#i hate you red hood and the outlaws from new 52

[moonundernostalgia]

When i'm reading a birdflash fanfic but discover the writer also ships jayroy:

[definitelysome1]

I hate people who are like “go read the comics” or “this is so OOC” or “x would never do/say that”

Because like, when it comes to the Batfam/young heroes, canon is SO confusing:

Both teen titans/titans and Young Justice are Canon, but they can’t exist at the same time since Dick and Tim have been on both teams

In teen titans/TTG miss martian/m’gann and Artemis don’t exist (the same with Aqualad I think)

And in YJ starfire, cyborg, and raven don’t exist.

In TTG starfire doesn’t like Robin back, but in teen titans they’re dating.

In TTG Robin hated Kidflash, but in YJ Dick and Wally are best friends.

In both TTG, Teen titans, and TITENS, Dick is the Robin on the team, but in the DCAMU Damian is Robin and his love interest is Raven.

In the comics Jason is the happy, exited, and impulsive Robin, but in TITANS he’s super aggressive and just not like he is in the comics

In YJ Conner is vastly different from In the comics.

In the comics Artemis, Roy(Arsenal), Kory(starfire) and Jason(red hood) are in a group called ‘The Outlaws’, but in other comics, and shows they don’t even exist together.

In YJ Artemis joins the YJ, but Roy gives up being speedy and becomes Red Arrow. In YJ it’s revealed that Roy is actually a clone of the original, and the OG ends up becoming Arsenal, though totally different from his comic counterpart.

And as icing on the cake, Kory doesn’t even exist in YJ.

Some of the comics also totally fuck up canon, along with some of the games (like Gotham knights), but I’ve never played the games or read the comics, so I can’t really say a lot about that.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that people should let others enjoy their media in peace, even if it’s OOC to what you believe is “true canon”

(NOTE: I’ve seen a lot of people both defend and hate on new 52 because of the direct opposition it has with other comics, yet it is still canon. It just goes to show that nothing and everything is canon, no one is right and no one is wrong.)

[redhoodinternaldialectical]

I don’t think Jason has ever hated Tim

I recently revived my Jason Todd hyperfixation from its torpor and realized I had... Means and Ways of reading as many comics as I want for free, so I made the transition from Fanon Only to having read Lost Days, Under the Red Hood, Teen Titans #29 (where Jason fights and beats the tar out of Tim), Hush, Red Hood and the Outlaws (the majority of both runs), Red Robin: The Grail, Batman and Robin: Streets Run Red, Green Arrow #70 - #73 (where Jason kidnaps Mia), Battle for the Cowl, and a smattering of other bits and bobs, all within the last month.

I have come to the conclusion that the idea that Jason hated Tim before slowly learning to be okay with him is completely backwards.

Jason starts respecting Tim as a fellow combatant after basically their first meeting, and was sympathizing with him even before. Fandom talks a lot about how Jason repeatedly tried to kill Tim, but I think there’s a good argument to be made that actually Jason has never tried to kill Tim, and there’s a better argument that Jason has never tried to hurt Tim out of a dislike for him.

Tim is the one who feels viciously betrayed by Jason, hates his guts, and depending on if you blend in the New 52 either learns to begrudgingly like him or just stays hatin.

Obviously I need some proof here, since this goes completely against the grain of every relationship interpretation I’ve ever seen for them, so approximately seven miles of character analysis under the cut lmao

I’m gonna try to go in chronological order of the characters’ history here, which means we’re starting with Lost Days, and Jason’s first reaction to finding out there’s a new Robin:

This does not look like anger to me.

Lost Days is only six issues long, and this is the entirety of the pages devoted to Jason’s feelings on Tim. Jason succeeds in a plan that would have almost certainly killed Batman if Jason had gone through with it. Jason undeniably has Joker dead to rights at one point, but lets him go. Jason at no point in this story attempts to harm Tim at all.

Now for Hush.

Context for fanon only folks: this is where the “throat slitting” bit happens.

Context for a lot of confusion: I don’t know if Jason is the one who holds Tim hostage or not.

In the original Hush plot line this is only Clayface; Jason isn’t here at all. It was later retconned in Under the Red Hood that Jason was actually in this fight for... some amount of time. It’s highly unclear to me when they swap out. Probably because originally, they didn’t swap out. Oh well! In either case, it’s now canon that Jason coached Clayface on his acting, so for the purposes of this essay, Imma hold Jason responsible for the throat damages and the words said regardless of who did what!

Right off the bat: this is a hostage taking, not a murder. Yes, Clayson Jayface does nick Tim’s neck and absolutely makes the threat of murdering him to Batman, but it’s clearly a threat. Like, look at this panel:

He is talking a lot. This isn’t an attempt to kill Tim, it’s an attempt to screw with Batman. No matter who this is, they have every reason to expect that Batman will stop them before they do any permanent damage. Can you see that little, blurry, half-hidden line of red? Lets look at what the damage was later on:

The bleeding was stopped by a bit of cloth, some pressure, and he’ll need stitches eventually, but they can clearly wait, and Tim doesn’t seem alarmed. That’s enough to scar, and enough that it is perfectly reasonable for Tim to assume that he would have died if he hadn’t been rescued.

However, Jason being deeply protective of kids is a reasonably consistent character trait. “You really think I’m gonna bring the pain to a ten year old?” Even at Jason’s most villainous, he is willing to put himself in danger in order to protect his own sidekick Scarlet. I think it would be very out of character for him to have gone through with it. Combined with Jason’s later actions and the general fact that a hostage is pretty useless dead, I come to the conclusion that Jason was bluffing.

It is ambiguous though, and I admit that this is probably the weakest link in the “Jason never tried to kill him” chain.

But enough of that, was he angry with him? Is the hate there?

I argue no, and that really there’s no emotional investment in Tim at all. In terms of hard numbers the pages Jalay Toddface spends holding Tim hostage is 3 and the number he spends fighting Batman is 13 and the number of times he even so much as LOOKS at Tim is ZERO, like actually, literally ZERO TIMES. He does not spare poor Timmy a SINGLE GLANCE.

Now make a special note here because those three pages of no eye contact from someone who might not even be Jason are the ONLY times that Tim is called Pretender or Imposter.

I’m relying on this research done by Kiragecko: https://kiragecko.tumblr.com/post/128411908944/bat-sibling-interaction It only goes up to Battle for the Cowl, (as does this essay it turns out, I just don’t know how to bridge between that and the New 52) so it isn’t every interaction ever, but it’s still excellent research, go leave a like.

According to them: “Comments: Tim thinks about Jason a lot while he’s first training. He imagines the former Robins giving him pep talks, and uses them to fight off fear gas. When Jason comes back, though, Tim’s really nasty, especially in his head. Jason, however, is somewhat respectful. He usually calls Tim ‘Tim’, and seems to kind of like him. ‘Pretender’ and ‘Imposter’ are things that CLAYFACE said, not Jason.“

How many times are those said? Once. Each. That’s it. As a comment under the Jason and Tim post done by Kiragecko points out, “Replacement” doesn’t even get used.

Under the Red Hood is basically THE Jason Todd comic. To my memory he doesn’t interact with Tim in it. However, it does contain that aforementioned reconning! So we get to see his reasoning during this encounter.

And it very very clearly isn’t at all about Tim.

Moving on to Titans Tower, which is indisputably focused on Tim: When he fights Tim, he is absolutely violent and over the line, but he’s NOT out of his head. Jason is clearly very lucid and careful about what he’s doing.

Is he angry? Of course! He’s angry at the Titans who in his mind cared about him way less than their other members, and accepted a replacement robin as though his life, his whole flesh and blood self, was something that could be so easily forgotten and swapped out.

But I think it would be a mistake to assume that Jason’s at all mad that he isn’t Robin anymore.

A very interesting direct parallel to this fight is when Jason kidnaps Mia, Green Arrow’s sidekick Speedy, fights her, appeals to their commonalities and encourages her to solve crime his way rather than Green Arrow’s way.

In both scenarios Jason engineers a way to isolate a sidekick and attempts to teach them something through combat. He makes a direct appeal to them against their mentors, and seems genuine about what he’s saying. He also lets both of them live, and with Mia is honestly pretty damned polite about it all. At least, as polite as a guy can be about kidnapping you and encouraging you to try to kill him in your high school gym that he definitely should not know about.

The plain fact of the matter is that Jason knocked Tim out, had time to paint his whole ass name way up high on a wall, and did not kill him. This is the same Jason who just prior to that took out all of Tim’s allies non-lethally. The same Jason who kept Mia’s protector’s busy non-lethally. The same Jason who cuts Mia free and gives her weapons back and starts slow in their fighting to make sure he doesn’t hurt her too badly. The same Jason who seems to feel very strongly that killing, trafficking, or selling drugs to kids is an unforgivable offense and very clearly sees Tim as a kid.

Quite frankly, this reads not like a murder, and not like a jealous beatdown, but an attempt to convince Tim that he’s going to get himself killed and needs to get out while he still can. In Jason’s mind before they meet, Tim is purely A Robin, a kid who deserves better than to be put into danger against the same monsters over and over again until he finally slips up and dies.

