#source: orestes

[incorrectlooneytunesquotes]

Love ees all we have, ze only way zat each can help ze ozair.

Pepe le Pew

[emmikay]

Menelaus: Hermione, wipe your feet.

Odysseus: Telemachus, are you all right?

Nestor: Pisistratus, for the last time-

Agamemnon: Orestes!

Achilles: Phyrrus, calm down.

Ajax the Greater: Where is Eurysakes?

Diomedes:

Diomedes: Parenting must be wild.

[tragic-ships-tournament]

this propaganda is just in the tags because it was too big to screenshot on my end

Tragic Ships Tournament Round 3

Propaganda under the cut!

Tenrose:

"Oh my god they're so. ugh. they mean literally everything to me. From the wiki: 'They frequently bring out the best in each other, supporting and uplifting the other person, comforting them, and sometimes just acting totally giddy to be in each other's presence. They both display their trust in the other person's capabilities on numerous occasions, and seem uncommonly matched.' HOW CUTE IS THAT 😭😭😭😭 . BRO HE LITERALLY SAYS I LOVE YOU TO HER AND THEN FLIES AWAY. OH MY GOD. BEING THE DOCTOR PREVENTS HIM FROM MAKING ACTUAL CONNECTION BUT THAT DOESNT STOP MY BOI. OGH AND ALSO " “I made my choice a long time ago. I'm never gonna leave you.” ROSE WTF"

Enjoltaire:

"Okay so the whole thing with them is that Enjolras is like the leader of the Les Amis; he believes in the revolution in his heart and soul and his being. He is a shining beacon of hope like Victor Hugo calls him Apollo in the book. He believes in freedom and in the future and that beyond the barricade, there's a new tomorrow waiting for them. Grantaire, on the other hand, doesn't believe in anything. He's a drunk and a cynic and he doesn't believe in that new tomorrow. If nothing had something to offer, Grantaire would stop believing in nothing. When he offers to do something to help the Les Amis, he gets distracted and drunk and I think he ends up playing dominoes? It might have been cards. Anyway, that's Grantaire. BUT Grantaire believes in ONE thing. And that ONE thing is ENJOLRAS. No matter how cynical and pessimistic Grantaire is, he believes in Enjolras. If Enjolras is Apollo, Grantaire is Icarus flying ever closer to him. And then at the end. When their revolution has failed and they are facing down the barrel of guns. Grantaire gets up and stands next to Enjolras and asks if he can hold his hand so that they can die together, and they do. It's heartbreaking and heart wrenching and Icarus brings the sun down with him as he falls."

[streets-in-paradise]

It's the first time I see a book retelling mentioning it.

I knew it wasn't just a Troy meme!

[lilyyofthevale]

sources: Orestes - Euripides/House of the Dragon (TV)/The Penitent Mary Magdeline - Carlo Dolci/House Song - Searows/Psalm 51:7/Shame - Mitski

[lilyflxwers]

sources: useralyssa//aeschylus/the oresteia//natalie diaz/postcolonial love poem - wolf OR7//sylvia plath/a letter to ruth tiffany// orestes/euripides//richard aiken/crush//yevgeny yevtushenko/fury

[red-moon-at-night]

Thinking about the idea of Helen's desire for kleos, and how she is limited in the ways in which she can achieve it as a woman, it is rather interesting to see how the most 'obvious' solution to it is avoided — through children.

The main consensus surrounding Helen's number of children is that she gives birth to one, a girl called Hermione. Some sources bring up several others, but the earliest and most consistent child mentioned (and birthed by Helen) is her:

He was bringing Alector's daughter from Sparta for his son, mighty Megapenthes, grown up, who'd been borne him by a slave. The gods no longer made a child appear for Helen after she gave birth to her first child, lovely Hermione, who had the form of golden Aphrodite. (Homer, Odyssey, OD.4.10 - ca. 700 BCE)

MENELAUS [Laurentian Scholiast on Sophocles' Electra, 539]: 'And she (Helen) bare to Menelaus, famous with the spear, Hermione and her youngest-born, Nicostratus, a scion of Ares.' (Hesiod, Fragments, CW.F70 - ca. 650 BCE )

