#out of Doriath

[hellofeanor]

Objectively the funniest Reddit post I've ever seen.

[lyrien-arts]

Okay phew!! My biggest Tolkien-related art to date, part of a school assignment. featuring Mablung and Beleg and my OCs and one unnamed guy.

top row, left to right: Mablung, Lirien, unnamed elf, Taer, Faelon, Idhrenes, Beleg

bottom row, left to right: Pelinel, Pethron, Calithil

[flying-mochis]

I just finished the Silmarillion so now it's time for me to loose my mind trying to discern the timeline changes in Rings of Power

mostly I was trying to figure out which "war" it was that Celeborn went missing in

but first I wanted to ground myself by figuring out when Finrod died- except that also isn't clear...

This is a very long, unedited stream of consciousness post, so I'll put it under Keep Reading. I also didn't really fact check any of this just going off my recent memory of just reading the Silmarillion so- If I got stuff wrong...woops

TLDR: Though Finrod originally dies in the Silmarillian during the Beren and Luthien, I think the RoP writers have changed his death to be sometime after the defeat of Morgoth as he's hunting Sauron. I think Celeborn went missing sometime before Finrod died, either in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (before the Fall of Doriath) or in the War of Wrath (the final defeat of Morgoth). Ultimately who knows but I'm excited to see what they do :)

In the Silmarillian, Finrod dies around late year 400 in the 1st Age protecting Beren in Of Beren and Luthien. He is killed by Sauron, as Sauron throws them in like a pit of death thingy.

but in Rings of Power, when Galadriel is giving exposition in the beginning, she basically says 'Then Morgoth was drafted, but Sauron continued to cause problems, and my brother vowed to hunt him down, then he died.' So it sounds like RoP Finrod survived the War of Wrath against Morgoth, but then died hunting Sauron afterwards.

This change would call into question how the events of Beren and Luthien played out in the RoP timeline- I guess it's not necessary for Finrod to die into order for that story to still have worked? Like maybe Luthien saved both of them or maybe Finrod never went with them. But...Part of the fall of Doriath in Hurin getting Finrods fancy necklace from Mim the dwarf after he's taken over Finrod's Kingdome in his absence- so if Finrod survived up to the fall of Doriath and past that- how would that work? I'm sure it could, there are ways to work around it so the story can still play out with those changes- or maybe they changed more major parts of the story like the fall of Doriath! That would be bold but not out of the question.

Maybe it's also possible that Finrod did still die during the Beren and Luthien story but that just happened after the defeat of Morgoth? IDK if that makes sense, because then how would Thingol have gotten the silmarill that leads to the fall of Doriath and all that stuff with Earendil and Elwing-? that has a lot more continuity changes so less likely.

Ok, moving on from Finrod. His death is at least canon from the Silmarillion, but Celeborn going missing is not. Or at least, it isn't mentioned. But one thing about Galadriel and Celeborn is that they were retconned into the story after most of the Silmarillion was written, so their presence it is extremely spotty and sometime inconsistent. It's basically mentioned that they fall in love when Galadriel and her brothers go to Doriath and she stays with him in Doriath while Finrod finds his kingdom, Nargothrond. Then she's mentioned talking to Melian like once after that right before the Dagor Bragollach (one time Morgoth surprise attacks a bunch of elf cities) and then...They basically disappear for the rest of the book until it starts talking about the rings of power in the 2nd Age-

So...There's already a lot of missing spots in there story. That's one of the reasons I think it's cool they made Galadriel a protagonist in RoP, because what she's doing in those times is very vague, though more so in the 1st Age than the 2nd- but her character could still shed some light on what she was doing then- Especially when Celeborn is introduced, cuz that's gonna require some background explanations.

So that's all just to provide the context that there is barely any context for what those two were doing before RoP takes place.

Another note about possible timelines for Celeborn going missing is its relation to Finrod's death. This is not confirmed, but I've always worked with the assumption that Celeborn went missing before Finrod died. This is based on some factors- such as Galadriel's seemingly more cheery nature when she calls him a "silver clam" before he goes off to battle---This doesn't sound like the traumatized, hardened Galadriel we know from her response to Finrod's death. Also, as other's have pointed out, if Finrod had died before Celeborn went to war and Galadriel had already become a warrior, why wouldn't she have gone to war with Celeborn? It's possible they were just going to different locations, but I don't think she would chide him to not join the fight is she was also doing so.

