#madara meta

[al-hekima-madara-blog]

Madara & hindu cosmology

It's a thought I had following this post here

It's interesting that Madara never wished to resurrect his loved ones contrary to Obito. It seems that Izuna's death but more precisely the valley of the end’s defeat marked for him a definitive rupture with "this world". He was not interested anymore about his own desires. If you think about it, he was not supposed to be part of this collective dream that could have longed an eternity from the perception of those inside the dream. If everything had gone according to his plan, he would be just there alone watching people slowly dying in their cocoons.

Actually, I’ve realized recently that from my western perspective, I didn't pay attention to the Buddhist cultural aspect and in some instances the hindu cosmology. There is between both religions cultural bridges that we can't really see in the West shaped in judeo-christian background but from an asian/japanese audience it's implicit. In hinduism there is this idea that the material world is but a creative dream from the imagination of a god. He manifests himself in a sort of trinity:

Brahma the creator

Vishnu the protector

Shiva the destroyer (in order to recreate a new world) and note that Shiva is also associated as the Lord of dance. Shiva Nataraja destroys the cosmos, each steps is creating movement in the dissolution of the universe. It's a doomsdays to end a cycle and allow a new one to be born.

Shiva Nataraja, Lord of dance and destruction

Madara's plan is a way to attain this godhood state, to annihilate the world and recreate it again. We first met him during the apex of the 4th shinobi war, impersonating in a way Shiva, he destroyed the current shinobi world. From his perspective it's a failed world, or should I say a dream who turned into a nightmare, created by another god Hagoromo and perpetuated by his spiritual heirs Hashirama/Naruto. Obito in creating the Akatsuki and collecting the Bijuus, was incarnating one of Shiva's steps. He was preparing the dissolution of the world by perverting the shinobi system and hastening the apparition of the true "Shiva".

Madara’s Brahma phase can be paralleled with him being the second Sage Rikudou and having access to all the chakra on Earth and opening his third eye which represents in hinduism and buddhism the invisible one who brings mystical illumination and visions in the realm of high consciousness. If his plan would have succeeded he would have been a type of Vishnu protecting the new world. Alone, but keeping safe humanity inside his dream.

And as odditiesinnaruto said, time in a dream can be infinite. If Izumi was able to have a whole life with Itachi and "dying old", Madara must have been capable of putting someone in a dream where they exist and continue their life through their imaginary descendants for generations and generations, for centuries and millions of years which represents few seconds in real life. He would have literally created a Madaraverse inside the zombified Narutoverse (it sounds really like the movie Inception). And in his dream, somewhere the Uchiha clan and the whole world will "exist" in peace forever. It gives me vertigo!

[fire-eyed-raven]

Hashirama is often said to be stronger than Madara and it often treated as a fact by the fandom. Based on what Madara said during that confrontation on the river when they were still kids and the fact that Hashirama was the one who won fights between them.

But I think they were equal in strength and abilities because the one who wins not always the strongest one. There are a lot of factors that should be taken in the account like social/political aspects, mental state of the participants and willingness to kill.

When Madara first said to his father that Hashirama is stronger than him, he used it as an argument so they won't fight Senju. Because he didn't want to fight Hashirama. He also couldn't use his sharingan yet so back then he might have been really weaker than Hashirama.

But I don't think it was like that when they were adults. They fighting each other for years and neither won or was willing to kill the other. Yes, Madara lost the fight with Hashirama after Izuna's death. And he already had the eternal mangekyou sharingan at that point (though I don't think he had time to properly figure out how to utilize it to it's fullest). I think he was in a really bad state mentally at that point and it also affected him greatly.

But even that didn't really matter. Because he didn't had a choice of winning that fight. He was in a really bad situation and had to make the best of it. After Izuna's death the balance was broken. Madara was left alone against two Senju brothers. He basically had a choice of continuing the war with the Senju which would mean eventual death of the whole clan or accepting Hashirama's offer of peace which meant a surrender.

The Uchiha are prideful and stubborn people and I think if Madara tried to surrender without a fight he would have met with strong objections or even resistance from his own clansmen.

So the outcome of the fight and his condition of killing Tobirama ( I think Madara knew Hashirama won't do it) and then stopping Hashirama from killing himself was one of the few ways he could make it work. Like this he surrendered but also placated his clansmen and somewhat regained his equal footing with Hashirama.

On the other hand if he won that fight Tobirama wouldn't let him live after that and probably would have killed him using Madara's tiredness and that would have meant the end for Uchiha.

