#pre-flashpoint dc comics

[tallochar]

Tim: Look I might be a few hours here until I get a list of possibles, you really need some rest if you want those burns to heal. Bruce: You're right, but have the list ready for me when I get up. Tim: Sure thing, Bruce

From Batman #645 (1992), story by Chuck Dixon with art by Tom Lyle & Scott Hanna, image description in ALT.

Which means Tim is very early in his Robin career so around 14 years old (because he was 13 when he met Bruce and 16 to 17 years old in Teen Titan's Tower when Jason showed up, something always worth remembering in this fandom).

This comes on the heels of Bruce being electroctuted so hard his heart stopped beating (for a full minute and a half before it got restarted) in the Gotham sewers and Tim threatening the guy who did it (accidentally but the guy wasn't a good guy per se) into shocking Bruce back to life and, furthermore, on the heels of Tim telling Bruce to rest, Bruce refusing, Tim appealing to Alfred about it and Alfred pretty much going "I've done all I can, [following is a straight quote] Master Bruce is the very definition of intractable."

Actually, let me throw those two panels in as well XD

Panel #1 Bruce as Batman in shaky panels to signify a shaky voice: Robin? Tim as Robin: Don't try to talk. Bruce as Batman: .... get me home ... get me back to the cave ...

Panel #2 Tim: How many times are we going to have this conversation Bruce? Bruce: I'm feeling fine, Tim. I promise I'll get some rest. Tim: Some rest? You died tonight. For almost two minutes you were dead.

Panel #3 Bruce: Clinically dead. You and the Electrocutioner brought me back before there was any permanent damage. We have to go out again tonight. I have leads now. The Electrocutioner called the man we are after "Galvan". That should give us a key to the pattern of murders.

Panel #4 Tim: Can you talk to him Alfred? Just get him to knock off a couple of days? Alfred: I have exhausted my powers of persuasion on this subject, Tim. Master Bruce is the very definition of intractable. The man actually made a distinction between clinical and biological death as one of his arguments. Tim: Great.

From Batman #645 (1992) as well, immediately preceding the panel above, emphasis from the comic, story by Chuck Dixon with art by Tom Lyle & Scott Hanna, image description in ALT.

@uranium-glass-dice is absolutely right, this is not a teenager that Bruce has any authority or right to try and send to bed without being given an absolutely implication-laden flaying look for even thinking he had a right or a leg to stand on about trying to.

I want less of "the Drakes were terrible people and parents and Bruce rescues poor sad Timmy" (not knocking the trope it just got old for me)

And more of Bruce suffering a hell of his own creation as he tries to figure out how to parent Timothy "latchkey kid" Drake, who doesn't respect the concept of having parental supervision in general and more specifically Bruce's authority as his new guardian at all, because Tim was basically his caretaker for the entire beginning of his tenure as Robin

Any kind of Parental Action would have Bruce choking in his own hypocrisy. Like... imagine trying to get your teenage son to go to bed when he's been putting your ass down for naps for like, years, by that point. Imagine telling him to eat healthier when at 13 years old he was helping your butler with designing your meal plan 'cause you were too depressed to eat

Bruce gently tries to get him to stop working on a case to take a break, and Tim raises a single withering eyebrow (he learned this from Alfred) and Bruce immediately shuts up. Tim only listens to Bruce when he wants to and being legally adopted by the man hasn't changed that

(And I want fics of the rest of the batfam reacting to this dynamic soooooooo bad)

[sherwoodflorists]

The whole "Lian Harper has actually been alive and has just been teleporting throughout time" retcon is objectively stupid but I will NEVER complain about it because I truly have never quite forgiven Cry for Justice for taking THIS away from me

[necrotic-nephilim]

I’m gonna be honest I didn’t realize the new 52 messed with Kon that much till I read your post and now I can’t get over the potential. I’m a Tim/Kon girly at heart so I would devour anything you write exploring the 52 vs typical Kon. Also Time being in a clone sandwich is 👌.

