#obligatory fuck the valar tag

[anna-dreamer]

So, this is something i have wanted to talk about for a while now. Not too super serious, but i do genuinely enjoy pondering over Silmarillion as one big metaphor for parent-child relationships. Just a heads-up, i don't consider Fëanor a good father, though i am sure he consciously tried to be one. Also, psychological realities do not always reflects things objectively.

Fëanorians for sure did start several fires, real and metaphorical, but you know what? They didn't start THE fire! It very much was always burning, regardless if the flat world was capable of turning. Ever since Eru failed to adequately parent the Ainur it has been a non-stop familial trauma that somehow transcends worlds and species! Melkor never got any idea of boundaries, never learned to bear frustration, never came to terms with the fact that his exceptional powers will not win his father's acceptance - so of course his destructive behaviour lead to a local apocalypse! The Valar never learned empathy, they came into Arda with a conviction that loving a parent meant being ever afraid, unquestioning, and obedient - so of course when they ended up with elves as their charges and foster children they employed the same formula, they did not know any better! They utterly failed to understand Míriel and wronged her greatly, thus becoming at least partially responsible for Fëanor's fear of inadequacy and of abandonment, suspiciousness, and resentment. Feeling unsafe in Valinor and being jealous of his half-siblings, of course Fëanor ensnared his sons into a web of enmeshment and codependency. He might have been well-meaning, striving to protect them and himself, but all he did was infuse his children with a solemn conviction that the world is unsafe, only Father sees it and knows what's best, everyone else is resentful of him because of this, so supporting Father utterly and without question is existential. So of course the Fëanorians swore their father's Oath! Of couse they swore it again after his death! That was the only thing left of Father, the last connection to him, the last chance to win his approval which is impossible because he is gone. In fact he was already gone even before his body burned away. But to admit this loss is impossibly scary. He will never come, he will never hold them and comfort them and embrace them the way they would like him to, because he has already abandoned them for the silmarils, and ego, and revenge, and grief. This is what Darkness Everlasting is - the existential dread of admitting that Father will never love them again.

That being said, i can only marvel at Celebrimbor, Elrond, and Elros, as they consciously tried to overcome Finwëan trauma and the latter two seem to have succeeded. (I don't think Celebrimbor "failed", after all Sauron's deception was out of his control, and this is Sauron we are talking about.)

Eru has started little fires everywhere. Much they have consumed.

[nerdanelschildren]

I want to talk about the Valar.

namely, I want to talk about them as characters in the story, not as gods. they are powerful like gods, sure, but they are also present in the story. they live within Arda, their choices have direct consequences on the narrative. and those consequences are something the Valar never seem prepared to face.

see, when I feel like judging the Valar, I judge them as leaders. I judge them as I would judge someone in my community making these kinds of big far-reaching decisions. because that's the place in the story that I think the Valar have.

and here's the thing. I want to tell a personal story (names and places changed of course). I'm reminded of it every time I think of the Valar's actions and the consequences thereof, and it colors the way I judge them.

this might get long, so I'll put it under a cut.

a few years ago, I was in charge of an organization. nowhere near the same scale as what the Silmarillion deals with of course, just a small local org designed for community activity. but I was its leader, and as such, I was responsible for keeping things moving forward reliably and keeping the people I worked with safe and satisfied.

at one point, a guy joined the group who was very difficult to work with. this guy enjoyed wrecking other people's endeavors, derailing productive conversations, etc. at first I was able to shut him down during meetings, but he got more belligerent as time went on. I asked my friends for advice, but they did not agree on what should be done about him, so... I didn't do anything about him. at first.

then, since he hadn't been stopped yet, this guy stepped up his game. he started taking his activities outside of just the meetings, private messaging people to harass them. I began to hear news that he was also telling lies about people close to me, trying to foment a distrust in leadership among the newer members of the group, essentially trying to convert them to his side instead. if someone refused to be swayed by him, he would relentlessly abuse them, project his own problems onto them, "no THEY are the real liar!" that kind of thing.

so now he was causing massive problems for the entire group. now the people I worked with were no longer safe or satisfied, which meant that if I had let him continue, I would have been failing in my job as a leader. in short, I had a duty to step in then, and I did.

