#anti lilith

[hikaaa-bi]

i find it funny how people praise the owl house for breaking the trend of redeeming the villain when the show instead took the laziest path with dealing with their villain. i mean, i get it. not all villains need to be redeemed and sometimes, it's just fine to kill them off or defeat them. no character is irredeemable, but sometimes the point is that people refuse to change.

but what they did with belos was just lazy. he didn't need to be redeemed, sure, but his ending was way too anti-climactic. he was such a complex character to just be labelled as Pure Evil™ and killed off at the end. he didn't need to be redeemed, but he at least deserved to be acknowledged as the three-dimensional complex character that he is. he wasn't just a disney-esque villain who did everything for power and had no depth to his personality. he was a symbol of religious trauma and how it affects people. he was a horrible person but also a sympathetic one, because i can only imagine how harmful growing up in the puritan era would have been.

like i said before, the show being cancelled is not an excuse. i was so excited to see all the religious and spiritual themes in belos's past, and all the theories that fans were coming up with. hell, some fans did a better job of representing belos than the show ever did. i just feel like it was a whole bag of lost potential. belos could have been one of the most insanely complex and well-written villains but the creators of the owl house wants to impress its fans, so they pull a "haha we're not like other shows because we can't sympathize with the villain!" newsflash: you don't need to redeem the villain in order to portray them as sympathetic. azula from avatar and simon from infinity train are good examples of sympathetic villains/antagonists who don't get redeemed.

it's even more ridiculous considering how rushed and badly written lilith's arc was, even though she cursed her sister, tried to kill a literal child, and almost got her sister turned to stone. you'd think if the show despises redemptions so much, they wouldn't give lilith a lazy and rushed redemption arc like that, only to render her useless for the rest of the show.

[averysherwood]

Do you think Lilith's redemption was non-existent? I do, and I wish we got one. Fans say it was because of the shortening, but I say no, since Lilith's redemption wasn't really focused on before the show was announced to be shortened. If they tried to focus on it a bit in the earlier episodes, and then it could have still focused on it later on in the season since there is still some time that could be devoted to it. They could have finished it if they prioritized what matters.

Her redemption was totally rushed and just felt undeserved, and shortening isn't the reason. She didn't only work for Belos, she literally made Eda disabled just because she wanted to win (it wasn't even her only chance to get to the coven, she could try again). The lack of attention from the parents is not an excuse.

I don't say that she's irredeemable, but we had to get more time with unforgiven Lilith. We had to see Eda feelings betrayed by her own sister. We had to see Lilith working on gaining trust again, on showing that she's truly trying to fix the harm that she caused, and not just went over to their side because she no longer has a choice.

[western-magical-girl-confessions]

“I really dislike Lillith from toh. A lot of people hate Catra for being "toxic", and then they say LILLITH is their fave. I haven't fully watched toh, so maybe I don't have the whole story, but she cursed her own sister?? And lied about it?? And let Eda suffer for years with a crippling magic disability??? She didn't say a WORD and let her mother nearly go crazy trying to find a cure for it while living her best life and getting power??? She was forgiven waaaaay to easily in my opinion.”

[technicallydelightfulpenguin]

I redesigned, rewrited and fixed Angel Dust to be a drug addicted mafia guy, not a shitty homossexual stereotyped guy who is dramatic af.

🧍‍♀️ I hate it here (CW-mentions of abuse & other forms of abuse)

That youtooz description for Angel Dust is absolutely vile. Literally poking fun at his abusive situation & I saw that a lot of comments saying "WeLL ThAts tHe PloT".

Yeah the plot was sexual abuse & here's a "quirky" box description reiterating Angel's very soul is owned by Valentino his abuser, has no agency or choice to "say no matter how many", how many what. How many times he's assaulted at work, how many times he wants to say no to sex scenes & just let's whatever happen to him, how many times Valentino sexually abuses him.

Also for the love of all above, its a really glaring issue how many MINORS in this fandom stan Valentino & find Angel Dust & extent his "relationship" with Valentino, again is a relationship of physical abuse, mental abuse & sexual abuse... alluring, fetishising it & all focus is on the abuser, Valentino.

Like this user (DO NOT IF YOU FIND THEM HARRASS THEM they're a minor & I censored them for good reason DO NOT!)

Like these tweets speak for themselves. They have a level of sympathy for Angel Dust, but its in a fetishistic way. "Oh no poor Angie how crule, but also Valentino...yippee". All focus is really on Valentino or brought back to him.

I don't blame this user in all extent. Yes what they're doing is vile but what does one expect when Angel Dust's trauma was storyboarded by Raphielle who has a rape ship between Angel and Valentino, a rape fetish aswell (irl its cnc in their work its not & that fetish got showcased on a show supposedly showing the trauma of a victim of sexual abuse). Vivienne is buddy-budy with him, gave her blessing for him specifically to storyboard Angel's abuse in the music sequence.

