#it's really dependent on the situation | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

the-final-sif · 9 months ago

Note

what is your opinion on the situation?

I've been at work all day so I haven't been able to sit down with stuff fully, it also seems like Caiti is planning to release a statement later today with more information I think? So I'd like to get her response there, but based on what I've seen so far I think I fall more on the side of "people made some dumb choices and should learn from them" than anything else.

Consent is messy and it gets messier when people start lying or are drunk. In this case, both Caiti and George were drunk. From what I understand, either Caiti had a 21+ wristband from the vidcon party, or her friend group did and assumed since she was drinking with them, she was also 21+.

Honestly, when it comes to the matter of underage drinking, I don't think it's even remotely fair to place blame on Dream/George for that. The blame there lies with Caiti deciding to drink while under 21, and on her friends, Ghostie and the other person present who were both over 21. Unlike Dream/George, both of them knew Caiti and knew exactly how old she was and were letting her drink. They were also letting her drink with no one sober and no one making sure she got home.

Now, Caiti is 18 and also I'm not a goddamn square, I'm not gonna stand here and be like "oh no drinking at 18 clutch my pearls" but like, if people are going to blame other people for that situation, that very much lies with Caiti's friends who knew they had an underage person drinking with them. I feel like people are weirdly assigning blame to Dream/George for not like, iding every person they hang out with (particularly if she had a 21+ bracelet at vidcon, which would mean she already got IDed). While completely avoiding placing any blame on the people who 100% knew they were taking an 18 year old drinking without a doubt.

Putting that aside, from my understanding George's side is he believed at the time that she was having fun, and the most they did was cuddle on a couch with other people there. He believed at the time that everything was cool, and that she later decided she was uncomfortable with what happened.

Honestly, I don't really think that's an unfair reading. At this same party, her best friend was there and from Ghostie's own words, she also didn't realize Caiti was uncomfortable until several months later when Caiti told her. If her best friend didn't notice she was uncomfortable or see anything wrong, then I find it hard to think anyone else would pick up on it.

There's certainly risks taken here that I wouldn't have taken. I think that George needs to do better with checking for consent and maybe vetting the people you're hanging out with. Although I also understand that doing a full background check on everyone you ever meet is an absurd requirement and if, at the time, they trusted the person that they actually invited, I get how that shit happens. Per consent, given that he was also drunk, I get how it may've appeared to him that he had consent. I do think it's still something to work on, but I'm also perfectly aware that in real life, people are often going off vibes and social cues, and sometimes those don't mash.

I also think that Caiti's friends have been pretty shitty throughout this. They take no responsibility for having let an 18 year old drink and then ditching her. They are absolutely milking drama out of this shit and they have a weird obsession with blaming Dream for shit he had no fault in.

As for Dream, I don't think he did anything wrong here. Full stop. If Caiti's best friend didn't notice that she was uncomfortable or unhappy, it's insanely unreasonable to expect Dream to have managed that. He was also drunk and hanging out with people, and he had no way of knowing Caiti was underage. None of that shit was his fault, and his statement seems very measured and reasonable. People are trying to blame him for things that he had absolutely no part in, and the UK group are absolutely trying to pull that shit.

Overall, sounds like several people involved made dumb choices, I hope they learn and grow. Otherwise all of this honestly sounds like shit that should've been talked out privately and not tossed to the internet for speculation. Human beings are messy and will fuck up sometimes. This feels like a case of miscommunication and people making risky choices that left people with some hurt.

Again, I may change my mind with further evidence presented, but that's how it feels to me.

#dreamwastaken #georgenotfound #discourse #sif speaks #sif answers #idk man I think I just have more irl experience with these sorts of situations #like #shit happens in real life #and I think maybe part of the problem with like twitter #is you have a lot of 15 year olds that have never been drunk or fucked in their lives #who are totally sure they know exactly how consent works and how sex goes in real life #I really liked the greendot talk I got about it back in college #I should find a recording of that sometime for people #It laid it out really well that consent is not an on-off switch #It's a door that you're opening #and depending on the circumstances you take risks with how you're opening it #0 risk is like the two of you have a formal plan #and have signed contracts #and then you start to move up through situations that can be more risky that something goes wrong #and someone gets hurt #And honestly for irl consent I found that was so much more of a valuable framework to look at things through

219 notes · View notes

neversetyoufree · 8 months ago

Text

Obviously I'm very glad that Domi has stepped in to help protect Dante and Johann, and it's great that she's calling Dante by his name. However, I'm vaguely concerned that a member of the de Sade family directly confronting chasseurs (and particularly hateful chasseurs!) could lead to very bad things down the line.

