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starbeltconstellation · 3 months ago

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I don’t think they are bad and some survived order 66 Quinlan Vos was one of them. But I do believe they lost their way by the end of the clone wars because most lost their way or watered down their beliefs becoming to caught up in image and pandering to the senate (palps *cough*) even yoda said basically that a dark shroud surround them (Sith made) but they made themselves susceptible to it with arrogance, becoming inflexible, and a strange combo of attachment and detachment. Even mace windu was attached to the republic which is one of the reasons he was so defensive and disliked Anakin he saw him as a threat to his republic.

I’m not trying to hate on the Jedi just make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad. The Jedi did a lot of good, they made one of the longest major peace times the galaxy had ever seen, that’s 1000 years of peace time after ending the Sith war. And actually Luke skywalker, Ezra Bridger, Ahsoka (rebellion), and season 4 Kanan were prime examples of what the Jedi were originally. I just think when palpatine started pulling strings and corrupting everything to take power it made slow brewing Jedi problems 10x worse as some Jedi like Barriss Offee’s master mixed up avoiding negative attachment with being cold and callous because while a Jedi master should avoid “possessive” attachment especially in a way that would hold their student back they should have a good bond with them because emotional bonds are one of the pillars of trust.

-that’s my take, I’m not sure what you meant by no Jedi haters though. So if this crosses your line then I’m sorry I can see myself out cause I don’t want to start a conflict 😅

Hello, anon. 👋

Firstly, I just want to DEEPLY apologize for the long wait in my response. 😅🤦‍♀️ I try not to get behind on asks, but life has been crazy for me at the moment, and especially with longer asks like yours, I really want to take my time and give a good and in depth response.

Now, just right off the bat: I don’t mind discussing things. As long as it doesn’t get nasty and full of insults. So I’m not about to bite your head off.

In fact, I am going to take the time to use your ask to refute all of these critical/anti Jedi points, proving how most of it is Palpatine’s propaganda that the galactic citizens/SW fandom has grown to believe because it’s easier to have a big bad scapegoat (ie; the Jedi boogie man) than for galactic citizens to grapple with the fact that they themselves are also a part of the problem because THEY are the ones who vote in politicians in the Senate (who are a lot corrupt, except like a handful like Mon Mothma/Bail Organa/Riyo Chuchi/Padmé/etc. And even Padmé wasn’t a complete saint like a lot of fans think, since she purposely hid Anakin’s Tusken massacre just because she didn’t want to give up her new hot murder husband who was obsessively adoring over her/loved her), and THEY are the ones who also got the most complacent, are they not? After all… if the fandom blames the JEDI… why didn’t the CITIZENS clock anything wrong until suddenly an Empire was telling them to hand over all their freedoms or die?

It’s really easy to sit back and say what you would’ve done in the Jedi’s position, because the audience has more information than they do. What Dooku and Qui-Gon told them is the equivalent of being told they saw a unicorn (Sith) in the wild. It’s not that out there that there’d be some doubts from the Council, and people seem to forget that the Council STILL said they’d look into it. But they aren’t magic. They can’t just snap their fingers and see that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. Especially with the Darkness cloaking their Force senses. I think it’s kinda… gross? To blame them for something Palpatine was causing (the cloaking Darkness) that was literally part of the plan to genocide them. Just a thought, but maybe that should be Palpatine’s and Anakin’s fault, where it belongs? Lol. Sorry if I sound a little snippy, it’s just this is a tired and running around in circles argument (although I do think your ask is a genuine one, which is why I’m taking the time to answer it and perhaps if not change YOUR mind, then change someone else’s that might read this. I’m trying to reach more across the aisle here, because both sides I’ll admit have moments where they only want to be defensive and not explain their positions).

It’s funny how people always point out that the Jedi missed brewing corruption (they totally knew about it and tried to fight against it how they could. But just like in real life, I’m unsure what people expect from them. To strut into the Senate and threaten/murder the politicians into submission? Because ya know… that was kinda the red flag Anakin gave off with that “They should be made to!” line to Padmé. Just saying. 🤷‍♀️ Just like anyone, Jedi know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! Funny how that works, huh?)

What I think is interesting about you and about a lot of Jedi fans (including LH, who is the writer of The Acolyte) is that you THINK you’re being “fair” to the Jedi, but you’re kinda… not? 🤷‍♀️😅 And I’m not saying that as an insult. I’m saying it because it’s true.

Let me explain: There are rabid anti Jedi fans known as the infamous Karen Travis’s who is basically a rapid and foaming at the mouth Jedi anti who believes they “got what was coming to them.🤢🥶” LH on the other hand (at least in HER head), views herself as Jedi CRITICAL (which is something you clearly view yourself as as well. And there’s nothing wrong with being Jedi critical. The problem is that a lot of times this “criticism” becomes condescending, whether intentional or not, despite maybe the person’s best intentions). And while there is a little bit of a difference there, it’s not as stark a line as fans would try to convince us pro Jedi’s to believe.

As I mentioned to someone else in my other ask: there are plenty of fair criticisms about the Jedi that I can acknowledge: the Shimi thing, for one, which is I think just a bad symptom of GL’s writing being more “metaphorical” than literal. Shimi HAS to stay on Tatooine because Anakin eventually HAS to murder the Tuskens in cold blood so GL can tell the story he wants to tell of how Anakin can’t let go, and so the Jedi are never given the opportunity to do what I truly BELIEVE they would’ve done, which is go back and free her, at least for the peace of mind of one of their newest initiate. The plot literally physically bars them from doing so.

And even THIS is not without its flaws, because they would ONLY have wiggle room to free Shimi after the heat of TPM problems had died down where they had time to do so… while walking past/avoiding eye contact with all of Shimi’s slave neighbors, because as specified before—The Jedi have no jurisdiction in the Outer Rim, and you bet your ass if they freed all those slaves and started a war with the Hutts with their little 10,000 strong army, the Republic would take one look and go “Lol, good luck with that,” and not help them at all, which would be basically suicide for the Order to try and accomplish on abolishment of slavery on the Outer Rim all on their own in the TRILLIONS of people in the galaxy. They do not have the MAN POWER for that. Not without the Senate army/clones. So how can they be blamed for this? WHY are one of the “space minorities” of the galaxy being blamed for something that should be the POLITICIANS’S job? Can you not see the double standard here? Genuinely asking, anon, because it’s always baffled me.

People want the Jedi to do something about it? Get on the Senate’s ass about it then—the REAL people who are responsible for all of the shit going wrong in the Outer Rim while they line their pockets and kiss up to clueless galactic citizens for votes come election time. THEY are the ones that should be responsible for the problems of an ENTIRE galaxy—not a small little minority group (which I’ve already come to realize that the Jedi are. They are a culture/religion/family, and 10,000 is but a drop in the ocean of the galaxy. They are so small in the grand scheme of things that it’s SCARY when considering how easy it was for Palpatine to lead them to almost total annihilation) that try and try and TRY as hard as they can, which is apparently somehow NEVER enough, for the galactic citizens AND the SW fandom itself.

And why is that? Why is it so HARD for SW fandom to relate to them? Why does LH (who I’m sure in her head BELIEVES she’s as progressive as they come, just as I genuinely believe you had the best intentions when reaching across the aisle to send me this ask, but at the end of the day still comes across frankly exhausting and a little condescending when you pick out the “good Jedi blorbos” who are ones that deserve to live and don’t have to be dehumanized as “emotionless/cold/callous” like you just did with Luminara just because Luminara chose to grieve in a way you and Anakin and many other rabid Anakin fans/anti Jedi’s view as lesser than) view the Jedi as some type of “space cops” who are “oppressing 🙄” the Sith as a representation of her religious trauma that she is clearly projecting onto them as something completely separate than what the Jedi Culture actually is? Why does she view them as “emotionally repressed” and “almost catholic-like”, and views the fucking SITH (literal SPACE NAZIS 😭🤦‍♀️) as a representation for her persecution as a gay woman?

It’s because—just like MOST SW fans in the US—she cannot fathom a culture outside of the lens of western philosophy. In her mind, the Jedi aren’t a “real 🙄🤢” family. In HER mind, the Jedi aren’t necessarily evil, but she still believes those “poor little culty Jedi 😔💔🙄” didn’t see they were ‘sewing their own destruction’. (Which is blaming them. It’s BLAMING the victims of genocide, and it’s to this day the most disgusting thing I will always remember about the show’s “your actions will cause the destruction of every Jedi in the galaxy” quote that made Twitter go wild with genocide apologia galore).

I’m not gonna repeat everything in the post I made to the other anon (this ask response is long enough already), but I’ll link it here in case you want to read it, because I do have some examples screenshotted of certain SW fandom dehumanizing the Jedi and showing genocide apologia, which proves that pro Jedi’s critique/defensiveness for the Jedi Order and their culture isn’t an overreaction or without basis, because it proves that blaming the Jedi for their own genocide is the NORM, even if people won’t admit so outright (still can’t believe The Acolyte just outright SAID it. I’m not gonna rub fans’s of the show’s faces in it, but because of that line alone, I’m SO glad that show was cancelled. Anti Jedi propaganda is already bad enough).

Also, I’m sorry to tell you this, anon, but the Mace Windu thing is just straight up wrong. I have never understood this Mace thing with the fandom. People act like Mace was personally bullying Anakin every damn day. Mace didn’t even hate Anakin. Just because Mace was a little stern with Anakin and didn't worship the ground he walked on didn't mean he hated/disliked him/was jealous of him (a frankly childish notion, in my opinion). They both just had different views over how to be a Jedi and in battle strategies during the war. It was never personal with Mace. Anakin MADE it personal, because he always took not being told "yes" personally, like it was a slight against him. He didn’t see Anakin as a threat to the Republic until literally the last free day of democracy when he looked at him and saw a giant shatterpoint all around Anakin. I think that would give any Jedi pause. Lol.

Mace was a fine Jedi who treated Anakin just fine. Just because he didn’t worship the ground Anakin walked on or treated him like God’s gift doesn’t mean that Mace was a bad person or Anakin was a “poor little guy” getting bullied by him. The thing with Mace refusing Anakin a seat on the Council is overblown. Frankly: Anakin didn’t DESERVE a seat on the Council. He might’ve been a powerful Jedi, but he was still hot headed and reckless and still had a lot to learn. And his temper tantrum when he didn’t get his way did him no favors either (look, I LOVE Anakin, but I’m not gonna be delusional about his faults, okay? Most of his problems were caused because he built them up out of thin air. He built up this rivalry with Mace in his head, when Mace was busy with his own life. Mace was not “out to get Anakin” or something. That’s—as kindly as I can say—something children tell themselves when angry at parents who tell them “no”, which Mace did a lot with Anakin). And I’m not gonna lie, anon. People have always seemed extra hard on Mace specifically, and while it might not be all of it, I think there’s a part of racism mixed in there with a proud black Jedi that isn’t afraid to stand up to the white and emo and hot future serial killer in the making (my hot Anakin! 🥰🥰😂). I’m not saying YOU specifically are being racist, but I’m just pointing out something that I’ve always felt reeked around the fandom opinion of Mace (more from the SW YouTube dudebro side of the fandom, but still).

