#Plural community has endos invading our space

[asterias-corner]

scrolling on ao3 on ANY *lgbtq Lu link* tag, is like fnaf cus i have to check tags before clicking on ANY fic, why?

l1nk c3st. Literally everywhere, wtf is up with yall 🙁 pls calm tf down

[sophieinwonderland]

An Endogenic Response to a Message Towards Endogenic Systems

Trigger Warning: Death Threats, Harassment, Cyberbullying, Ableism, Slurs, Hate Groups

@loafofcatbread

Aren't you one of the moderators of Aspen's server? You are, right?

You all specifically came onto this website to spread hate. Aspen said she wants to normalize cyberbullying endogenic systems. And you're using our tags to post hateful messages to our community because you want to hurt us. That's your intent in being here. Causing pain and suffering to other people for existing.

Why deny it and try to play victim?

Amazing how you accuse us of sending slurs and death threats while Aspen is calling us "Schizo." Specifically while bragging about using it as a slur.

And... you know we can see your reblogs, right Loaf???

And for death threats... we can also see YOUR LIKES!

Yes! We see you, Loaf! Just like we see Aspen!

We see your hypocrisy. We see your bullying. And we aren't going to tolerate it.

I don't know if any endogenic systems have been sending death threats or slurs in response to you all invading our spaces with the intent of hurting and bullying us. I haven't seen this happening, and I would strongly discourage anyone from stooping to your level.

But I DO know what you all have been doing.

You and your disgusting pals aren't allowed to play victim here! Sorry.

And for your talk of misinformation, I've yet to see anything even resembling a source for the claims your side have made. Anti-endos love to assert thing. They like to say whatever nonsense they can come up with as if it's a fact and then expect people just accept it.

But they can't cite in professionals who can back them up because none exist.

And when pro-endos respond with sources, the modus operandi of you all have been to throw slurs and ad hominems as Aspen did when she was sent a link to my post debunking her video.

Maybe you think you're educated because you got all your information of plurality from a popular Tiktoker with an inflated ego and no actual background in psychology or any sources to support her claims, but that's not education. That's indoctrination.

You and your hive have been indoctrinated.

Finally, over the years, I've seen countless traumagenic systems be attacked, bullied and fakeclaimed for being pro-endo, mixed origin or presenting in ways anti-endos deem unusual. And anti-endos, by their nature, encourage fakeclaiming. They encourage invalidating systems. And this has increased stigma of traumagenic systems, normalizing hate against systems of all types.

You are NOT an ally to traumagenic systems.

You're an ally to a hate group.

And it's so sad that you can't even see it...

[interstellar-cluster]

I’ma fucking traumagenic system who did multiple days and hours of fucking research before diagonosing myself with osdd1b

I know what plural is fuck head

You fucking aren’t

You’re a bitch playing pretend with imaginary friends in your head

Fucking cunt.

wow it’s almost like you create your own problems because the world kept fucking spinning. you’re walking proof that it’s actually you, the sysmeds and anti endos, that come into OUR spaces uninvited and harass US. Not the other way around.

You’re fucking pathetic. Take a good hard look at your life if you really think it’s okay to come to someone’s page and send hateful messages because you’re too fucking ignorant to do a bit of research on what endogenic plurality ACTUALLY is, because fucking surprise, researching OSDD is not researching all of plurality. You are only going to see medical shit.

And I don’t care if people self diagnose but hot take, if you do self diagnose and then you try to tell people that they’re doing plurality wrong, you’re a fucking asshole because you have no professional knowledge. You don’t know anything an actual doctor has told you, only the internet. And wow, a few days and hours? Try fucking years to get an actual BPD diagnosis and then have it misdiagnosed multiple times.

You obviously did fuck all research because you obviously have no idea what ‘plural’ means. Did you research on fucking Mayo Clinic or something? You are taking OUR terms and you are twisting them to your fucked up ideas. You are invading our spaces. You are pushing us out of the community that we are SO important in. Need I remind you that it was actually ENDO systems who pushed for medical professionals to do more research on plurality for YOU fuck heads? You are so fucking ungrateful for my community when we have done NOTHING. But, surely you must’ve researched that in your three days of research, right? 🥺 No you fucking didn’t because a few days of research is not enough to fucking diagnose yourself, let alone have someone else diagnose you.

You are nothing. You’re a weak, pathetic person whose life is so boring you have to armchair diagnose people when you’re not even professionally diagnosed yourself. You are an asshole. Get the fuck off my page. I hope you’re fucking ashamed of yourself.

Aw and they blocked me. How cute. What a fucking pathetic bitch.

And for any lovelies who see this that are self diagnosed with ANYTHING, I love you, you’re valid. It’s just idiots like this who think that it’s okay to tell people that their experiences are wrong ESPECIALLY when they’re self diagnosed, they don’t have any medical knowledge. Only the shit the internet gives you.

[the80srewinders]

We used to be pro endo, but we're not anymore. We've learned, we've grown. We've seen bad things from both sides- anti endo and pro endo. We took time away from the online plural community to do immense research into endogenic systems and have concluded there's no proof they exist, and the only proof they give into their existence is opinion or studies that don't involve brain imaging. They never cite real medical sources or scientific sources, and since plurality is neurodivergence, endogenic plurality would still be considered disordered. There is no such thing as non disordered plurality, even if endogenic systems are real. The endo community largely spreads misinformation by saying non disordered plurality is real. The brain does not just make alters, headmates, whatever just to make them. There has to be a reason, and if endogenic systems are real, then that reason is they're neurodivergent. Which is disordered. There's no such thing as "non disordered autism" and the same applies to systems. So the pro endo community lack of scientific proof and linking non medical articles is enough proof they're probably not real. Endos also are taking over the plural community, when its focus should be on DID/OSDD because its a real disorder with a century of misinformation to debunk and lots of stigma, the people who have it suffered immense trauma as children and have struggles in their daily lives singlets won't understand. Instead of making a strong tight knit community for DID/OSDD systems, literal childhood trauma survivors, endos and their supporters have made the whole plural community a place of instability, fights and side taking. They've made it into everything a safe place for neurodivergence shouldn't be, especially for a posttraumatic and highly stigmatized disorder. The community that should be helping DID/OSDD systems and ending stigma, ending stereotypes, spreading facts is damaging the DID/OSDD community, and if singlets think it exists. We have no proof endos are real, but they've came and invaded our community and ruined it. Now endos want to invade other spaces not even related to plurality- autism spaces, fandom spaces and lgbt spaces. They also steal DID/OSDD terms and other cultural religious terms and even invade religious spaces or beliefs with their "everything is plural! god is a system!" tricks. Sure, the anti endos who choose endos to bully and bait are toxic, but most endos we've seen are just as toxic, just not by blatant harassment. Endos are for appropriation, invasion and "pluralizing" everything. They also damage the DID/OSDD community in ways I'll have to write a guide or ted talk on. I may be neutral as far as if i think endos are real, but I'm definitely anti endo in the sense that i am against the endo community for their spread of misinformation and damage to the DID/OSDD community.