Back at the start of the catacombs arc, Johann pointed out that relations between the church and the vampire establishment are still extremely tense, so it would be prohibitively dangerous for Orlock and his people to get involved in a conflict with them. If you take Johann at his word, it could take as little as one false step to set off the beginnings of another war. And the situation has only gotten worse since the catacombs.

Dominique isn't as politically important as Count Orlock, but she's still a member of a key family of aristocrats. If Gano and Ogier escalate the current situation to violence and Domi has to fight them, there's a chance things could spiral out of control in a big way.

There's also a chance Domi, Dante, and Johann will still be able to calm things down without a fight, of course, but if it does come to blows, I'm afraid an excuse to hurt or be hurt by a vampire aristocrat is the perfect opportunity for Gano. We know the extremists want an opportunity to go to war again, after all. I don't know if Gano shares that desire, since he's working with Ruthven on the side, but he's hateful enough that I sure wouldn't rule it out.

#not that I think war's going to erupt on the streets if this escalates #we've still got to deal with the miel plot. among other things #but depending on how things go. this could push the situation in a really bad direction in the long term #or maybe not!#but in any case. this is the most interested I've been in the bigger political forces lurking in the background in vnc #suddenly it all feels very important and immediate #vnc #vanitas no carte #the case study of vanitas #theory #vnc spoilers #vnc 63

106 notes · View notes

withthewindinherfootsteps · 6 months ago

Text

So we know that Wei Wuxian's treatment after his death was horrible. Even if nothing could impact him directly, there was still neverending slander, hatred, misinformation, theft...

But, for a while after he died, the sects did try to impact him directly – namely, frequently trying to resummon his soul. And today I'll explore the possible reasons for this, their likelihoods, and why I'm so, so thankful that Wei Wuxian's soul managed to resist the summons. Because, spoiler alert (or, you know. maybe not)... none of them are good.

(Long meta ahead)

In my opinion, there are four likely motivations for this: confinement, coercion, torment, and potentially destruction.

Out of all of these, confinement is probably the most likely motivation, at least for most sects (Jins and Jiangs excluded, though it was likely what the Jin sect said their motivations were – but I'll get to them later). This one is the most simple – we know spirit-trapping pouches exist, and we know the sects also placed 120 stone beasts on the Burial Mounds to prevent Wei Wuxian's soul from escaping. Therefore, this seems to be the most likely motivation – and fortunately for Wei Wuxian, probably also the best case scenario, though it still certainly isn't a good one.

For the second, coercion – this is where the Jin sect come in (more specifically Jin Guangshan with the help of Jin Guangyao). Due to their wealth and resources, they're likely the sect who played the largest role in the soul-summoning rituals. We know what they're willing to do to try to gain power – keeping Wen Ning under the pretence he was burned to death and trying to control him with the nails, and working with and helping Xue Yang torture people to help him refine his demonic cultivation, in order to have the Yin hufu fixed. Along with working with many other cultivators, alongside Xue Yang – Jin Guangshan really, really wanted that seal.

And so, Jin GuangShan sought after all those who imitated Wei WuXian in cultivating the ghostly path and gathered them under his rule. He spent a great amount of money and resources and these people, ordering them to study and analyze the structure of the Tiger Seal in secrecy so that they could replicate and restore it. - Villainous Friends extra, EXR

(Note that working with these cultivators very likely happened after Wei Wuxian's soul had failed to be summoned, since this happens some time after Wei Wuxian's death, whereas the soul-summoning ceromonies presumably started happening very close to it.)

In the previous paragraph, he's also quoted as having 'lusted after' the Yin hufu, which we already knew but it's nice to have a direct quote as evidence.

Now, would Wei WuXian willingly work with the Jin sect in doing this? No. We know that, and, given Wei Wuxian's actions in his first life (refusing to hand over the Tally, not being afraid to stand up to the sects, etc), I’m pretty sure Jin Guangshan knows that, too:

He beat around the bush a couple of times, using all his skills, yet Wei WuXian didn’t give in no matter what, and it made him run into a bunch of obstacles. - Villainous Friends extra, EXR

So this could actually make things go two ways. One, I'm wrong and that wasn't actually part of the Jin sect's motivations, since they know they wouldn't be able to control him (and in that case, had they managed to summon him, I could imagine them putting him in a spirit-trapping pouch and doing something similar to what Jin Guangyao did to Nie Mingjue's head. Which, also, not good). Two, it was a part of their motivations, and they hoped to find a way around that. After all, there are other guidao users out there now, and Wei Wuxian would now be a gui*. Also, cultivators can obviously harm ghosts – see the very existence of Night Hunts, and I'd include Xue Yang's talisman-caused destruction of A-Qing as well (while he isn't a traditional cultivator, talismans can be used by everyone).