I’m not gonna go and explain a play by play of all my points, because I got in a argument/discussion with someone on YouTube the other day (even though I know it’s bad for my blood pressure 😬😤😂), and I feel like the points I made there are perfect as a main response for this ask, so I’m going to place the screenshots here. This whole online debate came about when I was watching a SW lore video on Leia visiting Anakin’s grave after the ROTJ celebration and telling him she doesn’t forgive him, and one of the commentators called her a “brat”, which pissed me off. Lol. But anyway, we’ve been going back and forth the past few days, and I’ve basically made a mini pro Jedi manifesto, so I think all of the screenshots will answer most of your questions and also refute them to show how they are inaccurate and more of a fandom opinion that’s only come about because fans like Anakin and want to twist themselves into knots to blame everyone for his problems but him.

Here are all of the online person’s screenshots: you’ll notice how eventually he tries to justify Anakin killing the younglings as a “mercy”. 🥶🥶🤢 Yikes.

Here are my responses:

Damn. Apparently there’s a screenshot limit. 😭 I’ll copy paste the rest:

Leia had every right to come and get closure if she needed to. Anakin personally tortured her himself after all. She has a personal stake in this through being tortured by their own FATHER that Luke doesn't have. Whether she wanted to go to make sure the person she viewed as a monster was dead, or to try and get some closure from what Luke had told her, it was within her rights to do so. She understood EVERYTHING perfectly. She knew who Anakin had been for years before the last five minutes of his death, and that was someone who'd terrorized the galaxy.

Lol, Anakin wasn't "fulfilling the will of The Force" as his reign on the Dark Side for 20 something years. He fulfilled the will of the Force when he finally got off his ass and killed Palpatine to end the last of the Sith. It's a copout to pretend any of his other actions were anything but his own choice, otherwise his 'redemption' means squat. She doesn't owe him anything just because he stopped the horror by killing Palpatine. It's the LEAST he could've done. You seem to believe that one action somehow should buy Anakin forgiveness in the eyes of all of his victims, and if they don't forgive him, then they're "brats" or something. Redemption doesn't work like that. You don't do the right thing because you'll get something out of it. You do it to be selfless and because it's simply the right thing to do. And I can tell you that Anakin would probably disagree with your opinion on Leia being a "brat" himself once he was back on the Light Side, because the whole point is that he'd be REPENTANT. Not being arrogant and expecting blind forgiveness for things that are quite frankly unforgivable.

Luke's forgiveness is a GIFT. It is NOT something that has to be the norm, and Leia is no less because she chooses not to forgive Anakin. She has every right to never view him as her father till her dying days.

Anakin had EVERYTHING to do with the explosion of Alderaan. This BS certain fans spout of "that was Tarkin" is nonsense. Anakin had agency. He could've tried to stop Tarkin or tried to leave the Empire way before that moment. Just because it was hard, he chose not to. EVERYONE on board the Death Star that weren't prisoners are responsible for the destruction of Alderaan. And yes, that includes Anakin. As I said before, Tarkin would only be given the highest sentence in court because he chose to order the planet destroyed. But Anakin would still be charged right along with him in a court of law. Just because Anakin had a traumatic life, doesn't excuse the things he's done. That's like saying a school shooter/serial killer has no agency over killing their victims just because they had a “hard life.” It’s a frankly illogical argument.

Anakin as 'Vader' could've choked Tarkin out right there. Who's gonna stop him? He's survived dozens of enemies in the comics. Him not having "authority" is a copout. Anakin was given plenty of authority in the Empire. He was just still Palpatine's lapdog at the end of the day. Hell—he could've grew a spine and left the Empire years BEFORE that moment. He does not get a free pass for "following orders".

Lol, Anakin does NOT have borderline personality disorder. That’s a fanon theory. That is NOT actually canon and George never said that. GL says Anakin fell because of his greed for power to never feel weak like he did as a child and because he was afraid to let go. The Jedi didn't fail him. He failed THEM. He's the one who fucking genocided them after all. Their entire culture is literally mental empathy because they're space wizards. There were times when Yoda and Obi-Wan all but BEG Anakin to open his mouth and say what's wrong, and he either refuses or is so vague that there's no way to glean what his main problem is (when Anakin talks to Yoda about Padmé and won't just ADMIT it's about Padmé). People can't help you if you don't meet them halfway. Anakin refused to do that. That's on him. Not on any of his victims. And even if he DID have borderline personality disorder (which is just a fanon theory), he'd STILL be responsible for his actions. It's amazing how much fans blame everyone else under the sun than the man who choked his wife. Lol.

I don't think Anakin is emotionless or incapable of care or goodness. That's the whole point of Luke, after all. I simply deny not giving him the agency to make his own decisions. He WAS a monster. What else do you call killing little kids who beg for your help? But the point of Luke is that Anakin ALWAYS had the opportunity to turn from his actions and be better. He just didn't find the spine until ROTJ. And that's great! He turned back to the light and his soul found salvation. But he is NOT redeemed in the eyes of anyone but Luke. It's laughable to think otherwise or that he wouldn't have been executed if he'd survived. And it's illogical to blame his victims and call them "brats" just because they won't forgive someone who was once basically space Hitler.

Despite what you may think, I love Anakin's character and the tragedy of him. I love that he found salvation in the end. But I DESPISE treating him like a child who didn't know what he was doing. He knew. He was selfish for twenty years. LUKE is who taught him how to be selfless. Everything else is on him. You can't call him the greatest 'redemption' of all time and then blame everyone else for his actions.

Because then what is there to redeem?

Nothing.

You can't have both. Pick one. 🤷‍♀️

What does it matter that Anakin as 'Vader' knew that Palpatine wouldn't praise Tarkin for such a cruel and useless thing in destroying a planet just to look a little tough? That doesn't mean shit. Just because Tarkin eventually gets what was coming to him, doesn't mean that Anakin couldn't have sped up Tarkin's demise right there. Good actions don't work like that: "Oh, it didn't really matter that he didn't try to save Alderaan! Because in the end Tarkin gets his karma!" (Anakin gets his karma too, by the way. You could argue from his burns or the fact that the only way he can 'redeem' himself is through dying by killing Palpatine).

I'm not sure what argument your making on if Anakin could've "talked" Tarkin into another way to get Leia to talk to betray the Rebels. I'm arguing that if he—or YOU—expected Leia's "forgiveness", then it implies there should've been some level where he could've done something different. I'm arguing he could've left the Empire years earlier if he'd grown a spine, or he could've Force choked Tarkin out right there and got him and Leia out of there somehow. Who's gonna stop him? No lowly soldier on board the Death Star could stand in his way. Palpatine would be miles away at that point.

He could've done something different. Fans just argue he was "helpless" in the sense that they don't want Anakin to be selfless to give anything up. The excuse that he was "stuck" and "had nothing left" is BS. Deep down, Anakin knows if he found Obi-Wan and repented that Obi-Wan would take him back. There's a whole arc about it in a comic when he's trying to bleed a Kyber Krystal. He just doesn't do it because he's too depressed and selfish to admit he screwed up his own life. He pretended for 20 years everyone betrayed him, when really it was the other way around, and that was too horrific to contemplate, so he pretended he was another person, when clearly he's still the same guy, only horrifically injured under the mask. He can only admit the truth after Luke offers him blind forgiveness.

It doesn't really matter that psychologists have "diagnosed" Anakin. He isn't a real person. He's a character that was written with a narrative purpose by GL. And GL was clear when he says the reasons Anakin does what he does is because he's greedy for power to not feel weak again and also because he's too afraid to let go. The writer of the character knows better actually. Isn't that what SW fans always say with GL?

Jedi are literally space Buddhists that GL describes as "empathetic space monks." Part of their culture is literally to be connected to all life around them. It's laughable to say they wouldn't understand a "simple person" in the galaxy. That's literally what they're taught to do in the Temple. Before the war, they were Advisors/ mediators.

Anakin had a fondness for Qui-Gon, but he did trust Obi-Wan. Maybe not enough to mention Padmé (he didn't trust ANYONE with that except apparently Rex, and l'm almost certain Rex found out on accident, because Anakin definitely doesn't care about Rex as much as he did Ahsoka), but he DID trust him. And he cared for Obi-Wan greatly. Just not more than his own wants and needs apparently. But that's true when it comes to Anakin choosing himself over all of his friends and family at the end of ROTS. The Jedi would've helped Anakin if he'd just ASKED without being so damn vague. Maybe they wouldn't have let him stay in the Order, but it's not like he'd be kicked out the door immediately. But Anakin wanted his cake and to eat it too, so he didn't tell him about his wife because he wanted to keep the power of being a Jedi. And guess what? The Jedi don't OWE one man the power to change their entire culture just for him.

There isn't anything wrong with having a set of rules for beliefs. Priests can't marry either. That doesn't make them “emotionless robots” that are “incapable of understanding human emotion” or understanding a struggling man's thoughts. As I said before, the Jedi cannot help Anakin if he doesn't ASK. You cannot condemn them in one breath for not helping him, while at the same time saying that it's fine Anakin didn't explain his problems with them, because they should've just been able to read his mind. It's hypocritical.

Obi-Wan had no other options but to follow Padmé to find Anakin. He NEEDED to find Anakin, because Anakin was fucking dangerous at that point in time, and had just helped genocide an entire culture. Not exactly father/husband material at that point. And even then, in the movies Obi-Wan doesn't reveal himself until it's clear Anakin isn't going to listen to Padmé. It's ludicrous to think if Padme kept arguing with Anakin that Anakin still wouldn't have strangled her in anger in that moment. Again, it appears somehow you're trying to put off this transgression he's committed on someone else again, and I cannot fathom why. It makes him far less interesting that way if he was just a "poor guy" who couldn't control himself.

What I find interesting is you can admit that Anakin doesn't have the information the audience does, which is why he thinks Palpatine is kind and is his friend, but you show no grace towards the Jedi, calling them "arrogant" for not realizing the Sith had slowly popped back up, as if they are somehow supposed to have the audience's information. The truth is that they don't.

Just like anyone, they know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! 🤷‍♀️ Funny how that works, huh?)

It doesn't matter if Anakin didn't "want" to kill kids/the Tuskens/betray Mace and his Jedi friends. What does that matter? What does it matter if he felt bad while doing it if he still DOES it? You wouldn't say a school shooter wasn't responsible for their actions just because they were sobbing the whole time they went around slaughtering everyone in the school. Anakin's responsible for his own actions, and just because he might feel "bad" doesn't let him off the hook. Even when he was masquerading as 'Vader.' Who cares if he was miserable 24/7? l’ll tell you his victims sure didn't when he decapitated them with his lightsaber or snapped their spines.

I'm not arguing about the people that forgave Anakin. I'm arguing over condemning people as "brats" that don't. (I personally think it's a copout to have Leia forgive him after reading some diary, so l'm glad at the least apparently new canon has her taking her entire life to get there). My point is there is nothing that makes Anakin's victims any less if they choose not to forgive him, because forgiveness is a GIFT. It isn't something you're owed. It's funny fans keep pretending he's owed that while condemning all of the Jedi as "arrogant", because I can't think of anything more arrogant than a man who was formerly one of the worst monsters in the galaxy thinking he's "owed" forgiveness. And just as I mentioned before, the Anakin after he came back to the Light wouldn't even agree with such a notion. He may ASK. But he wouldn't call Leia a "brat" for it. It's ridiculous to think that after the horror he'd personally committed to her.

