#anti batfamily fans

[gonnalosemydougdimmadomedamnmind]

It's literally impossible to read bat fanfiction because it's all based off those ridiculous fanon tropes that spread like crazy and people take as fucking biblical!!!!! Dick was never a jerk to Jason when he was Robin- they got along because Dick is mature as hell and in one retelling- Jason was a jerk to him!! And when he came back as Red Hood he had literally not a single damn reason to treat Dick like shit! Not a damn one! But he did, didn't he? Cause he's the fucking asshole! How dare you make Dick grovel towards that bastard! Dick has only ever tried to help him! Reached out during his Batman run, over and over! Also- Dick never put Jason in Arkham with Joker just a few cells down???? What the fuck! The Joker and all those other fuckers had been broken out of Arkham by Black Mask already for like the whole run??? Jason went to Arkham after losing to Dick, and Gordon put him in there because One he fucking deserved it, Two the literal circumstances?? And at that point!! Arkham was fucking rehabilitated itself!! By Dick!!! Because Bruce had him go undercover there for real, and Dick was actually tortured there before he got out!! So Dick put in the work to get that shit in order to actually help people!!

Dick never chose Damian over Tim- Tim refused to engage with him over his grief, shut him out, and left of his own devices! He never told Dick his suspicions on why Bruce was alive, never! And Tim is not the one to bring Bruce back either, there's a whole team at that point! Dick learns Bruce is alive through tossing his 'dead' body into a pit and the body comes to life as a zombie. Tim didn't tell him shit! Tim is also not a little crybaby- Damian cutting his line was a fucking blip on the page, he was momentarily shocked, that was it! He put Damian on his Hit List, which is why Damian cut his line. And his first attempt at "murder" is just pushing Tim off the dinosaur statue in the cave, he didn't go all assassin on him! Also Dick wasn't even there the first incident and wasn't told about the second incident. Alfred is the one who gave Damian Robin and Dick accepted him because he saw that Damian needed help! He needed guidance! He didn't fucking fire Tim the way Bruce fired him, and fuck all of you for thinking that Tim or Jason or fucking anyone has more right over Robin than Dick Fucking Grayson! He tried to promote Tim and Tim walked off. How dare yall make Dick fucking grovel towards that bastard!!!

Jason did try to kill all three of them!! Why does everyone just gloss over that like what the fuck??? Why does he get a pass for every shitty thing he's done??? "Bad writing" stfu this is the same dude that without hesitation kills random criminals, people who deal drugs, do you know how many random ass people deal drugs??? Jason doesn't give a single shit about being his own type of hero or saving Gotham his own way, nor do the people think of him as their savior!! Are you people fucking delusional?? I saw a post that said citizens would trust Jason over CASS and I cannot Believe the hallucinations yall are seeing???

It is literally downright impossible to find fics about Dick or Damian or Cass or fucking any of them that doesn't include these literal bullshit fanon takes!!! It's impossible!!! This fandom sucks!!!! You don't even need to go buy the comics, all these popular takes have been debunked right here on tumblr!!!! Also Dick can do literally everything!! He's hypercompetent as hell, die mad about it!! Jason doesn't like Wonder Woman???? Where the fuck did that come from??? Wayne Family Adventures is not real!!! Those people could not BE more out of character!!! Look at Bruce for crying out loud!!! Yall know that man ain't act like that!

Edit: leaving this here in case anyone wonders what my hot take is towards this question I was asked: "have you considered tho, that fanon is more fun..."

Well of course fanon is more fun if you're a fan of Jason or Tim. Fanon actively caters towards those two pasty white boys. Fanon actively shits on Dick and Damian though. And for Dick? He literally never did that shit! It is all made up! It's literal character assassination?? But by the fans?? And for Damian? He was 10!!! He grew up as an assassin! He was actively trying to grow with Dick's help! How can yall see him as the bad guy?? And not the literal bad guy, (Jason), and the 17 teen year old who literally fought him back btw, (Tim), like old boy did not act victimized the way you people portray. And Jesus for Cass? Cass is just a prop in fanon. So what exactly about this should be fun to me? Like seriously.

[megaaceofspades]

for pride month they should kill tim drake. in this essay i summarize the damages the tim drake centricity of current batman and comic runs has done to the canon of DC-

[shyjusticewarrior]

And if I said the term "fanon" has done irreparable harm to comic fandom, specifically bat fandom? 👀

Not "fanon" the thing, the term. If you think the former you are part of the problem.

[annah-kitathryne]

I don't trust Batfamily fans who will hate everything about one character all the time always. They refuse to admit that the character does anything good for the story, or has a valuable asset to whatever group, team, person, or case that they are working on.

I think a healthy dislike is okay. Everyone who has ever talked to me knows I'm pretty critical of Bruce. Everyone on Tumblr who has read any of my posts knows that Jason annoys me.

However, they are still compelling characters who can be really interesting narrative and character wise. I actually think Jason can be an interesting character to use in stories.

