions. And not to say that this can’t be written well or interestingly explored (I have my preference for the former category), but I think people need to remember that “good sex” is actually not a monolith and people get “better” at sex from communicating with the partner(s) that they are having sex with at the time, something both wangxian and bingqiu do with each other.

There’s no one book or teacher that can make you sex god because every individual (if they like sex) likes sex differently. So stop saying that mxtx writes bad sex just because you don’t see what the couples do as something you would personally enjoy. And stop assuming the characters have bad sex simply because nobody sat them down for an advanced sex class!

[izartn]

Under Keep Reading/whatvs:

I’ll start by saying directly: for most of the novel, Bingqiu is neither healthy nor romantic. And that this is not bad writing, but on purpose.

A relationship that drives one party to mental breakdown isn’t healthy. A relationship where that party says it’s okay to hurt or kill them can’t possibly be healthy. That happened because there was something deeply wrong with their relationship, something that can’t be reduced to Xin Mo, miscommunication, or LBH throwing a tropey yandere fit.

And out of all three MXTX novels, only SV lacks a love confession from the MC to the ML. Again, I don’t think it’s an oversight, or just because SQQ’s face is too thin. There are plenty of ways MXTX could have worked a subtle one in if she really wanted to.

In my opinion, Bingqiu’s narrative can be split up into four arcs: Qing Jing Peak (ch 1-27), Jin Lan City (28-43), Post-revival (29-55), and Reconciliation (56-81). Other than the first arc, where their relationship is pretty straightforward, Bingqiu spend most of the rest in direct conflict.

I’ll give an overview of the arcs here, but what I truly want to say about Bingqiu starts in arc 4, so if you’re impatient you can scroll down. But the overview might help add context.

Jin Lan City arc is about LBH’s anger at being brutally betrayed by the one person he thought he could trust. Here he tries to force answers out of SQQ, who he believes both hates him and is a hypocrite. He’s driven by a desire to return to the past, but his rage and love makes his actions contradictory: on one hand he tries to win SQQ’s approval constructively, by climbing to the top of Huan Hua Palace and performing good deeds, on the other hand his belief that SQQ doesn’t care about him so it’s all futile anyway (reinforced by SQQ’s own actions) causes him to lash out destructively, going as far as to hurt and imprison SQQ.

LBH’s bitterness is portrayed very negatively, because all it does is instill despair into SQQ, until SQQ ends up believing that he’s only been a blight on LBH’s life, and that he must make up for it by killing himself. Whereupon LBH breaks down, regressing into a childlike state. Some might ask, why does LBH never bring up the Abyss again afterwards? It’s because he gives up here. This entire arc is about getting LBH to let go of past wrongs and to stop seeking answers, whether the reader believes it’s fair to him or not. Because SQQ’s life is more important.

Post-revival arc then is about SQQ trying to come to terms with a blackened LBH who also loves him. Interestingly, despite SQQ’s horror at realizing LBH was romantically interested in him all along, SQQ actually has a very subtle but telling secondary reaction. To explain, let’s back up to the first arc.

Starting around ch 9, probably as a sign of his growing affection, SQQ begins addressing LBH as 这孩子, or “this child,” in his internal monologue, instead of LBH’s name. He does it once each in ch 9, 12, 17, 21, 25. However, once Jin Lan City arc starts, SQQ drops the address entirely. LBH and “child” are never brought up together except for one snarky comment on LBH’s tantrum being disgracefully childish in ch 38.

At first glance this doesn’t look noteworthy because LBH by this point is no longer a kid. But when LBH kisses him in ch 49, SQQ changes again: right away he returns to using “child” on LBH, and the “this child” address starts popping up at a much higher frequency. By the end of SV SQQ has referred to LBH as a child in some manner at least 35 times (yes I went and counted), with the vast majority after ch 49, and he continues to do so right into the last extra.

Why was SQQ unwilling to use this address of affection for over 20 chapters? Perhaps because he too thought LBH hated him, and couldn’t bear to think about him so intimately knowing that. So SQQ immediately falling back into it the moment he learns LBH loves him is a sign of his relief. He’s still dismayed at the romantic part, but though SQQ likes to deflect from his real emotions (this is the guy who focused on bad naming sense after being fatally poisoned, who cavalierly commented only after it was all over that he’d expected to die), the fact that LBH loves and doesn’t hate him, means a lot.

