#kylo ren redemption meta

[curlytheintrovert]

🔹Another Ben Solo Rant🔹

I think what hurts the most about Ben Solo is the missed potential.

Firstly, I really wanted to see he and Rey fight Palapatine. That one motion, turning to face him in unison with their matching sabers raised, was so powerful. I was so excited when I saw this the first time…its SUCH a shame that they didn’t follow through with it. I needed to hear: “We are all the Jedi.” And to see them fight as a non conflicted dyad in the future?! The thought makes me shiver.

But more than that I wanted Ben to have actually been able to revel in love and his relationship with Rey—to understand how healing someone else’s love and acceptance can be. It was obvious from that precious smile before he died (?) that he hadn’t received much of that. And giving him two seconds of happiness was cruel…Let our boi have some good things, damn it!

Like I wanted to see Ben make friends for the first time and have fun—to see him laugh. I would have loved to see that Han Solo sense of humor and sarcasm that I know he would have had. I would liked to see Ben be a skilled fighter for the Resistance, and show off those Anakin-Han pilot skills we briefly got to see. To see he and Rey’s relationship outside of war and turmoil, in quiet moments and peaceful conversations. It most likely would be complicated and difficult. They would had to fight for their future, I’m sure of it, but that’s what would have made it so special.

I also really really wanted to see Ben actually redeem himself. Honestly, killing him gave him the easy way out, just like Vader. Sure he redeemed himself to Rey, but to try and atone for everything he did and everyone he hurt as Kylo? It would have been so incredibly fascinating and complicated and raw and messy…I would have LOVED it. To see Rey defend him to the Resistance and let him be in their midst would have been so tense. The awkwardness of facing Finn and Poe—after hurting them both—and Ben having to win their trust would have been great. I want the awkward and I want the not so straight forward conclusions. That’s what Kylo represented: The morally gray.

To see a villain redeem himself, atone and accept that forgiveness might not be achievable for some in the galaxy would have been so powerful and unique. And with how so many of us connected with Ben/Kylo it would have been therapeutic all around. But I don’t think a movie would be mature and nuanced enough to pull it off. A show on the other hand, all about Ben’s redemption arc would make me the happiest nerd girl possible! I want something like this instead of the Force ghost scenes we’ll probably get in the new movies.😭

And now that my rant is over, I’ll get back to mourning Ben Solo on a weekly basis, thank you and good bye T_T

[sepublic]

            They should’ve made the Knights of Ren catholic in the Sequel Trilogy. You have the obvious associations and imagery, what with the burning cross and the name, the idea of crusaders, a First Order and everything. We could’ve made them a dark parallel to the Jedi in a way that is different from the Sith, but also still similar.

         Because one of the big critiques of Catholicism is the constant emphasis on repentance, self-flagellation, always apologizing and atoning for who you are; Suffering is Good basically. Which is directly at odds with how the Jedi’s whole mission is to end suffering, given their Buddhist inspirations and all.

         But what distinguishes the Knights of Ren from the Sith is that they’re collectivistic, not individualistic. Whereas the Sith see themselves as the absolute best, masters of their destiny, the Knights of Ren claim to constantly be working in servitude and devotion to some higher, ‘divine’ cause. The Sith know they’re selfish and simply don’t care, whereas the Knights of Ren operate on this false sense of holy righteousness.

         In a way, you could see them being akin to what people accuse the Jedi order of being; A dogmatic organization of emotionally repressed cultists who are made to be inherently ashamed of themselves, and impose their own worldview on the world. It’s meta because we see the Jedi defeat the extremist caricature which others in real life and in-universe accuse them of being; Imagine Rey posting a selfie after defeating the Knights of Ren, captioned “Just beat the Corrupt Jedi Allegations (Literally)!!!”

         They’re like a twisted middleground between the Jedi and Sith… Except they’re still evil by the end of the day. They’re monks, but in a Christian sense, while the Jedi are Buddhist; And with the resurgence of Right-Wing Conservatism that espouses the Bible, that would make the Knights of Ren politically topical, as the villains of each trilogy are meant to be. They’re crusaders and missionaries, seeking to convert the entire galaxy, or else wipe out what doesn’t cooperate. They want everyone, force-sensitive or not, to worship and fear the Force.

         In the wake of Palpatine’s death, they see themselves as reinstating a lost spirituality that Order 66 had nearly wiped out; But they also see the Jedi as hedonistic heretics, and again, they plan to dominate the galaxy. They’re much more transparent about their goals, unlike the Sith of the mainline films, and they intend to convert the new wave of force-sensitives that have been born following Anakin’s redemption, and the final death of the Sith (They do not like the Rule of Two; The more Force, the better).

         They’ve allied with Snoke because both parties need the other; Snoke because he’s lacking in experienced force-sensitives, the Knights of Ren because Snoke has arcane knowledge and an actual army, as well as a program for indoctrinating children. Kylo is like their middle man, a chosen one, basically the Knights’ second coming of Christ or something; But he’s both beholden to them and Snoke, so it’s a bit hard reconciling these loyalties.

         Kylo is like Snoke’s inside man, and whom he can actually communicate with the hostile Knights of Ren through; He sees them as unruly and belligerent, only listening to their chosen leader, and apprehensive to talk to Snoke. While the Knights of Ren are dirty and scarred, Kylo’s uniform and equipment is clean and well-kept; He is an outlier, both as an ascended leader, but also as someone with outside ties.

         Despite being their elected leader, Kylo still has some ways to go; But the Knights of Ren are prepared to worship, support, and prepare him for that position of leadership. Him and Han are a reverse Abraham and Isaac; Not only does the son make the sacrifice of his father, he actually succeeds in going through with it. Each Knight of Ren goes through arduous trials to be knighted and given the prestigious title of Ren; And at the end, they must make a personal sacrifice, to prove their loyalty to their divine cause, and their willingness to prioritize it over all else. They really ARE a cult, insisting on no outside ties, Us VS Them, unlike the Jedi.

         They probably have a REALLY long history, older than even the Sith; Perhaps even older than the Jedi! A long history of persecution, with the earliest followers of the faith being hunted down by anti-Force regimes, and this continuing perhaps as recent as Order 66; So again, more parallels to the Jedi, and helps explain their scrappy, wartorn poverty. Since the Sequel Trilogy teased the idea of the Unknown Regions and the origin of the Jedi being explored, let’s go with that; Perhaps the Knights of Ren are among the very first Force-sensitive sects that emerged.

         Maybe we could even do a twist; The first Jedi was actually a Knight of Ren who realized their ideology sucked and redeemed themselves, as a narrative predecessor to Anakin. This would give the Knights of Ren a particular grudge against the Jedi, who they see as having made things Go Wrong, just when the Ren had begun to make things Go Right. And the Sith have their origins as former Jedi turned dark, so they see the Sith as merely offshoots of the original traitors; This original Jedi is their Judas, a former follower who turned corrupt, and basically sided with those persecuting them (the Romans/anti-Force majority).

        That might be why they generally don’t wield lightsabers; They might associate them with Jedi, especially if it was the first Jedi who introduced the usage of Kyber. Kylo is an exception, since he’s the Chosen One and all that, plus he’s already an outlier and outsider in other ways; Snoke insisted on the lightsaber because he pulls from Jedi and Sith teachings, much to the chagrin of the Knights of Ren. But Snoke believes a well-rounded education is necessary for Kylo’s full potential, and that’s another reason he tolerates the Knights of Ren, since THEY’RE the experts on the Ren. There might be some significance to Kylo’s lightsaber being an outlier even amongst lightsabers, too.