It was showcased as a fetish & people are starting to fetish it, that was the whole point.

And its continuing like in this youtooz figure. I'm sickened, I hate it here.

[b0tster]

tumblr as a whole has been more outright actively aggressive towards me being a vegan than all other social media platforms combined and it kinda fucking sucks

[hippityhoppityyourenowmyproperty]

I really dislike the fact they made Adam a sexist douchebag who demanded to have control over Lilith. It paints sexism as an innate, hereditary quality that men "can't help" but adapt.

If you really wanted to critizise christianity, focusing on how it teaches mysoginy to its followers could have been interesting. Children don't just come up with these concepts; they're taught by adults and society.

Viv could have written about how god taught Adam about hierachy and how he needed to be in charge because as a man, he was supposedly closer to god's true image than Lilith, a woman. How god had rigid ideas about who should be in charge because of his own arrogance, and how he tried to make women subservient to men because equality threatened his heavenly hierachies.

Of course he was against Adam and Eve eating the apple. It gave them the self- awareness and knowledge to question his ideas and reject him.

Hazbin could have been so interesting, but instead, Viv went with the "men are pigs, they're born like that and it's in their nature" route that only ends up affirming sexist believes.

[showtoonzfan]

Bro we finally got to see Lilith’s card and we don’t even get to see her face come ONNN.

Viv you already spoiled so much regarding the show, might as well show off Lilith, like…why is she keeping her in the shadows so much? Also I would say it’s too early but I think this card is borderline proof that she’s a villain, they’re making it so obvious lol like there is no reason why we’re going THIS long without seeing or knowing anything about her while Lucifer gets all the attention and is going to be painted in a more sympathetic light.

It legit pisses me off cause in the pilot they indicate Charlie actually had a close relationship with her mom considering she was the one who got called by her daughter for advice, but from what we’ve seen Charlie’s going to be interacting with her dad in the show a lot while Lilith will probably get no more than a brief mention or a cameo. Viv is keeping her in the shadows for a reason, she’s 100% a villain and ngl I’m starting to believe the “Lilith separated with Lucifer because he wasn’t evil anymore”- allegation.

And again, I wouldn’t have a problem with Lilith being a villain had we not known that Viv is aiming for Lucifer to be “not that bad he’s just uwu goofy” and sympathetic. It’s once again biased/favoritism writing and I really don’t want another Stolas and Stella situation. Obviously this is mostly speculation and guesses, I’ll wait and see till the show comes out but I am 100% expecting more misogynistic and biased writing.

[princess-charlie-of-hell]

Me: Everyone should be allowed to have their own opinion in fandoms even if I don't personally agree with it

Someone: Alastor would be a better partner to Lucifer and parent to Charlie than Lilith!

Me:

I don't understand how people can say that. I can understand seeing Lilith as a bad parent and partner because she left 7 years ago for heaven despite me hoping that she has a good reason but acting like Alastor is better than her in comparison?

He straight up is trying to manipulate Charlie for his personal gains that doesn't sounds like something a good father would do.

And the only interaction Lucifer and Alastor had were them fighting which also doesn't sound like a healthy couple thing to do

Also We still don't know enough from Lilith actually to judge her character and if she is a good or bad person but from what we have seen and heard from her doesn't sound like a terrible person

And If we compare the painting of the goetia family to the Morningstar family we can see a clear difference between the families

Where Stella looks like she wants to kill Stolas on the spot and doesn't even touch Octavia from what I can see , Lilith looks happy with her family and has both Charlie and Lucifer in her arms.

Despite it just could be a red hering to make the reveal of bad guy Lilith even more shocking, right now we just can make just Theories about Lilith being a abusive person and don't really have a proof except that she left to be in heaven for selfish or selfless

And even if it turns out that Lilith is a terrible person, that doesn't erase the fact that Alastor is a bad person himself

[lambmotifz]

thinking about how the original plan (had the writers strike not taken place) was for sam to use his powers and save dean from his deal & castiel wasn’t even supposed to be in the show because eric kripke did not intend to include angels…

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

hunter and luz: talk about belos and the magic system, open up to each other about their trauma and fears, rescue each other from dire circumstances

hunter and amity: relate to each other as abused children and perfectionists who are afraid of letting people down

hunter and gus: relate to each other’s experiences of being used by people and helps calm each other down in a moment of distress, also finds a common middle ground with a piece of media they both enjoy

hunter and willow, the literal love interests: uhhh both of them are considered half a witch because one of them was a late bloomer and the other is literally disabled?