Now, would either of these methods actually work? I'm inclined to think not really (and I expand on the former method in a note below). Would that stop Jin Guangshan/Jin Guangyao/the cultivators they employ from trying? Especially considering Jin Guangshan's lust for power?

I'm inclined to think no, too.

For the third, look no further than Jiang Cheng's reputation of capturing and torturing demonic cultivators after Wei Wuxian's death, due to thinking they could be him. And this does happen – Jin Ling knows and talks about it, and there's not real motivation for him to negatively lie about someone he loves. Also, when they come across each other at Dafan Mountain, we're told this in Jiang Cheng's inner voice:

A moment ago, Jiang Cheng was certain that this person was Wei WuXian, and all of the blood in his body started to boil. Yet, now, Zidian was clearly telling him that he wasn’t. Zidian definitely wouldn’t deceive him or make a mistake, so he quickly calmed himself and thought, this doesn’t mean anything. I should first find an excuse to take him back and use every possible method to get information out of him. It’s impossible for him to not confess anything or give himself away. I’ve done things like this in the past anyways. - MDZS Chapter 10, EXR translation

This mainly shows that he's tortured people before, rather than that he's tortured people because he thinks they're Wei Wuxian, but this reason is confirmed by Jin Ling in Chapter 24. Of course, the reason is also mentioned in this chapter, and there are other moments in the chapter that illustrate my point better**, but they come from second-hand sources which I know are easier to deny. Do take note of Jiang Cheng's expression both times he comes across 'Mo Xuanyu' (after he suspects he's Wei Wuxian) in Book One***, though:

After a moment, the corners of Jiang Cheng’s lips pulled into a twisted smile. His left hand started to unconsciously stroke the ring [Zidian] again. He spoke softly, “… Well, well. So you’re back?” - Chapter 10, EXR Although his face had always been clouded, marked with arrogance and satire, it seemed as if every corner of it had come alive. It was difficult to determine whether it was vengeful wrath, fathomless hatred, or raving ecstasy. - Chapter 23, EXR

This does seem to line up with what people say his attitude to Wei Wuxian is – there doesn't seem to be any happiness at seeing him again at all. The only time a word that could suggest that ('ecstasy') is used, it's accompanied by 'raving', and considering the context and the other possibilities of his expression, it's... probably not due to happiness at being reunited.

So, considering 1) this, 2) his contribution to the Siege specifically intended to kill Wei Wuxian, and 3) that at the time of frequent soul-summoning Jiang Yanli's death would be even closer for him, I feel pretty confident in saying that yes, this is likely a motivation for the Jiang sect in trying to re-summon Wei Wuxian's soul after his death. And, as mentioned earlier, cultivators can harm ghosts (and we know Zidian is able to remove souls posessing a body from that body, and that Jiang Cheng used Zidian on 'Mo Xuanyu' in Chapter 10. If it wasn't able to restrain/harm ghosts, or other methods weren't able to, why would he risk Wei Wuxian's soul escaping?).

And finally, option four: destruction. We're heading into much more speculative territory here, so don't consider this on par with the first three. But consider this:

We know there are some spells, like Xue Yang's talisman used on A-Qing and the body-offering ritual, that can ruin the returning soul’s reincarnation cycle by destroying it. Therefore, soul destruction is possible.

The 'main'/supposed reason for summoning Wei Wuxian's soul back is to stop the "cultivation world, or even all of mortal land" from being "faced with the most insane damnation and revenge, sinking into nothing but chaos and despair" when Wei Wuxian inevitably returns. While, as mentioned above, I severely doubt this is the motivation for certain sects – and to me is likely a rumour which the Jins (again, especially Jin Guangsha) fanned the flames of to justify summoning Wei Wuxian back for their own purposes**** – there are other sects which would take it more seriously.

