#tolkien meta

[edennill]

I'm thinking about how the Edain in the tale of Adanel (which is non-canon for me, in part for that very reason but let me ignore that for a moment) are so impatient to know the world and it's that which makes them vulnerable to Morgoth's machinations, and my one post about Fëanor's biggest regret being that he didn't get to tutor Celebrimbor so he went to Sauron for schooling, and the idea that the Eldar were in some ways meant to be there to teach the Secondborn (and thus how their 'permanent' relocation to Valinor turned out badly for the latter) — but also the way the return was so... botched from the beginning, while maybe Fëanor was born to lead part of the Noldor back (in an actually positive way)... And like, I always say it's a mercy that he didn't get to befriend Men because our track record with incredibly charismatic people isn't exactly reassuring, but also if a Fëanor who was a better person from the beginning reached them... The conclusions that almost force themselves from all of this are honestly a little heartbreaking, because what it Fëanor was created to hold an almost Promethean(-but-divinely-ordained) role towards the Secondborn only he wasted all the potential on pointless quarells.

(And no it's not that I believe in any sort of predestination — even within Arda and the mysterious statements on will and fate — but... it's like the idea of a vocation I think (which for the record does not only specifically mean a human choosing a religious life), but that there is a particular mold that you fit and that will bring fulfillment if you find it — but that even having discovered it, you have the free will to follow it or turn away, only then the good that was to come from it might be lost)

(And if so then actually the idea (pardon me, is it expressed anywhere? I think Eri cited it at some point) that the corruption of Fëanor was one of Morgoth's worst deeds... it rings true — perhaps not in the sense that he even foresaw all of it, but that it was one of the single deeds with the most far-reaching consequences)

[growingingreenwood]

Here are my thoughts on Elves re-growing their teeth that nobody asked for:

Since Elves can live for literally ever if they're careful enough, I think it's super unlikely that one single set of teeth would be able to make it through all of the ages without even getting knocked out, rotting, or getting eroded overtime until they are flat to the gum. Unless of course Eru made them with invincible teeth (more invisible than any other part of the elves.) 

Personally, I think that it's most likely and the most PRACTICAL that Elves do the same thing as Crocodiles do where their teeth hollow out as they age so that a new tooth can grow into the space and eventually force the old tooth to fall out. Revealing a mostly fully grown tooth underneath. 

I think the FUNNIEST would be if it was like rodents and one single set of teeth slowly grows for eternity, so that if they don’t eat enough or wear them down their teeth get significantly longer than is ‘normal.’ Imagine the weird fashion trends the elves could come up with by purposefully growing out specific teeth.  

However, I think it would be the SCARIEST if it was the same as Sharks where they grow new teeth behind the old ones, and slowly force the older one’s forward until they become loose enough to fall out of their mouths. Could you imagine if elves had 2 - 3 sets of teeth at any given time in their mouths. Fucking terrifying.

[camille-lachenille]

I was thinking about how, in fanfictions and in the fandom in general, Elrond is often depicted as a pure Noldorin lord, if not a die hard Fëanorian. And while I do enjoy Fëanorian!Elrond, the more I think about it the more I am convinced Elrond is not the fëanorian one of the twins. Elros is. Elros who adopted seven eight pointed stars as the heraldic device of his whole dynasty, a symbol still used 6000 years after his death. Elros who had Quenya be the official language of Númenor. Elros who decided to leave Arda for an unknown fate after his death; not Everlasting Darkness but not the rebirth in the bliss of Valinor either. He choose to go to a place Elves aren’t supposed to go, just like Fëanor and his sons went back to Beleriand. Elros, the mortal man, who decided to forge his own path in the world.

And I am not saying Elrond didn’t, because Eru knows how much strength, patience and stubbornness Elrond must have to become who he is in LotR. But when I first re-read LotR after reading the Silm, he did not strike me as Fëanorian at all (except for the no oath swearing rule that seems to apply in Rvendell). In fact, Elrond, and all three of his children, are defined by being half-Elven. Elrond is so much at the same time they had to creat a whole new category for him. He is described as kind as summer in The Hobbit, but also old and wise, and his friendly banter with Bilbo in FotR show he is also merry and full of humour. Elrond is both Elf and Man despite his immortality, and this is made quite clear in the text.

But. If I had to link him to an Elven clan, I’d say Elrond is more Sinda than Noldor, and even that is up to debate. Rivendell, this enchanting valley hidden from evil thanks to his power, is like a kinder version of Doriath. Yet, the name of Last Homely House and Elrond’s boundless hospitality make me think of Sirion: Rivendell is a place where lost souls can find s home, where multiple cultures live along each other in friendship and peace.