Is this a hairbrained and back asswards way of doing that? Yes! But it does track for someone who tries to do all of his talking through his actions, which do speak louder than words, but unfortunately C-4 loudness is not actually a significant boon to nuanced communication.

If you want to put it in a less charitable way (and maybe we should, this is a bonkers asshole move on Jason’s part no matter how you slice it) then we can say Jason is testing Tim, trying to see if this one has what it takes to be better than he was, to survive where he couldn’t. Personally I think it’s a mix of both, and for this end of that emotional mess: Tim passes the test.

Jason leaves while talking about Tim in present tense, showing that he has every expectation of Tim being alive, and praises him in the process:

Did you know that the fun panel of Tim kicking Jason in the nuts is actually from the same comic run, about twenty or so issues later?

Did you know that the argument they were having starts with Dick and Tim wrestling with Jason and accusing him of a murder he did not commit, and in fact tried to save the victim from?

Did I mention yet that the death in question was of Duela Dent, aka the JOKER’S DAUGHTER, whom Jason caught attempting to hold a young woman hostage for ransom? And that Jason repeatedly shot her getaway balloon instead of her and then tried to save her life immediately afterwards despite the fact that she was going to let the hostage plummet to their death? And it is implied that part of the reason he’s so easy on her is because of “Once a Titan always a Titan” loyalty, with this being our first clue that Jason isn’t the one shooting at her anymore?

Did I also mention that he comes to her funeral in part to be around Donna (the starry leotard lady whose statue he smashed) because it’s nice to be around people who understand being displaced by their own death? And that the one who sticks up for him in this scene is Donna?

At risk of negating my own thesus here, I’d say it’s reasonable to think that maybe Jason feels rage-hate for Tim in this “kicked in the dick while Dick grins smugly” moment.

Lets go now to Robin #177 at the tail end of the 1993 to 2003 run - Bruce has “died” and Tim hasn’t yet gone on his epic quest to find him. Tim finds Jason unifying street gangs with the intent to bring them under control and solve the current crisis. He appeals to Tim for help with this, in fact he comes off as almost puppy dog eager to work with him, and seems really sad when he says fuck no.

This is one of the first fights in which Tim really holds his own against Jason, and I am very proud of him, yes :3

This gets Jason arrested. Then Tim actually goes through with a heavily modified, less violent version of Jason’s plan that Jason didn’t think could work. A few issues later, when Tim decides that he’s going to try to honor what Bruce would have wanted by springing Jason out of jail, Jason makes note of that.

Jason is pretty damned civil at their next meeting, even though Tim makes it pretty damned clear he doesn’t want him around.

And now... we have to talk about Battle for the Cowl.

I’ve seen it described as a masterclass in how NOT to write Jason Todd, due to it portraying him as being an absolutely off his rocker anger murder violence man. I am inclined to agree.

In this three issue comic Jason Todd has been dRiVeN mAd (in the most bullshit comic sense of that word) by Bruce’s will... telling him to go to therapy. Yeah. So uh, he dons a Batman suit to shoot people in AND pretends to be Black Mask so he can enslave a bunch of villains Amanda Waller style, and like it gets weird from there. It is an extremely jarring transition from that last scene to GUNS BAT HATE MAN.

He still does not hate Tim in it. I really, seriously thought I was going to have to make a lot of excuses for this portion but then the more I read of it the more vindicated I was cause let me repeat: One of the most unhinged with Bat hate and crazy juice versions of Jason ever put to print does not hate Tim at all.

Hell, he likes Tim! He compliments him!

And on top of that, even though he is MUCH more lethal against his fellow robins when they attack him - Jason straight up shoots a ten year old Damian in the chest. It’s fucked. - There is still evidence to suggest that Jason deliberately didn’t kill Tim when he had ample opportunity.

Jason first of all never hunts Tim down. I’ve heard Battle for the Cowl described as Jason tracking Tim down or kidnapping him or going after him to force him to Be His Robin, but that’s just not how it goes.

Instead he waits for Tim to come find his Batcave, disorients him, and goes for a ton of surface cuts. He only actually goes for a real body blow after Tim picks up a crowbar and beats Jason across the face with it a few times.

(Again, proud of you Timmy)

After the stabbing, Jason doesn’t just leave Tim there; this isn’t a matter of hurrying on before he could check. He’s seen dragging Tim off. When Nightwing later comes to rescue him, Dick is downright certain Jason is lying to him about Tim being dead because Jason is refusing to show him the body and Dick figures it’s because he knows there’s no body to show (if in part because he can’t let himself believe Tim is dead without hard proof).

Tim himself wonders about this, noting that the batterang was rusted and shattered on his armor.

Sure, Tim used playing possum to make his pulse slow to a near stop for a while, maybe that fooled Jason, but keep in mind that BRUCE taught Tim that skill, and if there’s one thing these comics have established, it’s that Jason is dangerous precisely because he is so intimately familiar with the techniques of the Bat. Jason even makes specific note of the fact that Tim being trained like Bruce and fighting like Bruce would be his downfall at the beginning of their fight.

The whole comic leaves me wondering just how much of what happened went completely according to Jason’s plan. I really would not put it passed him to engineer a ‘death in the family’ recreation for the next Batman in line! As much as I agree that this is garbage characterization for him in many many ways, I do think Jason makes a fantastic villain. I love to see him run rings around the Bats in some places, and make lemonade out of getting his ass kicked in others.

No matter how we interpret the stabbing here though, what does seem very clear to me is that Jason makes the Be My Robin offer to Tim first and foremost because he thinks pretty highly of Tim! He’s been rejected by Tim at least three times over but keeps holding a hand out for him. This does not seem like Tim hater reaction hours here!

Also that whole thing about kids being dragged into this vigilante life irresponsibly? Yeah that’s still there!

I have TRIED to find evidence that Jason hates Tim at like literally any point here. I have gone through the shit people point to. I have looked at the context around those and dug up more obscure interactions for second and third views. Everywhere I look I just see more instances of Jason complimenting Tim!! It’s driving me nuts!

The only conclusion that I can come to is that people read this stuff and just trust that Tim is right about Jason. Tim’s internal view waaay more closely resembles fandom interpretation. Tim assumes that Clayson Toddface would absolutely have killed him in cold blood, that Jason beat the shit out of him purely to prove he was stronger, that he’s a brute, a moron, an active danger to society, and that every bit of leniency given to him will result in betrayal and death.

I don’t have clearer proof for it, but I also don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Tim probably believes Jason has it out for him and holds him responsible for his replacement.

So yeah. As a fascinating reversal of my expectations going in: I don’t think Jason has ever hated Tim, but boy fuckin howdy has Tim HATED Jason.

[necrotic-nephilim]

ok ok but jayroytim😏

this feels especially funny if brudick happens in the background and oliver hates the fact he's now in-laws with bruce

so i have to regretfully admit i'm not really a fan of JayRoy, or at least i'm not a fan of the popular version of JayRoy. i think JayRoy could work and would be a lot of fun! but i have *zero* interest in New-52!JayRoy (or New-52!Roy in general) or rlly any version of Jason and Roy on the Outlaws together. both bc i'm a pre-Flashpoint stan at heart. usually i can stand newer content for ship fodder but for these two oh man it grinds my gears how badly Roy got fucked over-

BUT BUT. that doesn't mean i think the ship has *no* merit. because Jason and Roy *do* have some fodder in pre-Flashpoint. they meet briefly when Jason is Robin, and then again when Jason is Red Hood during that Outsiders arc where Black Lightning is in prison. so! there's definitely material to work with. especially playing into the more fucked up nature of Roy knowing Jason when he was Robin. i think it's cute if Jason had a childhood crush on Roy. and maybe Roy even thought Jason was kind of cute, a spunky kid with a lot of energy and passion. then with Jason as Red Hood, Roy openly doesn't trust him and doesn't like that they're working with him. Jason is just a run-of-the-mill villain with a nasty kill count. and sure, Roy's got a record of tangling with people more on the villain side of things, but even going near the Red Hood feels like a step too far.

adding Tim to the mix is really fun. bc honestly it gives Roy some kind of a fetish for guys who have been Robin and i find that to be delightful. like, even if Roy just sees Jason as the Red Hood, he can't *quite* let go of the image of Jason as Robin. like it just won't get out of Roy's system ever since Jason came back. i think, if i were to write these three together, i'd have Roy and Tim get together first of all people, just because Roy is trying really hard to stop thinking about Jason as Robin, especially now that Jason is older and a little meaner. he's full of guilt about it, and he can't talk to Dick because he's still not sure where Dick's feelings fall about the whole Jason thing so. he goes to Tim instead, thinking if he fucks a different Robin, maybe he'll get it out of his system. Tim's pretty and he's just old enough that it's not *too* morally questionable for Roy to seek him out. it takes a while for Roy to work up the nerves because he and Tim aren't particularly close, so how do you even approach that conversation to make it look organic. it's awkward and Tim can definitely tell something is up but hey, who's going to say no to Roy Harper offering sex? one of Dick's best friends? especially if we put this right after Kon and Bart's death where Tim is just. sort of lonely and seeking companionship. in some ways,, Roy would remind him of Kon, just a little. that sort of cocky attitude and snarky smile.

