#the owl house criticism

[stanlunter]

Dana Terrace on her way to steal everything she sees form other shows instead of making up at least something herself:

[autistic-ben-tennyson]

Lumity: Controversial Opinion

I have a lot of mixed feelings regarding Lumity. As a young queer, it was important for me and my development. It did a lot for queer representation and the fact that Luz is human means people can’t deny the queerness of it like some tried to do with Ruby and Sapphire by claiming they were aliens so it didn’t count. It is a cute sapphic romance and was very groundbreaking.

That said, it’s not the perfect romance it’s stans make it out to be. In many ways, it’s a wish fulfillment story, Luz gets to be with the rich, popular girl and be the hero of the Boiling Isles. They had some problems that they never really resolved. Luz kept lying and keeping secrets even after promising to be more open. On Amity’s end, her bullying in season 1 was sort of retconned to her parents and Boscha forcing her to act that way when there were several instances of her being nasty to Luz or Willow for no reason. Them breaking up or even taking a break would have taught both consequences. Amity’s bullying did play a role in Luz keeping secrets and she never got called out for it and was woobified.

Hardcore fans may dislike this but them breaking up wouldn’t be the end of the world. It would teach queer youth that queer relationships can have their own issues and breakups like cishet romance and you have to accept that because sapphic relationships are not inherently more pure than het ones. I may be biased towards Lunter but the latter ending up together would show that M/F couples can be queer as well and that it’s not “gay erasure” for a bi woman to end up with a bi man. Again, it was a groundbreaking ship for representation but isn’t the perfect romance and not everyone who dislikes it is a homophobic “parents rights” activist.

[mdhwrites]

TOH Fans Don't Know What Redemption Is

TL:DR: TOH as a show uses the tropes and veneer of redemption a lot but fails to actually engage with the fact that redemption is not about no longer being a dick. Your kind of a dick friend does not need to be redeemed for calling you names, they just need to stop calling you names. No, redemption is about making up for past sins... Which TOH never does.

You do not go to confessional to tell someone you did something bad and then ask them to forget about it. You go there to be told what you must do to be redeemed in the eyes of the Lord or to be assured that there was no sin in the first place. If there was, you are asked to perform a service, even if just a set of prayers, to make up for your slip in faith and show your devotion to the path of good. You sacrifice your time and seek to do better. That is inherently a part of redemption. I frame this religiously but hey, if you get rowdy in your buddy's house when they asked you not to and you break something of theirs, you don't just apologize. You usually actually try to make it up to them if you can because otherwise all you've done is give them words when it's actions that spoke for your disregard to them. You might even ask what you can do to make it up to them.

For an absolutely classic and genuinely amazing example of this: Megamind. In the middle of his arc, Roxanne makes it clear that what Megamind has done has hurt her. Hurt what she cares about. That it has made her world worse. What does Megamind do? He returns the art, he cleans up the city... In his own way and in general UNDOES HIS CRIMES. In that one moment, he stops being selfish and actively attempts to make up for it for someone else by righting his wrongs. The worst you can say is that he's doing it because he likes someone and wants their affection but like... Yeah, that's the motivation to change and Megamind even admits himself that he's finding doing good to be enjoyable now. It's a powerful moment because it so clearly contrasts who he was in a way that would be impossible if he were not seeking redemption and being redeemed.

The ONE TIME TOH actually manages this is Lilith. She recognizes that cursing her sister was wrong. She recognizes that her attempts to be the most powerful person on the Isles was wrong. As such, her betrayal of Belos is NOT her redemption. If she chose to betray Belos because she personal gain in it or saw that it was a dead end in life, it would not be redeeming (this will come up later). Instead, she is truly redeemed because she gives up potentially everything but especially her ability to be above others and her sister by taking the curse unto herself. By sharing that burden she was responsible for first and acknowledging that what she did, specifically, was wrong.

People don't champion Lilith though as some great redemption, do they? Not when it comes to TOH. She's overshadowed by the ones given more of a to do like Hunter, Amity and The Collector. Especially those first two though. So, how do they manage?

Amity has crimes. She bullied Willow when she did not have to as Odalia's demand was ONLY to stop being friends with her. She bullied Willow regardless. She attempted to murder Luz. She tried to remove Luz's ability to use magic and was overall just a general bitch who was more than happy to keep taunting Luz for entertainment. She is genuinely a fucking AWFUL human being at the beginning of the series. Does she even bother recognizing this?

No. Not with more than words. That's all Willow gets. In fact, Amity is so disinterested in making up for being a bitch to Willow that she ignores EVERYTHING about her for almost an entire season after they 'make up' which they only make up with words. Amity just says the right thing and seems to think that's all it takes. She still uses Willow for her own selfish needs in Falls and Follies and she doesn't respect Willow during Labyrinth Runners. She does literally nothing to actually redeem herself for this.

