#kylo ren meta

[kylosbreedingkink]

The big takeaway from Hyperspace Stories is that Kylo still feels the light so strongly that it completely blindsided him and beckoned him to go help someone he barely even likes.

He was so hyper fixated on this Force presence he felt that he was ready to kill for it, just for the Force to intervene and give him the sense that someone he was supposed to be working with was in danger.

This isn't the first time this has been shown to happen. It is also the only thing that Snoke can be referring to as the Light distracting him. If we go by the idea that the Light is inherently selfless and the Dark is selfish - him stopping what he was doing due to go help someone is a very Light sided thing to do.

Which is exactly what we know of Kylo. Someone struggling between the Light and the Dark, feeling it tear him in two ways. So much of his life had been given up for the Light, that selflessness in helping other, doing what others want for him, that his constant desire to do what he wants for himself (or believes he wants for himself, at least) is the only rebellion he has, and is his link to the Dark.

But despite being so entrenched in the Dark, despite being so strong in it, the Light still beckons him and he can't help but follow its call.

I also wonder a bit on this exact scenario - he used to teach at Luke's school. No doubt he went off on trips with students and no doubt he learned to keep a general feel of where the students were, making sure they were safe and not in trouble. Exactly the sort of skill that a teacher of the Force would use. This ability is probably so well honed that he can't turn it off, so Hux's ego-driven bullshit and that inherent Light sided selflessness dragged him from his desire in this moment.

The comic ends how this post begins, Snoke commenting on the Light in Kylo. Though interestingly, despite telling him he should have focused more on his own desire in the Dark and found out what the Force presence was instead of the Light sided need to help a comrade, Snoke is not aggressive about it. He seems accepting that this is a part of his student, almost resigned to it. Many times Snoke has used violence in his training of Kylo, but in this instance where Kylo has used the light, he simply tells him to try and snuff it out.

There is no anger here from Snoke at Kylo for not succeeding due to the Light, when Snoke has shown anger at Kylo for many other things.

[artist-issues]

I just NEED everyone to agree with me that Rey's parents are nobody. We should all agree about that. We should collectively, as an audience, say, "clearly the best idea was to have Kylo Ren be a dynastic heir to the major legends of the Force who wants to throw off his family's shadow, while his rival is nobody from nowhere who wants to belong--so we're going to stick with that."

And then, what should have happened is, Rey can finish her story by being able to say, "My parents might have abandoned me, but that doesn't mean I'm worthless." And eventually Kylo Ren can say, "My family might have been powerful, but I don't have to be," and all those other things that they can bounce off of each other as great foils.

It can keep being a good story about accepting past failures and choosing to grow beyond them.

Let's just all collectively ignore Rey Skypatine because of how silly that was. I mean. If they can just ignore the setups in the previous movie, we can ignore their choices in the conclusion. Right?? Right? Tell me I'm right

[artbyblastweave]

I think about Star Wars a lot more than I post about Star Wars, and I've had some free time recently to type up some thoughts on Episode 7 that've been swirling around in my head for a couple of years. There were a few ideas and plot beats, and moments of apparent self-examination in Episode 7 which I thought were fairly compelling, even though they ultimately paid no dividends:

First was Finn’s character concept. “Star Wars as experienced from the perspective of a Stormtrooper undergoing a crisis of faith” is a rich hook; humanizing and giving a face to what's basically the platonic implementation of the faceless mook. Unfortunately, the potency of the arc was undercut by the pre-existing textual ambiguity as to what stormtroopers actually are. Star Wars extended canon has settled on the idea that each trilogy features an entirely novel cohort of white-clad mooks, each with a fundamentally different underlying dynamic. The clones and the First-Order forces are different flavors of slave army; in contrast, the stormtroopers are more frequently portrayed in the expanded universe as military careerists, stormtrooper being a thing you work up to rather than a gig for a fresh conscript. A slave-soldier who defects is a very different character from a military careerist who defects, and they invite different analysis. There's a bait-and-switch going on here, in that Finn gestures in the direction of the familiar OT stormtroopers but can't comment on or examine them because he's actually part of a novel dynamic invented for the new movies. And there's one final nail in the coffin here, signaled by the number of times I've had to invoke the expanded universe so far. When Finn debuted, the racists were of course, legion, but I also ran into a number of people who were sincerely confused as to why they'd recast Temuera Morrison. Going off the seven films that existed at the time, it wasn't unreasonable to read the prequel trilogy as an origin story for where the OT stormtroopers came from. Going only off the nine films that exist now, it still isn't unreasonable! It's muddied from so many different directions by their failure to establish the ground rules in the mainline films before they tried to put on subversive airs about it. I am still irritated by this.

Next up is how Han Solo was written. I actually liked the tack they took with him quite a bit. Because initially, right, his role in the movie is just to be Han Solo. He's back, and he hasn't changed! He's still kicking ass and taking names, he's still the lovable scoundrel you knew and loved from your childhood- and the principle cast members react to his presence with the same reverence the film's trying to invoke in the audience, they've grown up hearing the same stories about him. Except that episode 7, at least, is also very aware of the fact that if Han Solo is still recognizably the same guy thirty years on, it indicates that things have gone totally off the rails for him. We find out that the lovable rogue routine is the result of him backsliding, his happy ending blown up by massive personal tragedy rooted in communicative failures and (implicitly) his parental shortcomings. It feels deliberately in conversation with the nostalgic impulse driving the entire film- here's your childhood hero back just as you remember, here's what that stagnation costs. And it also feels like it's in conversation with what was a fairly common strain of Han Solo Take- the idea that Ep. 6 cuts off at a very convenient point, and that Han and Leia's fly-by-night wartime relationship wouldn't survive the rigors of domesticity. Obviously, that's not the only direction you can take with the character; the old EU basically threaded the needle of keeping Han recognizable without rolling back his character development gains. But it felt like they were actually committing to a direction, a direction that was aware of the space, and not a reflexively deferential and flattering one, which at the time I appreciated! The problem, of course, is that for it to really land, you need to have a really, really strong idea of what actually went down-of what Han's specific shortcomings and failures were. And given the game of ping-pong they proceeded to play with Kylo Ren's characterization, this turned out to be. Less than doable.

Kylo Ren is the third thing about Episode 7 that I liked. His character concept is basically an extended admission by the filmmakers that there's no way to top Vader as an antagonist. Instead, they lean into the opposite direction- they make him underwhelming on purpose. Someone who's chasing Vader's legacy in the same way any post-OT Star Wars villain is going to, pursuing Vader's aesthetic and the associated power without really understanding or undergoing the convoluted web of suffering and dysfunction that produced Vader. It's framed as a genuine twist that there's nothing particularly wrong with his face under that helmet. Whatever it takes to be Vader, he doesn't have it, and he knows that he doesn't have it, and the pursuit of it drives him to greater and greater acts of cartoonish villainy. The failure to one-up Vader is offloaded to the character instead of the writers, and it was genuinely interesting to watch. For one movie. The problem, of course, is that if the entire character archetype is "Vader, but less compelling," you can't try to give the bastard Vader's exact character arc. You can't retroactively bolt on a Vader-tier tragic backstory when you spent a whole movie signaling that whatever happened to him wasn't as compelling as what happened to Vader. You can't milk his angst for two more movies when it's the kind of angst on display in "Rocking the Suburbs" by Ben Folds!