Now Menelaus had by Helen a daughter Hermione and, according to some, a son Nicostratus; and by a female slave Pieris, an Aitolian, or, according to Acusilaus, by Tereis, he had a son Megapenthes; and by a nymph Cnossia, according to Eumelus, he had a son Xenodamus (Apollodorus, Library, 3.11.1 - ca. 100 CE)

When Orestes became king of the Lacedemonians, they themselves consented to accept him for they considered that the sons of the daughter of Tyndareus had a claim to the throne prior to that of Nicostratus and Megapenthes, who were sons of Menelaus by a slave woman. On the death of Orestes, there succeeded to the throne Tisamenus, the son of Orestes and of Hermione, the daughter of Menelaus (Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.18.6 - ca. 174 CE)

It seems the later the sources get, the more children are added (look at that Apollodrus extract! Menelaus has been around!); but even then, Hermione is always mentioned, and often mentioned as the only legitimate child of Helen and Menelaus.*

*Yes the Scholiast on Euripides, Andr. 898 Cypria fragment does mention Pleisthenes the third born child, but... we're ignoring him (lol). As far as I'm aware he's only mentioned once and also no confirmation he's legitimate. Sorry Pleisthenes.

Now, let's talk about that a little. Helen giving birth to a daughter, and proceeding to not have any more children after that raises an important point — Helen does not produce an heir for her husband. Helen, as Menelaus' wife is expected to do that but she simply... doesn't. She has one child and that's it. Sometimes that one child isn't even intentional:

And she (Helen) bare neat-ankled Hermione in the palace, a child unlooked for. (Hesiod, Fragments, CW.F68 - ca. 650 BCE)

unlooked-for = unexpected; unforeseen.

However, as Ruby Blondell mentions in 'Helen of Troy: Beauty, Myth Devastation':

"In normal circumstances such failure to bear a son would jeopardize a Greek wife's position, since it denies her a woman's primary avenue to status within her husband's household. Since she did not relocate upon marriage, however, Helen needs no sons to establish her status at Sparta. Moreover, the absence of a son helps her maintain her independence. When a son grows up, he becomes another source of male authority over his mother." (pg. 32-33)

She has different circumstances from her peers; she doesn't need children to retain her status. In fact, if she were to bear a son it might be worse for her position.

This would explain her reluctance for children, if the lack of them was indeed a choice. Nonetheless, it's worth exploring the possibility that it is unintentional. There's certainly evidence for it being so, if we look at how Hermione fares in adulthood with her own fertility:

(to Andromache) but as for thee, slave and captive, thou wouldst fain oust me and secure this palace for thyself, and thanks to thy enchantment I am hated by my husband; thou it is that hast made my womb barren and cheated my hopes (Euripides, Andromache, 117 - ca. 425 BCE)

Helen is struggling to have children, and now Hermione is struggling to have children — like mother, like daughter. Is the infertility hereditary? Or perhaps there are some godly influences afoot:

TYNDAREUS Scholiast on Euripides' Orestes 249: Stesichorus says that while sacrificing to the gods Tyndareus forgot Aphrodite and that the goddess was angry and made his daughters twice and thrice wed and deserters of their husbands (Hesiod, Fragments, CW.F67 - ca. 650 BCE )

While this extract focuses only on Tyndareus' daughters and their infidelity, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the curse of a god could extend to multiple generations of a family (e.g. the house of Atreus) and in other ways — in this case, not being able to get pregnant/have a successful pregnancy.

However, considering the infertility as an intervention by the gods, I don't think that this is necessarily a 'curse'. This feels more like fate. That, regardless of whether it is Helen's choice to have just Hermione or not, it is destined to happen. The subtext being 'just Hermione' and no more.

Blondell mentions that in Theocritus' poem The Epithamaly of Helen, the chorus pray that Helen bears Menelaus a child that resembles herself. If we take the quote from The Odyssey earlier, of Hermione 'who had the form of golden Aphrodite', we can assume that prayer is fulfilled. Blondell also says:

"There is something a little strange, however, about the chorus's prayer. ... since there is no doubt about a woman's identity as a mother, the crucial point, for a husband, is that his wife's offspring should resemble him. It seems strange too, at a wedding, to pray in effect for a daughter as opposed to a son and heir." (pg. 32)

Helen will have a child, and it will resemble her, but that's it. No sons, no heirs.

