#musical theatre theory

[crooked-wasteland]

I'm very much looking forward to your Stolitz/HB is a bad musical essay. I've had my own thoughts on HH being subpar as far as a musical goes but never really felt like I had the knowledge on musicals as a narrative style nor as a music genre to do it much justice; excited to see you tackle the topic in regards to HB! 🫡

I absolutely understand the hesitation. It isn't like I personally have a masters in Musical Theory, but I think we as a generation have had musical theories subliminally inculcated into our psyche from the sheer amount of exposure that we can understand what makes a good musical and recognize when those qualities are simply not there. No one has reservations talking about how bad Wish was as a musical, and what I am finding in my own deep-dive for this essay is that Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel suffer the same issues as Wish. The lead in music being Sam Haft who is not a musical theatre composer and frankly doesn't understand how musical theatre functions on a fundamental level.

For a small preview of a major point in my essay that I plan on expanding much more, Helluva and Hazbin completely lack an understanding of musical diegesis. This may be a new term for some. Diegesis is most often referenced in how music interplays within a movie or film.

Most of the time the music is not diegetic to the story. When we have big moments in our media with that swelling emotional music, we don't think that there is an orchestra just off screen playing this music for these characters. We are aware the music is an external component to the story. In this way, the music is most often not diegetic to the narrative.

Of course that isn't always the case. Take for example Guardians of the Galaxy and how the films utilize their soundtrack. Starting the movie off, we hear Come and Get Your Love as we would hear any other soundtrack, only for Peter Quill to remove his headphones and the music can be heard playing faintly over them. That makes the song Diegetic.

Another example is Shrek. All of the pop songs in the films are non-diegetic, but there are diegetic songs in, say, Shrek 2 with the Fairy Godmother singing Holding Out for a Hero.

To pull back to more direct inspiration, Happy Day in Hell is nothing more than an embarrassing parody of Beauty and the Beast's opening number Belle. However, Belle is non-diegetic. The Townspeople are singing their thoughts and feelings, but that is not what literally is happening. And Belle turning at the end isn't supposed to be taken as literally the town coming to a halt just to follow her and talk about how weird she is, but that the town as a collective sees her as an outsider and she gets that sixth sense sort of feeling of people judging her. Because they are, they just don't say anything. That is a key crux for the film.

Every single song in Helluva Boss and Hazbin are diegetic. We know this because Vaggie tells Charlie not to sing and we are told by Angel Dust explicitly that Charlie is, in fact, physically singing. Stolas' song ends with Stella telling Stolas to stop singing. Striker, Verosika, Moxxie, Stolas, Fizzarolli, Glitz & Glam, and Asmodeus all sing as a part of a literal performance.

In fact, Hazbin goes out of its way to shoehorn in-universe reasons to have a song rather than just allowing the world to exist in that heightened reality. Additionally, by having the songs explicitly being legitimate songs in the world, we actually face more issues with the world building because on one hand Vaggie is begging Charlie to not sing and is struggling with the secondhand embarrassment, only for the denizens of Hell to join in? Except the world has established that singing is not something people just do. It is the one time the criticism of "Why is everyone singing" and "How do you all know the words?" Are legitimately valid questions.

This all screams insecure and shows a clear discomfort with the genre of musical theatre as a whole. There is no depth of understanding how music in musicals function, just like Wish.

That isn't even touching on how San Haft's lyricism is identical to Wish's worst numbers with how he just borks the internal structure and meter of his songs.

[leebee287]

one of my headcanons/theories:

Hatchetfield resembles Drowsy Town - the Waylons could have built the landmarks to reflect the layout of Drowsy Town, and each black altar aligns to a location in the Black that in the centre of an area a Lord in Black might rule over.