There's a level on which I feel like Moff Gideon was a semi-successful implementation of Vader-Wannabe concept; he's the same kind of middling operator courting the Vader Aesthetic for clout, but he's doing it in the context of the imperial warlord era, where there's a lot of practical power available to anyone who can paint themselves to the Imperial Remnants as a plausible successor to Vader. Hand in Hand with this obvious politicking, Gideon is loathsome, which relieves the writers of the burden of having to plausibly redeem the guy; he's doing exactly what he needs to do and there'll never be a mandate to expand him beyond what his characterization can support. Unfortunately, the calculated and cynical nature of how he's emulating Vader precludes the immaturity and hero-worship elements on display with Kylo, which is unfortunate; the sincerity on display in Kylo's pursuit of authenticity is an important part of why he worked, to the extent that he worked at all, and it'd be worth unpacking in a better trilogy. As he stands Kylo is a clever idea, and that's all he is- he lacks the scaffolding to go from merely clever to actively good.

[resurgentclass-stardestroyer]

[From the TLJ novelization]

Fixating on this again, because it's so interesting. Like I said in this post, Hux appealing to 'brute force' kinda seems counterintuitive at first glance, because Hux is very intellectually-focused and the antithesis of physical force if anything, and we tend to associate brutality with physical force. But really it's very fitting for Hux, because Hux's methods are absolutely brutal, e.g. Starkiller and his child soldiers program. They lack grace and nuance, his plans revolve around solving problems through sheer force. He is intellectually brutal. So Hux certainly has an appreciation for brute force.

And yet... Who's the first character that comes to my mind when 'brute force' is mentioned? Ren, of course. And despite his apparent appreciation for brute force, Hux absolutely loathes Ren. The irony skips right over his head.

Supported with this quote from Abrams, there's this clear parallel with Ren being the picture of spiritual and physical brute force, and Hux being the picture of intellectual and ideological brute force.

And Snoke is purposefully keeping them at odds with one another...

[luke-shywalker]

I was skimming this interview Adam Driver did where he was saying 1) he’s not returning to Star Wars (good, let Ben Solo rest in peace lol) and 2) the original plan for Kylo’s character was to have him be the opposite of Vader, starting out unsure in the dark side but becoming more evil through the trilogy.

Y’all know I was fighting for my boy to be redeemed because redemption is one of the central themes of Star Wars. And a lot of the anti-Kyle Ron fans’ reasoning for not wanting him to be redeemed was that “he didn’t deserve it” (to which I was like, yes, correct, redemption is receiving mercy we do not deserve and could never earn.)

But I find the idea of Kylo Ren becoming more and more dark side and never returning to the light pretty interesting, because while redemption and forgiveness is a core part of my worldview, life in the broken world doesn’t always go that way. Sometimes parents watch their child reject the light and embrace the darkness, never to return, despite all their prayers and attempts at intervention.

We know TROS was missing a villain and that’s why somehow, Palpatine returned. It would have been interesting if Supreme Leader Kylo Ren was the big bad in the final movie. (Redeemed Kylo in TROS didn’t really feel real to me btw…I felt like I was watching Adam Driver act out “male lead” but not really know who his character was or who he was playing anymore lol)

I don’t have a lot more thought out to say, but I was just imagining dark side Kylo in his final form getting defeated in the last movie and everyone in the Resistance cheering like at the end of ROTJ, except for Leia. And Leia wondering why her father, the one she hates and can never forgive, was the one to turn back to the light and lives on in the Force, but her son, who she has loved since before he was born and cannot help but forgive, would not turn back and is gone forever.

[sad-stucky-shipper-107]

I apologize in advance for spamming the tags but I just had a cursed thought and I need you all to also think about this:

Ik some of us don't really like to acknowledge the sequels but Palpatine rlly said trans rights lmfao when he was tryna transfer his consciousness into Rey's body, like man simply did not give a fuck the body he was trying possess was female.

[raisedbythetv89]

I just started watching White Collar for the first time and a realization about most male written and directed media smacked me DIRECTLY in the face which is that SO MUCH media written by a for men is genuinely just male nerd self insert, non-canon compliant, AU fan fiction??????

Like them writing and creating stories is just “ok so these guys are soooo smooth and well dressed and women just flock to them at every turn and they can get away with anything and everyone believes and supports them when they do mess up and everyone thinks they’re sooooo brilliant”

This media isn’t just portraying women “for the male gaze” it’s EVERYTHING. Everything in these stories is supporting and uplifting mens’ delusions about who they are, how they’re perceived, and how they should expect to be treated. Which is incredibly ironic because anytime media portrays women or the world in the female gaze in a more “in my ideal world things would be like this” instead of portraying us as nothing but weak, broken, unloved, traumatized, victims OR one dimensional sex symbols with no needs or emotions they’re screaming, crying, throwing up about how stupid and unrealistic the story is….

This explains SO MUCH about how male characters are handled in shows like Veronica Mars and Buffy. Even though they’re shows staring women all the “good guys” get the delusional self insert, y/n, AU fan fic treatment (Buffy still wants Angel in season 3 and Riley in season 6 even after everything they did and Xander is CONSTANTLY forgiven for all the atrocious shit he says and does and is wanted by all women besides Buffy. Veronica forgiving Duncan and getting back together with him and even CONSIDERING Piz could truly only be born from men being delusional AS FUCK. Writing how they want men to be treated by women rather than being based in reality and the woman having even an ounce of self respect.)

Which is why the “bad boys”, Logan and Spike are such better characters. They’re so much more realistic, they get held accountable by the women in their lives, have better growth and are just way more appealing and attractive because they’re not the walking embodiment of what MEN want men to be treated and act like.

Oh god this feels like such cursed knowledge to have like it’s important to see this media for what it really is but now watching it feels that much yuckier like finding the porn of someone you DO NOT LIKE but like their emotional porn “this is what life would be like in my fantasies” and they’re the fantasies of the grossest men alive 😭😭😭😭😭

Also it shows their emotional maturity like all of these things are what 13 year old boys fantasize about not actual mature, grown men….

Also just realized this is why the Star Wars sequels were so hated. It wasn’t just Rey being powerful and loved by her found family and Kylo. It was that the movies showed the reality of men like Kylo. They destroyed the male fantasy Darth Vader created. They aren’t super cool, powerful badasses. They’re extremely sad, broken, temper tantrum throwing lost little boys who just want love and acceptance but have lost the ability to accept it because of the dark side (aka the patriarchy) which is the reality and that made me SOOOOO ANGRY lololololololol and this is why Joss Whedon THOUGHT making Spike into a sad pathetic mama’s boy of a poet would make the audience not like him because that DOES work on misogynistic men who enjoy the male gaze but does NOT work and only humanizes and makes Spike even more complex and lovable to the female gaze 💀💀💀💀 oh good lord

[forlouren]

I am honestly partial to the idea of Darth Plagueis' being Qimir's Sith Master─although I could understand that had it been confirmed in an interview instead of revealed in the show itself, that could be disappointing─It doesn't worsen, or better Qimir's chance of survival. Plagueis is going to crash in on their [ Osha and Qimir ] party either way, seeing as they are all on the same planet, and he has interest in the concept of life created by the Force.

