#asoiaf and dune

[esther-dot]

Half Jonsa here! Thank you Esther for your lovely reply! I hope to follow your blog until TWOW comes out too.

Well, I won't take up too much of your time, but to elaborate on my position, I would say it's overall because I take much more of a Dune influence in reading ASOIAF's themes and character work. Much of the story feels like a response to Dune almost more than LOTR beyond aesthetics-- I would almost moreso say that GRRM's criticism of kingship is more rooted in Paul and Leto II's stories than anything to do with Aragorn. This is just to give you a bit more of a picture of my approach, rather than get into the nitty gritty. I also saw another anon on someone else's blog point out Paul's parallels with Dany (where, topical to the colonising of her story, is very much in line with Paul's manipulation of the Fremen-- so I think this is likely to be critical, just maybe not in the usual fashion of modern postcolonial readings) but I feel that Paul's journey parallels many, many of the cast in different ways. You can pretty much see Catelyn-Robb as a direct response to Jessica-Paul. (Again, on the Dany-Paul Dothraki-Fremen note, I do think GRRM is less successful at giving complexity to the Dothraki, but nevertheless I do think we are meant to view it through a critical lens of personality cult-- this is what I mean about it not being postcolonial, but using colonial and conqueror aesthetics for an investigation of power and personality).

I said I was going to not take up too much of your time... to put it short, I have a much darker reading of the series-- not grimdark, pain for the sake of pain, but I do think there is a real meditation on the meaning of hope in the presence of cynical reality (which is a reality I'm not so sure is realistic, but it's there). I don't totally agree with GRRM's storytelling ethos and I find the series more interesting to talk about because of peoples' response to it as opposed to an actual discrete storytelling unit.

When it comes to Jonsa itself-- there are plenty of writings on its Romantic influence (cappymightwrite, you're a star), and without TWOW it's hard to say, but I think that its potential for a torturous Gothic romance which doesn't end in marriage is too high on the books for me. I'm particularly thinking of Paul's inability to marry for love-- his political marriage with Irulan is what gives him the universe on a platter. I know, I know, it's not fair to Sansa and I hate it, and it's not fair to Jon either, but I don't think that's the story he's telling. I don't think it is fundamentally about fairness, but that sometimes there are poetic answers to fairness, and maybe some justification which comes after the fact in songs and stories. I really don't want to write a treatise in your inbox, but when I say 'half a Jonsa' really I am trying to describe I don't think it's endgame, and that a lot of the theories/ethos which goes along with it are not what I entirely agree with.

Which is to say that yes, I do think Bran as God Emperor like Leto II (despite magic being 'evil', or potentially amoral, in my books) is a real possibility. It happened in the show, sure, but they didn't fully investigate the ramifications (and the specific commentary GRRM has on kingship--- specifically feudalism-- and what it means to make it 'work' with the tools of the fantasy genre). I think powderpowderblue might recognise my message because I've sent one before about Bran separately (sorry powder). I think there is a deeper contrast between Dany's magic and Bran's magic--- what sort of power gives you the capacity to rule, and how that compromises your humanity, or equally doesn't-- with Bran's own response to Dany's nukes. Bran and Dany have the potential to be even bigger foils than Jon and Dany, honestly.

You're totally right that there's a lot of room for different people in the Jonsa fandom, and I would say that by in large Jonsas are the most interesting (I say this with some impartiality, just because ASOIAF is not my main obsession) because they entertain the most different perspectives, even when they become committed to certain theories here and there. I think where I personally feel a bit reserved about it is because I think ASOIAF is less grim than Redditors think it is (and they miss the mark thematically) but I think it's much more grim than Tumblr by in large thinks it is (which is where I think the 'dark' love story of Rhaegar/Lyanna really shows. It absolutely is not a simple matter. That the great love story of the series is tragic and motivated by self-absorbed and egotistical prophecy, and involves just a wolf girl dealt the fallout? That says something really major about the storytelling's beliefs. I also don't think that Jonsa can be a straightforward poetic redemption of this). I'm just speaking generally; I'm even including non-Jonsas here. As a demonstration, I don't think Brienne is the complete thesis statement-- I think she is a suggestive antithesis, but not ultimate synthesis. I see her 'No chance and no choice' quote used as justification for ASOIAF's ultimate resolution (that heroism will be outright rewarded even when it's costly), but I disagree. I think there's a reason it happens in AFFC and not the later books (and more specifically, that she has been tied to Jaime-- not for mere chaste/courtly romance (this is also why I don't think it will be consummated), not to disillusion her, but to create a more complicated thematic synthesis).