Although likely disrespectful, people already thought it served Wei Wuxian right to die without his body intact by the time of the second siege – something believed to negatively affect your reincarnation in your next life*****. This is only the logical next step, and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would believe that, again, it would serve Wei Wuxian right, or would at least lead to less harm of the world in the long run.

For these reasons, I could definitely see this as an option for some sects, especially the sects who consider themselves more 'righteous' (cough cough the Nies under Nie Mingjue cough cough). After all, evil is evil and good is good, and the evil deserve what's coming to them. And what better way to prevent that than from preventing his soul from returning at all? So for the Nie sect – and likely some of the smaller sects involved in the Siege, since among them, additudes probably vary – yes, I do think it could be a motivation.

I’m not as sure about the Lans being willing to go this far, and that’s largely for two reasons. One, Lan Wangji’s presence and his relationship to Lan Xichen, who does (not always, but he does) let this affect how he treats Wei Wuxian. An example of this is that, when Wei Wuxian's return is made public, Lan Xichen does let him hide and shelter at the Cloud Recesses instead of trying to pursue him, likely majorly due to Lan Wangji. I'd argue that the aftermath of the Nightless City also acts as an example of this, although it definitely isn't perfect. But though he, Lan Qiren and the 33 elders do come to find Lan Wangji and do not let him continue to shelter Wei Wuxian (after they see Lan Wangji's feelings), Lan Xichen doesn't use this opportunity to kill/capture Wei Wuxian, despite Lan Wangji being in a worse condition due to having fought 33 elders, Wei Wuxian being catatonic, and Lan Qiren likely supporting this outcome (especially considering he was the one who led the Lan sect in the Siege – chapter 68, Wei Wuxian's POV). And he did let Lan Wangji take Wei Wuxian back to the Burial Mounds after:

After he went out of his way to send you back to Burial Mound and returned in such low spirits to receive his punishment, how long he kneeled before the Wall of Rules! - Chapter 99, EXR

Again, this was right after the Nightless City massacre – there isn't any goodwill towards Wei Wuxian at this point in time.

Of course, the Lan sect did participate in the siege after Lan Xichen knew of Lan Wangji's feelings towards Wei Wuxian, which Lan Xichen was no doubt a part of (although Lan Qiren lead the Lan sect in the siege, Lan XIchen had to have at least known/given his support, if not participated.) And it should be considered that Lan Xichen letting Wei Wuxian shelter at the Cloud Recesses was after Wei Wuxian had been back for a while, and had not caused the downfall of the Cultivation World, like many suspected he would after his death. And of course, as stated previously, his handling of the aftermath of Nightless City wasn't perfect either (though please note that his main motive here was to protect Lan Wangji from being potentially executed, rather than anything about Wei Wuxian himself). So caring about Lan Wangji doesn't mean he won't harm Wei Wuxian. But I do think he could find bringing Wei Wuxian's soul back to completely destroy it a bit excessive. There is, though, the chance that the elders of the Lan Sect would react to this differently, and of course they would have a sway on both Lan Xichen and the Lan sect as well.

The second reason is smaller, but there seems to be more focus in the Lan sect than in others when it comes to letting ghosts rest peacefully/helping them move on. And that could definitely lead to more resistance to the idea of summoning a soul back to destroy it as well, which could especially impact the elders. So I'd assume that the Lan sect would be the most likely sect to summon Wei Wuxian's soul back just for confinement, or just for some way of making sure any resentment is disippated, his spirit moves on, and he can't cause more harm to the world (eg via Inquiry)******. Not that he would or does as a ghost or as a reborn person, but that's unfortunately not relevant to this.

But yes, as a motivation for the Nie Mingjue-led Nie sect? Absolutely.

So, these are the main motives I suspect to be behind the attempted summoning of Wei Wuxian's soul after his death (and if I've missed any, please let me know – I'd love to have a discussion). And, of course, none of them lead to anywhere good. Because of course it wasn’t enough to besiege Wei Wuxian, murder the 50 non-combatants he was responsible for (and throwing them into the blood pit as a mark of disrespect because why not?), and lead to his death via him getting torn apart. It wasn’t enough to steal all his inventions, and use them commonly while still slandering him with no reprieve – or to steal his notes and give them to people like Xue Yang to study (Villainous Friends, again) and to use for their own, extremely extremely harmful, purposes. Of course, the cultivation world has to try to harm Wei Wuxian after death as well ((:

We don't know whether Wei Wuxian rejecting the summoning ceremonies was conscious or unconscious, but if it was the former, these are very likely reasons he refused to return in this way. If it was unconscious – for example, maybe during the frequent soul-summons his soul was in a weakened state due to him dying from a backlash of resentful energy and getting torn apart, and it healed over time but not before the soul-summoning rituals stopped – well, I can only be thankful.

