#tolkien meta

[alsethwisson]

Awesome stuff, really! Just wanted to add a little, hope you forgive my impertinence.

The generational trauma of Avari/Kalaquendi divide and exploration thereof. We know that Imin, Tata and Enel and their spouses (or rather, the figures that in later ages became known as such - it's pretty explicit those are not real names) were against moving to Valinor. In fact, most of the older generation elfs were.

And the divide was far from, well, peaceful - if such a dry source as Nature of ME says there were heated discussions, they were really HEATED. We see later that Avari detest Kalaquendi and are met with distrust and condescension in turn.

All of this is material enough for any kind of serious artistic exploration, but we also have the Great March itself! Crossing untold distance, meeting stuff they've never seen. Losing people, it's canon there were many who didn't survive The March.

Mandos. I mean, death and rebirth are such fascinating themes! And they have people who've experienced it!

The Teleri have half of their nation stuck on the other side. Maybe they learn of Elwe's real fate, and are happy for him, but maybe not. Either way it's a great source of inspiration, I think?

Ok so I’m rotating ideas about elves and mythology and decided to drop some ramblings in your ask box because of all the wonderful theatre-related thoughts you’ve been sharing!! The thing is that the silm is a mythology right. Like it’s written in that style, and the heroes of LoTR and the later Ages in general are always explicitly looking back to the stories of the First Age (see: Aragorn wanting to cosplay Beren and Lúthien with Arwen). But what were the myths, the cultural stories, of the Elves of the First Age? In Tirion what were the stories that Maglor might write a play retelling or subverting, that Elemmírë might make a new song about, that Míriel might have woven into a tapestry? All cultures have ancient myths – but these characters are a) living at the very dawn of the world, and b) are all going to become mythological figures themselves! It makes me a bit insane. My thoughts are that they told a lot of stories about the war the Valar made on Melkor, and also about Cuivienen and the awakening of the elves, but honestly I don’t KNOW. What do you think? (No pressure to answer this is very random I realise) ❤️❤️

NO I love these thoughts!!! My thoughts generally go along the same vein as yours in terms of the general themes of elven myths. Here are some possibilities I imagine:

Whichever continent the elves in question are not seeing is often the center of the stories. The Sindar and Avari in middle-earth myth-make a lot about the lands in the west; the Eldar in Valinor myth-make about middle-earth. Since we're talking about Elemmírë, Míriel, and Maglor I'll stick to the latter.

I imagine there's aways the pervasive idea of secret Ainur no one has discovered yet. No matter how many times the Valar go "no we promise we're all here in Valinor, there's no other Valar left" there's 100% an elf somewhere going "have you heard about the Vala of bogs? yeah they live in middle earth and they're in charge of all the bogs there and if you aren't careful you'll be stuck serving in their bog court"

Not to mention elves who know Aulë and have heard that his people sleep under the earth, waiting for their time to awake. I'm sure for some elves tell it as simply that, but over time another pervasive myth develops -- stories of great dwarven kingdoms under the earth, kingdoms they're barred from seeing, stories of seven great dwarven kings, each much like Aule in face, each possessing a specific sort of magic.

Imin, Tata, Enel, etc! Not only do we canonically get them as a counting story, I imagine their fates are also something that ends up being talked about? They do not seem like they ever ended up in Valinor -- what happened to them? I feel like elven stories can tend to go along the lines of "and then he turned into a tree" or "he still dwells by the sea where he was born" or "he fell into the cracks of the mountains during the war and became one with the earth."

Myth as a way to explore cultural taboos! Elves coming to Valinor, a land with no pain or crime, with the shadows of war and suffering behind them -- I imagine they must explore taboo and pain through storytelling. What happens to an elf that leaves his wife for another? What happens to an elf who poisons her sister? I imagine there's some gruesome/creepy stories that come out there, but are told with a naïveté to the actual truth of what violence looks like. Something along the lines of "and then the servants of Melkor hacked the elven king into bits, so his wife had to go looking for each piece of him in every corner of the world and sew them back together"

The sea!! Must I say more. The elves emerged from the sea, and they long for it -- yet they cannot go too far into the waves without drowning, and they do not know what lurks under the waves. I imagine myths centering around sea-creatures, around the souls of the drowned, around elves (mer-elves?) who never left the sea and make their kingdoms underneath the waters, etc.

Just some ideas!! If anyone else wants to contribute headcanons for early elf myths to his post, please do!

