#Anti valar

[feanoryen]

I don’t understand people who demonize Feanor pre 1st Kinslaying because genuinely what was he supposed to do?

How is he wrong for despising Indis who was creepily obsessed with his father even before his mother died and took her first chance to throw herself at his grieving father given the opportunity?

How is he wrong for not loving his half siblings who are a permanent reminder of his father & the Valar betraying his mother & leaving her to die?

How is he in the wrong for not giving up the Silmarills?

How is he wrong for wanting revenge for his murdered father when the actual villains are the Valar who doomed him, his kin, & his people for…. seeking justice for their king?

The Valar had the power to help this severely traumatized, depressed, & mentally ill person and guide him to be less destructive.

They chose not to. Every interaction between Feanor & the Valar are them actively making his life worse and then Manwe has the audacity to cry over him as if he couldn’t have prevented this tragedy.

While I think Olwe & the Teleri should have been willing to teach the Noldor to build ships at least, the 1st Kinslaying is obviously still unjustified since Feanor did have a way to middle earth without killing (the Helcaraxe), but before that everyone else is being a bigger asshole than Feanor and pushing him to his inevitable breaking point.

[echo-bleu]

I feel like the way the Valar treat the Children (the Eldar especially) is kind of like... late adolescents. Yes, you're technically an adult and we'll give you some independence, but we're also absolutely going to make your decisions for you if we think it's best for you. Besides, you're living in our house, that means you obey our rules.

Oh, you think exile for 120 years being grounded for a year is an unjust punishment for drawing a sword on Fingolfin punching your half-brother? Well what are you gonna do, uh? Leave this house?

Oh, you want to got to war against Morgoth go to art school when I, who pays for your studies, decided you should study law? Well go on then, but you better hope to be successful, because I'm not going to provide aid and weapons give you a single cent. And don't come back crying if you predictably fail to make a living. And don't expect us to take pity when you're in Mandos keep your room for you while you're gone.

You got caught kinslaying doing drugs? Well I won't have any of that in my house. You can go get burned by a Silmaril spend a few months in jail, it will teach you. And you failed to kill the evil overlord sue your terrible landlord? Maybe you should have gone to law school after all, uh? How about I deal with the landlord for you, destroy Beleriand in the process take the damage and interest money for myself (I advocated for you, after all) and leave you homeless unless you crawl back home on your knees?

(I'm writing some War of Wrath pieces and trying to restrain myself from being too mean to Eönwë, this is a good release. I don't think the Valar actually mean to be quite that bad, they're just... making some decisions.)

[dfwbwfbbwfbwf]

Honestly, it feels like the Valar only got involved in Beleriand for the Silmarils.

Warning to Eri, this isn't very pro-Valar.

For starters, it really seems like the only reason they didn't go after Morgoth earlier was to spite Fëanáro for refusing to give the Silmarils to them. This is something they'd been upset about long before the Trees were destroyed. Heaven forbid he keep his stuff with him. Even before the Trees died, they wanted the Silmarils. I think the only reason they didn't covet them is because Tolkien didn't want to make them evil, but they basically coveted them.

Ulmo killed every Noldo who tried to return to Valinor for help. Even the ones who had nothing to do with Alqualondë. Even the ones who hadn't even chosen to leave to begin with because they weren't born. There's only one exception: Voronwë.

Voronwë, who brought Tuor to Gondolin. Without Voronwë, Tuor and Idril would never have met. Without Voronwë, Eärendil would've never been born. Without Voronwë, Eärendil would've never brought the Silmaril to Valinor.

Am I implying Ulmo only spares Voronwë so that the Valar would get the Silmaril? Maybe.

Ulmo also was the one who inspired Turgon and Finrod to make Gondolin and Nargothrond. Gondolin kept Idril safe long enough to meet Tuor. Nargothrond kept Finrod safe long enough to die for Beren to get the Silmaril. Literally everything Ulmo did had the consequence of getting the Silmaril to Aman. I don't know if that was his intention, but it doesn't really matter because it's what happened.

When Eärendil brought the Silmaril, it was a sign to the Valar that Morgoth was weak enough to take the rest. He also brought news that the Fëanárions were too weak to stop Morgoth. Too weak to stop the Host of Valinor from taking the Silmarils as a war prize.