[felicjana050896]

A few words about Charlastor

Today I saw this post:

(Sorry, I can't post the link, Twitter doesn't want to work on my computer today :\ )

I will quote it here because it made me think again:

Currently, the closest person to Charlie is Vaggie, while Alastor invades her space, Vaggie and Alastor are opposed to each other, Vaggie wants to run a hotel for Charlie (her whole life is based on Charlie...), while Alastor has his own reasons (more on which later we don't fully know) and the two are portrayed as opposing forces pulling Charlie, Vaggie in one direction and Alastor in the other. Charlie's relationship with Alastor will deepen in future seasons (which the author wrote about, that Alastor and Charlie are the main characters of HH and what we see after the pilot), thus distancing it from Vaggie, which we see already in the first season (and what I wrote posts about ), that Charlie's relationship with Vaggie will surely deteriorate as it goes on, their quarrel over Vaggie's lie was, in my opinion, just the first glitch in their relationship (although not very well written in my opinion anyway), at some point in the story Charlie will had to choose between Vaggie and Alastor (and Niffty):

And considering the other screenshots, they are either forshadowings only to the fact that in future seasons Charlie will be getting closer to Alastor and away from Vaggie, or they may generally herald Alastor's victory over Vaggie, it depends, they are definitely confirmation that the further the seasons, the more Charlostor's content we will have than Chaggie's, the only question is which one will be the endgame?

Alastor stealing Charlie:

Significant bed scene, Vaggie wakes up without Charlie, alone, and Charlie is later in bed with Alastor on a heart-shaped pillow:

Besides, I read about Zoophobia and old sketches of Alastor and Autumn, and in my opinion Autumn reminds me a bit of Charlie... but in order.... First, let's go to Roo or Eve (if you prefer), well, I saw one Tik Tok and I definitely agree with it:

Charlie actually resembles Eve much more than Lilith, it always surprised me that Charlie has more father-like features both in appearance and character, and has none of Lilith's (especially when it comes to her ahem... physical qualities...), but I thought they just made her a typical "daddy's girl" and that's it... but if Eve is Charlie's mother and not Lilith..., we still had Lucifer's comment that he stole from Adam both wives, both Lilith and Eve, and although he married Lilith, he probably slept with Eve..., then the only question arises: why did Lilith decide to raise a child that was not her own?

Roo (Eve):

Charlie:

Lilith:

Lucifer:

Charlie and Eve (Roo) have exactly the same nose, the same lines under their eyes (Charlie in his demonic form has them) and the body sharp is the same, Lucifer by the way does not have a nose (:D), Lilith has a completely different nose, only Eve's nose matches Charlie's....

Moving on, we know that Alastor made a deal with someone, many people speculate that he made it with Lilith, but there are also people who believe that with Roo and I, although I also considered Lilith at the beginning, it was thrown in our faces this 7-year break (that Lilith has not been in Hell for 7 years and Alastor disappeared for 7 years), seems too obvious..., moreover, we know that Lilith had a contract with Adam (end of episode 8), and Adam did not know Alastor, so how could Alastor have an agreement with Lilith and be with her for these 7 years in heaven, if Adam didn't know him at all..., while Roo..., and this is where the issue of Zoophobia begins, i.e. Viv's first idea, where most of the HH characters came from:

In Zoophobia we had the so-called KayCee, i.e. chaos itself and the main antagonist, interestingly KayCee liked apples (a reference to Eve and her picking an apple from the Garden of Eden, the first sin?):

KayCee had white hair, horns, and the original Alastor was in love with her:

So KayCee is nothing other than the prototype of Eve.

Moving on, the original Alastor was also obsessed with Autumn, the character of Zoophobia, a blonde deer:

Autumn is a very helpful and good-hearted character and: ,,Although outwardly he appears mature and rational, in reality he is extremely insecure, suffering from low self-esteem. Autumn continues to seek recognition and thanks from others for a little help from him, showing that he needs the appreciation of others. Autumn is also very sensitive and short-tempered: in the webcomic, when Rusty teases him about the little antlers, Autumn explodes in anger and violently scolds him."