the new-52 messed Kon up SO bad it's ridiculous. like, to the point i would personally argue he's a completely unrelated character to pre-Flashpoint/Rebirth Kon. his personality, his suit, his origin, all different. the only real similarities are the name and powerset. and even New-52!Kon's powers are slightly different from pre-Flashpoint!Kon. New-52!Kon is a clone of a future version of Jon Lane Kent, cloned by N.O.W.H.E.R.E. to provide genetic material to Jon Lane Kent, whose body was not handling being half human/half Kryptonian well, it was a whole thing. New-52!Kon is also where we get the infamous "Kon-El means 'abomination of the house of El' and Kara basically named him a slur in Kryptonian culture" tidbit, because that is the only time that's canon. (originally Kon-El was a name gifted by Clark to accept Kon as his family way back in the 90s) he also never went by Conner Kent. New-52!Kon just straight up didn't have any real human identity or connections, outside of being very close to Tim and some Titans.

the very TLDR of Kon's history is: during post-Crisis/pre-Flashpoint, a clone called Superboy is created by CADMUS. at first, he's considered to be a clone of a dude named Paul Westfield and is not Kryptonian whatsoever, he was simply made to look like Superman and only has Tactile Telekinesis as a power. then, it was made canon that actually he was a clone of Lex Luthor and Clark Kent, but Lex hid this fact and slowly, Kon developed more Kryptonian powers. he's given the name Kon-El by Clark, and is taken in by the Kents, getting the name Conner Kent. then Flashpoint happens, we get the New-52, and we're given the above version of Kon-El, who is a clone of Jon Lane Kent, created by N.O.W.H.E.R.E. who has mostly very strong telekinesis powers and some Kryptonian powers. he's with the Titans for a bit, then at the end of the New-52, he kills some aliens and feels bad about it so he decides to fuck off and is never seen again, it's presumed he's dead but never confirmed. then Rebirth happens and DC makes Jon Kent the current Superboy, we get Supersons and all that, and it's assumed that no version of Kon-El exists. just at all. he's not around whatsoever, Jon is our only Superboy. *but* in 2019, we get a new Young Justice run and the pre-Flashpoint Kon-El is back, and we're given the explanation of: Kon got accidentally teleported to this alternate realm called Gemworld and then Flashpoint happened, and since that was a Crisis Event that changed the timeline, the poor lad got *erased* from the timeline, causing most people to *not fucking remember him* and for him to remember a timeline that no longer exists. some of the Young Justice team vaguely remember him, Ma and Pa Kent remember him, but notably, Clark *does not remember him*. it's not an issue of "Clark ignored Kon in favor of Jon" it's an issue of "Kon was erased from the timeline and didn't exist for years bc he was stuck in Gemworld and Clark just doesn't remember Kon or Kon's timeline" which to me, is far more tragic but i digress. since then, Kon has been back and is present in most significant Superfamily runs, with his own recent mini-series, Superboy: Man of Tomorrow. (which was very good btw)

so basically: the New-52 fucked Kon up so bad they wrote him out of comics for years and then brought back the pre-Flashpoint version, but never *explicitly* killed the New-52 version off. so hypothetically, it's possible that there are currently two characters existing in the DC universe named Kon-El who have been Superboy. and like i said above, one of New-52!Kon's only real significant relationships was with Tim, it was the only thing the New-52 managed to get right about Superboy, his closeness to Tim. they have a *lot* of moments that read incredibly queer. and ofc, it's just outright confirmed in Dark Crisis: Young Justice that Tim had a crush on pre-Flashpoint!Kon at some point. so while comics are intent on pretending New-52!Kon doesn't exist, i am intent on putting Tim in a clone sandwich.

because i do think it's fun to play with Tim having genuine feelings and potentially a relationship with both of them. and the fucked up nature of him not fully *remembering* his relationship with pre-Flashpoint!Kon (which is a canon thing, in YJ(2019) Tim has vague memories of Kon he's struggling to piece together and understand why he cares about this guy he doesn't recognize so much) and how frustrating that is for Tim. he knows he loves Kon, but it's all foggy besides that. and so it's even *more* fucked up if Tim dated New-52!Kon before he got emo and ran off into the unknown. obviously in canon no one has told current Kon about New-52!Kon bc comics are doing the good ol' tried and true of "sweep that shit under the rug" but for fanfic, i think it's fun to ask the question of: would anyone *tell* Kon? especially Tim? who now remembers dating both versions of them? would he admit to Kon that briefly, he had another Kon? how would Tim cope with that and move on? personality wise, they could not be more different. they dress and act and look different. they're not the same person, but there's certainly a questionable factor of Tim's dating history including two Kon-Els.