That being said, everyone should be critical about their favourites. I follow the anti-Tim Drake tag for a reason. Because one it makes me ask the question, "Is my perception of Tim in rose coloured glasses, does what the person says have any basis in canon, and is this information i should think over or more on from?" It also keeps my critical thinking skills up, and my ability to memorize information and peice together said information.

That also being said Anti Tags for all the Batfam is filled with mysogeny, racism, classism, homophobia, and ablism.

[Correction: some of the main anti tags aren't as bad anymore. Hope they stay that way. Avoid Redit it can be really bad.]

Selfishly it makes me feel better about my ability to consume and create media. Because I'm at least better than the bare minimum.

Anyway, here's the thing. Stop being crazy stans who can't take a single criticism and stop being crazy antis who can't take a single criticism. Learn to balance the adoration and dislike.

Please read source material before you say fuck canon, because how do you know what to change if you have never read the material before. You wouldn't want someone who had never learned to fix or handle a car to suddenly come in and try to upgrade it for you?

Source material is important. Don't know where to start. Click the search bar and type out

[favourite character] reading list

If it doesn't appear on Tumblr click the search engine you use [Firefox, Google, internet explorer, safari, bingo, yahoo etc.] And type the same thing.

[local-limebug]

jason todd has so many underrated canon love interests. essence, isabel, artemis, and rose are all characters i love with him. like those are good ships. why is everyone ignoring them?

[notfeelingthyaster]

i've started seeing mc bernard fanfics and even posts w/ the detriment of tim (making him a cheater, or neglectful, or abusive, even) and i'm very confused about the way people are latching on to a two dimensional love interest and using his only canonnical relevance - his romantic interest - as an villain or an enemy, in detriment of his own characterization

like ig you can do anything in fanfic/hcs, idc, it's just really weird for me personally, bc bernard dowd has the depth of a rain puddle, i honestly don't see what people latch to

[theflashjaygarrick]

Cassandra Cain is groundbreaking as a character because she wasn’t invented as a supporting character to a white man but her own protagonist. Sure, in the broader DC universe she was a part of the Batfamily but almost immediately she was given a solo ongoing where she was the titular figure. Batman was made a recurring side character in her own narrative. This is super rare in big 2 superhero comics. Most of the time women (especially women of colour) are introduced as a supporting character for a male character story, or as part of a white male dominated team, before organically gaining the popularity to ‘earn’ her a spinoff.

But with Cass they trusted that this stubborn, neurodivergent, Asian teenage girl was badass and compelling enough as a superhero to sustain her own solo series. And you know what? They were right. batgirl 2000 (her original run) is the first and longest individual batgirl run in DC comics history. Comic readers loved her.

And this only was possible because of a diverse writers room with a drive to push creative boundaries and a willingness to fight with editorial if necessary. Joe Illidge (the first black editor for Batman) recalled that the Bat creative team had to fight to have a non-white Batgirl. But they fought for it, they won, and Cass demonstrated that risks and moves towards more diverse comics pays off. And the fact that after countless attempts to silence her, ignore her fans, and pretend she doesn’t exist, Cass is back with a vengeance and a new solo only further proves they were right. Despite what the anti-woke crowd may cry bold, progressive storytelling can and does work, especially when the creative team believes in the character and plot and the people with the money let them do their thing.

[stealingyourbones]

Why does DC hate Jason Todd so much??? He's literally Babey!!! 🥺

You probably aren’t me expecting to respond to this factually but fuck it here we go. Because he was a little rat fuck who replaced their favorite Robin character for a shitty carbon copy.

I wasn’t in the comic scene, or alive, when that happened in comics, but Jason originally was a carbon copy of Dick. He grew up in a circus, was in an acrobatic troupe called the Flying Todd’s, and his parents died by the hands of Two-Face.

The next Crisis had his backstory changed but the fans still viewed him as the bad Walmart version of Robin.

(For the readers:)He was a shitty replacement for Dick Grayson that had been Robin for so long and readers didn’t like the new guy taking over the role.

He doesn’t have a memorable Robin stand-alone series, he was uncharacteristically ruthless for a robin, he replaced Dick and didn’t have any of the Grayson charm that made Robin so loveable, he was arrogant at times and bashed in general. People wanted Dick. Not this other guy.

Nowadays why they hate him?

Simple and yet layered reason:

He went from a very wonderful villain in the comics and got later boiled down to an anti hero. Most people I know that dislike Jason now preferred his villain arc. I prefer it too honestly but if we didn’t have anti hero Jason, we wouldn’t have the interactions he has with the batfamily at all and I really enjoy those scenes in the comics.

His characterization is all over too. He goes from absolutely batshit insane in some comics to angsty ninja boy, to essentially a little bit feistier Ric Grayson (I’m so sorry it’s my take DC fans please don’t fight me).

Also, his death was a BIG thing in comics and him coming back ruined the meaning behind his death.

Back in the day there were three deaths in comics that always happened and never changed. They were deaths that grew other characters around them. Those three were:

- Bucky Barnes from Captain America

- Jason Todd from Batman

- Uncle Ben from Spider-Man

Their deaths hold major stepping stones to character arc changes and how the main character acted for the rest of the comics. They were always the main characters greatest tragedy and a core part of their lore.

