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greenerteacups · 3 months ago

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oooh please someday tell us what you think of GOT

oh, no, it's my fatal weakness! it's [checks notes] literally just the bare modicum of temptation! okay you got me.

SO. in order to tell what's wrong with game of thrones you kind of have to have read the books, because the books are the reason the show goes off the rails. i actually blame the showrunners relatively little in proportion to GRRM for how bad the show was (which I'm not gonna rehash here because if you're interested in GOT in any capacity you've already seen that horse flogged to death). people debate when GOT "got bad" in terms of writing, but regardless of when you think it dropped off, everyone agrees the quality declined sharply in season 8, and to a certain extent, season 7. these are the seasons that are more or less entirely spun from whole cloth, because season 7 marks the beginning of what will, if we ever see it, be the Winds of Winter storyline. it's the first part that isn't based on a book by George R.R. Martin. it's said that he gave the showrunners plot outlines, but we don't know how detailed they were, or how much the writers diverged from the blueprint — and honestly, considering the cumulative changes made to the story by that point, some stark divergence would have been required. (there's a reason for this. i'll get there in a sec.)

so far, i'm not saying anything all that original. a lot of people recognized how bad the show got as soon as they ran out of Book to adapt. (I think it's kind of weird that they agreed to make a show about an unfinished series in the first place — did GRRM figure that this was his one shot at a really good HBO adaptation, and forego misgivings about his ability to write two full books in however many years it took to adapt? did he think they would wait for him? did he not care that the series would eventually spoil his magnum opus, which he's spent the last three decades of his life writing? perplexing.) but the more interesting question is why the show got bad once it ran out of Book, because in my mind, that's not a given. a lot of great shows depart from the books they were based on. fanfiction does exactly that, all the time! if you have good writers who understand the characters they're working with, departure means a different story, not a worse one. now, the natural reply would be to say that the writers of GOT just aren't good, or at least aren't good at the things that make for great television, and that's why they needed the books as a structure, but I don't think that's true or fair, either. books and television are very different things. the pacing of a book is totally different from the pacing of a television show, and even an episodic book like ASOIAF is going to need a lot of work before it's remotely watchable as a series. bad writers cannot make great series of television, regardless of how good their source material is. sure, they didn't invent the characters of tyrion lannister and daenerys targaryen, but they sure as hell understood story structure well enough to write a damn compelling season of TV about them!

so but then: what gives? i actually do think it's a problem with the books! the show starts out as very faithful to the early books (namely, A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings) to the point that most plotlines are copied beat-for-beat. the story is constructed a little differently, and it's definitely condensed, but the meat is still there. and not surprisingly, the early books in ASOIAF are very tightly written. for how long they are, you wouldn't expect it, but on every page of those books, the plot is racing. you can practically watch george trying to beat the fucking clock. and he does! useful context here is that he originally thought GOT was going to be a trilogy, and so the scope of most threads in the first book or two would have been much smaller. it also helps that the first three books are in some respects self-contained stories. the first book is a mystery, the second and third are espionage and war dramas — and they're kept tight in order to serve those respective plots.

the trouble begins with A Feast for Crows, and arguably A Storm of Swords, because GRRM starts multiplying plotlines and treating the series as a story, rather than each individual book. he also massively underestimated the number of pages it would take him to get through certain plot beats — an assumption whose foundation is unclear, because from a reader's standpoint, there is a fucke tonne of shit in Feast and Dance that's spurious. I'm not talking about Brienne's Riverlands storyline (which I adore thematically but speaking honestly should have been its own novella, not a part of Feast proper). I'm talking about whole chapters where Tyrion is sitting on his ass in the river, just talking to people. (will I eat crow about this if these pay off in hugely satisfying ways in Winds or Dream? oh, totally. my brothers, i will gorge myself on sweet sweet corvid. i will wear a dunce cap in the square, and gleefully, if these turn out to not have been wastes of time. the fact that i am writing this means i am willing to stake a non-negligible amount of pride on the prediction that that will not happen). I'm talking about scenes where the characters stare at each other and talk idly about things that have already happened while the author describes things we already have seen in excruciating detail. i'm talking about threads that, while forgivable in a different novel, are unforgivable in this one, because you are neglecting your main characters and their story. and don't tell me you think that a day-by-day account tyrion's river cruise is necessary to telling his story, because in the count of monte cristo, the main guy disappears for nine years and comes hurtling back into the story as a vengeful aristocrat! and while time jumps like that don't work for everything, they certainly do work if what you're talking about isn't a major story thread!