Running with that assumption- If Finrod did die saving Beren as he did in the Silmarillion, that means Celeborn would've gone missing in some battle before then, maybe the Dagor Bagollach. This would mean he would have missed out all everything with Beren and Luthien, everything with Turin, and everything else with the fall of Doriath at the hands of dwarfs and elves. Which I think would be a shame. There is still conflict in having missed out on a significant tragedy, but I think having him witness all those tragedies would be more interesting- and his bitterness towards dwarfs would be more understandable if he was physically there to witness their betrayal and slaughter of his people.

As I've said, its possible and probably likely that they'll change it so Finrod died much later, and this is another one for my reasons for thinking that. Aside from the other plot holes that creates, Finrod dying after the defeat of Morgoth opens up to possibilities for which battle Celeborn went missing in, so I'll continue with that assumption.

So, let's start with what Rings of Power canon we know. Not a lot, but in Celeborn's one mention in season 1, Galadriel says "When he went to [the War], I chided him." So he didn't go missing on some personal quest or whatever, he specifically went off to fight in "the war". One issue this raises is that Celeborn is from Doriath, and Doriath doesn't give a fuck. Doriath does not send any of its people off to any battles in the Silmarillion until it starts falling apart. The closest we get to Doriath elves fighting is when they hunt down the dwarves that killed Thingol and then defend themselves from the dwarves and the sons of Feanor.

One way to get around this could be making it so Celeborn and Galadriel left Doriath at some point to operate on their own. Maybe they went to live with Finrod in Nargothrond (I think it is mentioned that Galadriel stayed with Finrod there for a while, but Celeborn isn't mentioned? And I don't remember if that's in the Silmarillion or one of the unfinished tales- which are more subject to flexible canon). In which case, Celeborn could've gone off with Finrod to one of the battles- This is an interesting idea as it could show Galadriel and Celeborn being more independent and maybe dissenting from Thingol after his sus decisions with Beren and Luthien. The next battle after that story would be the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the unsuccessful battle with Morgoth right before the Fall of Doriath. The problem with him going missing in that battle, again, would be him missing out on all the drama of the Fall of Doriath.

The second explanation for Celeborn going to war would be that he goes to fight after the Fall of Doriath. It makes sense that he would be more willing to fight after seeing the destruction of his people, even if that wasn't directly at the hands of Morgoth. Galadriel's joking disposition may not make as much sense in a setting after her husband home was destroyed and his family was slaughtered- but maybe everything still felt lighter back then as long as they were together. The most likely battle he went missing in after that would then be the War of Wrath itself, the final defeat of Morgoth.

Another possibility is he went missing during the Fall of Doriath, but that wasn't much of war as it was a siege, and I feel like Galadriel would have at least tried to help out in some way in those circumstances.

Overall, the two most likely battles I see him going missing in are the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (the 2nd to last attack on Morgoth) or the War of Wrath (the final defeat of Morgoth). The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, or some earlier battle, may make more sense for Galadriel to not go Celeborn as they hadn't experienced the tragic loss of Doriath yet, but I guess the same could be said for her not going with Finrod later.

I think I prefer him at least surviving up to the War of Wrath, as that means he was around to see the Fall of Doriath, and experience all the ~fun~ trauma of that, which is one of the things that could make him more unique as a character.

There is also the question of if Celebrian is even born yet and if so, where she is. As Galadriel and Celeborn's lives are so vague in the first two ages, so is Celebrian, their daughter. I don't think we know for sure when she was born, but I believe it is mentioned in Unfinished Tales that Celebrian was alive and with them by the time they first went to Eregion. Obviously much has changed as neither Celeborn nor Celebrian were present for the fall of Eregion in Rings of Power.

Personally, I don't believe Celebrian is even born yet in RoP. As other have pointed out, Galadriel starts the series as one who has lost everything, one who has no ties and nothing left to lose. This is fundamental to her hunt of Sauron and her eventual fall to the manipulation of Sauron. It doesn't track that she would be doing all this while she has a living and present daughter to worry about or keep her grounded. It's possible both Celeborn and Celebrian are missing. I feel like should would have mentioned that to Theo when she told him about Celeborn, but she's also managed to only mention her supposedly dead husband once in 16 episodes, so clearly she's a master at putting those particular traumas in boxes to never be spoken of. I feel like having both of them be missing to show up later would be a bit too cluttered and it'd be smoother to just say she isn't born yet, but anything's possible.

I'm pretty sure the "canon" about Celebrian being born before the fall of Eregion is from Unfinished Tales anyway? Which I think of as more like a draft of Tolkien's ideas for the family, not canon in the sense of the SIlmarillion or the published stories.

