#i do have OSDD (dissociative disorder) though so i think i can positively make this comparison

[spriinglocked]

"defiance disorders arent real it wont kill you to just do what youre told" i dont think you realize that its called a disorder because its quite literally a huge change in their brain and may feel as if they physically cant do what you want them to for any reason. its like telling someone with a dissociative disorder to just stop having alters. all disorders are important and need to be recognized because of people like this

[deakwithit]

being a fictive and knowing you were once delusionally attached to your source to the point of blocking kins/id/any sucks bc i still feel like the real one, even though i know im not. like wdym im not the only oswald cobblepot, why cant i be?

but osdd/did doesnt make you a fictional character, i never was nor will be oswald cobblepot really, im just a manifestation of deep rooted problems. i may look like oswald cobblepot but at the end of the day, hes just someone i resemble. i wont ever be him, and reminding myself of that is both positive and negative. sometimes it sends me into a meltdown, other times it makes me feel less trapped. i like being myself and having my own personality, i like my gender and my identities, i like my labels, i like who i am outside of my "source"

i wish i never fell into that anti recovery "this is me and me only" mindset. i wish i never fell for the concept of doubles. i wish i could go back and tell myself im not a fictional character, so id stop dissociating as much. looking in a mirror became difficult because i didnt look like me.

i wish i could go back and not be this slightly delusionally attached person who clings onto their source, but it feels like all i have sometimes.

i represent our bpd, our anxiety, im supposed to help us, but ive only hindered. my host days are over and i know they wont come back. im content with that. i fronted for a year, only going in small intervals, only getting to leave fully maybe a couple times. this was supposed to be a break for me but all i feel is bitter hatred towards my headmates for taking my life away from me. i wont get to experience everyday again, i will just pop in sometimes to have a conversation, nothing else.

nothing about this is fun, this is cruel, demeaning, embarrassing, humiliating, and not once in 2 years has there been a day i havent suffered because of this stupid disorder

why do other systems get to go through life without amnesia, with low dissociation, knowing their parts and their intracacies, knowing their member counts, etc, while i cant remember wether i worked yesterday or not. i go to work and dont know what im doing or where im going half the time. i have to cook, as a fast food worker, and i make too much food and i wonder when i even started moving to make it. i dont feel myself, i dont feel like im there, i feel like im floating. all i can do is think, im trapped in my own head watching myself move and its agonizing, i dont know what i couldve done as a child to deserve such abhorrent symptoms. this is ruining my life. i cant remember spending time with my bf. i can hardly remember details of my own life. i still write my deadname on things knowing ive been out for years as dante. i cant remember anything and it is pure suffering to wake up everyday

[sophieinwonderland]

Everyone on Reddit is saying that tulpa persecutors are psychosis just because they aren’t good tulpas, please talk about it, this opinion is harmful to both psychotic people and persecutor tulpas. Thank you /gen

Oh. This.

I mean, in truth, I have mixed feelings about this.

I believe tulpa persecutors can exist. But as far as I'm aware, there are two main ways they tend to come about.

The first is a positive relationship with a headmate that later becomes hostile due to some sort of unresolved internal conflict over a long period of time.

Or, more often, a persecutor is partially-intentionally made as a persecutor. This can either be by talking to an inner critic or negative part of yourself until it becomes sapient without knowing what you're doing, or by making a headmate that's supposed to be critical of you because that's what you think is healthiest at the time. (Only to learn that maybe this was a bad idea later.)

Otherwise, I find tulpa persecutors to be rare. Maybe not impossible, but not common either since tulpas tend to bond pretty closely to their creators at the time of their creation when shown love and affection.

So I do think that if someone says they have a persecutory voice, it's often best to recommend they look into mental illnesses and seek treatment.

HOWEVER, I dislike how the push in the tulpamancy community is often towards psychotic disorders.

A lot of voice hearing experienced by people who say they have tulpas are more likely to be dissociative rather than psychotic.

