#the ashford tourney

[duchess-of-oldtown]

According to the way they adapted Fire and Blood in House of the Dragon, we can probably expect some changes in Dunk and Egg:

Dunk is actually the long lost son of Daemon Blackfyre and Dornish Daenerys Targaryen (y'know because EVERYONE has to have their parents explained)

Egg will not be loyal to Dunk, he'll be a total scumbag

Maekar DID kill Baelor on purpose.

Before Baelor dies he whispers that Egg should be King and Dunk must immediately be named a Kingsguard.

Aerion will commit like one actrocity and then get a redemption arc.

Bloodraven and Bittersteel are estranged lovers (this could work) and all this is a bitter divorce

Bloodraven gets his info by selling feet pics. The trees told him that's how Alicent did it.

Shiera Seastar DOES actually eat children and bathe in blood.

Daeron the Drunken will take so much fantasy cocaine/LSD that the whole thing was actually all an acid trip

Daemon II Blackfyre will not serve cunt or camp.

The Blackfyre Rebellion? All happened in one big miscommunication Trope.

The dragons aren't dead, they're actually just finding themselves in the wilderness, you know? They're just really getting into their earthy crunch side.

Maekar Targaryen will do nothing all season. Just serve face and say offensive shit

The Dornish will be an integral part of the season. You will only know about it because of Behind the Episode.

Valarr Targaryen is a socialist and that is why they killed him off.

The mastermind behind all the Targaryen deaths? Baby Walder Frey.

Who really stole the dragon egg at Whitewalls? Time Travelling Penny in disguise.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

The Hedge Knight graphic novel - could it work as a roadmap for HBO's A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms?

So, per reports, HBO's Dunk & Egg show is going to be 6 episodes. I've seen several people saying that's too long, it should be 4 episodes at most, a 2 hour movie at most, there will be too much filler, blah blah blah. Well let me tell you, that's not true!

In 2003, The Hedge Knight was adapted as a 6 issue comic book (later collected as a graphic novel), and I think its script, each issue ending in a cliffhanger or dun-dun-dunnn moment, would work perfectly for the show, and is very probably how they'll do it.

Potential spoilers under the cut, but first - is this not perfect casting and costuming? It so is.

Like I said, I think each issue could be the plot of each episode. So I'm just going to summarize these issues, I hope you've read the GN or the novella. (If not, go read it, go read all of Dunk & Egg, it's so good.)

#1 - Dunk buries Ser Arlan, decides to go to Ashford for the tourney, meets Egg and a weird drunk guy at an inn on the way, gets to Ashford, sets up camp in the forest (bathes naked in a stream), goes to the tourney field and sees Tanselle performing her puppet show, gets measured for armor he can't quite afford, gets back to his camp to find the weird little bald kid making dinner.

#2 - Dunk agrees Egg can be his squire, that night he sees the falling star, next morning goes to Ashford castle and gets told he needs to prove he's a knight to enter the tourney (or that Arlan was, since he says Arlan knighted him), meets Aerion (badly) but also the Kingsguard, sells his horse for armor money, talks to Tanselle and meets the Fossoways, then meets up with the young Dondarrion lord whose dad Arlan worked for and relates the House Dondarrion origin story (imagine them telling that via puppet imagery, ooh), gets told "yeah knowing that is no proof you're a knight, sucks to be you".

#3 - Dunk goes back to the castle, stumbles into Baelor and Maekar arguing about M's missing kids, Baelor remembers his epic joust with Arlan so yay Dunk can be in the tourney, Dunk and Egg talk to Tanselle about painting him a shield, they watch the opening of the tourney (lots of jousting and pageantry including Lyonel "the Laughing Storm" Baratheon), and the first day ends after Aerion deliberately kills that horse.

#4 - Dunk argues with Egg over how much of a douche Aerion is, more flirting with Tanselle, gossip with Raymun Fossoway about the Targaryens, Egg runs in to say Aerion's hurting Tanselle, Dunk beats up Aerion and almost gets murdered by Aerion's goons, Egg reveals himself to save Dunk, Dunk in prison, talks to Egg and Baelor, Baelor tells him he can be mutilated for striking a prince or ask for trial by combat, so "how good a knight are you, truly?"

#5 - Aerion says sure, trial by combat, but only a trial of seven, Dunk has to find 6 guys, talks to Raymun and Steffon Fossoway, Daeron apologizes and tells Dunk his dragon dream, shield reveal, next morning the smallfolk are all "a knight who remembered his vows", various guys show up to help Dunk and Raymun gets knighted, but Steffon Fossoway goes to Aerion's side so they're still missing a guy, "are there no true knights among you?", wait is that Valarr??? no it's Baelor in Valarr's armor omg

#6 - The trial of seven. You know how this ends. 😭 Then talking to Maekar, and Dunk and Egg ride off into the sunset together.