I don't really care what your thoughts are on "Darth Mouse" as that's not what this conversation is about. GL describes Palpatine as the Devil, which is why Anakin can be turned back to the Light and Palpatine can't. But there is NO DOUBT that Anakin as 'Darth Vader' is seen as 'space Hitler' throughout internet culture (the Empire/the Sith is LITERALLY based off of Nazis). If you'd take a moment to google it you would see it's already a huge staple of internet culture. That doesn't make him emotionless or without goodness (he saved Luke, after all), but it IS still true. I don't see what's so hard about acknowledging his atrocities. He was a cruel and horrible monster for most of his life, and it only makes Luke's actions all the more miraculous when he somehow gets through to Anakin and makes him consider a heel face turn in the final hour.

Lol, honestly I also think you're a pretty strange person calling one of Anakin's torture victims a "brat" just because she didn't forgive him like dear saintly Luke. There is no shame in being kind like Luke (it helped him win after all), but there is NOTHING that makes Leia a bad person for not forgiving Anakin. I think you don't seem to contemplate just how BAD that is. Her FATHER tortured her for apparently HOURS. We have no idea just what he said and did to her during this time. He could've taunted her, for all we know. And I know, I know, you might say "He didn't know she was his daughter! 🤪🤪 " But that's not the POINT. The point is how he was cruel, and only seemed care when he realized she was his flesh and blood. Anakin's lucky Leia didn't spit on his grave. Because she WASN'T consumed by her anger to the point it was unhealthy. She just didn't forgive him and never viewed him as her father as long as she lived (because BAIL ORGANA was her father in all but blood). And that is within her rights. As I keep stating, Anakin is not OWED anything. His actions at the end of ROTJ are the LEAST he can do. He should be GRATEFUL to the opportunity Luke gave him and how Obi-Wan and Yoda were saintly enough to forgive him and help him become a Force ghost, because he quite frankly didn't deserve it. But salvation isn't always about what people deserve. Just like forgiveness, it's a gift. Anakin received a gift from Luke and Obi-Wan—but he is NOT owed it from Leia. And she isn't a "brat" for not giving it to him. It is important to stick to one's beliefs and principles. Leia stuck by hers. That takes courage and strength. She loved Luke but never agreed with him about Anakin.

And I also never called Anakin as 'Vader' a maniac. I called him basically a monster. Because he WAS. He helped kill thousands of people for Palpatine on the regular and continued to help genocide Jedi over the years, while ALSO still killing more kids over the years a handful of times too, even if he usually tried to avoid it (the Kenobi Show when he purposely snapped a kid's neck in front of his mother and dragged him through the street like garbage). Ironically, the more you learn and read about Anakin's atrocities, the more Luke's reaction becomes downright insane (while still saintly/miraculous), because NOBODY else (especially in real life!) would think someone like that had a heart deep down with a sliver of care left. That's what makes it miraculous Luke got through to him.

Lol, you cannot seriously be arguing that the maintenance workers on board the Death Star were "poor little guys." I don't know if you're aware of this, but even though there were probably volunteers, on the other hand, usually half the time in the military soldiers are ASSIGNED certain things like "mopping the floors" or "latrine duty" personally—so those people STILL were probably Empire officers. And even if they weren't, they still chose to be on the abomination known as the Death Star. Their sentence may be the lightest, but unless they were put there against their will they too would ALSO be charged. And also—with your argument—you're calling Luke's actions at the end of the Original Trilogy as a genocidal act or something, when really it was a necessary act to take out a planet destroying death machine. It's amazing how certain fans can try to twist things around to try and blame the heroes for something that is the villain's fault.

Here we go again with the excuses of "if only Mace wasn't mean to poor little Anakin" then Anakin wouldn't have had to murder everyone. Lol, is Anakin incapable of cognitive thinking? Because I promise you that if I was Ahsoka and heard that Anakin's reasoning for trying to kill me at one point in Rebels and betraying all of his friends is because a few people were "mean to him" I would just be pissed off at the gall of him to not take responsibility for his own actions. Even if a few people WERE mean to Anakin, that still doesn't give him the right to go on a murderous rampage. All his actions are still on him. That's like saying a school shooter is justified in his actions just because he was bullied. You calling Anakin a "Trojan horse" as if he planned any of that and wasn't just riding by the seat of his pants doesn't really make sense. Anakin didn't plan anything, and if you're arguing that BS theory that Anakin "balanced" the Force by genociding the Light Side to have it be even with the Dark Side (not true anyway since there were still more Light Siders than Dark Siders), then I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️

There is no way that "genocide is good, actually!" is the main theme GL had for a children's Trilogy. Anakin completed the prophecy when he finally got off his ass to kill Palpatine. He could've done that in Palpatine's office, or years down the line—either way, the outcome to complete the prophecy is the same: the eradication of the Sith. No more. No less.

Quite frankly, I think it's pretty gross to blame a culture for their own genocide, so the galactic community isn't doing itself any favors at that point anyway (including the SW community. It's always been a baffling fandom opinion to me). And despite what you and other fans may believe—the Jedi shouldn't have to CHANGE their entire culture/way of life for the sake of one man (Anakin) OR the galaxy's inhabitants who don't even TRY to understand them anyway (funny how Jedi are blamed for not understanding citizens, but what citizens try to understand them?).

They are not obligated to change their culture just for the right not to be murdered by a genocidal man on a temper tantrum.

Yeah, it's not surprising there were some among the population who "rejoiced" the fall of the Order. The war affected people's livelihoods and lives, and people get REAL greedy real fast when their day to day lives are affected by something. So yeah, it's no wonder they listened to Palpatine's propaganda to make the Jedi their scapegoat. Still pretty gross and disgusting, of course, but I can see how it came to be that way. Pretty ironic how people seemed to eventually miss the Jedi when they were gone, huh? It's not so fun dealing with an enemy (The Empire) when no space monk is standing protectively in front of you with a laser sword.

You DO know it's canon there were only 10,000 Jedi (not counting younglings and retired Masters) in a galaxy of TRILLIONS, right? It's illogical to expect them to be able to single handedly end slavery throughout the galaxy (especially in the Outer Rim where the Senate won't help them), or to expect them to be able to solve every damn problem in the universe like poverty (the lower levels of Coruscant). They helped people when they could. I don't know how, but you've seemed to have forgotten (just like most fans) that the Jedi ALWAYS tried to help. Even to the very end of their lives. It only makes it more gross to blame them for their own genocide. Lol, Luke barely knew shit about them except what he managed to scrounge up that hadn't been purged by the Empire (and a lot of that is from Legends authors, who didn't particularly like the Jedi anyway, so of course they'd write it like that and not as GL's vision of them being the heroes). The clones were treated terribly, and the Jedi did everything they could to make their lives easier (unless you'd prefer they sit on their asses out of the war to leave the clones under the command of people like Tarkin who didn't give a shit about them?), and it's illogical to blame them for the clones's plight. The SENATE are the corrupt ones and it's THEIR job to fix poverty and slavery and give the clones their rights. THEY are the actual villains of the prequels (besides the Sith), which is exactly what GL wanted to present to show the moral decay of democracy. And yet somehow people missed that and thought he was saying—"No, actually, it's the genocide victims who are wrong, guys!" when that couldn't be farther from accurate.

Dear LORD, here we go again with the excuses for Anakin's actions. Anakin "couldn't trust" Obi-Wan because of something kinda snippy/mean that Obi-Wan said when he was a TEENAGER?(The “pathetic life form/he’s dangerous line”, which he said when he was jealous/also—again—a teenager). Wow, way to hold a grudge. Lol. Doesn't that go against your whole argument about "forgiveness?" Didn't Obi-Wan's following actions towards Anakin then on in treating him like a brother show NOTHING about his care for him? Come on now. Let's be serious.

Why the hell WOULDN'T Obi-Wan go after Anakin? As stated beforehand, Anakin was DANGEROUS at that point, and needed to be put down. Anakin went against his fate to destroy the Sith, which put the prophecy on hold for a bit, so yeah, there was a "plan", which is why he lived, but that doesn't mean he wasn't dangerous and still didn't deserve to die at that point in time. He'd just killed kids like animals hours earlier. Again: not exactly husband/father material anymore.

Again, I feel like the implication here is that you're hinting that everyone misinterpreted the prophecy and that Anakin's fate was to bring "balance" by becoming a genocidal monster and "evening the score", and I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It's not accurate to state GL's original intent to a children's trilogy is that genocide to "even the score" was the correct answer. As stated again: Anakin completed the prophecy when he destroyed the Sith (ie; him and Palpatine). Full stop.

Hmmmm, you're doing a whole lot of speculation on how Leia "might" react if she was put in Anakin's situation, but not actually taking into account how everyone makes their own decisions and people can react differently to things at the end of the day. This just feels like another way you're trying to excuse Anakin's actions and condemn Leia for her bitterness towards Anakin just because: "Oh, if only that brat went what he went through! 🤪 " And such an argument—in the nicest way I can think possible—feels like the platitudes children tell themselves when angry at their parents. ALL of your and rabid Anakin fans's arguments are, because it all boils down to: "It wasn't HIS Fault! It was THIS person's! Because they were MEAN to him and he got BULLIED! And all his friends didn't understand him (even when it's obvious they reached out plenty of times and tried)!" It's just a very tired and frankly going in circles argument. You keep bringing up all these external factors as if the Jedi didn't try at all to offer Anakin coping mechanisms (Yoda literally offered them, and his advice—whether you or others want to admit it or not—makes sense. In war, you sometimes have to be prepared you might lose someone, and with the vague knowledge Anakin gave him, I'm pretty sure Yoda thought Anakin was talking about Obi-Wan. If Yoda knew it was about Padmé, no shit he'd probably have different advice). Anakin's life was not horrible at the Temple. He had a horrible childhood and that would fuck anyone's head up and leave a scar, but once at the Temple he was offered a whole range of different options to receive help. The only difference here is that you just don't AGREE with the Jedi's beliefs in how they go about helping people control their emotions so they don't lash out at people.

Maybe a few people (kids) at the Temple said a few things to Anakin that could be bullying (and I've only seen ONE comic related to that), but it's ridiculous to assume that the entire Jedi Order hated him. It's illogical to think that, and it's just like the childish notion fans have that Mace (who you call a "motherfucker" for... again, what? Treating Anakin like everyone else and not God's gift?) hated or was jealous of Anakin just because he didn't tell him "yes" all the time.

The point is, Anakin's life was fine at the Temple. Maybe he got a little isolated and lonely, but it's not like people didn't reach out. Anakin just had trouble reaching back. And all of those excuses don't let him off the hook for his genocidal actions, which you still seem to be twisting yourself into knots to try and do. THAT is childish. Not Leia judging Anakin for who he was when she had the misfortune of being tortured by him. You're plain lying to yourself if you think you wouldn't react just like Leia in real life. Most people are not gonna be wondering to themselves why the "poor little serial killer" did what he did to their family.

Just as stated before, Anakin honestly didn't deserve shit at the end of his life.

He'd betrayed everyone he'd ever known and thrown them all away (Rex, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Padmé, the Jedi/501st, R2, etc) like complete garbage. He helped genocide the Jedi—the very Order that took him in from slavery—and then spent those next 20 years hunting them down like animals, while also in his free time killing whoever Palpatine pointed him to like a lapdog just because he was depressed and pissed he'd screwed up his own life. He'd murdered thousands of kids at that point (literally monstrous and unforgivable for most people. Certainly me. Which only makes Luke's forgiveness more meaningful) and there is a comic where he hunted down a Jedi just for the sheer purpose of ripping his youngling out of the man's arms so he could let Palpatine turn the baby into an Inquisitor.