Is this a particularly charitable interpretation of the Valar? No, but I'm not in a particularly charitable mood as of now. Sorry, Eri, if you made it this far.

I just feels like the whole First Age was a long con done by the Valar to get their main sources of competition to kill each other so they could swoop in and take what they wanted.

[thelandswemadeofpaper]

Another Feanor and Rhaenyra Parallel

I caught myself wondering the parallels of Feanor pointing his sword at Fingolfin and Luke taking Aemond's eye out

Of course HOTD was worse, a child lost his eye, while Feanor just pointed a sword at his adult half-brother, but there are similiarities, one of them begin Finwe taking Feanor (older child from first wife)'s side

But I now have this idea of this happening in Silm, maybe not the sons, but between the grandchildren of Finwe

A descendant of Miriel taking a descendant of Indis's eye out in a fight

Maedhros and Fingolfin? To keep the 'uncle and nephew' theme?

Maedhros and Finarfin? Since Aemond is the youngest son?

Maedhros and Fingon? Because of their friendship?

Celegorm and Finrod? To make Nargothrond more dramatic

Celebrimbor? And who? Galadriel?

But why? What would be their 'Vhagar'? What they possible could do similar? Start embroidering? It need to be something Indis's kid 'stole' from Miriel's kid mom?

[aurorapillar]

You know we're told that Varda hallowed the Simarils so that they would burn anything evil who touched them, but honestly I'm very suspicious of it. Cause like, we're told they burned Morgoth, and we're told that they burned Maedhros and Maglor, and yet there's no mention of them burning Thingol. Which makes no sense. You cannot convince me that Thingol would not have been burned by it if it burns evil. Thingol who despite his claims of being king of all of Beleriand, hid away behind his wife's magic and did nothing to help the people outside of Doriath despite claiming dominion over them; who refused to let refugees pass through his realm which caused tons of them to die; who sent his daughters boyfriend on a suicidal quest to steal some stolen property (which he then refused to return to it's rightful owners when the quest miraculously succeeded, despite his wife telling him he should); who treated his daughter like property and locked her up to keep her from her human boyfriend; who refused to join in the nirnaeth arnoediad aside from sending like 2? elves because he was mad about something that 2 of the sons of feanor had done; who was very racist to the dwarves; ect..

Which leads me to believe that either

A) The whole thing about Simarils burning evil was made up propaganda to help show how evil the sons of Feanor were and justify people keeping their father's creations from them

B) The Simarills did burn evil and in fact burned Thingol, but it was hushed up because it would have called into question the claim he and his line insisted they had to the jewels and made him look really bad. And if that was the case, I would say they probably would have burned the Valar as well if they'd gotten their hands on them.

or C) It was less that the Simarills burned evil and more that they burned anyone Varda didn't want to have them.

[anna-dreamer]

(I apologize in advance that this one is rather angry. I am in a dark mood, and it's not hard to see why.) So, about predetermined morality and second chances. It got me thinking about Lay of Leithian the rock opera, in the way it exists in Skazki iteration. I took me a while to warm up to it for many different reasons, and one of those reasons was its opening number. I remember, before i saw the whole show, watching a YouTube video with just that song. I didn't like it because it was Námo's number. I still hold the same feelings over this creative decision, although i do really love Polina's direction and many thigs in LoL are now dear to me.