I hope that's convincing enough for the doubters! I can see a few points where something might be shifted from the end of one to the beginning of the other -- but on the whole I think the comic is an excellent roadmap for the show, and I hope this is the way they lay it out. Also ftr, the Sworn Sword graphic novel was also originally 6 issues so possibly season 2 ditto (unless they add an episode for the in between THK-TSS Dorne and Oldtown adventures that didn't actually appear in the novellas, idk). But the Mystery Knight was only released as one book, so who knows, they might go for more episodes when they get to that season.

Also, re taking inspiration from the comic, I really hope they adapt the Kingsguards' gold codpieces. Just because.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Oh, indeed. There is an incredibly popular quote used in probably hundreds of jonsa graphics and a few metas and no doubt a lot of videos by now, "Stone and snow, that was all that was left of Winterfell. Just like her and Jon." I have no idea where it originally came from, some 2011/2-era fanfic or graphic edit, but it certainly does not come from GRRM. Heck, it's not even grammatically correct and not even really GRRM's style (not that that's ever stopped anyone).

And yet, a few years ago, a jonerys friend asked me to proofread their meta disputing various jonsa claims… and within their essay, they had spent 6-8 paragraphs disputing this quote. 🤦‍♀️ They were extremely surprised to hear it was not actual ASOIAF text that they needed to consider.

And there's so much out there, just like this. Another pervasive one, non-ship related, is “a harp in the tomb, a child in the womb, a dragon in a stone egg”, a nice bit of poetry sourced only from a theory essay postulating Rhaegar's harp is in Lyanna's tomb. People have come to me going, "but that theory must be true, I mean, the poem!" and I had to gently explain he drew the receipts himself.

(lol, well, I say not ship-related even though it's R+L=J, but I tend to think of those obsessed with it (particularly that essayist) more as theory-obsessives rather than ship-obsessives. Not to slight shippers, I'm one myself, but it's a different kind of attitude for text analysis and projection, focusing less on proof of love specifically.)

But yeah, made up or misread jonsa theories are hilariously pervasive -- "the girl in grey" for one (it's Alys Karstark, who came to the Wall as a girl in grey riding a dying horse escaping a forced marriage. GRRM gave the answer in the book the prophecy appeared ffs, the whole story point of the prophecy is that Jon sent Mance and the spearwives to Winterfell to aid "Arya" and thus they ended up in Theon and Jeyne's storyline, but no, Sansa's going to do it all over again just because!) And my Ashford tourney crack theory they stole and misinterpreted (it was about Aegon, and about the fact nobody won the tourney because of Dunk (Sandor, lol, though I'll accept Brienne too), and I've seen people seriously considering it important even though I admit it's almost certainly coincidence and doesn't mean anything! Jonsas aren't the only ones of course, believe me I've seen some tremendous crack in my own ship, but I'm thinking specifically of cases like that where the actual text of the story (Alys Karstark, Mance, Jeyne, Theon; or the historical events of the tourney where Dunk and Egg met and Baelor Breakspear died) doesn't even seem to exist if you're only looking at edits and videos and other fanworks. It gives a wildly bizarre reading of the text if you've never actually read it.

And yes, twitter is full of these cases where the text has become irrelevant, where people make inferences and projections on top of distanced inferences and projections. Not to exclude worg and reddit, where people just make theories-on-top-of-theories, building up enormous cloud castles with no real foundation. Like the Southron Ambitions Conspiracy (textually, the rantings of a lonely paranoid woman), which developed (rationally) into the fan theory that "the STAB bloc formed to remove the Targaryens", but people use that as a basis for so much more, defaulting it as true, even though it is still only an unproven theory! And because it's maester-related and Targaryen-related, it's been mixed with the maester anti-magic conspiracy (very likely true, but also very shadily sourced within the text), into this enormous Protocols of the Elders of Hightower bizarre conspiracy theory that the Hightowers and Citadel want to control all of Westeros and killed all the Targaryens and dragons even the ones who were killed by each other and you can't trust the maester-written Fire & Blood in any way! except it's an inviolate text for the parts you want to be true and nothing is real but everything is, how dare you say otherwise.

Anyway, thank you so much re the term "sourcecreep" and that Jack Sparrow not-a-quote. Fascinating stuff.