I am sure there are compilations on YouTube of all the people Anakin killed and the people he'd tortured or made jokes at while he smirked over their bodies. Come back and watch those and then tell me again he "deserved" to find peace. Lol, Anakin didn't deserve shit.

And I know that me saying that will probably make you think I hate his character. I don't. Anakin's character is very dear to me and I'm GLAD he found peace at the end of his life. I'm just under no delusions that he was "redeemed" in any sense of the word that wasn't in Luke's eyes alone or that Anakin actually "deserved" peace, when it should be completely obvious he deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell. As I keep repeating again and again: Anakin's 'redemption' and forgiveness are GIFTS. It's not something he is owed or something he even deserves. It's something he's given from the people around him who are quite frankly better people than he ever was in his entire life. Luke taught him how to be selfless at the end of his life. Because of his trauma as a slave, Anakin never wanted to do that beforehand from the fear of being weak again, no matter how many tried to help. But Luke did, and he succeeded with getting through to Anakin and making him finally get off his ass to make the right choice.

Again, The Force may have a "plan" but that doesn't mean people don't have free will. Otherwise, they'd all just be mindless puppets walking around spouting nonsense. That's just another copout to try and excuse Anakin's genocidal actions and say it wasn't his fault because it was his "fate". It wasn't. His fate was to destroy the Sith (and NOTHING else, despite what you apparently believe about a BS argument that I admit is common in fanon that Anakin "evening the playing field" was his destiny or something). He tripped and dragged his heels on that for twenty years before finally completing the prophecy in the final hour before his death. No more, no less.

It's childish to not take responsibility for your actions. It's why even though I love his character l'm not gonna treat Anakin like he was a "poor little guy" who didn't have a brain. He had options and a support system (Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Padmé/Rex/R2/etc) he could've reached out to if he really wanted to. But he didn't because he just wanted to be told he was right. That's on him and no one else, as I keep saying over and over, despite how many excuses for him you try to bring up. I will repeat again: you give Anakin a lot of grace, but apparently none to Leia herself. Why is that? It feels pretty hypocritical. It also feels pretty hypocritical to judge and blame the Jedi in one breath saying they "lost their way (incorrect)", while in another breath embracing their very own beliefs on love and forgiveness. So, which is it? Do you think the Jedi had a wisdom and empathy for forgiveness, or do you think they "lost their way?" You can't have both and pick and choose based off how you want to excuse and justify Anakin's behavior.

Ahhhh, and THERE it is. See, I knew this gross argument (that I admit is a common fandom opinion) was hiding in there somewhere! I'm honestly not going to give this opinion much time, because at the end of the day you and everyone else who believe it are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ You wanna know how I know that? Because it's genocide apologia. And at the end of the day, when you say the whole purpose GL made for Anakin's story and the theme of SW is that "genocide is good actually!", all I have to do to refute that is to remind you and others that this is a CHILDREN'S trilogy and from the words of GL himself; SW's main theme is about hope.

So because of that, this gross "theory" is shown for what it is: immoral, gross and just plain wrong genocide apologia. 🤷‍♀️ It's also just wrong in general, because Anakin killed all the Sith at the end of the Original Trilogy, and it's now canon more than two Light Siders were still alive at the time, so that would be "uneven scales" which goes against this immoral genocide apologia theory to begin with.

Ahhh, would you look at that! You've had the gall to bring up another gross argument similar to your earlier one (which is a common fandom one, I'll admit) that Anakin showed "mercy" to the younglings when killing them, when it's obvious that's incorrect and he didn't show them anything but cruelty. And now you're giving this type of similar gross argument that genocide survivors were "freed" from the "slavery" of their own culture! I gotta hand it to you, it's a common SW fan belief, but every time I hear it, I still get amazed at the gall of someone who truly believes this is accurate each and every time. Because it's obvious you don't agree with their culture (not saying I'd be a good Jedi either, but the point remains), which is why you think them being "freed" from their culture is better for them so the genocide survivors can make "real families" because you don't view the Jedi as family! Because you only believe in the basic family dynamic. So yeah, this opinion is also immoral and wrong obviously, because it tries to twist Anakin's and the Empire's genocidal actions as "benevolent" and "cleansing the Order for something new." Which is, again, genocide apologia, which proves you are wrong, because it's illogical that genocide apologia would be the theme of a children's trilogy about hope.

A lot of these things you bring up about Anakin and Palagueis are things l'm not even sure are actually canon anymore or if they're from Legends. Even if they are canon, these again are not excuses for his actions just because Anakin may have had a penchant for darkness. Even if he did, it's still his responsibility to learn how to control it and not hurt people. Many Jedi need to be guided on the right path to not follow evil, which is what the Jedi already did every day. With all of the thousands of Jedi trained and only a handful turning to the Dark Side, that seems like a pretty good record. The Jedi didn't "lose their way." This is a tired and BS argument that I admit Filoni has brewed the more GL gave him more leeway with SW, because Filoni doesn't view the Jedi as heroes in the right like GL did. There is nothing to show they lost their way just because they joined the war, because they literally were given that choice or sitting on their asses to watch the galaxy burn, and you bet your ass if they did that then Palpatine would spin it around to the public: "Look at how they sit in their ivory towers and watch you suffer under the Separatists's hands! 🤪🤪” So there is literally no way they can win here. If you're talking about how some of their methods got dirty (trying to mind trick the bounty hunter), firstly: they were literally trying to save their own children from being tortured/experimented on/enslaved, which I'm pretty sure gives them some slack (unless you're only willing to give that to Anakin?). Secondly, Anakin also got his hands dirty plenty of times in the war, and is conveniently not criticized by the fandom as much as the Jedi are. Ironic, huh?

Anakin could've told Obi-Wan anything and Obi-Wan would've helped him. Anakin knew that. Anakin just didn't want to risk losing his Jedi authority in the Order, because he didn't want to have to choose between a life with Padmé and being a powerful Jedi. If he cared about Padme completely selflessly, why didn't he just admit he was married and ask the Jedi to help Padmé and make sure she stayed alive through their Jedi healers? That was an option.

He literally risked Padme's life because he keeps sitting on the fence to try and have both. Because despite what you and some of his fans believe—Anakin isn't OWED both. He doesn't deserve everything in the world just because he is the oh so mighty "Chosen One/Hero With No Fear". A culture shouldn't have to change their entire way of life just for one man to continue being married and to have his cake and eat it too by staying in the Order. Even in real life, priests still aren't allowed to practice and be married. That doesn't mean they're being "repressed" or that they're under some type of horrible "slavery" to suppress their emotions. It's just the rules of that culture. If Anakin didn't like the rules of the Jedi, he should've just left after getting their help to keep Padmé and his kids safe. But he didn't because he wanted to keep both. That’s on him. Not his victims.

I mean, yeah, no duh the Jedi Order would’ve had some problems after killing Palpatine and having to prove they he was a Sith that acted on both sides of the war. Palpatine did that really well, but it’s a bit illogical to assume they wouldn’t eventually find evidence in his office somewhere or on his data files. He did the things he did by planning his schemes some type of way. And yeah, for some insane reason being a Sith Lord “wasn’t illegal”, but being controlling of both sides of the war IS, which they could’ve proved after a while. So, if you are trying to argue that Anakin’s actions were for the “better” because it would’ve been too “hard” for the Jedi otherwise—you are still objectively wrong this way. 🤷‍♀️ It’s also just another way to try and excuse Anakin by pretending his actions that day on the final day of freedom of democracy didn’t matter, when it’s obvious that they very clearly did. If Anakin hadn’t cut off Mace’s hand, the war would’ve been won. Therefore, everything that goes bad in the galaxy is legit Anakin’s fault. 🤷‍♀️ Of course Palpatine has the highest blame because he’s the mastermind, but betrayers/backstabbing is always a worse breed of crime, because it always comes from a friend, which is what Anakin was to the Jedi/Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Rex/Padmé/501st. He legit ruins all of his friends’s lives with that one swing to cut off Mace’s hand. Trying to paint it as anything else is simply incorrect, and takes away from his ‘redemption’ at the end of the Original Trilogy by trying to pretend he’s a “poor little guy” who had no choice.

Anakin could’ve “defeated” Palpatine multiple ways. Just as I mentioned before, just because The Force had a “plan” doesn’t mean that everyone was puppets walking around on a string, because then free will wouldn’t exist. Anakin could’ve helped defeat Palpatine in his office that day in Revenge of The Sith by either taking the swing himself or either standing back and just letting Mace finish the job. He’s still The Chosen One that way, because his choice is still literally the defining action that saves democracy that way. He also could defeat him the way he does in the Original Trilogy, which is taking him by surprise to save Luke by throwing him down the reactor shaft to kill Palpatine. Either way gets the job done. He doesn’t need to physically fight Palpatine to get it done himself. He’s just the catalyst for what happens to the galaxy because of HIS choices alone, which proves how he has agency and understood why all his actions were wrong and just didn’t care. He didn’t need Luke for that in Palpatine’s office. All he had to do was grow a spine and let Mace take the final swing. He failed to do that and doomed the galaxy for twenty years because of it. 🤷‍♀️

Ahhh, there you go again with the gall to pretend that what Anakin did was “mercy” for the younglings just because the imperials would’ve done horrible things to them too! Gotta hand it to you, one has to have a lot of nerve to believe such an argument such as this (which I acknowledge is a common opinion among rabid Anakin fans), but it’s still gross and hilariously wrong every time I hear it repeated. So, just as I stated to you before: you and anyone else who has this opinion is WRONG, because obviously Anakin murdering little kids like animals is not a mercy. Anyone with any type of heart and soul should be able to realize that. What Anakin did is not and will never be a “mercy”. It was a cruel and dehumanizing act towards kids who were begging for his help. What would ACTUALLY have been mercy is what I stated before: Anakin snapping out of it to save the kids and lead them out of the Temple to save their lives. THAT is mercy. The only reason you continue to spout this BS argument that is common among rabid Anakin fans is to try and twist yourself into knots to deny Anakin agency and pretend he had “no choice” but to kill the kids for “mercy”, when it’s clear that this opinion of yours and anyone else who believes it is gross, immoral, and just plain wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It’s as simple as that.

Anakin WAS taught to understand, accept and manage his emotions correctly. That’s LITERALLY what “control” means: MANAGING your emotions so you don’t lash out at people in your anger, which is what the Jedi always warned their members against doing. The only difference here is that you just don’t agree with their beliefs, and are inadvertently portraying them as a culture who “suppresses” their emotions, when from the movies and TCW show it’s obvious that you and anyone who has this opinion is wrong. 🤷‍♀️ There are literally scenes that show it’s about being MINDFUL of your emotions so you don’t let them control you. Not to pretend they don’t exist. Anakin had all of these Jedi teachings available to him. The only difference is that he thought he was above the rules and that they didn’t apply to him. All of which eventually bit him in the ass, because he refused to listen to anyone and be told “no” without getting angry.