Lots of "canon" falls apart around Galadriel and her family as they were added in so late and Tolkien seemed to die before writing his "final" story for them. And this is an adaptation, they aren't meant to follow "canon" like the gospel anyway, as we've seen. As I've said, the very lack of solid story around Galadriel and her families experiences through the first two ages is more exciting than anything, as it leaves so much room for the writers to get creative them and write a thrilling story that we haven't seen before. This is a chance to shine light on characters that fall under the status of "unfinished" in Tolkien ever-changing world, such as Celeborn. The only "canon" (Silmarillion) information we have on Celeborn for the 1st and 2nd Age is that he lived in Doriath during the 1st Age, he was somehow related to Thingol and later Nimloth, and he and Galadriel were in love. There's other supplementary, unpublished notes that either expand on these traits or straight up contradict them.

Based on letters nearing his death, Tolkien was clearly still thinking of how Galadriel's families story could go, but as he never "finished" with them, if such a thing is even possible, we'll never get that "canon" story from him. So it's up to us- or, in this case, it's up to the writers of the Rings of Power. So we'll see!

Wow, that was a long-winded way to say "I dunno"

[imakemywings]

Orodreth: So how is Thingol handling being an empty-nester?

Beleg: This is Turin, his new mortal son. We're working on getting mom and sister too.

Orodreth: Gotcha.

[feanorianethicsdepartment]

refugees do not, in fact, stop being refugees because you don’t like their leaders

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

some comment on my fic just claimed that "the iathrim didn't regard morgoth as an enemy," and that the second kinslaying "served the common good" by destroying doriath - apparently a "good-for-nothing state that was all but an ally to morgoth" - and by sending the silmaril on its path to valinor... that silmarillion copy was never cracked open

[softlysilverfountainsfall]

Bear with me while I rules-lawyer the spirit of the Oath of Feanor because I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Maedhros did.

The Oath is specifically targeted at anyone who "hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh, finding keepeth or afar casteth a Silmaril" which I do not believe means anyone who touches a Silmaril, despite "in hand taketh" because all the other stipulations are targeted specifically at people who keep the Silmarils away from the Feanorians, by hiding, hoarding, keeping, or even throwing it far away. It would also just be bizarre if, say, a Feanorian follower returned the Silmaril to their lords and the Oath required that they kill them.

However, the strongest evidence for the Oath only applying (or being interpreted to only apply) to people who deliberately withhold the Silmarils from the Feanorians are Maedhros'/the Feanorians' actions before the 2nd and 3rd kinslayings: in both cases, they send a letter demanding the return of the Silmaril. Now, if by touching/posessing the Silmaril, the deaths of Thingol, Dior, and then Elwing are already demanded by the oath, why in the world would they send a letter (losing part of the element of surprise), not even to declare war, but demanding the Silmaril's return? Sending that letter implies that this can still be resolved peacefully if the Silmaril is handed over.

It's my interpretation that Maedhros/the Feanorians are rules-lawyering this tiny loophole in the oath (regardless of whether the oath is present magically/compulsive/just their own dedication) by deliberately closing their eyes to the fact that the current holder of the Silmaril definitely believes it to be their possession and is deliberately keeping it from the Feanorians---which lasts as long as that holder hasn't confirmed that desire.

After all, Thingol, Dior, and Elwing didn't steal the Silmaril, they received it from family members. If the Feanorians ignore the intent behind their keeping it (before that intent is confirmed by the holder's response to the Feanorian's demand), then they could consider Thingol et al to simply...coincidentally...happen to be holding a Silmaril, not possessing it for themselves and therefore not liable to the oath.

Actually, one line in the text from after Thingol refuses to return the Silmaril even hints that even after that, the situation might be salvageable if the Silmaril is returned by free will: "Celegorm and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his people if they came victorious from war [this is pre-Nirnaeth], and the jewel were not surrendered of free will" (emphasis mine, Of the Fifth Battle, The Silmarillion).

Of course, the Oath drives the Feanorians to reclaim the Silmarils, and so I view the letters to Thingol, Dior, and Elwing as last-ditch attempts at solving this peacefully (via exploiting the above loophole). (Note: this is not necessarily meant to make the Feanorians more sympathetic, this is just me trying to figure out why they sent those letters.) However, this also dooms them to a kinslaying, because as soon as Dior and Elwing reject returning the Silmaril, they have explicitly or implicitly claimed it for themselves and have now "in hand taketh" the Silmaril instead of just touching it and happening to have it around, which means their deaths are now demanded under the Oath.