This really got too long. Please feel free to not reply in longform or not reply at all... very therapeutic for me though hahahahahha!!!!! <3 <3 <3

P.S. Don't worry I love Sansa and Jon, separately and together. Part of the argument for Jonsa, I feel, is that they're such strong, Romantic characters separately who can bring out the most interesting personality from each other-- to recontextualise their previous characterisation. Imo the literary incentive here is really clear.

Don't be scared! I always encourage people to offer their opinions even if they’re unpopular.

@cappymightwrite is wonderful! I love her Jon as a Byronic hero metas, and I've really enjoyed @powderpowderblue's thoughts too! It's hard to resist the urge to be reactionary / go to extremes because of the incentives in fandom to do so, but I really appreciate the nuanced takes.

I did not read Dune, but years ago I read Hebert's essay on writing it, Dune Genesis , and I remember feeling a lot of dread because I was definitely getting some ASOIAF-y vibes from his ideas.

I agree with this, "there is a real meditation on the meaning of hope in the presence of cynical reality" and I think that is why Sansa stands out so much to me. The contrast of her beliefs with the world that wants to crush them. Even at her most cynical, she still is herself, kind, compassionate, she's such a joy.

I completely agree about Dany and Bran being foils! I've either answered or lost in my drafts something about that. I kinda think Dany works as a foil to each of the Starks in a different way.

"I think it's much more grim than Tumblr by in large thinks it is" I think I agree here. I would have gone more with...steeped in a deep sadness. Its only natural to be drawn to conflict as a writer, that's what drives action/plot, but Martin is particularly drawn to it imo. The pain and grief he writes into our POVs...it's all very moving, makes the happy moments that much brighter, but I definitely get the impression that's what he's drawn to. That doesn't at all mean there aren't good endings in store for some of our favs, but I don't think he'll make anything easy.

"That the great love story of the series is tragic and motivated by self-absorbed and egotistical prophecy, and involves just a wolf girl dealt the fallout? That says something really major about the storytelling's beliefs. I also don't think that Jonsa can be a straightforward poetic redemption of this" -- So, this is what I've been going around in circles on. Each time I answer an ask about Rhaegar I get a handful more because we all hate him but we all disagree on what Martin is doing with him. I think how Martin wrote Cat and Ned, one of the few healthy romantic relationships we get, indicates the extent of his interest in conflict/pain, so it seems inevitable that every relationship --Jonsa too-- would have that. I do think we're due for a romance that is more reward than pain which makes me hope though.

There's so much about a Targ/Stark Jonsa kinda has to be part of that convo, and I've heard people suggest that Sansa, unlike her younger self and unlike Lyanna, may fall in love with Jon but this time she will resist it which is why she will escape tragedy in the end. I don't buy that, but there are multiple ways Jonsa could evolve the convo, so I certainly don't dismiss your view. I personally am not into tragic love stories, but once Martin gave an interview and said he was, so I take that into consideration.

Brienne is the complete thesis statement-- I think she is a suggestive antithesis, but not ultimate synthesis. I see her 'No chance and no choice' quote used as justification for ASOIAF's ultimate resolution (that heroism will be outright rewarded even when it's costly), but I disagree. I think there's a reason it happens in AFFC and not the later books (and more specifically, that she has been tied to Jaime-- not for mere chaste/courtly romance (this is also why I don't think it will be consummated), not to disillusion her, but to create a more complicated thematic synthesis --I'm gonna have to sit with this.

Part of the argument for Jonsa, I feel, is that they're such strong, Romantic characters separately who can bring out the most interesting personality from each other-- to recontextualise their previous characterisation. --Love that!

Thank you for taking the time to write all that, and I'm glad you found it therapeutic. Feel free to share more of your thoughts anytime! 💗

[benevolentfalcon]

Most sci fi/fantasy: this civil war has been waged for a thousand years. These great houses have ruled the realm for eight thousand years. These two families have been feuding for ten thousand years. This single political institution has stood for twenty-five thousand years.

Animorphs: there is a war waged across the galaxy, waged by countless species. Entire planets have been conquered, entire species have been enslaved. Multiple genocides have been committed, even by the "good guys." It's been going on about, oh, thirty-two years now.

[irlplasticlamb]

i must not fear. fear is the mind-killer.

prints + merch

[catofoldstones]

we already have people bitching about how “i can’t stand Chani, she’s so annoying 🙄” and “Paul chose Chani to be the mother of his children, Irulan is just at the sidelines eating dust as she should”, like brothers we cannot do this again. We can’t Chani v Irulan our way out of this one because the problem is Paul and the Empire. Gosh, we truly are never getting out of the patriarchy.