Here are a couple tables comparing voice hearing in DID and OSDD to schizophrenia. (There are two schizophrenia groups, one with maltreatment and one without.)

Not many of these points can be used to determine the difference between dissociative and psychotic voices alone, but there are several points that can help at least.

The DID voices are more likely to show self-awareness and talk about themselves in relation to the hosts.

They're MUCH more likely to start before adulthood, and it's likely some voices present will be child voices.

There's usually more than two voices present in DID.

They're more likely to be accompanied by headaches.

They're more likely to be accompanied by other hallucinations (visual, tactile, olfactory, gustatory, etc.)

On the other hand, while both groups tend to experiences voices as "internal" a lot, there's a small group of people with Schizophrenia who only experience external voices. (28% and 19% for Schizophrenia groups vs 3% for DID groups.) If someone falls into this category, it's much more likely their voices psychotic.

Note: These statistics only apply to Schizophrenia and DID. Caution is advised when extrapolating any DID statistics to OSDD or Partial DID, as well as extrapolating data on Schizophrenia to other psychotic disorders.

Overall though, I feel there needs to be a lot more education of voice hearing and how it typically manifests in different disorders, as well as how it manifests in non-disordered experiences.

[dissociativediscourse]

Since I got blocked by someone for no reason after trying to explain it earlier, thought I’d make a little post to clear this up, complete with sources! CDD is not a term meant to cover all dissociative disorders (Hence, “Complex”. It’s meant to distinguish DID et al. from things like DP/DR, dissociative fugue, standalone dissociative amnesia… et cet.) , and spitting vitriol at people who use that term for no reason is distasteful and shows that you don’t actually desire to fight misinformation, but instead to impose your fight response onto innocent bystanders. Don’t worry, I’ve been there, too. Trauma responses suck. It still makes you an asshole, though, just as much as I was one when I would do the same.

(A note, this user is not one I had seen in syscourse before today, and I was planning on this being just… Me dropping in, ignoring the rest of the vitriol, and maybe leaving behind a morsel of positive vibes and a tad bit of corrected misinfo without actually being combative about it. Another note, dear fuck, was it a lot of hatred and vitriol. This was on an opinion post about how one person believed that endos are inherently ableist, and I guess someone used the term CDD in the comments, which led the same user as well as another user to pull out all this (very rudely worded, might I add) mishegas about ‘don’t refer to me with your new terms!! i am a DID system not a CDD system!!’ and then ‘yadda yadda, CDDs are all dissociative disorders and don’t mean just the system ones yadda yadda.’ This ticked me off a little. Directing that kind of behavior at other people is unacceptable, especially considering you’re not even correct!! So I left a warm-spirited comment something along the lines of “Just so you know, CDD does just mean DID/OSDD! It can be muddied up and confusing sometimes, but it is used at least colloquially among specialists/professionals, and is referenced in some clinical research and peer reviewed writings as well. It’s really just shorthand that’s more succinct!” And when I replied a second time with some sources to help out (no room in the first comment), to my surprise… Blocked! So… Lmao. Here we are, I already had all these sources ready, so why not. Also, if you see this, person I will not name, try to think about why you are so reluctant to accept new information that does not fit your worldview, and why you have to be so… Nasty? About it. I get you’re young and you’re traumatized, just like most of us. You’ve got to learn how to work with others in a productive way. You’ve got to learn how to mitigate that vitriol. It’s not healthy for you, and I promise you you will regret it later on. Sooner than you’d think. I know I very much regret the way I used to behave.)

Very clear on the definition, also a very useful read in general: https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-022-03970-8

“DID and the closely related Other Specified Dissociative Disorders, example 1 (OSDD), where similar disturbances are observed without meeting the full clinical picture of DID, are commonly categorized as Complex Dissociative Disorders (CDD)”

(This is followed by a citation, which links to “Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders: DSM-V and Beyond”, edited by Paul F. Dell, John A. O'Neil.)