[rayssyscourse]

I'd like to clarify, when I say I am anti-endo, that doesn't mean I hate every endo system, etc. My issue lies not necessarily in the existence of non-traumagenic plurality, but the way it is presented.

The OSDDID community has the unique, and often extremely difficult, experience of having the brain forcefully cut itself off from itself (forgive the strange wording, lol) due to severe stress/trauma, and we live with heavy dissociation, amnesia, and many other trauma responses. It is a very difficult disorder to live with. That's not to say that endos never struggle with their plurality, but they do not have the experience of struggling with this disorder. OSDDID spaces and communities were created to support people with the disorder, to give them a place to talk about the rather unique struggles of having it, to share resources to help manage it, to bond and help each other with it.

Endogenic systems have come into our communities claiming to be the same as us, and that they should have a place in these spaces, despite not sharing the fundamental issues that the spaces were created to address/help with. Because of this, it has become increasingly hard--sometimes impossible--to find spaces where we as a traumagenic system can talk about these experiences solely to people who understand and can relate. These days, in most spaces traumagenic systems cannot talk in too much detail about the disorder and its (often scary or upsetting) symptoms, because the science and experiences aren't 'inclusive' of endos.

And yes, these spaces still exist. But they have become much fewer and farther apart, and are more and more likely to be put under fire and called exclusionary for restricting to just OSDDID systems. It has become absurdly difficult to find a space where we can talk about our disorder without censoring ourselves, and when those spaces do exist, there is a constant worry of being harassed for being exclusive just for talking about our struggles.

I would also like to add that I've heard every form of "not me though" when talking about this. If you are endogenic and you do not go into OSDDID spaces, this is not about you. I take issue with the community as a whole, because I feel it has become a general community-wide problem, but as I said in the beginning of this (stupidly long) post, I do not hate, or even really take much issue with, many individual endos.

I will say that the word endogenic has gained a connotation of being one of those who invade/impede on OSDDID spaces. So, I will take slight issue with people who align themselves with that terminology, because it implies that one agrees with, or is at least tolerant of, the actions generally associated with the word/the community it describes. The separation of systems into "traumagenic" and "endogenic" also implies that they are the same fundamental thing, just with slight differences in origin. However, I completely understand that a label does not define anybody's beliefs entirely, so that's not really a main problem in my eyes.

In my ideal version of this, endos would have their own community, defined as separate from the OSDDID spaces. I believe that the terminology should be more distinctly separated from that of OSDDID systems. There needs to be the understanding that endo and traumagenic systems, while sharing some similarities, are on a fundamental level different experiences. OSDDID systems should not have to be associated with the idea that they could/may have been formed without trauma or without the distress that the disorder causes, and likewise endos should not be associated with those aforementioned struggles.

I am not saying I think we need to completely divide ourselves or cut each other out. I see no problem with different types of plurals interacting with shared spaces or relating to/with each other. But the situation as it is right now causes harm to many traumagenic systems as it muddles the definition of who we are and puts less weight on the struggles we face, and takes away spaces that many of us take great comfort in. So, when I say I am anti-endo, I am saying not that I take issue with the concert of the existence of non-traumagenic plurals, but with the current community's idea that they are equatable.

I personally do not see how non-traumagenic plurality could work, because there is no science to it the way that there is for OSDDID. HOWEVER, research on plurality is still in its infancy, so that opinion is subject to change as more research is done. Most importantly, whether scientifically proven or not, I will not tell anybody that they are not experiencing plurality, endo or not, because I don't get to tell people about their own experiences. I will respect endos as long as they respect me, but right now, the situation is such that I feel the endo community as a general group is disrespecting us, so while I can respect individuals, I cannot fully respect the community as a whole.

Sorry for how long this got, lol. Thanks to anyone who actually read it all. Have a lovely day, everyone :)

[woodland-sys]

I'm still new to discovering I have a system (just got over that denial bridge a few weeks ago, and have been struggling mentally since (and before) then), and the system discourse online has been very... distressing? I want to lean into safe communities meant for learning about or exploring (my own) CDD, and find some sort of comraderie.

I don't understand what's happening really - I don't exactly understand endogenic systems, but I also don't understand why people would be anti-endogenic. It just seems... hateful. And purposeless.

I've seen tons of anti-endo posts (before I learned what endo meant) that made me terrified to lean too heavily into traumagen spaces (if they could say this about awful stuff about one group of people, what could they say about me? *it is very much a learned response from trauma, but it is what it is I guess*

I guess the point is to ask if you were ever anti-endo, and what has it been like since you started making pro-endo posts? I know it's silly, but I'm trying to figure all of this out and I'm terrified of receiving hate for refusing to hate someone because of how they identify

Thanks (and sorry for the book lol)

- Host

First I want to say it's not silly at all!! Being a newly discovered system is overwhelming and it's normal to want to have a community of those who understand you. It's also normal to want to avoid being harassed and fakeclaimed. I'm happy you reached out! This reply is going to be kinda long (sorry I tried to keep it short) but I did my best to address all your questions. I hope this helps! And I wish you the best on your new journey of self discovery!!

Second I would strongly recommend that you stay away from syscourse if you can. It's really draining and overwhelming even for us and we have a pretty good handle on our system. As a newly discovered system it's going to be even worse.

