#toh discourse

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

it always pisses me off when fantasy stories have a cast of conventionally attractive humanoid characters with like,, different colored hair or something. like what do you mean your story is set in this amazing fantastical world with monsters and centaurs and aliens and sentient blobs, but your main cast is just a bunch of average joes?

[hikaaa-bi]

i find it funny how people praise the owl house for breaking the trend of redeeming the villain when the show instead took the laziest path with dealing with their villain. i mean, i get it. not all villains need to be redeemed and sometimes, it's just fine to kill them off or defeat them. no character is irredeemable, but sometimes the point is that people refuse to change.

but what they did with belos was just lazy. he didn't need to be redeemed, sure, but his ending was way too anti-climactic. he was such a complex character to just be labelled as Pure Evil™ and killed off at the end. he didn't need to be redeemed, but he at least deserved to be acknowledged as the three-dimensional complex character that he is. he wasn't just a disney-esque villain who did everything for power and had no depth to his personality. he was a symbol of religious trauma and how it affects people. he was a horrible person but also a sympathetic one, because i can only imagine how harmful growing up in the puritan era would have been.

like i said before, the show being cancelled is not an excuse. i was so excited to see all the religious and spiritual themes in belos's past, and all the theories that fans were coming up with. hell, some fans did a better job of representing belos than the show ever did. i just feel like it was a whole bag of lost potential. belos could have been one of the most insanely complex and well-written villains but the creators of the owl house wants to impress its fans, so they pull a "haha we're not like other shows because we can't sympathize with the villain!" newsflash: you don't need to redeem the villain in order to portray them as sympathetic. azula from avatar and simon from infinity train are good examples of sympathetic villains/antagonists who don't get redeemed.

it's even more ridiculous considering how rushed and badly written lilith's arc was, even though she cursed her sister, tried to kill a literal child, and almost got her sister turned to stone. you'd think if the show despises redemptions so much, they wouldn't give lilith a lazy and rushed redemption arc like that, only to render her useless for the rest of the show.

[flower-boi16]

Istg people in the toh community be PRAYING on the downfall of huntlow for no damn reason 😭😭🙏🙏 like my brother in christ are you that serious on sending full blown paragraphs on how you wish to see Hunter in agony and pain because he got rejected by willow? Mfs need mental evaluation, need a check in with the therapist, mfs need to unpack some hidden trauma of them being rejected themselves, and these are the same idiots who be shipping LUNTER, half of my disrespect to that ship since it's absolute dogshit and the shipper are the most insufferable and obnoxious people on planet earth (from interactions dw I'm not shitting on them for no reason) you can't convince me otherwise, but like fr I lowkey wish the toh community wouldn't be so quick to hate on ships because of it being a bit rushed and not having much chemistry, like don't tell me to my face you're an huntlow anti and are proud abt it, like girl you want a cookie? An award? You're not different for being the weakest link in the community

I'm really just going to say it; Huntlow discourse is some of the dumbest discourse in this whole show I've ever seen. I'm not a big Huntlow shipper but the sheer number of terrible takes I've seen for the ship is insane, then again it has Hunter attached to it and Hunter is a magnet for awful takes so why am I surprised.

The amount of times I had to defend this ship is embarrassing.

[daystarvoyage]

Hey hoping y’all get the chance to see my video essay on luz noceda May be my last one if I feel like fighting toxicity and reading the show to filth.

The masculization of luz noceda it’s a reference to this the lauryn hill album

ANWAY NEW THUMBNAIL

TIMESTAMPS

INTRO & CULTURE REP 2:50 MASCULINIZATION of BLACK WOMEN 8:41 Fashion features feminism 17:48

VIDEO GAMEs how it sees women Geek incel how poc & CONCLUSION 27:06

[waywardsunlight]

You shouldn’t draw Willow if you can’t or won’t draw her fat. Almost every drawing of her I see is her skinny and I’m so tired of it. Willow is consistently drawn wrong including IN THE SHOW ITSELF where she’s off model skinny for a minute and I think fat people have a right to be upset about how everyone portrays and draws her. She’s fat. Willow is fat. And she isn’t Hunter’s and Gus’s mom, or making Amity mean to her again intentionally bc that misses the point of her character/arc.