I expelled the guy in question from my group.

now, expelling him did not solve all of the problems immediately, but it solved the main ones, and it allowed us the time and space to start repairing things. when he left, some people went with him. others stayed behind and brought their grievances to me, and I listened, and I was able to reassure them that his accusations were false.

this experience is why I have no patience or sympathy for Melkor, but it's also why I cannot agree with Manwë. he knew Melkor was the problem. he should have dealt with Melkor from the beginning. I understand he had pity for his brother and wanted to believe he could change, but then after that, the moment Melkor started causing problems again, it was Manwë's duty to intervene and he didn't. he let the situation get way too out of hand. in fact, he refused to publicly recognize the real problem at all, and instead decided to blame the Noldor for it, and then he reacted badly when that came back to bite him. If I had refused to acknowledge the guy in my group as the problem, and had instead decided to blame his victims, I would have 100% deserved whatever rebellion I got.

in short, I think Manwë's own sympathy for Melkor got in the way of his leadership duty, and he shouldn't have been at all surprised when the Noldor decided he wasn’t trustworthy anymore.

[nerdanelschildren]

I feel like he should have also foreseen Fëanor going “oh, I’m exiled anyway huh, well what are the rest of you going to do? Let me, YOUR KING, go into exile ALONE?????”

Like, that seems like a pretty expectable answer there

But then again Manwë has never understood the Noldor

also it’s sort of funny how Manwë sends a messenger to be like “hey do NOT go into exile that will be BAD and end BADLY. oh except fëanor you’re exiled anyway bc of the oath. but yeah it’ll still end badly” like what did you expect him to do. obviously not mass murder, which fair, I also wouldn’t expect that per se, but “something rash bc he’s pretty short on options” should’ve been.. foreseeable? I know it’s said Manwë cannot understand evil but it seems he also cannot understand like. a cornered animal

[valacirya]

i saw your comparison of the jedi and the valar and i just wanna say you are 100% right on that one. ive been screaming that shit to the void because there are those loud fuckers who kept insisting that the valars are tyrants and i was like where? *Adjusts my big glassses* fucking hell where? i mean you do you but like to say the valars are tyrannical or stupid is fucking funny, because they're more like confused and had misunderstood the eldar which makes sense becuase they're different, they're gods or whatever. if anyone should be called a tyrant it should only be melkor and sauron, yet they get leeway because they're more popular. ive seen more takes and post give justice to melkor and sauron yet that energy was never there for manwe because apparently he was more tyrannical than melkor? fucking melkor? sorry i probably shouldnt be this pissed but i just saw something that had me reeling like y'all are you serious.

We need a Valar defense tag like the Star Wars fandom has a Jedi defense one! Look, everyone's entitled to have and share their own opinions but I'm as frustrated as you are because the anti-Valar stuff is pretty much all I ever see. And a lot of it treats the text as if it portrays the Valar as perfect when that is very much not the case. They make big mistakes and the text acknowledges that; Eru himself criticizes the Valar. But I don't know how you can read the Silmarillion and HoME and conclude that the Valar were malicious tyrants. Besides, isn't it more interesting to think about the consequences and implications of well-meaning and loving but incredibly overpowered demigods living among mortals (yes, elves are mortal compared to the Ainur)? Dismissing them as "oppressors" is just so boring. And I don't like to judge but I can't help it, because of some of the meta/fics I've read had Manwe and Namo sounding like Judge Frollo. Also, obligatory fic rec: go read Better a Holy Discord by clothonono on Ao3 if you haven't already. It is brilliant.

[nerdanelschildren]

Feel like I’m shouting into a void, but seriously, the Valar really went and took a bunch of Elves out of their native habitat and moved them to this “protected” island, and then proceeded to just fling the door open and let the enemy of those Elves waltz right on in, despite the fact that his aggression was the reason they were moving the Elves there in the first place.

No wonder some of those Elves are fucking upset when their king was murdered, you broke your promise, MANWË

[anna-dreamer]

(I apologize in advance that this one is rather angry. I am in a dark mood, and it's not hard to see why.) So, about predetermined morality and second chances. It got me thinking about Lay of Leithian the rock opera, in the way it exists in Skazki iteration. I took me a while to warm up to it for many different reasons, and one of those reasons was its opening number. I remember, before i saw the whole show, watching a YouTube video with just that song. I didn't like it because it was Námo's number. I still hold the same feelings over this creative decision, although i do really love Polina's direction and many thigs in LoL are now dear to me.