Unfortunately I don't have any specific recommendations for cdd focused spaces which accept endos (if anybody knows one put it in the replies!) but I will say that pro endo servers, even if they aren't focused on cdds can still be amazing for finding comradery. There will be other cdd systems there and you might find some endos who you relate to as well. Also if you want my dms are open! I'm just one person (well, not exactly) but I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have and suggest ways to help you figure out your system more!

As for why people are anti endo I think it mainly comes down to two things. First is that they think endos are saying they experience the same thing as cdd systems except without the trauma. Endos do not generally claim this*. Second is that people who've spent significant amounts of their lives under attack sometimes they start to see threats where there aren't any.

These systems have debilitating mental illnesses that are criminally misunderstood and romanticized. For them being a system is intrinsically linked with being deeply traumatized, they are not separate. So when they see a community of people claim to have systems but not trauma, they get upset. They feel like that's not possible, because it isn't possible to be a system like *theirs* without trauma. They get frustrated because they think people just want the "quirky" parts of their disorder without the painful ones. That's why they always say endos are faking did, because they can't imagine a system that doesn't have a cdd. They think endos are just people who want to feel special so they claim to have system. Once endos started becoming a part of the community, anti endos felt invaded because now there's a bunch of systems who don't have cdds in the space they thought was for them (keep in mind cdd focused spaces still exist, its just that the plural community as a whole isn't 100% focused on us anymore).

Once they feel invaded, they feel like they need to defend their community and they do that by harassing and fakeclaiming endos. Then they act like psychology is on their side (it isn't) and after that it's just increasing amounts of digging their heels in.

I think it mostly comes down to the misconception that endos claim to have did without the disorder part, and then in trying to defend themselves they turn off critical thinking and just do whatever they can to get rid of the perceived threat.

*There is a world of difference between the experiences of most endos and most cdd systems but it's not black and white. At this point the term "endo" just means anybody who is not completely traumagenic which includes mixed origin systems. Also, some endogenic systems develop cdds after being exposed to trauma, the only difference is that they were plural beforehand so they're still endogenic. There's others too. The main point is that the plural experience is incredibly personal and doesn't fit well into boxes, categorization is useful and it's important that people understand that in general there are real and big differences between endogenic plurality and cdds but there's no hard lines here.

[syscourse-confessions]

I just needed somewhere to put this, I refuse to introduce syscourse to my blog. thank you so, so much for making a space like this.

Honestly i just dont think endos and pw/cdds should have overlapping spaces like this. I don't think either side is like.. braining wrong or however you'd phrase that.

But to all endos, all non-traumagenic plurals, or whatever you'd like to call yourself: what you are experiencing is real and I believe you, but it is not comparable to this disorder. "System" "alter" are both words made for the effects of a disorder built on dissociation and caused by the trauma of a young child. It's the same reason I don't want kins and such posting in introject tags- they are not introjects, kinning is not comparable to being a fictional introject (I say this as a fictional introject, who used to be active in kinning communities and has alters that still are.) One of these things is caused by a complex, debilitating for many, childhood trauma based disorder built on dissociation and identity fragmentation. I'm sure endogenic plurals EXIST I do believe that but it isn't the same as this disorder, so please, please stop using terms made by our community to describe yourselves. You are taking something that does not apply to you. Dare I say, it's ableist. You are using words for my disability to describe something that may seem similar on the surface but is very different- just like kins calling themselves introjects or fictives.

AND this goes both ways! I am not endo so I won't make this section as in-depth, since i do not want to talk over them. Endos are still not singlets so I do believe they still face ableism and I don't want to contribute to that. To my fellow pw/cdds, wwe are not endo and should not use any of their terms to describe ourselves; we do not go through many of their experiences as these are fundamentally different things. I believe "fictive" and "headmate" are endo terms, so I don't use them to describe myself, aand I don't think other non-endos should either for the reasons above.

Like i said, i do still believe there's overlap. Like how kins, fictional introjects, and fictives can gather in similar spaces without claiming to be a part of each other's communities. (Okay people do use fictional introject and fictive interchangeably but I think you can still get what I mean, more or less). I don't think it'd be wrong to have an overarching term, maybe plural or multiple (I would prefer multiple but idk) or something new? We just need to stop invading each other's spaces, stop talking over one another, stop taking each other's vocabulary, and just admit that these things were never the same in the first place and we should consider ourselves very much separate, with tags and terms for the few overlapping bits.

sorry iif this sounds dumb but I have been thinking about it for a long, long time. Please stay safe, drink water, take a break from any syscourse stuff if it's stressing you out, etc. and have a nice day!!!

.

[sophieinwonderland]

Found a Hate Blog in The #Plural Tag. 😮‍💨

As I covered recently, "Plural" is an inclusive word with origins in endogenic and non-disordered systems.

If any anti-endo posts in the "#plural" tag or other inclusive tags, don't expect your DNIs to be respected.

They also are doing this knowingly. People have already tried to contact them about using the inclusive plural tag and the hate blog has stubbornly refused.

So if they're going to post in inclusive tags, I figured I might as well respond to some of their vent posts in anti-endo tags. As always, if anti-endos have a problem with this or feel boundaries are being unfairly crossed, please take it up with the hate blog I'm responding to that's invading our spaces.

Also, really weird how they just jump straight into saying "pro-endos" aren't systems either. Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of traumagenic DID systems whose disorders and trauma are just valid as yours. And they manage to not be bigots too!

Wait... are they claiming that ALL dissociation can only be caused by trauma?

Although previous research has implicated a history of childhood trauma in the development of dissociative tendencies, insufficient cognizance (in this context) has been taken of the distinction between pathological and nonpathological dissociation. In this study, the relationship between childhood trauma and both pathological and nonpathological dissociation was investigated in a sample of 100 Australian adults. Pathological dissociation was positively predicted by dimensions of childhood trauma, but no such relationship was found for nonpathological dissociation (psychological absorption). The data are consistent with the traumagenic model of the dissociative disorders, but factors other than childhood trauma may also be pertinent.