[fortunatelychaoticphantom]

Highlighted Posts - Fandom Topics

For some explanation, see serious topics post.

Avatar the Last Airbender / Legend of Korra:

Aang, forgiveness and violence in The Southern Raiders (meta).

Aang’s (lack of a) character arc (meta) + same response, posted independently from the original chain post with a bit of revisions (meta).

Avatar, violence and last second anti-killing rhetoric (meta).

The actual advice the past Avatars gave Aang (meta).

Aang vs. Ozai final battle and Star Wars influences (meta).

The Great Divide is good actually (meta).

Aang being rewarded by the universe? (meta).

Third season Scorched Earth plan out of left field (meta).

Bloodbending and Energybending (meta).

Katara didn't have a “plot armor” in the final battle with Azula, she's the epitome of a warrior (meta).

Katara and non-lethal battle winning (meta/joke).

Katara didn’t beat Pakku (meta).

Katara didn’t choose Aang “over” Zuko (meta).

Anastasia!Zutara AU (headcanon).

Mai and Zuko, what should have been (meta).

Mai happily joined Azula to hunt Zuko (meta).

Kanna and Pakku... why??? (meta/joke).

Gender equality in the Fire Nation and WW2 equivalents (meta).

Legend of Korra, the status quo and the institution of the Avatar (meta).

Making Korra’s dad chief is just… awful (meta).

Harry Potter:

The Malfoys didn’t have a redemption in canon (meta).

Michael Gambon is great, you guys are just mean (meta).

Snape, Dumbledore and the Defence against the Dark Arts (meta/joke).

No thanks, I don’t need a young Snape movie (joke).

What Harry’s reaction to his name being pulled from the Goblet should have been (joke).

The Tri-Wizard tournament has no rules (meta).

Star Wars:

Star wars and Pirates of the Caribbean are the same story (meta).

Kylo Ren and redemption in the Star Wars universe and Hollywood [tlj post] (meta).

DC:

so... does Superman have an appendix? (joke).

Why Selina Kyle never goes to Arkham (joke).

The Scorpion King/Wonder Woman comparison (joke).

Marvel:

Infinity War and the horror of the snap (meta).

Who’s the avengers’ designer? (joke).

Black Panther and The Lion King similarities regarding women (meta).

Shipping in the MCU (joke).

Antman and family (joke).

Pirates of the Caribbeans:

Elizabeth and Will’s relationship is the heart of the movies (meta).

The best things about PotC (meta).

Disney:

I sort of wrote a one-shot about the bimbettes from Beauty and the Beast (fanfiction).

Belle in the Hunchback of Notre Dame (meta).

Del Toro, monstrosity and Beauty and the Beast (meta).

Inner Workings is amazing (meta).

Frozen’s Anna and Hans (joke).

Quasimodo is awesome (meta).

Around the world with Captain Phoebus (joke).

Pocahontas’ ending is subversive as fuck (joke/meta).

Hercules didn’t know who Hades was (joke).

Other:

Bullshit “feminist” retelling and Mad Max Fury Road (joke/meta).

“Feminist” retellings explanation (analysis).

She-Ra and the inherently good protagonist (meta).

I hate the ending of She-Ra (meta).

Once upon a Time, Regina and redemption (two diverging threads of the same post) (meta): First and Second.

Ross Geller isn’t that bad, you guys are just mean. Or: The unbelievable cruelty of what Carol did to Ross (meta).

Bella Swan and Hermione Granger comparisons are bullshit (meta).

Twilight and depression (meta).

New Moon reread comments (meta).

Eclipse reread comments (meta).

Breaking Dawn reread comments (meta).

The Good Place is the greatest show in history. But also I have thoughts (meta).

The single most beautiful Geralt and Jeskier art ever made [The Witcher] (fanart).

Dimitri wanted to find the real Anastasia all along in hopes that she survived the revolution [Anastasia 1997] (meta).

Godzilla, Pacific Rim and Hollywood: between grim-dark and camp (meta).

Wednesday Addams and the usurpation of the summer camp for rich white kids (meta).

Debbie Jellinsky is the best [The Addams Family Values] (joke).

Achilles and Patroclus sitting in an urn. K.I.S.S.I.N.G. (joke).

Of course the Jewish women are the witches in Oz the Great and Powerful… (joke/meta).

Bird Box and mental illness (meta).

My problems with Carmen San Diego (meta).

Ice Princess and teenage movie tropes. Or: They're lesbians Harold (meta/joke).

Lord of the Rings life goals (joke).

The School of Good and Evil and that little bit of antisemitism… (joke).

Game of Thrones / House of the Dragon genetics are weird (joke).

Why wouldn’t I keep talking about old fandoms? (joke/analysis).

I hate Barbie. Sorry. (meta).

[sokkastyles]

Hi! I've been enjoying your ATLA metas, and saw that you mentioned Catra's redemption in one of them. I realize this isn't a She-Ra blog, so feel free to decline answering or send me to a different blog (your main blog didn't have a mention of Catra according to search at least so I figured this one was closer?).

I was wondering what you thought of Catra's redemption? I love love love She-Ra, but I do have one main problem with it and that was that any trauma Adora would have received from Catra was pretty much ignored at the end. Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy the wish fulfillment ending, but in a show that was very focused on realistic portrayals of trauma in a life lessony sorta way, I don't think it sends the right message.

The main arguments I see against this view are:

- They are on opposite sides of the war, which doesn't cause the same sort of trauma that personal abuse does. I disagree, since Catra regularly uses what she personally knows about Adora against her, which is pointed out as a fear of Adora's. Also, because Catra's motivations for going after Adora are motivated largely by personal reasons, rather than because she believes she's on the right side of the war.

- A lot of time passed between when Catra saved Glimmer and when Adora was previously abused by Catra, so Adora has had time to heal. I mean, maybe, but that's pretty weak.

I can't actually say anything about this because I haven't watched SPOP. I only used Catra as an example of a character whose redemption arc got pushback. I also mentioned Kylo Ren as an example, and I confess I haven't watched the last Star Wars movie because I found the second one of the new trilogy so poorly written, but from what I've heard there was similar pushback there because of sloppy writing. I actually was a Kylo Ren redemption supporter in the first film even though I shipped Rey and Finn, but from what I've heard about how that ended it was also a disappointment.

From what you're saying, I would agree with you. People fighting on opposite sides of a war isn't abuse, but it's the personal relationship the characters have that matters. I can't speak to the SPOP example but I immediately thought of Zuko and Azula. Them fighting each other from opposite sides of the war isn't abuse, it's the dynamic they have as brother and sister in a family where Azula was encouraged to participate in Zuko's abuse that makes her actions abusive, and she is abusive to him even when they are on the same side of the war. That's why "but they got along in book three" is bunk. Azula was sitting pretty while Zuko was terrified and miserable and she constantly belittled and manipulated him to keep him that way.