Qui-Gon was kind to Anakin, and Anakin had a fondness for him, but it is NOT canon that if Qui-Gon lived Anakin wouldn’t have fallen. That’s just a fanon theory that fans pretend is canon. You know how I know this? Because if you look it up, George Lucas straight up SAYS in interviews that Qui-Gon living wouldn’t have changed anything for Anakin not falling to the Dark Side. The “Duel of the Fates” is just what the song writer titled the song as a metaphor for the fight between light and darkness, but that doesn’t mean that because Qui-Gon died it was impossible for Anakin to grow a brain and a conscience and make choices of his own. GL literally knows better, because he’s the writer, which is what SW fans always say, right? Because anyone that believes that Qui-Gon dying “sealed Anakin’s fate” is simply using it as another copout/excuse for Anakin’s actions to pretend like all of his choices weren’t his own fault. Obi-Wan was a fine teacher for Anakin, and just because he wasn’t perfect didn’t mean he “failed” him. The truth is that Obi-Wan did everything he could, but Anakin refused to accept Obi-Wan’s help half the time. That’s on him and nobody else. He failed Obi-Wan. Not the other way around. Obi-Wan only thinks he “failed” Anakin out of misplaced guilt because he’s a better person than Anakin could ever hope to be who actually felt guilt for his actions, when Anakin in turn during that time at least felt nothing but entitlement and anger towards friends who wouldn’t join him on the Dark Side.

Dooku also doesn’t have any room to talk. He might’ve noticed corruption in the Senate, but the second Dooku joined the Sith and the Separatists and started helping enslave planets and killing people, he lost all credibility and became a big old hypocrite, just like Anakin became after ROTS.

So far, every single opinion you have given is just one excuse after another for Anakin’s actions to try and put the blame on someone else (usually the victims of his genocidal atrocities). And all of them are incorrect and immoral and wrong. 🤷‍♀️ Because half of it is genocide apologia or trying to twist Anakin’s actions from killing the younglings as “benevolent mercy”, when that is obviously WRONG and the biggest copout I have ever heard in my life. You also try to excuse Dooku’s actions, which is also wrong, because Dooku is a literal war criminal at the end of ROTS, so all of his opinions mean squat at that point, because he’d become the very thing he’d hated at that point, just like Anakin would eventually come to be from his own shitty choices. Therefore, every single thing you have brought up is not “facts.” It is simply an opinion that has become huge in fandom spaces because people like Anakin’s character and are biased against him and want to pretend he was a “poor little guy” who couldn’t make decisions, when it is clear there were a million other decisions he could’ve made.

I will then bring this around back to my original point: Leia Organa is not a “brat” for choosing not to forgive someone who was once one of the biggest monsters in the galaxy who TORTURED her (her own flesh and blood FATHER) just because Anakin might’ve had a hard childhood or a few people “being mean to him.” She doesn’t owe him anything, because specifically everything that had gone wrong in the galaxy up to that point was ANAKIN’S fault, and it is the LEAST he can do to kill Palpatine and fix it, so she doesn’t owe him anything for him killing the Emperor either. It’s great Luke found it in his heart to forgive Anakin, but it will NEVER be acceptable to call Leia a “bad person” for not forgiving Anakin, who is canonically the space Hitler (proven) of the Star Wars galaxy. She doesn’t owe him shit, and again: Anakin is lucky she didn’t spit on his grave.

Again: this doesn’t mean I hate Anakin’s character. But unlike you, when I like a character, I don’t need to excuse their every action to pretend they are “poor little guys.” Anakin was a horrible monster for most of his life, but I’m still GLAD he found salvation and peace in the afterlife. But he did NOT deserve it. He deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell, and I am under no delusions about that. He’s lucky the people around him (Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) are far better people than he ever was while he was alive and were able to find it in their hearts to offer him forgiveness, because he never showed them that same kindness or grace, and obviously didn’t deserve their love or loyalty. It makes it all the more saintly that they gave it to him.

You’re correct that I said earlier I didn’t want to continue this conversation because I feel like we’re going in circles. But if you’ll recall, I also stated if you kept messaging me then I would respond to the best of my abilities.

My final message to you on my points is the one I left before and also this following one, and then I will wish you farewell, considering we’re obviously never going to agree. Maybe someday someone will come across this thread and read my thoughts and see the logic in not believing genocide apologia is the theme of a CHILDREN’S series about hope. Either way, the conversation is basically finished. I’m not going to repeat everything I have said that discredits your points again, as nothing I’ve said has gotten through to you apparently. The reason in my last message I brought my point back around to Leia not being what you call a “brat” is because that was the original reason I replied to you to begin with. The other stuff in this final comment you send about Leia “owing” Anakin for her birth, which is why she “owes” him forgiveness is also wrong as well for all of the reasons I stated earlier. The parent argument is just another excuse because Anakin was a deadbeat dad. Lots of kids write off their terrible parents every day.

Every other thing you bring up about the Jedi and Mace and the Council has already been refuted by my points earlier to show them as incorrect, even if you don’t agree. The final thing is of course you repeating Anakin has no agency and shouldn’t be blamed because the Force had a “plan”, but again, I’ve already proven in my earlier messages that type of immoral and genocide apologia argument about it being his “destiny” to genocide the Light Side is wrong, because—again—Star Wars is a CHILDREN’S series at the end of the day, and it is completely illogical and absurd that “genocide is good, actually!” is the main theme of a CHILDREN’S trilogy about hope.

I will respond to you no further now. I am satisfied with the points I have made debunking your claims, and will definitely come back to this as a reference if I need to debate someone in the future. I will only leave you with a vague thanks that things managed to stay mostly civil besides us calling each other “strange”. But then again, I know we were both probably getting annoyed. Still, it’s a rare thing to have a mostly polite debate on the internet, so I’ll give credit where credit’s due. 👍 Goodbye, and hope your day is well.

As you can see, there’s a lot of genocide apologia in this guy’s arguments (literally disgusting), and there were times I got a little snippy (it gets frustrating defending genocide survivors over and over), but for the most part, I tried to be polite, because I wanted all my points to remain strong. If you are willing to listen to my perspective, I think you can admit some of his arguments echo your own, even if you’re obviously not as blunt and frankly gross about it as him.

Take the show The Acolyte, and how it’s supporters argue that it’s only “critiquing” the Jedi and showing them as “flawed”, which is what you wanted to get at when you sent this ask, no? To “make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad.” Well, my response is… why is that needed? You’ve seen all my points and examples about how being anti Jedi is the larger fandom opinion and how Order 66 is quietly thought to be partly “their fault”, which is literally one of the grossest opinions to have and I’ll never sugarcoat that. So, why is it NEEDED to point out their “flaws” with every post on how they didn’t deserve their genocide? Why does that matter? Why can’t it just be agreement: the Jedi didn’t deserve to be slaughtered like animals? Why is it “oh, but we must remember that they were flawedddd and complacenttttt. 😔💔 After all, if only they just hadn’t been mean to poor Anakinnnn. Then he wouldn’t have been ‘forced’ to help murder them all. 😔💔” Like… do you not HEAR how condescending that sounds? 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Why do the Jedi have to be the “perfect victims” for fans, otherwise they either “deserved what they got” or were “arrogant” and “brought it on themselves?” Why aren’t the MURDERERS/BETRAYERS blamed for the collapse of a galaxy (Anakin and Palpatine), when THEY were the ones responsible and who pulled the trigger? The point is that it’s frankly just weird how much certain fans bring up that “oh, don’t forget they were flawedddd! 🤪🤪🤪” on a post that is mourning the loss of their culture. I promise you that your “special little blorbos” Kanan and Ahsoka (the REAL her that hasn’t become Filoni’s mouthpiece) would probably not enjoy the way you describe them as “oh, but YOU’RE one of the good ones!” And I say that with all the politeness I can manage.

Funnily enough, the writer of The Acolyte, LH, kind of echoes your sentiments, which just aren’t as “benevolent” as you may genuinely believe. In her show, there’s no DEPTH or honestly real THEMES of SW put into the show. It’s all flipped around to the Dark Side being “liberating”, which is so far from true it’s literally laughable. 😭😒 And I’m getting ticked off that when genuine criticism from pro jedi fans come up, somebody just HAS to say—“This show is just portraying the Jedi as not perfect! 😌” 😬😤🫠 And I swear I’m gonna lose it one day, because it portrays the Jedi as more than imperfect. It portrays them as emotionally repressed, barely competent “space cops”. 🙄 (Fucking HATE that term antis use for them so much, because it’s what they argue about saying the Jedi ‘deserved’ their genocide because they’re an ‘institution’ and not a “real” family. 😬😬🤬🤬 Ohhhh, I’m gonna go off on someone one day. Lol.) And these are just my frustrations. It’s not personally directed at you at the moment, anon. It’s just me kind of venting all my thoughts on this post.

I even had a fairly decent comment on my tumblr post about my critique of The Acolyte from a fan trying to save it, and they basically said the same thing and that it’s from the Sith perspective so it’s skewed. But it’s not. 😭😭 Because the showrunner’s views literally mirror the villain’s and then they become her mouthpieces. The show is completely anti Jedi while trying to pretend in a condescending way that it’s only Jedi critical in a way like—“Ah, those poor little culty Jedi. 😔😔💔 Some had good hearts… but their culture doomed them to be wiped out… 😔💔” 😒🙄😤🤬

I just… fucking HATE that show. 😭 SO much. And I know certain fans loved it, so I apologize if people enjoyed at least certain parts, but I’ve read a tumblr post that broke down the show really well and how hollow it is. The characters barely have time to interact and get to know one another before they’re all killed off (Yord and Jecki and Sol, who were fan favorites), until only Osha and Quimir remain—because at the end of the day, THAT’S what this whole stupid show was about. 😭🤦‍♀️ It was about a Reylo fanfic writer getting to play in her sandbox.

Anyway, my point is I don’t think you’re “anti Jedi”, anon. I think you’re “Jedi critical”, yes. But not in the benevolent way you believe. I think you are unknowingly being benevolently condescending in the way The Acolyte tries to be by saying, “Ooohhh, those poor, culty Jedi. 💔😔😔😔 If only they weren’t so emotionally repressed like robots (dehumanization)… maybe then they could’ve changed their culture so they didn’t have to be ‘cleansed’ for a ‘better galaxy’. 😔💔💔” It’s just… stuff like that. 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️ Which is… SO exhausting for us pro Jedi fans to hear over and over and over like it’s a valid take, when it’s just really not. But I wanted to explain my thoughts in a way I hope was mostly polite. I probably sound a little bit snippy, but it’s just because I’m frustrated at having to defend genocide victims again. That��s all.

I guess I would just… encourage you to rethink your thoughts? Because when you take into account what the Sith/Empire represent (Nazis) and then what the Jedi genocide is a metaphor of… your ‘argument’ looks less and less cute. 🤷‍♀️😭 I’m just saying. Some may not like me comparing it to real life, but there are plenty of Asian fans/aroace fans/Jewish fans that heavily relate to the Jedi for this very reason, and I refuse to allow their opinions to be silenced, because fiction is for everyone, and SW has ALWAYS been political, which means it’s literally MADE to be compared to real life.

Anyway, I hope this long meta post maybe changed some minds, if not your own. I’m gonna leave links to other big pro Jedi blogs that have better and more organized meta posts than me about this stuff, where they go in depth explaining how the Jedi are the good guys and how what happened in the Prequels was never about “the genocide victims are in the wrong, actually!” and was more about the SENATE becoming corrupt and rotting democracy from the inside out, which made it so easy for Palpatine to slither into power. 10,000 Jedi aren’t gonna easily change that. But the politicians CAN. They were just too selfish to do so. The Senate/Sith are the real villains of the Prequel trilogy. Not the Jedi (literal genocide victims). Anything less than viewing it like this is just… wrong. 😭🤷‍♀️

Here are the big Pro Jedi meta blogs I talked about:

Tags:

@ensomnia

@heartfairy

@fangirlteallie

@shoniwake

@lemons-to-limes

@lexskiss

@spidersaye

@selenaftmarvel

@silverwoodj

@ajtaals

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utilitycaster · 20 days ago

Text

I truly have no patience for "criticizing a creative choice is disrespectful" as a statement. If you can't tell the difference between sending hate or harassing creators/fans, vs. saying "I didn't like this and here's why" you are an idiot. And on the flip side if you're a creator and someone says "I didn't like this" without any sort of personal attacks or hate involved, simply on the basis of critique and personal preference, and that makes you feel bad enough to stop creating then maybe you should step back and either get offline or make room for someone who has an actual creative vision that isn't "I want everyone to like me."