Qimir is evidently a practitioner of Darth Bane's teachings, even if loosely so, seeing he recites the Sith code to Mae. He lives beneath a cortosis mine in an unknown planet, which I could only assume is a callback/reference to Darth Tenebrous' ( Plagueis' master ) who owned a claim of cortosis in a planet named Bal'demnic in the EU. Plagueis having a former apprentice before Palpatine doesn't ruin anything important either. Nor do I think it contradicts any of Qimir's unorthodox-sith characterization, or my earlier reading of such.

If Qimir is the apprentice of Plagueis; it would re-contextualize his want for an acolyte somewhat, I suppose. But there is poetry in that in the rejection from the mother, he ran into the teeth of the beast to feel held, and even in that, he didn't find absolution. So naturally, he'll seek another path.

[kyluxtrashpit]

Transferring this post from twitter, with some edits and additions, because the mess that was the development of the sequel trilogy fascinates me on an extremely deep level

Okay so. You’re probably aware that Adam Driver gave an interview a few weeks ago where he said that the original plan for Kylo in the sequel trilogy was to get progressively eviler throughout. Which I’m not here for redemption vs corruption arc discourse, that’s not what this post is (because I prefer a secret third option), and what I want to dig into here is what makes this an incredibly curious statement

Because this is the first time anyone involved with the ST has mentioned there ever being a plan. So, let’s explore that for a second because why is he saying something that’s completely at odds with every other piece of information we have?

(behind a cut for length, as I went and pulled a bunch of interview quotes and other materials and then analyzed them, you can scroll to the very bottom for my conclusions if you like)

So first, I went and found this, which I purchased many many years ago in 2017

In it, an interview with RJ himself confirms what the story has been for a long time: there was no plan, there was no required plot points, no endgame to lead to, just absolute freedom (I recall reading this then and feeling a spark of confusion and concern - what do you mean there was no plan?) 

I also found this, and while I don’t have the TLJ art book to verify it, another person on twitter confirmed it and also advised that RJ was even in the know regarding the Aftermath series (confirmed by him and Chuck Wendig at a convention) - so he knew a lot. And this plus the above shows that if there was a plan, it was abandoned before TFA was even released, likely even before it finished filming

And then we have the rather well known moment when JJ himself pretty much confirmed that the ST should have had a plan (question asked was about sw, even if JJ didn’t say it himself). Could this be shade at abandoning a plan instead of never having one? Maybe. But it’s unclear 

And as our last piece of evidence, we have confirmation from RJ that he asked JJ to change the ending of TFA. Which once again shows TFA was not finished when RJ, who explicitly said he was given no plan to follow, was writing TLJ

And that was the story all along, confirmed multiple times over. We can say for sure that as of the writing for TLJ being started, which was before TFA was even finished, let alone released, there was no plan. So it is certain that if there ever was a plan, that plan was abandoned at the very latest in early 2015, but I suspect 2014 is more likely

So why would AD say there ever was one? He has no reason to lie and I don’t think he is, he has nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. But with so many other pieces of evidence directly contradicting what he’s saying, I think we can also say that RJ is telling the truth too. But how can both be true?

Well, knowing the mess that is d/lf and also how disney treats actors I think it’s one of two possibilities:

Option 1: there was indeed a plan, likely pitched by JJ himself, and that d/lf agreed to that plan with no intention of ever following it through. They sold the actors on the plan, telling them it was a capital P Plan, but then didn’t ever tell them it had stopped being the plan, so that’s also why we saw the actors becoming increasingly frustrated throughout the series. They were told there was a plan, what the plan was, and then watched none of that come to fruition because it had secretly been abandoned long ago without their knowledge. It’s extremely scummy, but I could see disney doing it

Option 2: the plan was never a firm capital P Plan but rather was just the initial concept JJ had. No one ever committed to it, but since the actors couldn’t see the script, JJ’s initial vision was used as a “here’s my concept” kind of thing to sell the actors on without it being a firm plan. Just a concept that was used at the time but later discarded, as I’m sure a good number of concepts were. But it would be easy for that to get misinterpreted by the actors, and this gives us the less scummy option on the mouse’s part because it’s more about miscommunication than anything else

And if it is option 2, it’s also possible that the actors did know it wasn’t an confirmed plan, just a concept, but clung to those concepts since they were all they had. Which I can understand, given that not knowing the eventual story makes their jobs harder. I can totally see AD sticking with that initial concept even if he knew it wasn’t a “plan” per se, because he had literally nothing else to go on and he needed something to play the role. And once again, given how increasingly frustrated the cast got over the course of the trilogy, I suspect this experience would have been shared among the whole cast

Overall, I lean towards option 2 on this, because even though I do think disney is pretty fucking evil, option 1 might actually be a contract violation or at least open up the possibility of one. And plus, the entire story group would have had to be in on it, and if they did straight up knowingly lie to the entire cast and JJ, I just feel like that would be something which that many people can’t keep secret (plus wouldn’t RJ have accidentally spilled the beans when talking to JJ? Or was he in on it too? Too many players imo). I know it’s disney, but still, things leak all the time (as those of us who followed the tfa or tros leaks know lmao). Plus, I do agree with the adage of assuming stupidity over overt malice when in doubt, so I’m going to stick with that here

So ultimately, my suspicion is this was never a true, capital P, confirmed Plan, but rather the initial concept they used in place of a real plan (which they never made) because d/lf had nothing else to use to sell the actors on it and the actors had nothing else to cling to when actually playing the characters, so they used it where they needed gaps filled. And with it being more likely just a vague concept that was never committed to and was abandoned in 2014 than anything else, well, no matter how good or bad it might have been, I don’t even think it’s worth considering as something we ever would have gotten. It clearly wasn’t in the stars (ha) from very early on and thus belongs in the pile with the rest of the surely very numerous concepts that never came to fruition

And this, kids, is why trilogies need to be fucking planned lmfao

[david-talks-sw]

Luke Skywalker in 'The Last Jedi' (1/2)

Luke in The Last Jedi... love it or hate it, it's a difficult subject.

I personally stand somewhere in the middle. I don't think Luke was "ruined"... I'd argue that, from a purely in-universe perspective, his subplot actually tracks with what was previously established in the original films.

There are issues, but I think they are mainly found on an out-of-universe/structural level (which I'll get into in post 2/2). For now, let's take a deep dive and unpack why this portrayal isn't all that problematic.

The most commonly-heard argument is that:

"They ruined Luke's character! He would never go into exile or abandon his sister and friends!"

Simply put, Luke used to be:

an optimist

so brave he'd risk his life to save his friends,

aspired to become a Jedi.

Whereas, in The Last Jedi, he's:

jaded and depressed,

hides/abandons his sister and friends, like a coward,

says the Jedi need to die?!

Now the fact is... Luke is 24 years older when he goes into exile, 30 years older in The Last Jedi. People change, with age.

In Luke's case, he matured from an impatient kid who'd rashly run to save his friends, like in Empire Strikes Back, to a grown-up who makes hard choices and restrains himself from doing that, even though he desperately wants to.

Luke tells himself this is a self-sacrifice, this is for the greater good.

