#anti-anti Jonerys

[akarena]

[Chorus:] When I wake up, I'm afraid Somebody else might take my place When I wake up, I'm afraid Somebody else might take my place

GOT S06E10 - GOT S08E04

[amaltheas-garden]

What killed any chance of book Jonerys for me was just how connected Jon is to the North (ffs his soul-bonded spirit animal looks like a weirwood tree!), which means if he survives this series, there is no way he is ever leaving. Dany's goal is to rule the 7K, and to do that, she'll have to be in KL (or Dragonstone at the very least). There's just no possible way to rule the 7K from the North, which is constantly presented as a more foreign, less connected part of Westeros compared to the rest (except Dorne), and I also don't think Dany would ever settle to be Queen in the North, seeing as all the power would reside with her husband, the Stark. The only way Jonerys works is for Dany to either successfully conquer the 7K and convince Jon to move to KL (lol could you imagine... Jon's happy ending hanging out in hands down the worst city in Westeros) or return to Essos to be queen there and drag Jon across the narrow sea (which is even funnier to imagine). Either way Dany would have to sacrifice everything she's worked for and settle to be someone's wife with no real political power, or Jon would have to leave his beloved homeland and remaining family to govern over vast swaths of territory that mean nothing to him. Anyhow, if Jon is going to have a romance, this reduces the options to any lady who is from/would be happy in the North (so unless grrm throws in yet another character this leaves Val, Arya, and Sansa). Now it just so happens that his radiant cousin/heiress of House Stark/Blood of Winterfell has all the exact same dreams for her future as he does and might be making her way to him very shortly. I'm sure this means nothing🙃

[russian-spider]

sad to see jon fans and dany fans fighting again :( game of thrones did them both dirty. they turned her into a villain and him into a traitor. they killed her and they made him useless. they were both ooc so I don't blame them for their actions, but I see some parts of the fandom still do. I'm very happy to see hotd vindicating dany and I hope some kind of retcon is coming, but I don't want to see this become a new reason to shit on jon. let's not pretend his ending didn't suck. he, too, deserved better than killing the woman he loved after barely contributing to the war that was central to his storyline from day one. I would like to see him acknowledged as a targaryen too and a vital part of the war for the dawn, as he should have been. ofc this show is about a targaryen queen and dany is THE targaryen queen so it makes sense they want to do right by her first and foremost, but... yeah. would be nice to get something about both of them someday.

[saltywinteradult]

How is Dany is abusive to Jon?

Honest question, I’ve never given it a thought

I'm sorry this took me so long, anon, and I am really sorry for how long this post got. I had a lot of thoughts on this.

Before we begin, I'd like to point you to this compilation of Jon's reactions to Dany, which hardly paints a picture of a man who is happy and in love, as well as this post and this gifset, both pointing out the parallels between Jon's relationship with Dany and Sansa's relationship with Littlefinger, the latter being a relationship I hope most people can agree is abusive.

It's absolutely crucial to remember that in this relationship, Dany is the person with the power. She is the one with the dragons and the biggest army, and she is willing to both use and abuse that power to get her way.

Furthermore, Dany wants the North's loyalty, but the North needs her help. (The fact that it's Dany's duty as well as in her own best interest to help fight the Others is a different discussion; she doesn't seem to understand this anyway.) She has agreed to grant that help, but she could easily withdraw it if she chooses. She has more power than literally anyone else and there's simply no escaping that power imbalance - it permeates every single interaction Dany has with Jon and all the other Northerners for all of s7 and the first half of s8.

I want you to remember how Dany treats Jon on Dragonstone. His weapons and his boat are taken away immediately upon his arrival. She says Jon is "not yet" her prisoner, but 1) that line very clearly implies that she could make him her prisoner if she chooses to, and 2) how much does it really matter that Jon is "not yet" her prisoner when she's already taken away his means of defending himself or leaving the island? Remember how she later tells him "I haven't given you permission to leave." Girl, what happened to Jon not being your prisoner?

I think it's also very telling that Dany never once addresses Jon by his proper title of King in the North, even before he bends the knee. As you may recall, Dany cares a great deal about titles. She never grants Jon the same respect she demands for herself, and she likes to remind Jon that she is his Queen even during a supposedly intimate, romantic scene.

(Gif by yocalio via gameofthronesdaily)

Earlier in this scene, Dany pointed out that they could stay here in this secluded spot, away from the kingdom and its politics, and no one would find them. Yet even here, away from the rest of the world, she makes a point of referring to herself as "your Queen".

I point all of this out to illustrate that from the very beginning and throughout their relationship, Dany views Jon as a subordinate, not an equal. That is very much not a good foundation for a healthy and equal romantic relationship. Her constant expectation is that Jon will submit, obey, give things up to benefit her, and ensure that the people he has power over act the way she wants.