Here SQQ’s feelings towards LBH are at their most complicated. He still assumes the worst of him like in Jin Lan City, but now because of the above, also sees a lonely child whenever LBH is unhappy and lost. It’s like he has two filters actively interfering with each other, “crazed criminal” and “pitiful child,” and so he flip-flops between pushing LBH away and comforting him. But when LBH drags CQMS into it, and even seemingly takes advantage of SQQ’s love for him, SQQ’s negative image and frustration with him only grows, until he finally snaps and tells LBH to never come near him again.

At this point SQQ still believes that LBH is the same black-hearted, invincible, devil incarnate that og!LBH was portrayed to be. The Reconciliation arc starts by chipping away at this filter that’s been plaguing SQQ for so long. First the revelation that TLJ/ZZL was behind the sowers, thus clearing LBH’s name at Jin Lan City. Then we see how unloved he is by his own father; we see him injured and helpless and unconscious. Meng Mo yells at SQQ, reinforcing that image of a vulnerable, terrified child. So by ch 62 SQQ has thrown away the “crazed criminal” filter completely, and in that same chapter they cling to each other and finally make up. Because while it’s true that the current LBH is misanthropic, antisocial, and mercurial, SQQ has also finally accepted that he’s still the same LBH he’d raised and doted on, back on Qing Jing Peak.

Now I’m going to talk about what I see as the most important part of Bingqiu. Yes, despite the wall of text already.

A common sentiment of Bingqiu shippers about their issues seems to be, “SQQ is dumb and oblivious; he can’t figure out what LBH needs even though he loves him because he sees LBH as a novel character,” but I think the problem is far more complicated and insidious than that. If that was everything, why give SQQ the epiphany that he misunderstood LBH so early? Why have him think in ch 66 that “truthfully, he’d never really trusted Luo Binghe, and that’s why he kept accidentally hurting him?” If he’s already realized that he shouldn’t treat LBH like og!LBH (he even meets og!LBH in ch 71 to rub it in further), why do we go another 13 chapters believing their relationship is good and well, even giving us a sweet, happy moment in ch 75, only to show LBH having the worst breakdown of the novel just 4 chapters later? Was it all just padding to demonstrate the danger of Xin Mo?

Or is there something else beneath the surface?

In ch 66, the same chapter where SQQ implies he doesn’t want to accidentally hurt LBH anymore, he says something telling. When LQG is skeptical that LBH can be trusted, SQQ thinks, 家里孩子不懂事，大人不容易做, or “when your child doesn’t know any better, as the adult you don’t have it easy.” The child here of course refers to LBH, and the adult is SQQ, who’s complaining about smoothing over LBH’s messes. But what is SQQ implying here?

Doesn’t know any better? That’s what you say about a toddler who can’t think for themselves, not a grown man. LBH is 25 and SQQ thinks he doesn’t know better. Doesn’t know better about what? LBH’s wants, his needs? His feelings? Or even what’s good for him?

And then you realize that’s exactly how SQQ’s always treated him, like a helpless child who can’t make his own choices.

It’s SQQ who chooses to throw LBH down into the Abyss without trying to talk to him. It’s SQQ who decides that keeping silent is the best choice. It’s SQQ who believes self-destructing in front of LBH will help, who thinks that breaking off their relationship is for the better. And it’s SQQ who scolds LBH into tolerating CQMS, even though they hate each other and CQMS is hostile towards him. Who forces him to leave first at Zhao Hua Temple despite LBH’s pleas otherwise, who shoos him out the window when CQMS walks in on them.

Every single one of these decisions, SQQ made believing it was for the best (repair LBH’s relationship with his family, help him avoid arrest, not wanting to make excuses, wanting LBH to be free of his hatred), and every single one of them only damaged LBH further. Because SQQ’s never listened to him, even once. Never consulted him or considered his feelings.

(And LBH did try to bring up his feelings on one of the matters in ch 75. He insinuates to SQQ that he doesn’t like LQG calling him “little beast” or “ingrate.” And SQQ’s response is to dismiss them entirely, saying that LQG’s “not wrong.”)

SQQ has always loved LBH, but he’s never once respected LBH’s agency or personhood. Because LBH doesn’t know better and SQQ does, so SQQ must make all his decisions for him.

And this, amplified by Xin Mo, is what finally drives LBH mad in ch 79.