The Starlight Theatre would obviously be the centre of Pokey’s domain; Wiggly’s is the mill/Lakeside Mall; Tinky’s is the gazette/CCRP; but i’m not sure which would be Blinky’s and Nibbly’s out of Waylon Hall and Hatchetfield High tho

it feels like it would be an interesting concept to play with plot-wise and it helps me imagine the Sniggles and the LiB and how the Sniggle society sort of functions.

i could probably go into more detail but i am tired and it is getting late lol

[homecoming]

photographs from tech week of deaf west's american idiot, by brenna povelite.

[poppitron360]

i love epic too! and i think ur super smart so can you share any cool things that you noticed/learned about it?

So I think my favourite song in Epic in terms of the composition is probably Scylla.

Btw this analysis barely scratches the surface of the composition/production of this song alone. I could talk for hours about this.

Also if I use any words you don’t understand, please please please ask me to elaborate and explain further (please). I tried my best to make it as easy to follow as possible but I grew up around this stuff so I tend to under-explain things and assume everyone knows what I’m talking about.

Most of the time when you’re recording vocals, you record the singer singing the melody two or three times (this is called double-tracking, and it makes the voice sound richer and better) and then you record the harmonies in the same fashion.

But with Scylla, they just recorded the singer singing the melody a bunch of times, and then pitch-shifted some of it to the harmonic note. When using any kind of DAW (Digital Audio Workspace (Sidenote but from what I can tell from the vids, Jay uses GarageBand, which I believe is free for most devices)), manipulating a note- changing the tempo, or in this case, changing the pitch- of a naturally-recorded instrument like a singing voice will make it sound really artificial.

(I love this because it’s clear that Jorge doesn’t have the best equipment and he’s using it to his advantage. Something recorded on a crappy four-track tape recorder in your bedroom can sound so much cooler than something recorded at Real World Studios or Abbey Road with the world’s best recording equipment- but only if you know what you’re doing.)

Also, in the context of Epic, the more synthetic, artificial, and electronic sounds are reserved for the mythical characters- the gods and monsters.

Taking a quick re-listen to Scylla’s song, I’ve noticed she’s harmonising on the 3rd and 5th of the note (now, I don’t have perfect pitch (which is when you can tell what note it is just by ear) so I could be wrong).

This is a very simplified explanation, but basically any key has a scale, and most chords are comprised of the root (the first 1st note in the scale) the 3rd note, and the 5th note. You can add or take away extra notes to make it ✨sparklier✨.

So she’s harmonising on the 3rd and the 5th, and her harmonies are mostly moving in parallel motion (in the same way) with the melody. This gives a clean, sweet, consonant feel. (Consonant= not dissonant. Dissonant= “smushy”)

Most of the melody is conjunct (moving in steps- no big leaps) and also descending, like you’re falling down in steps with her. Then, at the end of each line rising back up again.

Except for “Deep down” which is disjunct (big leap), moving downwards. You are plunging into the depths.

This has a chilling simplicity to it. And the fact that it’s repeated over and over and over again makes it almost sickening. I love it.

What I love about this is the duality of simple, beautiful elements, and dark, haunting elements.

So! You have the combination of:

The main vocal melody being sung by a natural voice- imo showing how Scylla was once a beautiful nymph

The harmonies being sung by a pitch-shifted voice, giving it a strange, creepy, artificial, “mythical” sound to it- as established by the other uses of electronic instruments in Epic to show myth

Consonant harmonising on the notes of the chord, which is something we are trained to hear in music and feels very “right” and “natural”

The parallel motion of the harmonies, which give a simple feeling- you’re not being sent out in loads of directions. You’re falling down with her.

The descending nature of the melody taking you “deep down”, then rising back up.

The continuous repetition of this simple melody line

The fact that it’s sung in a minor (sad) key

Ultimately these two factors create a stark contrast- a juxtaposition- which creates a super cool and bone-chilling effect. The only thing I can relate it to is something akin to a creepy children’s nursery rhyme from a horror movie. It’s unlike any other song in Epic just because of how twisted it feels. This beautiful, creepy song being played as you hear Ody’s men screaming as she slaughters them

(While we’re on the topic of the screams, in music production there is this thing called “panning” which (if you’re listening in stereo and not mono) controls how much to the left or right the sound is coming from. This is why I love to listen to Epic, specifically this song, on headphones, because you can hear the men being gruesomely killed all around you.)