i would add Jason in by having JayTim happen alongside RoyTim. it's not like Roy and Tim are serious enough to be exclusive and Tim knows Roy is sleeping around, so Tim ends up in a weird hatefucking situation with Jason, which definitely was not supposed to happen. Jason just has a damning way of getting under Tim's skin and won't stop bothering Tim until he gets some kind of attention from Tim. and somehow Jason is interesting enough for Tim to cave. and he doesn't even think about the two relationships he's balancing until he happens to sleep with Jason after being with Roy the night before and there are still marks all over him and Jason does *not* like sharing. so when he interrogates Tim and gets nothing, he does the reasonable thing of stalking Tim to figure out who it is. and it just happens to be the guy Jason had a crush on as a kid.

i think Roy finding out he tried so hard to avoid Jason that he accidentally ended up with the same fuck buddy as Jason would be the funniest thing in the world. like it's not something he can run from anymore and he has to accept that. he tries to awkwardly ask what Tim even sees in the guy bc well, Jason's a killer and not known for being mentally stable. but he's also the guy who exonerated Black Lightning with no real motive besides just helping out. he's complicated and Roy doesn't know how to react. Tim just sort of shrugs bc how do you even explain Jason Todd and well, one thing leads to another and Tim ends up in the middle of the most emotionally charged threesome he's ever been in. love the idea of Jason and Roy using Tim as a toy while they work out their feelings for each other. to me that's the peak dynamic. Jason and Roy are pissed about liking each other and somehow, Tim got roped into things. their relationship is not healthy or normal whatsoever, but somehow, they end up balancing each other out nicely.

background BruDick is also hilarious tho. bc there is no one who hates Bruce more than Oliver and he'd be so annoyed that not only did Roy get tangled up with the Bats, but now everything is so weird their families are pretty tangled together and Oliver has to deal with Bruce a lot more than he wants to. and he's glaring daggers about it the whole time.

[susanoois]

I'm going to talk here and not that anyone cares of course! I'm back in the DC fandom (not that I ever left, I just stopped following the comics and the characters I like for reasons that I was busy in other fandoms but I came to talk about updates and posts that I saw and read mainly here on tumblr and my god I have so much information.

My favorites are Batman/Bruce and Jason Todd/Red Hood, and a lot has changed about them, when I was following them comics it was still in the crisis? and the new 52 came and then a series of things happened until now. I don't even know what I'm talking about actually lfmao but it's more about Jason and his fandom and I read a lot of stuff here on tumblr and for subjects that I didn't even know were a thing, things that most people agree with or hate, in this part I was surprised that they hate things that I didn't know were a problem (due to the fact that I read the comics a long time ago, a lot of things I forgot or internalized to forget because they were bad) some things made me happy that it's not me who hates.

And about the fanon vs canon situation, it's a big problem in general about the characters and specifically about Jason, in his fandom this side tends to have long opinions about it. Personally I don't care if they like Jason fanon or Jason canon, that's the right thing I think that loving a character as he is and also as you wanted him to be in terms of headcanons is fine and I must admit that I saw the real problem that the character suffers entirely is because of the writer, that writer. yes now I understand why some things irritated me so much when I read before but I never got to see that it was because of the author in particular.

I'm not doing an analysis nor a post directed at anything in itself, but just what I read that changed my perspective, especially his relationships, which were something I never wanted to delve into further, that never lasted and I didn't like any of them, and in this part there is a big discussion about the fanon and canon. I'm not even going to mention the red hood and the outlaws in the original formation LFMAOO but I didn't hated in it moment what happened, I just wanted a change of everything of what was happening at that stage, I'm remembering how much I hated so much the new 52!!!

(i was forgetting, i hate that jason adaptation from the titans series is that a consensus? I didn't research it, but it must be, I hope) Anyway, and I also found things that left me speechless and that made me laugh a lot. Honestly, I love Jason and all his baggage, I don't have much online interaction with his fandom, only with my friends and them on like other characters more than Jason.

Finally, I just want to thank blog @dailyjasontodd who made a post about the comics (I love your work admins). When I was just starting out as a Jason fan, a lot of stuff wasn't available online, and it was a bit difficult for me to find the content, especially because of the language barrier. Now it's all easy, and that's what I like!

Funfact; I always wanted to watch the Batman: under the Red Hood cartoon, and I never found it in good quality when it was released, much less in my language and I watched it yesterday. I loved it so much this animation lives on in me (if anyone hates it, I'm sorry, but it was the only thing I didn't find anyone hating, hahaha.

and the end, I love you Jason!

[pluckyredhead]

Red Hood and the Outlaws #1 (2011)

It's been a while since I've read RHATO, so I figured I'd reread it - and if I'm doing that, why not make you all suffer with me? I will probably get tired of this before I finish all the various series, but let's see how far we get.

Roy, that would probably work better if your bow had a string.

The issue begins with Roy in a prison in Qurac for trying to overthrow a dictator. He's rescued by Jason, in disguise as a pastor in a fat suit (sigh). There's so much wrong with these opening pages: the fat suit, the writing off an entire Middle Eastern nation as evil and corrupt, the fact that there's no way even a collapsed bow would fit inside a hollowed-out bible, the lazy way the panel layouts waste space...and yet. And yet.

These pages. THESE FUCKING PAGES. "His name is Roy Harper. He's an idiot. Nice guy, but an idiot." "His name is Jason Todd. A lot of people say he's crazy...Let's just say the Red Hood is my kind of crazy!"

This kind of parallel narration always makes me think of the 2003 Superman/Batman comic, which used it extensively, to extremely (and likely unintentionally?) homoerotic effect. After I read this issue, I told a friend that I got it now: Red Hood and the Outlaws was Superman/Batman for edgelords.

Which is to say, I'm pretty sure I started shipping these assholes just from these first terrible pages.

(But seriously, there are three pages up there and only five panels. Five panels! Plus some pointless maroon boxes that don't do anything! I want my money back.)

This panel is super misleading, because it implies that Roy and Jason know each other well enough for Jason to tease Roy about being a chatterbox, but later issues will show that barely know each other at this point. But then, trying to keep the backstories straight in this or any Lobdell book is like watching sand run out between your fingers.

And again here, it implies that they were already friends, a team, partners...something. But later we'll learn that they only met once, and it was years ago, when they were kids, so...what gives?

(This page is actually interesting, because Jason is constantly saying playfully mean things to Roy and Roy never seems to mind, but here he clearly hurts Roy, and he knows it.)

Siiiiigh.

To add insult to injury, Jason immediately announces that he's fucked Kori. You'll notice I aggressively ignore this in every fic I've ever written. Part of that is because I love Secret Virgin Jason, but also it just doesn't mesh with his and Kori's relationship throughout the rest of the series or his hilarious lack of game in general, and it's also so inextricably part of Amnesiac Sex Doll Kori that I just want nothing to do with it.

HATE. HAAAAAATE. The devious smile on Jason's face in the bottom row and Roy's calculating expression are so deeply disgusting to me. "This woman can't meaningly consent! She's like a cave fish with a vagina! Sweet!" Scott Lobdell is a vile human being and so is everyone who signed off on this piece of shit. (Fun fact: this was a HUGE controversy when the New 52 launched and the outcry was so loud they walked it back in a later issue when Kori tells Roy she...just lied about all of that for no reason? Okay.)

Also, "ask her about the gang you used to hang with." Uh...what gang is that, Jason? Because Donna didn't exist at this point, Wally was 12, Garth was a literal baby, Vic joined the League immediately upon getting his powers, and Gar was a child being tortured in a lab somewhere. So was it just Roy, Dick, and Raven? And they certainly weren't the Titans, because Tim's team was the founders in this continuity...which Lobdell should have known, since he was also writing that book.

The person asking to speak to Jason is Essence, his ex, who tells him something cryptic about murder victims with missing organs.

YOU DON'T KNOW MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE EITHER, ROY!!! "Remember Garth? The baby?" (Literally, he is a baby who shows up for one panel. In Atlantis.) And who the fuck is Dustin?

Anyway, Kori propositions Roy and he's like "Sure, why not." Did the target audience actually think this was hot? It's so depressing.

Essence tells Jason that something called the Untitled has attacked something called the All Caste, and Jason makes a surprised Pikachu face.

Elsewhere, a guy in a basement looks at a picture of Kori online.

I will admit to liking two things about this page: the fact that Jason's helmet is in the nightstand implies that Roy and Kori fucked in Jason's bed, which is either hilariously rude or an invitation that sailed right over Jason's head, and the red hand print on Roy's chest. It's the first glimpse of a recognizable Roy in this book; he did always like getting manhandled by scarily powerful women, pre-Flashpoint.

Jason goes...somewhere, to a temple of sorts with a lot of vague cultural appropriation going on, and kneels over the corpse of an old lady. "I'm sorry I wasn't here for you, Ducra," he says, before a bunch of people attack him. END OF ISSUE!