Of course two of these are now changed. Bucky Barnes is back as the Winter Soldier and Jason is back as Red Hood.

But that death was sacred for a while. For 20 years he was dead. He was Batman’s greatest tragedy. You did not fuck with Batman’s greatest sorrow. And they did it after (incel) Superman Prime punched the universe so hard Jason Todd came back to life.

Additionally, lots of comic writers just don’t fucking want to deal with him. Same with Damian I feel like. They throw both under the bus because they’d rather be writing other characters.

Most of this is my observations but if anyone else has any other comments to add feel free.

[incorrectbatfam]

Hello! While scrolling between random hurt/comfort fica I stumbled into a batfamily one and decided to give it a shot and now I am curious about this fandom! Never read any dc/marvel comic and watched maybe a couple of superhero movies so I have basically 0 knowledge about batman except that Robin is his apprentice but also apparently there's multiple Robins??

Can I have a general fandom/family introduction? I'm very confused but also really curious since I'm an avid found family enjoyer :)

What the heck is this fandom?

If you're reading this, you probably either a) want to get into comics but aren’t sure where to start or b) found yourself plopped in the middle and don't know what's going on.

DC Comics encompasses a wide range of characters and storylines with varying levels of popularity, and is home to some of the most iconic figures like Superman and Wonder Woman. What often happens in the DC and Marvel fandoms is that rather than trying to engage with everything, many fans will have a certain subset of content that they focus on. Sometimes it's a single character, sometimes it's a team like the Justice League, or sometimes it's a superhero family unit such as the Flash Family.

This blog primarily focuses on the batfamily, which is the group of characters that operate as Gotham City vigilantes centered around Batman. Some are legally/biologically related, some aren't. Generally speaking, the batfamily fandom is one of the larger subgroups within the DC fandom because so many of the comics revolve around these characters.

Who is Batman?

Are you living under a rock

Batman, AKA Bruce Wayne, begins with the infamous tragic origin where his parents were shot dead in an alleyway when he was 8, leaving him an orphan to be raised by his butler/surrogate father figure, Alfred Pennyworth. Once Bruce got a little older, he donned the costume to deal with criminals directly and bring justice to the city.

His civilian identity is Bruce Wayne, the (and I say this begrudgingly) billionaire CEO of his family's company, Wayne Enterprises. The company makes a little of everything and keeps Gotham afloat with job creation and philanthropy. Nothing unethical about one rich guy running an entire city.

His alter ego is Batman, and he uses his wit and extensive training to fight an array of both petty criminals as well as big-name villains like the Joker, the Riddler, Two-Face and more (collectively known as the Gotham Rogues gallery).

NOTE: some former villains, like Harley Quinn, have been rebranded as anti-heroes.

Batman operates out of a hidden cave (yes, a literal cave) under Wayne Manor known as the Batcave. This is where he keeps all sorts of high-tech paraphanalia, including his Batmobile, bat-plane, batarangs (bat boomerangs), and a powerful computer known as—you guessed it—the Batcomputer.

Batman's primary love interest is a former villain known as Catwoman, AKA Selina Kyle, who is a master thief. (Her backstory includes growing up with an abusive father and turning to stealing for survival.) She's since reformed and has been indicted into the Justice League. They're really cute if you don't think about how they're technically two furries who roleplay as cops and robbers.

NOTE: in an alternate timeline, Bruce dies as a child in that alley as Thomas Wayne becomes Batman while Martha Wayne becomes the Joker.

Okay, what about... Robin? Robins?

There's a lot to unpack here.

The OG Robin is Dick Grayson. Yes, we still call him Dick in the year 2022. He was a child acrobat who was part of a trio, The Flying Graysons, with his parents, John and Mary, in a traveling circus called Haly's Circus. Haly's stopped in Gotham, where a crime boss named Tony Zucco tried to get them to pay protection money. When Haly refused, Zucco sabotaged the trapezes and Dick's parents fell to their deaths. Bruce was at that show and because Orphans Unite or whatnot, he takes little Dick under his wing as a ward (not legally adopted at this point, Bruce is in his early to mid 20s). Dick joins Batman's crusade as the colorful pantsless sidekick known as Robin. As Robin, he also became the leader of what would eventually be a multigenerational superhero team known as the Teen Titans.

The second Robin is Jason Todd. He grew up in Gotham's notorious Crime Alley, where his mother, Catherine, was a substance user and his father, Willis, was an overall piece of garbage. After his father goes to jail and his mother dies of an overdose, Jason is essentially an orphan left to fend for himself on the streets. His run-in with Batman happens when he tries to steal to Batmobile tires to sell, and instead of getting punished, he gets adopted. Legally, this time. So while Dick is the oldest, Jason is Bruce's first kid. Jason takes on the Robin mantle and fights crime, yada yada. What he's well-known for is his death, where he set out to Ethiopia to find his biological mother, Sheila Haywood, and is killed by the Joker. Then Superman breaks reality and Jason comes back to life, spends some time with the League of Assassins, and gets rebranded as a crime lord/anti-hero with a hell of a grudge against Bruce for not avenging him.