I really don't think Námo is the right character to present this story to the audience, for this story is not his. The Lord of Doom, the cold and reclusive Vala, the one who says things like Not the first, he doesn't get to say something like Слушайте, люди, песню о Лэйтиан. He is not the one who reaches out and shares, he is not the one who narrates and empathizes, he is not the one who releases from bondage - he is the judge, he is the restrictor, and he is the jailer, he is an antagonist to anyone who challenges the Fate. (Well, to most people.) And here lies my issue. This opening number is supposed to explain to the audience why the narrative they are about to witness is a meaningful, worthwhile story. First of all, the characters of it suffered like no others (more than you people, honestly i am not fond of this implication) because they blazed the trail to a new kind of fate. Second of all, they walked a tough path, they did not know what to expect, a lot of times they struggled against a powerful current of fate (though it rather sounds like it picked them up and carried them). That is why we remember them to this day. And you too should remember these great characters; but you also should remember that their deeds made the Black Crown roll onto the ground; you should remember those sacramental lines we love to repeat, мра�� не вечен and Враг не всесилен. And now pray tell me, Námo, what does any of this have to do with you?! Wasn't it you along with other Valar who let the Enemy out? Wasn't it you who was supposed to protect Arda from him - and failed to do so? Wasn't it you who abandoned in to fight the Enemy in a hopeless battle which was your responsibility in the first place? You don't get to join in with those who actually suffered, you don't get to claim you share their plight. You are the reason they suffered. One could argue that Námo was convinced by Lúthien, that she showed him the error of his ways, he learned a lesson, hence him opening LoL with those words. Except this is not what happened. Lúthien was singled out by Námo in the first place supposedly because "somehow" she did not find peace in Mandos. Námo, of course, says that there has never been such a case before - yet i will never buy that. In those very Halls Míriel Þerindë abides, and her son Fëanor, and her husband Finwë - those three already hold so much unresolved grief i find it really hard to believe they are just chilling, all good, no problem whatsoever. Not to mention all those elves who never wanted to go to Aman in the first place and must be really struggling in that valarin brainwashing machine! Mandos is not a happy place, and yet only Lúthien somehow gets Námo to listen. Why? I honestly feel like he listened because Narrative Bias, because it is just this kind of story, because Love Conquers All and all that jazz. That is bad enough because SO MANY OTHERS deserve a chance, not mercy even but actual justice, yet only Beren and Lúthien get it because of this prebuilt morality. They are worthy because they are worthy. We are not supposed to question it. Nevermind that everyone else gets to be effectively cast as unworthy ones. But there is another layer, and it is not exactly text-based, but my current reality is such that this reading becomes inescapable. By taking it upon himself to explain LoL to us Námo appropriates its narrative in order to absolve himself of any responsibility. He praises Beren and Lúthien and gives lip service to all the things that people he oppresses actually want - safety, freedom to choose their own fate, a brighter future, the Enemy defeated. Yet the truth is he is the reason and the enabler of such a reality where hardly any of it happens. I hate this. The opening number to Lay of Leithian belongs not to a Vala - but to a human narrator. If we must take inspiration in a biased story about Tolkien's favorite lovebirds, then let us at least do it on our own terms.

[maglor-my-beloved]

The Valar really have exactly two problem-solving strategies, don't they?

Ignore it

If you can't ignore it anymore, drown it

Like that really is all they do, isn't it?

[thelandswemadeofpaper]

My greatest problem is the relationship between Eldar/Valar and Edain, because far I understand Arda will be Remade by Men? After Turin beats Morgoth?

I am sorry if I am mistaken, Dagor Dagorath can be confusing

But like...their relationship wasn't very good for the beginning, after Numenor's Fall it got worse

Elves hide in their little perfect island while letting Edain rot in Old Arda, why would Men let Elves be in Arda Remade after they abandoned it? Men took care of it while Manwe 'the 'King of Arda', barely gave it attention.

If Men will be the ones to remake Arda and defeat Morgoth, Arda Remade will belong to Edain.

The Valar will be so puzzled that they won't be welcome

Edit: Its more of a Anti-Valar Headcanon, I know

I think one of my favorite Silmarillion fandom tropes is "Arda Remade is fucked up actually."

Because who gets to decide what a perfect world looks like? Is that even possible? Most of the work I've seen about Arda Remade explores what would happen if the Valar made those choices, and perhaps, chose wrong.

If Miriel never dies, Finwe never remarries, and his other children never exist. If the latter bond takes precedent, and Finwe marries Indis first, what about Feanor? After all, even if Miriel, Finwe, and Indis would be happy with some sort of poly situation (good for them), there's no guarantee that whoever remakes the world would see it that way.

If a perfect world means the elves never leave Valinor, what happens to elves born from unions between exiled Noldor and elves in Middle-Earth? What happens to the half-elves? Is there no need for Earendil, in a world with no Morgoth to fight against? No need for Elrond in a world that shouldn't need healing?

Does anyone even know what's missing? What choices have been made for them? There's just so much tragic potential there.

Anyway, you should go read We Dream of Truth by Drag0nst0rm because it's a beautiful story about the imperfections of Arda Remade.

