#FUCK THE NEW 52

[internetgiraffekid1673]

Ramblings About Batfam Comics I Read This Week

So. I spent this week reading unhealthy amounts of batfam comics, and I have thoughts!

I have now read the entirety of the Red Robin solo comic, all of Batgirl Volume 3 (Stephanie Brown's batgirl run), Batman: the Road Home because I kinda had to for context, about half of the currently running Batgirls comic (Cass and Steph share the Batgirl role with Barbara as their mentor and also sometimes Batgirl), and The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller.

Why these? Simple, I wanted to read Batgirls, I wanted Red Robin Tim, and I wanted Carrie Kelley's existence. So, without further ado, here are my major thoughts!

You know me, my ramblings turn into long essays, so it all goes under a cut and subsections! As per usual, TL;DR at the bottom!

Multiple Comics:

1. Comics are funnier than we give them credit for. Even the edgiest ones I was reading left me cracking up every once in a while.

2. I have maintained this since I first started learning about the BatFam, and I will maintain it till I die---Batman has partners, not sidekicks. They don't follow his orders. He doesn't LET them do anything. He runs around doing damage control while a bunch of absolutely feral children fight crime. Batman doesn't make heroes. He finds heroes and makes sure they have access to a decent first aid kit, training, and some morals.

3. Stephanie Brown is a BAMF who does NOT get the love she deserves. Not only is she smart, determined, and awesome in a fight, she's got something that many batfam characters lack: kindness. Stephanie is sweet and adorkable and nice to everyone while still managing to be a chaotic, hypercompetent, sarcastic menace to society. I'll go into more details under the Batgirl v. 3 section, but I am now a massive Stephanie Brown stan, and I will not tolerate slander! Put some respect on the name of Stephanie f*cking Brown!

4. I am now both a shipper of TimSteph and CassSteph. With occasional HarperSteph. This is unsurprising. I have multiple characters I like together in most mediums, and I don't give a crap about canon, so I can ship whichever one I'm in the mood for! :)

5. In a similar vein, reading the comics very much stoked my already strong DickBabs fire. I love me so Birdflash, RobStar, and Babs/Kara, but I'm beginning to think DickBabs is my favorite combo.

6. Stephanie's OG spoiler costume is her best one, but she's at her best characterization as v. 3 Batgirl.

7. F*CK YOU NEW 52! Nobody likes you, and you ruin everything! You robbed me of my favorite incarnations of these characters! DEATH TO THE NEW 52! BURN, YOU DISGUSTING INSULT TO NARRATIVE CONSISTENCY!

8. Damian and Dick as Batman and Robin are honestly precious together. I only got bits and pieces viewed through Batgirl and Red Robin's eyes, but I really like them and their dynamic with both each other and everyone else. I think my favorite thing is definitely that they have named combo moves where they complete each other's quips. It's adorable.

9. Bruce is a well-meaning a**hole. He really does care about his family, but he needs to trust them more and get MUCH better at communicating.

10. Did you know everybody has a cool base outside of the Batcave? Damian and Dick are based in Wayne Tower, Tim has his Nest, Babs has the Clocktower, and Steph's Team Batgirl has the Firewall which is below Oracle's apartment.

Red Robin Solo Run

1. Tim is one cool BAMF. Man fought the whole Court of Spiders at once---who were killing League of Assasins members for fun BTW---and won and got the civilian bystander out safely. He blew up ALL of Ra's Al Ghul's bases, then fought off Ra's double threat of a hostile takeover on Wayne Enterprises and attempts to assasinate all of Batman's loved ones. He took down the evil, corruptive, hive-mind dark-net that supervillains use to communicate (yes this is a thing that exists). He successfully got evidence that Batman was alive when NOBODY else believed him and then was one of the first to actually know he was back and easily pass Bruce's tests (yes, Bruce tested people instead of telling them he was alive, because he is a well-meaning a**hole).

3. Tim is an edgy teenager. He does at least as much brooding as Batman, but with this sarcasm and dry wit behind everything that Batman doesn't really have. Tim has a consistent "Well f*ck my life, I guess," mentality that is FASCINATING to read, and is the source of a lot of his humor. He has a habit of reacting to really dramatic and serious situations with a deadpan "Welp. That ain't good. Guess I'll either figure it out or die trying."