[catgirl-catboy]

God, in one of the ToH discourse things you reblogged op literally came back just to say "um I only read half of that but wrong. Don’t defend yourself why do you even care? you just wanna argue bye" Like she cared enough to start talking shit! OP was in her 20s 😭

Yeah. The biphobia and casual fetishization of wlw makes the fandom pretty damn inhospitable to me. Ironically, every time I try to comment on Amity's writing and how my girl was reduced to a sexy lamp in late s2 and s3, the cries of lesbophobia can be heard for miles.

Not all Lumity fans are like that, but enough of them are that I try to stick to reblogging art of the less common ships, even though I want to RB SO MUCH ART OF LILITH AND HUNTER, YOU FEEL ME?

[daystarvoyage]

Ok promoting a stereotype trope that’s been done in numerous shows

Honestly this is played out and very stereotyped,

I feel it does more harm then good, for people need to start being mindful what they put into media, and how to perceive things this kinda defeats a purpose of your going to have Hispanic representation.

Just my opinion.

(Plus couldn’t get a better pic of Camilla)

Camila is the most powerful character in the owl house

[kiapet2]

Alright, it’s less than a week since the Owl House finale aired and as expected I’ve already seen two direct comparisons to Steven Universe’s ending and several more vague-blogs, because one of this site’s hobbies is using other queer shows to put down Steven Universe. So let’s do this, then. Let’s compare the endings of Owl House and Steven Universe, and what each is ultimately trying to say.

Steven Universe and the Owl House are both shows that deal heavily with the clash of individualism and self-expression vs. socially-mandated conformity, and both shows’ final villains ultimately embody this conflict. One major difference, however, is that Owl House approaches this from the perspective of legal/societal structures, while Steven Universe approaches it from the perspective of family structures.

Steven Universe has always been about family--and particularly the ways traumas and biases are passed down through a family--and it has always heavily used the language of metaphor to discuss these topics. The Diamonds are the ultimate extension of this theme, something a lot of bad-faith (or just bad) takes on the ending miss; they interpret the diamonds in their literal capacity as dictators, rather than the way Steven Universe always portrays them, which is as matriarchs, i.e. the heads of a family who dictate and control all the family’s other members. This metaphor becomes more and more blatant until it outright becomes text, with the Diamonds turning out to be Steven’s literal family members, with whom his part of the family is estranged because of their previous controlling behavior.

In accordance with this theme, we ultimately find out that the Diamonds’ toxic ideology, with its rigid standards of perfection, are not only something they enforce on the gems below them, but also on themselves. They are suffering from the system in their own ways, unable to live up to the standards they themselves created. And who among us hasn’t known someone like that? A parent or grandparent who grew up under a cruel, oppressive worldview, and instead of rebelling against it internalized it--who turned around and said “I dealt with this, and so can you”? And so the ending of Steven Universe is the Diamonds realizing exactly how toxic the rigid ideology they’ve spent their lives perpetuating really is, and confronting the fact that their adherence to this ideology is what destroyed their relationship with Pink, and that the only way they’re going to have a relationship with Steven is if they’re willing to commit to changing both themselves, and the family structure they’ve enforced for so long.

Emperor Belos, in contrast, is not suffering from the structures he created, because his rules were never meant to apply to him. He sees the witches (and demons, and so-on) as lesser beings, evil beings, who exist to be controlled, and ultimately, exterminated. And every element of the society he built--the schools, the government, the police force, the religion--he intentionally constructed to keep these lesser beings under his control. The real-world allegory isn’t hard to see, here. And because what Belos represents in the story is, in fact, a fascist leader, the story shows that he can’t be reasoned with in any way that matters, and instead he is ultimately ground into paste beneath the boots of the people he sought to destroy. Different themes, different endings.

Now the usual argument that comes up here is as follows: but the Steven Universe ending isn’t as realistic! Not everyone is going to change, not everyone is going to be able to be reasoned with. Not every older, conservative family member is eventually going to accept you for who you are. And while that is true, ultimately SU isn’t meant to be realistic; it’s meant to be a power fantasy. Rebecca Sugar has come out and said before that they wrote a world in which there was good in everyone, because that’s the way she wishes the world could be. That’s the world they want to be able to believe in. And I am never going to begrudge a person, much less a queer person, for finding healing in writing that kind of world.