#queue #i feel like i keep saying this in different forms but #man. remember the weirdo with a wildly misinformed ogl take #one of their friends tried to get me to stop being like you can dislike this without making up weird lies #and ultimately sent me hate after i ignored multiple asks so i blocked them #and i checked them later and like. they were the sort of person who caved to every. single. anon. just groveled and cried and capitulated #and yeah the realization that they thought this was the CORRECT behavior to be spineless and without perspective #was truly a damn bitch you live like this? moment. like real talk anon hate cannot change my mind #because to be perfectly honest i perceive myself as so vastly superior to anyone who sends anon hate it's like taking direction from an ant #(considerate and polite anons with reasoned statements? yeah i'll listen but like. if you just don't like me. sounds like not my problem.)#like. obviously criticism doesn't FEEL good it's not SUPPOSED to but if it's an argument and not an ad hominem attack? it's valid #and an artist worth their salt should be able to understand this is how the world works. get offline if you're upset - that's valid!#you're allowed to AVOID it. you just lack the power or right to shut it down.

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clanwarrior-tumbly · 9 months ago

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Cant help but notice krubus stardew in the requests,,, so if i may,,,

How about a oneshot/headcanons, whichever ya think works better, for a farmer Reader who's roommates with Krobus, and Shane ends up visiting the farm, and accidentally finds Krobus and the reader is trying their best to calm the situation down or smthn? :]

Ofc you dont have to do this!!

Salt anon (have a good day also!!! always lovely to see ya on my dash :] )

YES MY TWO FAVES <3333

Got carried away but I had so many ideas for this one

.......

'I should check the coop. The void chicken could be hungry, and [y/n] may appreciate me stepping up. But...what if a human saw me? Oh Yoba...I hope there's no surprise visitors today..'

As Krobus paced around your cabin, he kept looking outside the window at the snowfall, the coop just within his sights. It was the second day of winter, and all of the animals you've been raising were huddled inside for the season, the hay keeping their bellies full.

But something told him that the void chicken you recently introduced to the farm felt lonely, a misfit among the "normal" chickens. She wasn't too sociable around them, and that worried Krobus.

Of course he, of all people, could understand why.

To this very day, the shadow monster couldn't fathom why you'd take him into your home..when his existence alone scared humanity and could damage your reputation with the town.

What would the villagers think if they learned you're housing a beast who once dwelled in the mines?

Many weren't anywhere near as brave as you were when it comes to venturing deep into shadow monster territory....and the few who had the guts to made it their personal mission to slay as many of his people as possible.

Or at least..what remained of them after the elemental wars.

Surprisingly enough, some of the brutes began visiting your farmland at night, and Krobus would see them hiding in the foliage, behind trees..or even rummaging through your crops, yet never taking anything for themselves.

He wishes he could greet them normally, ask what drew them to the surface, or try to reason that you're a good human who shouldn't be attacked.

Yet in the back of his mind...he feared being branded a traitor for siding with the species that hurt so many of his own people.

What would they do if they noticed his pendant and realized a human gifted it to him?

Surely they would freak out, coerce him into coming back to the mines where it was "safe"...or worse, they'd kill you and make him watch. He couldn't let his presence be known, lest they discovered you were housing him and destroyed the life you built here.

You would think he betrayed you and brought a siege upon your land--after all you've done to shelter him from the cruelty of the world.

Not even Yoba would forgive such a sin.

Even though he felt his connection with his people drifting with each passing week, he was content with his choice to live with you. He wouldn't trade your kindness and generosity for the world.

Plus, you've told him over and over that you knew what you were signing up for. You knew it when you first bought a void egg from him. You knew it when you and the wizard broke up his fight with Dwarf. You knew it when you created a space in your home that suited his environmental needs.

All he could offer you was a stardrop in return, but it was more than enough for you.

Krobus vowed to contribute to the farm's many tasks how ever he could..when it safe for him to step outside of course.

On this cold winter's day, he figured checking out the coop would be a great first step.

He peeked into your bedroom, discovering you to be sound asleep and looking rather peaceful.

Indeed, it was a stark contrast to how battered and bruised you were last night, having returned from the Skull Caverns at midnight. None of his people ventured there, considering the desert climate would be unbearable for them to live in, but while sharing meals he'd listen to your tales of serpents, mummies, and even dinosaurs living down below.

By comparison..the monsters in the mines seemed tamer and were somewhat civilized, and at his request you managed to avoid fighting them if you could.

The beasts you encountered in the Skull Caverns were brutal and unforgiving, and you had no choice but to defend yourself.

This trip in particular took quite a toll on your body, as you had to use a warp totem to get home...and even then, you were limping from sheer exhaustion. So much so Krobus had to assist you up the stairs and into your bed. He ran the the risk of being seen, yet his concern over your health took priority.

Sleep didn't easily come for him, but it only did after he prayed and thanked Yoba for bringing you home.

He didn't like the idea of you pushing yourself to work so early in the morning, so he decided he'll help lighten that load.

Starting with the coop.

Opening the door, he breathed in the crisp winter air, relieved to not see any humans in sight. There was your pet, who was initially frightened by his sudden arrival, but now warmly greeted him as they climbed the steps.

Krobus laughed softly, crouching down to pet them. "Good morning, little one." He whispered. "Enjoying the snow? I like it very much..but I can't say our chicken friends will agree."

He stood and continued on his way to the small building, eager to check up on your animals and see to it that they're fed.

But unbeknownst to him, a human arrived onto your farmland at that same moment, only seeing a dark figure creeping into the coop.

And he just so-happened to be the man who cared for chickens more than life itself.

......

Shane arrived at your farm, holding a small envelope with a letter inside. It contained a recipe for some dessert--not one that he made or discovered, of course, but rather one he tore out of a magazine.

His first thought was of you, knowing you liked gathering fresh produce and made your own meals..compared to him, a lazy bum who microwaves processed garbage in a plastic dish and called it "dinner."

It wasn't much, but it was the least he could do for a friend who pulled him out of such a dark place..

You were taking a shortcut to the sewer when you found him near the cliffs...where he was truly at his lowest. He doesn't remember much of what he said, but you told him that he considered ending his own life, yet changed his mind after you told him some comforting words.

All the strength you've gained down in the mines allowed you to drag him to the hospital, where you stayed by his side the entire night. Even when Harvey assured you he'll be okay, you refused to abandon him.

Shane never thought anybody in this town would care if he just up and disappeared, yet despite his rudeness towards you...you managed to break down his walls and show him that you cared.

And all it took were some peppers, pizza, eggs, and stupid amounts of persistence.

It really hit him that he almost did something he couldn't reverse..and he never wanted you, Jas, or Marnie to see him get that bad again.

So he promised to make some serious changes, see that counselor Harvey recommended to him, and cut back on the hours he spends at the saloon after work.

The last time you both talked, you mentioned Robin upgrading your coop's space, and Shane was thrilled. So he figured he'd come visit and see how the animals were doing in this cold weather.

He was also curious about that "void egg" you got from a merchant...and he wondered who it was if not Marnie.

Obviously he'd feel like a jerk if he came emptyhanded, or awkward if you weren't actually home right now, thus he decided to bring the letter and recipe just in case. A small surprise "gift" for you to come back to later.

As he approached your mailbox, however, he noticed a dark figure opening the door to your coop. He couldn't tell who it was as they quickly went inside, as though afraid of being seen.

Maybe it was the lack of sleep making him see things, but-

"Huh? What kinda tracks are these..?" He looked down, finding footprints in the snow that didn't belong to any human's.

In fact, they seemed to have clawed toes..

Just like a monster's.

At the saloon, you recounted tales of how you've encountered slimes, plant monsters, bats, and even shadow creatures on your farmland at night--as well as your adventures down in the mines with skeletons, ghosts, and more.

Most of the regulars were 99% certain you were drunk, but others believed your stories and were fascinated by them, as you'd show them gems as proof of your excursions. Sebastian in particular was intrigued by the frozen tear you discovered, flattered that you allowed him to keep it.

Shane, on the other hand, merely dismissed your tales with a "buh" and an eyeroll before sipping away at his beer. He was never a strong believer in the supernatural..convinced that only slimes, rock crabs, flies, and bats dwelled in the mines and nothing else.

Living Skeletons? Metal Heads?? Shadow Shamans???

You HAD to be either drunk, on drugs, or both at the same time.

Although he's become more open-minded to your stories since befriending you, he was still skeptical...yet the footprints he was seeing in the snow didn't match up to any animal he knew in the valley.

Whatever it was, it must've figured out that your coop was an all-you-can-eat-buffet.

That thought alone made him break out into a cold sweat, picking up a stone before rushing towards the building. He didn't hear any noise inside, and that made him all the more concerned.

You helped him when he needed it most, and now he'll repay you by defending your chickens...even though he knew nothing about fighting monsters.

Upon opening the door, he was stunned to find a shadowy humanoid creature holding your void chicken in its arms. It had a goopy smile on its face, looking down at the bird-

Before there was a furious shout.

"HEY! Put that chicken down!"

.........

"HEY! Put that chicken down!"

Just as you were tuning into the Oracle's channel on TV, you were startled by the sound of Shane yelling at someone-

Wait..

'What's Shane doing on my farm? And at this hour, too?? I thought he sleeps in all the time..' Your eyebrows furrowed as you looked around the house.

"Krobus? You in here? I may have a visitor."

No response.

You checked the monster's room, and sure enough didn't find him in there.

Normally he'd freak out and hide beneath your bed if he even caught a glimpse of a human outside. You'd always tell him ahead of time if a friend was coming to visit just so he knew when and how long to stay hidden.

Of course, you never liked having to keep Krobus a secret, yet you understood why he believed that was for the best. He was so, so afraid to go with you even after gifting him the void ghost pendant--a precious amulet from his culture, symbolizing unity and devotion to another.

His worst fear was you being shunned and getting hurt because of him. But you promised to make things work, and so far you've had no problems.

The only other place he'd go besides your cabin was the coop, having grown fond of the animals there and the void chicken you were raising. The winter allowed him to bond with them.

But if he's there right now..and you just heard Shane yell, then-

'Oh fuck.'

Throwing on your boots and jacket, you rushed out the door, damn near slipping on the pathway to the coop.

You opened the door, finding Shane staring down your terrified roommate with anger, ready to throw a stone at who he believed was a monster trying to eat your livestock.

But as he reeled his arm back, he was confused by your hand grabbing his wrist. "Huh?! Hey! Let go!" He grunted.

"Shane, what the hell are you doing?!"

For a moment, he blinked and stared at you as though you had several heads. "What does it look like? I'm....that thing was trying to eat your chickens!" He pointed to Krobus, who was now curled up in the corner, having let go of the void chicken long ago.

"That's one of the monsters you were talking about, right? Don't you have a sword or something that could-?"

"He's not a threat."

Shane froze. "..huh?"