How about refuting Boscha or her mom? Those are pretty big deals and against her old self, right? Well, yes and no but we need to interrogate the why for that. To the audience, it is meant to signify Amity giving up her past influences to be a better person. As I stated at the top, it is a common trope in redemption arcs which TOH does engage with. However... She's doing them for Luz and not because of the past. She tells Boscha to go fuck herself not because Amity was a grade A bitch with Boscha but because Boscha is now bullying someone she cares about so she can dropped just as fast and brutally as she did Willow in the past for the sake of pleasing someone else. NOTHING about her behavior is different except now she's doing it for someone as good. That's not redemption. We don't praise the Punisher here just because he murders bad men. Odalia is similar. It's not to make up for Odalia's influence or the things she did because of Odalia, it is to selfishly proclaim her own personhood... And more importantly, save her girlfriend. It's not even to make up for the expulsion, it's JUST to keep Luz alive. Yes, she gets them unexpelled but only once she first acts for the sake of Luz not dying. She has NO INTEREST in getting involved until then and at that point, it's not her crime, it's Odalia's. That's what makes her motivation being Luz not work because the motivation might be Luz, but the result isn't her facing her past, it's just facing a cartoonish villain.

And if your argument is "Well, all she did was because of Odalia," I would respond with, "Okay, that not a redemption then, that's just a regular character arc." If your character does not actually try to IN UNIVERSE redeem themselves, how can you call it a redemption arc? Sasha is ready to DIE for all of Wartwood to make up for the fact that they're gonna get wiped off the face of the map because of her. She acknowledges that she was wrong and always wrong and goes out to do something about that. She gives up command to Anne in order to try avoid her old mistakes because she is so actively trying to do better than she used to. Redemption is never easy and requires shit like this. The best way to do it fast is, well... Death.

This is why the heroic sacrifice trope is so beloved for redeemed villains. They go from spending an entire life causing misery and being selfish to making the ultimate sacrifice against that which they stood for. In one moment, they seek that redemption... But expect no reward which only further bolsters how this is redemption. Redemption is selfless. You never HAVE to redeem yourself. You never expect a prize or even a better life from redeeming yourself besides being able to sleep better at night. It's a powerful trope...

And Hunter's version of it is literally the worst example I can think of for the trope. Yes, we technically get him rescuing the Emerald Entrails before this as a moment of redemption but what about just redeeming his time under Belos and as the Golden Guard? Well... Essentially no one even gets more than a token apology for that. He just sob stories his way into people's hearts instead of actually do anything to earn their affection outside of Willow KIND OF. But hey, that should be fine since he does sacrifice his own life, right?

Well, again, context. What does he sacrifice for? Because it's not anyone other than him. Just listen to literally the words he's saying. He talks about how much better his life is now. How much he likes the perks of being a good guy like friends. He barely remembers to include that stopping Belos needs to be a part of this without him just looking like a mooch of a friend because he never mentions how it feels good to help people, how he hates what he did with the Emperor or even that he believes more in self expression now. It's ENTIRELY selfish. He doesn't even expect to die, he's just telling Belos to go fuck himself and ends up dying in the process, which is actually pretty normal for a selfish henchman betrayal it's just that the show doesn't realize that's what he's doing.

This is indicative of the show's approach to redemption as a whole and we even get a thesis statement on that. The Collector. If you just say you're sorry and are on the correct side, you're redeemed! Making up for all the damage you did when you absolutely can fix it in like a week? Actually putting yourself up for punishment by those who's autonomy you took away and then tortured? Fucking ANYTHING besides unpuppeting people that he did for months to terrorize the entire Isles? No. He said he's sorry and he's just a goofy little guy so he's redeemed! Right?... Right?

And then the Collector takes this very basic idea of redemption, of just needing to show a bit of kindness and people will magically change, and applies it to Belos. For only the second time, in the whole series, does it not work. The problem with saying that means the show understands this topic and has nuance is... The other example is Kikimora. Neither of these characters are people. They caricatures of villains. They're so pure evil that the idea of redeeming them is, well... A joke. Literally, in the show, the attempt to redeem Belos is a joke. Why would you think the baby eating psycopath was just going to need a hug? That is the level of cartoon villain we are dealing. That's not nuance, it's bullshit, which is why it has never functioned as a critique of SU like it clearly is, especially not when the person who does it JUST NEEDED A FEW KIND WORDS. Like the Collector literally IS just the arc they describe and then try to mock and never even blinks at this fact.

But we call these redemption arcs because they were tokenly villains before hand. I would at this point argue that we need to stop doing that. If we think TOH even purports the concept of redemption, that implies you can learn how to write redemption through TOH. You can't. Bluntly, you cannot because it barely ever tries and when it fails, it fails miserably.

The Diamonds at least promised, and kept their word, to undo their damages. I don't think you get to mock that with your redemptions when you can't even manage that much 75% of the time. See you next tale.

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[sidecharactersdomatter]

Does anyone else think that The Owl House failed its male characters? This question is purely rhetorical not controversial.

[psychicbarbarianinfluencer]

Just for fun what would you say is your most unpopular toh opinion that a good chunk of the fandom seems to disagree with you on?

So basically an opinion that normally makes other toh fans react to you like this lol.

[mr-damian-s-power]

Amity doesn't feel like her own person anymore

I feel that the post I made about Amity yesterday that I deleted could have been worded differently. That was the issue with it, I think! People saw the word 'co-dependant' and assumed the worst of me, despite me clarifying that I wasn't stating it as fact. I was even debating telling my true feelings on Amity because I know how people are with their favourite characters. How about I put it more like the title?

What was Amity's character post-S1? She....loves Luz, she wants to spend all of her time with Luz, aaaaaaand.....she's got daddy issues! Hey look, something not related to Luz! But do you see my issue? She doesn't seem to have much to do aside from love Luz and occasionally deal with her crap homelife. I used to think people were exaggerating when they said that Amity is just 'Luz's girlfriend', but I really do think she devolved into just that.