This one’s similar: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35695685/

“Complex dissociative disorders (CDD) include dissociative identity disorder (DID) and the most common other specified dissociative disorder (OSDD, type 1).”

Another one: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15299732.2014.949020

“There is a paucity of empirical data to assist clinicians in choosing interventions to use with patients with complex dissociative disorder (DD; i.e., dissociative identity disorder and dissociative disorder not otherwise specified) at different stages in treatment.”

I could continue, but I think the point has been made.

Spitting vitriol helps no one, firstly, and secondly, I’m honestly quite appalled at being randomly blocked for (very cordially, might I add) offering an explanation of what the term CDD meant — which you had improperly defined in your comment. Considering the rudeness with which you spread misinformation and the venomous nature both of you involved seem to have exhibited throughout that exchange, it’s plain to me that your interest doesn’t lie with actually being correct. You just want to be pissy at people.

Again, I was once there. Exactly the same spot you’re in. And then I grew up.

I hope therapy treats you well.

[system-of-a-feather]

If you are still taking asks about your syscourse stance from anti endos (I'm a bit late) :

1. Excluding those who do not remember their trauma or do not believe it to be enough to be traumagenic, do you believe that endos are really experiencing systemhood and not some other kind of plurality or multiplicity?

I cannot understand how someone who doesn't have any dissociation could ever have alters. It just doesn't make sense at all to me, no matter what angle I look at it from, and I cannot find any sources explaining it either. I do not *not* believe that endos are experiencing some kind of multiplicity but I don't think it's necessarily systemhood, if that makes sense?

2. How do you not get jaded by some of the things you see happening in the pro-endo spaces?

I'm talking about things like people labeling themselves "trans-programmed" or "trans-RAMCOA" (and so many more), those same people often calling traumagenic systems privileged, and other people who keep spreading misinfo about OSDDID (for example, that you don't need trauma to have DID), etc.

I know this isn't the entire community but I rarely see much opposition to those behaviors, which makes me feel very unsafe amongst most pro-endos.

1. Excluding those who do not remember their trauma or do not believe it to be enough to be traumagenic, do you believe that endos are really experiencing systemhood and not some other kind of plurality or multiplicity?

Honestly, I think the only thing in this topic is a lot of arguing over semantics and if words can be shared. From what I'm getting, I think you equate systemhood / being a system to being traumagenic / DID / OSDD exclusively. From the sounds of it, I think you seem to be open to the idea that they do experience multiplicity / plurality so I don't think we disagree there much. I personally don't think "system" and "systemhood" needs to be an explicitly DID/OSDD term but its also a debate I have very little interest in. I am cool with saying that "system" is a term that people can use regardless of their nature cause - to me - it's just a way of labeling yourself.

Also, while I am not sure if it is similar or the same as DID/OSDD alters, I honestly could see how someone could have disordered plurality without being traumagenic simply due to how prolonged internet usage can cause a dissociative effect, especially in situations where roleplaying features are around and those have been documented in clinical studies - particularly around the proposed internet gaming disorder and internet gaming addiction. There is a lot of research to be done whether the experience of DID/OSDD like symptoms late in age is anywhere comparable to the more traditionally researched and understood DID/OSDD that stems from complex and chronic childhood trauma - but it's honestly a pretty false notion that dissociation ONLY comes due to trauma. (ADHD has it as a symptom, internet usage has a dissociative affect on the self, substances can also do it, meditation also can do it) So I figure with the combination of developing research in developmental psychopathology and research into other things that can cause dissociation that we might honestly find other means of developing alters or alter-like experiences in people who did not experience the extended trauma often seen in our current understanding of DID/OSDD.

2. How do you not get jaded by some of the things you see happening in the pro-endo spaces?

I just divide "pieces of shit" from "people just living their lives". //shot//

Honestly, really though, if someone is being an asshole, bigotted, extremely fucked up, etc I consider them first and foremost their fucked up group and then the neutral or positive group identities they have second.