To LBH, the important part isn’t whether SQQ loves him, which I think he knew after ch 43 (it’s why he can be so daring and pushy with SQQ’s boundaries). What’s important is that the moment SQQ believes abandoning LBH is justified for whatever reason again, SQQ absolutely will.

Ch 80’s two-way noncon (since LBH was basically unconscious and couldn’t consent) tends to draw most of the attention, but I actually think that what happens afterwards is one of the most important scenes for Bingqiu. There SQQ tries to sacrifice himself a second time for LBH, drawing Xin Mo’s demonic qi into his body. Yet the novel claims that SQQ’s actions here are completely different than in ch 43. SQQ himself says that this time he’s doing it for LBH, while last time he was doing it for himself. But can the reader see a functional difference?

There is one, in fact: it’s SQQ’s response to LBH’s choice afterwards. LBH decides to follow SQQ in death, even though this would void the point of SQQ’s sacrifice. But instead of insisting otherwise, SQQ just accepts it. Because he finally understands that whether LBH’s life is worth living, whether LBH will be better off, is for LBH and only LBH to decide.

It’s the first time he respects LBH’s agency. And this is the only reason why he and LBH can finally begin building a healthy relationship on the mess they’ve had up to now.

So that’s what I see as the true beauty behind Bingqiu. It’s about communication and mistaken assumptions, yes, but it’s also about the nature of love between parent and child. The romantic developments were left to the extras, I believe, because this was the main story MXTX wanted to tell with them. Their relationship as lovers only starts afterwards, hence why SV ends with, “the story between you and I, has only just begun.” It was never meant to be a whirlwind romance where they fall in love cleanly. It might not to be to everyone’s tastes, but an incredible amount of thought was put into the narrative, and that’s what amazed me when I first finished this novel.

(This post went on way too long and I ended up cutting off a huge chunk of tangential stuff and how SQQ came to his realization in ch 79: he didn’t do it alone. It took him seeing the LBH in TLJ and the himself in YQY for him to understand. In fact, YQY and og!SQQ’s relationship has a similar parent-and-child dynamic. I’ve touched on it before on twitter; if there’s interest I might try writing that up here too.)

This is like seeing clarity for the first time. Wow what an illuminating meta; the mess of different kind of relationships (as viewed by their differing povs) complicated things too, until the end. Like, lots of other factors have weight on the mess of bingqiu but I think this right here is overlooked or misundertood...

Miss Faelicy I would love to get your opinion on Bingqiu.

I see people posting things like how they are "problematic" and how they don't really love each other and SQQ only feels sympathy etc. Obviously there were struggles between them as there should be (considering all that happened) and just because sqq wasn't very open and super obvious about his feelings doesn't mean they are not there..this is how I interpreted it. I would love to know your opinion

Hello! This also covers part 2 of the previous ask.

First, massive spoilers for the end of the novel. Second, a disclaimer: I despise shipwars, which I think are behind most of those comments. I hate them because it's usually all in bad faith: everyone's already committed to their interpretation of the ships, and any discussion is just a guise for justifying their preferences.

So to any readers: I don't want anything here to be used as shipwar fuel. This post is about Bingqiu's canon arc and themes. Basically, I don't know or care if Bingqiu is a good ship, but I do think it's a well-written one.

I'll start by saying directly: for most of the novel, Bingqiu is neither healthy nor romantic. And that this is not bad writing, but on purpose.

A relationship that drives one party to mental breakdown isn't healthy. A relationship where that party says it's okay to hurt or kill them can't possibly be healthy. That happened because there was something deeply wrong with their relationship, something that can't be reduced to Xin Mo, miscommunication, or LBH throwing a tropey yandere fit.

And out of all three MXTX novels, only SV lacks a love confession from the MC to the ML. Again, I don't think it's an oversight, or just because SQQ's face is too thin. There are plenty of ways MXTX could have worked a subtle one in if she really wanted to.

In my opinion, Bingqiu's narrative can be split up into four arcs: Qing Jing Peak (ch 1-27), Jin Lan City (28-43), Post-revival (29-55), and Reconciliation (56-81). Other than the first arc, where their relationship is pretty straightforward, Bingqiu spend most of the rest in direct conflict.

I'll give an overview of the arcs here, but what I truly want to say about Bingqiu starts in arc 4, so if you're impatient you can scroll down. But the overview might help add context.