Enter stage left: Zeus' plan to reduce the population of demigods by having a beautiful daughter, who will instigate a long and bloody war.

How do you get such a daughter to instigate a war? By leaving her husband because she desires more than the cards she has been dealt.

If Helen does desire kleos, but is essentially barred from achieving it in the ways a woman traditionally does, then she must seek it elsewhere.

In choosing to leave with (effeminate, unconventional) Paris: If she doesn't wish to have children, maybe she thinks she can escape the 'inevitable' fate of all wives to bear a son and be known only as their mother — she will seek kleos elsewhere. If she does wish to have children, maybe she has tried to bear children, many, many times after Hermione and cannot, and in that shame of failing to meet the minimum standards of being a woman — she will seek kleos elsewhere.

Whatever her feelings are on the matter, fate remains the same: Helen will have a daughter that resembles her, and Helen will go to Troy with Paris. The facts still remain the same too: Helen cannot bear a son, and this separates her from womanhood. She cannot successfully be a woman by society's standards, and cannot make her legacy her children.

She must find kleos in other ways.

[whencyclopedia]

Atreus was the mythical Greek king of Mycenae. He is perhaps best known for being the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus, two heroes of the Trojan War, as well as for the terrible curse placed upon his family. This was a hereditary curse, plaguing the family for five generations with a vicious cycle of murder and revenge. The curse of the House of Atreus began when its founder, Tantalus, offended the gods by serving them a feast made of the dismembered remains of his own son, Pelops, in an attempt to test their omniscience. It continued with the rivalry between Atreus and his brother Thyestes that blossomed into a bloody feud, and it afflicted the next generation as well, with the murder of Agamemnon by his own wife. The curse did not end until Atreus' grandson Orestes avenged Agamemnon's murder and was absolved from all guilt by the gods. The story of Atreus and his heirs made excellent dramatic material for ancient Greek and Roman literature, as seen in the trilogy known as the Oresteia written by Greek tragedy playwright Aeschylus (c. 525 to c. 456 BCE) and the tragedy Thyestes written by Seneca (4 BCE to 65 CE). The members of the House of Atreus are referenced in many different sources of Greek mythology, with Atreus' descendants being collectively known as Atreidai, the plural form of the patronymic name Atreides.

[katerinaaqu]

What kind of tender words that are used between friends in greek myths? I am genuinely interested at how tender they could be that people saw it as romantical?

Hmm there is plenty since the ancient Greek writing was supposed to be emotional in the first place. I analyze some of it to my post about Achilles and Patroclus;

OK your question is very good to be reminded of of course and have them gathered around once more. So here are some examples;

Words that come from the ancient word φιλέω-ώ (filèo or filò). The verb means "to love" but the word of love here can be used in various contexts including friendly love or family love or even romantic. An example of course from the Iliad and Achilles:

But what pleasure/happiness is left of me when my beloved companion is lost?

(Translation by me)

In the passage Achilles is using the term φίλος (fìlos) which here means "beloved" or "dear" and goes along with the term that stands for "companion" (which be analyzed further down). The same word is used for any type of tender relationship (with friends family partner or even country and land). In fact the term φίλος is used for example in Aeschylus to signify the tender companionship between Orestes and Pylades which doesn't present such passionate scenes between the characters to indicate relationship also we see characters like Menelaus using it for Odysseus again without sexual or romantic implications or from Thetis to her son. But obviously in the passage of Achilles it is much more passionate. And in this context is also used to the full degree φίλτατος aka "the most beloved". Here's an example from Eurypedes's "Orestes"

This one is the most beloved (here: to me) among the mortals

(Translation by me)

Throughout the play Orestes and Pylades have an amazing bond of companionship and friendship. This is the passage of Orestes describing what Pylades is to him. Between them though there isn't the same intensity or passion that one could place between Achilles and Patroclus so the nature of their relationship seems to be what it seems: tender and close friendship. And of course partnership.