2. Tim is apparently a chick-magnet. Just in Red Robin, he's got a thing going with Tam Fox and Lynx, Prudence Wood thinks he's sexy, he almost gets raped by Ra's Al Ghul's half-sister, and he and Steph still have feelings about each other that primarily consist of "why does my ex have to be so hot?" I am now incorporating this fact into ALL of my headcanons. It also makes for some fun drama, because all of these ladies (except maybe Steph) are way more into Red Robin than they are Tim Drake, even if they're aware of his identity. I find this objectively hilarious.

3. Tim's cowl is stupid. Apparently, the artist got the memo about halfway through the comic since tim has a pretty cool, uniquely shaped domino mask when he's in the Ünternet. This should be his mask in all appearances. Clearly unique to Red Robin, but not the stupid earless cowl.

4. Tim has SOME sort of neurodivergence going on because my man hyperfixates like nobody's business. He literally has a page where he rambles about how something'll catch his attention and he'll get sucked into it and give it his whole focus and be unable to stop thinking about it, to the detriment of his other commitments.

5. Tim somehow manages to have a thriving social life and no social life at all, and the comic agrees with me. He regularly teams up with the Teen Titans and other Gotham Weirdos TM. He's got a civilian ally/life companion in the form of Tam Fox. He has his guy in the chair, Money Spider a.k.a. Anarky a.k.a Lonnie Machin. He's got Prudence Wood and a couple of other folks with questionable morals on his payroll. And of course, he's got Bruce. He even tells Ra's at some point, "I'm not Batman. I have friends." But he also seems to do a really good job at not telling people things and thus being isolated anyway. He doesn't really doesn't share much of his personal stuff with anyone, especially not initially, so they can't really help him with stuff or provide him with the right companionship. This is perhaps most evident in his relationship with Tam Fox, which he effectively destroys by not telling her that her father Lucius isn't actually dead, and Tim just faked it for one of his plans. He didn't even forget, he just deemed not telling her the best course of action. Both he and Batman are concerned about this.

6. Tim has MASSIVE supervillain vibes. Like, Tim would make the BEST supervillain if he hadn't decided to be so heroic. Lemme. Lemme just give you a list.

Tim has a hit list. And those aren't my words. He calls it a hit list. It's mostly supervillains, and he specifically designs his schemes so that one arrest leads directly into the next. But it also has Robin as a contingency plan and a couple of other people who are decidely not bad guys.

He's a schemer. Bruce's whole test for him involves testing how he does at improvising because Tim has a penchant for creating carefully crafted plans like some sort of maniacal supervillain. And they work pretty much every time.

Tim's subconscious mind manifests as The Riddler. Lemme explain. While Tim is in the virtual reality, Ready-Player-One-esque dark net that the supervillains have set up, his attempt to puzzle out what's going on manifests as The Riddler giving him cryptic clues. The Riddler. THE RIDDLER! This is decidedly his own doing, not the Ünternet's.

Tim keeps his morals because he promised Batman, not because he actually has those morals himself. This sounds worse than it is. It's not like he actively wishes to break his moral code, he just comments multiple times in sticky situations that he would do X thing if it wouldn't be so disappointing to Batman and other people. On multiple occassions (see, blowing up the LoA bases), he actually does X thing because he thinks it's more important than approval.

Tim has ambitions to make Gotham the leader of the world. He specifically starts a number of international outreach programs for Wayne Enterprises with making Gotham the World Hub in mind. He has other altruistic reasons, but this is the one he's most focused on. This scheme also inspires Bruce to start Batman Inc., a.k.a. the thing Bruce has been doing since his return from his vacation in the time stream. Tim acknowledges that he's the inspiration and also that Bruce does not consciously know he was inspired by Tim.

He's manipulative and will work with all kinds of people if it serves his goals. This includes unpredictable people like Anarky, dangerous people like Man Bat, and morally questionable people like Lynx and Prudence Wood. His manipulation tactics mostly come in the form of cutting off other people's options until helping him is their best choice and withholding information until sharing it suits him. Batman in the making.

You see what I mean? Kid would make a GREAT criminal mastermind. Definitely got them villain vibes.

7. F*CK YOU NEW 52. The comic ended really abruptly on an ominous note with an unfinished plot because suddenly we had to do a whole reboot of the universe. Because the New 52 SUCKS!

Batgirl Volume 3

1. *ahem* STEPHANIE BROWN IS THE BEST CHARACTER! STEPH STANS UNITE! WE RIDE AT DAWN!