[waitingforsecretsouls]

Disclaimer that I might be wrong about this, only personal impressions etc., but I feel like there exists a tendency to often depict first age Galadriel as not only particularly distanced but also disdainful towards the rest of her kin, particularly regarding Alqualondë. Which is very interesting to me, if you consider that she's the one who gets a scene of direct and pointed questioning with Melian about the finer points of the exile and lies (even if by omission) to her face. Which occurs after she had already established a stable acquaintanceship with her.

Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth. -Chapter 13: OF THE RETURN OF THE NOLDOR

She furthermore also seems committed to letting bygones be bygones:

And on a time Melian said: ‘There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin. That I can see in you, but all else is hidden from me; for by no vision or thought can I perceive anything that passed or passes in the West: a shadow lies over all the land of Aman, and reaches far out over the sea. Why will you not tell me more?’ ‘For that woe is past,’ said Galadriel; ‘and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, though still hope may seem bright.’ -Chapter 15: OF THE NOLDOR IN BELERIAND

Which is not to say that she couldn't have born a grudge about Alqualondë, but rather that she prioritized unity among the Noldor and Sindar over acting on said grudge and made the deliberate choice to try and move on, even at the cost of her personal integrity (since she presumable started her tutelage while the first kinslaying was still kept a secret which is...audacious to say the least).

[brethilach]

euughh just saw someone say that Celegorm kidnapping Lúthien to force her into marriage was "out of character" and just. I understand the urge to smooth the edges off your blorbo's flaws or whatever but if you've gotten to the point where you genuinely believe the author's portrayal of his own character isn't in line with canon then I think you just misunderstood what you read

[sakasakiii]

Hi!

I love your work!! Your art is very pretty. Do you have a specific idea of how old everyone is ? Do you lean more towards canon or do you have your own dates in mind ? If don’t wanna a answer it’s ok!

Hope u have a nice day

(Remember to drink water!)

hiiii nonnie!!! thank you for checking in, and im happy u like the stuff i put out!! when it comes to ages, it's difficult to answer sometimes bc of the way professor tolkien's timeline is-- it makes gauging one singular place where most of the cast can be compared something that makes my tired brain go 😵🤧🤕 but i love the prompt youve given! and thus heres my attempt at it

with most of my tolkien stuff, i always try to stick to canon wherever possible emphasis is on try lmao and the topic of ages is one such place. i do make exceptions to the Professor's canon sometimes for a few reasons: 1) i like some of the scrapped ideas in his drafts, or 2) i just prefer other options. with ages, i think the only charas with canon-established ages i deviated from are fingolfin, finrod, turgon, and aredhel. i try to keep cases like these minimal tho, so i hope it doesn't bother anyone too much... 👉👈

anyways i figured just dropping a list of numbers would be kinda boring to look at so heres an illustrated guide to what the ~rough~ ages of the finweans are in my head whenever i write or draw. Y.T. 1495 (the year Finwe dies) is the controlled medium ive used to enable a fair comparison of the Finweans

note: "born Y.T. xxx" means this is the canon date of birth listed on Tolkien Gateway. "est. born [xxx]" means this is a noncanon estimate:

the First Age gets a lot more muddled from there due to the hullaballoo of everything going on, so ill only be including the doriathrim and a few other denizens of nargothrond:

it's mostly the older elves that are more undefined/vague with their ages (i.o.w. others like elwing, earendil, the peredhil twins, and most Men all have set dates of birth), so they're all i'll be doing for now. but it's that vagueness which makes hcing all the more enjoyable, isn't it! plus since we’re on this subject, under the cut are just a few headcanons and musings ive had that i wanted to put somewhere 😙

Finarfin and Earwen were born within months of each other! Finwe and Olwe made a Really Big Deal out of when they found out their wives were pregnant at the same time. As a result, the two were often sent on many playdates with each other to “bolster healthy relations” between the Noldor and the Teleri. It wasn’t an arranged marriage situation, but I like to think they were goofy for each other from the start… Resulting in the two eventually getting married as soon as they came of age, the fastest out of all of Finwe’s kids to do so. 

The reason the Ambarussa are significantly younger than the other Finweans (especially the Feanorians-- there’s a 100 Valian year gap between them and Curufin alone!) is because I imagine they were accidental babies that even Feanor didn’t expect to conceive. too bad morgoth said "its morgin time!" and started Messing Things Up shortly afterwards.....

Anaire was Lalwen's good friend long before she married Fingolfin; they met through Lalwen who wingmanned Fingolfin the whole time. i like think Anaire'd be the best out of all the wives at keeping good, healthy bonds with all the women of her family :DD

luthien's potential 姐姐/big sis dynamic with all the younger doriathrim elves is something i daydream about a lot 😌 but sometimes the fact that she's older than finarfin keeps me up at night

this has been really fun, so thanks again for asking-- annnd yessir, i am chugging water as i write this so you better be doing the same ❤️ have a great start to your week!