[alsethwisson]

I have THOUGHTS about how Tolkien, despite being very conservative, made deliberate choices to correct his earlier works into less sexist and racist direction...and how it all is thrown out of the window by ostensibly progressive Tumblr fandom.

It's mostly the female characters, of course. Haleth is the worst victim, but oh my what they do to poor Nerdanel.

Again, they take a female character deliberately written as her own person independent of her spouse - a character based at least in part on Christopher's wife Tolkien was good friends with... and turn her into an accessory for a male character.

Honestly when have you last seen a fic where she is allowed to keep her own views and not run to Feanor at first call?

[growingingreenwood]

Here are my thoughts on Elves re-growing their teeth that nobody asked for:

Since Elves can live for literally ever if they're careful enough, I think it's super unlikely that one single set of teeth would be able to make it through all of the ages without even getting knocked out, rotting, or getting eroded overtime until they are flat to the gum. Unless of course Eru made them with invincible teeth (more invisible than any other part of the elves.) 

Personally, I think that it's most likely and the most PRACTICAL that Elves do the same thing as Crocodiles do where their teeth hollow out as they age so that a new tooth can grow into the space and eventually force the old tooth to fall out. Revealing a mostly fully grown tooth underneath. 

I think the FUNNIEST would be if it was like rodents and one single set of teeth slowly grows for eternity, so that if they don’t eat enough or wear them down their teeth get significantly longer than is ‘normal.’ Imagine the weird fashion trends the elves could come up with by purposefully growing out specific teeth.  

However, I think it would be the SCARIEST if it was the same as Sharks where they grow new teeth behind the old ones, and slowly force the older one’s forward until they become loose enough to fall out of their mouths. Could you imagine if elves had 2 - 3 sets of teeth at any given time in their mouths. Fucking terrifying.

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

I do think that any fan who believes Tolkien intended readers to view characters as deserving of death, instead of simply meeting death as a consequence of their actions (or that one state-sanctioned execution), is fundamentally missing the ideology conveyed in ‘Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.’

[alsethwisson]

Great points here!

I'd add that Tolkien loves showing personal through ecological.

Numenorians destroy Eriador forests by careless logging, while carefully planting trees in their homeland: just as they enrich said homeland by brutally subjugating Middle-Earth peoples.

Orthanc was a city of gardens. We see it turned into polluted wasteland by Saruman and then gardens regrown by the Ents.

Ravaged Ithilien forests are counterbalanced by the heart-rending moment of a broken statue "crowned" with spring blossom.

He pays as much heed to natural world as he does to his human characters, and it's interesting.

I want to make a longer post about this but to me, just as interesting as the ecological destruction of The Silmarillion is the renewal and growth.

Dorthonion is devastated by fires, its forests overgrown and dark. The grasses of Ard Galen and Lothlann are burnt, dust choking the skies, heat scorching a mild climate, birds and other animals fleeing which in turn effects other ecosystems. Then there is the destruction of the region of Nargothrond by Glaurung; entire rivers poisoned, livestock killed, forests trampled.

Glaurung as a singular monster can inflict the damage of an entire war itself*

But there is also survival and restoration. Green breaks out across Tol Sirion again. Even in the devastating aftermath of the Nírnaeth, grass grows over rusted swords and broken bodies.

Mentally drawing a connection between the restoring of Tol Sirion to green and alive after the death of Finrod and the grass that grows only after the Haudh en Nírnaeth amid the desecration of Ard Galen; not only does this cover the bodies of the warriors but besides it lies Rían, a survivor of the Bragollach which brought the destruction that turned Ard Galen into some place desolate

*the parallels between the interpersonal damage he inflicts and the ecological damage is a really interesting one that I will make yet another post on

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

I feel like legolas is the kind of elf that, while he absolutely can take the reins of a situation and lead people, is also absolutely chill with being the second in command. Unless it’s needed or the one in charge is gonna do smth stupid, he’s fine letting other people deligate tasks and make decisions and such.

Legolas walks the fine line between being more of a solo act and being a team player

And you can see this pretty clearly in lotr too, like he lets Gandalf and Aragorn take the lead for the most part bc he knows this isn’t his area of expertise, but we also see his initiative and confidence when he volunteers himself for the quest instead of letting someone else take part (like glorfindel).

It’s also really important to me that legolas is someone who follows orders because he chooses to follow orders. He doesn’t follow orders bc he has to or bc it’s what he’s supposed to do, he lets other people tell him what to do only when he trusts them/trusts their decisions/agrees with them.