Also, what do the loving pair actually have in common? They...both like Azura! That's it as far as I can tell. But even then, Luz is clearly more into it, while Amity may just have a fleeting interest.

The main issue I see with Amity is that I can't really imagine her on her own. I can't picture her without Luz right there. She's so intertwined with Luz, she's practically been absorbed into her and hangs off like a giant tumour.

Here's my sad point that I thought only I held, until I saw someone else say almost verbatim what I thought. Amity loves Luz more than anything. She gave up everything to be with Luz. She has no goals or ambitions outside of Luz. Luz is Amity's everything! And Luz? Luz, while she also loves Amity and reciprocates that love, only really sees a girlfriend in her. Yeah, she loves Amity, but she also manages to have a life outside of her with her other friends.

And I've said it already in my burn-out post, but I really feel like the Hexsquad are more Luz's friends than Amity's friends. To her, they seem more like 'friends of my friend' where they are tangentially affiliated. I forget sometimes that her and Willow used to be friends! What actually ARE her thoughts and feelings on Gus? Have those two ever even spoken to each other?

-

There, I think I worded that a little better, likely by not using 'co-dependant'. But please still tell me what you think? Does Amity feel like a she's no longer her own person? Am I just speaking out of my arse?

Thoughts?

[hikaaa-bi]

whenever someone says they dislike huntlow, the usual comeback from toxic huntlow fans is that “you're a misogynist and you don't want to see the woman in a relationship being stronger”. so i want to address this issue today. is huntlow bad only because willow is stronger than hunter and isn't a damsel in distress?

in my opinion, absolutely not. that's not the case. i myself am a fan of subverted tropes and relationships where the woman isn't just a passive damsel with no personality. i like seeing independent women and i like seeing men being vulnerable for once.

to demonstrate my point on why huntlow doesn't pull off this trope well, let me compare it to a ship with a similar dynamic: sokka and suki from avatar the last airbender.

let's go through each of the reasons why sukka works as a ship where huntlow fails.

1. Does it make sense for the characters?

the first question here is: do the roles of the strong independent woman and weaker man suit these characters?

sokka was introduced as.. just a guy. he was a regular teenager who wasn't trained in combat. he could fight well enough if he wanted to and being the only man in a village full of mostly children and elders, he was the best warrior in his village (if we are even to believe his claims in s1, that is).

suki, on the other hand, was a trained warrior. she had spent her whole life training in combat and fighting to continue kyoshi's legacy. in her very first appearance, suki is confirmed to be a skilled warrior who is much stronger than sokka.

this setup makes perfect sense. it wouldn't come as a surprise later on that suki is stronger or a better fighter than sokka, and would have to rescue him or help him out in a moment of crisis.

now let's come to huntlow. in s2, hunter is introduced as the emperor's right-hand man who is young but powerful. while most of his intimidation factor came from his artificial staff, it was clear that he was not an amateur and had decent combat skills.

this assumption is only solidified when we see him go head to head with amity, only losing because 1. he was using a new staff 2. he was sleep deprived and 3. he was in an extremely erratic emotional state.

willow, on the other hand, was the sokka in this relationship. she was a regular teenager who grew up in a normal family and went to a regular magic high school.

she was certainly incredibly skilled in plant magic but she was not a trained child soldier like hunter. she had a lot of potential to be a good fighter but she had only recieved the education that every other student had recieved. not to mention, most of her stronger magic came from her emotional outbursts.

so.. does the whole girlboss-malewife dynamic work with huntlow? no. it really doesn't. even if willow trained and grew as a witch, there's no reason why she should be stronger and more skilled in combat than hunter, who had to pass seemingly impossible trials in order to qualify as the golden guard. especially since after the first half of s2, hunter was not only weaker than willow but just weak in general.

i get it, he doesn't have natural magic like the others. but he was still shown to be a very competent fighter. he was also shown to be cunning and strategic, being able to find a way out of any situation if he wanted to. but after joining the hexsquad, he is dumbed down to willow's shy and pathetic boyfriend, who doesn't really do much on his own.

2. are they in character when in a relationship?

when writing a relationship, this is really important. if you write a relationship where one or both characters have to act wildly out of character to make sense for the relationship to happen, those characters are not compatible. it's like when your friend acts uncomfortably different around their crush or partner.

let's start with sokka and suki.

sokka is goofy, cynical and quick-witted, with or without suki. his relationship with suki doesn't drastically change his character, but it does improve it. suki helps sokka change his misogynistic worldviews and respect women, but apart from that necessary improvement, sokka is still the same. he is not out of character when he is with suki.

as for suki herself, we don't see a lot of her away from sokka but it's still safe to assume that she is being herself around sokka. she is not forced into a new role in order to be in a relationship with sokka. the times we do see her on her own, she is pretty much the same rational, independent and nonchalant person that she is around sokka.

and yet, both of them have incredible chemistry and very clearly care for each other. it's not one-sided and it doesn't feel unnatural.

but huntlow?

hunter is introduced as a sarcastic and bratty but deeply traumatized teenager. he is quick to start a banter with whoever he is with, he tends to talk too much, and he generally has a nonchalant attitude to cover up with trauma.

but with willow? hunter is not just shy or awkward around her, he is a completely different person. i can understand that being attracted to a person can make you act strangely sometimes. but with hunter, that awkwardness never fades away. he is always blushing around her, he is often portrayed as pathetic and helpless, and constantly needing willow's support and guidance.