2. No, but seriously. I mentioned in the general section that Stephanie is a total BAMF who also has SO much heart! I think something really unique about her is her ability to be kind to and befriend literally anyone.

She becomes tentative friends with this absolute jerk girl Jordanna who's really mean to Steph because she's possesive of her friends, who all think Steph is cool. Steph doesn't judge, presses on, and manages to get Jordanna to at least accept her, if not be actively kind to her.

It's due to Steph's efforts that Wendy Harris a.k.a. Proxy a.k.a. Oracle in Training really feels accepted in her new hero role.

Steph looked at Damian in the height of his brat era and said, "You know what this kid needs? A bouncy house! Yeah, I'mma teach him how to have fun and be a kid by forcibly taking him to a bouncy castle!"

Batgirl is noted as. . .not as legal as Batman, but she still manages to make her own police force connection.

She's helpful and chill to Klarion the Witch Boy even though, as usual, all their problems in that issue are his fault.

She beats up a dude who's trying to blow up a train, and her ability and tenacity impress him so much that he becomes the Grey Ghost and tries to help her out. She thinks it's annoying and is worried about him (rightfully so, since he gets shot), but she does listen to him.

Steph will look at almost anyone with kindness and without judgement and has an astounding capability to befriend people because of this.

3. Steph is FREAKING HILARIOUS! Steph is probably the chattiest hero, especially when she's fighting bad guys, and it is both so effective and SO funny! She'll just start totally random conversations about WHATEVER while she's busy beating people up, and it makes me cackle every time. She also literally teaches people banter and gives them turns! It's amazing! Like, I'm not sure I'd call her quippy since she's not actually usually insulting people. She's just making casual, friendly conversation at really inappropriate times for it.

4. That's not the only way she's funny, either. Steph also has "inner monologue problems" where she'll say her thoughts out loud. This becomes a running gag to the point that Babs'll continually have to tell her she's using her "outside voice." It's funny and awkward every time! And then there's her habit of paraphrasing stuff that culminates when she tells Wendy the entire batfamily history in chibi doodles with absolutely zero respect. Never fear, Stephanie is here to make you laugh!

5. Steph is a GRADE A BAD-A**! My girl will challenge anyone, get in over her head, make decisions on the fly, and still win! Technically, this is a Batman Road Home Moment, but when Batman pulls his "I'm testing people instead of telling them I'm back" BS on Steph, she b*tch slaps him and then runs away while saying "I'm glad you're not dead." Bruce's only response is Bruce-speak for "I deerved that." When literally all of Gotham turns into mind controlled zombies that are after her, she outruns them by hijacking an equally mind-controlled ManBat, wrangling him until they crash into the airport, and then hitching a ride with Proxy in the T-Jet that they barely know how to fly. This works. Even when she's getting knocked around, Steph is kicking butt, taking names, and refusing to let her frankly awful lot in life get her down.

6. Steph is an improviser. My girl almost never has a plan. She thrives on the chaos. She's far more likely to disobey orders and go in guns blazing and figure it out on the fly than waste time trying to meticulously plan out something that'll probably go wrong anyway. Like, she knows the value of planning and does it every once in a while, but I feel like Steph would win almost any fight where both parties have 0 prep time simply because she's so much better at thinking on the fly and getting herself out of scrapes than anyone else.

7. Steph doesn't follow ANYONE'S orders because she is an independent adult, dammit! At the beginning of the issue, Cassandra Cain runs off to Hong Kong and hands off the Batgirl mantle to Steph. Literally everyone she comes across gives her crap for not being Cass, tells her to stop, and thinks that she shouldn't be doing that job. Everyone from random street level goons to Barbara and Dick. Steph doesn't listen and keeps going until she finally shows off enough determination that Babs gets her head out of her ass. Even after that, Steph'll happily disregard orders from Oracle, Batman, Red Robin, her mom, the cops and anyone else who tries to boss her around if she thinks it'll help. And the best part is, she's right almost every time. Steph has good judgement. She knows when she's right, and she won't let anyone tell her different.