[edennill]

Obsessed by the implications that by the time kidnap fam is happening, Maglor is dealing with so much responsibility he never asked for. Basically becoming the person on whom the wellbeing of all his remaining family and soldiers depends on.

Like, Maedhros is technically in charge, politically, but he's also depressed and suicidal, perhaps actively so at times. Even if he's capable of managing the remaining Fëanorian forces, he's very much not capable of managing himself, or the twins. Or Maglor. Maglor is not used to this.

And at the same time, I think this is probably him taking small steps towards becoming the kind of person that is capable of throwing away the Silmaril and living on, despite the oath, despite his father's dying wish. The problem with growing up among Fëanorians is that you never learn how to decide without multiple very strong and overbearing wills influencing you, but this here is when Maglor begins to learn.

He will fall back on Maedhros at the crucial juncture once more and give in to his will regarding the Silmarils, but he will not follow him into death next. And then he will be alone, but he will tear off a scrap of linen, wrap the hand holding the Jewel in it and make a step towards the sea, and the step shall be his own.

[glorf1ndel]

I am reading The Fall of Gondolin, and in the prologue, Christopher Tolkien writes that the Noldor were "most beloved... by Aulë (the Smith) and Mandos the Wise." Which raises the question: what does Mandos, Doomsman of the Valar, really think of Fëanor and his people, the subject of his Doom? I have seen some fandom interpretations in which Mandos can't stand Fëanor, and it is entertaining to think of long-suffering Mandos' patience being tested by this one fiery Elf. I have seen other interpretations in which Mandos is quite dispassionate, which is also interesting. Yet I think the truth about Mandos and the Noldor is in what Christopher Tolkien understood from the writings of his father: he loves them. Mandos, known for being the most grim of the Valar, is singled out by Tolkien (alongside Aulë) as caring about Fëanor and his people. Why? Perhaps Mandos cherishes the Noldor for their wisdom, before Fëanor leads them in the Oath. Perhaps he is simply fascinated by these Elves, who are so different from him. But maybe the answer is more complex, because Mandos knows nearly all things that will be. What if Mandos sees the future of the Noldor, in Vairë's tapestries or in his own mind? What if he rages against that future, all the while knowing that it will not change, because that is the Vision of Ilúvatar? Mandos is well-acquainted with destiny, although he cannot see all ends. Still, the Noldor are most beloved by him, in all their good and evil and moral shades of gray. What if Mandos knows what Fëanor and his people will do, and chooses to love them anyway?

[alsethwisson]

I think this stems from the fact that PJ movies are in a way more classist than Tolkien books. He sees common people only as a fodder for Very Sad Scenes, giving them no voice and no agency.

It's not an accident that movies excise all the LotR commoner characters: from farmer Maggot to Ioreth and my blorbo Beregond, leaving only the hobbits (who are turned into very obvious viewer-insert characters).

PJ's Aragorn, conversely, cannot consider his kingship dependent on the opinion of those common people. I'm not really sure if PJ thinks they even have a personal opinion or if they have that this opinion matters.

But since PJ basically made Aragorn into his main character, and main character needs conflict, he's forced into tried and tired reluctant whatever role.

Personally I find the "I need to prove my people I'm worthy of leading them" way more interesting and, dare I say, progressive conflict.

But then, I adore book Aragorn and don't find him idealised at all, I'm biased.

I do understand the argument that Aragorn's original characterization is too idealized into perfection for film, even if I personally disagree.

(I don't think he is as perfect as all that in the book, and even if he were, I also don't think idealized characters are antithetical to film as a medium. Antithetical to the ethos of these films, sure, and to norms of modern storytelling in any medium, but not to film itself.)

I also think it's rather strange that the argument often seems to be that Aragorn's reluctant king schtick is needed to make him a worse person than the supposedly perfect Aragorn of the book, but simultaneously that his reluctance also makes him a better person than book Aragorn, who is actively seeking power.

I mean ... I'm biased, absolutely. There's a lot I don't care for in the LOTR movies in general. More significantly, I do not like the trope of a leader's reluctance making them all the more qualified for the role, which the movies themselves may or may not be saying, but which defenders of them sometimes do. I know it's a popular concept/formulation, but I disagree strongly. I have a lot more respect for reasonably principled ambition in political leaders that leads them to make preparations for the future and work towards goals than ... idk, reluctant entitlement.