Finally, let me leave you on the thought that – although it may well have happened since we don't spend much time in the immediate aftermath of the Sunshot campaign – there isn't even any textual mention of this happening to Wen Ruohan. Who, while not being a guidao user, was still very dangerous, still an extremely powerful cultivator, and still had a lot of reason to feel resentment. So.

:')

Thank you for reading!

*Considering what we see of how Wei Wuxian's guidao functions – redirecting the ghosts'/corpses' resentment into doing something they'd want to do, eg attacking people, and directing it towards a target – I'm not sure using it to force a spirit to do something 1) extremely specific, and 2) explicitly against their will would actually work. Iirc the closest thing we get to this in text is Wei Wuxian using the corpses of Wens to attack other Wens in the Sunshot Campaign, but he's still just directing their resentment to a target of his choice, and fierce corpses do tend to be on the less concious side of things (hence why Wei Wuxian had to awaken Wen Ning's consciousness). Considering how Wen Ning attacks Wei Wuxian and the Burial Mound Wens before his consciousness had fully awoken, I... really don't think those fierce corpses were able to differentiate (or didn't care).

Meanwhile, ghosts seem to be a bit more in control of themselves – see A-Qing, and Wei Wuxian's own descriptions of his ghost self.

That, alongside ghost!Wei Wuxian being able to resist his soul-summoning and the fact that pretty much all of the new guidao users are a lot weaker than he was, does make me think that this this wouldn't work. I do wonder about Xue Yang, since his methods are pretty different as well, but he's more of a modao user than a guidao user (he controls living corpses rather than dead people) and I don't think you can insert physical nails into ghosts?? Though if he was specifically instructed to figure out some way to control ghost!Wei Wuxian (who's probably kept in a spirit-trapping pouch in this scenario), he might be able to do something at least. Though also he was also struggling to piece Xiao Xingchen's ghost soul back together, so he may struggle with those areas?

Well, whatever the potential outcome, I'm so so happy once again that Wei Wuxian's soul managed to resist the soul-summonings...

**Mainly this:

Everyone in the cultivation world knew that the young leader of the Jiang Clan watched out for Wei WuXian in an almost crazed manner. He would rather catch the wrong person than let go of any possibility, and took anyone who seemed like they held the soul of Wei WuXian away to the YunmengJiang Sect, inflicting severe torture on his victim. If he wanted to take someone back, the opposition would surely lose half of their life. - Chapter 10, EXR

But I have heard people say 'you can't prove that it's just more rumours' before, and I wanted my evidence to be as watertight as possible.

(And, off-topic... isn't it really sad how Jiang Cheng, in the present day, is described as young? Because, for a clan leader, he is. And another thing he is, is close in age to Wei Wuxian – who was killed 13 whole years prior :') )

***And do note that the only other time they run into each other before Wei Wuxian's identity is revealed to the world apart from this is their brief interaction at Jinlintai, where he can't just act however he wants. The next time they run into each other after it, Jiang Cheng is literally taking part in another siege against him, and still extremely hostile ("surrounded by hostile energy, face insidious, staring straight at him" – from EXR chapter 60). Then he loses his spiritual powers and can't do anything. By the time he regains his powers, Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and the Wen remnants' corpses have saved everyone during the Second Siege, and though public opinion hasn't properly shifted quite yet, it will soon after Sisi and Bicao tell the story of Jin Guangyao, and voila, a new scapegoat (do note that he doesn't completely bar Wei Wuxian from entering Lotus Pier after the Second Siege, though). Plus, throughout it all, Lan Wangji is still constantly present, which makes it hard for Jiang Cheng to really do anything. And then he's finally faced with the Golden Core reveal, which does alter his motivations towards Wei Wuxian (obviously the resentment is still there – read chapter 102 – but it's also mixed with other complex emotions, and he seems to start being able to move away from that a little in Chapter 103). I still definitely wouldn't describe Jiang Cheng's attitude towards him as positive, but it isn't at the point it was at the start of the novel (eg Chapter 10).

But even if his attitude does change, or would for whatever other reason apart from the reveal, that still doesn't change an initial motivation so isn't relevant to this meta. We know his intentions at the start.