But you know what else is unrealistic? What else is ultimately just a fantasy? Grinding your government’s fascist leader into paste under your boot, then taking over and remaking society into something that accepts everyone. Sadly, Trump is not likely to get his ass beat any time soon. And more generally, punching fascists, while ideologically sound, is something most people are not going to get to do, due to real-world consequences such as “getting beat up by the fascist’s angry friends” and “being arrested for assault”. And even if you did depose one leader, our very society is set up in a way that perpetuates all manner of injustices, and systemic change is a complex and lengthy process that almost certainly won’t be completed in our lifetimes. But it’s fun to imagine we could, isn’t it?

Both endings are power fantasies. Both show the way they want the world to be, rather than the way it is. They are very different power fantasies, which fill very different--and at times conflicting--needs. And in situations like that, internet culture really likes to pick one to be the right fantasy, the right way to look at the world. 

But the truth is, both fantasies are needed! Some people need stories about your queerphobic relatives finally realizing the error of their ways and taking the necessary steps to accept and reconcile with you. And some people need stories where you get to grind fascist bastards beneath the heel of your boot. It’s okay if you prefer one type of fantasy over the other! But in the end, both are valuable, and both are important. 

And isn’t it wonderful, for us to have such a diversity of great queer stories? That we can explore both of these deep, conflicting needs? Let’s appreciate each of these fantastic works for what it was meant to be, rather than trying to pit them against each other or make them conform to a single, “best” way to tell a story.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

hunter and luz: talk about belos and the magic system, open up to each other about their trauma and fears, rescue each other from dire circumstances

hunter and amity: relate to each other as abused children and perfectionists who are afraid of letting people down

hunter and gus: relate to each other’s experiences of being used by people and helps calm each other down in a moment of distress, also finds a common middle ground with a piece of media they both enjoy

hunter and willow, the literal love interests: uhhh both of them are considered half a witch because one of them was a late bloomer and the other is literally disabled?

[hikaaa-bi]

hot take: gustholomule was way better developed and had more chemistry than huntlow, despite not being a canon ship

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

huntlow definitely isn't as bad as the other two, but it's far from healthy in my opinion. i think the main problem with it is that it completely erased any development hunter could have had after escaping belos, since he seemingly found another person to worship. they were also so ooc with each other, they were basically two different characters and that doesn't bode well for a ship. not to mention, willow invades hunter's boundaries several times and there are even clear parallels between the way she treats hunter and the way belos treats him (i'm not calling her abusive but idk why the writers thought it was a good idea to make her and belos drag hunter into the ground the exact same way).

another thing that frustrated me was that hunter's trauma was completely pushed aside so that willow can have another mini-arc about her self-worth (which was already tackled in s1, mind you). basically, hunter was grieving over flapjack's death, willow shows him a picture of flapjack to comfort him, and hunter understandably looks upset. and to this, willow just runs off and makes it all about herself until hunter has to go after her and comfort her instead.

he was the one who got his body puppeted by his abusive uncle, almost died and lost his best friend in the span of a few hours, but i guess willow's whole half-a-witch crisis was more important?? he had to put aside his grief and trauma, so that he could make her feel better about herself.

also, it was really iffy of the writers to make a connection between willow and hunter by calling them both “half-a-witch” when willow was a late bloomer and hunter was.. disabled. these two things are not even remotely similar.

willow was still capable of magic, she just wasn't good at abomination magic. hunter was completely incapable of magic because he wasn't a natural witch. this connection just seemed forced because i guess the writers knew that hunter and willow had no natural chemistry, and they needed to relate to each other in some way.

simply put, huntlow could have worked as a healthy relationship but the writers fucked it up. willow was generally a really sweet person but she acted so ooc with hunter that she became kind of unlikeable. and this ship was unnecessary and forced anyway, especially for a show that was already cut short. that screentime could have been utilized for more important plot points like belos' backstory or the collector's origins.

Can somebody please explain to me why Huntlow is in the same tag as Stolitz and Catradora? Like??? I have my own issues with Huntlow but that ship is LEAGUES better than Stolitz and (from what I've heard) Catradora. Like I completely agree that Stolitz sucks but like. Huntlow???? Unhealthy???? Huntlow is a masterpiece compared to Stolitz lmao its not even REMOTELY comparable.

