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phantom-of-the-ruckus · 2 years ago

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Hello puppets theories #2: Why I can't see the handeemen as related

1/?

Special thanks to my discord sister (whose actually my best friend) and co-creator of the theories: @dolly-royal for hearing me rambling about evil puppets and cults, helping so much finding out my points, and bringing up points I did not notice.

This will be a jungle of many reasons why I don't see the handemen as related. There is a change individual posts will be created furthering these points.

And who from now on will be part of my tag list for my theories and observations

(If you want to be part of the list or wish to part take in discussions feel free to DM!!)

special thanks to @dreamland-creations for hearing my rambles and seeing my constant screenshots (ily little meow meow/planotic/affectionate)

Before reading this, please read my previous lore for more dept:

(I am linking the one with the reblog because Andrew replied to that tweet I shared, and explain to me the connection but sorta confirmed that Owen and Mortimer are indeed Gods)

As a quick recap. I came out with the theory that Riley believed Mortimer was her "Father" at first as she tried to explain logically (avoiding the supernatural aspects) until she accepted that Owen created her and just sees Mortimer as a leader. She just refers o him as her "true father" out of respect.

I am adding here some things that I forgot to mention:

I am very well aware of the first Nick Nack tape, however I will say this: The tape is originally around in the early years of the take-over. I have a theory in-process regarding the timeline. So that means during that tape Riley was refusing Owen as her creator.

Going also back to the same point. Daisy canonically has said and it's implied she doesn't really care what the others do as long as they're nice to her. She hasn't shown any evidence based on the puppet interactions that she sees them as a family. So no, I don't think she sees Mortimer or Owen as her fathers.

Nick Nack is the only handeemen that doesn't address Mortimer as father or has shown to see him as such + Not to mention he doesn't treat the others as family or has any indications that he sees them as such as evidently with Riley and Daisy.

So, with those things out of the way. I'll start with a post I wanted to make for a long time and it's about my arguments of why I strongly disagree with the view the puppets are related.

Disclaimer: I am not calling out or criticizing those who believe it. Although this is my personal opinion, yours is just as valid as mine and you have every right to disagree with me. Until we have an actual response, we only have speculation

So, I'll divide this into several points that I am working alongside with Amber (Dolly-Royal) to address our POV.

Part 1: The talks about Gods: Owen is not actually viewed as a father.

This is mostly about the cannon fact that Owen is a puppet God. It is established several points in the game as well as in the tapes itself. This is a straight-up fact that was actually brought in the first hello puppets game when Scout and host find Owen's dead body turned into a puppet-like human and Scout saying the following:

"Shit! That's Owen, that's the guy that made us ...(proceeds to explain Owen creating them and how he regrets it now)... it is weird to met your god" (Scout, Hello Puppets!)

This probably seems like some sort of irrelevant, or simply a weird comment off made from the first game, but actually...this is shown and implied several times in the actual gameplay of the midnight show itself.

The first example that I can actually think it was implicitly implied that Owen was a sort of God to the puppets was during the second phase of Riley's level where Owen calls her "Atheist" after she denied that he created her and believed that the puppets evolved.

I can see people taking this as Owen commenting in the whole evolution reflects Atheist beliefs, but that wouldn't exactly fit within the conversation Owen and Riley were having. Owen could simply remark that he was her father instead of calling her an Atheist if it was actually the case that he was her father as in terms of family and not Father as "Father of creation", which she sorta implies during off the conversation in one of the tapes.

"We are just reflections of our creator. A river and a tributary." (Daisy Danger loyalty tapes #7)

This goes pretty much goes along with the whole "Owen is a puppet God" narrative in the Midnight show as a whole. I did mention before that as someone who grew up in a religious environment, I was not stranger to see people referring to God as "Father" (in terms of Father of creation)

So, I wouldn't be rare for the puppets to refer to Owen as their father of creation, while Riley wouldn't due to not believing in God (hence why she was a puppet Atheist) which does goes along with this phrase she says during our first encounter with her in the MS.