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

The Doom of the Noldor has as active a role as Húrin’s Curse.

[queerofthedagger]

there is something so interesting to me about how the eagles came to actively help fingon (and maedhros) in the very early days of them being in beleriand, and then 450ish years later they come once more to at least bring fingolfin's body to safety (and there is something, too, how they bring him to gondolin and not back to fingon), and then another 20ish years later fingon dies and gets beaten to dust and no one is coming anymore. turgon only makes it back to gondolin thanks to the men, but the eagles still help protect the city. until they don't. i don't have one great theory or conclusion to this, somehow it's both telling and completely arbitrary at the same time, but it's rotating in the back of my mind at all times like. man

[feanoryen]

Ranking the Valar by how much I hate them.

12: Lorien/Irmo - Idk why, but I kind of vibe with him. His only fault is being Mandos’s brother but he didn’t really do anything to piss me off himself. He seems dreamy & has a nice garden.

11: Orome - He’s cool but he’s still a Vala (who are objectively horrible) at the end of the day. Gets points for not going out of his way to make the Feanorians lives worse though & giving Celegorm a cool but disloyal dog.

12: Aule - Thank you for the Dwarves king! Unfortunately he’s married to Yavanna who I can not stand.

11: Nienna - Her heart seems to be in the right place. I like her.

10: Este - I don’t speak ill of healers on this blog! Even though she failed to heal Miriel I guess, she still made a bigger effort than everyone else.

9 & 8: Vana & Nessa - I just don’t think about them to be honest.

7: Tulkas - His purpose for existing is to beat up Melkor but he’s not even perfect at that. What’s wrong with you dude? Were you asleep when Melkor was making Feanor & Turin’s lives hell?

6: Yavanna - Her entitlement makes me seethe. I guess she did create the two trees but she basically gave away the light for free, she can’t ask for it back. Not the worst though, but I still don’t like her.

5: Vaire - Girl it’s nice of you to let Miriel live with you and all but why the heck were you like “but what about Indis's feelings” when Finwe was talking about how he wanted to give up getting reembodied for Miriel. This ain’t about Indis, why do her feelings matter?

4: Varda - Hallowing the Silmarills was such an a-hole move. The hallowing isn’t even fair, it’s just about who Varda wants to have the Silmarills. Does she think THINGOL is pure hearted? The Silmarill should have burnt him to a crisp.

3: Ulmo - Nothing short of a salty b!tch, thank goodness he’s single because I’d feel bad for anyone who had to put up with him. And why does he like bland ass TUOR so much while hating talented icons like the Feanorians?!

2: Manwe - He’s the 2nd fakest creature in existence after his big brother. Feanor doesn’t want your tears, where were you when your brother was murdering his dad, stealing his work, & previously harassing him for years non stop?

1: Mandos/Namo - F*ck this a-hole. At least Manwe has the excuse of being canonically stupid. He’s just an ass for the sake of it. And what’s his beef with Feanor? Free my king, all his faults are because you decided to shove Indis into his life & allowed Melkor to go free.

The actual #1: Melkor (obviously)

[echo-bleu]

In Elrond v. the Valar, if Elrond is successfull in going against the Valar (which I hope he is), do you have any plans for Elrond then getting to see his sons, his parents and the Feanorians again? I obviously don't know all the things you plan on having Elrond challenge the Valar on, but I think it'd be great if he could get those imprisoned releasted, those doomed to horrid fates saved (cough Earendil) and travel between Aman and Middle Earth made possible so people can visit each other. Or hell, if Elrond manages to change things for the better in Aman, maybe the twins might come join him after all. But really, very excited for the idea of this fic, as I've been feeling very anti Valar lately.

Thank you for your ask! This actually gives me a great opportunity to dig deeper into my feelings on the Valar xD I'm going to put it under a cut because it got long.

The short answer is, I have no idea. I started this fic (I've rambled about it here) as a vent fic where Elrond gets to yell at the Valar, without really thinking about ever posting it. I was writing those towers we built and getting very angry at the Valar, and for some reason in the first months of my presence in the fandom I only saw very pro-Valar (or, at worst, "the Valar made a few mistakes but mean well, it's fine") takes. I'm fine with fics that go with that, but I think it's a point where my atheism butts heads with Tolkien's catholicism in a major way.