now put aside whether or not all these meandering, unconcluded threads are enjoyable to read (as, in fairness, they often are!). think about them as if you're a tv showrunner. these bad boys are your worst nightmare. because while you know the author put them in for a reason, you haven't read the conclusion to the arc, so you don't know what that reason is. and even if the author tells you in broad strokes how things are going to end for any particular character (and this is a big "if," because GRRM's whole style is that he lets plots "develop as he goes," so I'm not actually convinced that he does have endings written out for most major characters), that still doesn't help you get them from point A (meandering storyline) to point B (actual conclusion). oh, and by the way, you have under a year to write this full season of television, while GRRM has been thinking about how to end the books for at least 10. all of this means you have to basically call an audible on whether or not certain arcs are going to pay off, and, if they are, whether they make for good television, and hence are worth writing. and you have to do that for every. single. unfinished. story. in the books.

here's an example: in the books, Quentin Martell goes on a quest to marry Daenerys and gain a dragon. many chapters are spent detailing this quest. spoiler alert: he fails, and he gets charbroiled by dragons. GRRM includes this plot to set up the actions of House Martell in Winds, but the problem is that we don't know what House Martell does in Winds, because (see above) the book DNE. So, although we can reliably bet that the showrunners understand (1) Daenerys is coming to Westeros with her 3 fantasy nukes, and (2) at some point they're gonna have to deal with the invasion of frozombies from Canada, that DOESN'T mean they necessarily know exactly what's going to happen to Dorne, or House Martell. i mean, fuck! we don't even know if Martin knows what's going to happen to Dorne or House Martell, because he's said he's the kind of writer who doesn't set shit out beforehand! so for every "Cersei defaults on millions of dragons in loans from the notorious Bank of Nobody Fucks With Us, assumes this will have no repercussions for her reign or Westerosi politics in general" plotline — which might as well have a big glaring THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT stamp on top of the chapter heading — you have Arianne Martell trying to do a coup/parent trap switcheroo with Myrcella, or Euron the Goffick Antichrist, or Faegon Targaryen and JonCon preparing a Blackfyre restoration, or anything else that might pan out — but might not! And while that uncertainty about what's important to the "overall story" might be a realistic way of depicting human beings in a world ruled by chance and not Destiny, it makes for much better reading than viewing, because Game of Thrones as a fantasy television series was based on the first three books, which are much more traditional "there is a plot and main characters and you can generally tell who they are" kind of book. I see Feast and Dance as a kind of soft reboot for the series in this respect, because they recenter the story around a much larger cast and cast a much broader net in terms of which characters "deserve" narrative attention.

but if you're making a season of television, you can't do that, because you've already set up the basic premise and pacing of your story, and you can't suddenly pivot into a long-form tone poem about the horrors of war. so you have to cut something. but what are you gonna cut? bear in mind that you can't just Forget About Dorne, or the Iron Islands, or the Vale, or the North, or pretty much any region of the story, because it's all interconnected, but to fit in everything from the books would require pacing of the sort that no reasonable audience would ever tolerate. and bear in mind that the later books sprout a lot more of these baby-plots that could go somewhere, but also might end up being secondary or tertiary to the "main story," which, at the end of the day, is about dragons and ice zombies and the rot at the heart of the feudal power system glorified in classical fantasy. that's the story that you as the showrunner absolutely must give them an end to, and that's the story that should be your priority 1.

so you do a hack and slash job, and you mortar over whatever you cut out with storylines that you cook up yourself, but you can't go too far afield, because you still need all the characters more or less in place for the final showdown. so you pinch here and push credulity there, and you do your best to put the characters in more or less the same place they would have been if you kept the original, but on a shorter timeframe. and is it as good as the first seasons? of course not! because the material that you have is not suited to TV like the first seasons are. and not only that, but you are now working with source material that is actively fighting your attempt to constrain a linear and well-paced narrative on it. the text that you're working with changed structure when you weren't looking, and now you have to find some way to shanghai this new sprawling behemoth of a Thing into a television show. oh, and by the way, don't think that the (living) author of the source material will be any help with this, because even though he's got years of experience working in television writing, he doesn't actually know how all of these threads will tie together, which is possibly the reason that the next book has taken over 8 years (now 13 and counting) to write. oh and also, your showrunners are sick of this (in fairness, very difficult) job and they want to go write for star wars instead, so they've refused the extra time the studio offered them for pre-production and pushed through a bunch of first-draft scripts, creating a crunch culture of the type that spawns entirely avoidable mistakes, like, say, some poor set designer leaving a starbucks cup in frame.

anyway, that's what I think went wrong with game of thrones.

