#Jason Todds titan tower attack

[felidacy]

Rogue system knowledge & Tim and Jason

@head-in-the-clouds27 regarding your question about if Talia will know about the Rogue system for Tim and if this change in Tim would also make the dynamic with Jason different got me thinking. So here is what I thought about. 

Rogue System & The League 

Tim is a natural snoop that makes unreasonable amounts of contingency plans as he goes, which is why he weasels himself into Barbara Gordon’s heart through lighthearted trash talk about Bruce & Dick and thirst for knowledge in order to learn more about computer science from day one. (Tim is not arrogant enough to think he could achieve the same level of greatness through the lack of a teacher.) As such, Tim learns about the League when he wasn’t supposed to know (really dumb of Bruce when Tim could be at risk, did he learn nothing?) when he snoops through the Batcomputer and decides then and there that attracting the interest from them is far too dangerous. 

Paired with the newly attained hacker knowledge and having no qualms about using questionable methods like gaslighting and blackmail, Tim uses that to control a large part of the Rogues underground. Unintentionally he becomes one of the big bosses in the crime family as he forces them to alter pieces of information, use codes that only they understand, and build up a cover-up to make it seem like they use it for every vigilante and not only for a tiny Robin. (Whoever doesn’t do as he is told is either being put into a trap with Batman arriving or Tim makes it through cleverly planned incidents and more gaslighting that the Rogues end up fighting each other. You would assume that they understood that quickly, but people are sometimes stupid and like underestimating Tim, and as such, some more drastic measures needed to be taken. In the end, though, they learned to listen after all.) 

It is that altered information that the League is only aware of because when they infiltrate some of the crime families to learn about the system, the plan never goes according to plan. Despite Talia’s strong suspicion of that bird, Ra’s has enough of losing good assassins for some measly system along with the unwanted attention of the Detective again that he orders them back. Talia is supposed to concentrate on their newest project that she put at risk because of Batman being too close for their liking now. (Talia does as she is told despite her dislike as she forms her new, little soldier through manipulation and honey-covered lies she whispers into his ears. With hundreds of years of knowledge, she knows just how to use pawns when it involves the pit.)

Jason and Tim’s first meeting

Like in canon because of the Red Hood’s appearance in Gotham, Tim is forced to leave for Florida and prohibited from leaving the Tower for an unknown amount of time. Tim does not mind that he is essentially skipping school for that time, however, he does mind that he was totally caught off-guard by the Waynes and as he was rushed through the Zeta tube he was unprepared. With the Waynes being unaware of his nature (granted that is on him 100% and isn’t it what he wanted) there is not enough time to take a lot with himself, which includes the much-needed packages of blood he regularly consumes to stay sane and, you know, alive. 

It isn’t much of a rebellion when he tries to escape out of the tower and much more of a healthy desire to live. Tim might not seem like it with his unhealthy tendencies, but he does have a stronger will to survive than a wet paperback. But as predicted with someone like Batman, the safety measures prove themselves to be fruitful and even Barbara does not want to help him out, instead reinforcing the system. It is completely unreasonable and overkill in Tim’s eyes when heroes from the Justice League show up when he does end up getting out by a sheer miracle. Finally meeting the Green Lantern he loved ever since he was small (Tim is in denial that he still is) isn’t worth it though with the follow-up lectures, but the worst ones are when Superman - who is practically like an uncle to the Waynes - shows up and gives him that disappointed puppy look. Even when the man isn’t his uncle because Tim is not a Wayne by any means, it has a deadly effect on him. And then come the messages from Dick that make Tim feel so guilty that he lets go of his stubbornness for once and plays obedient soldier. 

(Tim watched with rising panic as he depletes the little amount of blood resources that he had and a familiar feeling of hunger settles in him. Being alone and hungry was a familiar friend, if you could call it that, for Tim. But Tim had gotten so used to a different reality -although it was still slow going as both Bruce and Tim himself were hesitant- that it was now something that he dreaded.)