****It's also possible they may have originated it, but I think WWX's reputation was bad enough for it to form naturally. Though you can trace a major part of that back to them, too.

*****That belief isn't outright stated in MDZS, but the fact people are specifically talking about the status of WWX's body in the aftermath of his death suggests that this belief does have some grounding in the MDZS universe, at least? And we know MXTX has included it in TGCF (though that doesn't mean it's definitely in MDZS), so she has used it in her works. If this isn't the case in the MDZS universe I am sorry (although that could also mean there's less importance placed on not disturbing the reincarnation cycle in the world of MDZS...? Which would work towards my original argument) – I don't want to spread misinformation that something is definitely true, I just think there's evidence to suggest it is true, which isn't the same thing.

******Again, I think this would depend on who ends up having more influence over who in the Lan sect. After all, normal resentful spirits only do what they do because of their resentment in death, whereas Wei Wuxian is 'dangerous' because of who everyone thinks he was in life – so him being reborn naturally could also 'cause a lot of harm to the world' during the time period this version of him would live in, unlike the resentful ghosts they appease. This could definitely lead to many advocating for confinement, I think.

#writing this takes me back to my nie huaisang one #'detective metas' i'd call both of them #as opposed to analysis of characters or themes #it may be less 'meaningful' but it's still fun to explore and speculate within a world you love #...albeit maybe not for this one because. mdzs jianghu when i get my hands on you-#also i fully acknowledge i may be wrong #but again i'd love to have discussions about these! debates and knowledge exchange are what leads to better understanding of source materia #which is a major goal of mine in writing these #mdzs meta #my meta #wei wuxian #mdzs cultivation world #long post #mo dao zu shi #gdc #grandmaster of demonic cultivation #魔道祖师 #mxtx #detective meta #<– if i ever make this a tag #also i feel like you could write a fic (angsty or not so angsty depending on where you go with it) where the lan sect somehow-#-summons ghost!wwx back (not sure how bc the jin and jiang sects would probably want 'custody' of him more - and i don't think summoning-#-rituals are done by just one sect at a time? but imagine it happens) and idk he's kept in a spirit-trapping pouch or sth #lwj probably isn't told bc of what happened after nightless city - elders can't really trust him in matters to do with wwx #but maybe lxc feels bad for him or sth (especially bc he's mourning him and stuff + what happened after he found out wwx was dead)#and tells him and maybe brings wwx's soul to him for a bit so wwx can respond to inquiry #and they talk and obv. wwx is NOT happy with the situation (both rn and yk bc of the VERY RECENT SIEGE)#but but but! the thing that would stop this being completely depressing is that LWJ HAS A-YUAN SO WWX FINDS OUT HE SURVIVED #also lwj's injuries would likely come up at SOME point which would lead to wwx finding out abt nightless city afermath #AA NOO THE TAGS WENT ON FOR SO MUCH LONGER BUT I GUESS TUMBLR DOESN'T ALLOW SO MANY i'll have to make another post...

112 notes · View notes

sunnykeysmash · 1 year ago

Text

Man of words

#s16 spoilers #iasip #it's always sunny in philadelphia #always sunny #macdennis #analysis #parallels #I didn't exactly know how to name this thread but i had some scattered thoughts on it #dennis is the one mac depends on to define things. he's the man of words. but this situation is very limiting #firstly because mac can't read subtext. and dennis will rarely be open in his words. but he also doesn't know everything.#cant define everything. and by forcing the situation to have dennis speak for both. what actually happens is mac gets silenced #and when mac cant speak. no one besides dennis can ever possibly understand him. and that is very isolating. because den wont be open. cant #but they trust each other. theyre following each other's lead. and they're missing the right words #den defines his own self worth in the relationship by being able to have the right words. mac is the man of action! after all #but if mac learns to speak for himself. if mac doesn't depend on den (chokes). if mac is noticed for his appearance as den becomes insecure #(''what if my shirt falls off?'') what does den have left for mac? but mac will fall for him no matter what.#''make up or not you are the golden god! it's all about what's in here💗''#maybe words arent necessary anymore. dont ask just do. and mac's the man of action... OR IS HE.#mac doesn't really act now does he. they got it backwards. don't they? mac got a lot better with his words in time...#idk lots to think about let me know what u think lolll #threads

463 notes · View notes

airenyah · 24 days ago

Note

hello~ i was rewatching the THK trailer again and noticed something interesting: FadelStyle go from using formal/polite khun/pom pronouns -> informal/rude meung/guu later in the series.