the idea i've had for a while is Tim slowly starting to date pre-Flashpoint!Kon again. it feels familiar and like home. and Tim has grieved and accepted that wherever New-52!Kon is, he doesn't want to come home, he didn't love TIm enough to stay and try. so Tim takes the Kon he has, and genuinely has a happy relationship. like for once, life is good and things almost make sense for Tim. but then, of course, New-52!Kon comes back. he decides he wants to try again and he finds Tim. only to find well. he's been replaced. and technically, he's been replaced with the *original* that he didn't even know *existed*. and if being a clone is bad enough, that just makes it a hundred times worse. because imagine knowing you're actually the second Kon-El your boyfriend who you never *technically* broke up with fell in love with. that's gotta give you some kind of complex.

so i think it's fun if both Kons try to step back and let the other Kon date Tim. both of them have reasons to feel like the "replacement" or "fake" Kon, and it makes them incredibly awkward with each other. do they count as the same person? bc they definitely don't *feel* like the same person to each other, but with weird timeline stuff, who can really say. them settling on an awkward throuple that's really meant to be Tim just dating them both but somehow they end up dating each other too is so fun for me. they both feel like imposters to the Superboy name but are so deeply in love with Tim Drake, it's the one thing truly connecting them. and then of course, Tim feels bad in that somehow, he's betraying both of them for having feelings for the other. but they make it work, with a lot of awkward angst and miscommunication. i just think it'd be fun. very difficult to write to get all the weird timeline nuances down in a way that's understandable in a fanfic (bc you can't just. infodump like i did on this post) but doable. also difficult to tag, because even though i argue these are two different characters, i'm pretty sure Ao3 groups them under the same character tag. so it'd be difficult to convey it's not *really* as selfcest-y as it would imply. comics, man. DC will never acknowledge New-52!Kon again, and he's admittedly a terrible adaptation of Kon-El, but. i think he was sort of neat in his own right and i'd *love* for DC to just inexplicably bring him back and make the current Kon deal with the consequences of all that. and them make Tim kiss them both. obviously.

[tallochar]

Just got struck by the mental image of Tim coming across someone (civilian) that has gotten hurt and Tim triaging at a glance (with the experience accrued in both No Man's Land and, especially, Our Worlds at War) that there won't be enough time to get the person to Leslie's clinic or the nearest hospital.

And then promptly knocking on the nearest window and offering a small wad of cash and the promise of replenishing what he takes, haggling for a moment or two (okay, fine he'll throw large spectrum antibiotics on top of the replenishment as well) and being handed a medical kit that has more stuff than Tim can carry in his utility belt and then getting to work on stabilizing the person until the ambulance can get there.

Because Tim knows so much about field medicine, especially after the absolute horror show that must have been being a medical auxiliary (along with the rest of YJ) during Our Worlds At War, and all of the Gothamites who went through NML would have fully stocked kits and supplies in their homes, now that they are available again and they can afford (or steal or barter for) them, even if it's just as a trauma response.

[mysterycitrus]

genuine q for the jasonheads and jason moots— has he been shown in canon text to engage in restorative community work (ie safe injection sites, exchange programs etc) or support children and sex workers specifically? essentially any long-term community planning in either new52 or rebirth canon

[buds-and-baubles]

(agent grayson 2014-2016 issue #4)

so i finished issue 4 and i have thoughts about it and issue 2 seeing as i will not be doing a seperate post for it (but have obviously read it before issue 4).

for issue 2, i did not like midnighter being with the god garden at all. i had to actually research what it is on a wiki and think the concept of it being an orbital space station run by the gardener is a blatant ripoff of bendix's stormwatch. that, and the mere fact that the gardener oversees tons of dangerous experiments and is responsible for the creation of midnighter?

that's.. literally what henry bendix did. the god garden still existing (not responsible for midnighter's creation) but instead showing midnighter's growth in his response to possible manipulation could've been a unique opportunity of where this time he chooses to stay with his friends and family when faced with that.

that is how i would've handled the god garden and its presence in midnighter's journey for this. he'd still be in his whimsy scary grinning gorey violence and downtime with friends and family but would also be working to track down the meta bio-weapons alone and with his loved ones while they help him against the god garden.