Amazing how they compare us with anti-vaxxers while trying to claim all dissociation is traumagenic. This wasn't even hard to find. 🙄

"I don't care about any morals"

Well, at least you're up front about it.

Also, I tend to check the DID tags every now and then and you know what I don't see there? Endogenic systems!

"#Endo Safe" tags are more often than not used by pro-endo traumagenic systems.

Guess what! If you have DID, you get to post in the DID tags. Being a hateful bigot isn't a requirement! Anyone with DID has the right to post in the DID tags, and can tag their post as endo safe too!

Maybe you wouldn't get as many anons from endogenic systems if you stop posting in inclusive tags. Just a thought!

How are they harmful to the community again?

Weren't you just saying earlier that pro-endos were stealing resources? Now you're acknowledging that they're making resources for the community, but this is also bad?

LOL!

Genic labels literally only exist because of the pro-endo community. And the anti-endo community notoriously hates xeno-origins like NPD-genic. Yes, people will assume you're endo-safe when you use xeno-origins because these terms, like most resources in the plural community, were made by pro-endos.

Keep it up guys! It's working! We're spreading!

Sorry, I don't feel like rebutting anything here. I just appreciate seeing that our efforts are paying off!

The Future is Plural! 😁

Stop!

This talking point has been completely debunked.

System hopping was used by pro-endos 15 years before the earliest association with RAMCOA. The idea that it was a RAMCOA term is a total lie invented by anti-endos!

OSDD-1A and OSDD-1B are not actually official disorders. There is an OSDD. The first example, called OSDD-1 sometimes, gives two possible presentations. One with less distinct alters and amnesia, and another with no amnesia. But these aren't called OSDD-1a or OSDD-1b.

If your goal is education, this nuance is important.

Could it be because ASPEC people have dealt with a ton of exclusionism from some queer communities, and are more accepting of other people as a result? And perhaps they also recognize similarities between system exclusionists and queer exclusionists?

You're coming and posting in our tags!

That's why people keep interacting with you! "Plural" is a term coined by non-disordered systems, you've been told this, and you insist on posting in inclusive tags anyway!

You don't get to bust in someone's door, complain about them in their home, and then tell them not to interact with you! It doesn't work like that!

Funny how these are the only sources they can provide. And they exclusively deal with DID without even touching on other forms of plurality.

Anyway...

The ICD-11 says you can experience "multiple distinct personality states" without a dissociative disorder.

The creators of the theory of structural dissociation have said hypnosis and mediumship may involve self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality.

And Transgender Mental Health, written by Eric Yarbrough and published by the American Psychiatric Association (who publishes the DSM) says you can be plural without trauma or a disorder.

Sources repeatedly affirm that it's possible to be plural without trauma!

Anyone who claims it's impossible to be plural without trauma is either ignorant or lying.

And if you're going to keep spreading hate and misinformation, at least keep it out of inclusive tags!

[c0rpseductor]

i am going to get out of bed and do something nice soon because it’s mär’s birthday and i am Not going to let myself get into any kind of State on his birthday but like.

oh my god i really hate the online “plural” community. i love seeing misinformation get debunked and seeing the actual clinical reality being discussed and other people’s experiences and stuff like that so I still follow blogs about DID, and even like “syscourse,” but it’s frustrating sometimes to see how like staunchly dedicated endo people are to subsuming a disorder they don’t have under a pointless umbrella term. like the insanity of all those people claiming people with DID and our entire community are part of their thing and that our terms are applicable to them and then like....when we object to that and the misinformation they spread about DID, being told WE’RE invading THEIR spaces???? it’s nuts.

and then the claim too that we all ultimately are on “the same side” really gets me. i saw this post once about how like “THE PLURAL COMMUNITY IS GOING TO GAIN ACCEPTANCE AND ONE DAY WE’LL HAVE A WORLD WHERE IT’S NORMAL TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT YOUR ALTERS AND WHO’S FRONTING, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WANT APPARENTLY!” and i just. ?????? what i want is access to the specialized trauma therapy that will help me be a functional member of society and to not be dealing with constant, debilitating PTSD and amnesia and depersonalization/derealization and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Sharing deeply personal information about my mental state so that people will use “the right name” and therefore giving total strangers leverage with which to seriously harm me has never exactly been on my list of priorities.

[solipsistful]

thinking about Syscourse History™ and how, in our experience, a lot of community discussion in 2011 involved making general plural spaces more welcoming to those with DID and DDNOS-1. don't imply trauma origins makes someone less of a person; people are allowed to find the medical model useful and that isn't them saying all multiplicity is medical; integration isn't strictly the only option in therapy; acting like there's Absolutely Nothing In Common, Ever has sorta a stigmatizing effect, etc.

so like, beyond the usual "we're not invading exclusive spaces; you're invading inclusive ones" thing, it's wild seeing people claim that things like "DID systems are sometimes multiple people, not just 'parts'" or "it's okay to be personally wigged out at the idea of integration" are just Endo Misinformation™. casualties of internet transience, i suppose.

- ace

[candy-cloud-system]

Guess who’s back speaking their shit ! This guyyyyyy ! . Allow me to write a long ass paragraph explaining everything about why I am NOT going to take back what I said.

First off. Comparing anything I said in that paragraph to racism is wild. Not ONCE did I mention race, and it was a completely irrelevant and honestly just false comparison. Hating someone for being downright ableist is SO much different than being racist. And I can guarantee you, I will never hate anyone for their skin color or race. That is something they are born with, and cannot change. And the diversity of human beings is single handedly the most beautiful thing to me.

Now. A more accurate comparison, if you will, would be saying something along the lines of this: imagine you broke your leg because of someone else’s actions, and it causes you a lot of discomfort, pain, and changes the way you have to function. Often you get frustrated with things you’re unable to do the same as someone without a broken leg, or even get super angry at the person who was the cause of your broken leg, sometimes finding yourself daydreaming about how much better your current state would be if you hadn’t been around them or left the situation sooner. Now imagine the next day you see someone else with a cast on their leg, and you think “oh! Someone who may have a similar experience and understand my struggles!” Just for them to tell you their leg was never broken before and they simply “wanted” to have a broken leg.