Case in point:

"Your sister doesn't like me. [...] She doesn't need to be my friend, but I am her Queen. If she can't respect me..."

The implication is that Sansa is doing something wrong by not liking or respecting Dany (meaning "not acting deferential enough for Dany's taste"). The fact that Dany is saying this to Jon and not to Sansa herself implies that it's Jon's responsibility to ensure that Sansa behaves acceptably. "If she can't respect me..." Then what? What exactly is she implying will be the consequences? That their romantic relationship will end? Something worse?

At this point, the North has bent the knee to Dany. As their monarch this is not an entirely unreasonable thing to ask of her subjects - but it's not a very reasonable thing for a girlfriend to ask of her boyfriend, is it? The line between Jon and Dany's political relationship as monarch and subject and their personal relationship as girlfriend and boyfriend isn't just blurred, it's practically nonexistent. To state the obvious, there is a reason we decided that absolute monarchies are bad here in the real world. There is also a reason why a boss dating a subordinate is frowned upon in the real world. Big power imbalances are a bad idea in general and in romantic relationships especially. They should at the very least be considered and navigated carefully. Dany not only fails to do so; she is only happy with her and Jon's relationship when she has power over him.

For proof, let's look at how she reacts when that power imbalance is upended by the revelation of Jon's true identity:

This revelation is a bombshell for Jon. Everything he thought he knew about his own origins turns out to be untrue. However, Dany's first and only thought is how this affects her. Her first reaction is denial and scepticism; the second is to turn cold as soon as she realises that this makes Jon a threat to her ambitions.

There's also this line:

"A secret no one in the world knew, except your brother and your best friend. Doesn't seem strange to you?"

Which implies... What, exactly? That Sam and Bran made this up? Why? Just like with Sansa in the previous scene, we see Dany questioning the actions and intentions of Jon's loved ones. Remember that.

Things escalate in episode 4:

Dany is faced with the notion that Jon might hold more political power than she thought, that they might actually be on somewhat equal footing, and this makes her unhappy.

"I want it to be the way it was between us."

Her desire is to continue their sexual relationship and to return to the previous status quo where she held more power than him and therefore didn't consider him a threat. Jon having a stronger claim to the throne than her threatens Dany's sense of her own identity and purpose, and she reacts by trying to deny and suppress this reality:

"You can say nothing, to anyone, ever! Swear your brother and Samwell Tarly to secrecy and tell no one else! Or it will take on a life of its own and you won't be able to control it or what it does to people!"

(Imagine this with the genders reversed. Yikes.)

Dany is demanding Jon keep his own identity secret from his own family. That's not a reasonable thing to ask of a person you love. Not for one second does she show any consideration for how Jon might feel or what Jon might want. It's all about her. Her expectation is that Jon suppress his own identity, his own reality, to benefit Dany's ambitions. Never once does it seem to occur to Dany that what Jon does with this secret is up to him to decide, not her. His agency is of no concern to her.

Jon: I have to tell Sansa and Arya. Dany: Sansa will want to see me gone and you on the Iron Throne. [...] She's not the girl you grew up with. Not after what she's seen, not after what they've done to her. [...] Jon: They're my family. We can live together. Dany: We can. I've just told you how.

Here we are again with Dany questioning the motives and agendas of Jon's loved ones. Now she's no longer implying but outright stating that they're working against her. What we have here is a pattern of Dany implying that Jon's loved ones are up to no good and can't be trusted. I don't need to explain why that is a dangerous and manipulative thing to do to one's partner, right?

I also want you to pay extra attention to how Emilia delivers that final line. Throughout the whole scene Dany is distraught and desperate, but at this point she turns cold and closed off with an unmistakable anger that Jon won't agree to do as she demands. It is very hard not to read a threatening undertone into that line. "Keep it secret, or else."

Before we move on to episode 5, I'd like to highlight this line, spoken by Dany to Tyrion and Varys in episode 4:

"Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps it's good the people see that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down upon them."

Let's be clear on one thing here: Cersei could choose to back down and surrender to avoid bloodshed - but, and I cannot stress this enough, so could Dany. Cersei and Dany are both being selfish and power-hungry by refusing to give up the throne in order to avoid bloodshed. But to admit that would ruin Dany's deeply rooted self-image as morally superior to her enemies. So what does she do instead? She deflects blame. She's the one with the dragons, but if she makes the sky fall down on people, as she puts it, it's not her fault. Keep that in mind.

Now for the absolute low point:

"What did I say would happen if you told your sister? [...] She betrayed your trust. She killed Varys as much as I did. This was a victory for her. Now she knows what happens when people hear the truth about you."

Okay. Varys was conspiring against Dany, which he could've chosen not to do; I guess Dany was within her rights to punish him. She still could've chosen to imprison him, or at least give him a trial. Nobody made her kill him. But as we've just seen, Dany doesn't like to accept responsibility for her own decisions. She'd rather deflect the blame onto the people who displease her.