In the trailer, I think I hear Fadel using them in the "I don't like being pursued" line and Style uses them when he says "Whenever I'm with you, you either make me feel so scared, or so damn safe".

I was wondering if you had any Thoughts about that? I was surprised they use rude pronouns when it looks like KantBison keep using khun/pom throughout. Do you think the rude pronouns a sign that FadelStyle are closer or more a feature of their personality/dynamics?

I'm still very confused about how any of the pronoun stuff works, so I apologies if this doesn't make any sense. ^^;;

ah, it's funny you should send me this ask because only last night before i went to sleep did i ramble in a group chat about the pronoun use in ep1 😂

disclaimer: i'm not a thai native speaker and i actually get kinda anxious talking about the thai language publicly out of fear of getting something embarrassing wrong lmao. calling fellow language nerd @visualtaehyun as well as Known Native Speakers™ @recentadultburnout and @happypotato48 for double checks and potential corrections in case i'm blabbering bullshit at any point <3

yeah, in the trailer it seemed to me that fadel and style were consistently using guu/mueng for each other except for when style was trying to flirt with fadel on purpose (as in, when he's flirting for kant and the car, not when he's saying flirty or romantic shit bc he genuinely likes fadel now. or at least that's what i thought was going on upon watching the trailer for the first time kfkdkfdkjkjfd)

so when i watched ep1 i was actually kinda surprised bc i hadn't expected them to consistently start out using phom/khun with each other at first! which probably also comes from the fact that i hadn't expected them to meet on their own before kant hires style to hit on fadel hahaha (like, i didn't think the "my nipples are sensitive" scene would happen before kant sets style onto fadel. i thought at that point he was already very purposefully flirting with fadel for the sake of the mission, but instead it's all style himself just to get on fadel's nerves 😂)

anyway, in ep1 fadel and style use pretty much only phom/khun with each other EXCEPT for style at three very specific points:

he uses "guu" to refer to himself at the very end of the scene of their first meeting when fadel drives off and style shouts something about fadel scolding him like a dad when fadel has left already. i'm like 90% sure i hear him say "guu" in that specific sentence

you probably caught him call fadel "nong" to be an extra little shit when he sat down and made fadel get him those beers

when fadel manoeuvers style out of the restaurant and style is raging he uses phom/khun until the very last sentence where the subs say "i'm gonna take you out!". unfortunately i can't understand the entire sentence that well but he starts the sentence with "guu" and i'm fairly sure i hear the words "เป็นแฟนกู" [bpen faen guu] which translate to "be my boyfriend" and so i'm guessing he's saying something along the lines of "i'll make you my boyfriend" or "you will be my boyfriend" (calling a native speaker to pls transcribe that sentence for me thank youuu 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻)

so we see that style uses the rude pronoun set guu/mueng when he's annoyed (no. 1) and when he's seriously pissed (no. 3). other than that he sticks to formal/polite pronouns throughout the first episode

however, we know that they're gonna be using guu/mueng for each other regularly at some point from the trailer and there's also that scene in the promo for next episode where fadel asks style who sent him: they're both using guu/mueng in the "who sent you?" "i like you" exchange

so now the question is when and why do they switch from polite to rude pronouns? personally i'm speculating that fadel is gonna start using guu/mueng with style once he's seriously fed up and annoyed by style. bc rude pronouns aren't just used to show closeness/intimacy but also when, you know, you're actively trying to be rude. and i could see fadel switch to the rude pronouns for the exact reason of being rude on purpose in order to emphasize his disdain for style and to give him a hint to fuck off. and i could see style going along with the pronoun switch bc he sure ain't intimidated by fadel and won't go away that easily hahaha

and if that really does happen then i could see them just sticking to the rude pronouns from that moment on, since these pronouns can be used in an informal way too and it does fit their dynamic

also, i just went and rewatched the trailer bc i wanted to see if there were any scenes in which fadel and style use phom/khun for each other that we haven't seen yet and yeah, all the scenes from the trailer in which they do use the polite pronouns are scenes that we in fact all got to see in ep1 already. then we have the "good morning krub" scene happening next episode, which i'm guessing is gonna happen before fadel corners style in the locker room. and i'm guessing at that point they (or at least style) will still be using phom/khun since that's what they've established as their pronouns they use to their face (note how in the above list, style is never standing right in front of fadel, yelling directly into fadel's face when he uses "guu", so fadel likely isn't even aware of it). and i'm also guessing that then when fadel is eventually seriously fed up and suspicious of style, he changes to guu/mueng in order to show his anger and to basically declare a war with style. and style switches to guu/mueng too in order to fight back bc he sure as hell won't let fadel intimidate him