So if someone is trans-programmed and identify as endo - I identify them FIRST as a toxic and fucked up trans-ID person who happens to identify as part of the endo community. I attribute the trans-ID shit to their trans-ID beliefs and give the overall community the benefit of the doubt and good faith that the overlap is a Ven Diagram and not a circle.

Generally I like to avoid generalizing groups as all bad based on their bad corners, especially if I've seen the community actually make efforts to improve. I personally found the latter of the that statement earned with the good faith I saw in a lot of quiogenic and endogenic systems when the tulpa-discourse came up and a good number of servers and people made the effort to leave the appropriated terms behind.

From that point I went "aight ok" and divided the endo community between racists and people with no intent of improving themselves and their community and endos that just honestly want to live their life and are doing the best in their knowledge to not harm others.

TransID people I generally put in the same group as the Tulpa people and just click my tongue in disgust and block them.

But TLDR I just honestly would prefer to give the people that haven't done anything wrong a chance to just live their lives without hurting people rather than punishing them with the people that really don't care the harm they do. Just cause some people who claim to be part of your group are pieces of shit, doesn't mean everyone in that group both 1) supports and wants those people in their group and 2) deserve to be shunned, harassed, and treated with poorly.

[spookedwerewolf]

Hii! about your post questioning if you're a system: I think a better place to start is neurodivergency or, if you've been through trauma, dissociative PTSD (it's extremely similar to OSDD!). I think the ideal thing to do is to seek a psychologist to voice these concerns to, since they will help you figure out what the cause may be, and how to deal with how disorienting it is to feel so scattered. Especially when it comes to memory gaps/loss, it can be really frustrating or distressing, and a professional can absolutely help you with that (they helped me a LOT)!!

Having an "unstable" or many-faceted personality is 100% normal, and while it can be confusing or frustrating (trust me, I have the same experiences with fluidity in all my identities...), it's not inherently a sign of something like being a system, and is way more likely a sign that you're a complex individual (trying to use species-neutral terms here >_<;;). I think a lot of people question DID or OSDD-1/P-DID based on very subjective accounts of the experience from other people who also just go based on other subjective accounts, and that can make it seem like just about anything is a sign, when in reality it's a pretty difficult thing to assess, even for professionals in the field.

My suggestion other than seeking the help of a professional, is to read more about (and watch videos on) other dissociative disorders, and how they affect someone's identity, and also PTSD, as that can have the same unstable identity issues as OSDD-1 (that's what it turned out I had when I was in the same position as you!).

Sorry this got so long, and good luck!!

I wish I could go to a professional, but my current living situation doesn’t allow that right now and the last time I went to a professional it did not go well lol. I think maybe I will in the future at some point if my insurance allows it. :3 Also ty for the advice! It is really helpful /gen. And I think you’re right about me just having ptsd. While much of what I read does line up with me being a system, I just can’t really figure out whether or not I actually am. Also I am definitely neurodivergent, though I can’t figure out what I am at the moment (the reason behind it is a long story) Ty though!

[chowderofcats]

Questions & Answers // Q&A

If a question you have isn't answered here, please send an ask in our inbox and we'll add it if we see fit!

Thank you.

(A TLDR will be added at the bottom of each answer. I know the answers are lengthy, sorry for that!)

Q: Why did you make this blog?

A: I carry a lot of embarrassment and shame around my disorder. This blog was an idea encouraged by our therapist in hopes of finding community and positivity. I really want to be less ashamed about this disorder, as I can't even bring myself to talk to my closest friends about it. This blog is here both as an outlet for us to be ourselves and for me to feel less horrible about all of this.

TLDR: I want to be less embarrassed, and to find community. Therapist encouraged the blog.

Q: "Professionally recognized P-DID"?

A: Professionally recognized is a term we use in replacement of medically recognized as we see it as more fitting. We are not diagnosed and I don't want to accidentally imply we are.