If we speak about their final fight at the Valley of the End... It gives me a feeling that only one of them was willing to really kill. And I think it wasn't Madara. And he was aware of this fact because he prepared the Izanagi beforehand. He actually went there prepared to die. ( I actually have a lot of thoughts about this fact as well but I'll write about it another time). I think Madara tried to use this fight as the last argument, the attempt to persuade Hashirama to see things from his point of view. Messed up as it was. But voices in the head never helped anyone with mental stability.

I truly believe that he was prepared to die but held a desperate hope that it wouldn't end like that. The shock on his face when Hashirama backstabbed him...

I hope all of this makes sense and not very difficult to read. English isn't my first language and I'm also quite rusty.

[evilkitten3]

one pet peeve of mine in founders-era fanfics is when madara's whole,,,, everything is solved by izuna just being there

like maybe this is just me, but i don't think izuna surviving or even coming around to the idea of a truce with the senju would've been enough to keep madara from the path he ended up on.

izuna wasn't the reason he left - he was definitely part of madara's issues, but he wasn't the why. even if izuna had stuck around, and even if that had been enough to keep the uchiha clan from losing their faith in madara, i think he would've still come to realize konoha wasn't what he'd hoped it would be.

best case scenario, i think izuna's survival might've caused madara to stick around a bit longer, but i don't think it would've lasted. honestly, even then, that might've just made the inevitable break-up between madara and hashirama even more agonizing (particularly for izuna)

it's a fun idea to play around with for sure, but frankly i don't think canon!madara could've ever been 'saved' from that path. certainly not if the hidden village system ended up getting set up in the same way.

[obitoslover]

Madara's question in chapter 625 (iirc):

Hashirama's answer in the next chapter:

I'm not fine.

@lalalover33-blog @kokonutcat @anubisthe1 @chrl15009

[purpleajisai]

Uchiha Observation n°1: Sasuke’s lineage - headcanons, storyline and hints in canon

This post is part of the worldbuilding process for a fanfic idea that I’ve been maturing over the past year, so I will update this if needed. I have wondered about the relationship between Madara and Sasuke for a long while now, and I knew there has to be a deeper connection than just reincarnations of Indra. The moment that piqued my interest was the point that Hashirama made about Sasuke looking like Izuna, implying that if Madara saw someone so similar to his beloved younger brother he could listen to what Sasuke had to say and perhaps change his mindset in regards to the war.

This cannot be a coincidence. Today, I’m going to share my headcanon regarding Madara and Sasuke’s kinship: Sasuke is Madara’s great nephew, connnected through Izuna. Here is the genealogical tree:

First of all, let’s explain Izuna’s generation. Of course, you can see Madara represented there as an older brother as well as the 4 unnamed younger siblings mentioned in the river flashbacks. The language used by Madara suggest that there were 5 other siblings aside from him, not 5 in total and including him. In the case of Izuna, according to the databooks he died at age 24, which is definitely old enough to be married and have a child.

And perhaps the readers are wondering why I’m not considering Madara to be married as well since he’s not only older than Izuna but also the clan leader. The only reason why I’m not giving him a wife and kids at the time of Izuna’s death is because I want to adhere to canon in this regard (no spoilers about the fic’s plot).

In the storyline I’ve planned, Izuna would die and leave behind a little baby or even a pregnant wife. The exact moment is yet undecided. However, it is through this only son of Izuna from which we can connect him to Sasuke. Once Izuna’s son grows up, having the pressure of being the last surviving heir to the clan, it’s not far-fetched for this man to have more than 2 children to ensure his legacy and prevent the clan from descending into anarchy. The reason why his firstborn son, who would be Izuna’s eldest grandson, is marked as “disgraced” in this chart is because the existence of this generation collides with the 2nd Great Ninja War. A possible reason I may consider to add for his fall into disgrace and shunning by the clan is that he would’ve left some Uchiha comrades to die in order to protect important Konoha intel, therefore gaining the reputation of a traitor and not being suitable for inheriting the clan’s leadership.

With the eldest son banned from the position of clan heir, the younger son would immediately take his place. From the disgraced eldest brother, we get Obito’s ancestry, and from the younger brother we get Mikoto’s generation. For Obito’s case, I theorize a normal Uchiha picked at random wouldn’t be able to handle the toll of Madara’s eyes, whether in EMS or Rinnegan form. Technically speaking, these eyeballs are actually Izuna’s, reinforcing his importance for this lineage. Please consider the importance of genetics in handling kekkei genkai in the Naruto universe. For Mikoto’s case, I added an older brother for her. Why? Because it used to be a custom in the Sengoku period and the subsequent Edo period to follow agnatic (male-only) succession for leadership. The death of Mikoto’s brother would put Fugaku as a leader, given that he’s the husband of a bearer of the lineage of clan leaders.