[franzkafkagf]

PAUL ATREIDES & MAEGOR TARGARYEN – ON POWER, MOTHERS, DESTINY AND COMING BACK WRONG

pet sematary – stephen king / fire & blood artwork – doug wheatley / dune: part two – denis villeneuve / dune – denis villeneuve / came back wrong / dune – frank herbert / fire & blood – george r. r. martin / on visenya targaryen / dune: messiah – frank herbert

[loveakii]

a game of thrones + dune

[novaursa]

Of Gods and Men (exodus)

Introduction

This is Dune/GOT/HOTD/FAB/ASOIAF crossover AU that you've voted for. If you always wanted to see House Targaryen in space, I got you. Please note how some of the lore of both universes is bent to blend in both worlds. This is my original idea that I've been cooking for at least two years. Be gentle with my work, and enjoy the ride.

- Summary: House Targaryen survives their ancient exile after being overthrown by House Corrino and the Bene Gesserit. Fleeing to the unknown planet Albiron, the Targaryens build a hidden civilization powered by drakaon crystals, reviving their dragons and creating advanced technology. Millennia later, whispers of their survival begin to surface as the Bene Gesserit confront a mysterious Red Woman on Arrakis, who warns of a coming Prince That Was Promised destined to challenge their control. The Targaryens secretly prepare to return, ready to reclaim their legacy.

- Paring: reader!Daenys Targaryen/Leto Atredies

- Rating: Mature 16+

- Note: For more details about House Targaryen and their technology, please check out the masterlist.

- Next part: contact

- Tag(s): @sachaa-ff @alyssa-dayne @oxymakestheworldgoround

Millennia before the reign of the Padishah Emperors, before the Guild navigators learned to bend space, and long before the Bene Gesserit began their breeding program, there was another power, a House whose name was whispered with awe and fear across the stars—House Targaryen of Valyria.

In those ancient days, Valyria was a shining jewel of the universe, a world of towering spires and grand pyramids, whose mighty fleets ruled not one world but twelve. From the skies of Laansarad to the distant colonies of Qohar and Sarnor, their banner—a red three-headed dragon on a field of black—was a symbol of dominion, and their words, "Fire and Blood," were a promise. Their secret to power was not only their advanced technology or their skill in combat, but something far older, something the Imperium would come to call "unnatural." For the Targaryens were bonded to creatures of legend—dragons—whose very existence defied the laws of nature and technology.

But their power, their fire, had not gone unnoticed.

Once they emerged, the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood, ever-seeking control of bloodlines to further their goals, had long coveted House Targaryen's strength. Yet they could not penetrate the Targaryen bloodline, for the House was immune to the Sisterhood's manipulations. Rumors abounded that the dragons themselves had gifted their riders with an ancient magic that made them resistant to the spice and to the Bene Gesserit’s arts. The Targaryens did not bow, did not mingle their blood with the lesser Houses of the Imperium, and did not submit to the Sisterhood’s schemes. This isolation, this defiance, would be their undoing.

It began as whispers in the shadows of the imperial court of House Corrino, whispers that spoke of Valyria’s growing influence and its potential threat to the Emperor's rule. Fearing the power of House Targaryen and the dragons they commanded, House Corrino, in secret alliance with the Bene Gesserit and several other noble houses, set in motion a betrayal that would forever change the galaxy.

Without warning, the skies of Valyria turned dark as Corrino's fleets descended upon the planet like locusts. Great dreadnoughts unleashed their fury, raining nuclear fire upon the unsuspecting cities. The Targaryens, though powerful, were not prepared for such treachery. The star cities of Valyria, with their grand pyramids and towering spires, were reduced to ash in a matter of hours. Their colonies—once strongholds of the Targaryen vassal Houses—were similarly annihilated in the firestorm.

The Bene Gesserit, cold and calculating, had played their part well. They ensured that no Targaryen blood would escape their reach, confident that the ancient dragonlords were now a cautionary tale, a reminder that even the greatest Houses could fall.

But they were wrong.

In the chaos, a single fleet—a fraction of the once-mighty armada—managed to escape the inferno. Led by Aenar Targaryen, a visionary dragonlord, and his most loyal vassals, the remnants of House Targaryen fled into the void. Their dragons, too, escaped, fleeing with their riders into the unknown. With the enemy forces closing in, Aenar made the hardest decision of his life. He ordered the abandonment of the civilian starships—hundreds of them—that could not jump through space at the speed needed to escape. Tens of thousands of men, women, and children—innocent lives—were sacrificed to buy time for the chosen few. As the slow ships limped away at sub-light speed, doomed to be caught by their pursuers, the core fleet vanished in the blink of an eye, jumping to coordinates no one in the known galaxy had ever seen.