With very poor timing it is when Tim is at his worst that the Red Hood breaks into the Tower and comes across Tim. Not Robin, but Tim the monster. A boy that he heard a lot about through Talia and yet that boy before him then wasn’t quite as helpless and weak as he has been told. He had a familiar edge in his smile, in the way that his eyes seemed to stare straight into his soul and how he didn’t hesitate to grasp a knife as a weapon. (Robin was supposed to be the comfort, the sneaky surprise that struck when you least expect it. Not deadly dangerous. That wasn’t Jason or Tim, they were familiar with the darkness and didn’t hesitate to use it. They were a different kind.) None of that mattered to the Red Hood in that moment however. The pit hummed in satisfaction to have an evenly matched target that could keep up with its strength, though technique wise they were far different. The pit drowned out how similiar the two were, the pit only made the Red Hood see green and so incredibly angry. 

The Red Hood wasn’t the only one who was filled with an unexplainable surge of power, however. Tim fought viciously against the larger man who could count himself lucky with the helmet, because otherwise, Tim would have already ripped his throat open. He made do with the knife in his hand instead of his Bo-staff and he managed to hurt the Red Hood more than once, although none of the wounds are fatal enough to halter the man in his steps. Angry at that, the Red Hood managed to push Tim down the stairs where he crumbled into a mess along with his weapon when bones snapped. Groaning and cursing Tim was ready to get up again when he was shoved back down and the Red Hood took off the helmet. 

Jason Todd, his hero, his dead Robin stood before Tim. Not so dead after all. 

The reveal was a greater shock than when Jason leaned closer and spat a choice of words at the replacement. The pretender. The cuckoo that snuck into a nest he wasn’t supposed to have when he had his own family. Nevermind that it was a poor excuse of one. But Jason didn’t know anything about the truth. How could he? He didn’t know that he lost his mother long before she died of person. Didn’t know that the comatose state of his father was a mercy in disguise. Didn’t know that the Waynes didn’t even truly want him. Jason was angry at Tim and regardless of the explanations that he tried, the older didn’t want to listen to him any longer. 

As such, the slitting of his throat came quick like the strike of a viper. Jason didn’t care as Tim bleed out then and there. He left his message for the Bats and left without even sparing Tim another glance. That hurt more than it should have and it took Tim longer than he wanted to call back the logical part of his brain. Like, how he was in danger of dying. He activated his emergency beacon and hoped that Bruce and Dick would soon come, but Tim knew that his survival rate wasn’t great. (Vampires weren’t immortal despite popular belief in pop media. He had seen it with his mother after all. Vampires turned grey in a way no human could and not long after they would turn to ash. There was a reason that the Drakes were apparently always burned and not put in coffins.) Tim did not wish to die, so he did the only logical conclusion. Crawling to the knife that was kicked aside by Jason, he took the weapon in his slippery hands and prayed that all the blood on it was more from Jason than his own. His own would have proven to be useless. With probably not much time left, Tim licked the blood off from the knife even when it made his poor throat scream in more pain.

However, that was nothing compared to the following. Tim had never tasted such awful blood like then. It was rotten and slid down his throat like sludge, he needed to fight against the urge to throw it back up again. Forcefully he kept his mouth shut even when the heat set in. The usual healing effect of blood was cool and numbing to his body, but this blood scorched from his insides and decidedly did not start healing the wound. Being a naturally cold creature, the heat was nearly unbearable to endure. At first, Tim thought he misjudged and that he would die that die, but then he did realize that there was somewhat of an effect. While it didn’t heal the wound, it stopped the blood flow enough that he could outlive the attack. 

Later on Bruce, Alfred and Dick would wonder how Tim survived. They were thankful beyond belief, but there had been so much blood and Tim lied so cold and still that Dick fully expected to have lost another younger brother when he didn’t have the chance to protect him, again. Tim did not want to talk about that day, barely even spoke which was at first explained by the injury but later on put on as trauma. Tim would end up disclosing who the Red Hood was, but beyond that there was not a thing he explained. 

Dick caught Tim more than once staring into the mirror and looking at the scar, the first scar that was ever left on his body. Dick would try his best to cheer him up and explain that it didn’t make him ugly or anything, but Dick had no clue to the extent of how much it truly unsettled Tim. For the first time, the powers of his have failed. Tim wasn’t scared of the attack itself or what Jason had done, Tim was scared that it could happen again now. 

[myshipsbesailing]

Dick, pointing to Jason's photo : This is Jason. He was our brother. He liked literature and was very good at school. People would've told you he was violent but he was the sweetest and would've never been on the wrong side.