Simply put, our therapist and psychiatrist both seem to agree we experience some form of multiplicity.

TLDR: Therapist + psychiatrist both agree, but it's not official/on paper.

Q: You're not diagnosed? Why?

A: As of now, we do not wish to seek a diagnosis for OSDDID. Such a disorder being on our medical record seems much more risky than not. First off, we are trying to immigrate and have heard that certain diagnoses will affect immigration, I don't want to hurt my chances of escaping where I live. As well as, while we are an adult, we do not support ourselves. Our parents would discover the diagnosis regardless of if we want them to (yes, we know theres privacy regulations in place for medical records. It really doesn't matter).

We have a trauma disorder for a reason. Please understand why that might not be the best for us. Perhaps in the future, we will, though.

TLDR: It's currently dangerous for us to get a diagnosis like this.

Q: How do you know you have P-DID?

A: We don't! I find it important to note that we can be wrong. We don't know if we have P-DID, DID, OSDD, etc. We really won't know until we get a proper diagnosis and/or proper screenings & assessments (we have had assessments in the past, but they weren't inherently for DID, only for our other diagnosis. Although I think we did get tested at some point? I'd need to contact my psychiatrist for that information). We, as of now, are only going off what we have discussed with our therapist and psychiatrist, alongside our own education and experiences (we are currently in college to make a pathway towards a career in therapy/counseling. Due to this, we have very fortunate opportunities to further our education and understandings of both ourselves and those around us).

All we do know for certain is that we experience severe disassociation, identity disturbances, memory loss, and what seems to be severe trauma (I don't really remember it all, and apparently, some happened pre-verbal, so idfk man).

TLDR: I don't know and won't until I get an actual diagnosis. I can only go off of the information I have currently.

Q: Are you planning on recovery or...

Absolutely, our disorders are hell on earth, and the sooner gone/made less shitty, the better. Still debating between final fusion and functional/healthy multiplicity. For healthy multiplicity, I think I'd only want one other alter to stay separate, two others at maximum. We used to have a major problem with splitting too much too often (likely a result of living in a high stress environment). I think it's calmed now, although I'm unsure. We've had lots of fusion between dissociative parts as of late (which is both good and bad in its own ways, since this hasn't been done in the most healthy of ways). Healing is slow, but I like to think that one step forward and two steps back only means I'll atleast know how to take the next two steps with ease. Progress is progress.

TLDR: Yes. Obviously.

Q: Why do you use both "we" and "I"?

A: I use "I" when referring to an individual thought, memory, emotion, etc, that applies to me specifically and not the whole(or majority) of the system. We use "we" when referring to general things, or widely known/accepted ideas, memories, etc, or just us as a whole.

TLDR: We = general, I = personal.

Q: Why are you so "introject-heavy"?

A: While it seems to be uncommon or rare, we are! I also, for once, may have a real answer to this. Growing up, ever since we started forming memories properly (and for reasons I don't understand), we've been creating OCs (original chatacters) as a coping mechanism. Disassociation was our main form of survival to get through traumatic situations, and usually, we did so with creating fictional characters.

If you wanted my guess? Since our brain already used fictional characters as a coping mechanism, our brain further applied the mechanism to what it decided we needed to "survive." Us having most of our alters be fictional characters or characters we made ourselves that got introjected makes a lot of sense. Our *only* safe space growing up was books and shows, which obviously centered around fictional characters. School and home life were both hostile, so we surrounded ourselves with imaginary things. Our only escape at the time was fiction.

Also, a note, introjects (be it fictives or not), are not the character, person, or thing that they represent. Introjects are simply alters that, when splitting, had absorbed traits from something external (such ad loved ones, characters, abusers, etc.) People who are not systems introject all the time, most commonly from loved ones. An example being when you start clicking with one of your friend and start subconsciously copying their mannerisms and personality traits. You can introject parts of anything into yourself subconsciously, fictional or not. It's incredibly normal! Introjects in systems are just more extreme cases of it.