Finally, we get to Itachi and Sasuke. Neither one nor another were “normal” Uchiha: both unlocked the mangekyo sharingan and handled the toll of the Susano’o, among other remarkable feats. If Sasuke is connected to Madara through Izuna’s descendants, it would imply the existence of a direct line of ancestry that starts with Indra himself. The headcanons regarding the internal structure of the Uchiha clan will be discussed in a future post. The direct family line from Izuna to Sasuke can therefore explain why both looked so similar (recessive genetics) and why Madara felt nostalgic or touched at the sight of someone who resembled his beloved little brother so much.

Thanks for reading thus far, and if you have any questions plkease use the blog’s ask box.

[internal-ethics]

no one :

my brain :

the Shinobi WW4 was in year 1989.

konoha was founded in 1921.

tobirama was born in 1892, died in 1939 at 47 in SWW1.

hashirama born 1889, became Hokage in 1922, died as a old man in 1958.

madara born 1890 and Izuna 1894*

hiruzen's gen was born between 1915-1919.

the sannin born 1935

minato's gen born 1948

kakashi was born 1958.

and naruto's gen born 1972, making boruto a 90s kid. chapter 700 takes place in 2005.

[comikadraws]

Whats tobirama's beef with the Uchiha?

An Analysis of Tobirama's Prejudice

EDIT: If you have headed here via another user's post, here is a note. That user has never interacted with me. They clearly also haven't read any of my previous or linked posts, as far as I can tell. They simply just blocked me and then made that post to harass me afterward - completely out of the blue. My post has since been edited to better combat bad-faith takes and bullies like her.

Oh boi. More Tobirama. Once again, I am probably biased but these are my thoughts on him.

First of all, the guy definitely had beef with the Uchiha Clan, but I personally find the "racist" allegations he often gets to be... difficult, to say the least (not that I necessarily disagree with them). It is just that there are some very oversimplified, black-and-white takes out there with zero nuance.

Not that I am necessarily better but I'm definitely trying xD

Tobirama's Prejudice

Tobirama doesn't "hate" the Uchiha Clan but considers them to be a danger to Konoha. That is because

The Uchiha were more loyal/attached to the concept of "clan" rather than the concept of "village" (which stood in conflict with one of Konoha's main philosophies). Hence Tobirama sees them as "rebellious".

The Uchiha are more likely to lose themselves to intense hatred (aka "Curse of Hatred"). And, in the world of Naruto, hate is one of the main motivations of war, ever since the Warring States.

Combine that with the several bad experiences Tobirama and other Senju have had with the Uchiha (centuries of recurring battles, the death of Kawarama and Itama, Madara leaving the village) and you can see why Tobirama would think the Uchiha Clan is dangerous. Beyond that, Tobirama's character actually makes a lot of sense - more so than if he didn't have any prejudice. The prejudice he has is realistic.

He also personally does not believe that he "hates" the Uchiha and describes his bias as "caution".

The Racist Allegations

As I have already covered in this post about the Curse of Hatred, there might be parallels to our world's definition of racism, but Tobirama is not intended as a racist by Kishimoto.

What is important to understand is that perceived themes of racism in fantasy settings (where made-up races can have all sorts of magical differences between them, even those that are undesirable) do not equal actual racism in the real world (where racial differences are purely cosmetic) and often make for a bad analogy.

What I have also covered in the same post is that the Curse of Hatred very much does exist and Tobirama was right to assume that there is something "wrong" with the Uchiha. (For all of you not interested in reading, the TL;DR is that Zetsu's been manipulating the Uchiha for centuries, hence the illusion of a "curse")

Whether his theory was correct or not, however, is up to the audience's interpretation. The problem here is that Kishimoto never contradicted Tobirama's theories and also that they were presented and treated as exposition by the narrative. I am basing my own theory specifically on the exposition given by Hagoromo (chapters 670-671) and Zetsu (chapter 681) who are both relatively reliable sources and seem to imply (emphasis on "imply") that the Curse of Hatred mostly just affects Indra's reincarnates rather than the entire clan (again, reference to my other post because it has nothing to do with Indra specifically but rather just with Zetsu being manipulative).

Not that Tobirama could reasonably know about that detail, though. What he saw instead were centuries of war and Madara's defection, leading him to believe that there must be something influencing the Uchiha's decision-making. (And yes, assuming that my own interpretation about Zetsu is correct, that would make Tobirama a racist as his theories are not based on fact).