or interesting idea: the god garden is targeting apollo instead and it's his plot against it. he shows off his inner strength and how he is unable to be manipulated away from his friends and family and gets a plot of him absolutely dismantling every shred of the god garden. i almost prefer this second idea more as it would've given apollo more time on pages.

issue 2 for me described by a more sleep deprived and less pained version because of meds version of myself was 'stinky' so no 'icky' garden. also, i think tom king utilizes cannibalism in far too many plot lines and they are never well done. i'm not saying it shouldn't exist in media, just that it shouldn't be written by someone who doesn't know how to write it (or women for that matter).

as for issue 4, i genuinely had to take a break from being angry due to the sexualization of dick grayson. having a woman take pictures of him shirtless without his consent to show to other women made me grind my teeth. when they then were suggesting finding his room to do a 'man-ty raid', i actually screamed and had to skip ahead to the page for midnighter and go back to finish reading later.

the unfortunate cherry on top of a seeley written cardboard cake covered in toothpaste as frosting was making dick flip around and the women who were sexualizing chase after him and continue to do so. and what happens? dick is punished for it. the one who took pictures to invade his privacy and treat him like a piece of meat got extra credit in hadrian's school. just. ugh.

as for midnighter's presence, he was limited to a page this time and he wasn't alone! andrew aka the dc version of apollo was there for the first time i've seen since my impromptu reading of stormwatch vol 3.

midnighter is interrogating someone regarding another meta bio-weapon in the form of 'the heart' by dangling him over the edge of a skyscraper when apollo arrives stating the man he's threatening 'doesn't know' and that he (midnighter) did his part. that it was time to come back to stormwatch and him. also, to let the guy go.

midnighter does exactly that by allowing him to fall which andrew– sorry, apollo states he has to go catch him which midnighter agrees and says 'you know i'll be gone by the time you get back'. page ends with apollo flying down to catch the falling guy while calling midnighter 'so. damn. stubborn.'

oh, they still do not understand you, (sun) king. they would not have survived your original self so they had to alter you. shame. unfortunately for those who didn't have the guts to do it, i'm doing it anyways!

so stormwatch/stormwatch prime still exists in my transfer idea but it's the one run by jackson king and christine trelane with the original roster and newer people (winter, fahrenheit, fuji, hellstrike, etc.). what're they doing post-transfer? beats the fuck out of me. someone whose primary focus is stormwatch can go wild with it, i'd love to hear what someone would do.

as for how i would've handled it for apollo and midnighter? whether i have the plot be focused on the original like midnighter or apollo for the god garden, they're still juggling both the 'organ race' of meta bio-weapons in the forms of organs on top of the god garden. knowing them, the god garden was actually probably only present for a single issue as apollo and or midnighter brought it crashing to the ground in an ashen heap.

they would've gone there to interrogate the man regarding the missing meta bio-weapon in the form of 'the heart' crashing somewhere (which midnighter was tracking). midnighter would be dangling the man over the skyscraper and when the man looked at apollo to perhaps convince midnighter not to drop him, he found a smile that was a mix of sympathy and something matching in midnighter's outstretched grin.

when the man is dropped from the building, the two simply talk about the whole dropping a penny from a skyscraper debate while comparing what happens to the penny versus the falling man. they then chat about what they're gonna do for dinner, about what jenny q. and the rest of the authority are up to before they kiss.

a kiss with midnighter clinging to the skyscraper and apollo hovering from the sky, distant text below the building saying something like 'splat' as the man hit the ground.

[ravenlilyrose]

You know all those time travel fics where it’s like: “I can’t blame them for that because they haven’t done it (yet)”?

Reading comics is a lot like that sometimes.

“I can’t be annoyed with them for that; they didn’t do that in this continuity.”

“I can’t hold that against them; that only happens in one of the tv shows.”

“Wait, they actually haven’t hurt that person; that’s only in the other canon.”

And fandom really doesn’t help because someone will refer to an event and you’ll wrap it into your understanding of a character only to discover weeks later that it actually only applies to one of the half-dozen versions of that character.

Anyway, DC I love you, but you drive me completely nuts.