@ilynpilled

ppl being more interested in Fandom than the actual source text is so real like they do have their own nonexistent text thats just a recycled concoction of the same bland fandom incorrect quotes tropes over and over again which deviates so much from the canon and they prefer to the actual thing lol

my favorite example of sourcecreep is the fact that if you go on reddit, pinterest, or facebook, or google image search 7 years ago, or flickr and photobucket if you're properly fandom old, you will find image edits of disney's jack sparrow with the quote overlay "the problem is not the problem. the problem is your attitude about the problem."

if you've seen enough of these edits (there are many thousands of them), you might even read those two sentences in his trademark cadence.

the problem here, though, is not anyone's attitude about the problem. it's that this quote has never appeared in any of the five films in which jack sparrow appears. nor in any of the video games he stars or guest-stars on. nor in any of the tie-in young jack sparrow novels or the film novelizations. it is not from a deleted scene or an early draft of any script. it's not from any of the disney park parades or firework shows in which jack is included as a face character with recorded speaking lines. it's not from the original ride or the re-dress of the ride post-dead man's chest.

this is a quote from the YA series the sisterhood of the traveling pants. one of the characters' coaches says it to them in one of the books because they are children in high school. there is no reason for it to be attributed to this character or this franchise besides one patient zero at some point or another 20 years ago making an image with a text overlay on picnik photo editor and uploading it to their livejournal or whatever.

anyway this is how asoiaf fans on twitter absorb information about their favs from the series and then post about it. i believe there are many such cases across fandom at large.

[francy-sketches]

I bet aerion's carrd would go crazy

[atopvisenyashill]

I hope you find a love that’s true So the morning light shines on you

[agentrouka-blog]

How does ashford theory account for “I was going to marry her to Robert!”? There is no Arryn suitor, and Robert has been mentioned more than once as a possible match for Sansa. In my opinion, that’s one of the most avid holes in the theory.

The fourth pavilion was sewn together from diamond-shaped pieces of cloth, alternating red and white. Dunk did not know the colors, but Egg said they belonged to a knight from the Vale of Arryn named Ser Humfrey Hardyng. "He won a great melee at Maidenpool last year, ser, and overthrew Ser Donnel [Darklyn?] of Duskendale and the Lords Arryn and Royce in the lists."

I think out of the two Vale "suitors", GRRM picked the one whose role is far more significant. The betrothal to Sweetrobin is mentioned as an option but is never plot-relevant, unlike the others. (Joffrey, Willas, Tyrion, Harry - they all drive the plot forward as matches to Sansa.) Honestly, I think that GRRM mostly put it in for the "how would you like to marry your cousin" line. The betrothal serves no political purpose that benefits Lysa at that point in time and is dropped with no repercussions.

GRRM gives a small mention to Arryn and Royce (Waymar being emphasized as Sansa's past crush in AFFC) in Hardyng's backstory, which could be interpreted as a nod in that direction.

Far more significant than leaving out the Arryn suitor is the inclusion of the Hardyng suitor. Because, literally, the name appears in no. other. context. but at this tourney and being one of Sansa's suitors. It's what drives home the significance of the other names in the first place. That's what makes the black-clad, dark-haired Targaryen such an interesting addition in that circle. What is the "black prince with the white guardian" doing in that company?

It's too much to be a coincidence, so what's the point of niggling at the ultimately insignificant details? It's an easter egg of a hint. Not an air-tight legal argument meant to hold up in court.

[malleefies]

I have nothing to post for now so I'm going to share an asoiaf oc...because they're all I have on the brain rn. yep . im #ocpilled This is Rhea Florent and her brother Ser Jon Florent at a tourney. They're Dunk & Egg era ocs... and some extra sketches down below.

[babybells123]

There is something so beautifully anvilicious about these quotes;

" I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise." (AFFC, Alayne II)

"The dream was sweet . . . but Winterfell would never be his to show. It belonged to his brother, the King in the North. He was a Snow, not a Stark. Bastard, oathbreaker, and turncloak . . ." (ASOS, Jon V)

Both Jon and Sansa are yearning for Winterfell and the feelings/memories/family associated -but both are intrinsically restricting themselves based off of their bastard status. The notion of Sansa being the only Stark (and character) to transition from a high-born noble lady to a baseborn bastard cannot be overlooked. (And then of course, the notion of Jon being the only Stark (and character) to transition from baseborn bastard to lord commander, cannot be overlooked.) Jon has risen to the top whilst Sansa has lowered to the bottom.

She (GRRM) makes the comparison to Jon herself, meaning that GRRM makes the comparison himself. this isn't something interpreted by fans - it is right there, explicitly within the text.