And that's Red Hood and the Outlaws #1! It's confusing, misogynistic, lazily drawn, and not very funny, and there's no reason to be invested in whatever the fuck happened at the end because I know nothing about Ducra, Essence, the All Caste, or frankly, this version of Jason. And yet I am absolutely going to read nine more years' worth of this shit. See you in issue #2!

[laufire]

it's very funny (read: not funny) how after the new 52 reboot, dc altered two of my favourite first meetings (you know how much I care about first meetings) in a very similar war.

first you have batman incorporated vol. 2 #2, that more or less reproduced the first meeting between bruce and talia in detective comics #411 in a few flashbacks (league dude fighting it off with ra's kidnaps talia, bruce is fighting it off with him and ends up wounded and in her medical care, etc. the flashback doesn't include the very best part of the first meeting, at the end of the story, so: read 'tec #411 it's great. there's a facsimile reprint coming on march if you think you'll be into it). but then... makes it as if that meeting, and talia falling for bruce during it, was all orchestrated by ra's.

then you have red hood and the outlaws vol. 1 #0. its first sin is that it changes bruce and jason's first meeting completely: instead of occurring on the anniversary of the death of bruce's parents, involving a kid showing the gumption to steal the batmobile's tires and making bruce laugh in such a momentous anniversary... it's just batman catching jason as he tries to steal some prescription drugs (not even for his now presumed dead mother) from leslie's clinic. then it commits the BIGGEST sin of saying this was all... orchestrated by the joker, who one day saw jason and decided to manipulate his whole life (taking dad away, faking mom's death, putting him outside the clinic) to make him, somehow, become batman's sidekick.

in the first case, I don't mind it as much, if only when compared to the other. it annoys me that talia's feelings are rewritten as the result of manipulation, but a.) ra's is a mastermind type, so they're not just elevating his character for no reason, and b.) given this is the very comic that made talia a rapist, I'm gonna pick my battles. plus I only recently read 'tec #411 so as much as I love it, it's not part of my Psyche the same way batman #408 is lol.

but the second one profoundly aggravates me lmfao. first, because of just how much I love their new earth meeting!! lobdell's version focuses on what a lot of writers afterwards have tried to use to smear jason's name, aka, "he's just some juvenile delinquent". he's also made jason part of a gang, when new earth!jason clearly had very clear lines about what he was willing to do (boost what he needed to survive) and what he wasn't (becoming "a crook", joining ma gunn's gang).

and like... to be blunt, in no logical universe seeing some rando steal from a clinic would make bruce up and make him robin. it's the sequence of "shameless enough to go for the batmobile" + feisty against bruce + "ready to prevent crime on his own when it looked like batman wasn't going to" that did it. of course making any random kid robin wouldn't be logical anyway lol, and bruce's own loneliness was the deep motivating factor... but one of this versions make jason distinctive, someone who WOULD trigger bruce's baby robin fever. and the other is generic and makes me feel pretty sceptical about the whole thing.

and that's not even getting into the joker's supposed role in all this because FUCK THAT. good GOD do I hate the idea that the freaking joker is some super genius mastermind playing five dimensional chess with the bats and orchestrating events years in advance. my first story really reading joker was aditf. the guy beats robin to near death (which he manages thanks to the element surprise, deceit, and having goons help him), blows him up to hide the evidence because he's scared of what batman would do to him, then immediately admits he killed robin to taunt batman the next time he sees him. I can't ever buy him as anything other than a coward dumber than a bag of rocks that just Does Random Shit to people who can't fight back because he's a sadist, and gets away with it because unlike the people he faces, he has not an ounce of sense or morals or apprehension that could stop him. I'm not gonna lie and say I've ever enjoyed the joker as a character (I think he's trite and uninventive and his utter lack of inner life bores me), but this turn has made him completely unbearable, and his continuing survival all the more inexplicable the more dangerous he gets.

tl;dr the new 52 tried to fix a lot of shit that wasn't broken but these two examples make me want to ask for financial compensation.

[alicepooryorick]

hey there! you recently reblogged one of my posts with a question about roy’s character (the op is fishfission-dc, this acc is my main.) i just wanted to let you know that the account you asked (elioherondale) is someone who goes around tumblr harassing anyone that draws or writes jason and roy together, with the characterization of the New 52 (2011-2016ish) run of their comics. (and I do say in the original tags that it’s specifically about this run!) So if you get a hateful or strange answer from them I just wanted to warn you :)

But if you wanted my answer to your question about how Roy is characterized differently, you can read this monstrous essay below.

In the older comics he’s more of a serious “asshole” who’s a ride or die for his teammates and daughter. (The new Green Arrow is a little more like this Roy, I know you said you’ve been into that recently :) ) He had an era in like the 80’s or smth where the writers gave him alcohol and heroin addictions, where Oliver was super unsupportive for a while, it was a whole thing. But Lian and his teammates and eventually Oliver helped him back to being a standup guy and the comics just stopped mentioning the addictions. When the DC universe was jumbled with the New 52 2011, he was a member of the Outlaws in Red Hood and the Outlaws and then when Kori left the series Red Hood / Arsenal followed just him and Jason. These series made him more goofy, the funny man to Jason’s callousness. But Roy would still kick it into gear and be serious as hell when needed, and he was competent, intelligent, all that jazz that’s true to his character. He just makes jokes now and actually tells his friends that he loves them.

this era also brings back the concept of Roy being an addict, which writers tries to shove under the rug for a while after the edgy 80’s arc that created it. Elioherondale and his jayroy harassment goons like to say that the New 52 comics “regressed Roy to being an addict” or that his friendship with Jason did it, but that’s not true!! In the New 52 he’s not actively using, he’s been clean for a long time, it just addresses the fact that heavy addictions aren’t something you can just get over and forget about. You struggle with them for the rest of your life. It’s a super serious topic and I think this contributed to why they made Roy more lighthearted and silly outwardly, because they focused so heavily on this inner struggle he has, and had a lot of serious moments around it.

the characterization in the New 52 comics also implies to change Jason’s and Roy’s ages to be more similar, making them “best friends” and “partners” whereas in the old comics Roy would’ve been probably 6ish years older than Jason, and would have met him at least 18 years old when Jason was 13. There is also so much romantic implication and just general good friendship and loyalty and all that good stuff in this era, even if the writing might suck at times (often).

so anyway, I love the characterization in this goofy little New 52 comic era of Roy and Jason but it makes Roy have a funny disaster personality and reintroduces the idea that someone with a heavy addiction can’t just get rid of that. so sorry this was so long, I just wanted to give you a more objective take on the question!!

The squeal of joy I let out when you said this was along message. Thank you so much for taking the time to give me such a thought out response!

Also thanks for the warning, I just got a notification that they rb'd my question. It felt like this kinda situation but i also wondered if this was a Barbara Gordon situation, as I am a batfan. So it's not inconceivable that Roy got a similar n52 treatment as Barbara did.

I own like... one issue of the n52 redhood // Arsenal run. #9 I believe. I love Jason and Duela's relationship in the book.

But again, thank you for this message it was so fun reading through that, the new green arrow run is my first time reading a green arrow run and it's easily one of my top 5 along with Wonder Woman.

Hope you have a great day bestie!

[stxleslyds]

Yes but only in the recent Infinite Frontier era that DC is going through, before? Not so much. Stephanie wasn't around when Jason was first introduced and in his *actual* comeback to the land of the living in Under the Red Hood they also didn't interact. Jason's comic appearances after UtRH and 2009 were scarce and as far as I remember (I am a bit rusty on Jason lore) they didn't interact over there. From 2009 to 2011 it gets difficult because he was usually involved in all of these "Bat-Family" and universe-hopping things but it still doesn't ring a bell that they shared panels. After 2011 there was some "panel sharing" between the two, if it meant that you could put them in a room with Dick and throw a lil hate towards him. This era was full of the most boring and never-ending "Bat-Family" arcs so I would say that they did exchange some words over there. From that era I remember specifically Batman and Robin Eternal #4 in which Jason and Stephanie argue. Rebirth had some insufferable "Bat-Family" arcs that sometimes included Stephanie but I wouldn't quite say that they crossed paths in them either. Most if not all of their interactions come from the last DC Comics era and most of them were written by Matthew Rosenberg who sadly took on one of DC's classic tactics of "don't show, just randomly tell" and one day decided that Jason and Stephanie were besties (I don't quite remember but I think it was Task Force Z #9) and now in this weird Joker book.

OH, Stephanie never appeared in a Jason-solo book (Red Hood and the Outlaws) in either New 52 or Rebirth so there is also that.

have jason todd and stephanie brown ever actually had a one on one conversation in the comics

[lacrimosathedark]

You know something I find annoying?

"[Insert comic book character] is so out of character in [Elseworld material]!"

You realize that no comic book character has consistent characterization, right? Like, in mainline comics?

Do you realize how many different writers comics have had? Writers for the same character who sometimes didn't read their history or straight up hate them for no reason and ruin them?