"The others may call you that; but as far as I am concerned, Mortimer is our father, and you are just a Lab Rat" (Riley Ruckus first level, Hello Puppets!: The midnight show)

I believe that Riley was making clear she wouldn't call Owen her father because he was not the one who breathe life into her as it was Mortimer who did so, and therefore should receive the title of "Father" according to her mindset.

I did briefly mention a theory of mine involving Riley perspective of Mortimer at the end of my first long post focused on the lore and talk more about the cult theory:

It would make sense for Riley to call Owen a simple nobody who is no use to her other than some testing subject. Why would she care about a God she doesn't believe in? After all, Owen is not a puppet but just a human, a cattle for them.

Anyways, outside Riley referring to Owen as "The creator" there are other instances in the tapes and the actual gameplay where Owen is implied or is referred to be a God. There are the mentions of religion of the game by Daisy, but I'll divulge into later. Strangely enough, Mortimer is the one who constantly has made a lot of religious comments and these implications, Riley appears to be the second one. Daisy and Nick don't really mention much.

Anyways, I'll start with the minor implications towards Owen being confirmed in the game to be a good.

"For the love of Owen!" (Mortimer, Nick loyalty tapes #1 I believe. Hello puppet Midnight show)

This one is the most straight forward. This is clearly a reference to the phrase "For the love of God!", except that God was replaced by Owen because Owen is the creator, and therefore the actual God figure of the puppets.

Second one is more of an implication

"You'd rat out Owen himself if it got you a pat on the head" (Mortimer, Daisy loyalty tapes #7, Hello Puppets: Midnight Show)

Although some might argue that they would say that Nick would rat out their "Father", I actually argue that Mortimer comment about Nick ratting out Owen is actually about Nick ratting God himself just to get the benefits

Which does go along with Mortimer calling Nick a "Judas" who according to the New Testament in the bible betrayed Jesus (who was also referred to as God himself) for some benefits, or what Mortimer implies "A pat on the head"

This is actually into Mortimer's character, but that would be part of another segment.

Anyways, the most important reference Mortimer directly makes into the game in this cut scene:

Based on the context, and implications of Owen being a creator of the game, it's pretty clear Mortimer is referring to his situation with Owen himself as it's a conversation they have during that cutscene.

I am still trying to figure out what did the creators themselves particularly meant during that cutscene, but my best take is that Mortimer is referring to his plans to force Owen into submitting to the puppets.

The puppets have dark plans to survive and according to Scout take over the world, but well that might be just an exaggeration or an actual plan, but nothing of the sort was explained in the game prequel. We know that Owen tried to stop the puppets multiple times, and they would not be able to thrive because Owen did intend to undo the spell and at the end of the game it is implied that he wants to destroy them.

I would also love to mention something else Mortimer mentions "Owen's presence haunting the Handeemen." I think this has to do with the poetic parallel Andrew Allen mentions in this tweet:

I do believe Andrew confirmed that Owen and Mortimer are considered Gods among the puppets themselves (which could explain why Riley refers as Owen was an impostor), but as the religion suggest, Mortimer would be always lesser than Owen himself, and even though he tries to give what the puppets need (A shaman, a guide) he would always be overshadowed by the greater God that created them all.

This actually reminds of the whole Satan and God complex in many religions. According to some beliefs (not mine) Satan wanted to be like a God, but he is always lesser to Jehovah/God/Jesus. Which ironically both are represented as the Evil (Satan) and Good (God) of the world.

Which would not be shocking if the creators got some inspiration by the major ruling religions of the world like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (ironically, the later two taking inspirations from Judaism, and Islam from Christianity as well. Hence, why they are similar in some aspects)

Part 2: The Handeemen: It appears to be a cult

Heavy trigger warning for cult talks and cult characteristics.

For this section, I'll focus more into the character of Riley herself as she appears to have the most prominent behavior that I think might be hints it's not a "Family" but rather a cult

As my dear friend Stich pointed out in one of our conversations, we believe that the puppets are in, as she puts it, "A patriarchal cult" with Mortimer as their leader and the puppets as the twisted "Family" based on some strange behaviors the puppets exhibit throughout the game.