"Because he’s the last Jedi and a symbol of that it then becomes this self-sacrifice, he has take himself out of it, when he knows his friends are dying, when the thing he’d most like to do is get back in the fight." - Rian Johnson, The Empire Film Podcast, 2018

And Rian Johnson didn't want Luke to come across as a coward, so he also gave Luke an argument that initially seems to make sense:

The Jedi way is flawed and inevitably leads to arrogance. Proof: the Sith originally came from Jedi. His own new order is no exception to that rule, even if he thought it was (in his arrogance, he believed his own legend).

So if he leaves and stays in exile? No more Jedi, no more Jedi-turned-darksiders that can mess up the galaxy.

The Force will keep trying to balance itself and a new, worthier source will appear (in the form of Rey).

But while his reasoning that "the Jedi are inevitably arrogant" seems sound and reasonable... it's wrong.

Just like Dooku's reasoning that "the Jedi are corrupt" seems sound, but is ultimately wrong.

Just like Anakin's rationalization that "the Jedi are evil" seems sound nope, that one doesn't even seem sound, it's just plain wrong.

Where is it wrong, in Luke's case?

Well, he's rationalizing his actions by blaming the Jedi religion, instead of admitting his own failure.

"The notion of, 'Nope, toss this all away and find something new,' is not really a valid choice, I think. Ultimately, Luke's exile and his justifications for it are all covering over his guilt over Kylo." - Rian Johnson, The Art of The Last Jedi, 2017

"In his own way, [Luke is] trying to disconnect, he’s trying to throw away the past, he’s saying 'Let’s kill [the Jedi] religion. It’s the thing that’s messing us up, thins thing right here, let’s kill it.’ And the truth is, it’s a personal failure. It’s not religion, it’s his own human nature that’s betrayed him." - Rian Johnson, The Empire Film Podcast, 2018

He fucked up, plain and simple.

But it's not because “he’s a Jedi and that made him arrogant and the Jedi mentality is flawed”, as he claims early on in the movie.

He failed because he's flawed. Luke is human and had a moment of weakness where he was scared shitless and acted on instinct.

Yoda's spirit helps him realize this, and he fixes his mistake by allowing Leia and the resistance to save themselves. And as he does it, he acknowledges the importance of the Jedi and their teachings.

And it's also why, in The Rise of Skywalker, he has the maturity to admit that he wasn't staying on the island out of some self-sacrificial gesture, as he kept telling himself. Truth is, he was afraid. Afraid he'd screw up again.

Do the movies go about this in an emotionally-satisfying way? That's debatable. But, on paper, I don't think Luke's behavior in The Last Jedi is too much of a shark-jump considering how

THE ORIGINAL IDEA CAME FROM GEORGE LUCAS!

In the couple of months after the Disney sale, Lucas developed the Sequels with Michael Arndt in late 2012/early 2013, and concept art was made by artists like Christian Alzmann.

Note: the image on the left got a “Fabouloso” stamp of approval from Lucas!

Lucas’ sequels would feature a Luke Skywalker who was a figure like the jaded, reclusive Colonel Kurtz in the movie Apocalypse Now (which, fun fact, Lucas helped write and was originally set to direct).

The reason why Luke was in self-imposed exile wasn’t specified, all we know is that he was:

hiding from the world in a cave,

haunted by the betrayal of one of his students,

and spiritually in a dark place.

Other concept artists, like James Clyne, tried to illustrate the First Jedi Temple and some of the designs were approved by Lucas, such as the one below.

Eventually, Kira the female Jedi-wannabe protagonist (who eventually became Rey) would seek him out so he can train her.

This Luke would be a much more prominent part of Episode VII (instead of only appearing at the end) but still died at the end of Episode VIII.

For sources and more information about George Lucas’ plans for the Sequel Trilogy, read this post.

The only part that wasn't detailed by Lucas were the specifics of why he went into exile. But all in all, this sounds pretty similar to what we got in The Last Jedi.

"Luke would never try to kill Ben!”

I agree. And he didn’t try to kill Ben. He stopped himself.

And this version of the event?

This didn’t happen.

What Kylo tells Rey is his version of the story. And he thinks he’s telling the truth... but his recollection of the event is warped as this was obviously a very traumatic event for him.

"I don't think he's lying actually. In my mind, that was his experience. [...] I think that it's probably twisted a little bit by Kylo's own anger and his own prejudices against Luke, but I feel like he's actually telling her the truth of his experience." - Rian Johnson, Star Wars: The Last Jedi commentary, 2017

The narrative frames the third version of the story as the one that’s objectively how events went down. Because Rey believes him, and Rey is both the protagonist and a stand-in for the audience.

Now, if you think Luke’s word is unreliable and you have an easier time trusting Kylo’s version of the story, go to town.

But I think that if you actually believe would Luke would never try to kill Ben, you’d take Luke's second retelling of the story at face value.

I know I do.

“Okay, but he would never consider killing a child, like Ben. He saw the good in Darth Vader!”

First off, Luke refers to Ben as "a scared boy" because, he's a middle-aged man. But objectively, Ben was 23 years old.

But also, I mean... with Vader, Luke actually had the luxury ignorance.

Do you think would have truly gone on that Second Death Star if he had actually witnessed Vader:

choke his Padmé,

kill Obi-Wan,

actively try to kill Ahsoka,

murder Jedi younglings,

betray and hunt down his other Jedi brothers and sisters,

and cold-bloodedly kill countless innocents, one by one?

There’s a difference between watching him kill Ben Kenobi (who still ‘lived’ as a ghost and talked to him seconds later) and hearing a couple of rebel pilots get blasted in the trench run, and actually seeing all the horrors he’s committed.

Don't get me wrong, Luke knows Vader is evil, absolutely. But if he had seen this side of Vader, the needlessly cruel side...

... I'm not sure he'd have been as compassionate.

Proof: Obi-Wan, someone who deeply loved Anakin (to the point where he could never bring himself to kill him), someone that genuinely wishes that Luke can redeem him... also feels that, realistically, attempting to do so would be pointless.

And hell, even without really seeing all the massacres Vader committed, the second the latter threatened his sister, Luke went berserk and almost killed him!

So the question becomes:

“What could make Luke - trained Jedi Master, long-time optimist and overall compassionate to a fault - consider killing Ben?”

All we’re told is that he looked into Ben’s mind and saw darkness and the destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything he loves.

The specifics are left to our imagination. They could include:

the sight of Kylo slaughtering his parents and Chewie with a smile on his blood-smeared face,

the smell of Han's burning flesh in the air,

the wails of Chewbacca as he's run through by Kylo,

the faint sound of Leia's tears hitting the ground,

the destruction of the New Republic's citizens and planets.

Whatever it may have been, it was intense. Because Force-induced visions are vivid as hell, as has been shown throughout the franchise.

It's not like watching something on a TV, you're there, all your senses are affected in an extremely powerful way.

And the vision Luke experienced scared him so much that even shortly after it, when looking at a sleeping young man, all he sees is that evil monster from the vision. So he tremblingly draws his saber.

But it's evident that Luke wasn't thinking clearly or rationally.

His base emotions had taken the wheel, he was being tempted by the Dark Side.