[thelien-art]

For the Valentine request; there's never enough Galadriel and Celeborn art imho

You know what?? I think you´re right!

Okay, so I have a headcannon about Galadriel being the tallest of Finarfins children. I´m not going to explain more other than she´s mommy and probably always wears something with innerboob showing.

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

I have a lack of sympathy for Thingol, Dior, and Elwing and here’s why:

Ngl, i’d feel more sympathy for dior, elwing, thingol, etc if they didn’t all collectively decide a shiny rock, that they had absolutely no claim over and kept from their rightfull owners, over their own people.

Sons of feanor: hey, can we have our father’s greatest creation, that morgoth killed out grandfather for, back?

Thingol, Dior, Elwing: yeah, about that... see, it’s very shiny and i like it very much so imma just... keep it.

Sons of feanor: but it literally does not belong to you??? Stealing it doesn’t make it yours? And it’s literally one of the only things we have left of our trees of light? And once more our father created it? And it was stolen from him? You should really just give it back?

Thingol, Dior, Elwing: but it’s mine now. I have it.

Sons of feanor: you are aware that we have sworn an oath, a soul binding oath, that forces us to kill and get rid of any one and anything in our way to get them back, right? Like, we don’t want to, but we will due to this oath.

Thingol, Dior, Elwing: so?

Sons of feanor: we will literally resort to kinslaying to get these jewels back due to the oath, never mind that it literally does not belong to you and is our father’s creation, holds the light of our trees, and caused the death of our grandfather. Listen, we are trying to resolve this peacefully, bc we also do not want to resort to kinslaying, so give us OUR thing back. You are not beholden to an oath. Not that that should matter. Literally GIVE US OUR SHIT BACK.

Thingol, Dior, Elwing: nah

Sons of feanor: oh my fucking god *kinslays* we fucking warned you you dumbass! *kinslays again* all you had to do was give us our thing back, it literally does not belong to you. *kinslays* we fucking told you about the oath, but did you listen? No! Do you even care about your own people? Like, what is this shit?

Thingol, Dior, Elwing: *dies* *cries about how it’s unfair*

(Look, do i acknowledge and understand that what the feanorians did with the kinslaying is wrong? Yeah. Do i also acknowledge and understand that Thingol, Dior, and Elwing could have avoided all of this if they had just given the jewels that they had not right to back? Absolutely. Even ignoring how they had no right to the silmarils in the first place, as leaders of their people, they did not do right by their people by putting a shiny rock over their people (especially considering they were not under oath) especially considering they were given the option to resolve it peacefully and were given warning)

(To be completely honest, Thingol, Dior, and Elwing continuously acting as if they had a right to the silmarils is very much like how the museums dig up ancient tombs, pilfers the treasures, take it all to their land and display it, all without a second thought to the people and descendants of the rightful owners, and disregard the cultural value for the original people, and thenget bitchy when the people of the country and culture want their history ancestors possessions back)

The only one i’ll give lenience to is elwing bc she was young, had not parental guidance, and withholding the jewel was probably also partly driven by spite, but Thingol and Dior have no leg to stand on what so ever.

Lastly, i’d like to state that this is what I think, this is my opinion and you are absolutely free and welcome to have your own. If you have a different opinion, feel free to post it on your own time and in your own post.

[bretwalda-lamnguin]

🐅 with any narn character

🐅(characterisation): Túrin is musically talented! From the Lay of the Children of Húrin:

“in weaving song he had a minstrel’s mastery, but mirth was not in it, for he mourned the misery of the men of Hithlum”

I feel like it’s a thing that goes ignored, Túrin isn’t just some walking disaster who can’t do anything right. He’s a very capable and talented, and at times can be very charismatic. But there’s so much to imagine with this in particular! Young Túrin singing for Thingol and Melian, or playing music for Nellas to dance to as they play at being Daeron (or even Beren) and Lúthien! Beleg first noticing how beautiful he’s become when he sings for him. There's also the Laer Cú Beleg!

On an angstier note (heh!) because I’m evil, Túrin singing Nienor songs from his childhood while she’s recovering. She can’t say she’s ever heard them before, yet their strange familiarity comforts her…

[imakemywings]

Aspec Arda Week Day 1: Asexual | Daeron

piccrew here

[maironsmaid]

At the threshold of Doriath

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

you guys know the talon-lock freefall death spiral bald eagles do for their courtship ritual? i think dior and nimloth had the same energy in their relationship