8. I absolutely loved the dynamics between all the members of Team Batgirl. Babs taking Steph under her wing and helping her come into her own as Batgirl is amazing. One of the sweetest moments in the whole thing is when Babs gifts Steph the original Batgirl costume (she'd been using Cass's up until that point). In turn, Steph helps Babs open up and find joy and purpose in her life again, when she'd mostly been running on spite at that point. They also are so in sync with each other that it's hilarious. My favorite example is, in a situation that is getting progressively worse, Babs and Steph have the exact same inner monologue: "Crap. DOUBLE crap." It only gets better when Wendy's around, with Steph and Babs connecting to her issues each in their own way. It's beautiful and really helps Wendy grow as a person and heal her heart.

9. Steph needs to do more team ups with people. Yes, she's fantastic and compelling by herself, but she becomes downright marvelous when she's got someone to bounce off of, and her natural friendliness makes her a good pick for team ups. One of my favorite issues was definitely the one where she hung out with Kara and they beat up vampires together. It was adorable.

10. F*CK YOU NEW 52! WHY DID YOU TAKE THIS FROM ME?! WTF!

Batman: The Road Home

1. I only really read this one for context on what was going on in Batgirl and Red Robin, but I do have a couple thoughts.

2. Alfred and Co. have basically kidnapped Hush a.k.a. Thomas Elliot and are holding him hostage in a penthouse. They force him to do appearances as Bruce Wayne while Bruce is still missing, and he is soooooooo salty about this. This is objectively funny.

3. Vicki Vale is actually a really cool character who deserves better. A bit lacking in the common sense and self-preservation departments, but cool nonetheless. She's pushy and invasive and catty, but she is good at her job and I would be just as irritated as her if I had fallen as far from grace as her.

3. Bruce, you're an a**hole. You wanna tell people you're home instead of putting them through insane tests of skill and character while disguised as some random and possibly malevolent vigilante? They GRIEVED you! Some of them are probably STILL grieving! Give Dick a hug dammit!

4. Ra's, you're a creepy weirdo. Go back to brooding in your vampire box now please!

The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller

1. These books are REALLY FREAKING GOOD. I know, who woulda thought, seeing as how it's one of the most popular and talked about Batman comics ever. But seriously. You should read these. I was reluctant to do so, since a lot of people were like "Oh it's Frank Miller, he's edgy, and his Batman has all the tired edgy Batman tropes." I'm sorry, you don't see him using guns, you don't see him killing anyone, you don't see him being a terrible person. This Batman NEEDS a therapist. Desperately. But he's also still a good person. This is ACTUALLY cool edgy Batman, where his issues are used to create a more compelling narrative, not the "cool" edgy Batman that operates under the "grimdark is cool" principle.

2. I almost cried a couple times! This comic has an overwhelming melancholy feel that I just really enjoyed. Everything and everyone feels tired and sad. Everyone. The best part is that this comic is told primarily from Bruce's perspective and Bruce is SO empathetic and caring, that he feels not only his own melancholy, but everybody else's too, and it's so effective! I think the best example is when Two-Face, recently released from Arkham, goes full relapse and Batman is forced to tie him up and leave him for the cops. He looks at Harvey and just goes "That's a kindred spirit, and I feel for him."

3. The story is told interspersed with TV stations and news radio fighting and bickering and reporting. Nobody is quite sure what to make of the Batman situation, and almost all of them feel negatively about it. The only reporter who actually seems in support of Batman is Lana Lang, and she's also one of the few people who feels RATIONAL during the comic. Like, everybody is reacting very poorly and with panic and contempt towards Batman's return, and it really really isn't helpful. You get this feeling of "it's us against the world," and it really contributes to the vibes.

4. Bruce is an old man. He's technically only 55, but a lifetime of fighting crime, trying (and failing to quit), and becoming dependent on alcohol to keep away the nightmares and the call to dress up as The Rodent of Vengeance will seriously mess up your body. Every time he gets in a fight, he is extremely conscious of how slow he is, how much more he can feel each hit, how much of an advantage all of the youngsters he's fighting have on him. It's to the point that he literally has to plan around his old age and failing body.

5. Alfred is PEAK SASSY in here, and it's beautiful! I actually think this might have the best characterization of Alfred, like, ever. He loves Bruce. That's his kid. Not his master. His kid. He's not gonna leave him alone. But, he also has too much dedication to his role as "butler" to actually stop him from doing anything STUPID, so he resorts to just sassing the man RUTHLESSLY instead. And for all the sass he gives Bruce about being Batman, he's also just as deep into this weird lifestyle. The highlight is definitely Alfred telling Bruce after the first night out that if it's suicide he's after, Alfred has an old family recipe that will be just as slow and excruciating, but less illegal.