And speaking of which the second word in this passage is:

The word ἑταῖρος (etèros) which stands for "comrade" or "companion". As a word is used to all kind of contexts from a friendly relationship to partners in the army or war or in a trip. For example one of the most famous examples of someone using that word is no other than Odysseus himself to refer to his crew:

And I immediately rushed back to my swift ship where I found my comrades grieving severely

(Teanslation by me)

So the word itself is resembling in both use and meaning of the word "another" it was also often translated as "your significant other" which is why also one translates the word as "partner" on occasion and used for husband and wife but obviously that is not the way Odysseus uses it vs Achilles using it of course to the passage I initially quote.

The phrase κεχαρισμένος/η θυμῷ (keharismènos/I thymò) which means "dear to my heart". The phrase is used in various contexts that seem to be interpreted as lovers but also used between characters such as Telemachus and Nestor's son Peisistratus (who also reside to the same room and bed thus leading many interpret their relationship as romantic or of sexual nature) or even as known in the Iliad Briseis uses the same phrase to Patroclus seen from my analysis above.

The phrase though is being used in various of contexts where we hardly assume any friendship yet alone romance (see my funny post where Agamemnon uses that phrase to refer to Diomedes)

So as you see in this context reminds me of good old comedies when men were addressing each other as "hi honey!" Or "certainly, darling" in one way so it is more like a phrase to point towards companionship in that context rather than any sort of fully lovey phrase. The phrase though has been used equally by characters like Telemachus with Nestor's son Peisistratus with whom they share a room and apparently is indicated they share a bed. It is unclear if that indicates that they have some relationship apart from the natural closeness between two people of the same age. Although many readers indicate the passage where they sleep together in the same bed as sexual might as well be the same as...any sleepover young people might have. But as I mention to the example of Agamemnon, the phrase is not necessarily used in a sexual or romantic manner.

"Same as my own head/as my own life". This phrase is used for devotion and expression of outpost love aka that you love someone equally to your own life. As a phrase it was linked with various of characters with of course the most prominent one being Achilles:

The one I valued most of all of my companions, equal to my own life!

(Translation by me)

Achilles uses the phrase I highlight with word ἶσον -> equal and ἐμῇ κεφαλῇ -> my own head (aka "my own life"). The phrase is used in a different manner and a different word in the Greek tragedy "Antigone" where the heroine is opening the play with a very passionate and tender speech towards her sister:

Oh my most beloved sister Ismene

(Translation by me)

Here the word κάρα which means "head" or "heart" depending on the translation is used with the same principle only this time to express deep sisterly affection rather than the talk between lovers.

So here are some examples that are being used both for relationships that are interpreted as romantic and some platonic examples (either friendship or family). I will be happy to elaborate further on some extra examples in comments or reblogs if needed but this is a small sample.

Hope it helps 🙏 🙂 ☺️

[citrineandrosmarin]

🦉Athena Masterpost: Domains🦉

🐍 Masterpost Link 🐍

Last updated: Date of Publishing

Athena, Goddess of…

Metis

As a concept, metis could be translated and understood as meaning “practical wisdom”, “cunning”, “prudence”, “craftiness’ or “skill,” but it is often simply translated into “wisdom.” To many, this word conjures up the image of an old sage, a scholar surrounded by books and full of knowledge. But this was not how metis was conceptualized in ancient Greek culture.

Metis is “a complex but very coherent body of mental attributes and intellectual behaviour which combine flair, wisdom, forethought, subtlety of mind, deception, resourcefulness, vigilance, opportunism, various skills, and experience acquired over the years." It is an intelligence which is often associated with trickery and deception, adaptability, improvisation, shifting movement, shape-changing, quick thinking and seizing the opportunities at the right moment (kairos). Metis is more focused on getting practical results and success within an activity, not theoretical knowledge, and could be applied to many areas of life: "It may involve multiple skills useful in life, the mastery of the artisan in his craft, magic tricks, the use of philtres and herbs, the cunning strategems of war, frauds, deceits, resourcefulness of every kind."