Doesn't this in some way resemble the description of Charlie..., a girl with a good heart, wanting to help everyone, and also sometimes quick-tempered (when, for example, heaven rejects her or when Susan pisses her off :D )

So we have Eve, who used to be KayCee, and Charlie, who has a lot of Autumn in her, and if it turns out that Charlie is actually Eve's daughter, Charlie will be a combination of KayCee and Autumn, considering her appearance and character traits are taken from both, two characters that the original Alastor was crazy about ;)

And finally, some shots of Charlie and Alastor:

And remember about Niffty and KeeKee, they are very important, after all they are in the HH logo :)

KeeKee, a pet belonging to Charlie and Niffty, Alastor's ,,pet" ;)

Sorry for the long post again, but I just can't keep it short :D

Thank you for reading and have a nice day, evening or night :)

[hikaaa-bi]

can we talk about how useless lilith is to the plot? she's introduced as this really mysterious antagonist with a complicated relationship with one of our heroes. but then, she's shown to be incompetent, impatient and immature in a bunch of episodes where she tries to capture eda. she's portrayed almost as pathetic as kikimora sometimes.

but then she captures luz and we find out the truth about her. how she cursed her sister in order to get into the emperor's coven and how she's trying to fix her mistake by doing the wrong thing. okay, now her character is getting more interesting. maybe we can see how hard she has to work to right her wrongs and get forgiven and— nope. we're just gonna have her share eda's curse and now everyone loves her. she's forgiven instantaneously.

and after that? she's mostly just… there. either as a comic relief or as emotional support for the other characters. “she went back in time and punched belos!” anyone could have done that. there were multiple other characters in the show who knew a lot about the boiling isles and could have helped luz with time traveling. there were multiple other characters in the show who wouldn't have hesitated to deck philip in the face. lilith could have easily been replaced by any other character in the show.

besides, the punch didn't do much other than give belos a bump on his nose bridge and more of a reason to hate witches. it wasn't his driving force, he would have hated witches even if lilith hadn't punched him. he was already knee-deep in villainy at that point.

i just feel like lilith's character had a lot more potential. i feel like toh has a trend of turning all its redeemed characters into the same old "awkward loveable nerd" archetype. and it strips them of their entire personality. oh, amity was this stuck-up bully who was suffering from her mother's abuse? she got a haircut and she's just luz's cute awkward girlfriend now. personality? we don't know her. hunter was a trained soldier who spent years under the influence of his abusive uncle and recently found out that he was a clone made solely to replace his uncle's long-dead brother, and now has to deal with that life-shattering realization? nah, he's just willow's pathetic wet cat male wife now.

i just— i don't know, man. all these characters had potential. especially hunter. he was the most popular character in the show for a reason and it's not only because some viewers found him hot. it's because people could relate to him and also because his snarky and petty personality was a fun addition to the show. by the end of the series, none of these characters are themselves.

i love romantic subplots in shows but if a character has to change entirely in order to fit in a romantic narrative, maybe you're not doing it right. maybe those characters just don't belong together.

[diabolicphallus666]

[that-guy-in-the-chiton]

New Pandemonium au: Lilith.

Basically Adam’s twin.

The Almighty tried to play matchmaker with her and Adam but it didn’t work out. Though both felt (sibling-like) affection for each other and cared for one another, they were ultimately too similar in temperament and often quarrelled. Also the attraction just wasn’t there, so they went their separate ways.

After her expulsion from the garden, she lived near the Red Sea and had many children with spirits called the Lilitu. Adam and Eve occasionally visit her.

is cordial toward Lucifer, but otherwise doesn’t want much to do with him or his kingdom and views him as an arrogant fool.

Has a special place in her heart for birds; particularly owls.

[lime-bucket]

If in Hazbin Lucifer and Lilith had the same personality as in the myths Charlie would have "I'm the most important person in the world. You should worshipped me. I'm the best." for a dad and "Game is game" for a mom.

& we would have loved that instead of "akshually i gave the apple to eve so shell get free will🤓☝" lucifer & "unimaginative version of jessica rabbit" lilith

Real talk maybe charlies motivations fr wanting the better fr her ppl wouldve been stronger/more convincing if she has seen how shit her parents r as individuals/rulers

[princess-charlie-of-hell]

Tw: mention of r*pe and abusive relationships

I never will understand why People write a fic with Evil and Abusive!Lilith only for it to be Adamsapple or Radioapple. Especially if it is tagged as Lucilith!

So many times when I search for Lucilith fics Lucilith is only used to paint Alastor or Adam in better light because they can not see Lucifer being mistreated by her.

Or I even saw a few fics where Lilith r*ped him and he got pregnant with Charlie as a result.

I mean I like Adam and Alastor as characters but they are terrible People. Alastor himself is abusive to Husk and a manipulator, Adam literally tried to kill Lucifer and is probably the Inventor of toxic masculinity.

So I can image neither of them to care about Lucifer if Lilith were abusive towards him. Maybe I can see Alastor caring a tiny bit because it could remind him of his own situation but even then I don't think he would care enough to help Lucifer.

And I generally am against Evil Lilith but honestly it could be Interesting if it is used right like give me Lilith who is a classy Disney villain with charm and great songs. Lilith who is the most cruel person in the whole show but cares deeply for her family. Lilith who tortures people while talking about the food her hubby made for her.