In FotR, Elrond introduces himself as the son of Eärendil and Elwing, claiming both his lineages instead of giving only his father’s name as is tradition amongst the Elves. It may be a political move, or it may be a genuine wish to claim his duality, his otherness, or even both at the same time. But from what is shown of Elrond in LotR, he seems to lean heavily in the symbols and heritage from the Sindar side of his family, rather than the Noldor one. I already gave the comparison with Doriath, but it seems history repeats itself as Arwen, said to be Lúthien reborn, chooses a mortal life. Yet Elrond doesn’t make the same mistake as Thingol by locking his daughter in a tower and sending her suitor to a deathly quest. Yes, he asks Aragorn to first reclaim the throne of Gondor before marrying Arwen, but this isn’t a whim on his part or an impossible challenge. Aragorn becoming king means that Middle-Earth is free from the shadow if Sauron and Arwen will live in peace and happiness. Which sounds like a reasonable wish for a parent to me.

Anyways, I went on a tangent, what strikes me with Elrond is his multiple identity. Elrond certainly has habits or traits coming from his upbringing amongst the Fëanorians, and he loved Maglor despite everything. The fact he is a skilled Minstrel shows he did learn and cultivate skills taught by a Fëanorion, that he is not rejecting them. There is a passage at the end of RotK, in the Grey Havens chapter, where Elrond is described carrying a silver harp. Is this a last relic from Maglor? Possible.

But while Elros choose the path of mortality and showed clear Noldorin influences in the kingdom he built, Elrond is happy in his undefined zone he lives in. He is an Elf, he is a Man, he is Sinda and Noldo and heir to half a dozen lost cultures and two crowns. He is the warrior and the healer, the only one of his kind in Middle-Earth. And that is why I will never tire of this character and I love so much fanworks depicting him as nuanced and multiple yet always recognisable as Elrond.

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

I feel like legolas is the kind of elf that, while he absolutely can take the reins of a situation and lead people, is also absolutely chill with being the second in command. Unless it’s needed or the one in charge is gonna do smth stupid, he’s fine letting other people deligate tasks and make decisions and such.

Legolas walks the fine line between being more of a solo act and being a team player

And you can see this pretty clearly in lotr too, like he lets Gandalf and Aragorn take the lead for the most part bc he knows this isn’t his area of expertise, but we also see his initiative and confidence when he volunteers himself for the quest instead of letting someone else take part (like glorfindel).

It’s also really important to me that legolas is someone who follows orders because he chooses to follow orders. He doesn’t follow orders bc he has to or bc it’s what he’s supposed to do, he lets other people tell him what to do only when he trusts them/trusts their decisions/agrees with them.

[serene-faerie]

I wasn’t going to say anything originally, but I’m still really annoyed with that one reblog on my bingo card post.

So let me make this very clear:

MELIAN IS NOT A SELFISH NARCISSIST FOR ABANDONING DORIATH

I can’t believe this needs to be said, but apparently it must. Not only is it such a bad faith argument, but it’s completely wrong.

Melian was going through a tremendous amount of grief that was completely alien to her as a Maia. First, Lúthien became mortal and left Doriath to live a mortal life, and Melian has to deal with the fact that one day, she’s going to outlive her own daughter. Then she gets a chance to be a mother again when she and Thingol adopt Túrin, but despite her best attempt to raise him well, he runs away and ends up dying by his own sword. Which means she’s lost another child of her own.

She’s going through the kind of grief that no parent deserves to endure. Túrin may not be her biological son, but his death would’ve really hurt her, without a doubt.

Then, Thingol is suddenly murdered by the dwarves after a fight over the Nauglamir. Her beloved husband, the one she gave up Aman for, is dead, and by this point, Lúthien and Beren are both getting old and they’re also going to die in a couple of years. Melian is realizing that she’s going to basically outlive her entire family.

Can you imagine how that must feel for a Maia like Melian? She must’ve been going through so much pain and grief and heartache. I bet that this is when her Girdle around Doriath begins to fail— the Girdle doesn’t fall yet, but the sheer depth of Melian’s grief is enough to start weakening it.

Being in Beleriand would’ve been completely unbearable for her now. It actively starts to hurt her very spirit, and her powers weaken. I think she realized that if she stayed any longer, her powers would fail her, and she would probably fade away.

Melian didn’t abandon Beleriand because she was selfish. She left Beleriand because she realized that she could no longer live there without the one thing that made her powers flourish— her family.