[everwalldigan]

Anon is just misconstruing people taking the fact that dick wasn’t around a lot during Jason’s run as robin and extrapolating that jason had a reason to be bitter about it as maligning dick. NeverMind the way dick fans love to give him angst with the “my mom gave me robin” thing even though that’s like a thing that got added one time, and dick gave Jason robin in a box their first interaction post-crisis. And that that box was deliberately drawn exactly like and intended to evoke when dick gave Jason robin in a box pre-crisis, when Jason was about to debut his own costume and persona and dick went out of his way to ask Jason to be robin. Like okay either dick didn’t have any resentment that could be picked up on, voiced or not, about his mom giving him robin and Jason stealing it, or you’re making your fave a boring 20something who beatifically suffered in perfect silence while a teen trampled on the memory of their dead mom. Which is it.

Like there are out of universe reasons dick wasn’t around when Jason was robin, Jason only existed as robin so that dick could spend all his time with the Teen Titans and Batman could still have a robin, so Nw didn’t cross over into Batman and Robin much, he did it quite a few times after Jason died before Tim came, and Jason’s post crisis robin run was pretty short so there wasn’t time because a lot of the time happened in time skips, but it doesn’t change the fact that dick mentored Tim and wasn’t there for Jason, and that Jason was kept by Batmans side so usually in Gotham, occasionally with Batman when he was doing justice league stuff, joining the Teen Titans once to help when dick was in trouble, doesn’t compare to Tim’s heavy involvement with YJ and TT. Dick fans are just soooo sensitive they can’t handle someone looking at those canon dynamics and considering their possible emotional impact, justified or not, and they especially can’t handle a what-if that explores how it would be if dick were mean. Like if there people hate fandom and alternate characterizations so much they should just log off or stay out of the tag, and never read else-worlds either 🙄🙄🙄

Tbh (as a dick fan myself, I came into the fandom and imprinted on him like a baby duck) I think dick had all the reason to be a bitch to Bruce and by extension cold/standoffish to Jason. Is it a shitty thing to do that to a kid who just wanted to have a home? Yes it is but 1. I don’t think dick was really intending to hurt Jason, I think he was so hurt and angry by Bruce’s actions that he didn’t really think about the position Jason was in. And 2. I think he’s allowed to be flawed and that doesn’t take away from his character at all

This is exactly why I feel intimidated when trying to delve into the comics cause it’s like, whatever iteration you pick you’re never right and there’s always someone who’s gonna say “well I think that iteration is bad, the one I like is more true to the character” if that makes sense. Like I like the concept of Robin being smth dick created with the memories of his parents to help people while making his family’s colours a symbol of hope. And with that concept comes the hurt of being essentially fired from the position you created and then finding out your mentor had just handed over that symbol to someone he basically just met. Like I think dick obviously does have regrets with the way he treated Jason and I think that guilt would manifest into him investing more into a relationship with Tim and not letting history repeat itself.

But then again, I’m still quite new to the fandom which is why I mostly keep out of discussions and stay with silly parodies/scenarios so if I misconstrued any of the characters in a major way… my bad

[lesbian-cowpoke]

Here is some fun math!

Barbara Gordon first appeared in Detective Comics #359, making her debut as Batgirl. It was published January 1967.

21 years (and 6 months) later, Barbara retired as batgirl in Batgirl Special #1, published June 1988.

Barbara was Batgirl for 21 years.

One year later, she is Oracle, appearing in Suicide Squad #28, published January 1989.

Flashpoint (starting July 2011) rebooted the universe and she was Batgirl again.

Making Barbara Gordon Oracle for 22 years.

She was Oracle longer than she was Batgirl in real life.

[mzminola]

Preboot Batkids and the Batman mantle:

Barbara Gordon: most similar to original Batman for spying & controlling tendencies.

Dick Grayson: most accepted by other heroes as legitimate successor to Batman mantle.

Helena Bertinelli: actually made herself into The Bat of her own volition when Bruce left Gotham after the quake.

Cassandra Cain: most likely successor to uphold Batman as a symbol of fear & hope.

Jason Todd: most obsessed with Gotham and closest match to world tour of earning skills.

Stephanie Brown: most likely to act the same as Bruce as Batman.

Tim Drake: running away from the Batman mantle the hardest despite Bruce trying to drag him into it.

Damian al Ghul-Wayne: thinks he's supposed to be Batman someday the most.