as for willow, she is introduced as this insecure and good-natured teenager. after her confrontation with amity, willow is pushed to the back for a while. all we know about her at that time is that she's the supportive mom friend of the group. she builds her confidence after a while but she is still shown as a kind person who doesn't use force on someone else, unless necessary.

but with hunter? willow is suddenly not just confident but also dominant and forceful. she basically snatches him from the sky and drags him to the ground, just to invite him to her flyer derby team. hunter is practically terrified at this point, but it's played off as a fun cute-meet. later, when hunter wants to leave the team for understandable reasons, instead of respecting his wishes, willow once again forces him to join her again.

i wouldn't call willow toxic or abusive, because she isn't. but i would say that she didn't respect hunter's boundaries in the slightest. she doesn't treat anyone else the way she treats hunter. she's not exactly mean to him but she also does not seem to respect him as an individual. again, she is written wildly out of character just so that she could fulfil the role of the “powerful girlboss” in the relationship. and it doesn't help that a dominant and forceful figure is the last thing hunter needs, considering how he was controlled and abused by his uncle his whole life.

3. Equality

it is my opinion that in a relationship, both individuals should play an important role. and they should balance each other out, instead of clashing with each other. it doesn't necessarily have to be an “opposites attract” situation, they just need to have qualities that brings a balance to the relationship.

in sokka's and suki's relationship, we've already established that suki is the brawn. she's the trained warrior and her agility, skill and speed are her strengths. sokka, on the other hand, is the brains. suki is still a rational and smart person but sokka is the strategist, the “idea guy”.

here, there's a balance. neither sokka nor suki are weak or incompetent, they're just skilled in different areas.

but when it comes to huntlow, willow is the brawn while hunter.. does close to nothing. after meeting willow, he's basically useless. the most impactful thing he does is stand up against belos in “Thanks to Them” and rescue willow from a short fall in the next episode. otherwise, he is mostly pushed to the back despite, again, having a personality and his own strengths prior to meeting willow. the problem here isn't that hunter shouldn't be weak or vulnerable, but rather that he is forced into the damsel role when it goes against his original character.

4. Screentime, interaction and development

one thing that huntlow and sukka had in common is neither ship had too much screentime together. suki wasn't officially part of the gaang until s3 and before that, she just gets two interactions with sokka. but these interactions were used to their fullest potential.

when they first meet each other, sokka and suki do not get along well. sokka was convinced that women aren't good warriors and his pride is hurt by the fact that suki is stronger than him, while suki is understandably put off by sokka's misogynistic and condescending attitude. after he tries to teach her how to fight and is consequently defeated by her, sokka rethinks his worldview. he goes back to suki and asks her to teach him how to fight, apologizing and admitting his mistake. suki agrees to teach him and through this, they bond. it is revealed at the end of the episode that both sokka and suki may or may not have a thing for each other. afterwards, sokka has to leave and suki has to stay behind.

their next meeting is a lot more brief but even here, we see a clear demonstration of their dynamic. sokka is overjoyed to see suki but he still hasn't moved on from yue, so when suki confesses to him and tries to initiate a kiss, sokka rejects her. suki apologizes to him later for what happened, and sokka kisses her as a confirmation that he has now moved on and likes her back. we see a clear respect of boundaries and personal choices from both sides.

finally, after suki is captured by azula, sokka frees her and they are reunited again until the end. at this point, they're basically a couple. there's no more awkward blushing or stuttering; they're just a pair of teenagers who are in love with each other. they have a bit of playful banter and they're very casual and comfortable around each other.

suki was originally supposed to be a one-time character so it's incredible that they pulled off on the best ships in atla with her and sokka. their chemistry was undeniable from the beginning, and the writers knew how to expand on it.

now let's come to huntlow. hunter and willow meet each other for the first time in the s2b episode ‘Any Sport in a Storm��. willow is looking for candidates to join her flyer derby team and she sees hunter flying on his palisman. completely unprovoked, the willow who normally never attacked or forced something on people for no reason, decides that the best way to scout this random guy she doesn't know is by encasing him in vines and dragging him to the ground, destroying the concrete in the process. this may have been portrayed as something of a slapstick comedy, but that kind of humor never stuck with me.

after willow explains herself to hunter, he agrees to join her team, thinking it would be an easy way to recruit students into the emperor's coven. fast forward, they get a few members to their group.

hunter notices that all of these members are visibly slacking off and gets discouraged. he turns to leave and willow stops him in his tracks. when she tells him to give them a chance, hunter ‘opens up’ to her a little, by telling her that he had to earn chances, especially as a “half a witch”. this comes out of nowhere because we never see hunter being referred to as half a witch by anyone prior to this. there were certainly characters who disliked him, like lilith and kikimora, but they called him names like “golden brat”. in fact, it's not even clear if anyone other than hunter and belos knows that he has no magic. the whole half a witch line was added so that hunter and willow would have something in common.

willow, instead of reasoning with hunter or respecting his choice to leave, drags him to the ground once again and seemingly teleports him back to the flyer derby team. while this may not have been done with malicious intent, it was still another instance of willow invading hunter's boundaries and forcing him to do something.

hunter is convinced that the team is, in fact, competent. he plays the game with them and has fun doing it. after getting the team captured to join the emperor's coven and saving them from darius, the episode ends with darius turning out to be the good guy and hunter getting a penstagram (or whatever they call it, i forgot).