[but-a-humble-goon]

I know it's way too easy to think up rewrites to Rise of Skywalker but here's my two cents on how to execute on Kylo Ren's character arc satisfyingly: don't have him redeemed by the end of the movie. He gets defeated, his plans and ambitions all fail and he's left with nothing to show for everything he's sacrificed. Ben realises too late he threw away everything he had that mattered. He's locked up with nothing but time and a lot of regret. After this, he can turn up in subsequent Star Wars media (whatever form that winds up taking) on the goodguys' side but here's the kicker: he's still not truly redeemed. Ben's motivation now is to find the perfect heroic death to cheat his way to forgiveness and sidestep ever actually having to atone and grow as a person. In short, he's still trying to emulate Darth Vader. Then since the sequels are pretty committed to their shtick of being a meta commentary on the original trilogy, the other characters (though preferably Finn, who has the most legitimate reasons to not forgive Kylo) can spend a while calling him out for this hypocrisy and bullying him into choosing to live to earn his redemption the long and hard way.

[love-too-believe]

Meta Masterpost✨️💖

Finally put together all my metas through the years!!!

(ALL CONTAIN SPOILERS)

My Hero Academia 

Subtle Dehumanization: Titles Instead of Names 

(This also includes the Harry Potter fandom and Star Wars fandom)

Deku and Rei: Having No Agency

Why Hawks Is Against Stains Ideology

Hawks and Redemption 

Hawk’s Motivation

The Fandom Misinturprenting Hawks The same Way TLOV Misinterpreted Bakugou 

Dabi Being a Daddy’s Boy

Dabi Being a Daddy’s Boy Pt2

My Feelings on Natsuo

My Headcanons on Shinyo Takami 

(Shinyo Takami is an oc character of Hawks dad made by) @sleepwalkersqueen

Star Wars

How I Got into Star Wars: Reylo

Kylo Ren’s Abuse by Snoke

Harry Potter

Why We Be Congratulating Men for Doing the Bare Minimum?

Severus Snape Canon vs Fanon

James Would Have Been Blacklisted If Severus Were Female

“But James Changed!”

A Song of Ice and Fire

Game of Thrones could have been great

Gendrya in GOT Was Screwed from the Beginning

Stranger Things

The Silenced Victims

Billy v Jonathan: What Comparing Victims Really Means

Lack of Self Defense Skills and Real Weapons

What Was the Point of Billy Being an Abuse Victim?

Black Panther

Why Namor x Shuri Makes Sense In Terms of Story Structure

In General 

Redemption and Forgiveness

Bad Victim Mentality 

(Includes examples in the HP fandom, Star Wars fandom and Bnha fandom)

Ali from Euphoria: Society and Redemption)

[ashesforfoxes]

in the scavengers hoard podcast, you said (i think it was you) that you thought Kylo would have to suffer to make the audience believe his redemption,, do you have any ideas as to how this could be done? I ask just because, I want him to survive 9, but I also want an ending that satisfies all those who think it should be death by redemption. Or is death what you meant by suffering?

Good question. One I’m saving mostly for later. 

I was probably referencing @ohtze on the subject of suffering: her Redemption arc meta lays down the groundwork for how a (satisfying) redemption should unfold and she is spot on about it. There’s also the Heroes’ Journey (Ben seems to be getting one of his own):

I hate to be coy but I am holding my thoughts on the necessities of redemption until I’ve unleashed the next two Divine Union meta. I’ll at least say I think most of us (including myself) have very Western notions of how punishment and suffering should be entailed, or experienced. But I don’t think simple black and white justice or an atonement through death or exile will make sense in this trilogy, or even this saga. What we will see, and what we’ve seen so-far, is the theme of resurrection. Ben has been dead and traumatized for a long time, but Rey went to the Underworld for him, and Luke forced him back into the light. He’s made some horrible decisions, but I can’t forget he was also cursed. Curses are meant to bring the soul into humility and love for others. They only fail when the cursed can’t see past their own petty, selfish concerns and die by their own hubris. I can’t really see that happening to Ben at this point, because what really is the motivator when you have no one left to fight for but yourself and you’re missing the only people you loved?

I don’t believe good or evil is the point of this saga. I think it’s something we’ve projected on to the story because we’ve been living in a world that seems evil and we have to try and dissect everything, even our fantasy stories, to explain why we live in the world we do. But Star Wars is not really for us, it’s for kids. And George Lucas has always understood and tried to give us a story where the imbalance in the galaxy is the kind that comes from not treating others as human beings, the kind that treats them as expendable and then sends them out to die. One that denies them loved ones, lives, children, peace. That’s the world we live in. I’d like to see the antidote. It might not be feasible in a franchise predicated on conflict but it might at least make a good ending for IX.

I think we have to ask ourselves really how important the message is, not just to kids but to us adults, of what Star Wars is actually about. Do we get a story where someone who made bad decisions can resolve them in the name of love and find strength in that love in overcoming trauma? Maybe that person would also know about how to deal with the darkness, and be a mentor and a guide for those headed into it? And isn’t this the story for every single character in this franchise? I don’t know about you, but that’s the kind of story I want to believe in.

[myflairway]

From “The Art of the Last Jedi” - by Brockbank

Kylo’s Bed Chamber Version 15 - The three flashbacks were a late addition - one of the last things that went into the script before we started shooting. It’s similar to Rashomon, but the actual story motivation was that I wanted some harder kick to Rey’s turn: ‘You didn’t tell me this.’ I wanted some harder line that was crossed - a more defined thing that we could actually see - between Luke and Kylo. I didn’t want to do a big flashback. So one flashback that you repeat three times but that’s just one moment seemed more right. Ultimately, the only one who lies is Luke, in the very first flashback, where he omits the fact that he had a lightsaber in his hand. Kylo is basically telling the truth about his perception of that moment. - Johnson.

And this^^^ is one of the reasons why Rian Johnson is such a good storyteller and filmmaker. He added three layers to a situation that would have become a cheap gimmick at the hands of a lesser filmmaker.

The director himself wanted to include not one or two, but three pieces of one scene that add up to be a huge Kylo Ren redemption arc meta.

It’s like he is holding a huge “SAVE BEN SOLO” sign right in front of us, twice.

[crypticpatterns]

These tags were left on a post of mine about Goro Akechi and his role in Persona 5, and they sparked something in me and I felt I should speak on them, because they're so right, and so many people don't seem to get this in our society that's so focused on punitive justice rather than restorative justice. Spoilers for Persona 5, The Rise of Skywalker, She-Ra, and Encanto going forward, but this post is ultimately about a lot more than those four pieces of media.

People said similar things about Ben Solo when he was redeemed, which is extra ridiculous in the Star Wars fandom when literal Darth Vader got a redemption. There were a lot of fans who compared Ben to Rey, saying that she had a terrible childhood and never became evil, so his bad experiences don't excuse his actions. They're right, but they're also missing the point.

You'll see people saying similar things in sections of the She-Ra fandom about Catra and Adora, who were both abused by the same person throughout their childhoods. One of them escaped that abusive dynamic and found a support group while the other did not and had a downward spiral into villainy. People say the same exact thing about Catra, that because she did evil she's not redeemable.

Or heck, look at Abuela in Encanto. People were UP IN ARMS against her (and she's not even a murderer, lol), invalidating her trauma because it doesn't excuse her actions. Of course trauma doesn't excuse her actions, but she was traumatized, and she never got to process that trauma until her reconcilation with Mirabel, and she eventually made the choice to be better and heal the rift in her family. Does that mean her family is obligated to forgive her? No, but they are also allowed to forgive her if they so choose. There's going to be a lot of baggage for a long time, and Abuela is going to need to work hard to make amends, but it is possible, and it is good for her to get the chance to make things right. The reconcilation between the family is a good thing, and it's both okay and possible for us to forgive Abuela without dismissing the harm she's done to her family.