Damian, who has seen Jason training in the League of Assasins to commit homicide and probably mass murder in Gotham : Okay

[lena-in-her-mind-palace]

can we talk about how Tim meets himself as gun batman who's entire philosophy is that sometimes you have to take extreme measures and the only way to stop crime is to kill. And then literally a few months later Jason shows up and the red hood operates on the exact same philosophy but in a more morally ambiguous way (re: not being a facist dictator tyrant)

[bookburners]

Au where Jack Drake found Tim was Robin and forced him to quit before Jason could attack him at Titans tower so Jason becomes Tim’s nanny to torture him instead.

Because honestly what would be worst to Tim, almost getting beaten to Death or having 24hr responsible supervision and a Curfew.

[evasive-anon]

Jason Attacking Tim at Titans Tower

Fanon vs Canon

We've all seen the versions in fanfiction but I'm not so sure everyone's seen the original so if you're one of those batfam fans who doesn't want to read the comics (regardless of reasons) but you are curious about how it actually went this is for you.

What I'm addressing:

What does Jason actually say to Tim during the attack?

Did Jason drug all the other Titans?

Did Jason really wear a Robin costume?

Did Jason slit Tim's throat or call him replacement?

Did Jason actually break Tim's bo staff?

Was Tim crying or scared?

Did Jason write a message on the wall in Tim's blood?

Did Jason's eyes glow green?/Did he follow pit rage mechanics?

Panels and details below. This is a LONG one.

What did Jason actually say to Tim during the attack?

Dialogue in fanfiction during the Titans Tower attack varies based on what kind of fic you're reading but usually its either 'time to clip Replacement's wings' if its staying a beatdown whump 'or oh no precious lil bby why is no one watching you' if its an accidental child acquisition. Not judging either option, but this ain't about them its about the real shit.

Look at these opening lines:

Hey, Tim. I was here first.You're the Red Hood. You've been cleaning up Gotham the easy way. Easy? What do you know about easy, Tim? You had a father that looked after you. You went to a private school, right? You slept in a bed. I slept on the streets, I lived in the alleyways in Gotham. Trying to survive. Until Bruce took me in. I trained as hard as I could. I did whatever he asked. . . at least at first. But it didn't matter. They said I wasn't tough enough to be robin. But today, they say you are. Show me, Tim. Show me what you have that I didn't.

Jason really puts himself out there in all of his dialogue in this encounter, the struggle of having to fight for anything and everything he got in life, even the things that came to everyone else for free, and then being told he wasn't even good enough for the things he fought for.

There's a trope in fanfics that if Jason knew Tim stalked Batman and forced his way into being Robin that it would change how Jason felt about the situation but that's even addressed in this comic:

You were a kid, worried about how Batman was spiraling down into darkness. You spent weeks tracking the dark knight. Solving a mystery no one else could. You discovered who he was behind that mask. Millionaire Bruce Wayne. You were so pleased with yourself, I'm sure that you forgot who you were really dealing with. I know Bruce Wayne. And let me tell you, Tim if someone was trying to find out who Batman really was. If someone was stalking him for weeks. He'd know about it. You can't be that good. I am. He let you find him. And I bet he said the same thing to you as he did to me, didn't he? That you had a talent to make a difference in Gotham. That he needed someone he could trust in war on crime. That you were one of a kind. The light to his darkness. Robin, the Boy Wonder.

Tim saying 'I am' is really such a moment that doesn't come through in text because he is right that he really did do that but I also completely understand why Jason wouldn't believe it.

TBH my favorite part is how done Tim honestly sounds with Jason thoughout all his trauma dumping. Like imagine a grown man who used to work the same part time job as you breaking into your house, dressing up in your work uniform, ranting about how much the job ruined his life while he beats your ass??? God, and he probably had to write a fucking report about it after. RIP Timmy.

What do you want? Do you want to be Robin again? Is that it? You... want to take it away from me? Why in the hell would I ever want that? Don't you get it? When I died no one cared! No one remembered me. Are you completely insane? No one could forget you. I've spent my entire career wearing this mask under your shadow. I had to convince Batman to let me try this. All because he'll never stop blaming himself for what happened to you. You ask me, that's the only reason he hasn't taken you down. He's holding back. But me? No freakin' way. That's the Robin I wanted to see. Still. You do realize the whole idea of training a teenager to fight against something he'll never eradicate is a mistake. It didn't even surprise anyone when I died. When I failed. I failed-- but I'm still beating you. Do you think you're that good now?! Do you really, Tim? Yes.