More notably:

"Mortimer should not be defied"

Throughout later in the tapes from the puppets and the game itself, you can see that Mortimer is being quite a respected individual and who the puppets will side with no matter what (more or less) it is clear that they follow him out of fear and also respect as he was the one who brought them to life and the one that they ought their loyalty towards him.

Still...they refused to go against Mortimer no matter what he does or what even Owen says.

I am well aware of the whole puppet rebellion but I actually have an interested take and I think I mentioned before in my headcannons, but I'll say it again:

Riley was visibly unsure when it came to "overthrow" Mortimer.

If you look closely at her conversation with Daisy in tape #12 (Riley's tapes) Riley has a peculiar way of sinking into the idea of betraying Mortimer:

"....That would be treason..."

If you listen to the tape closely, you can actually hear Riley is rather muttering with a slight hint of horror in her voice. Not to mention she takes a pause before saying more loudly

"If Mortimer knew..."

Wish is obviously referring to Mortimer getting upset about the idea but she's unable to bring herself to finish the sentence as she knows what Mortimer would do, which Daisy does explain that Mortimer would pretty much make Riley's life a living hell as Daisy suggest Riley should become the new leader.

Surprisingly, the first thing Riley says is a direct "No" as she starts to have a hard time explaining why she disagrees if you focus on the way her VA (Jannel Bierch) delivers this line.

"No. This...This is not a rational plan."

What I find interesting, besides Riley having issues with Mortimer's leadership over the puppets, Riley is quick to refuse the idea of throwing "A'coup", and it's actually Daisy that convinces her to carry on with the plan but rather tackles on one of Riley's ego to convince her to carry out the plan as if you noticed, Riley seems to be a character that adores admiration and to prove herself constantly as a character and be always right.

Still, even though she carries out with her plan, she still makes clear she doesn't want to do this and has no choice according to her last tape: Riley's loyalty tape #15

"Mortimer. Our true father. Our leader. It gives me no pleasure to say, that we have assembled here to dispose you today.....I will always revere the name Mortimer Handee; but your leadership has become unsteady, and it's time for someone else to lead the puppets to glory."

What I find curious is how Riley still remains respectful towards Mortimer even after she announces that she's trying to overthrow him. She even makes clear that this is something that could potentially pain her, but stills holds respect to Mortimer Handee as a character.

Why am I bringing this up? I'm bringing this up because I believe might have the mentality of a cultist in regard to her leader that are common within cults. I've been trying to reach articles in regard to the subject, but I would divulge more into the whole what makes them a cult than explaining the whole "family aspect", so decided to pull out some small characteristics of this small article.

More specifically, I want to bring these particular points out.

One of the biggest things that made me curious about why the Handeemen particularly remained loyal to Mortimer besides his treatment of them and how tired they are of him. I think this particular characters goes well with the whole

"Not defying Mortimer" and the portions I show of Riley's dialogue, that are proof that she's still loyal to Mortimer regardless of what he did to her. Before any of you tell me "Phantom, he manipulated Riley to stay with her with Rosco"

I do agree, but if you look closely at these subtitles and the way Riley thanks Mortimer then it does become clear Riley easily fell into her devotion with Mortimer:

This was one of the biggest hints that the Handeemen were a cult was the way Riley behaved around and some of the things she said. One of the other hints that she gives is in her personal dialogue in tapes and outside tapes:

Riley almost never talks about herself in a singular way when it comes to the handeemen. It is almost always the Handemeen as a whole. She does occasionally refer to herself, but when it comes to the Handemen it is always "We" as a whole.

Even she addresses when she complains about Mortimer, she briefly mentions "Yeah, he constantly gets upset over me because he forgets what he ordered me" but her biggest complaint is how "Mortimer is going to bring down the puppets"

Once again going with the whole "Us" mentality, and I think this portion of the article might be the reason why:

When you think more about this, that would make much sense into why Riley would be more concern about the Handeemen than for example let's say Owen or any of the hosts, and event Scout herself.