6. Commissioner Gordon does not, never has, and never will get paid enough for dealing with this. Commissioner Yindel has no idea what steaming pile of sh*t she's just stepped into, and Gordon tried to warn her. Gordon, even though he continues to not particularly approve, remains one of Batman's staunchest allies through the whole thing. It's actually really heartwarming to see their "brothers in arms" thing they've got going.

7. OHMIGOSH CARRIE KELLEY! That is one AMAZING Robin right there!

Do you know how she becomes Robin? She sees Gordon turn on the batsignal, and she's ✨inspired✨ She saves up two weeks of lunch money, buys a Robin costume, grabs a slingshot and some fireworks, and starts fighting criminals and discreetly following Batman around. Like, that's just some sheer tenacity right there! My girl has moxie! She has grit! She has heart! She's the perfect Robin!

Anytime I do stuff with Carrie Kelley, I will be including the fireworks. Her first act as Robin is to stick a firecracker in a mugger's back pocket. Seriously.

Her first thing she does with Batman is to follow him to a really dangerous fight, find him at the end, drag his unconscious, broken body back to the batmobile, splints his arm with her girl scout training, and get him back to Alfred so he doesn't DIE! Batman, already feeling extremely sad because he misses Dick, decides to train her and take her on.

Poor Carrie! Her parents are awful! Like, they don't remember they have a kid level awful! Being with Bruce might be child endangerment, and he might be a quiet stoic bastard who keeps threatening to fire her, but at least he acknowledges her existence!

Carrie, my darling, my dear, my sweet baby girl, I don't understand HALF the stuff that comes out of your mouth! You and your 80s slang. Sweet mercy.

8. I think this universe had a. . .um. . . Marvel Civil War thing. Like, the whole thing is that Superman works for the government, invisibly, instead of publicly. He has to follow their orders, and he doesn't like it, but it does mean he still gets to save people. Oliver/Green Arrow apparently didn't listen and is rotting in jail (Bruce has to bust him out in the last issue). It's implied to be, along with the death of Jason, the thing that made Batman quit. Now that he's back, the whole government is NOT HAPPY about it. They mostly just try to ignore him with "not my circus, not my monkeys," but, the president does sic Clark on him to try to talk him down. Clark predicts that this'll go badly, but tries anyway. His prediction is correct.

9. Poor Selina! You didn't deserve that. TBH, nobody except Joker deserves what happens to them in this book. It's all just really tragic and sad.

10. Bruce is a deeply unwell man in this comic. Like, he definitely seems at his most emotionally healthy and lucid while he's being Batman, but that kind of obsessive drive clearly isn't good for him, mentally or physically. He's kind of just, purposeless and slipping away before he takes up the cowl, and afterwards, he is so so sad and feels like he's succumbed to his worst impulses. It's a lose lose lose situation for him. Poor dude.

11. F*ck you Joker. 'Nuff said. Stay dead this time please.

12. Batman, you've emotionally adopted Carrie. I know you're actively doing child endangerment and stuff, but you care about this little girl. You can stop referring to her as "good soldier."

13. The shot of Batman on the horse makes me want to write a Wild West AU of Batman, because that was a vibe and a half!

14. Just go read this one, seriously, it's good.

TL;DR

I know I didn't put in a segment on Batgirls, but I wanna finish that one first! It'll probably get it's own post!

Basically, this post boils down to:

Batfam comics are really great. I like reading the comics. At least the outdated ones that I was reading.

Steph is the best, put some respect on her name.

Comic books are funny.

Comics are heartwarming.

Tim has supervillain vibes and sad wet cat vibes at the same time.

The Dark Knight Returns is really sad and really good.

F*CK THE NEW 52!

That's all I've got for you! I still gonna be stewing on these for DAYS, but this at least helped get it out of my system. Now go read some comic books!