Tim bashing Jason across the face as he says 'no freakin' way'? *chefs kiss*

Jason drugging the other Titans to knock them out?

Little bit true, Kory was actually just already away from the tower and BB and Cyborg were about to bounce because of the drama going on with Donna's return but Jason like super tazes them and then drugs Raven who he thought already went through enough shit without him knocking her out violently.

Note: Jason says in the text here that he never rolled with Cyborg or BB but like he actually did in some comics so?? The continuity is lie I guess idk.

Did he show up in Red Hood gear or a Robin costume?

Both tbh but he spent most of the time in the Robin costume but bro actually made a stripper rip away version of his Red Hood gear so he could dramatically reveal the Robin costume underneath. I can't believe no one ever includes that in their fics its so fucking funny.

Does he call Tim 'replacement' or slit his throat?

No, this came from a Batman comic with Hush not Teen Titans. That incident takes place in a graveyard not Titans Tower and he calls Tim pretender not replacement.

Does Jason break Tim's staff?

Tragically, no. The bo staff snap would have been iconic. Instead he just takes Tim's staff and beats Tim up with it and breaks stuff. BUT!! He uses it to bust a statue in the TITANS MEMORIAL ROOM which is a place in Titans Tower just for having statues of dead previous titans and Jason is rightfully pissed he didn't get one. Like Tim is correct in saying no one forgot him still but like I would be hurt too if all my friends made cool statues of friends that died and then just left my zombie ass out, like wtf.

Note: I am seriously losing my shit that I have never seen someone bring up the memorial room in a fanfic. That is so much angst material. 😭

Tim crying/ being scared?

Hell no. He's a fucking Robin you know he's being a sassy boy the whole time, even towards the end when he's about done he's still saying he's her and I love Tim for that.

Note: There are a few different times where Tim does a flippy Robin move and then Jason just fucking copies it like flexing that he can do it too, and its just so petty and stupid he's trying so hard to be better than an actual child. 💀I get why in the context of the situation but its still so ridiculous.

Message on the wall in Tim's blood?

TBH I really don't know for sure on this one?? Like its implied that he did but Tim isn't bleeding all that much throughout this beatdown and like we don't see Jason do it just the Titans reacting to seeing it after. It could be Tim's blood, it could be red paint, and it could even be that Jason packed an actual bucket of blood to bring with him to write a message with after he finished. TBH the world is your oyster on this one.

Note: If anyone can find another comic where this event was brought up where they actually clarify it was Tim's blood hmu and I'll update this but I couldn't find any.

Pit rage/ glowing green eyes?

Fanon only at this point in the comics. Jason is seems to be himself and even thinks Tim and his friends are pretty cool at the end, and he's just like reflecting on if he had good friends if he would have turned out better as he leaves.

[ayamari-no-goshi]

I’d like to clear up some common misconceptions about the Attack on Titan Tower, aka when Jason infiltrated it to attack Tim

If you want to read this for yourself, here are some links: readallcomics - I have the best luck with this site on destop zipcomic readcomicsonline - this site can be temperamental

1) Jason did not go there to attempt to kill Tim

Jason seems to have 3 separate goals for this: - size up the new kid. - make sure he knows Bruce just sees him as another soldier - prove to Tim just how dangerous the job is (heavily implied, in my opinion, especially after Tim tried telling Jason he was wrong about how Bruce saw him) He also voiced his anger over being forgotten by everyone. Depending on your interpretation of Jason and his character, this could also be a reason. To me, this feels more like an afterthought because they moved to the Hall of Fallen Heroes before he said this, and Jason likes to be dramatic.

Side note on this. Jason never says anything about being replaced.

2) none of Tim’s injuries were life threatening

Once again, Jason was not attempting to kill him. He beat him up pretty badly, but it was designed to prove a point

3) Jason did NOT cut Tim’s throat.