after this, the huntlow scenes are very scarce. we barely see them interact, especially not alone with each other. in the next episode, we see willow standing up for hunter and hunter blushing and recognizing that the fake willow isn't willow. while this would be sweet for an already established couple, since hunter and willow barely had a bond at this point, it just comes off as hunter being observant. which is somewhat in character for him.

afterwards, there's just a sprinkle of this ship, most of it consisting of hunter being shy and nervous around willow. and willow treating him like she treats everyone else. there's no sign of willow liking hunter back until literally the episode before the finale. where, instead of focusing on hunter's recent trauma with being possessed by his abusive parent and losing his best friend, the show decides to focus on willow's issues instead. of course willow deserves her own arc, but she already got it back in s1. there was no reason to give her ANOTHER issue to work on, just so that hunter can comfort her and give her a reason to like him back.

overall, it was really forced and these two characters never had the kind of natural chemistry that sokka and suki did. their interactions were either awkward or surface-level wholesome. we get exactly two (2) episodes where they interact properly and even that isn't done well. it just feels like these characters were pushed into a ship dynamic that they didn't naturally fit into.

[polygnosticu]

Hi! l saw your comments in a post you were saying something like how Luz abandoned the others. l was wondering your thoughts on this and especially about the relationship between Lumity.

My thoughts are that Luz isn't the character that her stans want her to be. She's not a good person.

In Thanks to Them Luz was shown being prepared to abandon her Hexside friends as well as the entire Demon Realm to their fates at the hands of Belos and the Collector. She had made this decision without discussing it with any of them with the intention of not telling them until the last possible second when they couldn't do anything about it. The only thing that saved everybody was Camila's intervention.

This was an unconscionable act of cruelty on Luz' part and proves a hypothesis I had about Luz from her first appearance. Luz never took the Boiling Isles and the people who live there seriously. She treated the place like her own personal fantasyland and the people who lived there as NPCs in her self insert fan fic. We can see this in how Luz based all of her decisions there in reference to Azura. Her only interest in Amity was how she served as Hecate to her Azura and wanted to befriend her on that basis rather than learn anything about her as a person.

She interfered with Willow's life and violated her boundaries trying to fit Willow into her Azura fantasy model. In both Understanding Willow and Wing it Like Witches Willow asked Luz not to interfere with her decisions on how she handled her problems. In both cases Luz ignored Willow in favor of her Azura fantasy and Willow suffered as a result. After Luz did this a second time Willow walked away from the friendship. Luz had to work her butt off to earn back Willow's trust and friendship.

Luz was fine with playing in the Boiling Isles as long as it was fun and things were going her way. When Belos and the Collector showed up and things started getting serious and people started getting hurt Luz turned her back on the place and ran. She was prepared to abandon the entire enterprise because she never saw the Boiling Isles as a real place with real people and real problems.

Lumity isn't a relationship. It's a mutual crush between two fourteen year old children. They are not in love with each other because they are both too young and too emotionally damaged to even know what that means. Prior to Lumity neither Luz nor Amity has even had a successful friendship with anyone much less a full romantic commitment yet stans want to see Lumity as this perfect relationship that will last the two of them to the grave.

Luz is crushing on Amity and does not take her seriously. Luz is fine with the fun parts of crushing on Amity but when things get serious Luz is actively cruel to Amity. Luz lies to Amity repeatedly even though Amity knows Luz is lying to her and has asked her to stop. Luz didn't stop. Luz emotionally abandons Amity and seeks comfort in Hunter in whom she confides her secrets rather than Amity. In real life this behavior would be considered emotional abuse.

Amity has become codependent on Luz. Amity has given up every other aspect of her life to become Luz' awesome girlfriend. Amity no longer even challenges Luz the way she did in Lost in Language and Adventures in the Elements. When Eda did these things to Raine, Raine walked away from the relationship. Raine loved Eda but wouldn't tolerate Eda lying to them. Willow walked away from Luz when Luz violated her boundaries. Twice. Amity doesn't walk away from Luz despite being obviously hurt by Luz' lies. She is in a complete state of codependency on Luz. We've seen that other people don't tolerate this behavior from Luz. Amity does.

So these are my thoughts. If you have any questions or thoughts of your own to contribute, by all means feel free.

[erollhitchens]

While I do love this show I think its kinda disappointing how the writers would just give major injuries to people and not actually explore it at all.

( I just wanna be clear right off the bat I am a fan of this show this isn't a hate post or anything but these certain writing choices did kinda leave a bad taste in my mouth hence why I made this post )

I'm mainly talking about Eda Hunter and Raine

Eda loses an arm and it isn't really explored at all and Hunter and Raine end up with severe scarring over the faces and bodies yet this is only used for cheap in the moment types of storytelling rather than anything that actually gets explored

maybe to help dive into how the characters feel over these traumatic events but no they are basically just used for different character designs and that's it, which is disappointing tbh and feels pretty shallow of the writers.

also there's Luz's tiny eyebrow scar which kinda baffles me tbh as its there its a design change the animators had to remember

but its so tiny and meaningless it may as well not be there and again it doesn't serve a purpose

I could understand if Luz had a more noticeable scar that maybe served to remind her of helping Belos and tied into her depression at the start of season 3 but eventually she learned to not see it as a shameful reminder of her guilt over belos.

or something like that but that isn't really what happened so well its pretty pointless as well.

like I said it just feels a little cheap giving your characters major injuries that could effect you for life realistically both physically and psychologically only to not actually have them mean anything