In their flight, they left behind only death and ruin, convincing the Imperium that House Targaryen was no more. The Bene Gesserit believed the bloodline had been wiped out. House Corrino celebrated their victory, confident that their throne was secure.

But the Targaryens were not dead.

As the surviving ships jumped further and further into uncharted space, their surviving dragons roared in defiance. Aenar Targaryen vowed that his House would rise again. The fire that had consumed Valyria would be reborn, and one day, the red three-headed dragon would fly again over the stars.

Their enemies had only bought themselves time.

In the vast, unknown reaches of space, the last of House Targaryen sought a new home, far from the grasp of the Empire, far from the Bene Gesserit’s eyes. In their hearts burned a single truth: fire and blood. It was all they had left.

And it was all they would need.

Far beyond the reach of the known universe, in the vast and uncharted depths of space, the last of House Targaryen drifted. For weeks, their ships had traveled through the void, their destination unknown, their hopes tethered only to the coordinates embedded in their ancient star charts. Aenar Targaryen, now the sole leader of his House, stood at the helm of his flagship, his mind consumed by thoughts of what was lost and what might yet be found.

Then, the scanners caught sight of something—a planet unlike any they had ever seen. Its atmosphere glowed a rich, deep red, the color of blood under an alien sun. Its oceans shimmered like rubies, and its vast jungles, though strange and wild, thrummed with life. The planet seemed to call to them, a beacon of hope in the darkest night.

"This is it," Aenar said, his voice carrying the weight of a prophecy. "We shall call it Albiron."

As the Targaryen ships descended upon the planet's surface, they found a world brimming with untapped potential. The air was thick but breathable, rich with minerals that nourished the vast jungles below. Towering mountains stretched into the sky, their peaks capped with dormant volcanoes. Aenar made his home there, at the highest point, building a grand pyramid into the volcanic chain that would serve as both fortress and palace. Around it, more pyramids soon rose, connected by a complex nexus of pathways above the dark amber forests. Below, cities began to form, hidden by the jungle canopy, shielded from prying eyes.

Albiron was a world of secrecy, and House Targaryen would see to it that their new home remained unknown to the Imperium and its allies.

As they delved deeper into the planet's surface, they made a discovery that would change the course of their history. In the heart of a vast canyon, buried beneath layers of rock and time, they uncovered a crystal unlike any they had seen before. The crystals, translucent with a faint golden hue, pulsed with an energy that seemed almost alive. Aenar named them drakaon, in honor of the dragons that once ruled Valyria, and the power they held was nothing short of revolutionary.

The drakaon crystals, as they soon learned, could be harnessed as a new energy source. They could be used to fuel their ships, making long-distance space travel possible without the reliance on melange—the spice that had kept the Imperium in control of the stars. For the first time in millennia, the Targaryens were free from the constraints of the galaxy’s economy, free from the Guild's stranglehold on space travel. Their technology advanced rapidly, fueled by the power of the drakaon crystals, and soon, the Targaryens had fleets capable of crossing the stars without detection, fleets that no longer needed to bow to the powers of the known universe.

In secret, they thrived. The cities of Albiron grew more complex and advanced, their pyramids rising higher, their pathways extending further across the planet’s vast jungles. Their ships patrolled the unknown regions, mapping uncharted stars and ensuring that no one would find their new home.

But the greatest secret of all lay within the depths of their new world.

Within hidden caverns, deep beneath the volcanoes of Albiron, Aenar and his descendants built vast hatcheries. Here, using knowledge salvaged from the lost archives of Valyria, they revived their ancient bond with dragons. Clutch by clutch, new dragons were born, their eggs glowing with the same fiery life that had once illuminated the skies of Valyria. The first to hatch was a magnificent beast, its scales a deep, molten red, its eyes like twin suns. They named it Vexarion, a harbinger of the new Targaryen age.

As the hatcheries grew, so too did the dragons, each one bonded to a rider, as had been the tradition for millennia. Once more, the Targaryens flew on dragonback, their fire-breathing companions reclaiming the skies of Albiron. They were stronger, fiercer than ever, their lifespans prolonged by the spice, their health enhanced by the crystals, just as their ancestors had once done. The galaxy believed the last dragons had died millennia ago, but here, on this blood-red planet, they lived—and they thrived.

Under Aenar’s leadership, House Targaryen rebuilt its strength. They did not forget their defeat, nor did they forgive it. But they had learned patience. For now, they would remain hidden, waiting, watching, biding their time in the shadows of the Imperium. They would rise again, but not yet. For now, their future lay in the skies above Albiron, in the bond between dragon and rider, in the power of the drakaon crystals that flowed beneath their feet.