Metis is also not limited to humans, but also applied to animals, such as foxes, fish and octopuses - animals with ‘cunning tricks’ (dolos) and deceptions that allow them to catch their prey or evade their predators. "The world of duplicity is also a world of vigilance: both the fishing frog squatting in the mud and the octopus plastered to its rock are on the alert; they keep a look out, are on the watch for the moment to act. Every animal with metis is a living eye which never closes or even blinks."

This was the kind of cunning we would associate today with the trickster archetype, not the book-loving sage. Athena was not the only deity to have metis (for example, Zeus is another major one) but this concept is a core part of who she is and influences her other associations and her connections with other deities.

Sources:

“Cunning Intelligence in Greek Culture and Society” - Marcel Detienne, Jean-Pierre Vernant

“Athena” - Susan Deacy

🐍Excerpts from “Cunning Intelligence in Greek Culture and Society”

Skill: Related to metis in that it’s very practical, with some intuitive sense but also dependent on experience and practice. This can be applied to many areas of life, though in Athena’s case it was often in relation to war, crafts, sailing and invention.

Crafts: Mainly associated with weaving, Athena was also worshiped in the festival of bronze smiths and artisans, Khalkeia. This aspect is very closely related to skill - as the word for both is ‘tekhne’ (τέχνη). This word is also one related to metis and associated words.

Invention: Athena is known as an inventor, with particular inventions being the bridle, plough and aulos. This aspect is also related to metis, craft and skill.

War: Although typically associated with the skills of war, and strategy, Athena was also associated with war in the same way that Ares was - she was ‘dreadful’ Athene “concerned with works of war, the sack of cities and the shouting and the battle.” (Homeric Hymn 11 to Athena)

🐍On the comparison of Athena and Ares

🐍Iliad - Athena dons the Aegis

Civilization, Politics & Justice: Athena in cult was often paired with Zeus, and these two presided over a number of civic institutions, for example the boule (a council that ran the daily affairs of the city) was watched over by Athena Boulaia and Zeus Boulaios. Athena was closely tied to the Athenian state and in myth was also heavily involved in the first criminal trial - that of Orestes.

Hero Mentorship: Athena was often involved in guiding, aiding and mentoring heroes such as Diomedes, Odysseus, Telemakhus, Herakles, Bellerophon and Perseus.

🐍Athena and Herakles Wedding Imagery

Education and Knowledge [SPG]: Athena’s modern associations with education and intelligence come from how she was adapted in post classical times as an allegorical symbol for church-approved virtues of wisdom and justice. The Renaissance furthered this connection, as she became a symbol of the arts, education, science, human excellence, and liberty.

Information Technology [UPG]: My personal UPG, based in part on Athena's associations with invention, civilization and knowledge, and in part on my own understanding of her character and my relationship and practice with her.

[perplexingly]

Ok so you like self destructive tragic characters right. Self inflicted trauma on top of external trauma type stuff. (I've been thinking about Anders lately and you described him this way and I. can't stop thinking about it.) Can you elaborate on this type of characterization and what exactly makes a character written this way successful and not come off as just incompetent, frustrating or pure evil? I've found myself keeping an eye out for more characters like this but I haven't found any more that aren't shoved squarely in the "evil villain" box both by their source material and their fandom. As a character creator myself I'd love to write more characters like that and given how much you seem to appreciate them I'd love to hear your input. (Hope this ask isn't too weird, I just love well rounded characters that don't fit the status quo and I'll take that wherever I can get it.)

(Also, I've been replaying Skyrim recently before getting back into DA and once again our gaming interests have somehow realigned and all your posts about Enderal are tempting me to try it myself. I'm curious what mods you use, if any beyond Enderal itself? Your posts are the first I've heard of it so I'm not sure if it's even recommended to use mods lol, but I thought it was worth the ask)

Hello! Yes I love characters like that, but I’m afraid I won’t give you the analysis you need, I don’t have many thoughts in my head…

I think that characters like these do come off as all these things you mentioned (just look at all the Anders discourses around, or how Hamlet is perceived as indecisive and pathetic, Captain Ahab as insane, and Victor Frankenstein as “the real monster”), but regardless are still compelling, maybe because they often have very strong convictions, embody that “road to hell is paved with good intentions” proverb? Some of them are also just straight up charismatic (and often kind too!) and it’s easy to like that, though I don’t think that’s a necessary trait to find them interesting. (Anders came off as charming in Awakening as well, but then again, I liked the way he acted in DA2 more). Oh another thing is that they’re almost always the thing that moves the story forward.