#using the tags as a footnote system here but in order:#1. quentin MAY not be dead according to some theories but in the text he is a charred corpse #2. arianne is great and i love her but to be honest. my girl is kinda dumb. just 2 b real.#3. faegon is totally a blackfyre i think it's so obvious it may well be text at this point #it's almost r+l = j level man like it's kind of just reading comprehension at this point #4. relatedly there are some characters i think GRRM has endings picked out for and some i think he specifically does NOT #i think stannis melisandre jon and daenerys all will end up the same. jon and dany war crimes => murder/banishment arc is just classic GRRM #but i think jon's reasoning will be different and it'll be better-written.#im sorry but babygirl shireen IS getting flambeed. in response stannis will commit epic battle suicide killing all boltons i hope #brienne will live but in some tragic 'stay awhile horatio' capacity. likely she will try to die defending her liege and fail #faegon will die there's zero chance blackfyres win ever #now jaime/cersei I do NOT think he knows. my brothers in christ i don't think this motherfucker knows who the valonqar is!!#same with tyrion i think that the author in GRRM wants to do a nasty corruption arc + kill him off but the person in him loves him too much #sansa i have no goddamn idea what's going to happen. we just don't know enough about the northern conspiracy to tell #w/ arya i think he has... ideas. i don't think she's going to sail off to Explore i am almost certain that the show doing that was a cover #because the actual idea he gave them was unsavory or nonviable for some reason. bc like.#why would arya leave bran and jon and sansa? the family she's just spent her whole life fighting to come back to and avenge?#this is suspicious this does not feel like arya this does not feel right #bran will not be king or if he is it'll be in a VERY different way not the dumbfuck 'let's vote' bullshit #i personally think bran is going to go full corruption arc and become possessed by the 3 eyed raven. but that could be a pipe dream #the thing is he's way too OP in the show so the books have to nerf him and i think GRRM is still trying to work out #a way to actually do that.#i don't think he told them what happened with littlefinger or sansa. i think sansa's story is vaguely similar #(stark restoration through the female line etc)#but the queen in the north shit is way too contrived frankly. and selfishly i hope she gets something different #being a monarch in ASOIAF is not a happy ending. we know this from the moment we meet robert baratheon in AGOT #and we learn exactly what GRRM thinks of the people who 'win' these endless wars of succession #and they are not heroes #they are not celebrated #and they are neither safe nor happy

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whumpbby · 27 days ago

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TBH I do think some Jiang disciples did survive the Lotus Pier massacre, if only because they had been elsewhere when it happened/too old or too young to fight so they ran (<-which could be a fun thing to grapple with for both the potential run-aways and newly recruiting Jiang Cheng, who was sent away), but it still wasn't enough people to be called Great Sect. So I think as you say they recruited anyone they could, including some rouge cultivators and some from smaller sects that were destroyed or taken over by the Wen Sect. I don't think they tried to recruit - while the Sunshot campaign was going - a lot of people without active golden core, because they would simply have little time to train them between the battles. Some probably did manage to join the Sect like that, and these would probably grow quite close to people who taught them between the fights.

Also Jiang Cheng having to be at least one of these teachers, because they are short on the disciples but shorter in those trained in Jiang style even more so. And how after the war he must've been doing that still, on top of having the sect to run as both Leader and Head Discipline (because Wei Wuxian was going through things he chose to neither explain or acknowledge) (1/2)

(2/2) Also Jiang Cheng, who almost had to watch his brother get caught by the Wen soldiers when he went off alone in the streets, WOULD try and make his disciples work in big enough groups to protect themselves. Also also Jiang Cheng that seems to go off alone rather often.