Thousands of years had passed since the fall of Valyria, and the known galaxy had all but forgotten the name Targaryen. House Corrino ruled unchallenged, the Bene Gesserit continued their manipulations, and the spice flowed as the lifeblood of the Imperium. The Targaryens, once feared and powerful, were now little more than a cautionary tale—a story told to remind the galaxy of the dangers of defying the throne.

But in the far reaches of space, beyond the gaze of the Emperor, beyond the Sisterhood’s influence, whispers had begun to circulate. Minor Houses in the fringe systems spoke in hushed tones of strange transactions, of peculiar spice shipments that defied the standard flow of commerce. Most notably, a small, unassuming House known as House Vex had begun to quietly sell a specific brand of spice to select, discreet buyers.

The spice itself was nothing extraordinary at first glance—reddish-brown in color, with the same faint glow that all melange possessed. Yet, when examined closely, it held properties that puzzled even the most skilled refiners. It resisted traditional refinement processes, requiring a unique method of rensfuration to unlock its full potency. And it was always purchased by the same anonymous entity, whose representatives never gave names, never left a trace.

Rumors swirled throughout the Imperium. Some said the spice had properties that could extend life far beyond what even melange could achieve. Others whispered that it had been tailored for use in genetic experimentation, perhaps even to create a superhuman race immune to the Bene Gesserit's influence. The most outlandish rumors claimed it was being used to resurrect a forgotten House, one whose bloodline had been immune to the Sisterhood’s powers millennia ago.

At first, the whispers were dismissed. Minor Houses always had their secrets, after all, and House Vex was hardly influential enough to warrant concern. But as more and more shipments of this peculiar spice quietly disappeared into the unknown universe, suspicions began to grow. The Spacing Guild noticed the irregularities in the spice routes, and the Bene Gesserit began to pay attention. Still, no one dared speak openly of it—House Corrino had no interest in encouraging the notion of a long-lost enemy returning from the shadows.

In truth, the rumors were closer to the truth than anyone realized.

Deep within the jungles of Albiron, the Targaryens had mastered the art of spice refinement—not for their own use, but for their dragons. The spice, in its raw form, had always been a valuable tool to extend human life and grant certain enhancements, but the Targaryens had discovered a very specific strain, a rare and potent variant that, when carefully refined, could do far more. It extended not just the lifespan of their dragons but enhanced their vitality, their strength, their fire. The dragons of Albiron, already magnificent creatures of fire and fury, became more resilient, more powerful than they had ever been in Valyria.

This strain of spice could only be harvested under particular conditions, and it required an even more delicate process of rensfuration, one that took years to perfect. The Targaryens had kept this secret for generations, using it only sparingly to ensure their dragons thrived in exile. And to maintain their anonymity, they allowed House Vex—a small House bound to them in loyalty for centuries—to sell a portion of the raw spice to the wider galaxy, hiding the true purpose of the refined strain.

The transactions were always discreet, the buyers carefully selected to ensure that no one could trace the spice back to Albiron. Yet despite all their precautions, the galaxy had begun to take notice. The mystery surrounding the spice—and the shadowy figures who bought it—grew with each passing year.

The Bene Gesserit, ever watchful, sensed a disturbance in the patterns of the Imperium. Though they could not put their finger on it, the Sisterhood had learned to listen for the subtle currents of power that ran through the universe, and something was shifting. The idea that a House immune to their influence could have survived all these years in secret sent a ripple of unease through their ranks. They began to dig deeper, their agents searching for any clue that might lead them to the source of the rumors.

House Corrino, too, grew wary. The spice trade was the lifeblood of the Empire, and any irregularity in its flow could have disastrous consequences. The Emperor’s spies were dispatched to the farthest corners of the galaxy, though none returned with answers.

Still, the rumors persisted. The spice that had no clear origin. The mysterious buyers from beyond known space. The possibility that a forgotten House might yet live.

In the halls of the Imperium, no one spoke openly of House Targaryen. To do so would invite questions that no one wanted to answer. But in the dark corridors of power, in the quiet whispers between those who dealt in secrets, the name began to surface again.

Targaryen.

Fire and blood.

The galaxy had forgotten them, but House Targaryen had never forgotten the galaxy. And as their dragons grew stronger, as their power in exile continued to build, they waited.

For one day, the whispers would no longer be rumors.

And when that day came, the stars themselves would tremble.

The scorching winds of Arrakis blew fiercely through the narrow streets of Arrakeen, carrying with them the dry scent of spice and the whispers of rebellion. The city, usually shrouded in an oppressive silence broken only by the occasional hum of machinery, now thrummed with tension. A crowd had gathered in the heart of the city, their faces hidden beneath hoods and veils to protect against the harsh sun, their voices rising in fervor as they listened to the woman who stood before them, bathed in the blood-red light of the setting sun.