While Jason was dead, we get our third Robin and the first one with pants: Tim Drake. Tim is actually Bruce's neighbor (the way rich people can be neighbors with spaced-out properties). He grew up with wealthy but neglectful parents, Janet and Jack Drake, who often left Tim home alone as a small child while they went on their archeology expeditions. Tim takes an interest in the Gotham vigilantes and sets out to follow them around and gather evidence to figure out who they are. Eventually, he deduces Bruce, Dick, and Jason's identities by some moves unique to the Flying Graysons. Then, Tim basically blackmails Bruce into letting him be Robin and has his own teenage superhero team called Young Justice. After the Robin title is taken away from him, he becomes Red Robin (yes, like the restaurant chain) and while everyone thinks Batman is dead during this time, Tim is the only one who believes otherwise. Also, his mom drinks poison, dad is killed by a boomerang, best friend is killed by an evil clone, other best friend is also killed by an evil clone, girlfriend dies (see below), assassins steal his spleen, and now he's bisexual and dating a boy who creates conspiracy theories.

NOTE: In an alternate timeline, Carrie Kelley becomes the third Robin.

Robin #4 is Stephanie Brown. She actually didn't become Robin until well into her vigilante career. She actually made a name for herself as Spoiler with the purpose of taking down her father, a D-list Gotham villain known as Cluemaster. Similar to everyone in this franchise, her childhood wasn't ideal as her father was always up to criminal activities and her mother worked a lot as well as (in some versions) used drugs. She later becomes the fifth Batgirl and then Robin before her death in the 2005 War Games comics, where she is killed when she seeks out a villain against Batman's orders. She then returns from the dead and goes back to being Spoiler. She also dated Tim and was a fairly long-running relationship before they broke up. She also had a teen pregnancy at one point (not by Tim) and had a daughter that she put up for adoption.

Robin #5 is Damian Wayne, the biological son of Bruce Wayne and Talia Al Ghul (daughter to Ra's Al Ghul, leader of a villainous organization known as the League of Assassins). Damian was raised in the League of Assassins for the first half of his childhood, where he was trained to be the heir to Ra's Al Ghul's empire. Talia brought him to Bruce when he was ~10 to refine his skills with Batman. However, that kind of goes awry when Bruce fakes his death and Damian is raised by Dick instead. Damian also becomes a Teen Titans leader as well as forms a friendship with Jon Kent, son of Superman (please read Super Sons, it's adorable). Damian is then killed by his oversized evil clone and is brought back to life on the planet Apokolips (no one stays dead istg).

Duke Thomas's relationship with the Robin mantle is a little more complicated. Duke first shows up as a really intelligent kid who solves one of the Riddler's puzzles. Later on, he becomes the leader (aided by Alfred Pennyworth) of a group of teenage vigilantes known as We Are Robin, who helped take care of Gotham crime while Batman was missing. His parents were, for a lack of a better term, disabled after one of the Joker's gas attacks (seriously, someone euthanize this clown). Bruce takes Duke under his wing and Duke rebrands himself as the Signal. He's unique from other Gotham heroes in a couple aspects: 1) he fights crime in the daytime instead of night and 2) he has photokinetic superpowers. (He's also dating one of the We Are Robins members, Izzy Ortiz.)

What about the others, like Batwoman and Batgirl?

Similar to Robin, Batgirl is a title held by multiple people. The first Batgirl was Bette Kane (who is now Flamebird), but the most well-known one was the second one, Barbara Gordon. Barbara (Babs for short) is the daughter of Gotham police commissioner Jim Gordon. Inspired by other Gotham heroes, she became Batgirl behind her parents' back and worked in tandem with Bruce and Dick, forming a relationship with Dick along the way. She became a quadriplegic after getting shot by the Joker but refused to step down from the field, instead using her intelligence and technological capabilities to surveil and provide intel under a new moniker, Oracle. She also has her own team, the Birds of Prey, which includes people like Huntress and Black Canary.

After Barbara, the next Batgirl is Cassandra Cain (who is also Bruce's only legal daughter in the main continuity). She is the daughter of David Cain and an assassin known as Lady Shiva. Cass was raised by David within the League of Assassins and trained to be a fighting machine, similar to Damian. She was raised in isolation without speech or literacy, but can read body language really well. Her first kill was when she was 8, and that traumatized her so much that she ran away, wandering around until eventually reaching Gotham and becoming both Bruce and Barbara's ward. She holds other titles like Black Bat along the way but is most known as Orphan. She also befriends Stephanie, had a short relationship with Superboy (Conner Kent) and, like half the people here, dies and comes back. Depending on who you talk to, some people keep her lack of speech, some have her speaking, and some prefer an in-between.

Stephanie was Batgirl after Cass. See above.