Sansa's desire to reunite with Jon is "sweet," it'd be almost like a dream come true. Jon's "dream was sweet" as well. But "Winterfell could never be his" and seeing her brother once again "of course, could never be" (possible).

And then later on in the text, Jon is offered the chance to become Jon Stark, and have Winterfell in name. Thus his decidedly unsubtle desire (that he dismisses as an entirely impossible dream) is fulfilled by Stannis' offer, even though he eventually rejects it in truth "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa."

There is also the quote that precedes Jon's "sweet dream," where he fantasises about a beautiful little romance with Ygritte; showing her a flower from the glass gardens, feasting her in the great hall, bathing in the hot pools, and loving beneath the heart tree. This dream is directly connected to Winterfell and is obviously sexually + romantically charged.

So whilst Jon's desire is partially fulfilled (even if he doesn't accept it) can we possibly assume that Sansa's simultaneously unsubtle "that could never be" may also be fulfilled? Since GRRM seems to really be beating us over the head with how 'that could never happen' from Sansa's internal monologue "no one will ever marry me for love" is reiterated multiple times (just you wait sweet one!) and Sansa desiring to reunite with her brother who she has modelled her bastardry after, who is supposedly the only brother left to her, is immediately dismissed by Sansa because she's accepted the fact that she'll never be with her family again, (and that she shall never encounter true love).

The connections only keep connecting!

So to summarise:

Jon & Sansa both have "sweet" dreams/desires that connect to Winterfell/family.

Jon's dream is sexually/romantically charged, involves a red-headed girl, and establishes Jon's suppressed desires as actually romantic.

Both Jon and Sansa are bastards in these contexts.

Both Jon and Sansa woefully dismiss these dreams/desires as impossible as "that could never be" and "it could never be his to show."

Jon's desire however is later offered on a silver platter by Stannis Baratheon, to which he mulls over and states that he "has always wanted it" (to be his). Though he later refuses Stannis' offer on the basis that "Winterfell belongs to Sansa" - twice over he says this.

Jon 'giving' Winterfell to Sansa is in direct contrast to Robb (Sansa's image of an honourably idealistic older brother) flat out rejecting Sansa's claim on the basis of her marriage to Tyrion.

Jon thus establishes himself as the only character who respects and protects Sansa's claim. Who does not abuse or exploit it. (Even though he was given the opportunity for it and it's been his innermost desire since childhood.)

In a way, this further conveys Jon as Sansa's unspoken, subconscious hero who is protecting her interests and instilling all those heroic ideals (such as the Janos Slynt situation) - though she does not realise it and has accepted that "there are no heroes" at all. But Jon is the true hero, hiding in plain sight.

So, whilst Sansa believes there are no heroes, Jon fulfils those ideals. Whilst Sansa believes no one will marry her for love, Jon exists as the embodiment of all the chivalric, romantic ideals that she's so desperately wanted.

Can we now assume that Sansa believing that she will essentially never see Jon again as entirely anvilicious as she will in fact see Jon again?

GEORGE I'M IN YOUR WALLS.

[lupinusalbus]

"And Dunk and Egg — Peter Claffey and Dexter Sol Ansell , respectively —  looked as if they just walked out of the pages of my book, and the chemistry between them was just perfect."

[billboard-hotties-tourney]

REMINDER: Vote for the ALBUM COVER that is HOTTER, not the hotter artist or the better cover/album

Propaganda for Sticky Fingers: "Photographed by Andy Warhol, the first issues had a working zipper. The quintessential sexy album cover." Defeated Opponents: Love for Sale

Propaganda for Is It Still Good to Ya: none Defeated Opponents: Elle S'appelle Dalida

[catofoldstones]

my favourite thing to analyze right now is the parallel of sansa betrothing a prince who's a bastard and then maybe betrothing a bastard who's actually a prince, like if we're too retread the ashford theory its too brilliant of a parallel to not do it , its why i don't think the last targ is aegon because it would just be a remake of of joffrey's twist narrative

yup, yup. i agree w you, i just have to reread the books to get into the zone again. a rumour of twow releasing and i come running back…

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

how do you feel about j*nsas stealing and appropriating your theory Frankenstein style? I know I’d be pissed but on the other hand it’s funny because it’s still their strongest “argument” haha

It makes me laugh, honestly. Especially the way many shippers -- who have evidently never read The Hedge Knight -- place so much importance on the Ashford Tourney, the Ashford fair maid, and the Targaryen champion! Like, Lord's Ashford's daughter is so significant, she doesn't even have a name. And the whole thing with Valarr Targaryen was that he was a pretty awful jouster, and only held onto the position as the fair maid's champion out of nepotism, because nobody good actually challenged him. (Though his cousin Aerion threatened to, before deciding to bully someone else.)