Here's the thing. Different people react in different ways to their trauma. Some people react very poorly to their trauma and lash out against others, continuing the cycle of abuse. In fact, that's an incredibly common way to react to trauma when it's left untreated.

Some people explicitly become worse versions of themselves because of their trauma. And many times they hurt other people in their pain. When people are hurt and don't get the support they need they will not improve. People need help from others to get better, and Ben Solo, Goro Akechi, Catra, and even Abuela never got that support they needed. And many of them pushed the help they did eventually get away because they no longer knew how to accept help.

And yet those people are still allowed redemption. They are allowed to get better. In fact, that's what we should want for these people, because in the end they are hurting too, and they will keep hurting others until their own hurt is addressed. Humans don't stop being human when they do bad things.

A character can't be redeemed of something unless they've done something wrong. There is no such thing as a person who "deserves" redemption. Whether a character or a person "deserves" anything is besides the point. Redemption and atonement are antithetical to the idea of punitive justice and giving people what they "deserve." No villain "deserves" to get better, neither do they necessarily "deserve" love and support from others, but it's what they need--what we all need.

And of course, this is fiction. Characters and circumstances are exaggerated for dramatic effect and to make a point. But these principles do extend to the real world too.

I passionately and strongly do not believe in a punitive justice system. In fact, punitive justice is not only unjust in my opinion, but evil. It only spreads more harm in an attempt to find "fairness" in revenge. Harshly punishing wrongdoing does nothing to right the initial wrongs and only continues the cycle of violence, further traumatizing people who might have otherwise improved if given the support system they needed. We as a society need to move on from these concepts of eye for an eye. It’s not justice, it’s just elevated revenge.

None of this necessitates that characters or real people forgive or reconcile with the people who hurt them. In fact, I think stories where either reconciliation or forgiveness do not happen are very powerful. It's important for people to learn that even if they have changed, they are not obligated to be forgiven. They can find redemption without befriending their victims. I don't think Haru will ever forgive Goro for killing her father. That doesn't mean I believe Goro can't be redeemed and can't try to atone. His motivation for getting better shouldn't be forgiveness, but to make things right, and become a better person who doesn't hurt people.

Not everyone is a perfect victim. Most victims aren't perfect victims. That doesn't erase their victimhood, and neither does their victimhood excuse their actions. But people are people. And it is good to extend to all people the belief that they can be better, whether or not they decide to make that choice for themselves. Otherwise, we can have no hope for ourselves.

[communistkenobi-archive]

the ST sucks and tRoS does severely weaken the point I’m about to make (and has been made by countless people already), but those movies were at least a step up from the OT in its depiction of fascism. like Star Wars isn’t a revolutionary text by any stretch of the imagination, and it shouldn’t be treated as an “important” teaching tool for the public re: politics (or any subject, really), but a big “issue” with the OT was that they made the Empire cool. Vader was cool, their ships were cool, the Death Star was cool - they were clearly the bad guys, but their aesthetic was intoxicating enough to be aspirational for audiences. they were still very effective as a bad guy in those movies, but if the intent of explicitly drawing Nazi comparisons to your villains is to paint them in a bad light and offer at least some critique of fascist empires, making them all really mysterious dudes with cool mind powers does a lot to undercut that point.

the ST does away with that in the form of Kylo Ren. he’s childish and intemperate and sulky and petty, driven by a desire to be a much cooler fascist ideal (ie Vader) and sees himself as such when he looks in the mirror, which is exactly how fascists behave because fascism is all of those things at its core. the New Order still uses all of those old OT-era Imperial aesthetics in their fleet and equipment, but the people leading them are a lot more honest about who they are as people: whiny entitled brats that are deeply incompetent and bad at their job. the New Order is still just as terrifying because its goals are inherently destructive and oppressive, but that doesn’t preclude them from also being deeply stupid and incompetent.

and again like, my reason for pointing this out isn’t to say that the ST is more radical or important or whatever compared to other Star Wars movies, and it’s still a deeply confused trilogy with no coherent emotional core or point, but I think one of the interesting things about it is that its portrayal of fascism is more honest. no amount of cool aesthetics or dramatic music can hide the fact that Kylo Ren is an infinitely more accurate commentary on fascism than Vader ever has been or will be.

[mysweetvillain]

The OG Reylo Stan ~ Oscar

I still remember how in a TFA Ellen interview, everyone else said there's no romance but our boy Oscar said, "Wellll you have to watch it 3-4 times to see it but it's definitely there." 👀👀

[himboskywalker]

Oh you mentioned Ben Solo and it made me curious since you do not talk of the Sequels very much.What are your thoughts on his character and Ben dying since you mentioned the difficulty of redeemed characters

Lmao I’m going to be very controversal here. I don’t talk about the sequels a lot because I think prequels fans do the same thing that OG fans did to the prequels when they first came out,which is be unreasonably rude and hateful about them. I like the sequels. Call me weird but I happen to be a Star Wars fan that actually likes Star Wars. Do I think they should have done things differently,were there things I really didn’t like and inconsistencies because of the change of directors? Yes,but I still love them and think there’s some beautiful and fun stuff they added to the gffa. Like porgs and BB8 and Oscar Isaac’s thiccc ass.

I also liked Kylo Ren. I don’t think his character was as well fleshed out as Anakin’s but listen,I study literature and story telling and archetypes in history and culture and when I sat in the theater watching The Force Awakens And he pulled off his helmet I said,oh,he’s going to get a redemption arc. I understand people disagreeing with it and not liking it,but the fact is, it was written into his character arc from the very beginning and I don’t think it was terribly deep or subversive to pick up on it. Star Wars is very blunt about how it uses the physicality of its characters to convey good and bad,like Anakin’s progression of becoming more machine as he slowly succumbs to the dark side. So when Kylo pulled off his helmet and he was young and pretty I thought,oh yeah for sure,the symbolism is all there that he’s going to get a redemption arc,because he is unmarred. And the wounds he does earn are healed in the end,unlike Anakin who keeps his.

And I think what some people don’t understand is that for a character to get a redemption arc,that does not mean they are excused for their atrocities or that other characters must forgive or excuse what they did. A redemption arc is an internal thing,it’s a fulfillment of character where the person realizes that they were in the wrong and they seek to redeem themselves,often through actions of good or self sacrifice. A very important component is forgiveness,not from other characters but from themselves. Self hate is not a path to healing,even when a person has done something horrible,that’s self torment and only internalized negativity and malice and hatred. By all the classic literary definitions Kylo/Ben gets his redemption arc,and he doesn’t need the forgiveness of others to do it,he merely needs to accept his wrong,repent and then give himself to good/good actions.

I understand that it’s very difficult to deal with a redeemed character who has committed atrocities. Because while the narrative/character arc is a personal thing,that doesn’t mean that the other characters will accept the redemption. And very understandably so,especially in the case of someone like Kylo Ren,who murdered his father and ruled an empire of blood and slavery. The truth is a path of good and redemption doesn’t end when the character reaches their climax of fulfillment/self actualization,because you reap what you sow and there are consequences to the wrongs you do. In a narrative as fast paced and focused as Star Wars,it’s more difficult to take this villain who finds peace and redemption within themself and then be like,and now they must go off to exist in the world they’ve created,and they must face their crimes and their hurt and it will be a battle every day for the rest of their life.