"He doesn’t give in to the Dark Side, it’s a moment of temptation to the Dark Side. It reminds me very much of when Vader is tempting Luke, when Luke is underneath the stairs in [Return of the] Jedi, lit with that very beautiful half-and-half, the duality of these two sides of him being pulled. And that’s really what that moment is for me, it’s a moment of temptation to the Dark Side for Luke." - Rian Johnson, IGN, 2017

And yet despite seeing all that... Luke catches himself.

It's not the first time that Luke almost does something horrible to a family member and catches himself. Again, 24 years prior, he almost murdered his own father in a fit of rage.

The scene in Ben's hut intentionally parallels that outburst he has in Return of the Jedi.

A terrible future is presented before Luke.

He reacts instinctively, is tempted by the Dark Side.

He snaps out of it.

Even the angle and framing of the shot is designed to match:

"Some of these parallels are just “it’s a close-up of the same character” but this one was very intentional. It’s why I had him look down at his mechanical hand holding the saber." - Rian Johnson, Twitter, 2019

The only real difference is that, in Return of the Jedi, Luke only comes to his senses after a frenzied onslaught during which he actively tried to kill his own Dad.

24 years later, despite having witnessed that terrible future even more vividly than he did on the Second Death Star, he catches himself merely seconds later. Instead of going on a whole rampage, he stops the moment the lightsaber turns on.

I'd call that "progress".

"But Luke should've learned his lesson and known better than to give in to the Dark Side!"

Resisting the temptation of the Dark Side is by no means a one-and-done thing. It's not a power-up that you get, it's a constant struggle.

"I think it disrespects the character of Luke by treating him not as a true mythic hero overcoming recurring wounds & flaws, but as a video game character who has achieved a binary, permanent power-up." - Rian Johnson, Twitter, 2019

Dave Filoni says so too.

"In the end, it’s about fundamentally becoming selfless, moreso than selfish. It seems so simple, but it’s so hard to do. And when you’re tempted by the dark side, you don’t overcome it once in life and then you’re good. It’s a constant." - Dave Filoni, Rebels Remembered, 2019

Hell, even George Lucas stated something along those lines:

"The Sith practice the dark side and are way out of balance. The Jedi aren’t as much out of balance because they’re the light side of the Force. They still have the bad side of the Force in them, but they keep it in check. It’s always there, so it can always erupt if you let your guard down." - George Lucas, The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005, 2020

Learning the lesson once doesn't mean you've learned it forever. Especially with the Dark Side, which poses a never-ending battle.

In-universe examples: Anakin learned to let go of his attachments during the “Padawan Lost” arc of TCW.

A year and a half later, he’s butchering kids because he can’t let go of his attachments.

And during wartime, Yoda found himself repressing his darker instincts and ignoring their existence. Thus, when he had to face them, he struggled to acknowledge and control them.

So considering Luke didn't go "rampage mode" with Ben, as he did when he tried to kill Vader, I think he deserves some credit.

Finally, I've heard this insane argument many times, as a response to the above points:

"Yeah but Luke wasn't actually trying to kill Vader! He was holding back, he was trying to keep him alive!"

And, uh... no. He wasn't.

He lost his shit, folks. And almost killed Vader.

Like, right here?

⬆️ If Vader hadn’t moved his saber to intercept Luke’s blade, Luke would’ve stabbed Vader in the face.

⬆️ If Vader hadn’t held his sword up in time, SWISH, there goes the top of his helmet AT LEAST, if not the rest of his head.

⬆️ If Vader hadn’t dodged he’d be chopped in two.

⬆️ If Vader’s arm gave out slightly sooner, if his blade faltered just a little lower, if he loosened his grip on his saber a bit, Vader would be cleaved in two.

My point is that if you swing at someone with a lightsaber? They’ll get chopped. And if you aim for the head or the chest? You’re trying to kill them.

Before Luke got a grip, throughout that whole rampage, the only thing that kept Vader alive was his own skill.

Otherwise, Luke would’ve murdered him in a fit of rage.

If Luke was holding back, then the theme of "resisting the Dark Side" completely falls apart.

There's no indication that he was restraining himself, in he script.

And just look at the imagery.

Luke is surrounded by darkness, symbolizing how he's being seduced by the Dark Side, he's being tempted to give in to his anger towards the man who hurt his friends and took his hand.

Then Vader threatens Leia.

And the next time we see Luke, he's silhouetted, his face is all black.

Luke was originally trying to hold back and talk Vader down, but fails to control his instincts and gives in to fear, to anger, to the Dark Side... and goes all out.

He swings at his father furiously and keeps swinging, until he cuts off Vader's hand... and he is about to deliver the final blow…

… when he sees Vader’s mechanical hand and realizes that by giving in to his anger, that path will inevitably lead him to become exactly like this half-machine half-man laying at his feet. That’s where the path to power leads.

And so he makes a decision:

He’s a Jedi. Like his father before him. His compassion for Anakin is stronger than his hate for Vader.

That's the narrative intent.

It has to be.

Because if he had been "holding back" throughout that entire bit, then the stakes are lowered immeasurably, John Williams' saddening score is misplaced, the lightsaber choreography is misleading, etc.

For the above-listed reasons, I think Luke's portrayal in The Last Jedi doesn't really contradict anything in the previously-established lore. It works, it's the typical "old cowboy needs to get back in the saddle" trope. Frankly, I can defend this subject all day long... so where's the problem?

The problem comes in at an out-of-universe level. While it's not inconsistent... it's also not satisfying.

The thing is, if you...

... take one of the most brave and optimistic characters in the franchise, then open the film saying "well, now he's jaded and in hiding", without giving us context on how he became that way...

... take a character whose arc was specifically about controlling his emotions, then show him be ruled by those emotions without providing context for what made him do that...

... then that kills the suspension of disbelief, for a lot of fans.

And, as such, they'll have a much harder time going along with what you're saying.

Because "show, don't tell" is one of the most basic principles in visual storytelling. And we weren't shown:

"Ben being increasingly violent during training",

"Luke sitting Ben down and having a talk with him, only to be ignored" or

"the horrors Luke saw in Ben's head".

I have no doubt that those things happened, in-universe.

But if we're talking about a movie-going experience, many were left emotionally-unsatisfied.

Because all that stuff was in there... but only subtextually. It was up to the fans to imagine on the details. Normally, I'd argue that's what Star Wars is all about: allowing fans to dream and think outside the box. But in this specific case, I think many fans would've rather had a more complete and explicit story. Because it's Luke Skywalker.

And yet... even these structural and writing issues had a logic behind them, and if you ask me... there was no other direction that this story could be taken in.

We'll explore this in more detail in part 2/2.

[curlytheintrovert]

Why I Love Reylo (Pt.2)

(My old post for reasons unknown got deleted😭)

One of my other favorite parts of this couple is that they are atypically gender reversed. It’s one of the many reasons this ship is so intriguing and unique compared to others. Let me explain. Typically in most hetero romances the man is the abrasive, closed off one at first and is generally a prickly little shit. While the girl is typically softer, a little more compassionate and open minded. This not the case with Rey and Kylo.

Rey’s first interaction with Kylo is shooting a blaster at him multiple times in succession. Granted she does have a Force vision of Kylo at Maz’s which makes her justifiably hostile and afraid of him. During the interrogation scene Kylo reads her mind and speaks her thoughts out loud: she wants to kill him. Rey calls him a creature in a mask and angrily tells him to get out of her head. And then proceeds to spit Kylo’s greatest fear back in his face with such venom. I love how she snarls: “You. You’re afraid.”