TLDR: Brain has a weird ass coping mechanism and I don't know why it's there. Fiction was the only escape we had. + introjects aren't actual characters, just an alter that... introjected traits.

(Please understand all of the above information is written with my current knowledge, I can be wrong, and I likely am in various places. Be patient and understanding. I will correct any mistakes when I learn new information, you are free to contact me with concerns.)

[multiplicity-positivity]

how do i tell my therapist that i think i might be an osdd system without sounding crazy? ive tried once in the past and ended up getting essentially bullied into submission by my therapist even though ive been having symptoms associated with said disorder, or at the bare minimum a dissociative disorder. my therapist ended up not being a good match and i'm being referred out to a specialist now and im just tired and questioning if i even should see another therapist because of the ammount of negative experiences ive had :/ sorry this is a bummer ask lol i just need some insight

Hiya! We answered a similar post recently, so we’re gonna go ahead and link it here - a lot of the info we shared may be useful for you! :3

If you’re getting referred to a specialist, chances are they’re familiar with dissociation, dissociative disorders, and the symptoms that accompany them!! So discussing your other symptoms first before you bring up your system is probably your best bet!

We’re so sorry you’ve had so many rough experiences in therapy >_< We hope you’ll be able to work with a kind, understanding therapist that can help you better understand yourself without dismissing you or your symptoms!!

While it may be true that therapy doesn’t work for everyone, we firmly believe having an excellent therapist can make a huge difference. We know firsthand how challenging it can be to find a good therapist, though! Regardless of what you end up doing, we wish you the very best!! >w<

💚 Ralsei and 🖋 Cecil

[promiseiwillwrite]

January "Whatever Comes Up"

Okay, So, I gotta do some stripped down explaining before I get into this, because there is no other way it can make sense.

Once upon a time, a long time ago, a girl was abused, and as a result of this, she developed coping mechanisms that allowed her to create safety in herself that could not be had in her lived experience.

Some of the abuse focused on her speaking the truth and not being believed until she broke down under great physical and verbal interrogation and made something else up. The girl traded places with a reflection in a mirror, and dissociated intentionally once, and then often during abuse after that. As time wore on, physical abuse became so frequent that memories stopped forming properly, and dissociation became subconscious and unconscious and involuntary.

There was a divorce, and a great deal of upheval. There was a re-marriage of parents.

So when a time came not long after this, that she began to experience emotional abuse and neglect, the coping strategy had been set up as the default, and she broke into pieces to protect herself, and to preserve the idea in herself that she was good and worthy of love.

While there was never in their history any clinical diagnosis of OSDD or DID, the experiences the girl had during her teenage years very likely fell into these diagnostic realms. The girl had no idea at the time that this is what was happening, and neither did her parents. All she knew was that these beings, real or imagined, that operated in her mind's eye were caring, and provided her with emotional support and positive social interaction that were absent in her life. They kept her from taking her own life, and in the end, served a great positive purpose.

The story here must necessarily skip twenty years and half a human lifetime, because there's a lot of shit in there, and no one has that kind of time on Tumblr.

There were many attempts by the girl to address her psychological difficulties, and to break out of disordered paradigms. Sometimes these took the form of therapy, other times less orthodox methods were used, all with varying degrees of progress towards holistic wellbeing.

In this spirit, the girl gathered her will, and focused herself and put down all the old coping mechanisms, no matter how much she loved them, because she was aware that they could be restricting her growth. They might be the very thing preventing her from seeing a way forward. And it was honestly the only thing she hadn't tried.

And so after 30 years as a system, the girl found herself alone in her mind for the first time.

It was terrible. There was no one to intercede, no one to feel the bad things in her stead, and no one to protect her from the parts of reality she kept wanting to resist because of the trauma.