Imagine the pure frustration that would give. All the thoughts of everything and all the pain and regret and rage you face daily now being mimicked by someone who woke up and decided to claim they had it simply because they wanted to. THATS what it’s like seeing an endo.

I will say this now. Plural means the exact same thing as a system. There is NO difference. There is no such thing as “systems have trauma, but if they say they’re just plural then they aren’t claiming to have a disorder!” Because that’s bullshit.

Endos cause a lot of harm to our communities, even if they aren’t aware. The misuse of terms and stealing of terms from cultural practices, invading our spaces sometimes with purpose to harm us, convincing actual systems their repressed trauma or even remembered trauma doesn’t exist or wasn’t bad, and wide spread misinformation highly effects people like me who have to live with the actual disorder.

I’ve seen a lot of systems (myself included) who are uncomfortable calling themselves plural. Although it is a correct, and sometimes more used in medical settings term for systems; the association of the word with endos who think slamming another label on themself justifies blatant ableism has made that term unbearably difficult to use on ourselves. I’ve seen the same with the words headmates, host, fictives, and other system terms.

“Tulpa Systems” are stealing a cultural term, AND misusing it at that. Tulpamancy is a term from Tibetan Buddhism. Original concepts of it found in the Buddhist Niramāņakāya, and later came into traditions of Mysticism. It is NOT when a 14 year old on tiktok decides they want a serious mental health condition and “creates an alter” for themself. Tulpas are part of a culture. And are spiritual practices.

Invading spaces that aren’t made for you can be very harmful. Even if unintentional or seemingly “harmless” those spaces are MADE for certain people. Those certain people need places they feel comfortable being themselves with other people like them. That’s very important. Something I’ll compare it to is this; I get very uncomfortable when an abled body person gets in the school elevator with me. The elevators at my school are made specifically for disabled individuals and those who cannot walk up stairs. It with the exception of escorts, when someone who is perfectly able bodied gets on, it creates a tension for me. They’re invading a space made for me and people like me, simply because they wanted to. I feel it’s unfair to me, because I’m not able to fit in comfortably in their spaces, I cannot walk up stairs with ease, yet they can, the elevator is a space where I can feel comfortable and capable with the abilities I have, and I feel very uncomfortable when that’s invaded by others. And it’s the same with system spaces. I’ve ranted to my friends countless times about how I never feel comfortable in the online system community. My spaces get invaded constantly by people who think they have a right to steal what should be a safe space for trauma survivors. I have grown accustomed to the reality that I will never have a space online that I will be completely safe from ableism in this community do to endos. Even in real life I have faced people in the eyes who faked my disorder just because they thought it was cool. They faked and copied my real struggles, lied about experiences and made me miserable. And I feel like i don’t even have to speak about the endos who come into spaces to harm us. We can all tell that’s fucked up.

CDDs are a trauma response. And something it does, and it’s whole point, is to hide your trauma. A lot of people with CDDs will not remember what happened. It’s what makes it so tricky to cope with and heal from. I’ve had a very close friend of mine ignore their plurality and not take steps to heal due to them being convinced they didn’t have trauma or wasn’t enough trauma and they were an endo. That is so incredibly harmful. I cannot stress that enough. Telling people they can have a CDD without trauma, even putting that option of being plural without trauma is SO harmful. Because young people who may realize they have a CDD and not be educated on them will brush it off as being an endo, spread that misinformation, and most dangerously; not be able to take the proper steps to heal. Lucky for me, I understood that it was a trauma related disorder, so I was able to get into therapy, get on medication to help myself combat my depression, and find coping skills that were healthy for me to work on growing and coping with my CDD and other disorders. Convincing someone their CDD isn’t serious, or that it’s not trauma related takes that away from them. It takes away the realization of the need to heal, it takes away the chance for them to cope with serious trauma. And it can even worsen it. People with trauma who categorize themself as endo or are categorized by others as endo may be even more effected, feeling like trauma is now a competition or that they aren’t enough to have a CDD that they may actually be struggling with and wanting help for. I hope you understand how harmful that is.

The spread of misinformation is WILD. One of the first things usually brought to me by my friends at school who don’t know much about DID is usually some misinformation they saw from an endo. And of course I don’t mind educating them properly at all, but it honestly hurts me a bit to see some of the crazy things I’ve seen them believe because of how much misinformation people spread on the internet about this disorder.

CDDs aren’t fun, they aren’t quirky. They’re serious trauma stemmed disorders formed to help someone survive. It’s not “having silly characters I like in my head”. It’s NEEDING them to keep you alive and as stable as possible when in horrible conditions whenever you are in the most vulnerable stage of your life.

Blah blah. Internet rant. Blah blah. I can already feel the comments calling me a loser and telling me to blow up or something 💀 like ima lowkey be mean for a sec but do y’all ever shut up? Learn to literally educate yourself instead of believing a 13 year old who wants the entire cast of Hazbin Hotel in their head cus they think it’s quirky (no shade to actual systems with hazbin alters)

Get ur ableist asses outta here fr 💀💀💀💀😭😭😭 making my life hell

Tw: syscourse ,

Endos DNI with this post.

Hot take; I shouldn’t have to be terrified to read / like posts. I should have to read the tags to make sure it’s not posted by an endo trying to infiltrate our spaces. I shouldn’t have to fear that the thing I’m gonna read is going to send me into a spiral because it’s gonna be some stupid ass shit about how “traumagenic systems are losers” or whatever the other stuff endos say about us is.

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO HAVE AN ALTER WHO SITS OVER MY SHOULDER EVERY TIME I OPEN THIS APP THAT CAN PULL ME AWAY INCASE SOMETHING GETS BAD.

THAT SHOULD NOT BE A THING I, A TRAUMATIZED SYSTEM, SHOULD HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHEN LOOKING FOR COMFORT OR SILLY CONTENT TO CHEER ME UP REGARDING THE TRAUMA FORMED DISORDER THAT WILL FOREVER MAKE MY LIFE DIFFICULT.

“Endos don’t hurt anyone🥺🥺🥺”

yes they fucking do.