Like, people will wholly recognize Kory's "ooc-ness" in Red Hood and the Outlaws, or that Heroes In Crisis was "ooc" for Wally West and ignored it or made their own fixes (before DC backpedalled from the sheer backlash) but won't do the same for other characters.

My specialty being the Batfamily, I know people ignore some comics.

Bruce Wayne has canonically been both emotionally constipated to the point of not telling his children he loves them, but has also at times been very blunt about it because it's a fact.

Bruce also has, at times, hit his children. I personally ignore most of these instances.

Dick Grayson is overall been written as a kind and compassionate, if sometimes angry, person. Yet there's the canon history of him telling Babs "Don't make me regret having elevators put in this building" and sleeping with her to tell her he was marrying someone else.

Dick has a history of both being seemingly demisexual and also being slut-shamed.

Jason's personality has been thrown every which way and has too many times been given to writers who hated him. His character lacks consistency to the point where most people ignore his characterization outside of Under the Hood because it was huge for his character. Like, Battle For the Cowl was horrible; he was basically made a psychopath purely for the drama.

Tim's behavior, and the "Teen Titans" as a whole was so bad in the New 52 that it's overall ignored and/or retconned. One example I can think of is when Tim apparently slept with Cassie and also Solstice (who was seeing Bart, though this is Bar Torr not precious bean Bart Allen but still) despite Tim historically both being faithful despite being repeatedly accused otherwise and also being hesitant about sex. This was bad enough that it was retconned he was possessed by Trigon.

Stephanie is a mixed bag, in part because early misogyny but yknow.

Do I need to talk about Cass? There's a whole area about her turning against her core "Don't kill" tenent and becoming an assassin and trying to lure Tim to her side and kill him when he refused. This had to be retconned that she was drugged and manipulated by Deathstroke if I'm remembering right.

Outside the Batfam: remember when Clark fucking Kent had a machine that turned people black for Some Reason and Lois used it? And then asked Superman if he would love her even I she never changed back and he dodged the question?

Like...comics aren't like books where there's one consistent writer, or a TV or movie where there's a semi-consistent board of writers. These people change throughout this large history of these characters. Some of them are going to make mistakes. Some of them are going to be assholes who don't respect the characters.

Like, yes, complain when they are written very wrong so DC can know, but understand that "in-character" can be very loosely interpreted.

[stxleslyds]

Also, the writers' failure to understand, every crime Jason committed had a motive. Attack other criminals? Holy warrior destined to purify the world of evil. Attack Bruce? Joker's still alive. (Oh, Jason, it's much worse than that.) Attack Tim? A parody of what he once was. He wasn't just a "bad boy". He was dangerously insane.

Hi, Anon! Yup, there seems to be a lot of things that writers have gotten confused about Jason Todd/Red Hood and the biggest one is his motivations to kill certain criminals.

Let’s be honest, Judd Winick set a golden path for the upcoming Red Hood writers. But each and every writer that used Red Hood in their stories completely missed the point of Jason’s character. All of them. It’s so incredibly wild to me that every other writer read UtRH and came up with whichever version of Jason they came up with.

Let’s list the writers that completely missed the point.

Geoff Johns in Teen Titans vol.3 #29.

Geoff Johns was one of the first to completely mischaracterize Jason, why on earth would Jason go to the Titans Tower to beat up Tim? This is not me saying that Jason would never do that because Jason thinks of Tim as his brother or a friend or the person that he can trust the most from the Bat-Clan (can you believe Lobdell tried to sell us that one?), this is me saying that Jason wouldn’t have done that because he couldn’t have given less of a fuck about Tim’s existence.

When Jason found out that Bruce had another Robin he wasn’t bothered by his “replacement” he was mad at Bruce for having another child playing hero after he lost his life as a fifteen-year-old. Jason didn’t even think of Tim as his replacement as fandom likes to make us believe, Jason called Tim “pretender”. And that was that, but to go from minimal recognition to go out of his way to beat him up at Titans Tower is a massive mischaracterization.

Paul Dini in Countdown (to Final Crisis).

Paul Dini in Countdown did absolutely nothing with Jason, I am sorry but that’s all he did. Him writing Jason was like watching a dog trying to catch their own tail. He started with a pretty basic take on UtRH Jason, then he added a bit of Jason being an annoying man with Donna, then we had the jealousy arc because apparently, Jason had the hots for Donna but she didn’t want anything to do with him and he was all angsty when she paid attention to Kyle instead of him, and then, later on, he had that whole Red Robin bullshit (I am sorry about this, but I absolutely hated that, it was so dumb, I am so glad it didn’t last long because it was just too bad), and after all that mix of just not interesting stuff he went right back to the Jason that he had at the very start. It was a waste of time, but I guess that he had to be there because he was an anomaly and all that. I just think that was DC’s first try at making Jason Todd/Red Hood something more than just a street-level vigilante and they failed miserably.

Tony S. Daniel in Batman: Battle for the Cowl.

Even though the first two did make mistakes with Jason’s characterizations, this man was the first to just throw UtRH out of the window and make up his very own version of Jason Todd. And his version was horrendous, that Jason had no problem with attempting to kill children and innocent people, he also really wanted to be Batman because Gotham needed a Batman and he wanted to be the person to wear the Cowl and he was looking for a Robin for himself.

I know, the whole concept is the perfect opposite of what Jason Todd and Red Hood were in UtRH. Every aspect of BftC Jason is based on nothing.

Jason wanting to be Batman because Gotham needed Batman is just the beginning of what’s wrong in this book. Jason became the Red Hood (in part) because he believed that Batman and his ways weren’t what Gotham needed so he made a better version of Batman with Red Hood (according to him) because Red Hood did what Batman refused to do. Another thing that is just wrong is Jason wanting, Damian, Tim or Dick to be his Robin, there is just so much wrong with this, first of all, Jason wanted Batman to stop having Robin because child soldiers ran the risk of dying at a very young age and that’s exactly how he saw the whole thing because that was what had happened to him. Second, if Jason was mad at Bruce for getting another Robin why would he now want one of his own to team up with his Batman? Damian was a child, Tim was someone that apparently Jason hated (because Jason beating Tim was mentioned in this event), and then Jason actually asked Dick Grayson, Nightwing, to be his Robin? Listen, there is no way that was Jason, nothing about him makes sense, even taking into account that Jason had beaten Tim already in this event Jason actually tried to kill both Tim and Damian (it might have been just one of them but yeah, it still doesn’t make sense).

I just don’t think that Tony S. Daniel knew who Jason Todd was, maybe he got confused but the thing is, his “villainous” and deranged version of Jason Todd allowed a villainous and deranged version of Red Hood to happen with the next writer that I will be talking about.

Grant Morrison in Batman and Robin vol.1 #3-6.

This was the birth of the villainous, deranged and bloodthirsty Red Hood. There is absolutely no trace of UtRH Jason here, not even if we are looking at the opposite of things like we could do with Daniel’s Jason. Grant Morrison wanted Dick and Damian to have a villain to match their Batman and Robin and they decided to give us a red-haired-pill-headed-red hood. Everything from Morrison’s characterization of Jason is crazy, from the red hair (hello pre-crisis) to the awful Joker’s Red Hood looking suit, everything was just weird.

I still don’t believe that was Jason, to be honest, I would rather think that version of Jason was actually a rouge Skrull that came all the way from the Marvel Universe and lost his way in Gotham City. Maybe when he made the jump between universes, he got too much information and got confused and took the form of the wonkiest Jason Todd he could come up with.

This Jason was absolutely deranged, he knew exactly what he was doing and he didn’t care if innocents died. This Jason was the one that got locked up in Arkham. This is the Jason that Dick put in Arkham for Jason and everybody else’s safety.

Dick putting that Jason in Arkham wasn’t a bad thing or something that anyone can use to shit on Dick Grayson (not on this house). This Arkham was reformed and that Jason knew that if he stayed in that new Arkham he would stay away from trouble, but here is the thing, that Jason loved trouble, so he took all the tests to prove he wasn’t insane and asked to be transferred to Blackgate (where all the Red Hood’s enemies were). That Jason didn’t ask to be sent to Blackgate because the Joker was a cell away from his in Arkham, he did it so he could go on a killing spree in Blackgate (which he did when he got there).

Skrull Jason was just bloodthirsty and nothing like UtRH Jason, he had no motive other than just killing for fun or whatever. He didn’t want to protect Gotham and he couldn’t have cared less about the drug trade in Gotham. In Batman and Robin vol.1. Jason Todd was unrecognizable. And luckily, we never saw him again.

Scott Lobdell in Everything that he ever wrote about Red Hood.

This one is pretty self-explanatory. Lobdell was the king of overpowering Jason, he was the one that drove Red Hood farther and farther away from his street-level vigilante status. He continuously added more to him, he was a big deal because he was meant to take down Ra’s al Ghul, he was a big deal because he was the only human to train in the All-Castle and learned to summon the All-Blades.