Kate Kane is Batwoman and Bruce Wayne's cousin. She grew up similarly wealthy in a high-level military family, often moving around as a child. Her twin sister and mother were killed in a terrorist attack in Belgium, leaving her father to raise her. She got into West Point military academy but was expelled in her final year after coming out as lesbian under the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. After that, she spent a year on an island civilization before returning to Gotham. After Batman saved her from a mugging, Kate bought some equipment on the black market and trained herself to become Batwoman. Also, we as a fandom don't talk about her flamethrower gloves enough.

NOTE: in an alternate timeline, Carrie Kelley was also Batgirl and Batwoman.

Harper Row is Bluebird, and similar to Batwoman, she is a mostly independent Gotham hero who was inspired by Batman. Growing up, Harper often had to take care of things like household repairs and look after her younger brother, Cullen, because their father was abusive and didn't do anything for them. Eventually, she sought emancipation and got them out of there, but things still weren't easy. She went to college, but had to drop out and get a job in order to provide for her and her brother. She became Bluebird after Batman saved her and Cullen, engineering her own weapons like a giant taser. Fun fact: she's bi and her brother is gay.

This is still really confusing. Who's who right now?

Canon sucks so here's what the fandom largely know them as:

Bruce is Batman. He might have some suit modifications or occasionally pilot a giant bat robot, but he's Batman

Dick is Nightwing. He took over as Batman for a short period of time, but after Bruce returned, he went back to being Nightwing we don't talk about Ric

Jason is Red Hood. That was actually the Joker's previous title but now Jason holds it

Tim is... usually Robin or Red Robin, it kinda depends on context. Canonically he's back to being Robin now, but a lot of us still refer to him as Red Robin

Damian is Robin. He had the alias Redbird at one point but everyone calls him Robin

Duke is the Signal. Again, there were some alias changes (like Lark) but he's the Signal around here

Stephanie is Spoiler, but again, it depends on context

Cassandra is usually referred to as Orphan, but you'll occasionally see Batgirl or Black Bat depending on who you talk to

Barbara was rehashed as Batgirl in recent canon but we all hate the disability erasure so you'll see a lot of us still call her Oracle

Harper is Bluebird. I don't recall her having any other titles. Her brother isn't a vigilante

Selina (yes, she's part of the batfamily) is Catwoman

Alfred is... Alfred. On the field he goes by Agent A and his previous spy career often comes in handy

This isn't the sum of it. There are a whole bunch of other bat characters (Bette Kane, Luke Fox, Jean-Paul Valley, Helena Bertinelli, Terry McGinnis, etc.) that I didn't get into here partly because I don't focus on them as much and partly because of space. I also didn't get into all the lore for characters I did explain, like Dick's police career or other teams/relationships. There are also some inconsistencies between different timelines and reboots.

I encourage you to explore beyond what I presented with other heroes and villains since I know Batman isn't for everyone. I also encourage you to explore the comics, talk to people, and figure out for yourself what characters or storylines best fit you. Don't be afraid to take your time, either. We've been here nearly a century. We're not going anywhere.

[gonnalosemydougdimmadomedamnmind]

Batfanon fans really just be saying shit. Like whatever they wanna say. They ain't even talking about the actual characters, just like the way they look and slap on some tropes! No thoughts! No character analysis based on the actual canon! Just fucking soundbites. Whatever fits your headcanon is suddenly facts they'll die on until they can't pull up any evidence! Then its all "why can't i enjoy what I want". Well why can't you admit you don't like the actual characters? Why else would they be unrecognizable from canon? I'll never understand how you can claim to be a fan of a character but know nothing about them or change everything about them. What are you a fan of then?? The saddest part is that this fandom is so big and pushy, the shit bleeds into everything.

[artilumi]

maybe thisbis a hot take but dc/batfamily comic fans are just so anti-whimsy, who CARES if wfa is kinda out of character? do u want to be miserable all the time? WHO CARES that ppl have hcs and stuff that arent 100% accurate to the comics like please go outside

im a comic fan also but the most hardcore ppl are so aggressive, mean and sad ngl

also these comics are 80-90 years old, there have been so many versions canon and whatever over all these years that i fear its not that big of a deal if someone wants to pretend bruce didnt almost decapitate jason, i feel like as ling as what u adopt as truth isnt harmful or prejudiced it really fr doesn’t matter that much that we have to theow tantrums on the internet abt it

thank u for coming tk my ted talk

[shyjusticewarrior]

Don't know how to break it to life-long comic fans, but the rest of us do in fact get told what to do by others in this hobby.

[televisionlassie]

The reason I find Jason to be boring is because people are so scared to hold him accountable. You can’t claim to like anti-hero’s or claim that Jason is an anti-hero if you’re going to excuse everything that makes him an ANTI-hero.

There is no doubt in my mind that I would like him a whole lot more if people accepted him as a character that does bad things. I understand he has trauma and his own reasons but trauma is only an explanation, not an excuse. While I like consuming content of the batfamily being a family, when it’s not based in pretty much an entirely different universe it doesn’t make any sense.