Of the top off my head I can think mostly of self destructive characters in classic literature but I’m sure every media and every time period has plenty. Besides previously mentioned I’d also consider characters such as Captain Nemo (by the end of the story at least, for the most part he’s presented as noble and high-functioning), Jekyll of Jekyll&Hyde, Marlowe’s Faust (this one is 100% self inflicted without much external tragedy), any protagonist of any Dostoevsky book, maybe Balladyna (she’s a villainess akin to Macbeth though), maybe Orestes and Electra

Oh for modern works, definitely Captain Flint from Black Sails, Tolkien’s Turin (though there is a literal curse on his family line), Mrs Danvers from Rebecca, maybe Fitz from RotE (though he is more passive than any other character I listed here). I’m sure there are much better examples, it was all off the top of my head though :D

About Enderal, yesss I recommend it highly!! I didn’t use any mods, but there’s a bunch on Nexus (it has a separate page from Skyrim, though I believe Skyrim mods should work as well??). Enderal is more akin to a stand alone game than a mod though, for me it took 60hrs to beat and I didn’t do all of the side quests/didn’t meet all of the named npcs 🥹

Also, good luck with your endeavors!!

[babyrdie]

I like to imagine Agamemnon as an average height guy and Menelaus as a tall guy. Why? Because it's hilarious to imagine the protective older brother dynamic when your little brother is taller than you. Helen, I think, is also tall by average female standards because of Zeus' genes. Plus, I imagine her to have an intimidating presence (remember how it was said that her beauty was terrifying in The Iliad) and I think height plays into that. Menelaus and Helen both being tall implies that Hermione is likely to be tall. So I imagine Hermione to be tall. And while I imagine Helen is naturally intimidating (i.e. unintentionally so), Hermione uses her height to her advantage when she wants to.

On the other hand, while my Achilles is tall, I imagine Deidamia to be short. And I like to think that Neoptolemus is also short simply because I like the idea that he won't naturally fit into Achilles' armor. There will have to be active effort for this to happen, in the same way that he is constantly trying to be Achilles (in my headcanon, Thetis altered the size of Neoptolemus' armor in the same way that Zeus altered Achilles' armor, which was with Patroclus, for Hector. It's pure headcanon, mind you, there is no source that attests to this). Also, I like the contrast that he certainly looks like a demon on the battlefield, but that doesn't reflect in his appearance at all. Not everyone who is capable of cruelty has an appearance that you find intimidating.

Finally, I imagine Orestes being taller than Neoptolemus, but being shorter than Hermione. Electra is taller than him, but the other sisters are shorter. He's probably average like Agamemnon.

So we have Hermione > Orestes > Neoptolemus. Food for thought.

[miffy-junot]

a hint of homoeroticism between Napoleon and Junot

Here is an excerpt from an 1853 biography of Napoleon:

'He wore, then, the famous gray frock-coat; but it was very shredded; he placed his hat backwards, as if he were about to fall; fastened his cravat badly, and did not wear gloves, because they were too expensive. His pleasures were confined to a few melancholy walks, in the Jardin des Plantes, leaning on the arm of Junot, whom he called his Orestes; exchanging his dreams with him; for the unfortunate are those who have the most extravagant dreams. But the awakening was terrible. "I saw him," said Junot, "in a violent emotion, when he met on the boulevards the marvellous men of the time, who seemed to be swimming in madness, he wanted at all costs to get out of this situation;"'

source

It is known that Napoleon and Junot were very close in this time, but something struck me about this account: 'his Orestes'.