- Sharkbite

[neiviele]

*Speaking only for ourselves here* A little vent on anti-endos invading endogenic community spaces

It’s honestly irritating when an anti-endogenic pops into our community and tries to insist that all we want is to “feel valid” and tries to “teach” us about the theory of structural dissociation as if we don’t already know how it works, sometimes with an (un)healthy dose of misinformation on the side (”you’re kinnies”, “you’re talking about ego states”, etc.) and then we have to both correct that misinformation and deal with them trying to insist that this is simply us trying to feel special or something.

We (our system) don’t care about whether we’re valid or not in your eyes. We legitimately don’t care if you think we’re as real as crypids or unicorns, and you saying “you don’t exist you faker” has about as much effect as someone saying to us “you’re ugly”. We don’t care. We were endogenic since the day we came into this world, and we’re endogenic now. We’re still plural, and you getting upset about it and trying to make false equivalencies about endogenics doesn’t change a thing. 

What we personally care about is any possible harm being done to endogenics and other plural systems via your (mis)information and even general toxicity. What we care about is making sure that endogenic systems and other non-traumagenic systems have spaces to exist in peace, and the support and resources they need. Yeah, of course we’re going to disagree with you when you start acting as if we’re simply “in denial” or as if we’re a misinformed child (we’re in our twenties...why are you trying to act as if endogenic systems are all minors?) and of course we’ll disagree when you’re invading our community and when your only motivation for this seems, ironically enough, based in validity.

We know who we are and what we are. A random person popping in to go “oh, have you heard my recitation of the theory of structural dissociation” is not going to change the fact of what we are. A random person trying to convince us we’re mentally ill or just don’t know we have DID yet isn’t going to change that, either. Sorry if it bugs you, but we can’t change what we are.

[sophieinwonderland]

Anti-Endos Don't Deserve a Safe Space!

Alright, if you saw this it in the tags, you can guess what I'm responding to.

Anti-endos and neutrals need to learn that anti-endos are just bigots and bullies looking for an outgroup to dehumanize and send hate to. They don't care about science. They don't care if anything they say is true. They only care about hurting people for being different!

Since when is Tibetan Buddhism a closed culture? Let alone a "VERY" closed culture?

In reality, Tibetan Buddhism is an open religion and a proselytizing on that encourages people around the globe to join! And the Dalai Lama, the highest spiritual authority in Tibetan Buddhism, has even encouraged Christians and the West to use Tibetan Buddhist meditations.

“Many Christians tell me they believe in Buddhist meditation, which can be learned by Christians. We teach right attitude. We teach meditation, which can be quite deep. These would be things that the West can take, and I think it is clear that Buddhists should practice certain Western methods, too.”

These are the words of the religions' highest authority figure!

Stop trying to declare the Tibetan Buddhist religion closed just so you can use them as a talking point to spread hate!!!

Since this is invading inclusive and pro-endo tags, as always, my response is going into anti-endo tags. If anyone takes issue with this, please hold your own community accountable for invading our spaces and take it up with @the-helside-sys.

I don't believe anti-endos deserve a safe space to spread hate but I'm willing to allot them one so long as they aren't breaching into inclusive and pro-endo spaces and aren't tagging hate posts like this:

But I'm actually not done yet!

I want to respond to another one of their posts!

First, this isn't true. A scientific theory has to be testable, and has to be tested and supported by evidence. But it's not necessarily "generally accepted as truth."

And with soft sciences, what constitutes a theory can be a bit questionable. See many of Freud's psychoanalytical theories.

This isn't really relevant. It's just an important point I want to bring up for people putting too much stock into psychological theories as if they're accepted facts.

Structural dissociation is meant to cover a very specific form of multiplicity.

Endogenic systems aren't ignoring the theory of structural dissociation because the theory of structural dissociation does NOT support anti-endo claims.

The author of the theory have stated that it may be possible for self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality to exist through other means, citing hypnosis and mediumship as examples:

The theory of structural dissociation's own creators are, at worst, neutral on endogenic systems acknowledging that trauma may not be the only way for self-conscious "dissociative parts" to form.

And you will not find a single paper saying the only way to be plural is through trauma. It doesn't exist!

Anti-endo views are not backed or supported by science or experts in any way!

...

Now, back to the title... Like I said... anti-endos don't deserve a safe space. But this isn't about what anyone deserves to me. It's about escalation.

I'm willing to let anti-endos keep to their bigotry in their own spaces for the time being so long as they behave and keep it there.

But continuing to post hate in our tags is unacceptable. Currently, I avoid posting in anti-endo tags to keep the peace except for posts like this. And even in posts like this, I don't post in DID or OSDD tags out of respect even when discussing those topics.

But it's certainly something I could do. Were anti-endos to continue to erode boundaries between spaces and encourage their followers to invade inclusive and pro-endo tags, I would have no problem appropriately tagging my posts that are about DID with "#DID" and similar tags. It wouldn't be against the rules of the site because my posts are about the topic I tag it with. And why maintain a boundary if it's only going to be respected by one side?

So to people who feel it's important to maintain separation between communities... I'd highly advise you do better at policing your own community's crosstagging so that we can all maintain our safe spaces, whether you feel we deserve to or not. Thank you! 😊

(This applies to both the explicitly endogenic and pro endo tags, as well as the plural and plurality tags given that "plural" was a term coined by non-disordered systems and is inherently inclusive.)

[tseldoesdiscourse]

(We Do Hope None Of This Comes Off As Rude / Disrespecful And Apologies For It's Length, We Began To Rant About Our Experiences As To Try And Better Explain Things T^T) We Get That You Have All Fought So Hard For Safe Spaces Online, But Honestly, So Have The Non-Traumagenic Systems. That Is Due To The Fact That Any Form Of Plurality Is Seen As Wrong And Demonic And Should Be Fixed By Most People Of The World.

Many Of The Anti-Endos We've Come Across Have Been Absolutely Horrible People To Anyone And Everyone Who Doesn't Fit Their Own Personal Definition Of Being A System. They're What Seems Like A Majority Which Causes Others To Think Every Anti-Endo Is A Bad Person.

And We're Assuming From Your Wording That You Don't Actually Know The True Meaning Of Endogenic / Non-Traumagenic. It Is Not Being A System Without Trauma Or Having A CDD Without Trauma.