Pretty much all of the batfamily (except Bruce because he’s can actually be pretty awful to Jason) has reasons to hate or be mad at Jason.

Jason went out in a Nightwing outfit and killed people to try and ruin Dick’s image, and all the shit he’s done to Dicks other siblings. You really think Dick would just be cool with the fact that Jason beat one of his little brothers and shot another one?

Cass has a moral code probably stricter than Batman, she would HATE Jason for killing. And again same thing with the siblings.

Tim I just don’t understand why he would ever forgive Jason. Jason beat the absolute shit out of him, plus you gotta admit that guy is too much of a cocky bitch to ever just forgive and forget

Unfortunately I can’t say much about Steph as I can’t think of a single time where they actually interacted in canon. But I don’t think she would be too fond of the guy who beat up her best friend and shot Damian.

Duke I think has had one personal interaction with Jason and while it wasn’t too friendly I don’t think he would hold that big of a grudge.

Damian I think would be more understanding but it’s hard to forget how he was shot by Jason and had to have his SPINE replaced because of Jason.

I’m not trying to hate on Jason, he honestly makes me sad because he is filled with wasted potential. It’s not even that they never make him do bad things, it’s that there’s never any lasting consequences.

Many times when I see people who hate on Jason they bring in the death penalty argument, which as much as I hate and believe is stupid, still has some tiny bit of validity. The reason it sucks is because the world of DC comics is not even remotely similar to our real life. Criminals in real life don’t have plant powers or convoluted plans to distribute their weird ass poisonous gas. If they did, they wouldn’t even spend a night in jail because they would be shot on the spot. If Jason did just kill these types of criminals, then he would not be considered an anti-hero, just a hero. But that’s the thing, Jason doesn’t just kill the Joker, or the Riddler or any of the Rogues, he kills the type of criminals we would see in our real lives. THAT is where the validity lies in that argument, it’s not just that Jason is killing supervillains but that he is killing the type of people that we are fighting against the death penalty for. Obviously this argument means nothing to you if you are pro-death penalty but I just wanted to explain.

Jason would be so interesting if he was treated like the character he is supposed to be. A young traumatized person who does bad things for the right reasons but still has to face the consequences.

And if people really want to give him a character arc where he eventually stops killing, it shouldn’t just be he gets tried of killing or tired of arguing with Bruce, but that he sees how his way of crime-fighting can do more harm than good.

It’s just so frustrating to see how people just act accept anti-heros for what they are. It like people are so scared of making or admitting a character to be immoral, that they just erase the consequences of their bad actions to make it excusable.

Anyways, thank you for coming to my rant, Jason Todd fans this wasn’t me hating on your babygirl, I’m trying to help you.

[roseworth]

hey <3 heres what i think of every scene that rosenberg has written with rose

disclaimer: most of this is me being very nitpicky. rose was a side character for all of these appearances so obv i understand that its not gonna be perfect characterization. but i rly like talking about rose characterization so this is just me pulling apart her appearances for fun <3

ok lets go

overall

i LOVE the jason & rose dynamic. im not much of a jayrose fan but since its happening im glad that its like this. i love that its so much "rose is excessively horny and jason is giving her nothing" bc its so in character for both of them. shes fucking with him and he does not know how to reciprocate. they r so sillies

HOWEVER. rose would not just hang around him like shes doing. as much as i like that dynamic i feel like he also has to at least sometimes show that hes. you know. interested in having her around. shes just kinda tagging along and i wish there was a reason why she would put up with him never giving her anything, especially since she has a tendency to leave at the first sign of not being wanted

on a completely different note, im a little disappointed that shes wearing her old costume instead of the new one she has in btbatb/kt ravager. i appreciate that shes still drawn like an adult but i rly like her new costume so im sad that she doesnt have it

man who stopped laughing #9

STRONG start. beats up a bunch of cops, then right after she appears she does her stupid flirting thing then immediately says that she doesnt want to associate with the batfamily. queen.

not to mention right before this is my fav failgirl moment where she goes through her whole plan to crash the car and break jason out of prison. then just goes up and knocks on the door

flips the car over then walks up and says "hey its the fire department. open up" and not a single person believes her. i love her

lesbian rose crumbs <3 i still choose to believe shes talking about cass here idc. shes so silly and this was a cute lil panel

so yeah. she was on one page of this issue but that one page was great and i love her

mwsl #10

shes so lame <3 i talked about this moment a lot when this issue first released but i love it. "somebody had all the fun without us" upon finding a body, then realizing someone else was there and just. starts shooting. she doesnt hit anything. she doesnt even know where the other person is.