This is a reference to the Greek mythological figures of Orestes and Pylades, whose devotion to each other has been, for hundreds of years, a symbol of homoeroticism. Here is what Erōtes, a contemplation of 'the two kinds of love' attributed to Lucian of Samosata, says on the subject:

'Phocis joined Orestes and Pylades from infancy; they took a god for witness of their mutual love, and sailed through life on a single ship. Together they put Clytemnestra to death, as though both had been Agamemnon’s sons; by both was Aegisthus slain. Pylades suffered even more than Orestes, when the latter was hounded by the Furies. When Orestes was accused of being a criminal, Pylades stood by his side. Their loving friendship was not hemmed in by the boundaries of Greece, for they sailed together to the farthest shores of Scythia, one ill and the other nursing him. When they reached the land of the Tauri, the Fury herself, avenger of Orestes’ mother’s murder, prepared their welcome: barbarians attacking from all sides, just as Orestes was laid low by his mad ravings. But Pylades wiped away the froth and tended him, covering him with a finely-woven robe, showing not so much the tenderness of a lover as that of a father. [...] That’s how things stand. When an honest love, nourished from childhood, gathers strength and reaches the manly age of reason, then the one we have long loved is able to return that love. It is hard to tell who is whose lover; just as in a mirror, the tenderness of the lover is reflected by that of the beloved.'

source

[lyculuscaelus]

Some thoughts concerning the Epigonoi. They’re probably around the same age, maybe with Alcmaeon being the oldest—but still the age difference wouldn’t be too significant.

Specifically:

Aegialeus: it’s likely that he was born late, if we go by Statius’s Thebaid where Adrastus was mentioned to be “lacked male issue” by the time he married his daughters to Polyneices and Tydeus respectively (Thebaid book 1, 390–394). Had to say, this reason makes sense to explain why Adrastus wanted to marry off his daughters so eagerly. If so then Aegialeus was likely born after the time of the double marriage, and still old enough to beget a son before he went for war. Would he be at the age of eight by the time the first Theban War took place? (Might be younger though, since there’s Achilles as an example…)

Alcmaeon: he would be old enough to take heed of his father’s orders for vengeance, but not old enough to do that until about ten years later. Perhaps we may go with Orestes parallel and consider him to be around ten when the Seven went against Thebes, so he’d have the vengeance in his 20’s?

Diomedes: so I actually failed to identify any source for that statement on the wiki page for Diomedes. Nevertheless, Diomedes being younger than the rest of the group makes sense for BOTH the thing about people around him constantly reminding him of the his father and the war in Thebes AND the parallel of him being younger than most of the other Achaean chieftains by the time of the Trojan War.

Sthenelus: older than Diomedes, for sure. Old enough to father a son or two a few years before the Trojan War took place—if Cometes was real, that is (if not, then Cylarabes having died without an issue probably means he could be born at any time which does not help with our calculation). Let’s say, he might be at least eighteen when he begot Cometes, and Cometes being…well, eighteen? When he consorted with Aegialeia (you see, another thing that’s so fricked up is the age difference. If Aegialeia was a daughter of Aegialeus then maybe this makes some…sense—but she would be too young for Diomedes in that case; but if she’s a daughter of Adrastus then…it’s straight up two generations between Cometes and Aegialeia which is just…ugh. Welp another reason why I don’t acknowledge this wicked version of Aegialeia’s story). We don’t actually know the time gap between the Epigoni campaign and the Trojan War (again, that claim on Diomedes’s wiki page is unsourced), but if it’s five to ten years then Sthenelus would be ranging from 16 to 21 when he went for Thebes.

Thersandros: he might be older than Diomedes or about the same age—putting his age between Aegialeus’s and Diomedes’s just in case.

Promachus: his father Parthenopaeus was young. Like, the youngest among the Seven against Thebes. Still, he was old enough to father a son before he left for war (again, let’s say it’s eighteen for the sake of calculation), and we don’t really know when he did that. Let’s say the age when Parthenopaeus left for war ranges from 18 to 23: then Promachus would be around 10 to 15? Again being the youngest, perhaps?