What's more, she's not just blaming Sansa for Varys's death but Jon as well, for telling Sansa the secret in the first place - which Jon was well within his rights to do! He never agreed not to tell anyone. That wasn't up to Dany to decide in the first place. Jon did what he wanted to do and not what she wanted him to do, so now everything Dany does as a result of Jon's actions is Jon's fault? Do I even need to explain how shitty this is?

"Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don't have love here. I only have fear."

This is entirely true. She never stops to think about why Jon is more beloved in Westeros than she is, but whatever. What's important is that after this, Dany initiates a kiss and Jon rebuffs her.

(Gifs from snowsource)

"Alright then. Let it be fear."

Again, what exactly do we think she's implying here? Remember the context. During this conversation, Jon already told her "you will always be my queen". He hasn't rejected her as his queen (which at this point he damn well should), he's just rejecting her sexual advances. And yet, Dany's reaction to his personal rejection of her is to embrace "fear", which again refers to how all of Westeros sees her, not just Jon. Dany already deflected blame for her previous actions onto people who displeased her including Jon, and now she's deflecting the blame for her future actions in the same way. And we all know what she did after this, don't we? I don't know how the line "let it be fear" can mean anything other than "you rejected me and that's why I'm going to embrace being feared, so whatever I do now in the name of being feared is really your fault. Look what you made me do." If that isn't abuse, I don't know what is.

[adreamf-spring]

I was thinking about GOT season 8 and how crazy blatant clearrrr they were with showing that Jon doesn't love Daenerys, like, they didn't even bother trying at least. Like, the comparison with Jorah is crazy. Jorah literally died to protect her, because he loved her, meanwhile not only Jon couldn't bother to do that he didn't think twice to sacrifice her for Sansa's sake. They were crazy for that

[rise-my-angel]

Jon Snow, the man who thought burning a man alive was so utterly cruel and inhumane, very publically defied a Kings orders in front of him, and everyone else in attendance, by showing Mance Rayder mercy and shooting an arrow into his heart before the fire could start to engulf him.

Yes I understand why he'd side with miss "I literally dream about my enemies dying screaming as I burn them alive on mass".

Totally justified, the man whose uncle and grandfather were also burned alive, would ever side with the burns alive with flying flame thrower queen whose father was the one who burned his uncle and grandfather alive.

I'm sure Brandon and Rickard Starks deaths had absolutely no impact on the manner in which Jon grew up as someone who thinks burning people alive is a monstrous way to execute someone. I'm sure it doesn't greatly bother him to watch people die the way his uncle and grandfather were murdered.

But hes got secret targ blood so who cares.

[minmeemaw]

For ruining Jon & Dany and now Rhaeneyra & Daemon, dear HBO:

[lavenderfroggy]

Jon did not gaf😭

[millennial-crone-ao3]

The thing about Jon and Daenerys is:

Lust is not love.

So duty didn't die.

And duty sits right between family and honour in a Tully's eyes.

[lovedreamer11]

Jonerys and Daemyra are my favorite couples in the asoiaf universe

And they were both destroyed by the HBO 😭

[amaltheas-garden]

Every Jonerys theory acts like it's stumbled onto something so profound when like half the evidence is the most basic, boring ass visual parallels (dark hair/white hair, night/day, fire/ice, blue/red), as though those aren't the EASIEST parallels to grasp onto and describe like 90% of popular het ships (most of which didn't become canon). Reylo, Zutara, Darklina, Saurondriel, anything by sjm, etc. It doesn't make a ship bad, per se, just a bit obvious for me to think grrm would go for it.

[agentrouka-blog]

GRRM hates fanfic and has already shut down Sansa/Sandor and Jon/Arya shippers before, why do you think he never denied Jon/Dany?

The former two pairings are comparatively easy to dismiss, I imagine, because they are pretty out there as far as probability goes. He's not giving anything away by being fairly unambiguous about rejecting the option. It really isn't a credible line of speculation.

Outright denying the very possibility of Dany and Jon as love interests, on the other hand, does take away from the game of "see with your eyes" and unreliable narrators that he has set up from the beginning. There's still plenty of people who will not believe Dany is on a villain arc because her own POV obviously portrays her as the hero of her own story, surrounded by otherwise a sycophant like Barristan who doesn't question her at all, or a figure set up to be more obviously unreliable in his own way, naive and uncertain Quentyn, whom Dany considers the "sun's son". Nothing explicitly hinders people from falling for her delusions if they aren't inclined to critical thinking. Which is how he challenges the reader.

An outright denial of the classic expectation for a female heroine, of a romantic entanglement with the elligible hero, would really shake that up because GRRM hasn't presented other credible attractive options on that front in Westeros, so if genuine romance is not in Dany's future at all... what is she working towards, thematically?