my big problem here is that she does not carry a gun and pretty much never uses guns. honestly now that im thinking about it this is one of the only times shes ever used a gun on panel (the other times i can think of being: shooting wade off a cliff after her mom died, shooting starfire in n52 outlaws (but new 52 rose barely even counts as rose), and using deathstroke's gun when she was pretending to be him in deathstroke 2016)

shes not anti-gun or anything but it still bothers me just a little that suddenly she has a gun (hence why i fully believe she stole jasons gun <3)

if i want to nitpick, kate should not have been able to hit her. rose should've seen she was coming wayyy before (bc precog) and she wouldnt be knocked down from one hit. i fear we are headed down a path of her becoming jasons incompetent girlfriend but i wont be too dramatic about her getting hit one (1) time

but other than that i thought this was a fun moment of rose getting hit then jason immediately fighting the person that hit her. toxic girlbesties fr

then also her needing to be held back after she gets up so she doesnt start attacking the person thats helping them <3 i love her

mwsl #11

this is a nice issue for her just because in true rose tradition she LOVES to have homoerotic fights with every other female character she interacts with. the kate & rose dynamic was soooo fun i love it when shes mean to people for no reason <3

i did not like this part though. i feel like there are a lot of implications about rose here that are unfair to her character & her place in the dcu. i'll meet the book on its own terms and say that we're only talking about post-52 rose (blah blah everything's canon rn but this book is very clearly not using pre-52 rose lore) but even then? theres no real reason for her to be ducking superheroes or for superheroes to keep an eye on her. shes not a villain or even much of a killer, the fact that shes "staying off the radars" of good guys doesnt make much sense. and the fact that kate knows her and "studies" her (fellas is it gay to study another woman despite never meeting her) implies that rose is like. a threat. shes just kind of around there is no reason kate should know her like that

cute moment! but also it bothers me. i think its fun that she refused to go since its not her fight and she doesnt want to get into a joker mess. HOWEVER. when has she ever in her life passed up an opportunity to get involved in someone elses problem. to me she wouldnt have even delivered the list of addresses without a fight if she wasnt gonna go along

other than her using a gun again (where the hell did she even get that) i like this <3 her showing up and saving manhunter after she said she didnt care what happened is so her. also i just like the fact that she shot joker

gay gay homosexual gay

the rest of this issue is fun <3 just kate & rose fighting together then getting blown up together <3 this was a nice issue for her despite the problems i had with it

gotham war red hood #2

gotham war break!!!

okay first of all i LOVE that he took her along. there was no reason for rose to be here but jason was told to meet someone and said "ok ill go but my weird friend comes with me" its so funny

ive seen a lot of people complain about the "you're my only friend" line but i LOVE it. not necessarily because she doesnt have any friends but because she would not in a million years ADMIT that she has friends. she would rather be shot in the head than say that she actually likes the people that she hangs out with.

but to be fair.... she also doesnt have friends. "what about the lazarus island gang?" the only person she actually liked there and showed any friendship toward was damian, and they ARE friends but she considers him more of a little brother than a friend. "what about the teen titans??" a) she would NEVER admit that she is friends with any of them b) its technically.... not really canon that she was ever on the same team as them. like i said before, im meeting this book on its terms, and rose being a teen titan hasnt been mentioned since flashpoint :( i wont go on a whole tangent about her friends but given that she hasnt really made a friend in years and never talks to anyone else, i think its fair for her to say that she has no friends

so yeah all this to say: she has friends, but it is 100% in character for her to say that she has no friends. i stand by this line

i dont have much to say here i just think shes so cute <3 i also love the fact that jason jumped straight to "rose is robbing a dead person" instead of "rose is inspecting the body"

but im OBSESSED with the fact that she DOES rob him. i feel like we're not talking about this enough. she saw a dead body and took his money. im not even mad about it because its so fucking funny to me

im sorry jay/rose fans this makes me want to vomit. this feels too "earnest emotions" for both of them. the rest of this scene was fine but this panel specifically feels so :/

"i just need help" "always" and "please take care of yourself" and "meet at our spot" "promise?" "i promise" does not feel like them at all. its a very sweet and genuine moment but they would NOT have sweet and genuine moments! neither of them would ever express their feelings and they would not have this conversation

this does not feel like rose at all idk who this is. where is the rage!!!!!! where is the anger!!!!!!! why did she stand there for hours just. worried about him. why isnt she lashing out

comparing this to the scene in tt03 where she's worried about eddie:

she gets angry! shes worried about him and starts yelling at everyone around her because hes hurt and she doesnt know whats happening. i would have LOVED this energy in this book and its sooooo disappointing that she just. stands there like 🥺 when she doesnt know what happened to jason

mwsl #12

i rly liked this part fhdkjfhakjdfd i thought her pretending to be him just to get batman out of the way was so good and so real. shes helping out AND fucking with batman

very minor complaint here but this isnt even true . she DOES try to run into him in ds16 when slade kidnaps damian and rose gives bruce the ransom terms. also i feel like this line is vaguely implying that she HAS found him (/he found her) on accident before which is also not true given that their only interactions are in ds16 and being in the same general area in shadow war. and also reiterating that shes not a villain so batman has no reason to track her down or cause problems for her but. whatever. this is entirely just me jumping to conclusions about what this one throwaway line means and then getting mad about it

LOVE this. she inserted herself into the situation then complains about it. this isnt her business and shes making sure that jason knows it. but also she completely volunteered for most of this