I really don't think Námo is the right character to present this story to the audience, for this story is not his. The Lord of Doom, the cold and reclusive Vala, the one who says things like Not the first, he doesn't get to say something like Слушайте, люди, песню о Лэйтиан. He is not the one who reaches out and shares, he is not the one who narrates and empathizes, he is not the one who releases from bondage - he is the judge, he is the restrictor, and he is the jailer, he is an antagonist to anyone who challenges the Fate. (Well, to most people.) And here lies my issue. This opening number is supposed to explain to the audience why the narrative they are about to witness is a meaningful, worthwhile story. First of all, the characters of it suffered like no others (more than you people, honestly i am not fond of this implication) because they blazed the trail to a new kind of fate. Second of all, they walked a tough path, they did not know what to expect, a lot of times they struggled against a powerful current of fate (though it rather sounds like it picked them up and carried them). That is why we remember them to this day. And you too should remember these great characters; but you also should remember that their deeds made the Black Crown roll onto the ground; you should remember those sacramental lines we love to repeat, мрак не вечен and Враг не всесилен. And now pray tell me, Námo, what does any of this have to do with you?! Wasn't it you along with other Valar who let the Enemy out? Wasn't it you who was supposed to protect Arda from him - and failed to do so? Wasn't it you who abandoned in to fight the Enemy in a hopeless battle which was your responsibility in the first place? You don't get to join in with those who actually suffered, you don't get to claim you share their plight. You are the reason they suffered. One could argue that Námo was convinced by Lúthien, that she showed him the error of his ways, he learned a lesson, hence him opening LoL with those words. Except this is not what happened. Lúthien was singled out by Námo in the first place supposedly because "somehow" she did not find peace in Mandos. Námo, of course, says that there has never been such a case before - yet i will never buy that. In those very Halls Míriel Þerindë abides, and her son Fëanor, and her husband Finwë - those three already hold so much unresolved grief i find it really hard to believe they are just chilling, all good, no problem whatsoever. Not to mention all those elves who never wanted to go to Aman in the first place and must be really struggling in that valarin brainwashing machine! Mandos is not a happy place, and yet only Lúthien somehow gets Námo to listen. Why? I honestly feel like he listened because Narrative Bias, because it is just this kind of story, because Love Conquers All and all that jazz. That is bad enough because SO MANY OTHERS deserve a chance, not mercy even but actual justice, yet only Beren and Lúthien get it because of this prebuilt morality. They are worthy because they are worthy. We are not supposed to question it. Nevermind that everyone else gets to be effectively cast as unworthy ones. But there is another layer, and it is not exactly text-based, but my current reality is such that this reading becomes inescapable. By taking it upon himself to explain LoL to us Námo appropriates its narrative in order to absolve himself of any responsibility. He praises Beren and Lúthien and gives lip service to all the things that people he oppresses actually want - safety, freedom to choose their own fate, a brighter future, the Enemy defeated. Yet the truth is he is the reason and the enabler of such a reality where hardly any of it happens. I hate this. The opening number to Lay of Leithian belongs not to a Vala - but to a human narrator. If we must take inspiration in a biased story about Tolkien's favorite lovebirds, then let us at least do it on our own terms.

[anna-dreamer]

the first thing we learn about este is that she can take away all pain and weariness. and the second thing we learn about este is that this is not true

[anna-dreamer]

I am probably in the minority here, but I don't see anything particularly glorious about the origin of Ëarendil the star. It's not a story worthy of an epic poem like the one Bilbo composed. It is a very sad story of a young lad who just wanted to sail the seas and a young girl who was put into an impossible situation of "The murderers of your family are at your doorstep demanding the very thing you believe helps your city survive in a nearly apocalyptic world, or else they will start killing everyone again. What do you do?" These two had children they'd left abandoned in Middle-Earth, it was their home they had left behind - and to rid them both of it was honestly such a horrible move! Elwing was parted with her sons forever, and it feels like she was also isolated from everybody since she got that odd tower in a remote location, and it sounds like her only companions were birds! She could have at least settled in Alqualondë where she had kin! And Ëarendil, oh poor Ëarendil. He had not seen his sons even longer, and he was almost completely removed from this world altogether! Ëarendil, a simple guy who would have preferred a single mortal life, was given a task that he can never complete and that will never end. He is not even a maia who, i don't know, might be more comfortable with a role of a celestial body? How is this endless voyage of isolation and solitude a glorious and hopeful thing? It's a nightmare! And all because of several otherworldly beings with superiority complex who could not bare that some puny undeserving incarnates dared to step onto their forbidden shores. Nevermind that Elwing and Ëarendil were refugies who had come begging for help. Nevermind that the situation itself was their own doing, since they had let Melkor out and ever since he went on a rampage were doing absolutely nothing! The Valar did not deserve any reverence. They did not deserve those pleas from a lonely frightened kid, as if he were a guilty child and them strict but benevolent parents. They did not bestow any great gift onto him - they executed their power because they felt threatened and needed to affirm it even after the most minor transgression.