Also “Drown in your sorrow and fears/choke on your blood and your tears/bleed ‘til you’ve run out of years” is just a mood and a half (there’s a whole other post I could write for the literary analytics of the lyrics- how she uses imperative verbs. It’s a command. It’s an instruction.)

And so when Odysseus joins in with Scylla singing “We are the same you and I…” it really hits home just how much of a monster he’s become- how unfeeling he was when he sacrificed his men. This is so subtle but in my opinion it’s what really turns him. Jorge is using all of these contrasting techniques to make Scylla seem horrific and creepy as fuck, and Ody is empathising with her. He is relating to her. I just… *shivers* wow.

[fourthwallbroken]

Newsies+Chicago Fan Theory:

Jack Kelly and Katherine eventually get married and start a family in New York. Jack maintains good relations with Miss Medda Larkin and takes his two daughters to the theatre frequently. His two daughters, Veronica and Velma Kelly eventually grow up to perform in the theatre themselves, becoming popular enough to start touring other cities across America, such as Chicago, Illinois. Considering this, it makes sense as to how familiar Velma is with newspaper publications and their sensationalism, as her dad used the press to his advantage and her mom was a reporter.

[zmorak]

Charles Rowland would idolise Troy Bolton, I'm sorry but I'm right

[marvelmaniac715]

If you haven’t seen the entirety of Wicked (and by that I mean both acts) please scroll away because I’ll be discussing a major spoiler for the second act and my thoughts on it. If you know about the twist in Act 2, scroll below the cut to hear me yap about my theory:

I’m convinced that, particularly in the movie, the Wizard is fully aware that he’s Elphaba’s father. My reasoning for this begins with the idea that Madame Morrible is already aware, because when she offers to tutor Elphaba in magic and Elphaba says that her father (the Governor) would not approve, Madame Morrible simply says “I’ll handle your father” then a few lines later, she brings up the Wizard and says “I’ll write straight at once to the Wizard, tell him of you in advance.”

I reckon that letter was along the lines of “remember that Governor’s wife you slept with years ago? She got pregnant and had a green baby - your green baby - and now she’s at Shiz and she’s got lots of magic”.

Because when the Wizard sees Elphaba, he instantly knows to go towards the green girl instead of Glinda (and he calls Glinda ‘Belinda’ so he clearly couldn’t give less of a fuck about her) and for a split second he looks at Elphaba like he really, truly knows her. That’s when he does the coin trick (very much a corny dad magic trick) and shows the two girls his little Oz model which already contains a green Elphaba figure. The Wizard sings about always longing to be a father, and treating each citizen of Oz as son or daughter, and this is standard manipulation, it’s highly possible that he doesn’t know he’s already a father.

But at the very least, he must have some understanding that Elphaba and the Governor of Munchkinland don’t have the best bond, which would justify the paternal angle of his manipulation, as well as his offer that Elphaba could have a home with him in the Emerald City, with the added bonus of Glinda (sorry, ‘Belinda’) staying with them.

Madame Morrible is clearly the Wizard’s confidant, since they planned the flying monkey scheme together - backed up by the focus on levitation in Elphaba’s lessons - and she would know that a child born from two different worlds would be powerful, and would also probably know that the Wizard is a fraud, so it makes perfect sense for Elphaba’s true paternity to be a part of the longterm plan to at the very least give the Wizard an heir for after he dies who actually has power so his legitimate right to rule wouldn’t be questioned after he was gone.

This is just a theory based on my interpretation of Wicked Part 1, and even if my theory is correct it doesn’t make me hate the Wizard any less, if anything it makes me hate him more for being a manipulative asshole, which is strange because I’m normally incapable of hating any character played by Jeff Goldblum because he seems like such a nice guy. Please do reblog with more suggestions because I really want to talk some more about Wicked.