idk what language you have as a first/native language, but mine is german and in german we also differentiate between formal and informal pronouns. although for us it's by far (by FAR) not as nuanced as thai pronouns since we differentiate only two pronouns for the 2nd person: formal "you" (Sie - pronounced "see") vs informal "you" (du - pronounced "doo"). and in german it is absolutely considered rude if you use "du" to address a person you should be using "Sie" for. and you can absolutely show your negative emotions (like anger, annoyance, etc) towards your conversational partner who you should be addressing with "Sie" by suddenly switching to "du", esp when you're trying to start a fight. and yeah i can see fadel switching to rude/informal pronounce in this way, to kind of start a fight with style so style will finally fuck off

and in german, usually once you're on a "du" level of addressing each other (esp if you do it regularly and it wasn't just a one-off sentence in an argument or something) then you usually wouldn't go back to using the formal "Sie" for each other. of course in thai everything is muuuuch more complicated and complex than in german when it comes to pronouns, so this is kinda like comparing apples with oranges. but yeah, i can totally see fadel and style sticking to the rude/informal pronouns since they've already crossed that line. since they've already established that they can use this level (register) of language with each other, so why bother going back to a more formal/polite register?

we'll have to wait and see if i'm right with my speculation about the pronoun switch, though. of course it could happen totally differently than what i think (who knows, maybe they'll hop between guu/mueng and khun/phom for a while depending on their moods, like, whether they're being civil to each other bc the given situation calls for it or whether style is actively hitting on fadel or whether they're annoyed/pissed at each other and basically challenging each other to a fight)

and i don't find it surprising that kant and bison would be using different pronouns for each other. they did meet under completely different circumstances and they have a completely different relationship to each other than fadel and style do

one thing thai and german pronouns have in common is that their usage depends heavily on who is talking to whom and also what situation/context the conversation is happening in. german speaking kids are taught that they have to address adults with the formal "Sie" pronoun unless they're given explicit permission by the adult to use the informal "du". german learners who take it up as a second language are taught that they need to use the formal "Sie" when talking to strangers. however, that doesn't reflect the reality at all. there are situation where you can immediately jump to the informal "du" without asking for permission first even when you don't know the person while if you met this very same person for the first time in a different situation you might have to call them "Sie" or else they'd be offended because using "du" would be very rude in this context

now if we look at bison and kant's first meeting... kant is trying to hit on bison. a rude pronoun that you'd use out of negative feelings or with peers/close friends seems a little inappropriate in this situation, don't you think? it would definitely have made the unsolicited advice sound even worse and more invasive, imo 😂

and also throughout the entire episode their goal is to be polite and friendly to the other person, since, you know, they're trying to get on the other person's good side in order to get something out of it. and even when (and after) they get to know each other, well, intimately, they don't really have a reason to be rude to each other or use more vulgar language, i feel like? UNLIKE fadel and style, who are actively trying to piss each other off

i'm not surprised that fadelstyle and kantbison use different sets of pronouns for each other since the couples have very different starting points with very different goals that require very different strategies in order to successfully get there

i hope i managed to explain it in a way that makes sense to you <3

#asks #airenyah explains thai #thk language use #thk #i mean this happens in english all the time as well #there are couples who will use nicer registers with each other and sweet/polite words and stuff #while other couples will be very comfortable using vulgar language like ''fuck'' or similar around each other #not just romantic/sexual couples but with friendships too #in one friendship i might talk about ''shitting'' while in the next friendship i might talk about ''pooping'' instead #bc the word ''shitting'' feels too rude #and in other friendships i might just avoid the word altogether and just talk about ''going to the bathroom''#it just really depends on who the person is and what the context is whether you feel comfortable using more vulgar/rude language or not #it's like this with thai pronouns: you always have to ask yourself #''who is the speaker? who are they speaking with? what is the context of the conversation‚ what is the situation?#would vulgar/rude language be appropriate here or not?''#if kant and bison had started throwing around words like ''fuck'' and ''fucking'' in the bowling scene #or during any of their meetings #it might have been weird in english too imo #whereas fadel cornering style and going ''what the FUCK do you want who fucking sent you'' absolutely makes sense

43 notes · View notes