It's Simply A System That Didn't Form Due To / Because Of Trauma. There Are Many Endogenic / Non-Traumagenic Systems Who Are Traumatized, It's Just Not The Reason Their System Formed.

The Term Endogenic Was Created As An Alternative By A Specific System To Use Rather Than Natural Multiple Or Just Regular Old Multiple. They Created The Term Traumagenic At The Time As Well. They Had Experienced Plurality Since Birth, With Two Originals Instead Of The Usual Failed Integration That Is Normally Seen In Traumagenic CDD Related Plurality. This Article Explains The System's Experiences And How They Came To Coin Endogenic, Traumagenic, And A Couple Other -Genic Terms.

Is It Right That Some Non-Traumagenic / Non-CDD Systems Go Into CDD Spaces Claiming Their Experiences Are The Same? No, It's Not. Are We Similar? In Some Ways, Mainly In The Fact That We Experience Plurality / Multiplicity As Well. Not Normally To The Same Extent Of CDD Systems Though.

And While CDDs Are Usually Traumabased, It Is Possible For Non-Traumagenic Systems To Have One. It's All About The Impairment Factor. The ICD-11 States It Under Every CDD In The "Boundary With Normality (Threshold)" Section Under The Diagnostic Criteria On This Official Site For The ICD-11.

Let's Not Forget That Endogenics And Traumagenics Used To Coexist Under The Multiple And Natural Multiple Labels Going Back All The Way Back To 1990 (According To The Creator Of Endo / Traumagenic Anyway). Not Normally Arguing Over Who Was Or Wasn't Faking. The Terms Eventually Began To Fall Into Disfavor By Those Who Believed The Term "Natural Multiple" Implied That Other Plurals Were Unnatural. Then After The Terms Endogenic And Traumagenic Were Created, Anti-Endos Took The Term And Twisted It's Meaning To Mean DID/OSDD Systems Are The Only "Real / True" Systems, When That's Not The Original Meaning Of The Term.

And When Endogenics Decided To Make Their Own Spaces, You Know What Happened? Antis Invaded Them. A Community On Here We're In Has Been Subjected To Being Posted On r/Systemcringe Twice In The Last 3 Or So Months. Then There's Astrothetherian. An Absolute Dogshit Excuse Of A "Traumagenic Savior". Constantly Harassing People For Simply Existing, Being Sexual, Misgendering, And Other Forms Of Harassment And Awful behavior Have Been Recorded From Him.

Please Don't Claim That Endos Were The Only Shitty Ones When In All Honesty, It Truly Seems Like Antis Started It All For No Reason Other Than Their Feelings Were Hurt Over A Simple Term. (/Nm) The "Majority" Of The Community Is "Pretending" It Never Happened Probably Because They. Don't. Know. We Didn't Know That Non-Traumagenics Were Supposedly "Notoriously" Awful Or Whatever. Which Really Isn't True Today And Probably Wasn't Back Then.. We Hardly See Any Hate Towards Traumagenic Systems From Endos, Rather Coming From Anti-Endos Who Automatically Strip The Traumagenic Origin And / Or CDD Diagnosis From Any Systems That Are Pro-Endo.

Also, Willogenic / Created Systems Do Exist Yes, But Not Usually For Fun. It's Often Due To An Intense Need / Want For Interaction Because Of Loneliness Or A Desire To Have Someone Internally To Help Them. Majority Of Endogenic Systems Did Not Choose To Be Plural, But That Doesn't Mean Those Who Did Are Awful Beings. We Have Tons Of Intentionally And Unintentionally Created Members Ourselves.

Hell Our Primary Co-Host Was Created As A Coping Mechanism For Our Old Host. He Started Out As An Oc That It Roleplayed As In Xaer Fantasies / Fake Scenarios. Then It Turned Into Actual Problems Among Other Things. Ex-Host No Longer Felt As Alone Anymore For A Reason Xey Couldn't Quite Pinpoint. Phantom Sensations Of Horns, Tails, And Wings Were Felt Constantly And So Vividly. Void Would Be "Taken Over" By Our Co-Host And Would Begin To Act Like Him And Started To Lose More And More Time. It Chalked It Down To His Declining Mental Health And A Vivid Imagination. Oh Boy How Pog Was Wrong.

We're Mixed Origins, Like We Mentioned In The Beginning, With A Heavy Amount Of Endogenic Alters. However, We're Chronically Dissociated And Hardly Know Who We Are At Any Given Moment. We Have Severe Memory Loss That Gets Us In Trouble And Other Symptoms Of CDDs. Our Endogenic Origins Don't Make Us Any Less Of A DID System. Our Trauma Could Hardly Be Called Immense In Our Opinion. We Weren't Even Abused (As Far As We Know), Just The Sheer Witnessing Of Our Parents Relationship Crashing And Burning Since Birth Was Enough To Stop The Integration Process. We Think We Lived Fine In Our Few Memories That We Have, All Up Until The Day Our Parents Divorced. That Sparked A Wave A Trauma We Weren't Ready For To Come Down On Us. Divorce Is Traumatic, A Very Common Cause Of Trauma In Children Actually. That Comes From Our Therapists Who Specializes In Patients With Trauma.

While We Formed From Trauma, Most Of Us Didn't. The Vast Majority Of Us Did Not. Hyperfixations And Interests Are Assholes To Us Due To The Fact That We "Absorb" Fictives Like A Sponge. Half Of Them Front Like Once To Log Their Info Then Fuck Off Somewhere In The Innerworld Never To Be Talked To Again Unless Yanked To Front By Someone Accidentally. Fragments Upon Fragments. Latching Onto Images Or Drawings Of People And Creatures, Floating Around Until We Yank Them To Co-Front To Try And "Fill" Them Out. Help Them Find A Sense Of Identity.

I Think The Point Was To Make It Known How Diverse Plurality Is And How There's No One Way To Experience Being A System? I Don't Know, The Rant Jumbled The Brain And Now There's Soup (Several People In Front And Don't Know Who Anyone Else Is Besides Me And The Primary Co-Host).