Oh, and Jiang Cheng throwing his weight around when his disciples get into some sort of disagreement/scuffle every time, and being harsh on the other party (totally not because of finally being able to shield someone he cares for) and never satisfying the questions about the punishment (totally not because of his mother and Zidian and Wei Wuxian). Even when Jiang disciples were in the wrong. Not meaning there was no disciplinary action, just that it never went outside the sect.

Also taking in some non-cultivators that are good at other things (like Jiang Yanli!) or people who lost their golden cores but can still fight and teach (because he remembers not having a golden core and how that felt like; and maybe he realises somewhere along the way that he might've been able to live without one too; which would certainly add even more flavour to learning whose golden core really was inside him all along).

The latter headcanon is also so amazing because resurrected Wei Wuxian would have to confront how he dealt with the loss of his core and finally stop saying he is fine and reflect on his feelings about all this, including Jiang Cheng

____________________________________________________

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me :D I am so absolutely taken over by this subject!

This is why I'm writing these things, I love to discuss them with other peeps:)

Your message pushed me onto another path of wild speculation via the mention of the other smaller sects that JC would approach to recruit - and that pushed me into the economics of Jinaghu and their influence on the post-war lay of the landXD

Which I am putting under the cut, because it's a lot of rambling to get to a point, but that's how it is in these parts;]

Also, the map I will be using, because it's as good as any other:

From the beginning - smaller sects yes, there was probably not a shortage of them that were destroyed by the Wen passing through and by the blowback of the war happening at all. I imagine that anyone from lone survivors to whole families was displaced…

But I am unsure if inviting them in would be a good idea in JC's position, because, going back to the main point - the Jiang were decimated. I can only go by what the story tells us when it doesn't mention any extra survivors - the Wen banning other sects from night-hunts was a nifty set-up for everyone being stuck at home after all - even if, logically, some of the disciples could be in other locations… however, even if they were, these wouldn't be the meat of Yunmeng Jiang. Because…

…random tangent no 1, because this is a low-fantasy setting (thinking of Game of Thrones I am), I am structuring the Sects as Just Gentry. Maybe not kingdoms outright - because there doesn't seem to be enough land between them to cover for their economic statuses - but city-states ruled by aristocratic bloodlines with the actual political power in their hands. Thus, even if the book doesn't really go into it, I'd wager that the region of Yunmeng was run by the extended Jiang family that was living in the capital of Lotus Pier. That's where the disciples were trained - but that was most likely also where the taxes were being collected, where the trade arrangements happened, where the law was being written, higher education took place, it had the best restaurants, etc.

When the Wen destroyed Lotus Pier, they did away with the whole socio-economic and political setup of the region, which is a smart move for someone who wants to set up their own shop.

…And that circles me back to JC and recruiting - he wasn't just gathering disciples to fight, he was rebuilding a whole intricate system of governance from scratch. A system that used to be run by the extended family that he could trust - now was something he was staffing with strangers.

And, from the example of Su Minshan, we know how jumping sects was considered to be in bad taste - it stands to reason that whatever decimated sect showed up on JC's doorstep, they wouldn't want to give up their own name. Just like JC wasn't going to give up his name. These people would be looking for an alliance and revenge, and, most likely, economic help in their own rebuilding, but most of them weren't looking to join the Jiang. And if they were - what was the guarantee that they'd stay? Or that they wouldn't use JC to meet their own ends and leave him worse for it? Or simply take over due to sheer numbers? A valid fear for a clan of 1 that had to seem ripe for picking.

I think JC would be very careful about accepting disciples from existing sects as his own, and instead build alliances with them. A rogue cultivator or a promising youth looking for a place to settle were a safer bet to build the core of his new sect with. Not to say that some of these alliances wouldn't result in the smaller sects merging into the Jiang later on by osmosis, but not at the outset…

Which leads me to believe that JC would want to start taking in and training coreless youths as soon as humanly possible - just to have someone at his back who was OF Yunmeng Jiang and not just allied with them. Maybe not during the beginning of the war, but by the time Lotus Pier was reclaimed things were probably going this way. If you think about it, Jiang Cheng was a fucking powerhouse of a leader. I have no idea when he slept. Probably not at all.

Probably why he was so cranky XD

That's why I am of firm opinion that the alliance by marriage with the Jin sect was a double-edged sword JC wasn't in a position to refuse, but also wasn't in a position to wholeheartedly accept. (And everyone who thinks that JC 'sold' Yanli to JGS for all these doubloons is just plain old wrong). Because now they're family. Only family he has. And that family can slowly find their way into the important positions of his own 'kingdom', because that's how gentry/aristocracy tends to work in a setting putting that much value on bloodlines, and he doesn't have his own family to plug these positions with ahead of time.