And the most significant point, that Valarr didn't come out of nowhere, defeat all the other champions, and crown the girl queen of love and beauty -- lol, not in the slightest, he was a champion from the start, and the way the tourney was set up was that at the end of the third day, whoever were the final five champions would either choose to keep Ashford's daughter as the QOLAB or select somebody else to be. And either way, that never happened, since during the first night Dunk and Aerion had their altercation, Dunk never saw who any of the champions were on the second day because he was in prison, and the third day the fair maid/champion tourney was canceled and they held his Trial of Seven instead. There was no queen of love and beauty at the end of the story!

Like, this tourney does not compare in significance to, say, the Tourney of Harrenhal. Historically, the fair maid means nothing, the Ashford Tourney is only remembered for the Trial of Seven that ended with Baelor's death. And I only happened to think it was a bit of a funny coincidence that four of the first day's champions matched Sansa's suitors (that's how you know it was taken from me despite claims of independent creation, it was known as "the Fifth Suitor theory") and thought it might be an even more funny coincidence if Aegon ended up pursuing Sansa as a bride after (or in the process of) claiming the throne, which was a common bit of speculation in 2012 after Aegon was revealed to be alive (presumably) in 2011's ADWD. And the whole point I had was how futile said champions were in the face of Dunk's actions, and well, *cough*.

But it was always just a crack theory, a silly coincidence. That they've imbued it with such significance, well, um. Good for them I guess. It's certainly less worse than pointing to Sansa Stark daughter of Rickon and her half-uncle Jonnel -- when most likely that was a forced marriage to steal an inheritance like the uncles of Alys Karstark attempted with her, and Jonnel had no children with either Sansa or his second wife, died, and two successive brothers became Lord of Winterfell before the youngest had any children to succeed him. That is not a historical model you want to follow, I'm sorry.

BTW, this post of mine also getting appropriated by jonsas also makes me laugh (2 for 2 lol my god), because the point of that parallel was that Jon is indeed a hero from the songs -- since again, in 2011 immediately post-ADWD there was a fandom reaction pushing Aegon up as the actual PTWP and such. (Well. The ones who didn't decide Victarion was Azor Ahai lol sigh.) And that Sansa's words were the foreshadowing ones, I thought was significant, again in response to fandom decreeing her unimportant. It was not to make Jon specifically Sansa's hero or lover or anything where is that implied I have no idea oh shippers oh fandom sigh sigh sigh 😂😅

[kellyvela]

Are we going to have Ashford Tourney in TKOSK? Considering there is Humphrey Hardyng and Leo Tyrell in cast.

Of course! That's the heart of the story!

[…] I knew I wanted to be in this book [Legends], so when he [Robert Silverberg] invited me to be in this book I gleefully accepted, and then I had to think, well, what am I gonna write for this book? I’m still in the middle of writing… I think I was still in the middle of writing Clash of Kings, I mean the only book out there was Game of Thrones. Well, am I gonna write a story about Tyrion or Arya or Jon Snow? No! I can’t do that. I have to save that for the book. I have to do this, I have to do a prequel. So I started thinking about my history and what would be a good area to write it, and I came up with the Dunk and Egg stuff. I was particularly attracted… that whole story [The Hedge Knight] is built around a tournament. I love medieval tournaments, reading about them, writing about them. There’s of course some of them in the main books, but this was an opportunity in a time of peace, not war, to look at a medieval tournament with all its pageantry and the jousting and the combat and reveal a little of Westerosi History.

—In conversation: George R.R. Martin with Dan Jones FULL EVENT- August 2019

[jonsaforeshadowing]

jonsa foreshadowing of the day: an old SanSan theory

[westeroswisdom]

^^^ A production photo from A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms via Winter Is Coming.

It apparently was taken during filming of the tourney at Ashford Meadow.

The series is set to start in August or September.

[atopvisenyashill]

The Girl In Grey And The Tourney

After narrowly escaping Lady Stoneheart with her life, Brienne follows a lead to the Vale, just in time for the tourney for the Brotherhood of Winged Knights. Before the tourney’s end, however, Ser Shadrich reveals the Lord Protector’s baseborn daughter Alayne Stone to be Sansa Stark and attempts to take her into custody to face justice for kingslaying.

But a True Knight steps forward and demands a trial by combat, saving Sansa from arrest. When the two finally catch a moment alone, Sansa asks Brienne to take her away from the Vale, and go to the only family Sansa has left alive in the North - Jon Snow.