Kylo on the other hand only defends himself from her blasts and force stops her from shooting any further. He gently says: “The girl I’ve heard so much about.” Kylo easily could have dragged her away or thrown her into the hands of the troopers beside him—but instead he makes Rey sleep and scoops her up into his arms bridal style. In the interrogation room Kylo sees Rey’s fear and says she’s his guest. He takes off his mask. Then explains things calmly—never raising his voice above a murmur. The curiosity about her is strong as Kylo probes her mind and the responses to what he finds there are emotional. I love so much how he says “Don’t be afraid, I feel it too.” It just feels so incredibly kind considering the circumstances—like that was the first little glimpse of Ben we got.

The shift that happens when Rey uses the force back on Kylo is what really sets the tone for the rest of their relationship. Rey attacks and responds negatively—Kylo gently deflects and tries to connect. If you watch throughout the rest of the films this dynamic doesn’t really change. Almost all of their force bonds in TLJ are similar: Rey being barbarous and Kylo being benign. A majority of their saber fights are like this too—Kylo plays defense, is hesitant to pull out his saber multiple times or looks like he’s doesn’t want to fight her period.

See what I mean?! Rey is hostile and prickly—Kylo is open minded and gentle.

The other gender swapped aspect is that in a way Kylo is the damsel of this pairing. He’s trapped far away, lonely and miserable, in a figurative tower. Rey fights Luke for his cause and goes to rescue and save him if she can. But I also see Kylo as an emotional damsel too. He’s so lost, and hurt and twisted. Rey offers him a way back—she’s the only one who can—and in the long run is the very reason he is able to become Ben Solo again. But it’s when Rey lets her guard down and mellows her prejudice that their relationship flourishes. Kylo/Ben is already ready and waiting to love and be loved…

Man, this pairing is complex and fun to analyze!

[kylosbreedingkink]

I'm collecting religious references in relation to Kylo, but also Snoke and the two of them together.

There's a few of them in the sequel trilogy - I think I posted one of them here before, where Kylo is praying to Vader.

But if anyone remembers any that stuck out to them, please let me know somehow, want to collect as many as I can

[artist-issues]

are there any controversial pieces of media that you like? why is it controversial? why do you like it? do you defend it against people who don't like it, and if you do, how?

Do I

Oh boy

This answer is going to dive in to how I've worked out "The Right Way to Make Sequels." So it'll be another long one.

I really, truly like Star Wars: The Last Jedi. And without that movie, I would not like The Force Awakens as much as I also like it.

TLJ is one of the most hotly contested Star Wars movies of all time, which is saying something, because the Star Wars audience loves to hotly contest everything.

I think Star Wars: The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars film since the original trilogy. I would rather rewatch it than any of the original movies, or the prequel movies, or any other Star Wars media.

Because it's just good. It's just a really good movie—and it is also a really good Star Wars movie, because it nails the whole theme of Star Wars, which is "Faith Triumphs Over Fear."

But. Not everybody measures the phrase "really good movie" or the the phrase "good Star Wars movie" by the same metrics I do.

You know that I believe a story is good when it reminds you of the Good, the Beautiful, the True, or all of them at once—by nailing the "main point" or "theme," instead of being entertaining alone. Add to that the fact that I believe a Star Wars movie (or any franchise movie, or story-sequel) is good when it believably emphasizes the overall main-point of its predecessors, without losing the ability to be compelling.

To be "believable," it has to make sure that the characters (if they're returning from their predecessor appearances) make in-character choices. It does not mean that those returning-characters have to make choices that the audience approves of. Nobody likes the fact that the two characters in La La Land choose not to stay together forever. But there comes a point when it doesn't matter what the audience likes, it matters what the characters "would do."

Anyway.

Another way to have the sequel be "believable" is to make sure that what filmmakers call the "style & tone" stay somewhat familiar, echoing their predecessors. There's a lot of wiggle room for this. Some deviation from what the predecessors did in terms of style or even is good and right. But you want to keep the core stuff—because "style & tone" are just another tool used to "nail the main point" that the predecessors used, so you don't want to change it too much.

What I mean is, in The Last Jedi, you have things like:

Epic-scale visuals (dramatic shots that make use of big objects and light and shadow in the composition)

Dramatic Use of Color (Red is bad, blue is good, black is bad, white is good—very in-your-face symbolism)

Quirky Alien Cutaways (even though it's a dramatic adventure, you still sometimes cutaway to see a funky alien or a funny little creature, to remind you this is a fun space-romp.)

Somewhat-Obvious Adventurous One-Liner Dialogue (No explanation needed)

INTENSE emphasis on orchestral score (I don't have to explain this, Star Wars is one of the greatest examples of all time for music in movies)

All of the above contributes to the "tone and style" of a Star Wars movie. The Original movies have that. Most of the Prequel Trilogy has it, too. The Last Jedi does it right. You're supposed to feel heights of "operatic" drama, but it's not working very hard to be subtle or "clever." It's just common-sense, easily-accessible storytelling, from the lighting to the colors to the dialogue. Everyone of all ages can watch and enjoy.

(It doesn't mean a Star Wars movie is not profound—it means that it lets simple-truths shine, because truths that are plain and simple are profound, and only arrogant "intellectuals" can't accept that and clamor for something more "complex" just for the pleasure of hearing the gears in their own heads click. Anyway.)

So The Last Jedi gets that right. You know what doesn't?

Andor. The Star Wars show on Disney+. Andor does not get the Star Wars Style & Tone right. It tries too hard to be complex. It is all about grey areas and blurring the line between right and wrong, good and evil. It tries really hard to be "sophisticated" and "for mature fans." And its style and tone reflect that. It doesn't feel like Star Wars.

So you see how I can show the different examples of what gets this right and what gets this wrong, even in other areas of Star Wars—I'm not just biased and using the movie I like as a template. I enjoyed Andor. But Andor is not a good Star Wars story; not if I apply the metric fairly.

So that's "believable." You have to make the audience believe that they are re-entering the world, and seeing the characters, or the story itself, continue. Otherwise you lose them. Because you got them in the first place with a promise: "you're going to see a continuation."

Let's move on to "compelling."

To be "compelling," you have to tell a good story. That's it. That's all.

It is good and right to re-enter a franchise's "world" and shine a light on the same main-point as the original stories—from a new set of characters' perspective. It is good and right to not re-tell and reboot the same old characters and recount their lives, over and over. It is good and right to make a new story that continues the theme of the old story.

And as long as you're doing that, you don't need to follow any other supposed "rules" that the "fandom" made up.

The Last Jedi does that perfectly. It takes the characters that were introduced in "The Force Awakens," takes into account where each of them began and where we last left them, and then believably and compellingly moves forward.

That's all it was supposed to do. And it did it, super super well. In a way most Star Wars media does not.

Like for example, I said Andor is a bad continuation of the Star Wars franchise because it gets the Style and Tone wrong, right? So it's not "believable" as a Star Wars story?