Systemic Oppression of the Uchiha?

Another misconception that people apparently have is that Tobirama ostracized the Uchiha Clan, which is untrue. Yes, the guy was horrible, was far too wrapped up in his own trauma, and should not have become Hokage. Not even because I think he was a bad leader necessarily but simply on principle.

That being said, the Uchiha were not being purposefully isolated from the rest of the village. The police force is neither entirely comprised of Uchihas nor are Uchihas forced to join the police. Instead, it is implied to be a choice in the manga.

Somebody else pointed out Orochimaru mentioning that the Uchiha had their clan compound near the prison. But this is not a criterion of ostracization. All the other canonical information we have on the Uchiha's supposed ostracization is based on Obito, who is famously a liar and not a reliable source (therefore it is up to headcanon).

Tobirama also practically gave away permanent leadership of the police. The police are part of the executive branch in any government, just like the military or, in this case, the ANBU - with the only difference being that the police don't require Hokage orders for everything they do. The Uchihas working at the police are in a position of power rather than in a position of suppression. It is also implied that they are able to arrest anybody they want (except ANBU members) without a warrant (again, emphasis on "imply" because the context implies that arrest without a warrant is possible for all non-ANBU citizens).

Keeping this in mind, the establishment of the Uchiha Military Police Force was (most likely) indeed a gesture of goodwill and trust. It was not a slight and it was not an attempt at ostrachization. If anything, it shows that Konoha (and by extension, the police) was corrupt and abusing power on a regular basis (though that is not the point of this post but yes, Konoha's politics are no unchangeable gospel).

There are more misconceptions about Tobirama that are often twisted to fit people's agenda, but I'll leave it at that for now.

My personal conclusion is that Tobirama might fit our real-world definition of "racist". But that heavily depends on your interpretation. Either way, Tobirama was a product of his times.

[pecuniam-amo]

So, who haven't we discussed yet? Oh yes, Madara.

Actually, I have a rather strange relationship with this character. Initially, when watching Naruto, I didn't pay too much attention to it. Come on, I was twelve, Sasuke and Shikamaru seemed to be the standards of beauty back then. But, years later, I realized my mistake.

Let's start with the fact that Uchiha Madara is one of the few characters who actually live their emotions. The viewer literally sees not a cliched villain, but a person who made some decisions, could change his mind, make a mistake, try again.

It is he who can be empathized with to the maximum. Didn't you have a feeling that you relied on a people, and they betrayed you? Was it that you were one hundred percent sure of something, and then you were humiliatingly wrong? Was it that you were disappointed in the life that is being built brick by brick on the basis of previously made decisions?

This is what we are able to see in the history of Madara. And it is impossible not to feel compassion haha

A special place in my heart is occupied by this: when he was resurrected, he admitted that Sasuke looked like his brother, but this did not prevent him from injuring, almost killing. But by the end of this villainous performance, he ventured to dream. Why not have a drink with Hashirama? Why not remember the past that he so zealously ignored?

I don't know, maybe this will sound stupid, but I think Madara is quite naive and trusting. Behind this veil of feigned aggression, strong peasant strength, there is a man who sincerely wished for peace. When he demanded that Hashiram either kill himself or Tobiram, he hardly really expected any retaliatory actions. He just wanted the last words to sound "cool."

In general, I recommend you guys not to conceal emotions and worries. Otherwise, you will become a passive-aggressive Madara.

[fangxin-guoshi]

Ok so this sort of goes hand in hand with the pro konoha anti Uchiha sentiment in Naruto, but I am sorta irked by Madara and Sasuke's character arcs ending how they did. They basically ended admitting that hashirama and Naruto were right and they were evil and bad, which personally I feel like completely disregards their own values and beliefs, as if to say their philosophy was inferior and inherently wrong. Yes, Madara and Sasuke were very destructive and definitely didn't go about fulfilling their goals in the most diplomatic or peaceful way, but to say they were acting out of pure hatred as opposed to Naruto/hashirama's actions from love completely misses the fact that they were grieving BECAUSE they felt so much love toward their families. The series is basically saying that the way they felt is wrong, and they should conform to konoha's "will of fire" and how they should just "let it go" after their families were murdered. And they did. That's literally how Sasuke and madara's character arcs went. Complete lack of acknowledgement or validation for them. Kishi ily but whyyyyy!!!