I have another reason why she acts the way with Owen and the other humans, but let's focus on Scout for a moment.

In the first game Riley mentions that she doesn't consider Scout "A Handeemen" in other words, she is not one of their kind. I've always wondered about why Riley despises Scouts so much and I think it is not exactly about her [Scout] being created to destroy the handeemen (which I highly doubt Riley is aware) but rather this:

Scout can arguably be considered as an outsider to the Handeemen group since she's not a handeemen (which furthers down my point)

I am mentioning this because I want to elaborate into a possible meaning of "Family" in the sense of the cult based on these two observations.

Outside like one or three mentions of the usage "Father" Mortimer is referred by his first same and is talked more about as a leader than a "Father." (there is no evidence proving he ordered not to be called a father)

What Riley considers her "family" just goes into the three Handemeen, however, she treats them more as colleagues/and a leader rather than a family + she referred to them as a family in just two "occasions" but gave no indication she sees them as such.

As I established before, Riley is nonetheless a loyal follower to Mortimer's cult. As from my previous point, I believe that Mortimer has more the association of a God than a father (another hint that is a cult) and I believe that everyone may probably have misinterpreted the whole "puppet Children"in the literal sense rather than creations considering Mortimer thinks of them more as subjects than a family (which I strongly believe he was using to guilt-trip the handeemen into submission)

(This is from Superhorrorbro tapes video. This is tape #15)

I think the whole "family" and "children of Mortimer" has a lot to do to what my good friend Stich herself said as she believes "The Handeemen are in a Patriarchal cult as a twisted "Family". "(implying she agrees they are not related)

Like I mentioned before, the usage of family can have a different connotation when it comes to religious subjects, and it is not strange for cults to use the terminology of "Family" to refer to the group inside the cult (which was confirmed by an ex-cultist.) E.I Charles' Manson's cult was referred to as a "family" even though the members were not related to each other at all.

This most likely tackles into one of the aspects cults tend to do with the followers as a form of abuse and control (taken from this Article this would be used a bit more into part 3)

I did mention before that I believe the puppets have needs of their own. According to Marlow's hierarchy, there is a need for love and belonging which correlates to something the cults prey upon to gather new followers, and I believe this is where the whole "family" thing becomes strong.

Family for the puppets is not about being an actual family. They are in a closeted group, an elite group (according to the previous "cult characteristics article" for a better explanation)

(I'll argue that instead of humanity, is referring to the well-being of their kind)

The usage of family to them is more about being part of something and belong. This can be a parallel to the religious aspects of cults. Although it's not prominent, the references to religion and Gods is no stranger in the game and is another aspect of the cult. This goes along with the "how to stuff article" mentions briefly in one of the things cults seek out for leaders that I mentioned later.

The best example of what I mean with the "family" usage of things would be from a work of Stephen King himself "Children of the Corn." For a quick summary, here's what google summarizes the movie to be:

I hardly doubt that all the children may be related (some might be) but I can see a parallel of them as just as the Handemmen being the loyal subjects who serve a higher figure and leader: Mortimer Handee.

This also goes along with Mortimer being referred almost always as the Handeemen leader, which even Riley does. Outside tape 1, Mortimer is simply referred by his name which I found strange.

He's always refer as Mortimer and "Sir" but not father. Like I said before, there is no indication that he demanded not to be referred as, but this might be because of the whole cult structure and calling Mortimer their leader and refer to his name is a sign from the puppets that they respect him.

Mortimer constantly refers to himself as a person of higher standing, which Andrew did confirm (think) that the puppets are in a sort of hierarchy where Mortimer comes first. He does imply it with this:

The game itself also treats Mortimer as the ultimate power of the puppets, which goes along with what I am saying.

There are also many points I want to bring about the cult theory, but that will divulge less into the subject of "Not being related" into this series of analytical posts, so that would be another thing for another set of posts.

I'll eventually released the other posts and make a master posts combining all of them into one place as Tumblr will not allow me to post pictures.