Can’t really decide the age for Amphilochus, Euryalus, Polydorus, Medon simply based on their lineage…

Alright I expect this to be quite different from how everyone calculates their age so let me know if you have other theories!

[apollosgiftofprophecy]

having Cassandra and Apollo thoughts...

thoughts about how she still calls Apollo "the god I love", even after the curse. how he gifted not just her, but her twin with the gift of prophecy. he loved both of them. they loved him.

I know people claim Athena avenged Cassandra's rape at the hands of Ajax but tbh that wasn't Athena avenging Cassandra - that was Athena punishing Ajax for violating the sanctity of her temple.

if Cassandra hadn't been inside Athena's temple, Ajax would have gotten away with it. and in a way, he did anyway.

and then when you think about Cassandra's death...the one to avenge her is the god she loves. Apollo. he cursed her, yes. but he still loved her too.

because think about it. apollo did not give a flying fuck about Agamemnon. if it was just Agamemnon who died, Apollo would have thrown a party.

but Cassandra was also killed. someone Apollo loves, and a favored priestess.

...remember what happened to Agamemnon when he insulted a priest of Apollo? a plague fell on the Achaeans.

and when Cassandra is killed...Apollo finds a way to make her murders pay the price. He gets Orestes to kill his own mother to avenge Cassandra.

frankly, I love them. I want more of them. This messy, complicated relationship with so much more meaning than "apollo got mad because she wouldn't sleep with him". Even with the cursory view I have, I can see there is so much more there.

Gods, I need to get my hands on those primary sources so I can obsessively read about them in full.

If anybody has recommendations on which primary sources have Cassandra and Apollo please tell me

I am begging you.

RAWRRAWRARWR I LOVE THEM👀

I also have thoughts about Apollo and Orestes but that's for another time

[death-before-ilion]

Fundamental sources

Greek mythology is recorded in numerous texts, covering multiple centuries, locations, traditions and variations. Many of these ancient sources are lost to us, or fragmentary. This leaves us with an incomplete (albeit vast) and oftentimes incoherent collection of written sources on which to base my own work.

The sources which are considered by the ancient Greeks themselves as foundational and central to Greek mythology are essentially : the early Greek epic poets (amongst which is, of course, Homer), Hesiod (author of the famed Theogony, not counted as an epic poet) and the Homeric Hymns (called Homeric because they are written in the same language, style and meter as the Iliad and Odyssey). These texts were written down between the 8th and the 5th centuries BC, and are based on oral material that goes much further back.

Of the early epic poems, only the Iliad and the Odyssey attributed to Homer still survive, considered by the ancient Greeks as the pinnacle of their literature. Of all the other epics, only fragments and (if we're lucky) summaries remain. The Trojan Cycle was made of the following works :

The Cypria, which describes the origin and early years of the Second Trojan War

The Iliad, which tells of the wrath of Achilles and the death of Hector

The Aethiopis, which describes the intervention of Amazons and Ethiopians in the war, and the death of Achilles

The Little Iliad, a dense work that covers events from the funeral of Achilles to the episode of the Trojan horse

The Sack of Troy, which, as its title suggests, tells the events from the Trojan horse to the desctruction of the city and the anger of Athena

The Return from Troy, in which the Greek heroes return home, with tragic developments, such as the murder of Agamemnon and the revenge of Orestes

The Odyssey, tells the return of Ulysses, the longest and most adventurous return of all Greek heroes

The Telegony, that covers further adventures of Ulysses until he is killed by Telegonus, his son by Circe

To this we can add a Theban Cycle (covering the life of Oedipus, both Theban Wars and the revenge of Alcmaeon) and a few additional epics (including a Titanomachy I would have loved to read). Chances are high that there were many more, lost to us even by name.

Hesiod left us three complete works and a number of fragments, the most important of which is the Theogony, which describes how the universe began and the early history of the gods.

Lastly, the Homeric Hymns, of which three may be later additions, are poems or songs that praise the gods, each hymn being dedicated to a specific god.

In the context of my work, these sources will be taken as having the highest authority. Later sources will be accepted if they provide additional material that completes or extends the earlier texts, or if they help resolve an obvious inconsistency or impossibility.