He'd be spoiling his own set-up.

He also hasn't outright denied Jonsa, btw. Just refused to comment.

[esther-dot]

But why do you think jonsa wasn’t more foreshadowed if they’re the main romantic pairing?

Well, I think we have comparable foreshadowing, often as a positive contrast to Jonerys foreshadowing which the entire fandom believes is the big romance of the series, so I’m gonna challenge your premise and argue that it isn't the lack of foreshadowing for Jonsa that you're noticing, but the fandom's refusal to accept it. I believe that's because Jonsa is a threat to their priors (Jon and Dany are the heroes, they will meet, fall in love, and defeat the Others together, something that is impossible to believe when Martin says things like this) rather than it being a fair evaluation of the existence or merit of our foreshadowing.

Below I'll point out a few kinds of foreshadowing/examples and present the similar Jonsa version so you can see what I mean.

The premise for Jonerys seems to be that every similarity in their arcs is a parallel, but they are actually contrasts if you read closely (fedonciadale's post about that), and Sansa too has parallels with Jon as you can see in @thewindsofwolves's beautiful parallel series. Their similar journeys are also captured in this gifset and this gorgeous art, and it is certainly intentional, as Sansa seems to pattern Alayne in part on Jon ie we're being told she's getting to experience parts of his life. And, unlike Dany whose plan to conquer Westeros puts her at odds with the Starks, Sansa and Jon are written as having the same, very simple, compatible dream,

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya. (ASOS, Sansa II) I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. (ASOS, Jon XII)

If we're looking for a romance, foreshadowing that is about a personal relationship, this seems pertinent? And then there's Jon's desire to rebuild Winterfell, and the scene of Sansa literally building it out of snow:

Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. (ASOS, Jon XII) The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. (ASOS, Sansa VII)

Those two, back-to-back chapters, are absolutely full of parallels. They share a dream, and upon their reunion, will have a common purpose. I'll also link my post about how Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion has connections to Jon's relationship with Ygritte, and @stormcloudrising's post about the similarities between the interactions of Sansa and the Hound & Jon and Ygritte. There are tons of these, but you get the idea. If we're looking for parallels between experiences, we have them.

Now, a popular method of finding foreshadowing is chapter order, but Jonsa has that too. Here's a 2018 post by @julibf that talks a bit about it, and @istumpysk's ASOS recap talks about that here and here.

There are two moments I've seen Jonerys shippers point to quite often as foreshadowing. Jon and the moon, Dany and the wolf. But the thing is, Sansa is the sun, and one of the "Jonerys" (Jon and the moon) passages has Jon running away from the moon to the cave with the sun (fedonciadale's post about that). The wolf moment also has a Jonsa contrast:

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep. (ADWD, Daenerys X) All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains. (AFFC, Alayne II)

Far be it from me to say that Dany hearing a wolf but being lost to her desires and Sansa hearing a wolf, a ghost wolf, and finding it an overwhelming presence (mountain) means something, but if one does, the other does too. And if we're reading them both as foreshadowing, I think there are some reasonable, and unreasonable conclusions to draw from them. So, you can see why imo the fandom employs a double standard in how they weigh the merits of foreshadowing and interpret one as nonexistent and the other as real and positive.

Another oft referenced bit is Dany's vision of the blue flower and the dream of the shadowy lover, so I'll link some analysis of those that I think is far more...uh, shall I say, contextualized. There are @agentrouka-blog's posts on Winter Roses here and here, and her tag for it if you're interested in really exploring it thoroughly. There’s fedoncidale's post about it, her post about the shadowy lover, and @ladyofasoiaf's spec about how the shadow lover foreshadowing is actually Euron.

Oh, and I almost forgot Val who I've seen brought into the picture as foreshadowing for Dany, but there's a funny thing with her hair which again, if we're gonna look at her hair color and say she's a stand-in for Dany, we should be able to look at it and say, ok, but that means over here she's a stand-in for Sansa, and besides, the connotations for Jonerys there are very bad as discovered by @wintersnow39.

Basically, I don't think there's a lack of foreshadowing, I think there's simply a bias in the fandom that rejects Jonsa foreshadowing while happily accepting incredibly similar foreshadowing for other couples.

[saltywinteradult]

jon*rys shippers be like ”you hate jon*rys for being incest but then you ship jonsa!!! hypocrite!!!” actually i hate jon*rys because dany is abusive to jon and a tyrant in the making. hope that helps

[loredropper]

Me when somebody dislikes Jonerys because it’s incest and then says Jonsa is the best ship: 🤨

[rise-my-angel]

You know the "haha it's the mens turn to be treated like a whore or an object" rhetoric is a lot less funny when you consider that the two most significant male characters in this fandom getting this treatment were both male rape victims at the hands of female perpetrators.