I really love fics where my favourite elves re-embody/sail and reunite in Aman in the Fourth Age and find ways to heal from their traumas, so naturally I wanted to write some (and also some angst such as those towers) but I found myself constantly stuck on what to do with the Valar. It's easy to just kind of ignore them when writing about LOTR events or even, to some extent, about First Age Beleriand. They're not there. They exist in a more material way than most gods but they're still remote, except for Morgoth and Sauron.

It's different in Aman. I went through a whole spectrum of questions/opinions such as "Aman is the Valar's domain and thus if the elves want to live there they have to play by their rules", but it just keeps falling apart whenever I think about it a little harder.

The sticking points for me are this: Númenor's Downfall, and "if thralldom it be, then you cannot escape it". The problem with the Valar, as a group, is that they are gods. They are both gods and rulers, and thus their rule is in the simplest sense of the word a tyranny. They are all-powerful. There is no recourse against them. They have no oversight (I'll get to Eru in a moment), no checks and balance, and they experience no consequence for their actions.

They have a prison system that you are put in by dying, so without trial, and are only released from if you are deemed to no longer be dangerous to society by some nebulous standards. There is also no recourse and no appeal, at least none within a recognizable system of law.

They claim all of Arda as their kingdom, but they abandon anyone who doesn't cater to them to whatever fate. They say the Noldor are free to leave Aman but completely shun them when they do, punishing them (the Doom) again without trial, and definitely not trial by peers. (Also even their way of "recompensing" people who do goodTM is dubious *cough* Eärendil *cough*).

And, even more crucially, they can decide to wipe out an entire people on a whim, again with no consequence.

Here we come to Eru, briefly: Eru is much easier to deal with for me because he is in nature remote. He is all-powerful but more in the way the laws of physics are all-powerful, if that makes any sense. He's not good or evil and he doesn't deal in the individual. See: Númenor (I tend to go with the headcanon that Eru didn't directly order the destruction of Númenor, but ultimately it doesn't matter, because it was the Valar who did it). That's also why he's not a useful oversight for the Valar: if the Valar decided to just wipe out all the elves, Eru would probably just make more elves and have them wake up at some other lake. And anyway, Manwë is the only one who can even communicate with Eru, so the Children can't exactly send complaints.

So we have a tyranny. Or at minimum, we have some kind of oppressive/unfair government, at its root (whatever the result is on the surface). How do we change that?

In real life, a fair government is one where the people in power switch regularly, and only the system remains (preferably with separation of powers and fair laws). It's subject to constant change. Even an absolute monarchy, the king dies eventually and, in theory, can also be overthrown. But a world ruled by gods? They are immortal and unchanging. There is no way to overthrow them. They literally have all the power.

This is where I get stuck in Elrond v. the Valar, and to some extent in those towers as well. It can't end in a revolution. The elves cannot do anything to change their situation that isn't the will of the Valar. The only change that can possibly happen, is for them to somehow convince the Valar to see their side, and/or sow enough dissention among the Valar that they no longer agree with each other.

So that's where I'm going, more or less. There is no fully happy ending there. Elrond will have to make his point, pray hope for meaningful change, without ever being able to trust it, because I don't think there's any way he can trust the Valar again after Númenor.

(It is, in the end, very much like real-life. We can only hope that the people who have power over us will hold themselves to the standards that they promised, and they generally don't. Even when there are recourses, they only work so far. Which is probably why the Valar make me so angry – they are an excellent stand-in for all these powers in our lives that betray us again and again.)

I'm trying to spin a lot of it around the concept of self-determination, which is something that I believe the Valar do not understand. The only one of them who ever exercised it was... Melkor. I am not having thoughts about Melkor redemptions. The Valar are made to be exactly what they are, and they don't change, so they don't recognize the Children's right to make mistakes, to learn, and to choose their own path.

I think we can get to a place where the Valar might understand that they need to defer the making of laws and judgment and generally governance to the people themselves. But the changes would take a huge amount of time and more than one fight (far more than I can do in one fic, in any case). So, is there a happy ending for Elrond and his family? I don't know. Release for those in Mandos, for Eärendil (whose fate always breaks my heart)? A mostly peaceful, bittersweet ending? Maybe.