Jin Lan City arc is about LBH's anger at being brutally betrayed by the one person he thought he could trust. Here he tries to force answers out of SQQ, who he believes both hates him and is a hypocrite. He's driven by a desire to return to the past, but his rage and love makes his actions contradictory: on one hand he tries to win SQQ's approval constructively, by climbing to the top of Huan Hua Palace and performing good deeds, on the other hand his belief that SQQ doesn't care about him so it's all futile anyway (reinforced by SQQ's own actions) causes him to lash out destructively, going as far as to hurt and imprison SQQ.

LBH's bitterness is portrayed very negatively, because all it does is instill despair into SQQ, until SQQ ends up believing that he's only been a blight on LBH's life, and that he must make up for it by killing himself. Whereupon LBH breaks down, regressing into a childlike state. Some might ask, why does LBH never bring up the Abyss again afterwards? It's because he gives up here. This entire arc is about getting LBH to let go of past wrongs and to stop seeking answers, whether the reader believes it's fair to him or not. Because SQQ's life is more important.

Post-revival arc then is about SQQ trying to come to terms with a blackened LBH who also loves him. Interestingly, despite SQQ's horror at realizing LBH was romantically interested in him all along, SQQ actually has a very subtle but telling secondary reaction. To explain, let's back up to the first arc.

Starting around ch 9, probably as a sign of his growing affection, SQQ begins addressing LBH as 这孩子, or "this child," in his internal monologue, instead of LBH's name. He does it once each in ch 9, 12, 17, 21, 25. However, once Jin Lan City arc starts, SQQ drops the address entirely. LBH and "child" are never brought up together except for one snarky comment on LBH's tantrum being disgracefully childish in ch 38.

At first glance this doesn't look noteworthy because LBH by this point is no longer a kid. But when LBH kisses him in ch 49, SQQ changes again: right away he returns to using "child" on LBH, and the "this child" address starts popping up at a much higher frequency. By the end of SV SQQ has referred to LBH as a child in some manner at least 35 times (yes I went and counted), with the vast majority after ch 49, and he continues to do so right into the last extra.

Why was SQQ unwilling to use this address of affection for over 20 chapters? Perhaps because he too thought LBH hated him, and couldn't bear to think about him so intimately knowing that. So SQQ immediately falling back into it the moment he learns LBH loves him is a sign of his relief. He's still dismayed at the romantic part, but though SQQ likes to deflect from his real emotions (this is the guy who focused on bad naming sense after being fatally poisoned, who cavalierly commented only after it was all over that he'd expected to die), the fact that LBH loves and doesn't hate him, means a lot.

Here SQQ's feelings towards LBH are at their most complicated. He still assumes the worst of him like in Jin Lan City, but now because of the above, also sees a lonely child whenever LBH is unhappy and lost. It's like he has two filters actively interfering with each other, "crazed criminal" and "pitiful child," and so he flip-flops between pushing LBH away and comforting him. But when LBH drags CQMS into it, and even seemingly takes advantage of SQQ's love for him, SQQ's negative image and frustration with him only grows, until he finally snaps and tells LBH to never come near him again.

At this point SQQ still believes that LBH is the same black-hearted, invincible, devil incarnate that og!LBH was portrayed to be. The Reconciliation arc starts by chipping away at this filter that's been plaguing SQQ for so long. First the revelation that TLJ/ZZL was behind the sowers, thus clearing LBH's name at Jin Lan City. Then we see how unloved he is by his own father; we see him injured and helpless and unconscious. Meng Mo yells at SQQ, reinforcing that image of a vulnerable, terrified child. So by ch 62 SQQ has thrown away the "crazed criminal" filter completely, and in that same chapter they cling to each other and finally make up. Because while it's true that the current LBH is misanthropic, antisocial, and mercurial, SQQ has also finally accepted that he's still the same LBH he'd raised and doted on, back on Qing Jing Peak.

Now I'm going to talk about what I see as the most important part of Bingqiu. Yes, despite the wall of text already.

A common sentiment of Bingqiu shippers about their issues seems to be, "SQQ is dumb and oblivious; he can't figure out what LBH needs even though he loves him because he sees LBH as a novel character," but I think the problem is far more complicated and insidious than that. If that was everything, why give SQQ the epiphany that he misunderstood LBH so early? Why have him think in ch 66 that "truthfully, he'd never really trusted Luo Binghe, and that's why he kept accidentally hurting him?" If he's already realized that he shouldn't treat LBH like og!LBH (he even meets og!LBH in ch 71 to rub it in further), why do we go another 13 chapters believing their relationship is good and well, even giving us a sweet, happy moment in ch 75, only to show LBH having the worst breakdown of the novel just 4 chapters later? Was it all just padding to demonstrate the danger of Xin Mo?