[queenpiranhadon]

⚠️HAMILTON THEORY⚠️

So, so, SO

Y'all know and love the musical Hamilton, right? Well I do. And idk if this theory is *entirely* original, so my apologies if it isn't. BUT:

Angelica and Elizabeth Schuyler, both have iconic songs which highlight their feelings for our controversial bastard orphan Alexander. Eliza uses the phrase "Helpless" throughout the song frequently (it's also the name lol), and Angelica uses "Satisfied" (ALSO the name of the song).

BUT, stay with me, the two eldest Schuyler sisters aren't the only ones who uses these phrases.

In Say No to This, Maria Reynolds says "I'm helpless", almost like a nod to Eliza's song.

Whereas in Meet me Inside, John Laurens says "I'm satisfied" after his duel with Charles Lee. Now, while this may be a coincidence, as it's fitting that it rhymes with "shot him in the side" (referring to Lee's current condition), it's still something to consider.

My thought is this:

The characters in Hamilton that quote or say the word 'Helpless' in their respective songs, are those who openly showed affection and expressed their love to Alexander Hamilton. Those being Eliza Hamilton, his wife, and Maria Reynolds, the one whom he had a "torrid affair" with, as that became public later on.

But, the characters who had used the term 'Satisfied' were the ones who never broadcasted their love, only really admired him from afar or never spoke about their relationship. And who were those, you may ask? None other than John Laurens, Hamilton's close friend who many shippers are speculating an affair between the two, as well as Angelica Schuyler, who talked about her repressed feelings in her spotlight song.

Reblog if you love Hamilton ;)

[arthur-lesters-right-arm]

Imagine Arthur trying to teach John music theory so they can play piano together and John just absolutely losing it because music theory is hell and harder than rocket science

[very-gay-poet]

For my Epic the musical fans

I think I know what the choir is singing in the background of the chorus of No Longer You (underworld saga) Mr. Jalapeño has already revealed some:

Siren Song/ Scylla throat/ mutiny/ lightning bolt

and when the underworld saga had been not too long released and people were trying to figure out what it was saying he said only one of them was correct

my guess is the last line: Kill all the suiters for love (it just sounds right)

and when I listened to it the fifth line remined me of the "Danger Is Nearby" motif in Ruthlessness, aka "Poseidon"

So here is what I think the choir is saying: Siren Song/ Scylla throat/ mutiny/lighting bolt/ Run from Poseidon/ Kill all the suiters for love

"Run from Poseidon" is literally what they've been trying to do since the ocean saga (maybe even the cyclopes saga???) and why they're in the underworld, thus Ody goes "I am the monster rawr rawr rawr", thus thunder saga!

lemme know what you think!

[doseofnerdshit]

DEH- The Name Connor, who he was

The name ‘Connor’ means different things to each person in the story.

To Cynthia- it means her loving son who she watched grow up and slowly turn dark.

To Larry- it means the son he thought he gave everything to, and who still gave it all up.

To Zoe- it means the brother she has who she wished had loved her, but was really a ‘monster.’

To Heidi- as well as society, he’s just the kid who took his own life and deserves to be remembered.

And to Evan- the name Connor means the guy who he never got the chance to know. The friendship he could have had, but never did. Connor was the start of a whole new fake life for him, and they never even really knew each other.

Connor is Zoe, his crushes brother. Connor is the guy who signed his cast. Connor is the guy who took Evan’s letter. Connor is the guy who shoved Evan. Connor is the crazy kid who threw a printer. Connor is the rise and fall of everything for Evan.

And he never even knew him.

Nobody really knew Connor. In reality he didn’t have any close friends, (apart from Miguel from the book version, but I’m specifically talking about the musical version) he was drifting further and further away from his own family, and nobody really knows what happened in his head or personal life, or why he took his own life.