That happened during Hush which predates both Under the Red Hood and Titan’s Tower. Jason was pretending to be Hush, put a knife to Tim’s throat, and put enough pressure to make him bleed (it was not an actual slice) to get Bruce to react to him. That injury was not life threatening either

4) Jason developed a respect and a bit of envy for Tim after fighting him

At the end of the issue while he’s leaving (while outside the tower), Jason acknowledges Tim’s skill. Jason also wonders if he could have had a life more similar to his, where he had friends and a better support system, if he could have had a different life.

5) Tim was NOT a damsel in distress during the fight, and he did NOT develop a fear of Jason.

Tim was making quips and dissing Jason the entire fight. Tim was not afraid of him nor did he bat an eye at being attacked by Jason. He also vocalized just how much he had to work for his cape because of how Jason's death affected Bruce

Also, the next time Tim saw Jason after this, he made sure to kick Jason in the groin

6) Jason wrote "Jason Todd was here" and signed it with a hand print on the wall.

It looks like it could be in blood, but Tim's not injured enough for there to be that much... and blood darkens after a while. There's a bit of time between Tim getting knocked out and the rest of the Titans finding him and the writing so it's probably paint. Again, Jason likes to be dramatic

7) more Robin!Jason slander by Raven

Once again, we get the mention that Jason was "aggressive". I swear, this is the only thing writers remember from Death in the Family and not the point that that behavior was out of the ordinary for Jason. This is a personal pet peeve of mine in the comics.

8) almost forgot to add the most important part, Jason made a homemade Robin costume and wore it under his Red Hood outfit because he could

Again, Jason is a dramatic bitch.

[qweenofurheart]

lol imagine having to hang out with your brother that beat the shit out of u within an inch of your life

[zealouswitchwerewolf]

Tim *on his 68th hour of no sleep trying to finish the cases he stole from the cave after being banished to titans tower because of red hood, fully believing he's all alone there*: ok but what if we blow up the tower, fake our deaths, and take a 3 week vacation? Way more effective than just sending me here and hope for the best with the unhinged murderer fixated on me.

YJ *worried about their team leader and annoyed at their mentors, actually considering*: sure, why not?

Bart: I'll go get the explosives.

Kon: but how will they know we died here?

Tim *fully invested now*: the cameras don't have audio, we have a bunch of our blood and we can drop a bag of our teeth plus some kryptonite to make it convincing.

Kon *shrugs*: close enough.

[sparkoflena]

My favorite part about Jason Todd and Tim Drake in the comics is that Jason has consistently used the same language regarding Tim from even the Titan's Tower origin.

Jason says that it's impossible for Tim to have found out Bruce's identity without it being intentional. "You can't be that good" and Tim literally hits him back with "I am." Then at the end of the fight Jason stands over a broken and bleeding out Tim and goes "do you think you're that good now?" and this guy chokes out "Yes."

During and after the attack, he sees what he missed before – that Tim is Robin in spirit (and not just because he happened to be "chosen" by Bruce like Jason assumed)

It becomes pretty consistent language. (Highly paraphrased) "Would I have been as good as him if I made those friends? Would I have been that good of a Robin/person if I was more like him?" And it is a very quick shift into admiration that grows throughout the different versions of their friendship (depending on which storyline/universe you refer to).

During the Battle of the Cowl, Jason wanted Tim to be his Robin – a job he knows would require a lot of time and trust from both of them. Anytime Tim is introduced in Jason's point of view, Tim stands out as either being "better than the other Bats" (some of the time it's just "the only one who doesn't make me want to puke" but I'll count those here too) or as being similar to Jason "both of us are outsiders together."

My favorite example, however, is from the DCeased Universe/story.

"Tim Drake: Friend. Robin. The Best of Us."

They absolutely have their terrible sniping and semi-hateful moments, but Jason's always seen Tim past the intelligence and for the Robin spirit – and admires him for it.

[burnt-coffeebeans]

Based on this post about Tim’s origin story being like a Y/N plot: link

Tim: My name is Tim Drake

Tim: I have black hair and blue eyes that make me the adoption bait for Batman but he doesn’t notice

Tim: This makes me the NEXT ROBIN!