This Red Hood’s morals and ideals were kind of gone, there just wasn’t any kind of interest in Jason to get rid of drugs or try to control its trade in Gotham, he just had no interest in street-level threats, everything was extraordinary in both New 52 and Rebirth. If he wasn’t in space he was in some mystical land. His friends and allies became even more and more powerful, his level of power was completely off compared to the others. His personality was ever-changing and quite honestly you could barely see the Jason that he once was.

This Jason also was very inconsistent in the way that he felt towards people (obviously because Lobdell is a shitty writer), he wanted to follow Batman’s rules and was shown as someone that still had fond memories of his life with Bruce before he died but was also willing to let those memories go, to move on? Maybe? I don’t know. But he changed his mind about Bruce and following his rules or not for a very long time. Jason was also a little bitch about Dick, and he was a little bitch because he (Lobdell) never gave the reader or anyone a concrete reason as to why he hated him so much and then in Rebirth he decided that Dick wasn’t that bad. Also, Jason went from “Willis Todd, abusive husband and father that deserved to die” to “Willis Todd abusive husband and father but he sent me letters when he was in prison and Penguin had him killed so now, I really want to avenge him”. Yeah, I don’t really know why that happened and like most of Lobdell’s arcs and stuff it was never really completed or well thought out.

Lobdell’s Jason characterization was a mess for ten years and that’s the prime reason why Jason is a character with no solid background, story or future.

James Tynion IV in Red Hood and the Outlaws.

Tynion’s Jason Todd was a hero, he was like a mini Tom King Batman. Everything he did was right and there was just no way that you could bamboozle him. This Jason was able to hold to Blades that drained his soul as well as hosting the Untitled in his body (that were able to drain his soul too) and on top of all that he completed his journey of the Chosen One by making those ancient martial arts moves that he learned before he was Robin even though Talia hadn’t been able to master it yet.

Scott Snyder, Tim Seeley in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal.

A mess, this was pure New 52 levels of bullshit and they all just wanted to push the “Batfamily” and while Dick was gone, they were trying to make Jason fill the void that Dick left in Batman events. It didn’t work at all and all they did was mess around with Jason’s characterization more.

Geoff Johns in Three Jokers.

I have talked enough about Johns’ takes on Jason Todd and Red Hood, but let me tell you something real quick, if a writer thinks that the best they can do with a character is make them give up their morals/ideals for an unrequited love interest, then they can keep that idea for themselves. Geoff Johns wrote a book that was absolutely not needed and then proceeded to butcher every characterization that he could, Three Jokers was three issues long and he managed to add more trauma to Jason’s torture, push the narrative of Jason being at fault for his own murder and make Jason’s motivations to be the Red Hood weak enough to make him want to give up his work for a woman that he barely knows (and doesn’t like him at all).

Joshua Williamson in Future State: Red Hood and Robin #5.

Now, with Williamson I have issues only when he writes Jason, not because his stories are bad, don’t get me wrong, I would have completely enjoyed FS: Red Hood if it weren’t for the completely unnecessary Rose/Jason side plot he had going on. Jason was clearly working undercover for some people that he hated working with. He had to arrest or kill “masks” (vigilantes, just like he “used” to be) for the Magistrate.

His ideas were pretty solid, Jason did the job but he never killed the masks and actively didn’t trust the Magistrate but he was working there to tear them apart from within, and that’s amazing if Williamson had given us Jason Todd/Red Hood working undercover to dismantle an organization I would have been really happy.

But that’s not all he gave us, even if I just forget about his failed attempt at giving Jason a relationship, I can still see that Williamson is the kind of writer that wants (or is just following DC) to make the “Batfamily” happen no matter how dumb and out of place it looks in comics’ canon. So, I am a little bit weary, any writer that leans too much towards making Jason and Bruce work together and become a family makes me want to scream, but I do understand that is just me, many people want those two to be buddy-buddy, I, personally, would love to see Jason kick Bruce in the balls and tell him to lose his number.

Chip Zdarsky in Urban Legends: Cheer.

Ah, yes, I remember the days in which I thought that this could have been something good. Well, I was utterly wrong and I suffered all the way through this mini. I feel like now I can safely say that Zdarsky only wanted to write a Batman book but DC told him, “Hey you can write Batman but it has to be within a Red Hood story, but don’t worry, you don’t have to know much about the Hood guy, just come up with something and write Batman around that”.

I know that’s what happened because I read that story and all we got from it was horrible characterizations for pre-Robin Jason, Robin Jason, Jason Todd and Red Hood. I don’t know how he did it but yes, he managed to mess it all up.

From Jason not really wanting to be Robin and acting recklessly every step of the way, to secret desires of a perfect family with Bruce and so many other people that he couldn’t care about, Urban Legends: Cheer is the perfect book to avoid at all costs if you believe that the concept of “Batfamily” is the biggest lie, DC is trying to profit off this time around.

Zdarsky also nerfed Jason in ways that I thought DC only wanted to nerf Dick Grayson. But I was able to see that I was wrong. Zdarsky’s run also pushed some of the most disastrous narratives that DC really wants readers to believe like: Robin Jason wasn’t good at his job, he was too reckless and ultimately his death was his own fault. Yay! I want to cry!

I will give Zdarsky two points for at the very least showing that Red Hood wants to protect children and that he has a huge issue with how the drug trade is controlled and abused in Gotham City, it had been a while since we had seen that aspect of Jason’s Red Hood make an appearance.

-

It’s just too many writers completely missing the point of Red Hood’s character or simply writers agreeing to destroy Jason’s uniqueness in the DC Universe so DC (as the publisher) can further push the abomination that is the “Batfamily” in comics’ canon.

I do agree with you Anon when you say that Jason isn’t just a “bad boy” but I also don’t think that we can call UtRH Jason “dangerously insane”. Personally, I will only use that last description for BftC and Batman and Robin Jason, those two were dangerously insane indeed.

UtRH Jason was very meticulous in who he wanted dead and who got to live. He entered Gotham’s most dangerous world and he had to make a big entrance, he invited the eight most prosperous street dealers to a meeting, showed up with the decapitated heads of each of their right-hand men and an AK-47 and said:

“I am offering you a deal. I will be running the drug trade from now on. You will go about your business as usual. You will kick up forty percent to me. That is a much better deal than the Black Mask will give you. In return, you will have total protection from both the Black Mask and Batman. The catch? You stay away from kids and schoolyards. No dealing to children, got it? If you do, you’re dead.”

This was Red Hood! Red Hood wanted to control the drug trade in Gotham because he knew that Gotham is far too corrupt and filled with drug lords for him to just want to eradicate drugs from Gotham. If he had tried that he would have been a dumbass, but he wasn’t. He didn’t want to start a gang war and get innocent people killed because of it, he wanted to set the rules of his new Empire and he had to start with the street-level drug dealers, from there he grew until he became a major pain in Black Mask’s ass.

We went from Jason wanting to control the drug trade and take over Gotham’s underworld so people like Black mask couldn’t have people work for him (or being dependent on him) when they were still in high school or were in a vulnerable position, to Jason fighting a war for a mystic land because he was their “Chosen One”. DC really wanted to do something grand (yet boring) with Jason instead of sticking to a street-level vigilante that could have become a Drug Lord to control the drug trade of a city that is so filled with crime and corruption that it can’t be saved by anyone.

Batman doesn’t eradicate crime, he “controls” it, puts a blank it over it, lets it nap up until it wakes up once more to make more mess.

Red Hood had other plans, certain criminals didn’t get to nap, or, better said, they would get to nap forever.

So, no. I wouldn’t call that “dangerously insane”, I will call that “vigilante that believes himself judge, jury and executioner” of a city that is drowning in crime and corruption.

Anyway, I hope you have a really nice week Anon and thank you so much for sending me this ask!

[strunmah-mah]

I hate comic books, I love comic properties, but I hate comic books.

Comic properties have such wonderful creative potential. These are properties that are willing to just go there and be weird and be themselves push boundaries, ya know. But the comics they’re based on can be such a slog to get through.

I grew up on TMNT (2003). I adore that version of the turtles. When I got older I decided to branch out and try reading the IDW run of the  Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles. I was four issues in when they had a foot not in one of the panels *Want to know what these characters are talking about? Go read the Donatello Miniseries! It was a brand new continuity, what do you mean I already have to do homework for it by issue 4? I dropped it on the spot. If I had missed that what else could I have missed? I don’t enjoy doing homework for my hobbies.

When the MCU started to get big. I was one of many who became a Loki fangirl. And about that same time Marvel decided to do a Loki solo series. Loki: Agent of Asgard. It was good and I loved it. But around that time Marvel also did a continuity reboot, where they merged their main (616) universe with the Ultimates continuity that way the publishers only had to make stories for one universe and everything was supposed to be staring from scratch as an easy jump in point for new readers. Except some characters were to be able to remember their old universes and Loki was supposed to be one of them.

This confused me. Why would do a continuity reset but have select characters remember? As a reader, how were you supposed to know which characters did or did not remember their old universe. It was weird, but I rolled with it. Loki had just undergone massive character arc and I was glad he wasn’t getting erased. He was also dragging his new best friend, Verity Willis (a character original to his solo run and one of the best things about it) into the new universe with him. So I picked up The Might Thor #1, the next series Loki was supposed to appear in, and started reading.