She was known only as the Red Woman, a stranger from a distant corner of the galaxy, draped in flowing crimson robes that shimmered in the heat. Her eyes burned with an unnatural fire, and her voice, rich and commanding, seemed to cut through the dry air like a blade.

“Brothers, sisters,” she called out, her voice echoing through the square. “You have been deceived! For too long, the Bene Gesserit have whispered their lies into the ears of your leaders, guiding the hand of the Empire toward a future of darkness and death. But the Lord of Light has seen their evil, and He has sent me to show you the truth.”

The crowd murmured in agreement, their eyes locked on the Red Woman as she raised her hands, flames seemingly dancing at her fingertips.

“The night is dark and full of terrors,” she intoned, her voice growing louder. “But there is a light coming, a flame that will burn away the lies of the Bene Gesserit. The false messiah they prepare will lead to the deaths of billions! But the Prince That Was Promised, the true savior, will rise and deliver us from their evil.”

The crowd erupted into shouts of agreement, their fists raised toward the sky as the Red Woman’s message of salvation stirred their hearts. But not everyone in Arrakeen was so moved by her words.

From the shadows of a nearby alley, a figure emerged, flanked by a dozen Bene Gesserit acolytes. The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, her face etched with the lines of age and power, strode forward with the grace of a predator. Her sharp blue eyes took in the scene before her, the riotous crowd, the Red Woman at their center, and the burning passion in their eyes. She had seen such passion before, in other corners of the universe, and she knew well the danger it posed.

The Red Woman turned her gaze toward the Bene Gesserit as they approached, her lips curling into a cold smile. “Ah, the serpents come to silence me,” she said, her voice dripping with mockery. “Do you fear the truth, Mother?”

Mother Mohiam’s expression remained unchanged as she stepped forward, her voice as cold as the sands of Arrakis at night. “You have no place here, woman. You are not of Arrakis, and you bring only chaos to these people. Leave this world, now, or you will face the consequences.”

The Red Woman laughed, the sound high and sharp, cutting through the murmur of the crowd. “I serve only the Lord of Light, not your false Empire or your twisted Sisterhood. You, who claim to see the future, who shape the paths of men to serve your own ends, are the true servants of darkness. You pave the way for a false messiah who will bring nothing but death and destruction to the universe.”

The Bene Gesserit acolytes shifted uneasily behind Mother Mohiam, but she stood firm, her eyes locked on the Red Woman. “You speak of a prophecy you do not understand,” she said. “The future is not for the untrained mind to glimpse. You meddle with forces beyond your comprehension.”

“The future is clear to those who serve the Light,” the Red Woman retorted. “Your Kwisatz Haderach, your so-called savior, will be the harbinger of death. He will lead the universe into a war that will consume entire worlds, killing billions. But the Prince That Was Promised will come, and he will burn away the lies you have sown.”

The crowd began to stir again, their fear and anger rising as the Red Woman’s words took hold. Mother Mohiam could feel the pulse of the mob, the heat of their desperation, and knew that if she did not act soon, this riot would spread like wildfire through the streets of Arrakeen.

“You play with fire,” Mother Mohiam said softly, stepping closer to the Red Woman. “And fire will consume you.”

The Red Woman smiled, her eyes gleaming. “The night is dark and full of terrors, Mother. You would do well to remember that.”

With that, the Red Woman raised her hands, and for a brief moment, flames flared at her fingertips once more before she stepped back into the shadows. Her followers, emboldened by her defiance, began to chant, their voices growing louder as they echoed her words.

“The night is dark and full of terrors. The Prince That Was Promised will come.”

Mother Mohiam watched as the Red Woman disappeared into the crowd, her eyes narrowing in thought. She had faced zealots before, had seen the power of faith wielded as a weapon. But this… this was something different. The Red Woman’s words echoed in her mind, unsettling her in a way few things ever had.

As the crowd began to disperse, the tension lingering in the air like the scent of spice after a storm, Mother Mohiam turned to her acolytes.

“Find her,” she said quietly. “Find her and bring her to me. We must know who she truly serves.”

For a moment, she stood in the empty square, the wind stirring the dust around her feet. She looked up at the burning sky, the twin suns casting long shadows across the desert, and a chill ran down her spine despite the heat.

The night is dark and full of terrors, indeed.

And Mother Mohiam knew that the terrors were only beginning.

- A/N: Let's see how well this does before I post another part.