So I personally prefer an Aragorn who has a goal and is actively working towards it against steep obstacles and has to prove himself to the people he wants to rule rather than futilely resisting his right to the kingship by birth. And I don't think an "Aragorn has to prove his worth" kingship arc is particularly non-cinematic in itself; if anything, I think leaning into it even more than the book would be particularly interesting on film and in some ways easier on modern sensibilities.

This is personal preference, etc etc, but yeah—it's like Aragorn had to be made worse, but also better, through the same mechanism, but it's in a way I can't buy into and don't like as a trope. And I think there's this idea (like with the issues around Faramir, actually) that because this is the way they addressed the difficulties perceived around book Aragorn, it's the only way they could be addressed. And I just don't think so. There are plenty of options that are way less birthright-obsessed.

[serene-faerie]

I wasn’t going to say anything originally, but I’m still really annoyed with that one reblog on my bingo card post.

So let me make this very clear:

MELIAN IS NOT A SELFISH NARCISSIST FOR ABANDONING DORIATH

I can’t believe this needs to be said, but apparently it must. Not only is it such a bad faith argument, but it’s completely wrong.

Melian was going through a tremendous amount of grief that was completely alien to her as a Maia. First, Lúthien became mortal and left Doriath to live a mortal life, and Melian has to deal with the fact that one day, she’s going to outlive her own daughter. Then she gets a chance to be a mother again when she and Thingol adopt Túrin, but despite her best attempt to raise him well, he runs away and ends up dying by his own sword. Which means she’s lost another child of her own.

She’s going through the kind of grief that no parent deserves to endure. Túrin may not be her biological son, but his death would’ve really hurt her, without a doubt.

Then, Thingol is suddenly murdered by the dwarves after a fight over the Nauglamir. Her beloved husband, the one she gave up Aman for, is dead, and by this point, Lúthien and Beren are both getting old and they’re also going to die in a couple of years. Melian is realizing that she’s going to basically outlive her entire family.

Can you imagine how that must feel for a Maia like Melian? She must’ve been going through so much pain and grief and heartache. I bet that this is when her Girdle around Doriath begins to fail— the Girdle doesn’t fall yet, but the sheer depth of Melian’s grief is enough to start weakening it.

Being in Beleriand would’ve been completely unbearable for her now. It actively starts to hurt her very spirit, and her powers weaken. I think she realized that if she stayed any longer, her powers would fail her, and she would probably fade away.

Melian didn’t abandon Beleriand because she was selfish. She left Beleriand because she realized that she could no longer live there without the one thing that made her powers flourish— her family.

I’m begging you, have some compassion for female characters and read through the book again PLEASE!

[echo-bleu]

Alright, I've seen a lot of different descriptions and depictions in art, but I don't think this is actually settled in canon, so help me with something:

No "I want to see the results" you cowards, just make up your opinion on the spot if you don't have one.

I used round-shaped fruits but we also don't actually know the shape of the Silmarils, so assume for each answer that we're talking about whatever the largest diameter is in your shape of choice.

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

#YEA!!!!#i think this is why i really dislike the ‘she abandoned her people’ angle#i think that she tied herself and her power to the land via thingol and later luthien#and after luthien dies the first time and chose a mortal life it sorta severed that anchor line#and the same adter thingol died so she was literally just some elf with no powers by then#and the idea of!! mablung finding his once radiant and otherworldly queen hunched over her husband’s dead body#looking very much faded in the literal sense. nearly unrecognizable. do you see the angst potential here

yesss these are my thoughts exactly!! in fact the reason i call thingol melian's one ring is because i think a comparable situation, though not totally analogous, to melian's departure from beleriand is sauron's loss of power after the destruction of his ring; he's reduced to a harmless spirit unable to exert any influence on the world. i don't think melian's situation was quite as dramatic, but i think with luthien's new mortality and then thingol's death, she lost a huge chunk of her power and was no longer able to maintain the girdle. i'd even say this explanation has decent basis in canon given what we're told in the silm:

"For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies."

it says that in her union with thingol, she becomes bound to the 'matter' of arda, so to speak, and that it is specifically in that form that she "gained a power over the substance of arda." then it says that with thingol's death a "change came also upon [her]" and her power was withdrawn from the land. and despite what the fandom likes to accuse her of, none of that sounds to me like melian was going "idgaf anymore" and voluntarily taking down the girdle

thingol as melian's own one ring, into whom she poured her spirit and power and divinity, is such a heartrendingly romantic concept

[lassieposting]

Oh god do y'all want a sad thought I just had

So. About Annatar's line to Durin in 2x03.