Fuck the Valar. Bring the Dagor Dagorath as soon as possible. Bring Ëarendil down from the sky. Let him come home.

[anna-dreamer]

Why the heck did you need more kids so badly, Finwë? Why couldn't you just get over it? You know, for the sake of your wife's wellbeing! Was it Middle Earth trauma, where having an heir and a spare was essential because you never knew who was next to fall to the Shadow? Did you not trust the Valar enough to protect your family? I mean, fair, but you sacrificed Míriel in the process, meaning she was disposable while you and your children were not!! How fitting that Tar-Míriel was the one Ar-Pharazôn married against her will to seize the throne of Númenor and to attack the Valar. And she had to die for his actions! Way to go for an anti-Eldar king to attempt to surpass Finwë in this struggle against the will of the Valar! Damn you patriarchal people for opposing the Valar with all the wrong means!

[nerdanelschildren]

Whenever I see people talking about the Uprising of the Noldor, it seems like the predominant opinion (and the “canon” opinion, so to speak) is that they fucked up. Kinslaying aside, people seem to think that it was a mistake to rebel against the Valar at all, like the Noldor’s path was flawed from the moment they decided not to listen to Manwë.

I’m here to argue the opposite point.

It was the Valar who were wrong.

If you’ve ever been a leader in any capacity (as I have), you should know that it’s your responsibility to make sure the people you are leading are safe. You need to give them a reason to continue following you, and you need to continuously build up trust and maintain that trust between you and your people.

The first mistake the Valar made was believing Melkor had reformed and letting him roam free among the Elves in Valinor. That was a massive oversight on their part, but they still could have saved themselves even after making that big of a mistake. They could have - and should have - acted immediately to recapture Melkor the moment there was dissidence among the Elves. But instead, they blamed Feanor alone and didn’t think to ask who had been whispering in his ear.

The fact that they didn’t recapture Melkor of course allowed the problem to get worse. That is what happens if there’s an issue that you choose to ignore instead of solve, after all. So Melkor continued to sow discord under their watch.

And then, ultimately, of course, he allied with Ungoliant, killed Finwe, stole the Silmarils, and drained the light of the Trees.

At this point, the Noldor are (understandably) ready to riot. Their king - the one who led them to this land in the first place, who believed it was a sanctuary! - has just been murdered. In the Undying Lands. By one of the Valar. This is unprecedented and they are raging. And the Valar’s response at this point is to say they can’t catch Melkor because he’s already gone, and to sit at the foot of the darkened Trees and mourn. That’s it.

They don’t address the cause of the Noldor’s grief or rage, they don’t even seem to realize that they have a part to play in that. Which, once again, as a leader, if you do not respond appropriately and immediately to a crisis you caused, then the escalation of that crisis is on your hands.

The Noldor go back to Tirion with absolutely zero of their needs met, all of their rage still boiling inside them, and completely justified in believing that the Valar are not going to help them. The Valar have literally proven that themselves! In which case, the only options left to the Noldor are to sit and do nothing (like the Valar are doing, which doesn’t work) or solve their problem themselves. 

“Why, O people of the Noldor, should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their Enemy?”

The Uprising is inevitable at this point. 

[nerdanelschildren]

@shrikeseams you’re right and you should say it

I think one of my biggest issues with Valinor is that it assumes everyone is going to want the same kind of afterlife

like, sure some people will be attracted to this idea of an eternal resting place, an island paradise where it's always safe and calm and there's nothing threatening you ever

personally... that kind of sounds like it would drive me insane after a few weeks at most. I need conflict, or I don't know what I'm doing with myself. I need something to challenge me, or I feel very bored, and if it's the afterlife I do not want to feel bored

[nerdanelschildren]

you know what?? that is an *excellent* point. I had not considered that but that is very true now that I think about it

also it’s sort of funny how Manwë sends a messenger to be like “hey do NOT go into exile that will be BAD and end BADLY. oh except fëanor you’re exiled anyway bc of the oath. but yeah it’ll still end badly” like what did you expect him to do. obviously not mass murder, which fair, I also wouldn’t expect that per se, but “something rash bc he’s pretty short on options” should’ve been.. foreseeable? I know it’s said Manwë cannot understand evil but it seems he also cannot understand like. a cornered animal