Yeah, I was never a big fan of Huntlow, it's not bad per say it's just kinda boring, but it's definitely healthy, it's not even comparable to catradora or stoliz, my guess is that some people find it unhealthy because Willow is in a place of power over Hunter or something like that, I do not know.

[slowpokedragon]

fellow huntlow hater. roast them

YAAAAYY OK HERE I GO

fandom ruined it - why is willow commonly hotsexy fat girl w huge boobies OR extremely ooc shy when we know her personality changed after her memories were burned. why is hunter always uwu shy boy when hes got pretty fucking severe anger issues, theyre just leashed.

boring - literally zero taste ship. what do they even have in common aside from flyer derby. fucking amity and hunter have more chemistry (does anybody remember eclipse lake CAN ANYBODY HEAR ME)

comphet nightmare - WILLOW... WILLOW YOU COULD HAVE BEEN A BUTCH LESBIAN... WILLOOOOOWW!!!! WILLOWWW!!!!!!!!!!!

no chemistry - LITERALLY THIS. fuck man idek what else to say they just dont have shit in common! willow literally triggers him in FTF w the flapjack photo and then shes like "ohh... im sooo sorry i did this... im gonna run away and cryyh....." HUH? why is she making it about herself ?? literally forced to be ooc for sake of ship... why is hunter comforting her abt this during her ooc as shit breakdown when by all right he has a right to be angry and has been shown to be the type to hold a grudge? and for that fucking matter, willow has never actually been the type to "smile and hold it all in" in the same way that luz is. she WOULD actually rely on camila and talk to her, because shes used to having good parents she can rely on. (not to say camila is a bad parent, but clearly she and luz struggle communication wise.) I MUST ALSO COMPLAIN... WHEN DOES ANYBODY CALL HUNTER "HALF A WITCH"? HE IS LITERALLY A TEEN PRODIGY. people dont even know hes powerless without his staff, we LITERALLY SEE LUZ REALIZE THIS ON SCREEN!!!? why the FUCK is canon trying to tell me that they can bond over being called "half a witch"? BULL FUCKING SHIT

stupid, in an annoying way - willow and hunter are both in turns forced to be the damsel in distress for ship moments when theyre both extremely competent combatants and the struggles they face that enable those ship moments are Fucking Dumb.

how tf is this even a ship? - literally forced to be ship by the show... hunter my beloved you could have been the lumity homewrecker (and i have THOUGHTS on how Nothing the lumity ship is and how dirty they did amitys character)

keep that girl away from him! - ah yes willow, the forceful character who tends to impose her will on her friends post memory episode, and has even used magic to restrain hunter before (flyer derby episode); im sure this will be great for hunter's self actualization and cause zero backsliding in regards to him being used to being the caretaker for belos who bends to his will under every single thing and is a people pleaser and has only been shown to be himself properly around luz (and gus to a lesser extent)!!!!!

i can fix them if i actually cared - this would require a real huntlow based episode where they talk things out and willow becomes uncomfortable with how hunter is willing to do anything for her and even gets her things before she asks (like, if she mentions being thirsty, before she even gets up hes already back with a glass of water and an expression akin to a dog awaiting praise.) this compounds over the episode until she freaks out a bit and then sits him down and asks what His Fucking Deal Is and hes forced to confront his people pleaser nature, and resolves to change for the better.

its genuinely just bad. - REEKS of "oh shit we gotta pair everybody off except not gus cuz hes a baby but we will also shiptease him and matt btw youre never getting a proper mlm ship Fuck You". ...also i must once again complain about ooc willow. why does she only reciprocate hunter's crush after he isnt disabled anymore (unable to use magic)? like, its not a good look. yikes! once again i must also complain abt the writers turning hunter from bratty and sarcastic to the malewife for the girlboss x malewife trope... why did they do this to you king. i will not deny willow becomes a girlboss though, she genuinely changes as a person, but why does she become so over the top aggressive towards hunter specifically, mandhandling him w magic like she does to NOBODY else, and forcing her will on him?? its fucking weird

i need the shippers to die - INSUFFERABLE! FUCK MAN who give a shit whats canon!! fuck off and leave me alone i will ship lunter, willuz, amillow, and huntmity as i please!! why must you harass us! "weh weh luz and hunter have a sibling relationship" if you dont fuck off and leave me alone they are LITERALLY JUST FRIENDS why must everything be nuclear family tropes to you people. do you understand that found family does not mean any ships within that dynamic become incestuous? the entire point is that it is a Found Family which dynamics differ from a traditional familial dynamic!! I Am Going To Wring Your Neck.