Not using them to explore your characters feelings more in depth or something like that, like Hunter's scars could have been used to represent some sorta ptsd over flapjacks death in the episodes afterwards or something

maybe if he kept getting reminded of belos and his control over him or that dreadful night due to the scars triggering flashbacks and it could have tied in to him learning to move past it

and Eda was literally given a life changing disability they could have explored this even a tiny bit in season 3

maybe had her have some sorta arc around wondering if she'd still be able to be the same carefree living life on the edge type of person who she was before and eventually realising it doesn't really matter to who she is or how she sees herself overall

but not doing anything with these things and just having them for cheap shock value and character design changes just rubs me the wrong way tbh

and it kinda bugs me how this fandom lets the writers off the hook for these writing choices so easily.

as these things are kinda the definition of badly done angst in my opinion since they exist solely to get a sad or shocked reaction out of the viewers in the moment

but they don't actually serve a purpose in exploring the characters more and helping their overall arcs like I said I love this show but this aspect I find very disappointing tbh.

[bobbydagen24]

tbh I really don't think Raine should have been present for Belos's death.

This is something I've been thinking about more recently but why have Raine there? like writing wise

a lot of people try to claim that the reason for other characters not being present for Belos's death or at least not getting a final scene with him beforehand ( cough Hunter cough )

is that the scene was meant to be about our main three and keeping the focus on just them again like it was at the start of the show.

but that's kinda contradicted by the fact that Raine is also there now I love Raine don't get me wrong but they have no real business being there as they have no real emotional connection to Belos

and they aren't one of our main characters, and also what's with them being a ruthless killer all of a sudden?

does no one else find that out of character? kind caring sensitive shy but baddass and noble Rain is suddenly stomping a dying man to death while gleefully remarking on how satisfying it was.

that just seemed out of left field tbh.

makes perfect sense for Eda's character she was a criminal who lived on the run for ages and existed in a eat or be eaten type of world ( In most cases literally lol )

and same with little King who she raised but that never really seemed to be who Raine was at least not in my opinion.

so it just makes little sense to me tbh writing wise to have Raine present for such an important moment over other characters who it would make more sense for in terms of storytelling

like I said Hunter could have been given a final moment with Belos even if he wasn't present for his death as that would probably mess him up even more

or Darius could have showed up since Belos literally killed his mentor so him taking part in his death would make a bit more sense given the emotional connection.

or Lilith given the emperor used her for ages promising to cure her sister but secretly never planning to

or the collector who Belos lied to and used for countless years and tried to murder even after he forgave him.

or ya know Raine could just not be there and the scene could actually just be about our main three like people try and claim it is

but having them there over other characters who would make way more sense writing wise just feels wrong and kinda annoying tbh.

[defendingtheowlhouse]

ive seen a few toh criticisms and some may be more understandable than others, but the whole "luz brought snakes and fireworks to school!! shes dangerous and should be treated as an active threat to the very fabric of society!!! !!1!!!" always makes me roll my eyes. its not that serious. the scene is literally just there to establish character- specifically that luz might be a little impulsive doesnt think of consequenses, but ultimately just wants to express herself and find people who unserstand her. shes not actively malicious or anything. anyways luz is one of my certified blorbos and this turned out way longer than i was planning. just to say its not that deep

Indeed!

[autistic-ben-tennyson]

Why is it that fandoms that are based around inclusive or wholesome content turn out to be toxic AF? I’ve seen this with so many children’s fandoms like SU, TOH, Jedi apologist etc where people become extremely hateful for disagreeing. Meanwhile, the least toxic fandom I’ve been in is the Shinji/Rei fandom on discord and Reddit despite the pairing’s controversial nature. Possibly because the people there are mature adults who understand nuance. This is not to give a free pass to dudebros who watch Family Guy and South Park but why is it always the “progressive” fandoms that are the most toxic and puritanical?

[mdhwrites]

The Mis-Projections of Odalia

Odalia's fanon versus canon characterizations are fascinating to me because at every turn, the fandom takes what is actually a reasonable trait of Odalia and cranks it up to 11, even to the point where it's entirely incongruent with both the facts and the spirit of the show. Consider this a continuation of me questioning how bad a parent Odalia is. I will also say upfront here that I have point, beyond just bashing fandom's ability to remember what the show is, for why this matters but I need to get through the rest first.

So, how does the fandom, or most of them at least, characterize Odalia? Well, they make it that she is the root of all evil, abusive, racist, classist, doesn't care about anyone or anything but herself and is a capitalist who only ever sells snake oils and lies.

In the show... She's very few of these things and many of the rest are actually her being a part of the Isle's culture. Not its nebulous culture that's bad but like the ONE element of its culture that is ever consistent. We'll get to that though.

Is she evil? Honestly, by the metrics of the show, not really. She isn't an slaver like the publishing lizard. She doesn't kill people just for fun like the bounty hunters. She doesn't scam people (we'll get back to that) like Tibbles. She isn't entirely good mind you, she's scrupulous and is willing to break her own beliefs when emotions run high but compared to like ALL the other villains in TOH, she's weirdly tame. Now mind you, the villains of TOH are all charicatures based out of the 90s so the bar is ROCK FUCKING BOTTOM but rather than fantasy levels of evil, Odalia is boringly modern and constrained. Put her in the human realm and literally nothing of what she does changes, including making a killer robot. She is not the worst person on the Isles though.