It sucked. Despite the reset the new Thor run started right where the previous run had left off. In the middle of political shenanigans with characters I had never heard of before. I had no idea what was happening, but I hung on for Loki. In Loki’s solo run he had become something of a neutral figure verging on heroic with some new powers to boot. And I was curious to see how he would team up with Jane Foster as Thor. So imagine my immense disappointment when Loki showed up as a full blown villain. All of his character development gone, Verity Willis erased. But they kept his final look from his solo run and some of his new powers. It felt like a betrayal and I dropped the run.

I enjoyed the movie Batman: Under The Red Hood. I got attached to Jason Todd, So I wanted to read his solo runs. Lost Days was very good, Talia as a mentor figure to Jason was great, right until the last issue where the characters went fro mother/son to jumping into bed together. It was weird gross and uncomfortable. So I picked up Red Hood and the Outlaws the new 52 run. That teamup felt like someone picked a bunch of names out of a hat and said “let’s right about them.” I couldn’t figure out why they stuck together as a team when at least one of them ways always running off and doming something on their own. A Jason Todd who says you shouldn’t murder child traffickers and slavers in not my Jason Todd.  And there was something wildly wrong with Starfire’s character too. Some of those issues were physically exhausting to get through.

Again and again this happens. Christopher Nolan’s batman trilogy? Great! Wayne family Adventures? Awesome! Batman titled comic runs be it solo or team up. Batman the character is the worst part of those.

My sister and I watched Transformers Prime together It was our bonding activity for a while. She decided she wanted to read some of the Transformer Comics too. Except the series she picked and liked kept changing it’s title at random and she couldn’t keep track of what issue to buy.

How come comic based cartoons and movies can be so good? But the comics they are based on can be such pains?

[scorpionyx9621]

While the art is left to be desired (i'm hope i use this ohrase right, my english is awful). I suprised that i found future state!Jason to be more enjoyable than Urban Legend one. Like he's way more capable there and [spoiler alert] also Bruce depend on him and still call him son? So you can have a bad ass Jason and good son jason at the same time.

So I need to apologize because this turned into a rant about Jason's characterization as whole and MAN is it long-winded and I'm sorry.

I have to agree. I really like the characterization Future State/Dark Detective is going for with Jason.

Jason is still the typical Jason we've grown to expect. Cold, cynical, snarky, willing to cross the dark red line and kill if need be, but he's still shown to have emotions. When he's betraying the family it's vocalized by Jason that he's upset about the situation. He doesn't want to, but he must for the mission Bruce put him under.

Truth be told, I'm not fully caught up on Future State/Dark Detective. I've kind of been reading spoilers and just getting the general gist in the periphery from people like you on Tumblr. I've been more focused on Urban Legends, which, while I will say I still don't hate the story, hell we still have two issues left of Cheer, and I by no means think Chip Zdarsky is a bad writer by any means. His characterization of Jason irks me.

*God I was so on the fence about Eddy Barrow's take on Jason until Issue #3. That right there? THAT. That's a handsome ass man Maurry*

ANYWAYS: I'm irked by Zdarsky's take on Jason just because of how hot headed and brash Jason is. Now don't get me wrong, every main writer for Jason has taken a bit of a different spin and while the big characters who have written Jason (Judd Winnick, Scott Lobdell, Tony Daniel) and while Zdarsky seems to be what I'm hoping to be a bit of a medication of Jason & Bruce's relationship. He's doing it at the expendature of Jason's characterization of being a damn near criminal mastermind.

If we focus on Winnick and Daniel's interpretation of Jason (Winnick wrote the original Under the Hood & Lost Days. Daniels wrote Battle for the Cowl) as well as all Pre-New 52 versions of Jason. Jason is a monster. Like genuinely a horrible human being. He still fights for right moral side (he kills mostly child abusers/drug traffickers and the likes) but this Jason is genuinely unhinged and while smart, he's absolutely monster. Hell, in Battle for the Cowl after hearing Bruce's final words, he has a villainous breakdown. Dresses as batman, and starts killing people. Judd Winnick himself said he sees Jason as a 'Psychopath' and there are a lot of very vocal people who say Winnick's original interpretation of Jason as a violent, misanthropic villain is the superior version and that Jason should return to this.

*I love to point out that I made a post on my alt account questioning Jason's age in this issue. Turns out he's Like SEVENTEEN. I get why they draw him older and more mature because of his darker/more villainous tendencies. But there's something kind of True Crime Podcast host fascination I have with this greasy, crusty, 17 year old who just casually kills 30 mobsters in horrific gun violence and calls it a day.*

Then we have the New 52. And in comes Red Hood & The Outlaws + the eventual Red Hood: Outlaw series. Piloted by the one Scott Lobdell. Now I know a lot of people dislike Lobdell for his takes on certain characters, his all-over-the-place writing style. (Let's not forget his allegations of SA and the fact that he openly admits that he wrote Jason as a self-insert for a 'bad guy seeking redemption') this was my first comic experience with Jason and to be honest, I can't bring myself to hate it. Sure there's some parts that literally show how much of a dumpster fire Lobdell's writing can become, but for the most part I genuinely liked the characterization of Jason that Lobdell gives. Jason may be a bit more reactionary and just kind of making shit up as he goes along, but he's far from dumb. The intro to the series has Jason sneaking into a terrorist run nuclear sub and killing everyone inside.

Again: Lobdell's writing is all of the place. But I do like that his take on Jason is a bit more subdued. I know in the New 52 they wanted to make Jason an Anti-Hero. Someone who very much still driven by emotion and revenge. But he's definetly more relaxed and even has a lot of fun. Intelligence wise he has is moments, but it does emphasize that while he may be the best read Robin, he does have a tendency to leap before he looks. Also all the art for RHATO with the exception of a few series were TOP TIER. I understand why they hired artists like Kenneth Rocafort and Dexter Soy to rehabilitate his image. I mean, come on.

Now if we're talking about Jason's intelligence, I'd be absolutely remiss if I didn't discuss Red Hood: Outlaw and the Price of Gotham Arc. Specifically this exchange between Bruce & Jason. To me, this is the single best part of Lobdell's run and shows Jason's true intelligence.

To give a rundown: After Bruce banished Jason from Gotham after seemingly killing the Penguin. Bruce proceeded to find Jason and literally beat him to within an inch of his life. It took MONTHS for Jason to recover. A lot happens but mostly Jason finds out (from Bruce no less) that Penguin is still alive. Jason hatches a devious plan. He takes over the iceberg lounge, kidnaps and holds Penguin hostage. Publically outs himself as Jason Todd, the dead ward of Bruce Wayne, as alive and well, and the new owner of the Iceberg Lounge.

When Bruce finds out he's clearly pissed and goes to confront Jason because he's banished him from Gotham. But because Jason outed himself as alive and one of Bruce's sons. Batman can do NOTHING. Jason has Bruce by the balls. If Bruce does anything to Jason while he's out and alive as Jason, all Jason has to do is tell the truth. And the whole Batman jig is up in an instant. And Bruce? After these panels? He runs off with his tail between his leg because he can't touch Jason. And all Jason did was capture penguin, and come out as alive. THIS is the Jason that I love. This is the Jason that strikes fear into people's hearts.

I think a lot of the general complaints we see about Jason as a whole is just how inconsistent he is with his writing. Which I agree. It's hard to characterize Jason well when there's been a character like Lobdell who was at the Helm of Jason's character for 10 years and then forced to leave. And I don't really know if DC has any really solid plans for his character and development. There's a lot of hype surrounding the end of Cheer and them saying it'll 'change Red Hood & Batman's relationship forever' as well as with Jason being featured in the new Suicide Squad coming this August, and Jason getting a feature in an issue of Robin. It'll be interesting to see where they take the character. Personally I do want a resumption of Jason. But like Harley Quinn where they're taking their sweet time redeeming her. Jason has done A LOT of awful things and of they wanna make him a hero, I want a few years to pass in terms of monthly issues before we see Jason become a hero again.

*edit: spelling*

[necrotic-nephilim]

Any ships you don’t like in the batfam fandom that is popular?

OOOH this is such a fun question because I have quite a few

StephCass - i'll be honest this is one of those ships where the fandom ruined it for me. because 2000s StephCass is an elite dynamic, they care for each other so deeply. but the fandom has been intent on defanging and purifying this ship. i don't know *why* but StephCass seems most popular with the anti-Batcest crowd who get very mad if you compare it to ships they deem Batcest. i have an entire meta commentary on this in my drafts I'll likely never post discussing why the only reason StephCass gets the pass for not being Batcest ties directly into misogyny (because the women of the Batfam need to exist as love interests first, not family members so Steph was never going to truly get to exist as a "full" Batfam member so long as she could remain a viable love interest for Tim, and the same can apply to Babs, Helena, and even Cass in some cases) and that just sours me to it. like if i want yuri in Batfam i think there are far more interesting/fucked up ships for Steph like Babs/Steph or Helena/Steph. and when it comes to what i'd actually like to see in canon, i don't want to see Steph relegated to love interest of a Batfamily member, even if it's queer. let her date and exist outside of Gotham the way every other Batfam member gets to, DC *please*.