Anyways here's a madara

[commander-revan]

So I finished reading through the Naruto manga for the first time last night, and I had some thoughts about how similar parts of Obito's and Touya's stories are. They have very different pasts and different reasons for becoming 'villains' in the worlds they live in, but they do have several things in common.

When they're younger they're both bright, energetic, and determined kids that both have a goal of becoming an important person in their communities (hokage/hero). While Obito didn't really have family or parental figures in his life, given that he's Uchiha there's most likely a sense of legacy he's trying to live up to similar to Touya, and they're both working towards their goals so they finally feel seen by those around them. They both feel ignored by the people they consider important (Rin and Minato/Endeavor) in favor of those who are seen as more skilled than them (Kakashi/Shoto), so they train harder and harder in an effort to finally be noticed.

Both of them 'die' tragically young at the age of thirteen, though in very different ways. Obito dies with Kakashi whom he had finally bonded with, and Rin whom he loved though he still didn't have the courage to tell her his feelings. While Touya 'dies' alone, waiting for a father who won't show up for him until he's already gone.

However, they're both saved by a major villain that was thought to be long gone They're revived and healed using rather unethical science (White Zetsu/Nomu). And they both come out of the experience with weaker power than what they once had, and scars covering a large portion of their bodies.

While Touya never buys into AFO's plans and immediately breaks out and runs home, Obito has to stay and recover. Part of him even feels indebted to Madara, even though he is a bit creeped out by him and his philosophy. Eventually, though, he gets out too with the 'help' of one of the Zetsu's. However, when they both arrive to reunite with the people they're trying to get to, they see something that sets them on their dark paths.

They come to different solutions for what they want to do (Infinite Tsukuyomi/getting revenge on his family) but they both spend time walking the world and see how more than just their personal situations are fucked up. They see how much injustice there is in their societies, and how the people up top that are supposed to protect others frequently harm and use them. (The world of Naruto is quite a bit more fucked up than MHA, but the point still stands.)

After that, they both go by an alias (Tobi and Madara/Dabi) and start setting their plans in motion, eventually teaming up with the villain who saved them. Later on, they both fight their past loved ones (Minato and Kakashi/Endeavor and Shoto) who don't realize who they're fighting initially. Though once they do finally get it, Obito and Touya point out how they should have realized it sooner.

(This is a minor one that I didn't quite know where to put, but they do both show up to the final battle with white hair and outfits.)

They both end up fighting and losing to the one that they've always envied (Kakashi/Shoto), but they get back up and do something violently self-destructive that has the power to kill a lot of people that neither has complete control over at first.

During this, and the pain they're experiencing, they both start having flashes of a life that could have been. A life that should have been so simple to have.

That's about where we leave Touya, he's down, but he hasn't been completely saved yet. Meanwhile, thanks to Kakashi and Naruto's efforts, Obito begins to realize that there is hope still in the world, and that not all of it is hell. And he ends up fighting with them to take the bigger threat to the world down. Until he eventually sacrifices himself in the end to save Kakashi (and Naruto), just like he did during his first death.

If Obito, who did way more heinous things than Touya has ever done, can be saved and redeemed in the end, then I believe Touya can too. But, unlike Obito, I think he's going to get to live afterwards.

[al-hekima-madara-blog]

On Madara & despair (part 1)

Unfortunately we never had flashback on Madara's youth. So understanding him is always like playing the detective and putting dots together. But there is a brief moment where we have an idea of his mindset during the warring state era. It's the long Obito's monologue just after Neji's death. It's the only moment where Madara recognizes himself. And what I see is that solitude is what really hurt him the most and definitely makes him lose his faith on any of his principles. In comparison the old Madara here is beyond pain, age has distant him from that. Often he's quite bored about grandiose optimistic speech from other characters, people he knew are gone, nothing to believe in except stopping this reality, this world doesn't matter anymore to him. So read Obito carefully and replace it with Madara, it gives a new light to what his life could have been.

I want to put this also in parallel with Onoki's memory. His sensei was giving him a personal lesson, but that speech is intentionally a parallel with Madara's life. And we know that at this precise moment he had lost hope in Konoha, and was losing the trust of his own clan. In other word, even if he was one of the most powerful shinobi of his time, he's absolutely isolated and unable to defend his principle or Izuna's will.

And of course there is the nail on the coffin when he read the tablets. He found himself in a desperate situation and the infinite plan comes like a miraculous answer to his pain. Then, he puts all his energy into achieving it.

Madara and despair part 2 here

[fire-eyed-raven]

My thoughts on Madara's mangekyou

From what we know from the canon Madara and Izuna were first from Uchiha who achieved mangekyou sharingan. But we have been never told how.