[evilwickedme]

You know if the n52 hadn't happened like that. And they had actually made effort to rehabilitate Jason and get him to the point where he's an antihero rather than a villain. If they'd taken their time. Honestly that would've fucked. Instead we have whatever Scott Lobdell cheated us into and it's just like. Obviously Jason stories are going to be mediocre. They didn't take the good Jason story and build on it to develop his character, they just took his costume and created a brand new character, just like everybody else in n52, but unlike so many other characters who'd had long-standing characterizations Jason was essentially free putty in Scotty's hands and he made So Many Bad Choices and Jason hasn't had the chance to break free from that. Might actually never get that chance. And that combined with the deteriorating Batman writing making it so his role as a dark mirror to Bruce is low-key irrelevant cause Bruce killing Jason was originally supposed to be something he wouldn't choose to do and now him beating Jason half to death is a matter of course, means you can't tell a Jason centric story that stands on its own (cause all of his anti-hero characterization depends on that one bad ur-story) and you can't tell a Jason as Bruce's shadow/foil story.

So what we really need is a new UTRH for Jason. Metaphorically, not literally. Stop going back to his childhood. We get it, DC, you want to present him as a bad seed. What we need is to have a full length story dedicated to explain how he turned from a villain to an antihero, a minimum of 12 issues. Ideally it would build on UTRH and rewrite some of the less enjoyable parts of Lost Days. I want it to show Jason as a full on villain, doing villainous things, and not excuse them. I want DC to remember that he didn't want to eradicate crime, but rather control it, and I want to see him do that. And then I want him to make a genuine realization - whether internal vis a vis moral compass or external vis a vis something forcing his hand - that what he's doing isn't working, and I want to see the decisions that lead to him working with the family (ie. how do Tim and and Jason trust each other enough to have the waffle conversation in the beginning of RHatO n52??) and the slow rise into antihero status. Reestablish who he really is, using the good pre-52 stuff, and then you can tell a good story with Jason, bc you're not building on top of actual garbage anymore.

Anyway, that's just my take on things. I'm still new to this fandom, so maybe I'm missing something.

[theerurishipper]

Tim Drake, for no reason at all:

Dick Grayson, Tim's big brother in every conceivable way for the past several years:

[necrotic-nephilim]

what's fun about shipping Tim with Dick, Jason, or Damian is he has, at some point, hallucinated all of them to comfort himself. even when he doesn't like them or particularly get along with them, he has to imagine/hallucinate them just so he has the power to go on. Tim's concepts of the Robin mantle and what it should be is so fun, because he respects the others through the Robin mantle. Tim worships Dick because he was the first Robin. he wouldn't be Robin if Jason hadn't died in the mantle. and a lot of his frustration with Damian is he feels Damian isn't honoring the mantle correctly. when you ship Tim with the other Robins you can't divorce their identities as Robin from it because Tim will always see them as a Robin first and that's so fun and fucked up. like.

batman (1940) #456

Tim perceiving Dick as *Robin* cheering him on, not Nightwing, which is the version of Dick that Tim actually knows? that's just. wild of him. he will always view Dick as Robin first, his personal hero but also the original of the legacy. his love for Dick is shaped by that.

and then of course, even when he's hallucinating/imagining Jason cheering him on, it's *still* through the lense of being reminded how Jason failed? subconsciously believing that Jason got himself killed because of his actions, and that being a lesson for Tim to learn from? Jason isn't a person to Tim, he's a moral lesson about how to be Robin. any potential idolization he could have of Jason isn't because he loves Jason, it's because of the lessons Jason's death taught him.

and then, even though him hallucinating TIm is from the New-52, which makes characterization all kinds of questionable, i do think it makes sense for TIm to hallucinate/imagine Damian after Damian's death in an attempt to cope with it.

teen titans (2011) #18

to an extend, he sees Damian's death as in part his own fault. and even hating Damian, Tim needs the comfort from this to cope with Damian being gone. he's angry that Damian even was Robin, and has to learn something from Damian's death and how it impacts the Robin mantle, and teenage heroes as a whole. like, Tim can pretend he hates Damian all he wants, even getting taunted by the image of Damian, but there's still an underlying love to their relationship.

i think that's just the fun of shipping Tim with any of them. you will never divorce Tim's views of them from the Robin mantle and how fucking Unwell he is about anyone else who's been Robin before or after him, to the point he has to hallucinate them comforting him when he's at his lowest. it's always going to be a little unhealthy, a little toxic, and driven by Tim's relationship with being Robin as well. i need more Tim being weird about Robin in these ships.