[thatstheproblemwithnapkinman]

the canon i refuse to believe is that the lazarus pit brought jason todd back to life

fuck that

i know it’s the post-flashpoint canon but idgaf i hate it and i’m pretending it never happened and relying solely on batman annual #25

[zahri-melitor]

Have you ever considered a B&R 2009 masterpost; the good, the bad & the ugly?

You mean, aside from the fic I wrote firmly nailing some of my theses up against the title itself?

I have thought about it and made comments various places, but there’s a number of reasons I’ve not done so:-

I aim to be generous and polite about my opinions on various runs when I'm reviewing them and focus on the good as much as possible. I know I do not always succeed, but I think there's value in highlighting what was done well or has potential.

I’d have to reread Morrison to be fair about it, and honestly I have an annotated list of at least several dozen other titles I want to read more than I want to reread B&R09.

I am aware there is a cohort of Damian fans that are very fond of it as it contains the majority of existing stories about Dick and Damian’s time as Batman and Robin. I like being able to have cordial discussions with people who have different views to me, especially when we overlap at other points, and I’m aware some of my views about the title are pretty critical of various decisions.

To talk critically about B&R09 it is unavoidable that I have to talk about Jason, something I tend to avoid doing publicly for a multitude of reasons.

Do people really want the bit where I start ranting about the Aaron Langstrom art problem in an extended format? Because I already have posts where I do that, and I think I’m probably the only person who deeply cares about the problems B&R09 causes Aaron Langstrom.

Some of the run’s worst problems are when you line up the events with things happening in other titles, and the fact that Morrison refused to acknowledge any storytelling happening in other titles made the implications of their writing decisions far, far worse.

That said, if there’s genuine interest, I'd be willing to put something together, but it's likely to take me some time.

[danothan]

Do you like Barry and Iris ship?

my westallen tag is sparse, but yes i love them! one of the handful of comics i own is abt barry being unable to touch iris or else the world will explode. and then the world exploded*. they are sooo 🫶

also i see this panel everywhere and it always makes me crazy. the way they look at each other. iris playing with his hair. barry getting his hair played with. the absolutely horrendous flirting that’s somehow working for them. get a room good GOD

*they put it back together in time dw

[necrotic-nephilim]

PLEASE MAKE A MASTERPOST I watched titans Just for the gay shit and it delighted me. and then Hush and Titans Tower and then the GK game.....there's so much

THE WORST PART IS MY TAGS GOT CUT OFF ON THAT POST. i had other tags talking how absolutely gay JayTim comes across in Titans, in the clips i've seen. having Jason save Tim and then go on to train him is... an interesting direction to go with them but the clip was so gay i had to send it to my partner so they could witness it. had the classic "let's go a few rounds" shit and *everything*. like it was baffling and if it wasn't "batcest" i do think it would've taken the fandom by storm as a ship. i have stopped and started that show at least three times bc i always get too frustrated to get past s1, but for JayTim, i think i gotta.

making a masterpost of every significant JayTim relationship throughout DC media wouldn't be *too* hard, i feel like. i've done one focusing just on the New-52, and i've covered all the pre-Flashpoint ground through various posts here. ironically the hardest thing would be Rebirth, because i can't think of many Rebirth era comics i've read with them significantly interacting outside of Robin: Knight Terrors. and i'd have to actually get through Titans.

also for the sake of completion, Wayne Family Adventures would probably get its own section. which is the real torture for me bc i have beef with WFA.

but. i *could* do it. and it would take me like a month, it'd be such a fun pet project. i think exploring what seems to be a recurring consistent theme across every universe could be incredibly fascinating. what similarities and differences exist and what tends to cause those similarities and differences. it'd be a magnum opus. but more chaotic. and gay.

anyway you're right. now i gotta. it'll take me three business weeks to catalog all of it and also add meaningful commentary. but i can and i will.

[tallochar]

A song that I am 1000% sure Tim would have played while training in the Cradle if he'd been in less of a hurry and has already definitely played in his earbuds while training in Mount Justice back in 1998: One Week by Barenaked Ladies.

All Young Justice members know the lyrics by heart to this day and it's one song they will all sing together at least once per every karaoke night they do.

[sing-me-under]

Now that I’m finally catching up on reading the comics with Damian, I think I must admit that he’s probably my favorite bat boy. I want to hug him. He deserves a hug. Stephanie is still my favorite bat all around, but Stephanie AND Damian together just makes me very happy.