And even if JGS wasn't super eager to marry his son to JYL and the marriage was mostly pushed by Madame Jin and Jin Zixuan - it was in JGS's best interests for Yunmeng Jiang to remain weakened and/or under his control. Because….

…tangent nr 2- economics! :D

The plot doesn't go into it, but I like to know, so I was thinking of the actual economics of the magical land of magical peopleXD I don't need them to be detailed, but just realistic enough to make some sense, and serve as a believable background. I'm not going to question the existence of potatoes or other anachronisms, but one thing I needed to answer for myself was - where is all the money coming from???

Like, for real, where is the cash coming from for all the silks, fancy furniture, houses, swords and so on. How are the gentry sects making money?

Again, the genre, like many others, waves away monetary concerns in general - aristocrats are just wealthy, commoners are poor, and Bilbo Baggins is a landlord. OK.

So, taxes. What makes sect a Great one? Land, mostly, it would seem. The amount of land they own. Which means taxes - if we consider the Gentry sects local aristocracy. That tracks, because ain't no way they'd earn that much dosh via night-hunts from a population that isn't really that large. If you look at the approximate map of the whole realm and consider how fast people are moving from one region to another (even including flying swords and donkey-travel) that ain't a lot of land/people to feed all these sects fleeting about between the 5 Majors.

So, my idea is that the small sects do support themselves mostly via night-hunting and general spiritual upkeep of their locals, but the Greats are just aristocracy and live off of taxes and trade.

And that makes me wonder how Yunmeng Jiang managed to recover their wealth in such a record time, and why was the Jin so wealthy for apparently doing so little.

I propose that Lanling Jin grew out of a port-city and made its money on sea-trade. Sea trade was always The Shit if you wanted to, dunno, gild your palace in gold or something.

Yunmeng - with its access to lakes and rivers - was another trade hub of the realm with the additional bonus of lotus, fish and all other crops a well-watered land can give you.

Qishan - being the most West-ward placed of the Great sects we know of, had to have access to - or even monopoly over - the intercontinental trade routes, or a lot of raw materials available. But at the same time, being a mountainous region, it wasn't rich in water and water-intensive crops. I think that once the material appetite of the Wen upper echelon grew, the more they needed to look towards consuming other regions to sustain it.

Annexing Yunmeng was a good strategy from that point of view - it fixed the water issue and also opened new trade routes towards the South and East via the rivers.

But then the Wen were defeated - and all that West-ward trade potential suddenly was left unattended, and JGS would be a fool to let it slip through his fingers. And the only 'large' clan placed close enough to was Yunmeng.

Stands to reason that, somehow, JC managed to wrestle some of that for his own people to refill the coffers. Gusu was too far and not a trade hub by any means, and Nie Mingjue/Huaisang seemed uninterested in reaching out for it, so the only serious competition on that front were the Jin… Which, again, JC somehow managed to outsmart there, because I do not believe for even a moment that a fierce economic battle wasn't fought as soon as the military operations ended.

#headcanon #mdzs #jiang cheng #yunmeng jiang #i am at no point saying this is gospel - just how i explain things to myself in my head #i am no economy major - just a dedicated Age of Empires player XD #addressing the possible characteristics of yunmeng jiang disciples will come next #I imagine JC and JGY having a battle of spead-sheets during every conference #and their trade disputes being so damn tangled and complex that even sect leader yao usually sat them out #i think that JC was always running the type of anxiety that made it impossible to stand up for himself - but the moment someone he liked #was concerned the Mom Friend override was slamming in and HE SAID NO PICKLES FOR FUCK'S SAKE!#like - JC was taught that standing up for himself usually leads to more scolding and so he instinctively doesn't until he's too angry #to hold back #thanks mom&dad :DDDDD #that nothing he can say in his own defense matters #so why the fuck should he try?#but he will go to bat for the people he loves at all times of day & night #and his closest disciples noticed #and decided that yeah that won't do - let's make it so that the zongzhu doesn't have to take it for us #no witnesses means no accountability>;]#and #no #one #saw #anything #right?:))))))))

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