And the one person, the only person they think really knew him, actually helped him and is helping them remember him- didn’t know him at all. Evan’s trying to preserve memories that never even existed.

Nobody knows why Connor died. But Evan did. Of course he doesn’t know all the real, specific reasons for Connor. But out of anyone around, he’s the one who can probably relate the most. Because he was in the exact same place as Connor.

He tried to take his own life. In his letter- the one thought to be by Connor to Evan, was actually from Evan, about how alone he felt himself. People believed it as if Connor had written it, as if that’s something Connor would say. So if the letter Evan wrote, sounded just like sometbing the guy who killed himself would say- then, they must feel pretty similar.

‘Last summer, I just felt so- alone.’ ‘Did you fall? Or did you let go?’ ‘Will I ever make a sound…?’ ‘No one would even notice if I just- disappeared tomorrow.’

I am sure that is not far off from how Connor felt.

So even thought Evan never knew Connor directly or personally, he could relate to how he most likely felt…

Alone.

[crooked-wasteland]

Do you think songs being diegetic can work if it’s tied to the world building in someway? Maybe something like Centaurworld where the characters literally live in an overly saccharine colorful world where singing and dancing are common things to do?

Tl;Dr: It is not the existence of diegetic songs that make Hazbin a bad musical. It is the lack of non-diegetic musical numbers and how it is treated within the story that is the issue.

Based on this question and the reblog of my post, I didn’t convey my point adequately. I had said I was going to expand on this topic more in the essay, but I see that the lack of in depth context resulted in the wrong message being expressed, so please allow me to try again.

First let’s address the reblog:

To answer the question if Steven Universe does the same thing, the simple answer is no. To expand further, diegetic means that someone is literally singing. Non-diegetic is when a musical number is meant to be a figurative representation of emotions, inner thoughts, or events.

For the examples provided, when Jasper tells Sapphire to stop singing, Sapphire is literally singing and it actively plays a role in the story. Sapphire sings to let Ruby know she is okay and sets the groundwork to introduce her into the story in a manner that isn’t jarringly abrupt. That is an appropriate use of diegetic singing: it serves a story/character purpose. Whereas Stronger Than You, Garnet is not literally singing. It is meant as a representation of her feelings about her relationship and her rebellion against Homeworld’s customs on the matter. While we as the audience see her sing, Jasper does not. That is Non-diegetic.

From what I am seeing in both these questions, I failed to convey that competent use of musical theater utilizes both Diegetic and Non-Diegetic music.

In Hazbin and Helluva Boss, ALL songs are diegetic, as in all musical numbers are literally happening in the world. It is meant to be a joke when characters address the singing in the series, but instead it comes off as a mean-spirited, vapid criticism of musical theater as a genre. It also creates a disconnect when the world is designed to not have musical numbers as a norm, but then all the songs are diegetic regardless. In the effort to make all these songs diegetic they fail to delve further into the characters and their inner feelings in a meaningful way and shows a physical discomfort in doing so. Meanwhile, the story has to make excuses that don’t always make sense for these songs to happen.

I briefly touched on this when I mentioned the “Heightened sense of reality.” The example I can best come up with is A Goofy Movie. In A Goofy Movie, the world itself exists in this extremely heightened sense of reality. This is a film where Big Foot is real, cars can float, and Goofy literally survives an explosion unscathed. This is an absurd world that establishes that absurdity in a way where a song like On the Open Road can possibly be non-diegetic, but just as easily be diegetic.

Goofy starts the song by hearing sounds that are part of their world: the engine chugging, the pots and pans rattling, the keys jangling. The music is introduced diegetically, but then escalates to such a degree that it revels in the world that musical theater lends itself to. So when we ask if the song is diegetic or non-diegetic, it doesn’t matter. Because this sort of world building allows for a dead man to crawl out of his coffin to dance on the roof of a hearse in the middle of traffic. That just is the world we are in.