Well, the other side of the coin is also true. Ahsoka, another Disney+ Star Wars story, is on the other end of the spectrum. It might nail (in lots of ways) the "Style and Tone" of a Star Wars story, to make it believable. But it's not compelling. Because it gets the other thing wrong: it's a bad story.

The Last Jedi gets both "believability" and "compelling storytelling" totally right.

But the fans didn't want a good story. They didn't want a continuation of the Star Wars theme, because they probably never really thought about what that theme really was.

No. The fans wanted what I call 💫 A Checklist of Star Wars Stuff Disguised As a Story 💫 . They wanted to hear more name-drops of characters from Deep Cuts in the previous movies. They wanted the New Characters to have familial ties to their favorite Old Characters. They wanted the movies to be about the Old Characters—so they really wanted Luke Skywalker to come out swinging as an undetectable Jedi Messiah with no character flaws who makes the New Characters look like fools because the fans hate the New Characters. They also wanted more Old Characters to come back, and they would only have liked the New Characters if those characters, in and of themselves, were...bad characters, because Star Wars fans, by and large, really often forget what made their precious Old Characters well-written characters in the first place. And that was: human flaws.

Luke is always focused on how he can control his future, especially when it comes to fulfilling his destiny or saving his friends. That's a flaw. That's pride. But Star Wars fans forgot that that's Luke's "fatal flaw." They just remember the nostalgia of green lightsaber backflips and retconned Legends books.

So then when Rey comes along and is focused on her past, and has her own pride issues, the fans go "ew, she's so annoying, let's nitpick about whether or not she could win a fight in real life."

Because Star Wars fans went into The Last Jedi believing that "A Good Star Wars Story has Luke Skywalker Being a Total Beast, a Realized Messiah who Dominates New Characters," or "A Good Star Wars Story Has Ultra-Powerful Villains Who Fit the Previously-Done-to-Death Mold, Like a Video Game Boss..." then they found the movie unbelievable. They don't believe it because they had silly expectations going in.

The one thing they can't deny was that it was compelling. Every showing I went to, even way past the premier, you could cut the tension in the theater with a knife when you were supposed to, you could feel the air move as everybody gasped when they were supposed to, you could hear laughter at all the right moments and empathy with the characters at all the right moments. But then a few months after the release, and online, everybody's claiming to have hated it. I know that's not true. I experienced it.

But Mark Hamill, the guy who played Luke Skywalker, ran his mouth about how he didn't understand Luke's character direction. He very cleverly, in interviews, set himself up as the Actor who Understands His Character being ignored and misunderstood by a Plebian Director...and as a "consequence," they "got Luke all wrong." So then of course the nostalgic fan base, who already had silly expectations, feels those silly expectations justified by the actor from their childhood. Who is wrong about his own character, I don't care, that's happened before, actors are wrong about their own characters, get over it.

Anyway. My point is, The Last Jedi is controversial because it's a good story, and not a Star Wars Checklist Disguised as a Story. And people have a skewed idea of what stories are for, so no wonder they have a skewed understanding of what made Star Wars good—and if you don't know what makes it good, you won't be satisfied when the real thing comes back around in the form of a good sequel. Because you thought "good" meant "name drops, intellectual tickling, and a regurgitation of Focus on Old Characters to entertain me."

You could apply this whole measurement-system for sequels to where the MCU did everything right for so long, and how it's doing it all wrong here recently. Anyway.

I have a lot of posts expanding on this. One or two argument-reblog-matches with fans who hated the movie, too. They're not very popular, because people have been majorly gaslit by the loudest Star Wars fans concerning the Sequel Trilogy.

Thanks for reading!

[allgirlsareprincesses]

Do you think that Rey's story (excluding episode 9 'cause that was a shitshow) could be interpreted as a Cinderella/Ash girl story?

I hope you realize asking me this is like throwing chum to a shark 😈. But the short answer is yes, to a point.

The long answer is more complicated, so to begin with, let's consult the Cinderella bible:

According to the Aarne Thompson Uther Index, there are five primary motifs to a Cinderella tale:

Persecuted heroine, usually by family

Help or helper, usually magic

Meeting the prince, usually with true identity disguised

Identification or penetration of disguise, usually by means of an object

Marriage to the prince

Rey is abandoned by her family, which is a form of persecution, and harassed by the inhabitants of Jakku like Unkar Plutt. Thus she clearly fulfills the first item.

As for meeting a helper, there are several for her, including Han Solo, Maz, Luke, and Leia. Any or all of these may be considered fairy godparents in the way that they offer her wisdom and material help. Further, except for Maz, they all die in the course of the story, which is consistent with many Cinderella tales in which the helper dies and their bones continue to offer wisdom and comfort to the heroine.

Next, meeting the prince. I mean

To the extent that Rey is "in disguise' here, it would be the extent of her force powers, her destiny as Ben Solo's dyad mate, and her role as the heir apparent to the Jedi (chosen by the Force to wield the legacy saber), all of which are obscured from Kylo Ren when he discovers her in the forest. Further, she is grimy and covered in desert sand, similar to how Cinderella is smeared with ashes that hide her true beauty.

So now an object penetrates the disguise. This is obviously the Skywalker lightsaber, which reveals Rey to be everything listed above, especially when she calls it to her on Starkiller Base, and again when she wields it on Ahch-to.

And lastly, marriage to the prince. As many others have pointed out over the years, Rey and Ben have almost too many symbolic marriages to count in the course of the sequel trilogy. They're extremely married, the Force said so.

BUT WAIT! Go back and look at that list again. Who ELSE fits all those criteria?

It's our boy! Consider:

He is indeed persecuted by family, most notably when Luke momentarily considers killing him.

Ben's helpers are both dark and light, as Snoke/Palpatine guide him in the dark while Luke guides him in the light (poorly). But note again what I said above about the bones of the mentor continuing to offer guidance and comfort after their death. Who should appear at Ben's lowest hour but his departed father, Han Solo? With a message of love, acceptance, and encouragement, Han's memory (because in fairy tales, bones contain memory) encourages Ben to at last cast off his beastly skin and become who he always was.

Next, meeting the prince/ss in disguise. He's wearing a literal mask when he meets Rey, so yeah.

An object penetrates the disguise? Rey slashed his face with the legacy saber, thus symbolically peeling away his mask. And I've argued before that the stabbing in TROS (which I still HATE, btw) is another cutting or burning away of the beastly skin.

And lastly, marriage to the prince/ss. As previously stated, that happened. Many times.

So yes, the Sequel Trilogy can definitely be considered a Cinderella story, with but one glaring issue: Cinderella's husband usually doesn't die at the end. But that's another topic that's been done to death, so let's all just read some more fanfic and forget about it. 👑 Thank you for the ask, this was fun!

[need-more-meta]

Chapters: 18/18 Fandom: Star Wars Sequel Trilogy Rating: Explicit Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Rape/Non-Con Relationships: Armitage Hux/Kylo Ren, Armitage Hux/Ben Solo | Kylo Ren Characters: Armitage Hux, Kylo Ren Additional Tags: Explicit Sexual Content, Sexual Abuse, Torture, Gang Rape, Oral Sex, Anal Sex, Spitroasting, Double Penetration, Sexual Slavery, Spit As Lube, Mind Rape, Suicidal thoughts (brief), Inappropriate use of the Force (Star Wars), That's Not How The Force Works (Star Wars), NO RAPE BETWEEN KYLO AND HUX, Rape Recovery, Armitage Hux Needs A Hug, Kylo Ren is Not Nice, Unhealthy Relationships, But They’re Trying to Do Better, POV Alternating, Exile Kylux, Post-Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, Hurt/Comfort, like a lot of hurt, and failed attempts at comfort, but there will be real comfort I swear

Summary:

After Pryde discovers the identity of the spy, he decides that killing Hux would be too simple. Instead, Pryde sells Hux to human traffickers and enjoys the thought of what will be done to him.