[damianbugs]

thinking about a fic where duke gets de aged to eight years old memories and all so he wakes up thinking its still zero year. cass and tim are like wuh oh we need to handle this make sure he doesn't panic and are trying to figure out the best way to approach this when bruce without saying anything just removes his cowl and kneels down to duke all "it's nice to see you again, duke" and duke's like "mr wayne! what happened! did the riddler catch us? what are you ��� i knew you were batman!"

the others are like what the fuck. what's happening here? and this is how they find out the only reason bruce is currently alive is because duke and doug thomas fished his comatose ass out of gotham harbour and elaine thomas nursed him back to health for like a month. jason thinks this is absolutely hilarious. damian is very impressed.

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

Yo, the fact Steph loves her mom is one of the best things about her! Steph is angry at the world cause she cares so much! So naturally N52 tried to ruin it by making her mom party to Arthur's crimes and gaslight Steph about it.

oh cool I feel normal about that

[scribe-of-hael]

Hasbro: we will make s2 Earthspark awful BUT , but , we ARE making a new tf show !

Ok what is it -

Hasbro: CYBERVERSE!!!! AGAIN!:D

...

Are fucking kidd-

Hasbro: THAT crosses over with a Chinesse kids show with 52 episodes planned ! :D OK BYEEEEEEE~

[rollforjackass]

i could KILL him for this. motherfucker's every interaction with children has him being, if not nice, then at minimum kind and forgiving and genuinely invested in their wellbeing.

he asks crying kids what's the matter, he's afraid to hold a baby because he's worried he'll drop it, he goes after people who are mean to kids without a second thought. his whole mentorship with timothy hunter is him trying to do right by that kid no matter how he feels about it at the time. man would be the most loving dad in the world but because of his own awful goddamn father and the ways he thinks he takes after thomas, he doesn't think that's true. i hate.

[royboyfanpage]

Subjected myself to The Horrors (RHaTO) anyway here's a collection of hell. This may piss off some people so disclaimer, you're allowed to like RHaTO from the new 52, the content you consume does not influence your quality as a person. I just happen to hate it with a burning passion.

Constant insults and namecalling (I'm including mad scientist in this because I just hate that description):

One sided dependency and hero worship of Jason Todd (trying to be affectionate and Jason just fucking threatens him.):

Infantilisation, demeaning, and generally just making him out as a dumb teen in an adult man's body (including him sleeping with Kory because the idea that he'd just immediately sleep with his supposed best friend's girlfriend (and actual best friend's ex) without hesitation is so demeaning):

General ignorance of prior material (why was his addiction changed to alcoholism and why was it triggered because of shares and why did KILLER CROC get him sober???):

Yeah. Uh. No.

Was about to post but then I remembered one more New 52 thing and then I'll shut up:

He forgot the boy who once called him dad >:(

Edit: apparently that bitch isn't even Bart. Still, he was an imposter of Bart and Roy still didn't know who he was an imposter of, so point still stands

[wahbegan]

Something something Batman is a billionaire fascist discourse ignores the fact that Batman has his roots in the hardboiled detective story, which thematically was written at a time when trust in the police was at a catastrophic low and as such mainly deals with private detectives kinda extralegally cracking cases that the cops are either not solving or actively obstructing and his conflict with the police has remained a fairly consistent point in most of his stories outside the Golden Age of Comics, Commissioner Gordon is the exception not the rule something something

[lesbian-cowpoke]

Things I will never forgive DC for in the new 52:

Any Batman storyline, really. (Especially Forever Evil, anything past Rebirth, especially especially the marriage and Bane storylines) (I suppose I can forgive Endgame bcs it gave us Duke)

RIC GRAYSON

Retconning the Arrow Family

ALFRED'S DEATH

THEY TOOK AWAY JASON'S GUNS

Heros in Crisis

The aging up of Jon Kent (and essentially losing the great amazing super sons dynamic)

[nando161mando]

Elon Musk — dead at 52 — RIP.

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

"That was the 21st century Batman and Robin, THEY'VE BLOWN IT! Those guys were IT."

"My favourite part of [my run of Batman] is when Dick Grayson took over [as Batman], I could've written that for 10 years!" -Grant Morrison on Dick and Damian as the Dynamic Duo.

Source: Fatman on Batman

[transmasculinizing]

morally gray talia i miss u everyday

[necrotic-nephilim]

@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

[goldenthyme]

It's very funny to see people who dislike Roy/Jason to be like "because I do not like the new 52 Roy."

Like 99.99% of the fan content is either a Rebirth! Inspired Roy with his old backstory renewed or pre-52 roy with just 52 asthetics

The only thing is they add that he hung out with Jason and Kori.