From what we know Madara had two closest people Izuna and Hashirama. His other brothers are already dead at the beginning of the story. And his relationship with his father wasn't accentuated as very significant. And we know that development of mangekyou sharingan is a result of the death of someone very important. And entail an enormous emotional response because of that. So there should have been another important person for Madara besides Izuna and Hashirama.

So hear me out, considering Madara and Izuna both suddenly gained a mangekyou I think that the "important person" who died was the same one for both of them. And brothers probably killed that person because of betrayal. ( Or it was a mercy kill but I think it was more likely a betrayal). When Izuna were dying he asked Madara to not trust Senju and Hashirama because he would be eventually betrayed. I think it would make sense if they had similar experience before and he is afraid that it will happen again. It would also explain why Madara doesn't let anyone close even from his own clan. And why it's never mentioned how he gained the mangekyou sharingan despite this being definitely very important for Madara's character development. Because there's no way it isn't....

[obitoslover]

Thinking about that obihoe's post, I love how Obito was sadistic as hell

Like, not even Madara would do half of what he did. No one can convince me Madara would take a newborn, put paper bombs and throw it mid air just for funsies and revenge. he didn't even tried to kill Tobirama, but Obito? "Kirigakure made my only friend crush die, so I'm gonna control their new Mizukage and make this village hell on Earth"

Hell, Madara was disappointed Obito created a fucking war for two Bijuus (one of them would've already been in his possession had he, y'know, didn't use the Kyuubi to destroy Konoha), like damn his plan was to avoid pain and suffering... and you decided creating a war as the right decision?, although he tried to understand Obito when he said "I suppose you had your reasons"

Stop being stoic/understanding, Madara! Obito would never XD

anyway that's I love Obito, he was so unhinged istg

@lalalover33-blog

[leportraitducadavre]

Fear and Racism - an analysis of Tobirama’s advocates

During all my years on Tumblr, I’ve found constantly the same argument regarding Tobirama’s views on the Uchiha, and while most (if not all) of his fans tend to justify his behavior over the vastly discussed COH theory that considered them biologically and emotionally unstable and thus, needing the government’s control, many others avid readers tend to defend or understand (at least partially) his views and decisions upon the premise of fear. More specifically, his fear of the Uchiha’s power, a sentiment born and developed during his youth as a member of his clan that lost beloved ones at Uchiha’s hands and was forced to face them in battle.

I will not dwell on the fact that many other (if not all) noble clans composing Konoha also incurred in such duels, and it’s likely that the Senju and other families also fought during the Warring State Era. The Uchiha was the Senju’s primary opposite force, yet not the only one, still, that “fear of insurrection” was solely focused upon a single family instead of a vast group of different people. In that sense, this fact alone disintegrates the argument that Tobirama was “prejudiced” rather than racist, as prejudice refers to a preconceived idea (positive or negative) about a particular person or group not based on prior experience nor knowledge, while racism involves an unequal distribution of power on the basis of ethnicity. The fact that Uchiha was the only clan forced to perform a single job (that limited their political influence and also prevented their complete integration in Konoha), were spied on by ANBU members, and were moved to the outskirts of the city (not by the Nidaime but following the same segregationist policies established by him), are actions performed by two different governments under the guidance of what became a systematized racist political structure.

The policies he made were around his personal racial prejudices as he’s the one and only who created the bureaucratic system of the village (something many of his stans gloat about) that, in itself, makes him racist. Those that state that he was just "prejudiced" conveniently leave aside the segregationist structure he built around his mindset. As someone in a position of power who, as was canonically shown and stated (by Hashirama, Orochimaru, and himself), didn't even bother to check his own prejudices, he's to be held accountable over the simple fact that he was the Hokage in charge of guaranteeing the safety, equity, and equality of those under his command.

Yet, while fear given his prior experiences is a fair claim as the basis for Tobirama’s bias, it’s also factual for the rest, as Madara (and other Uchiha) also lost relatives at Senju’s hands –in fact, Tobirama is likely more powerful than most Sharingan wielders as he killed Izuna, the second in command. Yet unlike Tobirama, neither Madara nor anyone of his kin performed undisclosed autopsies of deceased Senju members in order to study their biology nor wrote discriminatory and limiting policies based upon their nature. Madara even deflected after learning about his clan’s future inside Konoha’s borders.

[I’ll also brush over the fact that Tobirama’s words about how Madara is viewed negatively by other clan heads, while Hashirama isn’t, it’s never canonically shown –which only let us with his word,  which we immediately took as factual.]