better as friends - everyday i think about the ending credits of WAD and willow leading hunter down the hill... how cute would that have been as a friends scene... i wouldnt even have been mad if it was shiptease post canon w zero other shippy content

NO ONE GETS THEM BUT ME!!!! - ohhhhhuuuuhhhhhggggghhh... huntlow i ship you under such specific circumstances...... adult huntlow my dream..........!!!!!!!! LESBIAN BUTCH WILLOW FEMME TGIRL HUNTER HUNTLOW???? GAAAHHHHH

just make ocs atp - re: being ooc as shit in most content. someone please give hunter his anger issues swag back. also im just gonna tangentially complain that I Do Not Like Tboy Hunter. just... puts a hand on the fandom's shoulder. think about how that would work in canon for a minute. why would philip create a grimwalker meant to mimic his brother and then not give it an AMAB body. be so fucking for real right now. i dont wanna hear shit about "what if caleb trans" in a serious argument sense. no he is not it was the 1600s and they were already ostracized from gravesfield upon moving there and became witch hunters to fit in! his ass would have been lynched for being a witch bc "only witches have gender nonconforming properties" was a real and actual thing back then. BE SO FOR REAL!!!!! and i dont wanna hear shit about "well what if hormone changing potions" because ONE hunter has completely different physiology and we do not actually know how potions work on him and TWO are you seriously trying to tell me philip wouldnt scrap a grimwalker with a completely incorrect set of genitalia. ARE YOU REALLY TELLING ME THAT THE WHITE CIS PURITAN MAN -

its too popular - literally i have the tag blocked and its just allllll filtered posts in hunter or willow's tags all the way down

[flower-boi16]

Shipping wars are embarrassing in of itself. TOH is a magnet for these kind of things, I personally really don’t care about canon ships since I stick to my own bubble but good god.

Don’t harass people over their ships, the best you can do is block that person and get on with your life.

LEGIT tho. TOH is a magnet for horrendously shitty takes and critiques, especially when it comes to the show’s ships.

[daystarvoyage]

NEW VIDEO EVERYONE I PUT MY ALL INTO THIS! ENJOY

The library is open on ths voyage

TIMESTAMPS INTRO & CULTURE REP 2:50

MASCULINIZATION of BLACK WOMEN 8:41

Fashion features feminism 17:48

VIDEO GAMEs how it sees women of poc, Geek incel how poc & CONCLUSION 27:06

Discussing Luz noceda feminine & ethnic features not being prominent diaspora issues and todays female standars of not being beautiful enough next on Kyoko cane crack down

make sure to comment subscribe.

[itslilacmoon]

mods are asleep, post forbidden myosotis hexsquad polycule

[alex-rambles]

I don't even ship Luz x Hunter but some of yall are genuinely awful about how adamant you are about this ship being bad. Yall will be screaming "sweet home alabama" if you see Lunter art bc "tHey'rE siBLiNgS." No. They are not.

It'd be one thing if Luz's mom adopted Hunter. But if your excuse is "Well in Thanks to Them-" then Lumity is also incest bc Camila said "I never expected to be a mother of SIX." Which counts Amity.

If you're saying "well they ACT like siblings," genuinely just stop because my boyfriend and I have the same dynamic??? Relationships have more to them than "heehee handholding and kissing and blushing." Sometimes there's arguing (playful and otherwise). Sometimes relationships are more relaxed.

And if you're saying "but Luz is dating AMITY," cool, in canon, she is. Multishippers exist. AUs exist. Poly ships exist.

Just because a ship can't be canonically possible because another relationship is implied (Huntlow, which I ship) or active (Lumity, which I also ship) doesn't mean that anyone shipping outside of canon is bad.

So on that note, if you're crying about it because "it's just not canon," you better not have ANY ships outside of canon in other materials. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

It's one thing to have a ship you don't like. I don't like Lunter either. But yall need to stop accusing people of being proshippers or endorsing "incest" because they drew two characters who are not biologically (like shipping, idk, Dipper and Mabel) or legally (as in the case of Gumball and Darwin) related.

Have your headcanons. Have your ships. Stop shitting on people who don't follow them.