How about being a bigot of any sort? Well, Dana is correct that as far as we see, Belos is the only bigot on the Isles. The closest that ever comes to it otherwise is Boscha scribbling Round Ears on Luz which as far as bigotry goes is the equivalent of calling a kid with glasses four eyes. No, instead, she is, like all of the Isles, merit based in how she treats people. Period. No ifs ands or buts.

I say this so firmly because people don't seem to understand that. Boscha is liked because she is strong and gets results. Amity was popular because she was top of her class and got results. Willow was disliked not because of any racial, religious, gender, etc. element, it was ENTIRELY from the fact that she fucked around, caused trouble and was entirely unskilled. By her own society, young Willow was an abject failure. She wouldn't listen to rules, even simple ones like 'go to class' in the flashback we see with Amity, and her skill with magic was genuinely abysmal until she swapped courses at which point she excelled and became popular.

So, who does Odalia dislike? Gus, Willow and Luz. One of these fuckers doesn't want to follow what he's a savant at and instead wants to chase cryptids by their societies standards, and also got his ass put into detention before breaking detention to get out, the next already had a history of fucking around and is associated with two troublemakers already meaning she is still trouble, and the third... The third is the apprentice to the OWL LADY. She practices WILD MAGIC. Everything about Luz is illegal WITHOUT getting into all the times Luz has broken the law, rules and just general common sense. By a meritocracy, what the Isles is, these three are the bottom of the barrel. It'd be like saying a parent was unreasonable for not wanting their kid to hang out with the sixteen year old drug dealer behind their school and skipping class to do so. She's pretty fucking valid honestly for not wanting Amity to associate with these people.

Is she abusive? This one is more up in the air but besides Escaping Expulsion, we never see consequences for disobeying her, minus when her kids break the law and try to sabotage their own family in Clouds on the Horizon for which they're ONLY GROUNDED instead of way worse. We also never really see her kids worry about punishment outside of, again, Escaping Expulsion where the twins mention not telling mom they're helping but also they don't try to stop Amity out of fear for her own safety. You know, like people who are used to strict retaliation for mistakes should be. Amity quits the covens and seems to have literally no repercussions from that. She can also just keep telling her mom to go fuck off about her hair. This is not the attitude of an abused child. Oh and on the side of Odalia gives zero shits about her family, first I'm going to say I'm entirely ignoring Clouds on the Horizon's bullshit of "I knew about Belos' plan" because there's no reason for her to have been told that, no need for her to have been told that and is such a needless escalation of her character being cartoonishly evil, ratcheting back into being at home with the rest of the villains of TOH, that it it is just a transcendentally bad piece of writing that should only be mocked. HOWEVER. The first time we literally ever hear about Odalia is a moment of kindness and care. She sends the twins to bring Amity her lunch to make sure she eats. That's... Caring. She didn't send them to scold her or punished her by not letting her eat, she sent her troublemaking twins to the library to feed her and probably in hopes that the twins might study a bit. That's a fine mom move. Without more that is clearly abuse, I see it as neutral at worst. The necklace is the same way. It's more secretive than sending her daughter texts but they all have cellphones, she can just text her and that's really all she ever does with the necklace. She never actually controls Amity with it. Without more to sustain allegations of abuse, I don't see it as anything particularly nasty.

And finally: Is she a scammer? I won't say she isn't a capitalist but TOH never tears down the whole economy and the Isles appears to be by volume 80% scammers or criminals of some sort when it comes to their shopkeeps so capitalism is still absolutely a thing. Is Odalia one of these though? No. The worst she does is exaggeration and that's just marketing. It's not false advertising, it's just painting your product the best you can. She never says the abomaton can take down an Emperor's Coven guard so a trained, albeit young but also top of her class, abomination witch being able to take down the abomaton 1.0? Yeah. that's not lying. It still would do a plenty good job protecting your home and kids from things most people want out of their home defense systems like burglars. It also factually can do everything else Odalia promised. We're shown that. Whether it does it well is up for debate but it DOES do everything legitimately with Amity up until she's supposed to feign being in danger which like... Did you want her to be actually in danger? Actually have her life at risk? Because that would be irresponsible especially to do to your OWN DAUGHTER. She only removes essentially the safety constraints once it's someone she gives no shits about and sees gain in their removal (and also is pissed.) That's not scamming people, that's a product demonstration. It was still able to grab Amity and lift her in the air with one arm, showing its strength. Also, everything else Odalia shows off as Blight Industry tech is legit, much to Luz's detriment.

SO. As you can see, the fandom is essentially dead wrong when it comes to Odalia. They took kernals of truth, that she's a strict mom, capitalist, judgemental, etc. and blew them up to be as bad as they could be. Why did they do this though? Why is this even important?

Well, it's because the show WANTS you to take her that far. Amity doesn't actually do much to redeem herself, especially to those she wrongs. She NEVER does anything but a bare minimum apology to Willow for YEARS of bullying that Odalia didn't ask her to do. Odalia just asked her to stop being friends with Willow. But hey, since all Amity does is an apology, that Willow only kind of accepts, literally stating they're not friends still... What do you do about that? Standing up to Boscha is for Luz after all. Standing up to her mom is for Luz. She never even bashes the ideologies she used to have to show her change, just that she was nebulously wrong but she's better now without any real sacrifice or meaningful acts of redemption. So... As a viewer, what the fuck do you do with that?