That being said,I wish the finale had the narrative strength to break the mold of a common redemption arc for Ben. Because I think killing him was the easy way out,because the answer of what do you do with this character when they have to face the music is a difficult one. And I do think Kylo’s arc mirrored Vader’s very closely,and in the end I would have liked to seen the mirroring character arcs break with how the self sacrifice and redemption plays out in the end. Because I think a more nuanced way to examine Ben’s redemption and sacrifice is to say that,his ultimate sacrifice would have been living and standing up to his wrongs in the world he created. His sacrifice could have been keeping to the light side of the force in a galaxy where he murdered his father and his mother and uncle died for him and he destroyed peace and happiness and life for billions-if not trillions. When Anakin finds his redemption and dies,he really doesn’t have a life to give to the light and his death makes sense. He is middle aged and kept alive by machines and doesn’t stand to live a long life because of his wounds and his redemption is the ultimate act of selflessness because of love,where his entire life was selfish decisions made for love. I’m not saying Ben’s end actions were any different from Anakin’s,they both chose to forfeit their lives for someone who deserved to live and who helped bring them to the light. But Ben had a long life before him that I personally think would have made for a phenomenal narrative impact and would have shown an incredible strength and deftness of writing; if he spent it fighting for the light and facing the consequences of turning to the dark side.

[amyltia]

Dark side, hope and redemption : Anakin and Ben

After watching the behind the scene of TROS, it was said that one way to differenciate Kylo from Ben was hopeful/hopeless. I didn’t realize that, but it does add a new light on the saga for me (maybe what I’m about to say has been obvious for a long time - like 42 years - but it never struck me clearly).

The dark side is emotion uncontroled, pain, selfishness. The light side is control, moderation, giving. Works pretty well with the 3 main couples of the saga (a meta I’m working on). I still think that’s true, but there is a another perspective possible : hope is light side and dark side is hopelessness. Let’s analyse what it means and focus on what it says of Anakin and Ben’s redemption arcs.

1. “Surrender to it” :  The dark side is the side of hopelessness

A. When all is lost, “surrender to it” : the dark side’s motto

Characters fall to the dark side when they have lost hope of being good.True villains don’t even have that wish, but Anakin and Ben “surrender to it” when they don’t believe they can be good again or that something good could happen for them. Let’s not forget that Vader and Kylo, while being those persona, are in constant pain and their life is misery, they surrender to the dark side because they have lost the hope that things could change, they are hopeless.

Darth Vader lost the life he had built, his love, his statut, his friends, etc all impossible to retrieve. But in recent comics we learn that he did try and had hope to bring Padmé back, but is that the same hope we’re talking about ? Then all sith have hope, Palpatine more than anyone, but we call that ambition and it is. What is the difference between hope and ambition ? In SW at least, I think hope is something good you can do (saving someone but for the saved one good, not the idea of Vader when he tries to bring Padme back - in ep 3, Anakin wanted Padmé to rule with him on the path of the dark side, nothing says it has changed). Hope is that you can be good or that something good that you wish for could happen. The real question is what is good then ? It’s a vast question indeed but let’s say good is “what doesn’t hurt anyone”.

Kylo Ren feels abandonned by his family, feels like it’s too late and he already is a monster. It even shows in The Rise of Kylo Ren comics, that he turns when all hope is gone aka [SPOILER when the temple is destroyed, when he believes Luke is dead, his three camarades too and especially Tai the only one telling him he could come back. Tai dead, Ben “surrenders” to the dark side and kills Voe, becoming the leader of the knights of Ren], from there there is no coming back (...until Rey!). He has became hopeless and had to surrender to the dark side and he “can’t come back to [Leia] now” as he says to Rey in TROS. He has lost his family and has no hope of finding them again, and that is what differenciates Kylo Ren from Rey : she has lost her family too but she maintains the hope of a family reunion. Tho being a delusion it is ambiguous but it still kept her alive.

When something bad happen, sinking in despair is what leads characters to the dark side.

N. B. There are then two types of characters : the jedi who turn to the dark side (Anakin, Ben) and those who become ermits and exile themselves (Yoda, Obi wan, Luke). It’s not the same reaction, it seems like experienced jedi who have failed as protectors and teachers of others don’t turn dark side but exile themselves. But young characters whose own life is ruined (at a very personnal level) turn to the dark side. Yoda, Obi wan and Luke decision to exile is not so spontaneous, and Obi wan and Yoda even had time to look for a solution : they have been desperate when Anakin turned to the dark side and after order 66, but they made up a plan (to separate the twins, protect them, etc).

For Anakin and Ben, they can’t look forward and give in to despair. But sometimes they try to move on from what happened, to rebuild their life with the hope that things could get better. This is what Ben begins to do in TLJ, leading to the hesitation of the legacy saber in the throne room.

B. The case of Ben in TLJ : finding “a new hope” and reaching the neutral area

In TLJ Ben is torn apart, his attraction for the light side rises and he finds hope again : he turns to the future, he wants to repair his life, his has this HOPE that he can, with Rey, move on and “let the past die”. I always wondered why when he says this it doesn’t sound like a dark side thing, and it’s disturbingly neutral (neither good nor bad) while being the “main villain”’s big project [it’s like Palpatine main goal being not full wicked and having us think “oh maybe, yeah it could be a good idea to destroy planets and rule the galaxy with fear under a sith’s command”]. The good/evil rate of the character main goal IS the character’s position on the good/evil spectrum, that’s why Palps is full dark side and Ben in TLJ gets closer to Rey’s position on this spectrum, closer than ever while he is Kylo Ren : that’s why the legacy saber hesitates between the two. He has at this moment a hope for his future.

In TLJ, Kylo and Rey both move on this spectrum and meet in a neutral/grey area (on the spectrum below, Palps works as a control sample)

Dark side : Palps (ruling), Kylo in TFA (surrending to the dark side)

Neutral (aka grey) : Kylo in TLJ (ruling with Rey for a new order, moving on : hope of a future), Rey in TLJ (she lost hope on her family but wants to be good)

Light side : Rey in TFA (being good and hope of finding her family)

But hope is found and hope is lost for Ben in TLJ : right after the throne room scene, because of Rey’s refusal he goes full dark side back (aka trying to kill Luke and the Resistance) because he has lost what made him reach the grey area in the first place : the hope that Rey could help him move on.

In their last force bond in TLJ, after Crait, he has one last moment of hope...only to be rejected again, destroying the last bit of hope and of light side in him.

My guess is that that is why we see him so determined in TROS, he sunk back into despair but like in TLJ he still wish to move on from it with Rey, only he wants Rey for selfish reasons (just like Vader tried to bring Padmé back to help himself).

2. The light side is hope

Luke was "the new hope" of the galaxy. At the end of TLJ, his projection and implication has brought once again hope in the galaxy (as the broom boy shows us)

Ben has hope again. (SPOIL COMICS in those we may assume while he was Ben Solo that tho he felt it difficult to belong to the Jedi Academy, he had hope he still could fit in, it’s the loss of that hope for the reasons shown it those comics that makes him turn). TURNS because he believes he’s gone too far, can’t fit in and won’t be accepted. Believes it’s too late. TURNS again because he understands it’s not too late and he can still save Rey and do good, hope in himself that he is not the monster he thinks he is.