Anyway, Thanks For Reading All Our Word Salad.

If You Have Any Questions Let Us Know Because We're Tired And English Is Hard Right Now So If We Made Any Mistakes Or Worded Anything Weird We'd Be Happy To Explain.

Have A Good Timezone.

Keep seeing posts of pro-endos who used to be anti-endo talking about "Ugh, anti-endo spaces are so toxic" which is not necessarily bad, there are bad anti-endo spaces out there and people are allowed to vent about how those spaces hurt them

I do have a problem when they use that as an excuse to call us all toxic and cruel. I've seen many saying things like "Anti endos are so horrible, I'm so glad I'm not one of those monsters anymore"

You need to understand we aren't the monsters you make us out to be. We're traumatized people, trying our hardest to survive with something debilitating, who can't help but see endos as mocking, whether they truly are or not. We can't help but see endos as invading our spaces.

We didn't get to have safe spaces most of the time. We didn't get to be around people who cared about us and understood us. Even those of us that did have a safe space had it poisoned by trauma elsewhere. We spent our childhoods afraid, isolated, and so agonizingly alone, feeling like we were better off dead, that we were freaks, that we were the only ones in the world going through this. This community we made for ourselves was one we had to fight through years of hell to get.

So when random people come over trying to insist that they're "just like us" and demanding to be let in, despite having only one or two things in common that we couldn't even trust they truly had, of course we'll be fucking defensive. In our eyes, you're trying to take the safe spaces we fought tooth and nail for away from us, whether you truly are or not. In our eyes you're people who know nothing about us or what we went through, and continue to go through, trying to barge into our havens and bloat it with bullshit, whether that's what you're trying to do or not.

We've been hurt so many times, by so many people, for so long. Why the fuck would we take a chance on people that are so suspect? You claim to have alters just like us, yet without any of the other symptoms of our disorders. You claim to be systems, yet without being caused by the immense trauma we had to suffer through. Hell, some of you claim that you made your alters for fun, just because you can.

Of course we're wary and defensive. We don't want to even risk losing the spaces we worked so damn hard to get.

If you've had a bad experience with anti-endo spaces, and are pro-endo now because of it, that's fine by me and I understand completely. But that doesn't make us all villians. That doesn't make us all evil monsters.

And besides, many of us have been hurt by pro-endo/mixed origin spaces too. We've seen people have horrible experiences with them. (Let's not forget endos started as natural multiples, who were notoriously shitty, cruel, and discriminatory toward any and all traumagens, and that a lot of that same rhetoric is still rampant in the community, AND that the community at large has basically just decided to pretend that never happened.

-Kaz

[eeveecraft]

"Sysmeds" aka defensive systems who arent comf with all plurals, dont respect you either. Youre appropriating our language, invading our spaces, and demonizing us all bc of the behavior of a few. We dont agree with you, and thats fine, but dont pretend we are all evil. That would be like saying all endo/quoi "systems" are bad simply for the actions of one. It isnt fair. Please be more respectful to those of us who have trauma and simply want distance and terms of our own.

Nah, I just “pretend” that not even half of you even do a damn minute of research or take non-academic opinions as law. It has been proven time and time again that the terms other plurals are supposedly “appropriating” are terms by the general community for any kind of plural probably before you were even born. Nor do we “invade” your spaces. Ha, reminds me how you guys love to post hate in #endogenic positivity because that’s real fucking clever.

And behavior of a few? Buddy, I’ve had to block probably fifty or more sysmeds by now. “Few,” is a damn low underestimate of how many open sysmeds there are.

Also, you’re throwing trauma in there? Here, let me add to the pile. Just because you’re mentally ill or traumatized doesn’t mean you get a free douchebag pass to a group of people who mind their own damn business. Do I get to be an asshole because I’m autistic and disabled? No. Not to mention that there are plenty of endogenic systems who have trauma, but it didn’t cause their Plurality, or how a lot of them have other mental illnesses.

Don’t get me wrong, both the endogenic and Tulpamancy communities have their fair share of cancer and assholes like any community, but sysmeds literally treat us like we’re all the scum of the Earth for just existing. The suicide-baiting, death threats, honey pot servers, harassment, cyberbullying, dedicated hate blogs... it goes on with all the sh!t sysmeds do, and it is NOT okay. I don’t care how you feel about us, but the sh!t many of you take part in is fucking sick.

I’m perfectly fine if you want to stay away from endogenic systems, that’s entirely your decision, but sysmeds are more than, “Defensive systems not comfortable with all plurals.” No, it goes beyond that to literal hate and abuse. If what you said was actually true, I wouldn’t necessarily mind sysmeds, but that’s not the case.

Anyway, I’m done here.

2-5-2020

[night-dragon937]

question, why aren't endos allowed to use the word system? the word existed long before we started talking about plurality. i feel like we should be focused on improving the image of plurality as a whole rather than infighting over language. it makes everyone look bad and causes unnecessary divides.

first off, i don't know if that's true. plurals have always existed. plurals who became plural because of trauma (systems) have also existed for a very long time. i don't know if system used with this definition or even the actual word system predates plurality itself.

however, system (along with quite a few other words) is used to refer to disordered plurals. certain words (like persecutor, etc) are used to help us communicate our existence and issues to medical professionals so that we can get the help we need. when non disordered plurals start using our words, it gets confusing to everybody and it ends up with a lot of hurt feelings

one example would be a place for medical systems to work through trauma, getting called a space for systems. it gets invaded by non medical plurals who feel very unwelcome in a space they thought they were welcome in and the disordered systems no longer feel safe to talk about trauma because that safe space has been breached.

also... "improving the image of plurality as a whole rather than infighting over language" i feel like the same rule applies to this as queer microlabels. if someone's acceptance and support is conditional, that's not real acceptance or support. i don't care if singlets think i look bad for standing up for myself, other systems, and other plurals. i really don't care. and "plural because of severe and/or repeated childhood trauma that fucked with the development of the personality" and "plural for another reason, or born plural" are not unnecessary divides... one group needs medical attention, and other doesn't need medical attention in the same way

hope this helps, feel free to send another ask for clarification or other questions or anything