Edit: Someone pointed out that she doesn't actually apologize. She does say she was wrong when she was younger which is actually good for redemption BUUUUUT she claims she'll make Boscha and everyone else stop bullying Willow. Then Winging it Like Witches happens where Amity doesn't give a fuck about what Boscha is doing until it is focus fired on Luz making her whole speech there just a bold faced lie. Good job Amity.

Well, you do what the show did and scapegoat people. Why is it okay that Amity abandons her friends like she did Willow so many years ago? Because they're evil and bad people, or Boscha is at least, despite Boscha doing nothing Amity hasn't already in the show. But she was only like that because of her mom. Her awful, abusive, controlling, classist...

Wait a second. Do you dear reader see the problem?

This is why the projection is required. TOH actually is really bad at redemption arcs, namely that it doesn't know what redemption means besides no longer being a dick, and so you actually no way to forgive the characters for what they did by what they do. As such, you need excuses. The people the fandom hates the most are usually those scapegoats, especially for Amity. Why is Boscha worse than Belos when all she is is a bully? Because people claim she was the reason Amity was a bully and shift the fact that Amity was Willow's main bully to Boscha, despite all evidence to the contrary. Why do they make Odalia worse than all other villains in media combined? Because otherwise, their blorbo, the lesbian that helped make TOH as popular as it was, the one who was endlessly praised for having a transcendentally written character arc... Is never redeemed nor actually has much of an arc or depth to her character. She NEEDS to have all these serious elements put upon her through her mom or else... She's just a mean girl who fell in love and decided to care about one person and be a LITTLE better to other people. Remember, at the point of Labyrinth Runners, an entire season after Understanding Willow, Amity does not recognize that she was wrong that Willow is weak despite Willow's entire character for the past season being defined by how overpowered she. Amity very clearly has not been paying attention or caring about anyone about Luz and that's not what a good person does? You care because caring is the correct thing to do.

And I care because I would like her to be written better. I would like her to be more than what she was. I would like the whole show to be. But... Odalia isn't what you think she is and that matters because it means Amity isn't either. The show isn't either. See you next tale.

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I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

I also have an Amazon page for all of my original works in various forms of character focused romances from cute, teenage romance to erotica series of my past. I have an Ao3 for my fanfiction projects as well if that catches your fancy instead. If you want to hang out with me, I stream from time to time and love to chat with chat.

A Twitter you can follow too

And a Kofi if you like what I do and want to help out with the fact that disability doesn’t pay much.

[sidecharactersdomatter]

Compilation of future TOH critical analyses

1. Luz Noceda was my least favorite character and protagonist in western animation

2. Edalyn Clawthorne wasn’t really the best mentor

3. King’s wasted potential

4. Amity was handled inconsistently

5. Willow was handled inconsistently

6. Gus’ wasted potential

7. Hunter was handled inconsistently

8. Lilith’s seemingly non existent redemption arc

9. Belos’ wasted potential as TOH’s main antagonist

10. Raine Whispers was pointless

11. Vee was pointless

12. The Collector was pointless

13. Stringbean was pointless

14. Was TOH secretly anti masculine? (dropped but will be discussed in the future)

15. My issues with the Story, character development, world building, and main message (will be discussed in separate posts )

[psychicbarbarianinfluencer]

I wish for the future had used camila a bit more when it came to acting as a parent for the whole group ( mainly hunter and to a lesser extent willow ).

To be honest I very much dislike the way this episode went about hunter's grief and the way his friends acted about it

And I was thinking about this just earlier today but the second to last episode Really would have been a great opportunity for some good Camila and Hunter interactions ( yes I'm a hunter noceda person but that's besides the point lol )

as in the actual episode she seemed to mostly just let the kids run loose And didn't really act like she was the only adult of the group

like I said it would have been a nice chance to see her do some more proper parenting for the group mainly Hunter tbh lol.

and we also could have done with her properly talking to willow and gus as willow's little freak out after Hunter shut them down when they tried to talk to him about flapjack really was not helpful nor healthy.

and it really seemed like it would have been a good chance for Camila to step in and make sure willow and gus are actually doing okay

and also reassuring them that they can't just expect Hunt to instantly be okay or up to talking to them about this and they can't really take it personally like willow did in the episode

and of course just been a more supportive and warm comfort to Hunter regarding his grief in the episode since he didn't really get that in the actual episode ( or from belos at any point in the series )

as his friends kinda twisted it into making him have to support them because he didn't get over his grief quick enough which is just kinda weird writing tbh.

but anyway point is it really feels like for the future should have used Camila more as a parent to the whole group.

and just written the way people reacted to hunter's grief better to be honest.

[mr-damian-s-power]

Is it just me or could the Blight Twins be very easily written out? They don't feel like they NEEDED to exist in the story. They just feel like the long repertoire of characters in TOH who could've been condensed or scrapped entirely.

For one, I don't think much would've been lost if Amity were an only child. I think it would make all of the expectations levied on her more realistic. Amity's story could focus on her reconnecting with Alador and mending bridges between them, maybe even finding out that Odalia grew up in a similar situation to her and cycle of abuse'd those views on Amity. This is furthered by the fact that I don't think Odalia ever actually interacts with the Twins. Do we know what she thinks of them?

Secondly, I don't think they do much plot-wise! What's the most relevant thing they do? Steal Amity's diary! That can be very easily rewritten to Boscha stealing it to gain leverage over Amity. There, I've simply taken away their most important moment.

-

Thoughts?