What I will comment on more deeply tho, is the notion of fear and its influence on racist mentalities and behaviors, as many believe that Tobirama’s fear of the Uchiha has nothing to do with his discriminatory mindset, as if “fear for what an ethnicity might do and therefore acting by repressing them in advance” it’s somehow different than racism, that implies a “racial [ethnic, as the term racism is far outdated as there’s only one race that exists with multiple ethnicities] prejudice that guides the individual to perform discriminatory and repressive acts.”

Extreme hatred is almost always based on fear. People may feel threatened by people they view as "different" or "foreign." They may fear losing power. To combat this fear, some people may seek social support from others with similar fears, perpetuating the cycle.

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Attitudes of extreme hatred are usually based on fear. They come from primitive survival mechanisms—our instinct to avoid danger—to fear anything that appears to be different, which leads to fear of the other.

“When one race of persons unconsciously feels fear in response to a different race group—fears that their own level of security, importance, or control is being threatened—they will develop these defensive thoughts and behaviors,” says psychologist and political advisor Dr. Reneé Carr. “They will create exaggerated and negative beliefs about the other race to justify their actions in [an] attempt to secure their own safety and survival.”

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Irrational fear, particularly of people of color, has shaped the American criminal justice system since the nation's colonial beginnings (...) Many of the propagators of this apartheid trafficked in racist fear-mongering to justify discriminatory treatment of African Americans, warning white America about the inherent criminality and violent propensities of black men.

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Fear and Racism are deeply intertwined, such as is Hate and Racism (there’s a reason why xenophobia, which is the fear of strangers or foreigners, it’s often used as a synonym for racism) –Tobirama claimed that the Uchiha were a “clan possessed by evil” (x), despite his studies only confirming that emotions were the primary force behind their chakra activating the Sharingan. At no point did he prove that negative emotions were the sole requirement for their kekkei genkai to activate nor was he able to prove that their feelings commanded their actions as he performed autopsies over (hopefully) dead bodies that clearly had no way to feel a single thing and act upon it; in fact, he wrote the book of shinobi’s rules that forbid people (even non-Uchiha) from showing emotions -yet Hiruzen, the student he trusted the most with his will, as he bestowed upon him the Hokage title, happily exploited such connections amongst his forces. 

Tobirama’s need for control pushed him to create Edo-Tensei (a jutsu that came back to bite him in the ass, but regardless), he controlled powerful deceased shinobi at the expense of other people’s lives –you can say that Tobirama’s primarily driven force was fear yet it easily evolved into a clear necessity of absolute control over both living and dead people as to perform what he thought was righteous. In that sense, his characterization is marvelous, as he’s not above cruelty to perform what he claims is “the greater good”, in fact limiting his vicious tendencies is reducing both his depth as a character inside the story and the complexity and duality of the system he created under such perspective –neither he nor Hashirama were above ruthless acts to carry out their wishes.

To state that he wasn’t racist but rather, a person that acted upon his fear by creating and carrying out segregation policies based upon biology (re-read that phrase again and tell me how that isn’t racism, please) it’s limiting the existence of racism to mere “hatred” sentiments that rest upon the notion of one ethnicity’s superiority (morally, physically or both), which, pardon me, is absolutely nonsensical and paradoxical, as Tobirama was well aware of the Sharingan’s supremacy (in that case, the explanation of his racism would be solely based upon the anger awaken by sentiments of jealousy, yet canonically he never displayed such propensity as even having access to Uchiha corpses he never implanted himself a Sharingan).

[Many POC (particularly males) have to, to this day, fight against racist pre-conceptions that paint them as violent, savage, and blood-lusted individuals, created to install fear amongst the “pure” white citizens in order to push them to seek “government protection against the savages” which, in turn, happily and easily installed discriminatory policies against such communities.]

If you wish, you can say Tobirama’s fear was “rational” as he does have a background of conflict with the Uchiha, yet then you can’t blame the Uchiha for distrusting Tobirama and his successors’ policies as they also possess the same history –yet while Tobirama is, somehow, justified in his apprehension for the Uchiha, that courtesy isn’t extended to that family, who should have trusted blindly Konoha’s system, a bureaucracy which basis are built upon Tobirama’s ethnic prejudice.

And it's even by their own laid-out premises that these advocates fail to specify what exactly ARE Tobirama’s segregationist policies: They were targeted to a single clan and a single clan alone, what is that if not ethnic prejudice? They keep saying is not racism yet fail to convey what it is as if “fear” is enough response when speaking of an individual that built Konoha's entire political structure.