[baelontargaryen]

daenerys isn’t the “paul atreides of asoiaf” grrm was never inspired by dune nor has he ever stated it was an influence on his writing for the series

when asked for opinion on frank herbert’s dune books he respected it as “classic work” but clearly wasn’t the biggest fan of them

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I saw a tiktok comparing Paul Atreides to Daenerys and it made me want to gouge out my eyes and break my phone.

I just don't understand how Dany and Paul are comparable in any way. For one thing, Dany's ending in GOT only happened because of bad writing. There's no foreshadowing, no buildup, or reason for her fall.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually read the Dune books yet, just watched the movies and read Wikipedia stuff. So anyone who has read Dune, please please please correct me if I'm misunderstanding things.

From what I saw in the movies and read from secondhand sources, Paul was never meant to be a hero. Sure, he was a good kid, but his arc isn't that of a fallen hero. The moment Paul chose to exploit the fremen and the Bene Gesserit's false prophecy, he solidified himself as anything but a hero. He was set on vengeance and survival.

Paul is a fascinating character, but he's not a hero in any way, and wasn't at any point in his story (to my understanding).

Dany is a hero, whether you like it or not. From book/season one, she's been protecting those weaker than her to the best of her ability. She sacrifices her own desires and ambitions for the sake of others.

...this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer. (ADWD - Tyrion VI)

Dany chooses to prioritize the innocent and the oppressed in her mission. Paul chooses to lead a holy war that will kill billions of innocents.

They're not comparable characters, because they're very different archetypes and communicate very different things from the authors. Dany is an underdog and someone who fights for justice while maintaining her gentleness. Paul is someone who basically embodies "for the greater good", sacrificing billions for the future.

Dany is written to be a hero, Paul is not. Dany is only turned from being a hero because of bad writing and sexism. Paul's descent is well written and clearly foreshadowed. Paul's story is what D&D wanted to gaslight the viewers into believing Dany's was. Unfortunately, that seems to have worked for certain parts of this fandom. Also, the poster had a Sansa pfp, so I think it's easy to tell why they view Dany this way.

Paul and Dany's characters aren't even in the same ballpark as each other. Comparing them is stupid.

[awakeagainstmywill]

If Lord of the Rings and Dune had a love child. And that child grew up to become its own independent person.

That's Wheel of Time.

[esther-dot]

Half Jonsa again, I wanted to thank you for your lovely reply and taking the time to respond to me. I really appreciate it. I especially liked your point about the tragic romance; I feel like an issue fandom runs into a lot is that there's a difference between pointing something out that the story is doing versus wish-fulfilment.

I don't like the double-standard between L/yanna and what I feel to be his deconstruction of the fifteen year old boyking (Paul Atreides) via Robb, for instance. Holding the tension of romance in L/yanna's story (because I subscribe to the double model - tragic romance as well as self-driven prophetic fallout) versus the political deconstruction is really difficult for me.

I'll give you complete full credit on this one: this is more like identifying GRRM's storytelling faults as opposed to really thinking about the thematic consequences of R/L.

(Continuation of this convo)

Don't even mention it! I'm so happy you came back and elaborated on your thoughts. I’m still thinking about what you said regarding Brienne’s quote!

I feel like an issue fandom runs into a lot is that there's a difference between pointing something out that the story is doing versus wish-fulfilment.

I was guilty of that myself for GoT. I mean, half of what I thought, I still think because of certain non-subjective things D&D chose to do, but when I saw that last shot of s8, I realized, this was in their heads all along, the ending they were working to for Jon, and I couldn't believe I was so sucked into Jonsa I hadn't caught on to that thread. So, yes, first hand experience with it!

However, I do have to defend the expectation for better re: Jon and Sansa in the books. When Sansa says there are no heroes and then Jon does the exact thing she wanted a hero to do for her, when Sansa says they only want her for her claim while Jon is out there refusing to take Winterfell on the grounds that it is Sansa's, we have reason to think, well, it's only a matter of time before he repudiates the other point of despair too. Obviously, I have said, this could be a secret wedding and they can't ultimately be together, that alone doesn't mean a happy ending. But the big factor that makes me question a tragic ending for Jon is that if Jon were to go to the Wall or be exiled, King Bran is not gonna be the answer to the criticism of a weak/unjust Robert that we hoped he would be.

Holding the tension of romance in L/yanna's story (because I subscribe to the double model - tragic romance as well as self-driven prophetic fallout)

I'm behind on this line of thought, I'm only now really grappling with the mess of R/L. I don't care to think of Rhaegar much because I dislike that type of character, so I don't have much to say other than his choices are the arena in which Jon has been and will play, so I know you don't think jonsa is the redemption of it, but Jon will be the response to Rhaegar. I would think the Paul Atreides discussion will be happening between Jon, Bran, Dany, the messiah-like figures, and we all know how destructive that will be for Dany, we know Bran will rise to power, possibly sacrificing himself/personal happiness for the sake of peace for his people, Jon may be the middle ground there?