Or is there something else beneath the surface?

In ch 66, the same chapter where SQQ implies he doesn't want to accidentally hurt LBH anymore, he says something telling. When LQG is skeptical that LBH can be trusted, SQQ thinks, 家里孩子不懂事，大人不容易做, or "when your child doesn't know any better, as the adult you don't have it easy." The child here of course refers to LBH, and the adult is SQQ, who's complaining about smoothing over LBH's messes. But what is SQQ implying here?

Doesn't know any better? That's what you say about a toddler who can't think for themselves, not a grown man. LBH is 25 and SQQ thinks he doesn't know better. Doesn't know better about what? LBH's wants, his needs? His feelings? Or even what's good for him?

And then you realize that's exactly how SQQ's always treated him, like a helpless child who can't make his own choices.

It's SQQ who chooses to throw LBH down into the Abyss without trying to talk to him. It's SQQ who decides that keeping silent is the best choice. It's SQQ who believes self-destructing in front of LBH will help, who thinks that breaking off their relationship is for the better. And it's SQQ who scolds LBH into tolerating CQMS, even though they hate each other and CQMS is hostile towards him. Who forces him to leave first at Zhao Hua Temple despite LBH's pleas otherwise, who shoos him out the window when CQMS walks in on them.

Every single one of these decisions, SQQ made believing it was for the best (repair LBH's relationship with his family, help him avoid arrest, not wanting to make excuses, wanting LBH to be free of his hatred), and every single one of them only damaged LBH further. Because SQQ's never listened to him, even once. Never consulted him or considered his feelings.

(And LBH did try to bring up his feelings on one of the matters in ch 75. He insinuates to SQQ that he doesn't like LQG calling him "little beast" or "ingrate." And SQQ's response is to dismiss them entirely, saying that LQG's "not wrong.")

SQQ has always loved LBH, but he's never once respected LBH's agency or personhood. Because LBH doesn't know better and SQQ does, so SQQ must make all his decisions for him.

And this, amplified by Xin Mo, is what finally drives LBH mad in ch 79.

To LBH, the important part isn't whether SQQ loves him, which I think he knew after ch 43 (it's why he can be so daring and pushy with SQQ's boundaries). What's important is that the moment SQQ believes abandoning LBH is justified for whatever reason again, SQQ absolutely will.

Ch 80's two-way noncon (since LBH was basically unconscious and couldn't consent) tends to draw most of the attention, but I actually think that what happens afterwards is one of the most important scenes for Bingqiu. There SQQ tries to sacrifice himself a second time for LBH, drawing Xin Mo's demonic qi into his body. Yet the novel claims that SQQ's actions here are completely different than in ch 43. SQQ himself says that this time he's doing it for LBH, while last time he was doing it for himself. But can the reader see a functional difference?

There is one, in fact: it's SQQ's response to LBH's choice afterwards. LBH decides to follow SQQ in death, even though this would void the point of SQQ's sacrifice. But instead of insisting otherwise, SQQ just accepts it. Because he finally understands that whether LBH's life is worth living, whether LBH will be better off, is for LBH and only LBH to decide.

It's the first time he respects LBH's agency. And this is the only reason why he and LBH can finally begin building a healthy relationship on the mess they've had up to now.

So that's what I see as the true beauty behind Bingqiu. It's about communication and mistaken assumptions, yes, but it's also about the nature of love between parent and child. The romantic developments were left to the extras, I believe, because this was the main story MXTX wanted to tell with them. Their relationship as lovers only starts afterwards, hence why SV ends with, "the story between you and I, has only just begun." It was never meant to be a whirlwind romance where they fall in love cleanly. It might not to be to everyone's tastes, but an incredible amount of thought was put into the narrative, and that's what amazed me when I first finished this novel.

(This post went on way too long and I ended up cutting off a huge chunk of tangential stuff and how SQQ came to his realization in ch 79: he didn't do it alone. It took him seeing the LBH in TLJ and the himself in YQY for him to understand. In fact, YQY and og!SQQ's relationship has a similar parent-and-child dynamic. I've touched on it before on twitter; if there's interest I might try writing that up here too.)