Tim: I have two love interests: Boring Tan Caucasian (Kon) and Boring Pale Caucasian (Bernard)

Tim: My mother is a plot device… She will die now

Tim: My character flaws include being addicted to coffee and not sleeping

Tim: My father has forced me to quit being Robin… He will die now

Tim: This is the part where I get into a battle and a close call with death gives me an identity crisis~!

Tim: ✨ the identity crisis is symbolic of my character development ✨

Tim: Plot twist! Batman is dead!

Tim: Batman has once again lived!

Tim: ✨Bird metaphor ✨

[brucewaynehater101]

I'm bad at math, but is Bruce theoretically 38 years old when he goes into the time stream?

Hear me out (and canon likes to fluncate their ages, so this is my best guess without trying to account for birthdays):

Bruce becomes the legal guardian of 9 year old Dick when he's 23. That's a 14 year difference.

Jason becomes Robin when Dick leaves at 18. Jason is 13. That's a five year difference.

Jason dies at 15, and Tim becomes Robin at 13. That's a two year difference.

The age difference between Tim and Bruce would thus be 21 years.

Tim becomes Red Robin to find Bruce at 17.

That means that Bruce had to be 38, right? Why was I imagining him closer to 50?

Adopting so many kids must have aged him

[ravenlilyrose]

If Jason had tried to break into a Young Justice base, he would have run into so many Home Alone/Loony Tunes traps that he never even got close to Tim before he ended up. Hanging upside down and. Covered in some kind of blue goo. Or something.

Meanwhile, Tim is snoring comically loudly with visible 💤 coming out of his mouth.

How he reacts when he wakes up depends entirely on whether the traps were Bart being bored for an hour and then forgetting about them or a full team bonding activity. Either seems plausible.

[notfeelingthyaster]

"oh jason almost murdered tim in titan's tower" well he might have carved him up a little, but tim absolutely send him back to his grave. tim looked at that fresh zombie ass and went "well guess who's back, the failure!"

[magnoliasandarson]

(T)imposter Syndrome

He didn't need Jason (his hero) beating him to a bloody pulp and calling him "replacement". He was already painfully aware he was a placeholder.

Alfred kept him at arm's length and Bruce could barely speak a sentence to him that wasn't case related. Dick was a light in the darkness, but even he was trying to prove he could be a good brother because he failed with Jason. His parents only tolerated his existence on the best of days, and the Titans were not the family Dick promised they would be. (Maybe Kon would miss him)

He had photographed the costumed Wayne's from afar for years. It was pathetic and sad, but because of it he knew them. He knew he was being looked through. Even if they were looking through him though, they were looking to him. It was beyond pathetic, but he could handle the vacant stares if it meant their eyes were on him.

Laying in a pool of his own blood, Tim stared at the steadily darkening ceiling. He hadn't cried when Jason attacked him, when his hero back-from-the-dead jammed their symbol into his chest. He hadn't cried when Jason walked away, leaving him to die alone. As strange as it was, he decided he wouldn't cry about this. He should've known better, he didn't deserve to cry about his folly. (I'll give you something to cry about.)

His eyes closed of their own accord, and he used whatever strength he had left to yank the bloodied R from his chest. This was what he deserved for trying to be the one in front of the camera.

[ghost-bxrd]

Tim can’t breathe. He can’t breathe.

He thought— the Tower was bad enough. He hates being kept out of the loop, especially for “his own protection”, but he never thought—

It is Robin who had been threatened. Robin that Batman had been taunted with. Enough times, and with grisly enough descriptions of what might happen to him, that Bruce sent Tim to the Titans as a last ditch effort to keep him well out of reach of Gotham and its newly minted crime lord.

But Hood took Bernard, and Tim can’t breathe. Can only stare at the grainy picture from an unknown number, showing his boyfriend tied up and gagged in someone’s— Hood’s, probably, oh god— bed.

Tim wants to throw up.

Please god, please no.

— sneak peek of “Modern Day Cain”

[mikakuna]

i am once again begging for jason fic recs but this time i'm gonna be more specific. pls plsss share any fics you guys have read that doesn't include pit madness, jason apologizing to tim, jason feeling bad about what he did to tim, or anything to do with tim. if it has to do with tim, i hope it's someone acknowledging tim's role in badmouthing robin jason (literally impossible i think) or them only having a relationship if it's not built on jason feeling guilty and tim being a baby twink