Anakin : he wants to be good and has the hope he can (and he does great until the end of episode 3). He has hope to stop being a slave and win the race in TPM, to become a Jedi and win Padme’s love in AOTC, to save her in ROTS....until one point. TURNS because he lost hope to save his mother and then to save Padme. TURNS again because he has hope to save Luke and to be good again, once again hope in himself to not be the monster he thinks he is.

Rey has the hope her parents will return. When she lost this hope in TLJ she could have went full dark side but she succeeds in the trial and stays in the light. But in TROS when the trial, like in a fairy tale, presents itself for the second time, she almost fails : learning that she comes from darkness makes her slowly lose hope in herself, therefore falling to the dark side. She doesn’t completely but she does get close.

There goes the second spectrum :

Dark side : Palps (ruling), Kylo in TFA and TROS (surrending to the dark side), Darth Vader (lost hope in life and himself, believe power will compensate his despair)

Darkish : Rey in TROS (on the process of loosing hope in herself)

Neutral (aka grey) : Kylo in TLJ (ruling with Rey for a new order, moving on : hope of a future), Rey in TLJ (she lost hope on her family)

Light side : Rey in TFA (being good and finding her family), Luke, Anakin, Ben (hope they can do good)

N.B. This meta is not about Luke so I won’t complete his journey on the spectrum (in TLJ I mean)

N.B 2 A meta about power and dark saide/light side could be a good addition to this one.

3. Hope for redemption : Luke and his father in OT VS Rey and Ben (TLJ VS TROS)

In ROTJ, it was Luke who had hope he father could be redeemed, in TLJ it’s Rey who has hope for Ben. So far it’s the same

But in TROS it changes : Rey succombing slowly to the dark side has (according to the theory I just explained) lost hope on Ben. Still can debate on why she healed him right after stabbing him (hope ? love ? regret ? no wish to kill ?). And Kylo Ren who didnt have hope, after the stabbing and healing and scene with Han gets hope again. Her compassion makes him gain hope in himself and he understands that “as long as he’s with her he is on the right path” (quote from the Making of of TROS).

So while TLJ repeats the dynamic of hope and redemption of the OT, TROS breaks it (but I think it’s a good thing). Rey has lost hope in Kylo Ren and in herself, or at least is in the process of losing it.

1- As she is surrending to the dark side, she looses hope on what she believed (herself and Ben) : the correlation is there. So far the theory works.

2- So the hope of Ben’s redemption still comes from Rey (the compassionate act of healing him, but it is not her first motive like it was for Luke or in TLJ, it is only a side effect), Leia and the memory of Han, but from himself too. Vader saves his son and it redeems him, but Ben is redeemed before he does anything, his turn is mental, it is a decision : he decides to go save Rey, and from that decision, due to his resurgence of hope in himself, he turns good again. It’s a small difference but it’s important because it’s the difference between Ben and Anakin redemptions : Anakin acts spontaneously and this good act redeems him, Ben has to FIRST forgive himself to be redeemed, his redemption is much easier, it only takes him to forgive himself and have hope in himself again, just with that he is Ben Solo again.

Conclusion

Anakin and Ben have very similar arcs but the differences are important. First, in the third movie of each trilogy : while Luke actively saves Vader, Rey doesn’t and it’s up to Kylo himself to complete this function on himself. Secondly, it takes a spontaneous action to Vader to be redeemed, while Kylo just has to gain hope in himself. Ben litteraly was his own biggest enemy. It’s not saving Rey that makes him turn, he already had, while Vader understands afterwards that he has turned. Ben’s redemtpion is a mental and psychological process, a decision, a choise consciensously made, while Anakin understands afterwards that he had turned, after his spontaneous act. Two different redemptions for two different journeys. But both show the HUGE importance “hope” has and always has had in the Star Wars universe - it’s not for nothing that the very first movie is titled “A New Hope”. The PT, OT and ST have this core thematic continuity about hope being the way to the light side, and despair and hopelessness leading to the dark side.

There are three types of characters according to this hope distinction. Wether it is to fight this despair, to find hope again thanks to someone or from within, Ben and Anakin have the most complex relation to hope and display the spectrum of intention the most extreme. On the other hand, Luke is the representation of hope in the OT and he regains that status again at the end of TLJ. Third type is Rey, she seems to be like Luke but absolutely isn’t (which is great). She is much more greyish and is always fighting to maintain her hope (in her family, in herself, in Ben), because she is aware of her weakness and choses denial to maintain this hope. That’s why it’s very intersting in TROS to see her loosing this hope from time to time, but not enough to be surrending to the dark side. Because she understood the primary lesson of Star Wars : that the best way to remain in the light side or to get to it is to have and to find hope, I think that’s my favourite lesson from Star Wars.

Others main meta

(1) Force jump/flying (TROS meets The Rise of Kylo Ren or Kylo Ren finally meets his peer in Rey) :

(2) TROS’s Ben as a mirror to Anakin’s arc or what is a Skywalker ?

[de-temps-en-tempss]

Not me spending hours looking for a Twitter thread I read in December discussing Ben Solo’s redemption through the lens of someone who struggles with addiction/mental illness & how we deserved to see Ben live to overcome those struggles and face consequences for his actions rather than die because Ben dying is like saying people who struggle with addiction/mental illness don’t deserve happy endings/death is the ultimate redemption or something like that. Anyway, if anyone knows what thread I’m talking about it, help a girl out 🙃

[fiamminga95]

Kylo Ren e Sir Galahad

Non ci sorprende l’idea che Kylo Ren sia il “Nobile cavaliere” all’interno della ST in Star Wars. Più di una volta è stato raffigurato come tale. Il suo abito in ep 7 è simile a quello di un templare, la sua spada con l’elsa è tipicamente associata ai cavalieri, e in molte immagini (anche promozionali) lo si vede in ginocchio, come tipicamente venivano rappresentanti i cavalieri medievali.

Ho deciso di fare questo piccolo paragone tra la più recente immagine di Kylo/Ben con quella di un famoso cavaliere del ciclo arturiano, Sir Galahad. C’è un famoso quadro che è praticamente identico all’immagine che vediamo nel trailer recente, di George Frederic Watts:

L’idea di paragonare due immagini non è mia: è venuta in mente alle fantastiche ragazze di Girls With Sabers, (che apprezzo, anche se non condivido molte delle loro idee) perciò a loro va tutto il credito, ma pensavo che se ne dovrebbe parlare di più.

Chi è sir Galahad? Figlio di Lancillotto, va alla ricerca del Santo Graal, così come era stato anche il destino del padre. Tuttavia, Lancillotto viene rifiutato dal Graal e riesce solo a vederlo in sogno mentre invece suo figlio, dal cuore puro, ottiene la salvezza. Così Galahad arriva al graal insieme a Parsival e e Bors. Volete sapere come finisce la sua storia? Una volta compiuto ciò in cui il padre aveva fallito, per via del suo amore adultero con Ginevra (Anidala, ti vedo) chiede di morire e infine ASCENDE IN CIELO. Dopo di lui, anche Parsival ottenuta la stessa salvezza lo segue, mentre il terzo cavaliere Bors, torna a Camelot.