Durin IV: My father and I are no longer on speaking terms. You'd sooner get an orc to sit for a sun-bath than get us in the same room together.

Annatar: [...]perhaps bringing your father a means of saving his kingdom might be just the way to earn back his respect."

I'm side-eyeing this *massively*. This isn't just a manipulation. This man is projecting.

Aulë is, essentially, Mairon's father figure - the closest thing a Maia has. And, like Durin III and Durin IV, Aulë and Mairon are no longer on speaking terms: Aulë laid down a painfully obvious rejection during the First Age(?) when he sent Uinen to retrieve Ossë (Ulmo's Maia), but made no attempt to retrieve Mairon (his own). Regardless of whether Aulë intended to disown Mairon or whether it was a bluff to make him come home/an attempt to respect his choices, Mairon understood it as a complete and utter severing of ties and, as a result, made choices based on the belief that he could never go home to Valinor, because Aulë wouldn't have him back or advocate for him, and so he'd have no one to shield him from worse punishment than he'd get from Melkor.

Here, he tells Durin that saving Khazad-Dum will repair the fracture in his relationship with his father. And what did Sauron decide he needed to do after Morgoth fell?

Halbrand: I knew if ever I was to be forgiven, I had to heal everything that I helped ruin...together, we can save this Middle Earth.

He thinks that if he can go home to Valinor having "fixed" Middle Earth and put everything back in order, Aulë will forgive him.

[symphonyofsilence]

What I find fascinating about Galadriel's story, the story of the rebel Noldo who dreamed of ruling a land of her own, actually survived to rule her own land until the end of the third age, and all the while dreamed of home is that it's the story of someone taking all the risks, paying all the price, forgoing everything she had, going all the way, and getting what she wanted only to find out that that was not actually what she wanted. Only to want to go back to where she was at the beginning. Only to want to go home. Maybe it was as glorious as she imagined, but it wasn't worth the price. Maybe it was exactly what she had in mind, but she's got it years after she's wished for it & her wishes had changed since then. Maybe she was actually good at it, but "there's no place like home".

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

pretty interesting how curufin tells eol "those who steal the daughters of the noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin," but then later, along with celegorm, does something similar and even more unambiguously nonconsensual to luthien. the phrasing -- specifically "daughters of the noldor," not just "daughters" or something similarly broad -- gives the impression that curufin's issue with eol isn't in the fact that he's a creep who "stole" a woman away, but rather in the fact that it was a noldorin woman, and curufin's own cousin and friend, who was "stolen" by eol. you can certainly make the argument, given that he doesn't mention aredhel by name and given the phrasing of the reprimand, that he's not angry for her sake but purely about the fact that, from his point of view, eol failed to show the noldor proper respect by going through all the formalities expected when marrying one of them -- but my preferred reading of this line is that it's both. yes, he's angry on the more impersonal behalf of the noldor, but he's also angry because aredhel is his cousin and friend and he cares about her. and it's kind of... disturbing, almost, to picture curufin so understandably offended and enraged on aredhel's (and his family's) behalf as he rebukes eol -- only to then, a few decades later, lie to, seize, and detain luthien against her will, the entire time seeing her as just a piece of meat to further his and celegorm's political goals. he doesn't care what a horrific violation of her autonomy he and his brother are committing; he doesn't even think about the fate he's sentencing her to in planning to force thingol to marry her to celegorm. her outrage, her fear, her distress -- all of it means nothing to him. it probably doesn't so much as occur to him that aredhel might have experienced the same thing he and celegorm are putting luthien through

[erendur]

"For two ages more the noontide of the glory of Valinor endured. For seven ages then, as the Gods had decreed, Melko had dwelt in the halls of Mandos, each age in lightened pain."

The Lost Road

I knew I hadn't hallucinated this one !!!! I've been low-key looking for this quote of a bit for a discussion I was having months ago and I don't quite remember what the subject was, but here is :

a. An indication that at an early stage the Halls of Mandos were conceived as a much more Purgatory-like place than in later versions ; Melkor is not just subjected to isolation but also pain, that is being decreased as his captivity draws to an end (very reminiscent of the circle-like lay-out of Dante's Purgatory, where souls progressively ascend as they pay their due) ;

b. I think an added incentive for Maedhros NOT to negotiate with the Valar. He has been tortured by one already and wouldn't feel like spending anytime in a Purgatory-style Mandos for sure.

c. I think we could well imagine Melkor telling Maedhros all about his experience in Mandos during his captivity. Just in case.