I’m begging you, have some compassion for female characters and read through the book again PLEASE!

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

pretty interesting how curufin tells eol "those who steal the daughters of the noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin," but then later, along with celegorm, does something similar and even more unambiguously nonconsensual to luthien. the phrasing -- specifically "daughters of the noldor," not just "daughters" or something similarly broad -- gives the impression that curufin's issue with eol isn't in the fact that he's a creep who "stole" a woman away, but rather in the fact that it was a noldorin woman, and curufin's own cousin and friend, who was "stolen" by eol. you can certainly make the argument, given that he doesn't mention aredhel by name and given the phrasing of the reprimand, that he's not angry for her sake but purely about the fact that, from his point of view, eol failed to show the noldor proper respect by going through all the formalities expected when marrying one of them -- but my preferred reading of this line is that it's both. yes, he's angry on the more impersonal behalf of the noldor, but he's also angry because aredhel is his cousin and friend and he cares about her. and it's kind of... disturbing, almost, to picture curufin so understandably offended and enraged on aredhel's (and his family's) behalf as he rebukes eol -- only to then, a few decades later, lie to, seize, and detain luthien against her will, the entire time seeing her as just a piece of meat to further his and celegorm's political goals. he doesn't care what a horrific violation of her autonomy he and his brother are committing; he doesn't even think about the fate he's sentencing her to in planning to force thingol to marry her to celegorm. her outrage, her fear, her distress -- all of it means nothing to him. it probably doesn't so much as occur to him that aredhel might have experienced the same thing he and celegorm are putting luthien through

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

I do think that any fan who believes Tolkien intended readers to view characters as deserving of death, instead of simply meeting death as a consequence of their actions (or that one state-sanctioned execution), is fundamentally missing the ideology conveyed in ‘Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.’

[echo-bleu]

Alright, I've seen a lot of different descriptions and depictions in art, but I don't think this is actually settled in canon, so help me with something:

No "I want to see the results" you cowards, just make up your opinion on the spot if you don't have one.

I used round-shaped fruits but we also don't actually know the shape of the Silmarils, so assume for each answer that we're talking about whatever the largest diameter is in your shape of choice.

[lassieposting]

Oh god do y'all want a sad thought I just had

So. About Annatar's line to Durin in 2x03.

Durin IV: My father and I are no longer on speaking terms. You'd sooner get an orc to sit for a sun-bath than get us in the same room together.

Annatar: [...]perhaps bringing your father a means of saving his kingdom might be just the way to earn back his respect."

I'm side-eyeing this *massively*. This isn't just a manipulation. This man is projecting.

Aulë is, essentially, Mairon's father figure - the closest thing a Maia has. And, like Durin III and Durin IV, Aulë and Mairon are no longer on speaking terms: Aulë laid down a painfully obvious rejection during the First Age(?) when he sent Uinen to retrieve Ossë (Ulmo's Maia), but made no attempt to retrieve Mairon (his own). Regardless of whether Aulë intended to disown Mairon or whether it was a bluff to make him come home/an attempt to respect his choices, Mairon understood it as a complete and utter severing of ties and, as a result, made choices based on the belief that he could never go home to Valinor, because Aulë wouldn't have him back or advocate for him, and so he'd have no one to shield him from worse punishment than he'd get from Melkor.

Here, he tells Durin that saving Khazad-Dum will repair the fracture in his relationship with his father. And what did Sauron decide he needed to do after Morgoth fell?

Halbrand: I knew if ever I was to be forgiven, I had to heal everything that I helped ruin...together, we can save this Middle Earth.

He thinks that if he can go home to Valinor having "fixed" Middle Earth and put everything back in order, Aulë will forgive him.

[symphonyofsilence]

What I find fascinating about Galadriel's story, the story of the rebel Noldo who dreamed of ruling a land of her own, actually survived to rule her own land until the end of the third age, and all the while dreamed of home is that it's the story of someone taking all the risks, paying all the price, forgoing everything she had, going all the way, and getting what she wanted only to find out that that was not actually what she wanted. Only to want to go back to where she was at the beginning. Only to want to go home. Maybe it was as glorious as she imagined, but it wasn't worth the price. Maybe it was exactly what she had in mind, but she's got it years after she's wished for it & her wishes had changed since then. Maybe she was actually good at it, but "there's no place like home".

[edennill]

Obsessed by the implications that by the time kidnap fam is happening, Maglor is dealing with so much responsibility he never asked for. Basically becoming the person on whom the wellbeing of all his remaining family and soldiers depends on.