Ora, io non dico che il nuovo trio (dal mio punto di vista Rey-Ben-Finn) debba finire così ma dico che il nuovo trio deve finire così. Non sono in pochi ad immaginare Rey e Ben sopravvivere alla loro ultima ordalia e poi fuggire insieme una volta morti e rinati, mentre Finn potrebbe decidere di rimanere, per così dire, nel mondo e avere una vita normale. Ma io penso che questa immagine, soprattutto perché il quadro di Watt è molto famoso in ambiti di lingua inglese, non è stata imitata a caso.

In ultimo, volevo condividere con voi una piccola citazione dal poema Sir Galahad, di Alfred Tennyson, scritta in pieno periodo romantico (vv. 61-64):

A maiden knight-to me is given, Such hope, I know not fear;I yearn to breathe the airs of heaven, That often meet me here.

 E alla fine vorrei compararlo con il poema che si è stato visto sulla moodboard di TROS, come ispirazione, A Great Wagon di Rumi:

 Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there.

 Mi dispiace non aver trovato queste poesie in italiano. Se qualcuno sa dove trovarle tradotte, per favore commenti.

[thornsickle]

The Force or the Skywalkers? Love or Power? What is this really all about? (a final case on Ben Solo’s fate and the future of Star Wars)

So, you know, the final few weeks, oh it’s all fine, going in open-minded….

It’s all coming out now, isn’t it? (my smug subconscious is smiling rather annoyingly right now)

I’m getting this all down now because it’s the last opportunity to do so, to speculate about what this means for me, what Star Wars is, and how that determines how I think, if done properly and adhering to this story as a whole, this saga should end. I also preface this by warning that I still believe, if executed well, other endings are well-deserved alternatives too. But look, I’m a fan and as fans we all have our owns feelings towards this work, and it would be hypocritical of me to say I don’t have nagging questions. This doesn’t mean I won’t accept or like the film if it isn’t something along the lines of what I am about to discuss. But I think it is important to be honest with yourself about your own true expectations and at the same time being able to appreciate what has been mulled over and worked over to death by creatives far more experienced than yourself.

Okay…. So now that’s out of the way…

I watched an interview JJ did somewhere recently and The Chosen One featurette, from way back during The Revenge of the Sith.

JJ talked in this interview for TROS, if I remember correctly, about how this story was a nine film saga, and therefore had to conclude the story as a whole and make sense if seen as the final part of this nine part story. He also talked about going back and really seeing what the story was ultimately about, in order to understand how to conclude the story.

And so here I am, questioning myself about what indeed Star Wars is really all about and how that determines the fate of our final Skywalker, Ben Solo.

Of course, on one hand, we can look at this all rather cynically. Disney wants to produce more Star Wars, of course it does, and the idea of concluding the Skywalker saga so they can move on and make their own content is blatantly clear. A passing on of the torch if you like. Skywalker = George Lucas’ material and they want to make their own stuff, make it their own. Makes sense, right?

But then I thought, well, what is Star Wars without the Skywalkers? It seems pretty obvious to me that, for George Lucas, when you talk about Star Wars, you talk about the story of the Skywalkers. When you watch the Chosen One featurette, it’s clear Star Wars = a family soap opera, the center of which consists of the most powerful force family in the galaxy, both victors and victims, whose actions determine the fate of the galaxy. For GL, it’s even more condensed. It is about Darth Vader and his redemption.

What makes Star Wars what it is? Is it the Force? The idea that GL created, a galaxy far, far away with Jedi (good guys) and Sith (bad guys) fighting over a power source which in itself wishes for balance? A little, one might say, like ‘a cinematic universe’, where multiple storylines can be total within this one galaxy? Disney, I feel, does look at it a little like this, and sees the opportunity of telling other stories (like the Mandalorian) where the central themes are still there, moral issues, corruption, power etc. But I feel that doesn’t really explain what makes Star Wars special, what makes it so ‘personal’ to so many people.

Ultimately….. I don’t think this is what Star Wars is. George Lucas is not Tolkien, he’s more like JK Rowling. What I mean to say, is what makes Star Wars George Lucas’ Star Wars, is it’s characters and the conflicts that ensue between them. It is a story about the Skywalkers ultimately, not the Force. The characters are the soul of the story, not the bigger themes at hand.

But is it as simple as that?

If you asked me what I thought, if this was a story about Skywalkers or the Force, which is it that makes Star Wars the iconic phenomenon it is, I would say….. Well, actually both.

Why? Because the Skywalkers, their whole deal, is about the conflict between power and love. The Force and their bonds. Each being powerful in their own ways, not just with the Force but within the galaxy. Each has had a profound affect within this galaxy, and ultimately their bonds have been destroyed time and again because of a corruption within, because of power getting between their connections with one another. The Force/Power is both their blessing and their curse. And of course, this is no more true than for Kylo Ren/Ben Solo.

And for me, that is what makes Star Wars special. It is this conflict between a family and a greater power, the Force. It is this conflict which makes the story have it’s sense of gravitas and meaning, enveloping so many other major key themes and elements, but distilled this is what it is about. This is what makes Kylo Ren such a great character and therefore one half of the major focus in this trilogy. His connection with Rey is what makes her involuntarily part of this story, despite what Ben said himself in TLJ, she is, ironically, part of all this because of his initial connection with her. And the Skywalkers are all about their connections with their loved ones, despite everything.

We have to return for a minute back to this issue with Disney and the transition made between them and George Lucas. So, I made my case that for GL this is a story about the Skywalkers and how Disney wants to step away from that to make their own path, taking the main ingredients with the galaxy and the Force. It’s funny how this is reflected in the story, because in many ways, Rey represents their future, a Star Wars filled with the unfamiliar, not connected to any already established figures. Kylo Ren is the past, he represents Skywalkers past, the ghost of Darth Vader looming behind him. He wishes to look to the future but is stuck in the past, while Rey wishes to look to the past but is pushed into the future against her will.

This isn’t a question of whether Disney will do this. They will, eventually. I know some remain pessimistic over whether they would have the guts to truly say goodbye to the Skywalker family, but I believe if done properly, this is achievable. As long as they understand what made the Skywalkers so special, I believe they will be able to create similar personal stories exploring the same universal themes in a way that keeps to the same spirit that made the original trilogy so special. And in a way, they have already started this, with the central relationship in this sequel trilogy, between Rey and Kylo Ren. I don’t need to write any more on these two for now, since if you’ve read this far, I’m sure you already have read enough metas to know what makes their dynamic the central story of this particular trilogy and therefore legitimises the existence of this trilogy. 

Speaking of Kylo Ren then, if this is a saga about the conflict between love and power, how does that determine his fate? I thought long and hard about this, about what makes sense when you look at episodes one through eight, at what George Lucas thinks the story is, and what Disney wants out of this too.

It’s my opinion that you need to first of all make a clear distinction here between Kylo Ren and Darth Vader. For GL at least, one to six is about redemption, the chosen one’s redemption through the love for his son.

Will Ben Solo’s story also be about redemption? In a way, yes, I do believe so, because this is a fairytale and needs a happy ending after all. But that is not all. It is not simply because this is a kid’s film and therefore needs a happy conclusion for the Skywalkers. For Ben Solo, it is much more.

Does that mean I think it’s a rehash of Vader’s arc? Absolutely not. Redemption, yes, but that is actually as far as it goes. The distinction between the two, is that Kylo Ren is far more aware of the changes going on within himself compared to Darth Vader. Vader never admitted to an inner conflict within, Kylo Ren can’t shut up about it.