Bruce/Selina - i can't fully articulate why this ship isn't my thing, it just isn't. i think i just can't conceivably agree with Selina letting go of so many of her fundamental morals and beliefs for the sake of a man, even one she loves such as Bruce. ironically, i think that's one of the few things Gotham War got right about these two. the only canon love interest i like for Bruce is Zatanna and i mourn we'll never get much of that.

JayRoy - i will admit when i was newer to DC the first comics i picked up for Jason were all New-52 and i shipped this. but now that i'm a pre-Flashpoint truther and i've actually read well-written Roy Harper comics, i only see the flaws in this ship. ngl if ppl were actually fun and interesting with it, playing with the idea of Roy knowing Jason as Robin and still seeing him as just Dick's little brother who's gone a little mental, it *could* be fun. but this Red Hood & the Outlaws (2011) and Red Hood/Arsenal (2015) dynamic *butchers* the fuck out of Roy and strips him of everything interesting. and even as a Batfamily stan, my number one pet peeve is when other DC characters get *butchered* in a Batfamily character's book just for the sake of propping up the Bat as some kind of savior. free Roy Harper from this mans.

Bruce/Oliver - we could be here all day if i listed all the Bruce ships i don't like, but i figure this one has to be included. because oh my god either the people shipping this *really* don't understand Oliver Queen or they just hate his ass because why would you subject Oliver to this man. he can't *stand* Bruce. i really hate the popular BruOliie shipping dynamic of like "oh they were boarding school besties" because if you want that, you *should* like Bruce/Zatanna, not these two. Oliver just always gets butchered in these fics and i won't stand for it.

Tim/Bernard - the ESSAYS i could write on this ship and why i dislike it. the fucking *fear* DC (and most popular media tbh) has with depicting queer relationships as anything other than totally perfect and cute for fear of accusations of homophobia has stripped this ship of *any* real grit. Bernard is a non-character in Tim Drake: Robin, he exists to cheer Tim on and prop him up and just be The Boyfriend. we occasionally get glimpses of an interesting character with really interesting trauma and nothing is *done* with it bc at the end of the day, Tim and Bernard must be perfect and cute. what's fun about Tim is he is the *worst* boyfriend alive. that boy is *ass* at dating. all of his relationships are rich with conflict and yet the moment he dates a guy suddenly all of his flaws vanish? i hate it. i mourn what this could've been if we kept messy Tim Drake and had a Bernard who was actually informed by his trauma. DC please let gays be messy again. also of all of Tim's 90s/00s friends to bring back as a love interest, Bernard Dowd was just a *bizarre* fucking choice. Sebastian Ives was *right* there come on now.

Any Crossover Ship - look if crossovers are your cup of tea i'm happy for you but oh my god if i have to see that little green ghost boy or that ladybug girl in the Batfam one more time i think i may explode. i have a lot of thoughts on *why* i think specifically Danny Phantom and Miraculous Ladybug get crossed over as often as they do with the Batfam, but i don't think anyone wants to year that. my only exception to this is Jason/Bucky Barnes, but it *has* to be comics!Bucky. like. Judd Winick's Jason and Ed Brubaker's Bucky would hatefuck and that i wish to see it. any other crossover ship (especially the Peter Parker ones that seem to be rising in popularity) just do *not* do it for me.

honestly besides that i don't think i dislike many ships. (aside from being super opinionated on Bruce ships, but that's mostly bc ppl will use him to butcher the character they ship him with) there are some ships i'm neutral to because i simply do not know enough to have an opinion (like Dick/Wally). i guess the only Batcest ship i'm not particular to is Bruce/Damian, but I wouldn't say that one is popular nor would i say i dislike it, just that it's not my cup of tea. most Batcest ships click for me in one way or another because i like their Weird dnyamics. i guess i could also say i dislike most ships that have come out of Young Justice (tv) because. oh my *god* why were those group of characters put together on a team. it's baffling. but even then it's not disliking those ships, it's moreso disliking that show's depiction of those characters so. everything is really dependant on the canon context for me!

[ectonurites]

Two Jason Todd things I don’t understand being widespread fanon are Jason smoking after he comes back to life, considering it would cause health problems that would interfere with his mission and also that he died of smoke inhalation, and the autopsy scar thing. Like, I’m pretty sure the Lazarus Pit would heal that right?

Oh yeah mood on both of those

Especially considering his mom just stood there smoking as she watched him get beaten, combined with the things you brought up, I think he’d actively avoid it. It was also only something he’d really been shown doing in canon before becoming Robin if I’m recalling correctly, anyways. (edit: He is shown sneaking a cigarette in a flashback portion of the story in Gotham Knights #43-45 that retroactively fits into his time as Robin, but that is the only time he's actually shown smoking after becoming Robin that I'm aware of)

(Batman #427)

Then while the autopsy scar I think is... appealing in a lot of ways, and I understand the angst potential etc and why people like it.... it literally just wouldn’t be there for multiple reasons, depending on which version of canon we’re talking about. 

Pre-Reboot like... The way I understand it... Jason’s ‘resurrection’ is more so that he was restored to the way he’d have been if he hadn’t died at the moment he did. Superboy Prime’s punch ‘righted the wrong’ of his death and restored him to life, because that’s what should have happened. Something like scars from an autopsy that would have been performed after he died would have disappeared as part of this magic stuff that un-did the decomposition and restored him to his previous state, before a Lazarus Pit even got involved.

(Batman Annual #25)

That’s why when he wakes up he’s still got all the injuries from when the Joker beat him, because his body was returned to that state, essentially un-doing the death rather than just healing the dead body (but not undoing the history of it having happened, obviously.) The people who find him and treat him at the hospital talk about how his body still shows all the injuries, and they talk about them as if his condition indicates those things happened recently and he was buried alive right after:

(Batman Annual #25)

And even if somehow he’d still had the autopsy scar with this stuff in mind, which I don’t really see how he could have unless i’m misunderstanding something, the pit definitely would have healed it like you said. 

In New 52 and on canon we have less details about the exact nature of his resurrection beyond the involvement of the pit, so I can’t say with quite the same level of certainty if he could have had one going into the pit or not. But again, the pit heals things like that.

As much as I hate to give Scott Lobdell credit for anything, his All-Caste bullshit did give Jason some magic tattoos that only sometimes show up that are vaguely in the shape/placement of autopsy scars as sort of a call-back to the idea, which I think is the closest anything in canon will ever get to it:

(Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011) #5)

But yeah like, it’s a fun idea and again I totally get why people like it (looks cool, themes of death, physical reminders he died, etc) and I do enjoy it from time to time (thinks... about all the very sexy Nick Robles Jason art with it...) but logistically especially for Pre-New 52 it just doesn’t make sense. Since the nature of his resurrection has not been explained in as much detail since The New 52 you could probably fudge the details to make it work a bit better there, but still.

[pluckyredhead]

13, 15, 17, and 19 for the salty ask meme!

13. What’s the worst character assassination you’ve seen happen?

There are so many but what DC did to Cassandra Cain and Mary Marvel in the late 2000s was some of the worst.

15. Tell me about a plotline that could have been interesting if anyone else wrote it.

Literally all of Red Hood and the Outlaws and its various related titles. Also every issue of Nightwing by Tom Taylor has set up super interesting concepts and conflicts and potential plot developments and then instantly undermined them with cheesy deus ex machinas and I want to tear my hair out.

17. Tell me about your least favorite editorial decision?

The New 52, forever and always. I could rant about this for hours but the top line points:

It favored immediate goals over long-term success. Yes, sales spiked in September 2011 because #1s always sell the most. Eventually you still have to publish #2.

It was terribly executed. I avoided most of it at the time but I've read a lot of New 52 series recently and it seems like they said to every writer "Write this book for people who hate the lead character, comics, and themselves." What a bleak, juvenile, same-y publishing lineup.

It was notoriously sexist. The number of women working on their books infamously dwindled from an already embarrassing 12% to 1%. They also ran two surveys, one in comic book shops and one online, to see who their demographic was, and when the online survey was about 35% women (as opposed to the stores, where the percentage of female respondents was much, much smaller), they threw out the results because they said the online survey respondents "had an agenda." (The survey had other massive issues with how it collected data, but that one made me the maddest.)

And of course, on a personal level, it threw out stories and characters I loved deeply.

19. Rant about a change they made to a character of your choice.

LET JON KENT BE A KID AGAIN. LET LIAN HARPER BE A KID AGAIN. LET JACKSON HYDE BE A KID AGAIN. I hate this insistence on stealing the childhoods of younger characters which only creates redundancies that mean more characters get sidelined (what do you do with two teenage Superboys? two grown up Aqualads? four teen girls in the Arrowfam? someone is inevitably getting screwed over). Meanwhile Tim Drake has been a high school sophomore for thirty years.