Like, Maedhros is technically in charge, politically, but he's also depressed and suicidal, perhaps actively so at times. Even if he's capable of managing the remaining Fëanorian forces, he's very much not capable of managing himself, or the twins. Or Maglor. Maglor is not used to this.

And at the same time, I think this is probably him taking small steps towards becoming the kind of person that is capable of throwing away the Silmaril and living on, despite the oath, despite his father's dying wish. The problem with growing up among Fëanorians is that you never learn how to decide without multiple very strong and overbearing wills influencing you, but this here is when Maglor begins to learn.

He will fall back on Maedhros at the crucial juncture once more and give in to his will regarding the Silmarils, but he will not follow him into death next. And then he will be alone, but he will tear off a scrap of linen, wrap the hand holding the Jewel in it and make a step towards the sea, and the step shall be his own.

[glorf1ndel]

I am reading The Fall of Gondolin, and in the prologue, Christopher Tolkien writes that the Noldor were "most beloved... by Aulë (the Smith) and Mandos the Wise." Which raises the question: what does Mandos, Doomsman of the Valar, really think of Fëanor and his people, the subject of his Doom? I have seen some fandom interpretations in which Mandos can't stand Fëanor, and it is entertaining to think of long-suffering Mandos' patience being tested by this one fiery Elf. I have seen other interpretations in which Mandos is quite dispassionate, which is also interesting. Yet I think the truth about Mandos and the Noldor is in what Christopher Tolkien understood from the writings of his father: he loves them. Mandos, known for being the most grim of the Valar, is singled out by Tolkien (alongside Aulë) as caring about Fëanor and his people. Why? Perhaps Mandos cherishes the Noldor for their wisdom, before Fëanor leads them in the Oath. Perhaps he is simply fascinated by these Elves, who are so different from him. But maybe the answer is more complex, because Mandos knows nearly all things that will be. What if Mandos sees the future of the Noldor, in Vairë's tapestries or in his own mind? What if he rages against that future, all the while knowing that it will not change, because that is the Vision of Ilúvatar? Mandos is well-acquainted with destiny, although he cannot see all ends. Still, the Noldor are most beloved by him, in all their good and evil and moral shades of gray. What if Mandos knows what Fëanor and his people will do, and chooses to love them anyway?

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

Wait, how is it that Legolas could walk over snow, yet fingolfin’s host had elves that fell through the ice when they were walking on the grinding ice?

And don’t say “magic” because i’m asking why it’s not consistent. Either elves are light enough or something to not fall into snow, much less ice, or they are heavy enough to fall through snow/ice.

I don’t care about the explanation, but it has to be either/or, or there needs to be a specific reason why one does work and the other doesn’t.

[serene-faerie]

I've just figured out why Maeglin makes me so uncomfortable. Why I just hate him so much.

It's because his behavior towards Idril is almost uncomfortably reminiscent of how creeps in the real world behave.

For the most part, The Fall of Gondolin is a fantasy: Elven cities, armies of dragons and Balrogs and orcs, all of that is very much fantastical.

But Maeglin's behavior towards Idril is unfortunately a very real thing that happens in the real world. There are plenty of real-life people who are creepy towards those they're interested in, and when the target of their interest doesn't reciprocate, or even dislikes their attentions, then those creepy people will retaliate by destroying their lives as revenge.

Sure, there are no real-world creeps going around and destroying hidden cities because they were rejected. But real-world creeps will turn friends and family against their target, stalk their target, maybe even get their target fired from their job. They basically destroy their personal lives as some kind of twisted revenge.

And by giving away Gondolin's location to Morgoth, Maeglin basically destroys Idril's life.

And no amount of personal tragedies in his life can excuse his entitlement towards his own cousin.

That's why I loathe Maeglin.

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

love how the narrative flat-out has zero sympathy for celegorm and maeglin after their attempted assault of luthien and idril respectively. they deserve only humiliation and death after committing such a repulsive violation of these women's autonomy, and that's what they were given. why it works so well is that they're both well-written characters with ample space for fleshed-out emotions, motivations, and thoughts; neither of them are simple caricatures of rapists whose sole purpose is to be icky and disgusting. they've both been through loss, trauma, grief, and pain. yet the narrative asserts that none of that matters. the moment they stooped so low, they became undeserving of understanding or mercy, and it was a good riddance that they died the way they did

[eri-pl]

What's with Tolkien and the "noun adjective"?

Flame Imperishable. Darkness Everlasting. (yep, opposites) I know those terms also occur with the morlam word order, but sometimes like this.

This isn't the normal English, is it? So, what is it? "I can, because I wrote the dictionary"? Archaic? something else?