Vader’s choices, or should I say Anakin’s choices, including those he takes in the prequels, are all done with a certain naivety which GL talks about in the Chosen One featurette, as if he is unaware that he is indeed making choices, choices that are coming as a result to the dark side of the Force taking a hold of him. GL makes it clear that Anakin is unaware of this change within himself, his own tragic self-destructive path towards becoming Darth Vader. It is only his final act, when he chooses to save Luke, where GL makes it incredibly clear that this is a choice, a choice he consciously makes. There is a self-awareness that had remained dormant for over six films which finally reawakens.

In comparison, Ben Solo is aware of his choices, even if he is still tragically unaware of his own mistakes and misunderstandings concerning both himself and those around him, a similarity he does share with Anakin. Rey talks of Ben’s choice not being made in TLJ, but by the end of that film, it is clear Kylo Ren made the choice to create a new order and not join Rey. Luke may have set him on his path to becoming Kylo Ren, with Snoke seducing him in the process, but I still see this is a transformation self-imposed to a certain extent, with Ben knowing it is a struggle, a choice he is making, because he feels his family had rejected him, and therefore he cannot remain as Ben Solo, because Ben Solo was rejected by the world. This is a very different story, and despite their similarities, I think it is key to understand these are two very different people, though I know many would disagree. I feel however there is a lot more self-awareness going on with Adam Driver’s performance as Kylo Ren, and I do not believe it is without reason.

So how is this relevant you may say to the conclusion of his story?

Because, Ben has made conscious choices. Darth Vader had not. And what Darth Vader did, was only possible, because he was put in a dire situation, pushed to the edge, forced to make a choice, just as we all must do, when put in life-threatening situations. And to repeat this again, I believe, would be redundant and go against Ben Solo’s arc and the point of his story. What I believe therefore ought to be the final arc to his story, is his realisation of his past mistakes. His choices, his terrible choices, which, despite what happened to him, he made himself. A chance to realise this, is something Darth Vader never had the chance to do because he had gone too far down. I think it’s clear from The Last Jedi that this is not the case for Ben Solo and Rey, quite rightly, recognises this. The final shot between them, and the longing and regret I’d say we see from Kylo Ren, more than proves this.

Ben must realise the terrible mistakes he has made, to learn of his failures, yes, failure most of all, for the greatest teacher, failure is. And who better to help him realise this, than the one who has just learnt this himself, the most important lesson of all in the previous film, a film which is in fact all about failure? Luke’s purpose in TROS would then fit in perfectly, showing true growth in his character and also how TLJ connects with TROS.

Darth Vader’s arc was about finding himself again, realising he had a choice and making it, redeeming himself in the process. We know from TLJ that the same does not apply for Kylo Ren, we were set up to expect it but it did not happen, so why would it work here, with simply Palpatine replacing Snoke as the bad guy? It doesn’t work in my book.

Having Ben Solo, with the help of Luke Skywalker, realise his failures and come to terms with regret for the past, is part of his journey. Not killing the past, but reconciling with it, just as Luke did in the previous film. And that kind of transformative epiphany does not take place when the love of your life is in danger of being electrocuted by some old creepy dude. It is a redemption of sorts, but one which would make sense for Ben Solo’s character as a self-reflective moment outside of his connection to Rey, rather his connection to his his past, family’s past, their legacy.

And now we come to the million dollar question. Honestly, I will be happy either way come December 18th and either scenario is understandable, but I will tell you why thematically Ben Solo ultimately should live.

We come back to what I think is the theme of Star Wars. The conflict between love and power, right? This conflict is what makes the story interesting, and therefore feeds the necessity I suppose to have nine films revolving around the Skywalkers. So how can it end? This family, if written into the history books of the galaxy, would ultimately be seen as powerful figures who shaped the fate of the galaxy. That is what makes them relevant. Plenty of people in the galaxy I’m sure have problems with sons, daughters, partners just like the Skywalker family do, but we don’t see them on the silver screen because their actions don’t have galactic sized consequences. A minor squabble doesn’t result in a planet exploding or the corruption of a galactic republic. Without the element of the Force or theme of power, it really would just be a regular sized soap opera like GL quite rightly says SW is, an episode of Gary the stormtrooper from Robot Chicken having an tiff with his wife over ‘take your child to work’ day and yelling at his daughter for not resisting Obi Wan’s Mind Probe or whatever but anyway I’m getting wildly off topic and it’s besides the point-

What I’m getting at is that where there is conflict, must come resolution. The Skywalkers’ conflict between love and power must be resolved. And some resolution it would be, to simply say, well, love and power can never be resolved so inevitably the only thing that can resolve it is death and that puts an end to their conflict and therefore unfortunate influence on the galaxy.

A bit of a bummer… right?

And we can sit here and talk all we like about Rey, but she is not a Skywalker, and although I know she will represent the future of the Force and what I see as a sort of Age of Enlightenment/Renaissance for the force sensitives within the galaxy after this Dark Age which is how I see the Star Wars Saga, that does not mean she can wholly represent the conclusion of the Skywalker story. Ben Solo must be part of that.

So what to do?

Kylo Ren will be Ben Solo again, we all know it. I also believe it should be done in a fashion where it is a conscious decision which he makes, not under any pressures to do so. In doing so, he will resolve the conflict between love and power for his family, because he realises what is truly important and can finally grow beyond his family (we are what they grow beyond) and therefore no longer suffer from what has plagued his family for all these years. He achieves what he had, in fact, always wanted to achieve, to go beyond his family and finally finds balance between the power that resides within himself and his bond with those around him, but most importantly with Rey.

Ben also comes to terms with how destructive and seductive power truly is and how it has destroyed his family and the bonds between them. He symbolically, or if I was writing this, literally, lets go of this, lets go of the Force and steps down, thereby ending the story of how his family had dictated the path of the galaxy, returning to anonymity. With this, the Skywalker story ends, no longer a part of history as they once were, returning to who they initially were, as Kylo Ren says rather arrogantly in TLJ, willingly no longer having a part in this story. They can no longer be taken advantage of by anyone. They have grown beyond.

One final point I would like to say, is Ben Solo of course could be killed after all this. He could turn back as Ben Solo and then be killed, and this would still honour the basic points I have made above, but at the same time, this would be the easy way out. Less nuanced, because again, it suggests death is still the only option because of past mistakes. But that is the only reason, at least that I can think of, to have Ben Solo be killed off at this point. It would not be in service to his redemptive arc, which would already be completed by this point in time (I suggest after an epiphany with a conversation with Luke Skywalker over failure). So what would his death serve, as a purpose to his story? Not much, in my opinion, unlike with Vader where his death was an integral part of his redemption.

And as I have suggested, it is possible to never explore the Skywalkers again, if Disney so chose, by ending it this way, with Ben Solo disappearing into the mists of time. Yet the option of course is always still there for Disney, if they wish it. Best of both worlds. Though in this case, I would wish them not to and simply move on to other stories and new, unexplored places and characters.

Characters that are hopefully just as compelling as the Skywalkers were, with us as listeners still being compelled by stories about good versus evil, the conflict between power and love, with the Force a constant overseeing it all.

Please comment or reblog, as I would love to know what you all think! I had been meaning to say no more, but I felt like there were things here I felt like sharing, a final note on this fantastic saga, before we go see this final installment. Again, I am going in open-minded, these are more musings and what I would want the story to be, but not necessarily expectations. I have no expectations, aside from a cracking good film with a story that is finely executed, whatever that may turn out to be.