"His name is Krobus. He's a shadow person I met in the sewers." Letting him go, you opted to stand between the two. Krobus immediately got up and latched onto your shirt, hiding behind you for protection.

"The sewers? Jas and Vincent said they saw a monster through the grates, but I thought it was some imaginary friend."

"Well news flash, he's real. And right now he's more scared of you." You huffed. "Now please..put the rock down."

After some hesitance, he complied and dropped the stone. "Fine..sorry. I thought it--he was trying to-"

"I would never harm one of Yoba's precious creatures!" Krobus snapped, despite his voice trembling. "Especially not one that [y/n] so lovingly raised."

"You...understand what I'm saying?" Shane looked astonished.

"Of course.." The shadow monster calmed down a little, but redirected his anger to you. "You..we had an agreement. You promised to tell me if someone was coming."

"I didn't know he was here at all." You frowned. "You could've told me you were checking out the coop."

"But you were so weary from last night, and I thought you'd appreciate sleeping in-!"

"Look..if it helps, I can just leave and pretend none of this ever happened."

Both of you looked at Shane, who was slowly making his way to the door, only for him to stop as you sighed.

There's no way you could hide this now..

"Stay. This isn't something you can "pretend" never happened. Let's all head back to my house and I'll explain everything. Maybe we can come to an understanding without any violence. Whatdya say, boys?"

Shane and Krobus briefly glanced at each other, before silently nodding.

.........

"So basically...you got chased out of your home by Dwarves, had some great war with them, got cozy in the sewers...and [y/n] just...stumbled upon you?"

"Erm..slight correction, the local librarian had a key to the sewers, which [y/n] obtained. And only then they stumbled upon me-"

"After I donated like 60 artifacts to the museum, of course." You added on as you stood by the oven, watching the timer.

For a brief moment, you looked back at the two people sitting awkwardly at the table:

Shane, who was still wondering if the shadow monster sitting across from him was really a monster, a hallucination from his withdrawals, or just..someone in a SUPER convincing costume.

And Krobus, who stared at this scruffy, tired man who desperately needed a shave and a new jacket--the only other human he's spoken to aside from you and Rasmodius.

"Wow..I'd say I need a drink, but um..I'm in recovery right now. So I gotta cut back on those." Shane admitted, scratching awkwardly at his hair. "Do you like living on this farm with [y/n], Krobus?"

"It was...a difficult transition. Something I never expected to happen." He fidgeted with the pendant around his neck. "Our existence..terrifies humans. They attacked us when we came to the surface to make peace, so we stopped and hid back underground. We learned the world wasn't kind to those who were different. But [y/n] showed me that not all of them are like that...and I'm grateful for all they've done for me. I don't regret my choice.."

Then he looked to you, suddenly bashful. "A-As long as they don't regret it, of course..sometimes I feel like all of this is a dream. Or some foolish prank.."

"It's no dream or prank, Krob. I have no regrets becoming your friend." You smiled and patted the monster's head reassuringly, before glancing at Shane. "Just like I don't regret befriending this guy."

"Yeah..I was uh..in a pretty bad place myself." He mumbled, suddenly finding the weather outside more interesting.

"You said your name was "Shane", right?"

He blinked, looking back to Krobus. "Uh yeah?"

"Did you know that means "gift from Yoba"?" His eyes lit up, smiling from ear-to-ear as he clasped his hands together. "You should be proud of it! You are a blessed child of.....um...what's with that look?"

Shane's expression abruptly shifted to one of discomfort, and he couldn't help but shrink back. "Did..I say something wrong? W-Was I out of line?"

"No, no. I probably should've mentioned this sooner, but I'm actually atheist."

"....as in...you don't believe in Yoba?"

Reluctantly, Shane nodded and averted his gaze once more, expecting some kind of lecture or change in his friendly tone that would make this his first and last conversation with him.

Nobody liked it when he mentioned how he stopped believing in Yoba long ago, especially after what happened with Jas' parents and how his life just plummeted into a downward spiral since then. He feels like his name was cruel joke, and he had a pit in his stomach whenever he was reminded of it.

So now he was fully expecting this devout monster to spew something vile and call him a "horrible nonbeliever"-

"Why the guilty face?"

"..wha?" He did a double-take, seeing Krobus' smile return.

"I've observed humans long enough to understand their religious preferences, or lack thereof. We have our beliefs, and you have yours..and that is okay." He reassured. "No need to feel ashamed, Shane."

It took the man a few moments to process his words..before a small smile appeared on his face as well, shoulders less tense than before. "Whew..thanks. Seriously..you're somehow more understanding than all the people in my life." He chuckled dryly.

Krobus was about to respond, when the ding from your kitchen timer made the two pause their conversation, seeing you take something out of the oven.

It was a dessert that had a shimmering purple hue.

"Oh hey..you actually made it?" Shane blinked. "The infamous "Strange Bun"?"

"Yep! It actually looks pretty.." You smiled, setting it on the stove so it could cool down. "I almost don't wanna eat it...but I'm sure we can split it three ways."

"I recognize that dessert." Krobus gasped. "It's considered a delicacy among my people! How I've longed to taste it again....but how did you come to possess its recipe?" He looked to Shane, who simply dug out a crumpled magazine page from his pocket.

"Right here. It looked good, and [y/n] likes cooking stuff and finding the ingredients themselves..so I figured it's something new they could try."

"And it came out fantastic." You chuckled, bringing over plates of the strange bun and sitting down at the table, passing them to your friends. "Dig in, boys."

While Krobus was actively drooling and devouring it with his bare hands, you took a few bites and instantly felt rejuvenated....whereas Shane kept awkwardly poking at it with a fork, eyebrows furrowed.

"You sure this is safe to eat? Like..I'm not gonna keel over, am I?"

"...you're acting like Jas when she doesn't wanna eat her vegetables."

".....shut it." With a grumble, he rolled his eyes before finally taking a couple bites. You and Krobus watched him in anticipation, studying his reaction.

Only to be met with disappointment.

"Eh..I think I'll stick to frozen pizzas, but thanks. Here. It's all yours." He pushed the half-eaten bun towards Krobus, who gleefully finished it up.

"Thank you..this was delightful." The shadow monster swallowed, looking up at you both, frowning slightly. "But I do fear..now that one more person knows of my existence, word may spread to the town and-"

"I won't tell anyone."

"....really?" He looked at Shane, surprised.

"I used to not believe in "shadow people"..I actually thought you guys were just stuff of fiction. But no, you're actually pretty cool. And...I get that feeling of being stuck in a dark place, thinking you're a pest and a burden who has no future to look forward to. It sucks, but [y/n] here..." He paused and gestured to you with a smile. "They pulled me out of that funk, and it seems they'd pulled you out of one, too."

"They have..I-I find this hard to believe, but it seems we have more in common than I first thought." Krobus chuckled softly. "I'm glad we could come to an understanding, and that you embrace my existence, Shane."

"Yeah, uh...glad you can..embrace mine as well." He mumbled, already kicking himself mentally for how weird that sounded. "But tell me..you like caring for chickens, too? I saw that one with the black feathers and red eyes."

"Indeed, that is a void chicken! I've carried their eggs for ages, but the mines weren't suitable enough to raise chicks in. Then [y/n] showed me the coop, and now I know they're in good hands."

"Ah...did you wanna meet Charlie sometime? Or one of my blue chickens?"

"......chickens can be blue?" Krobus had such a starry-eyed look, as though he had just been told the secrets of the universe.

Meanwhile, you were just cleaning the dishes, listening to their conversation delve into chicken care, eggs, and more. And you could only smile, glad to see that your monster roommate was finally warming up to humans.

Only a select few will get to see him, as you didn't wanna compromise his safety...

But for now, Shane is the only one you could trust.

#clanask #salt anon #stardew valley x reader #sdv x reader #sdv shane #sdv shane x reader #sdv krobus #sdv krobus x reader #platonic #the only connection these fellas have is the 'strange bun' and once i figured that out-#i got back on track to writing this heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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bobbinalong · 2 months ago

Note

concerning fitzmartin's line of tim saying bernard showed him there is more to him than he was settling for and brings out the real me, is that an attack on his past romance and saying he was settling for them or more talking about being queer and discovering that

I mean, I certainly read it as a sort of attack (though I think "attack" might be a bit too strong a word) because Fitzmartin hasn't shown respect for the, out-of-universe, near 30 year long relationship Tim had with a woman or, in fact, the woman in question. Tim breaks up with Stephanie off-panel, we never get her feelings on the matter anywhere and when Fitzmartin does write her, it's as a prop for Timber. I mean just look at this:

Tim Drake Pride Special

and tell me the author cares for or respects Stephanie Brown as a character.

I also resent the implication that Tim couldn't have been his best queer self with Steph because she'd absolutely fully accept him. And he's not gay, he's bisexual, he's still attracted to women.

So why is being with a woman "settling" when he was previously talking about her like this:

Young Justice (2019) #5

Young Justice (2019) #8

Detective Comics (2016) #940

Detective Comics (2016) #963

Tim loved Stephanie. He was in love with Stephanie. She was his last thought before dying and he was committed to a future with her. There wasn't even a hint of a crack in their relationship prior to Urban Legends, in fact, I'd argue they were at the happiest and healthiest they'd maybe ever been.

So yeah, to me, Tim talking about "settling" and not being able to be himself before Bernard is 1) bullshit and 2) an attempt by the author to downplay his previous relationship. I don't really care to give her the benefit of the doubt.

#dc #dc comics #bobbinasks #anon #timsteph #stephanie brown #tim drake #this is NOT about tim being bi i love him being bi #it also isn't necessarily about timber bc i don't really know anything about timber except that the way they came about fucking sucks #which killed all my interest in them on arrival #it isn't even really about them breaking up bc that could've been handled well. MAYBE #it's about fitzmartin being a hack #also sorry if this is disjointed lol i'm sorta tired and i kept forgetting i was writing this #does this count as #fandom wank #or is it more so just #salt #idk lol

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varpusvaras · 2 months ago

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Friend, I am frothing at the mouth over your protective!Roy snippets. The way you had him go to tend to Jason's helmet, only to then piece together he was hit outside of true combat, by Batman, his father...ughhh. And the way he KNOWS every scratch on said helmet! That is love. God. Like, consider me obsessed.

I would read 100k words of this little jayroy world you've carved, if I could. I hope you continue to post about this particular version of them. 🥰

I will admit (this comes as news to probably pretty much no one who has read my stuff before lmao) I am a sucker for protective characters in relationships. Like that is the number one thing that gets me going. I will be writing it in. Roy and Jason both do display protectiveness and isn't that the good stuff. Roy especially is just such a perfect character to me in so many ways (just by himself, not just talking in ships). He is loving and soft and gentle and fierce and strong and emotional but stable at the same time (yes it makes sense if you look at him). I am a firm believer that Roy is the character who has all the rights to beat up shitty parents for free. He would be able to see that yes, Batman is someone who does a lot of good and isn't a bad person per se, but it's still not okay. It's not okay. One reason I like jayroy is that they just narratively complete each other as individuals in many ways, and I think Roy being someone who can actually see Jason and be so protective of him is a goldmine regarding them. Good stuff, good stuff indeed.

I would absolutely write that 100k for you in a heartbeat if I had just a little more time (hopefully things become a little less hectic after the New Years, I say, as my Master's Thesis is looming over my shoulder, reminding me that I need to write it too-), but I am going to continue giving smaller bits for ya'll in here because I am frankly just as obsessed. Seriously, I am in trouble.