In the midst of horrific abuse inflicted on Hux’s body and mind, he stops thinking about rescue.

But rescue comes—in the form of his worst enemy and his greatest love.

Will Hux find a way back to himself after everything he’s been through? Will Kylo find a way forward to be the person Hux needs him to be? It’s possible—but it won’t be easy.

No, it won’t be easy at all.

[minamorsart]

Happy holidays to you 🎄🎁🌟❤️

*whispers* , who do you think deserves better

Lotor or Ben Solo/Kylo Ren

First of all: thank you so much! Happy Holidays to you, too!! I hope you are enjoying this holiday season with your loved ones 🎄🎀☃️💖

And second of all: NOOOO Anon how could you make me choose??! 😭😂😂

My gut reaction is to say both of them, but that's not really the answer we're looking for here, is it? Hehe. So I have tried to seriously consider this and provide a sincere answer to your question.

A quick heads up, I will be mentioning reylo and lotura here and there throughout this little essay!

The most fun part about comparing Ben and Lotor I think comes from the fact that these two are suuuuper similar to one another. I covered this a tiny bit in this ask where I talk about how protective the two of them are, but to reiterate:

Both Lotor and Ben are from sci-fi/fantasy franchises that were released around the same time, both have troubled relationships with their fathers, both are great swordsmen and pilots and engineers, both murdered their fathers, have complicated childhoods, rarely show their true faces to others, killed their dads, fell in love with fierce and powerful women, kissed said fierce and powerful women before shortly dying afterwards, said bye-bye to papa by doin a lil stabby stab, became intergalatic leaders of the most powerful empires in the universe -- oh, and did I mention daddy issues? You tend to find that a lot with long-haired emo boys from fiction. It's just the way it is. And for these two in particular you can also sprinkle in a little "mommy issues" just for funsies.

But in all seriousness, Lotor and Ben share a LOT in common, which is pretty crazy! So who deserves better, really? In order to make a fair judgment my first thought was to take into account their crimes and if they were able to redeem themselves in the end. But this is also fiction. As soon as people slap the label "toxic" on a character or ship, I usually tend to tune them out. This is by no means a hot take, but fiction is a form of escapism. It is a way for people to experience a thing (e.g. horror, adventure, romance) without actually having to experience it. So if we have a couple of sad boys who murder and manipulate people but also want to find love, who's gonna stop us from rooting for them? Absolutely no one!

I digress, but my point is that I usually don't care which character did what and why they're a bad person for it. But even then were Ben and Lotor really all that bad? After all, we learned from "The Rise of Kylo Ren" comics that Ben was ultimately not the one responsible for destroying Luke's Jedi school, and in TROS we found out that he was being manipulated by Palpatine the entire time.

For Lotor, we never really got a clear picture of what exactly he was doing with that Altean colony. To this day I still don't get it! In S6E6 he says, "Many Alteans perished in my quest to unlock the mysteries of quintessence." But then in S8E13 Allura says, "Lotor may have been misguided, but ultimately he wanted to preserve life." Like, what does any of that mean?? There are cracks in the armor, Anon! Cracks!!! Not to mention all of the theories with very convincing evidence that there were a ton of changes made to season 8, and unfortunately I don't think we're ever going to get a solid answer from the showrunners as to what was really supposed to happen.

In the end, the complicated and morally gray choices that Lotor and Ben made throughout their lives are what make their characters so interesting! They did the wrong things for what they believed to be the right reasons. If they didn't come across as the mysterious and devious fellas as they did when we first saw them, we wouldn't be such big fans of them. We would've chosen someone else 😉

So any bad deeds aside, maybe we oughta take a step back and do one last comparison. Most notably, comparing how they died. Ben died saving the person he loved, while Lotor died fighting the person he loved. I would have to argue that Lotor's death was far more gruesome and superfluous than Ben's. Not only did he go mad from all of the raw quintessence coursing through his body, but we find out in season 8 that his body had remained in his ship for three whole years, decayed and melted (seriously whose idea was it to share that imagery? I'm scarred for life) and left to sit there by his own mother.

Ben's passing was also deeply upsetting. I cried in the theater. But you can't deny that it was a peaceful one. From the way his body faded into nothingness, leaving beind only his clothes, the audience is able to assume that he became a Force Ghost (or did he? 🤔). He was battered and beaten, but he brought the woman he loved back to life, and in giving his life to her and helping her defeat Palpatine, he redeemed himself. And not only did he redeem himself, but he was also able to reconcile with both of his parents.

Lotor didn't get to do either of those things. He never got the chance. He was manipulated by both of his parents, and he never had the opportunity to redeem himself on his own terms. You know, for someone who directly influenced the entirety of season 8's plot, Lotor is hardly in it! I suppose he sort of redeemed himself, at least in Allura's eyes, but he was long gone by then. He wasn't around to see any of the stuff going on in season 8, stuff happening specifically FOR him because his mother wanted him back. In season 6 he went out like your average cartoon villain--dying because of his own hubris while the heroes looked on. In season 8 we only get: a flashback episode, him showing up in Allura's bedroom ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°), and him copied and pasted into the background as a ghost in the finale, almost like something is amiss in this scene (cracks in the armor, Anon!!!). UGH. You hate to see it.

But at the same time, I'm not too upset that Lotor died if I'm being completely honest with you. At least not anymore, anyway. Don't get me wrong, at the time I cried when his death was confirmed, and then I cried again when Allura died. But at least they get to be together in the afterlife. Ben had a lot going for him. He was only 30 years old when he died, and that's still very young. He could have had a long, happy life with Rey, and to truly redeem himself in the eyes of the resistance, could have devoted his time to restoring peace and order to the galaxy, as well as teach the new generation of Force-wielders alongside Rey.

Lotor, on the other hand, was 10,000 years old. The idea of having lived that long is not only unfathomable, but the fact that he probably spent most of that time being completely alone is just... really, really sad. If I were him I would have been ready to kick the bucket, too. I think the kindest thing to do for him at that point was to give him a peaceful, as well as justified, departure in the series finale. Allura had suffered as well. She had lost everything, just like him, so the two of them finding peace in the afterlife would be the most merciful conclusion, I believe.

Soooo I'm gonna cheat again with my answer 😂 Who deserves better? I would say BOTH of them deserve better, but in different ways. Ben Solo deserved to live, while Lotor deserved a better death.

Thank you so much for this question, Anon! I really had to think a lot about this one, and even though in the end I couldn't actually choose between the two, I still enjoyed coming up with this long-winded answer haha! If you have any further insights you would like to add, or if you even disagree with any of the things I've said, please don't hesitate to say so! I am always happy to discuss anything Ben or Lotor-related 😁 My love for these boys knows no bounds 💖