I read Robb more of an answer to the romanticization of boy kinds/young heroes going to war etc. Seeing it all through Cat's eyes and her anguish keeps it very grounded for me, but again, I didn't read Dune so I'm not sure which connections you're drawing there.

This,

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

I think, is something that Martin actually wants to talk about, it is why women die giving birth or protecting their children, it is why brothers die for love of their sisters. It happens over and over, he keeps circling it, delivering versions of it, he finds it heartrending, he finds it beautiful. He is interested in marrying things that seem too far apart to relate. He does that all the time, and that I think is where I misalign with him. Sometimes his belief that these work in concert or two extremes can exist in the same place...I can't quire buy.

[fruitageoforanges]

my favourite heads of the dragon from dunk & egg —

baelor breakspear - honestly one of the most level-headed targs, though i suspect that’s just because he takes wholly after myriah. the moment with the war vs. tourney lances was epic for a jousting nerd like me, and his death is iconic, if disgusting and maybe not even medically possible.

prince valarr - idk, i just think he’s neat. he gets barely any page time, but what he does have is interesting, and i loved what he said to duncan after baelor’s death, because it shows how things that are good for protagonists aren’t, and shouldn’t be, always good for everyone else.

john the fiddler/daemon ii blackfyre - i have a precedent for liking dragon dreamers, so it’s unsurprising that daemon is my boy. he just wanted to be gay, fiddle (with duncan) and serve cunt, but somehow got caught up in his own rebellion. i really hope the rest of his life was spent as shiera seastar’s gay little purse-dog.

[maxdibert]

The most annoying thing about HOTD is that the book versions of Alicent and Rhaenyra are not at all the show’s clueless peace loving ladies constantly horrified at the violence of the men around them. Book Alicent knows from the second she gives birth to a son that she either puts him on the throne or her whole family dies, and schemes accordingly. Book Rhaenyra has absolutely zero intention of doing the sensible thing and backing down on her right to rule in order to avoid dragon civil war. Soon enough they’re all-in on inflicting maximum harm to each other for revenge. The show has neutered them both to the point of uselessness. Alicent should’ve been an iconic as Cersei!

It’s such a shame how female characters are treated in that franchise when it comes to TV adaptations. And it surprises me because HBO has other incredible series with amazing female characters. Look at Dune: The Sisterhood Prophecy or The Penguin, for example. Sofia Falcone was a fantastic discovery—her character was so well-developed, and at no point was she reduced to being pathologized or judged by the narrative as the stereotypical "woman who can’t control her emotions/manage her anger." It was a joy to see her in every episode. HBO is also responsible for adapting My Brilliant Friend, based on the Italian series of novels whose protagonists might be two of the most intense, complex, and tumultuous female characters I’ve ever read about. It’s literally one of my favorite sagas and a stunning portrayal of the social, political, cultural, psychological, sexual, and emotional violence women endure. A masterpiece, honestly. And the adaptation? Absolutely brilliant. I’ve genuinely cried over how incredibly well-made it is. Even though it can’t cover everything the books delve into, the screenplay perfectly captures the essence of every significant moment. It’s a work of art in its own right.

I don’t know if it’s something tied to the executive producers, but I haven’t read House of the Dragon yet, although I have read A Song of Ice and Fire. And literally all the women lose so much in their adaptation to the screen. Especially in the later seasons—it’s an absolute disaster in terms of how they handle the most important female characters. Apart from Sansa, every other character spirals downhill compared to their book versions.

It fascinates me that Martin writes such complex, morally gray female characters and gives the screenwriters so much to work with, yet they completely drop the ball. It’s honestly infuriating.

[perseusnot]

hii, my name is mel, i’m currently learning italian🇮🇹and looking for some italian friends (that sounds kind of weird ahaha) that could maybe help me in my journey, in exchange I can help with english or latvian if you’d like :)

here’s a bit about me:

• a small list of fandoms I am in - marauders, asoiaf, voltron, percy jackson, dune, etc.

• I like playing video games (assassin’s creed, minecraft, red dead redemption, terraria, hades)

• I watch movies and read books every so often

• I’m fluent in 2 languages and am currently learning 2

• nico di angelo and regulus black🙏🙏

(p.s. you don’t have to be italian to be friends!!! very happy to also make non-italian speaking friends:))

[nitanael]

SPOILER FOR EP 8 (LEAKED)!!!

HELLO HELLO THE MAIN CHARACTER OF ALL ASOIAF!!!