#I also use all the little snippets and ficlets to keep my writing habits up when I can't write longer pieces #anyway protective characters are my salt sugar and butter #and this turned into my very brief roy harper simping rant lol #he deserves it tho #thank you nice anon <3 #dc #dcu #jayroy #jason todd #abuse mention

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miraculouslbcnreactions · 3 months ago

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Wait, I was reading your posts and came across something I've found confusing. How is Adrien asking Ladybug wth she is doing in Volpina a bad thing? From Adrien's perspective, Ladybug's a celebrity tracking down a middle schooler with zero clout and humiliating her for lying about meeting her before. That's, uh yeah? Imagine if that happened irl lmao. Millions of teenage girls would perish at 1D's hands. My middle school would be a horror story. And it's made clear multiple times in the episode that her motivation is jealousy. It's one of the few episodes where the lesson Marinette gets makes sense I think, because she was genuinely spiteful in shitting on this random girl in front of her crush. That's significantly different than Ladybug just asking for a retraction from the Ladyblog. It's also one of the few times when Adrien's celebrity background actually affects how he acts, and it makes sense that Marinette doesn't make the connection between superhero=celebrity=not allowed to scream at middleschoolers in public. If half the kids in her school didn't lie about meeting Ladybug before, my suspension of disbelief is gone.

I've seen this argument before and it makes no sense to me, especially in the context of the lie that Lila actually told and the way the Lila confrontation actually goes down. A lot of people who have this take seem to think that Lila's lie was, "Ladybug saved me," and that Ladybug made a big public confrontation which is not what canon actually gave us. The confrontation was done in a mostly private setting and, while we never see Lila's full Ladyblog interview, this is how Ladybug sums up the interview in Volpina:

Ladybug:(sarcastically) Well hey Lila! How's it going? Long time no see. I saw your interview on the Ladyblog, awesome job. Oh sure! I remember our instant connection when I saved your life and we've been really good friends ever since! Practically BFF's! Uh actually, when did I save your life again, Lila? I don't recall. Oh yes! Of course, now I remember. Never! And we're not friends either! Miss Show-Off here was trying to impress you and everyone around her.

Lila didn't just lie about meeting Ladybug, she lied about having an ongoing, close relationship with Ladybug, two very different things. And Ladybug isn't just a celebrity, she's a superhero who is fighting an active terrorist. If I had to rewrite this confrontation, I'd keep it pretty much the same and just change the "Miss Show-Off" line to something like:

Miss Show-Off here was trying to impress you and everyone around her, putting herself and all of you at major risk! You know that Hawkmoth would do anything to get these, right? (gestures at her earrings) Did you even stop to think about what he'd do if he learned the identity of my supposed best friend? Of course not. You were too busy trying to look cool to stop and think things through like an actual superhero! We keep our identities and relationships secret for a reason!

Is this the kindest, most gentle way to confront someone like Lila? No, but it's very in character for Marinette to be filled with righteous fury when she sees someone using her name for their own personal gain. I really can't blame her for getting incredibly angry at this total stranger presenting herself as a Ladybug authority and using that authority to manipulate Marinette's friends. As I've said before, take away the crush complication and Marinette's actions still make total sense to me.

I'm not a huge proponent of virtue ethics. That's the idea that you need proper motivation for an act to be morally justified. If you do the right thing for the wrong reason, then the act is bad no matter how good the results and vice versa. If you view the world that way, then sure, you could possibly argue that Marinette's actions were wrong just like you can also argue that Gabriel's actions were totally fine, but I don't view the world that way. Switch Marinette's motivation from jealousy and a little righteous fury to pure righteous fury and almost nothing changes. She'd still need to confront Lila, the words would just be a little different.

It's not like this confrontation stops Lila, either. Chameleon gives us this:

Lila: (in flashback) Not only did Ladybug save my life, we've become very close friends. Marinette: She lies with every breath. Nino: Wait. You eavesdropped on Lila and Adrien? That's not cool. Alya: A good reporter always verifies her sources. Can you prove she doesn't actually know Ladybug?

Quick mini rant before I give the next Chameleon quote: this isn't how verifying your sources works, Alya! You should be verifying that Lila does know Ladybug, not the other way around! Right now, Marinette and Lila have equal authority on the topic as far as you know and there is no evidence to support either claim, so you should be looking for proof that Lila isn't lying! Proof isn't a first come, first serve problem even though a lot of people fall into that trap. This is especially true since Lila goes on to make claims like this:

Lila: Of course Ladybug saved my life. She never misses an opportunity to rescue her best friends. Max: Didn't your tinnitus give you vertigo when you went up the Eiffel Tower? Lila: Oh no. Ladybug knows me so well that she brought me an earplug to stick in my right ear.

So Lila keeps right on lying about her relationship with Ladybug, presenting them as close friends, making it even harder for me to get on the "Marinette was in the wrong for privately confronting Lila" train. If anything, Marinette was too tame! She needed to go full scorched earth and have Alya post a public retraction that included a message about the dangers of claiming to be personal friends with someone you don't actually know.

If the show went that route and had Ladybug give an equally furious smack-down and Alya posted it without a second thought, THEN I'd probably be on team "Marinette needed to tone herself down because she went too far" because that isn't a heat-of-the-moment reaction. It's something Marinette would have time to think through. But Volpina didn't go there. Instead, we just get Marinette reacting live to someone using her name to flirt with her crush. Remember, this is the setup to Marinette transforming and jumping in to stop Lila:

Lila: Not only did Ladybug save my life, we've become very close friends because we have something very special in common- it's what I wanted to tell you about. I'm the descendant of a vixen superheroine myself, Volpina. Adrien: Volpina? Marinette: Volpina? Adrien: Wait a minute! I think I read about her in my book. Lila:(stopping him from grabbing the book) Of course she's in your book. She's one of the most important superheroes. More powerful and more celebrated than Ladybug. Between you and me Ladybug doesn't even make the top ten. My grandma gave me this necklace. [Marinette runs off to transform] Adrien: (holding Lila's necklace) Are you telling me this is a Miraculous?! (Ladybug lands in front of them)

This wasn't a planned confrontation. It was Marinette reacting live to some pretty massive lies. If Ladybug had been swinging by and just overhead this, then the scene once again wouldn't change much. That's why blaming Marinette for confronting Lila in the "wrong way" feels so victim blame-y to me. "How dare Ladybug not be perfectly poised at all times and react with grace when someone lies about being her close friend and teammate!" is not a take I'm ever going to agree with. And if you want to use the middle schooler defense? Then it applies to Marinette, too. She and Lila are the same age. Why the different standards just because Marinette has fame that she never asked for or sought out?

I've never been much of a fan of holding celebrities to an "always on" standard where their every interaction needs to be done with poise and grace even if the interaction happens out in the wild and not at a planned even where the celebrity can be mentally prepared for dealing with fans. That's extra true for accidental celebrities like Ladybug. Marinette didn't take up the earrings for fame and they certainly haven't brought her fortune, plus she has no PR training. Expecting her to be a PR master who knows how to handle her accidental fame is, once again, a little too victim blame-y for my tastes. Ladybug is here to save the world, not sign autographs. You can hold her to politician standards when you start paying her for risking her life on the daily.

There's a version of Lila where I would have a different take. A version where the lie really is minor and Marinette really did "overreact", but even there my lesson wouldn't be "Marinette was totally in the wrong" because I genuinely think that sends the wrong message to kids and kids are the show's target audience. Think about what you're actually saying here, "Because Marinette is famous, she needs to accept that people will lie about her and just ignore them even if people believe the lie."

While that isn't exactly a wrong take, it's still really messed up. It's not okay for people to use Marinette's name like that just because she's famous. The reason she needs to learn to let it go is because that's what's best for her mental health, not because her fame makes her lesser than others when it comes to things like personal privacy. The lies are not magically okay just because she's well known.

Remember, Marinette is a fictional character, but the kids watching this show are very real and they're way more likely to be Lilas than Marinettes. And the kids that do relate to Marinette in this episode? They'll be kids who have dealt with the rumor mill spreading lies about them or their friends without the celebrity complication. The show should not be telling either set of kids that Marinette is the one in the wrong here. That is the wrong moral and why I hate this episode so much. I might feel differently if the intended audience was teens and if this plot was allowed to be more complex, but none of that is true. The show is aimed at kids ages 5 to 12 and every episode is supposed to teach its own moral with Volpina's moral being "Marinette was explicitly and totally in the wrong here."

This is the age of internet personalities where there are more easily-accessible celebrities than ever and where many of them do not have the wealth needed to protect themselves from fans nor the PR training to know how to handle extreme fans if there even is PR training for that! That means that it's honestly really important for kids to learn to view these individuals as people who it's wrong to lie about and who deserve the same respect as non-famous people. Treating celebrities as public commodities is how we get things like the Kit Connor scandal where an 18-year-old actor felt forced to publicly come out because the internet wouldn't shut up about his sexuality. Oh, and since you brought up one direction, I'll also note that the band members have publicly stated that online shipping discourse has negatively impacted their relationships. So, yeah, I'm never going to agree that kids should be told that it's okay to lie about celebrities or treat them as fictional characters to play with and that the celebrities are the ones who are wrong if they get upset about that behavior. That shit is toxic.

If we go the "minor" lie route, then my version of this episode would be a very sad one where Marinette learns that people are going to ignore her boundaries and lie about her and there's nothing she can do about it. A lesson in mental health training that will hopefully help kids who are dealing with bullies, but that does not present Marinette as totally in the wrong. It just teaches her when to pick a fight and when to let it go, which is a very important skill to learn even outside of lies about your own person. There will be many times when you hear people say something that you vehemently disagree with and it's important to learn when to pick a fight and when to just let it go, knowing that no good will come from speaking up even if you're 100% in the right. It's a very sad, but also very necessary skill.

I think Adrien has a place in that story. A place where he still tells Ladybug to let it go, but it should NOT have been played the way it was in canon where he acted like Ladybug was totally out of line. He needed to be way more compassionate and understanding of her very justified anger. I've written Adrien giving advice on this topic before and it's always presented as, "people are going to be assholes and you have to learn to ignore them for your own well being," not as, "you are wrong to be upset about strangers telling lies about you. You agreed to deal with this when you decided to be a hero" because what kind of asinine lesson is that?

You could also keep Adrien's canon reaction and have the lesson be him learning that it's okay to have boundaries. That his fame doesn't negate his bodily autonomy and right to be treated with dignity. That people chasing him down, invading his personal space, and otherwise preventing him from living a normal life is wrong. I love it when fanfics take this approach to Adrien's part in the Lila conflict. It's very cathartic to see his friends supporting him and protecting him from Lila.

I really have tried to see Volpina from the "Marinette was totally in the wrong" perspective because I've come across it several times, but I just can't wrap my head around it. If you've got a counter argument, then feel free to try to change my mind because I've given you my full thoughts here, but know that I'm probably not budging on this one. You'd have to make some pretty dramatic changes to canon for me to feel like this take has a point. I think the only way that I'd be on Lila's side is if it was very clear that no one believed Lila and Marinette still had the same reaction that we see in canon as that does feel like going too far. But everyone believed Lila so that's not a solid argument and I'm just never going to agree that people have to be cool with others lying about them just because they're famous. I honestly despise celebrity culture so much and hate that people are basically forced to deal with that bullshit if they want to be successful in certain artistic fields.

#anon ask #lila salt #ml writing critical #ml writing salt #volpina salt #ml's wacky morals

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