I also cannot guarantee that it doesn't include a long stay in Mandos for Elrond.

[feanoryen]

I love most of these.

Good dad Earendil my beloved. I agree about Olwe but also recognize that he was entitled to his boats and did not deserve to have his people killed for not giving them up, still not great of him though. Agree about Thingol. I like your take on Elrond.

Mixed on the Falmari. If Olwe's own Grandchildren can waltz off to ME, I don't see why others can not. I guess I can see some Teleri going with Earwen's children, but they end up settling in Doriath or Nargothrond and don't get along too well with any of the *kinslaying* Noldor.

No for Thranduil. It's said all the Minyar went to Aman and became the Vanyar. If a Vanya intermarried with a Teler before the great journey and had a child with Vanya blood who stayed behind, then maybe, but there's no possible way his mother is a full blooded Vanya. I prefer him without any Vanya blood though.

Hard yes for #8. They're absolutely hypocrites, even Finarfin which is disappointing considering he seemed to be ok with going to ME before the Valar proclaimed the doom. WTF Arafinwe!? Anaire is more loyal to your wife than you are!

Agreed about the Valar, they didn't need the Silmarills & just seem to be nasty to Feanor for the fun of it. Mixed feelings on Eol & Aredhel, I explained my feeling here.

I wanna try a controversial opinion poll! :D

Good Dad Eärendil

Eärendil left to find Aman FOR his sons. He knew if he didn't, Morgoth would definitely kill them all. At least if he tried, there was a chance his boys would live.

Bad Olwë

As explained here, by denying the Noldor passage to Beleriand, Olwë basically signed the death warrants of his kin in Middle Earth. He KNEW Elmo at least still lived there, even if he though Elwë had been captured of killed.

Thingollo is No Longer King of Beleriand

By raising the Girdle, Thingollo basically admitted he could no longer protect his vassals in their own lands. They could come to Doriath, of course, but he could not go to them. If they chose not to go to Doriath, then that would render the liege/vassal contract void. There's more about it here.

Elrond has a Temper

I kind of explain my thoughts here, but the long and short of it is that "kind as summer" can be translated in different ways, and where I live, summers can be brutal. So I've always imagined Elrond as someone slow to anger, but he can hold a grudge.

The Nargothrond Debacle

I address this here, but essentially, Finrod's original plan was pretty stupid. It sounds like he wanted to directly attack Morgoth - likely Tol Sirion first, and then Angband - and he was trying to hype his people up for that. This would've been suicidal for the entire city. The fact that Finrod, who'd almost died in the Bragollach, didn't realize that, shows he's either dumb or paralyzed from some sort of pre-traumatic stress disorder. Or he's just very optimistic. Either way, bad idea, and he should've been called out for it.

Noldor-Aligned Falmari

As stated here, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that all of the Falmari would agree on something like this, where they'd essentially be damning their sundered kin to death and torture under Morgoth. My family can barely agree on dinner, and there are far fewer of us, and the stakes are never that high.

Thranduil's Mother

She's a Vanya imo. I do subscribe to the "only Vanyar have yellow hair" way of thinking, and I do like "yellow haired Thranduil", and I like "a Vanya who actually wanted to stay in Endórë".

Hypocritical Arafinwions and Nolofinwions

I have a whole rant about how it's hypocritical of the Arafinwions and Nolofinwions to condemn how the Fëanárions obtained passage across the Sea, and then complain about being left behind. If it were up to the Ara- and Nolofinwions, they would've all had to take the Helcaraxë.

The Valar Didn't Need the Silmarils

The Trees were never supposed to a permanent solution to the destruction of the Lamps. The Sun and Moon needed to come into existence. Otherwise, Men could not survive.

Eöl and Areðel

I have a whole rant about it here. It's not a particularly complicated thing.

[thelandswemadeofpaper]

*Valar and other elves condemning the Feanorians for committing genocide of innocents*

Numenor @ Valar:

Petty Dwarves @ Finrod and Thingol

Hi, Pot, I'm Kettle. Go fuck yourself.

[urwendii]

Pro tip: I assure you, you do not need to tag the characters' names in your anti post. Some of us have good tastes.