By Hazbin drawing attention to the song numbers being embarrassing, the show has established that we are not in a world where something like A Goofy Movie can take place. There is a sense of decorum that mirrors our own sensibilities in the world building that makes diegetic songs unnatural occurrences. That isn't to say that no character can diegetically sing in this sort of world, but that diegetic singing should be limited to those specific characters. Yet we have background characters singing along and it fails to set up an understanding of where the music is coming from.

Going back to Stronger Than You as a non-diegetic song, there is a different sense of heightened reality that comes from non-diegetic songs being interwoven into a scene. The level of suspension of disbelief that comes with not needing to question whether a song is or is not diegetic because the world has established music as a main component of its reality. Hazbin did the opposite in its effort to make fun of the idea of musicals in the first place and not incorporating music into the characters and their identities.

The issue I was trying to convey has nothing to do with the existence of diegetic songs, but how the world was never designed to support them, and the writers’ discomfort with breaking that boundary to elevate a scene to being partly metaphysical through the use of non-diegetic music.

.

.

.

.

.

And no, Moxxie's Bad Trip does not count as being non-diegetic. While it is taking place in Moxxie's mind, it is not representing anything happening in the story. Instead acting as a wholly different subplot about Blitz and Moxxie's relationship that has not been a part of the story until the Truth Serum was released. And by showing us that Moxxie and Blitz are actually not doing anything except tripping balls, that makes Moxxie's hallucination still diegetic to his reality.

[externalacousticmeatus]

OK GUYS so yknow in urinetown how cop song is basically just rain rain go away?a little while ago i noticed this, the “julie cassidy” part is almost identical.

a few months before that, when i was some research into urinetown’s uses of the dies irae (i was head dramaturg), i noticed that one of the places where that motif was used is in cop song. the 4 notes used in “julie cassidy” follows the exact pattern of the dies irae. for context, the dies irae is an ancient chant, and the first four notes are used EVERYWHERE to foreshadow death. So i looked at the sheet music for cop song, rain rain go away, and the dies irae, and they all follow this pattern. they aren’t IDENTICAL, but they’re very similar.

this seems like a fun silly thing, and don’t worry, it is. BUT THINK ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS!! the dies irae is used to symbolize death. in urinetown, it shows that death is urinetown, and in cop song specifically it’s used to show that the cops are literally just killing people. so…why is it used in this nursery rhyme? honestly? i have no idea. it’s probably a coincidence. this lead me down a rabbit hole of trying to figure out if this was the same song as “it’s raining it’s pouring the old man is snoring”, and i couldn’t really get a clear answer. i know when i was younger i sang them together, and they are pretty similar musically, but when i asked a lot of my friends and peers they always thought of those two songs as separate. it turns out there aren’t really set lyrics for nursery rhymes online, so when i couldn’t really get anywhere with that. if for some reason they ARE actually the same song, does this imply that the story is somehow related to death??? that the old man who bumps his head dies??? i know when I was a kid I always sang “didn’t wake up in the morning” as in he died in his sleep, but i asked my friends what they thought happened to the old man when they were younger, and they either didn’t thinking about it that much or that they sang “didn’t get up till the morning”. so i’m not sure.

tldr: cop song=rain rain go away=the dies irae. the internet is very vague when it comes to nursery rhymes. i’m losing my mind.

[alexanderthejustalright]

crazy theory

what if the lords in black created hatchet field to be their play house.

hear me out

what if every time a hatchet field musical comes out it’s just the showings of these gods using these humans as you things, killing them then resurrecting them for a new game.

Like sending a meteor to toy with the guy who hates them.

Showing one of them to the humans to see their desperate attempts of getting a child’s toy

Bringing a bully back from the dead to chase some nerdy teens.

it’s something they would do

Also this I’m my hyper fixation now tbh

[wa3v3y]

Two Auditions tmmr!

I will break all the legs

[johntorrington]

ANTONIN ARTAUD AND THE THEATRE OF CRUELTY MENTION ‼️‼️‼️