BOOOOOOOO she would not fucking say that. "sorry about that whole chase" no she would not apologize. "please dont kick my ass" she would NOT say that!!!!! first of all given that this is after gotham war she would probably kick his ass just for what he did to jason. even besides that she would not be afraid of him even a little. comparing their convo in ds16 #5 to this is so sad bc </3 why is she afraid of him instead of being a huge bitch and yelling at him

this ending is really good for her though. she absolutely would dive into the water with joker gas, trash, and dead bodies just to save her friend <3

this is more like it!!!!!!!! shes worried for him and takes initiative to save him by jumping in the water despite it being a very dangerous decision and then insults him while she saves his life <3333 its a tiny bit more of her being mean to express worry which is nice <3 its not perfect but its closer

in conclusion: there are many good moments. there are many parts i like about it. but there are just so many things that dont feel like rose </3 most of the broad strokes are there but it just doesnt feel like her when shes not full of rage and going out of her way to piss people off

[bookwormlover10]

look i love people talking about Terry, it's nice to have some more people in the fandom. But what REALLY rubs me wrong is how people are treating the Epilogue Clone Son Twist like it's Everything about Terry's character. You would Not introduce Harley Quinn as an anti-hero with her gf Poison Ivy. You would go into her PHD and history with the Joker first. I don't like how the "Batfam" fans just gloss over and "blorbo-fy" Terry into "poor widdle baby clone" and "sassy Future bat #7". His FAMILY and his attempts to keep his relationships stable despite being Batman ARE the things that make him stand out in the Batfamily. His past as a gang member and his acknowledgement of his mistakes with his repayment IS important to him - stop making him Damian but Better! or Jason but Better! He's Terry! he's a 90s child with all the cringe that goes with it!

Yea I agreed with you on somethings. Even though I personally don't really like the half clone twist, in the Grand scheme of things. The whole clone thing was only in one episode of justice league unlimited and they never brought it up again. It was never batman beyond itself. I don't read much comics but from I know the clone thing was Recon in comics. But that what people remembered and when people hear about they forget everything else that is interesting about his character! Which makes me not really liking the existence of epilogue. Even Thought I think the the episode fine on it own ending the cadmus ark

For the blorbo thing. It something that I noticed in a lot of fandoms. I just learned to ignore most of it.

For the Damian but better! Is something I don't really see. Because Damien was raised by literal assassins and Terry had a normal childhood. Don't really see how Terry could be Damien but better..... There origins or nothing alike.... There anger issues maybe. But that a common trait with bat boys. Like dick has it and Jason has it. So that not special. The only thing that I could think of that they have in common is there sperm donor and that their both future batman. Thought I personally think that there dynamic has potential

Jason but better is something I understand with giving how similar they are in a lot of things. Even fashioned tastes. But Terry was rocking the brown leather jackets and red bat symbols longer than Jason did... But seriously though with the simulator organs in some places. Terry was still a kid with a normal childhood was both his parents. He only started acting out is cause he couldn't handle his parents divorce and was a really bad kid. ( And from from what I know Terry is in the middle class) For what I know ( don't at me I haven't read a lot of comics) in his post crisis ( his second one) organs Jason only act up to survive. But overall was a good kid. ( For the most part. I think from my research...) I'm not going to continue this part before I butcher something. Their morals quiet different to. sent I got interested in Terry first I compared Jason to Terry. This that they would have an interesting dynamic.

For the sassy future batman is something I could see. Thought me personally I see Terry like a spider man like Batman.( Maybe because I'm bias and I like Spider-Man) Terry organs has things similar to a spider man story. ( But people have talk to death about that.) Terry also has that spider man humor. Thought he is seared when need to be. ( This is just me rambling at this point)

[bestangelofall]

Ok, I'll say something that is incredibly gatekeeping, but here it goes:

Many people criticize how Jason is written in fanfic, and they are right for their criticism inasmuch as Jason did commit many crimes of his own volition and a lot of Jason in fic is written as being guiltless "because it was all the pit". I understand the annoyance of seeing that trope over and over in fanfic.

Jason's fans get roped into that because they, presumably, are the ones writing those fics. That would indeed make sense.

However, those fics/and other similar content aren't about Jason. They are about some guy who shares some features with DC comics Jason. And many of the fans writing that sort of material, they are batfamily fans, writing two-dimensional at best characters that fall into tropes they like.

(Jason is not the only victim of that. All Batfamily characters suffer from the same problem, I'm just focusing on Jason here because I do think he has one of the two worst cases of fanonization).

So, when antis say "Jason's fans are erasing his crimes" they aren't completely wrong, at least on the surface. Because that would seem to be the case taking into account the fanon material produced. However, it does not take into account that Jason (as all other Batfam characters) are oftenly used as stand-ins for tropes. It also does not take into account that a bunch of the Jason content isn't even Jason centric (you know what I'm talking about).

That all being said, I do think that it's important to keep in mind that he went through canonical character assassinations, and that sometimes his fans (who have, yes, read his comics) will elect to ignore some of those instances, just as oocness from other characters is also sometimes ignored.