Furthermore, many claim that Tobirama couldn’t be racist as he allowed one Uchiha (Kagami) inside his cell, and both Itachi and Shisui were advocates for Konoha’s government yet:

This denial of the significance of race is a tool that allows the dominant racial group to legitimize the effects of racism under the guise of individual merit. Through this lens, people in positions of power can credit their successes to their own hard work while positioning the disadvantages oppressed racial groups face to personal rather than systemic failures.

The praising and/or awarding of one or few individuals inside a group that suffers from systematic prejudice is not proof of such a community not suffering from such segregation policies, rather, it’s a way to disguise such oppression while selling the idea that individual merit it’s both what matters, and the thing that’s stopping most members of such a family from rising inside Konoha’s political’s sphere. That way the blame is placed upon individual actions rather than the systematic flaws of Konoha’s policies (and the same happens with other characters, such as Naruto, Neji, Kakashi, and so on –as their traumatic experiences and subsequent reactions are blamed upon their individual perspective and not on the bureaucratic structure that is both the cause of the specific events that shaped them and the reason why they don’t have a better support system after such occurrences).

At the same time, Madara was the main motive of Tobirama’s “terror” for the Uchiha yet, after Madara’s death, he continued with his discriminatory policies towards those who shared the same ethnicity as the former leader, despite them willingly turning their back on him when he tried to make them abandon Konoha, pledging their loyalty to their village rather than to their strongest member and leader. Tobirama’s prejudice toward this specific ethnic group (as ethnicities in this manga are marked by the different Kekkei Genkai that exists), a consequence of his fear of a “new Madara rising” (whether it’s based on fear or hate doesn’t deny the fact that these notions were constructed with a racial prejudice still, making the system in itself and Tobirama specifically racist), converged in the systematic oppression that, later on, will push the Uchiha to attempt a coup and their subsequent massacre, a point that I touched upon a little more here. 

In short, denying Tobirama acted upon his fear for the Uchiha is reading his character flatly, I agree, however, maintaining that fear is not one of the main bases for the development of racist mentalities and policies is to simplify both the notion itself and to diminish the gravity of the segregationist practices that result from this perspective. 

[evilkitten3]

But listen, if Izuna had said yes to Hashirama's help after he was injured and he still died, would Madara rampage like in canon? Would he still chase the infinite tsukyomi?

the thing is, hashirama never offered to help izuna. i'm actually not sure he could have - the hiraishingiri pretty much cut through him like butter. moreover, while madara himself lauds hashirama's medical prowess, we actually know very little about his capabilities with medical ninjutsu. he could heal wounds without any hand seals, that's mostly all we know.

here are hashirama's words immediately after izuna is injured:

「マダラ・・・お前はオレには勝てない・・・もう・・・終わりにしよう・・・忍最強のうちはと千手が組めば・・・国も我々と見合う他の忍一族を見つけられなくなる・・・いずれ争いも沈静化していく」

"madara... you can't beat me... let's end it already. if the strongest shinobi, the uchiha and the senju, form an alliance... the country won't be able to find another shinobi clan able to counterbalance us... the conflict will eventually calm down"

he doesn't acknowledge izuna at all. whether he intended an offer of medical aid to be implied or not, it's never addressed. a bunch of people have claimed that this makes hashirama a jerk, and while i definitely get that viewpoint, i do think offering to help izuna without being absolutely certain he was capable of doing so would've been a terrible move, politically speaking. madara might have known that hashirama isn't the sort of man who would do something like this, but the rest of the uchiha clan would have no reason not to assume that hashirama didn't just take advantage of madara's kindness/trust/desperation/whatever to ensure that izuna died while potentially leaving room for madara to feel indebted to him for trying in spite of all the reasons he had not to bother.

hell, the clan might even come to the conclusion that madara intended for izuna to die so he could get his eyes, given what ended up happening in canon, so his fallout with them might actually happen even faster (and without the uchiha ever joining konoha at all, although without madara around to counter hashirama, i have no idea if/how the uchiha would manage against the senju from there)

all that aside, if hashirama had indeed offered help and izuna had agreed to take the risk and died anyway and the uchiha clan trusted that that was what had actually happened, i think pretty much everything else would've proceeded according to canon.

there's definitely plenty of fun possibilities to play around with concerning madara's path in life, but tbh i personally believe that without a massive deviation from canon, he would've eventually become who he became. hashirama definitely fucked up here and there, but i honestly don't think there was anything he could've personally done alone that would've changed madara's fate short of killing him back when they were kids, which he was never going to do. he was always doomed.

[stardustcoma]

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