She Mourned, as though her entire family had died, and she couldn't ask anyone for consolation in her grief. She felt things she had feared. She was insanely bored. She was Lonely in ways Only someone with her experience can be. She failed and broke many times, retreating to memories and avoidance. But she kept coming back to the conviction of recovery, and resolutely, she resisted the urge to push away these negative experiences, determined to eventually sit with it.

Slowly, the girl started to see things she hadn't. She reached out and found accessible to her new ways of thinking and being. She found new motivations, and strength. And then she looked back at where she'd come from, and some things started, finally, to make sense.

And then she fucked around with a Big spell for the start of a new Year, and She Found Out.

She wanted to connect with Entities. She wanted to learn more about her own desire, which seemed, at the time of the casting, to have left her alone in the fog of a distant moor.

And the first Entity to visit her was one she had known before, and it came in much the manner she expected, with lessons and perspectives that she appreciated.

But the second came to her in quite a different way.

It was, she was sure, because of the Party. And because of her own uncertainty in her response.

And this entity she knew. His name was Rath. He had been one of the first alters/others/people to speak in her head with his own voice. And he had been a Great Love of hers.

And she felt her Inner Stubborn Mule, and Inner Petrified creature Ram both heels down into the mud to stop, and at the same time puff out all the hairs like a terrified kitten.

She had intentionally put this all down, because she wanted to create conditions for better mental health.

But it made her feel very disconnected from many emotional experiences, particularly some quite pleasant ones, that she had come to know were ways of coping with immense difficulty. She knew that she had been addicted to these things, and that they looked now like an intensely slippery slope, standing before her in the open arms of a personification that made her mouth water.

But her life did not now contain immense difficulty. There was no real need for the succor that these emotional and physical sensations brought, because ... And there was silence.

Because there was no equivalent reason not to have these experiences as a part of life either. Logic dictated that there was no inherent virtue or vice in any emotional or physical experience in itself. There could not be. Emotions were just emotions. Thoughts were just thoughts. Only Affective Judgement made them have meaning. And that meaning could be Chosen, or not chosen.

And the Same skills that one used to ease the fear of negative emotions and thoughts that came unbidden were necessarily the same as the ones used to ease the fear of positive emotions and their consequences.

It was through quite humbling acknowledgement, then, that she started to see why he had come.

Dissociation from positive emotions, even with the intention of breaking addiction to them, while effective, is still dissociation. It is still the use of a coping mechanism rather than being open to actual experiences that arise. It is still a kind of resisting. Still a Reaction born in Fear.

Fuck.

More Later. I am going to avoid this for a bit by working on the House Cleaning project that I said I would do today. See, we just crossed the threshold where competing things that I have been avoiding have switched balance, so finishing my blog story is *much* less attractive than deep cleaning my bedroom.

[justanothersyscourse]

So you're very, very close on the stuff about the TOSD, so I'm going to super quickly give a couple extra points (there's been some updates! Exciting), and then bring it back to IFS, because I'm hoping that will generate some genuinely positive conversation.

I'm really happy you're responding, I'm not great with tone tags, but everything here is meant with a sort of... kind, respectful excitement? Like, yayy, let's have good conversations, broaden our ideas, and see if we can shed some light on a couple different syscourse topics.

So, TOSD. That's the general idea, yes, but there's actually more than just EPs and ANPs now! There's a number of "mixed parts", that act in both capacities. Over the years, it's become very clear that the ANP/EP dichotomy just isn't working. OSDD falls into the same category as BPD, but many with OSDD voiced concerns that they have more than one ANP. This either means that OSDD 1b needs to be consolidated into DID at the tertiary level and 1a needs to stay in secondary SD, or that the first round of research was missing things.

Clearly, it's the latter, and we should be seeing more info coming out over the coming years!

As well, it's been heavily suggested that BPD could very well be tertiary SD. What do we do then? X (PDF, careful on phone), X

(There's a lot on this, if anyone reading wants to look, Google 'borderline personality disorder "tertiary" structural dissociation' with the quotes and you'll start seeing more articles)

That said, let's talk IFS.

For those who missed the first bit of conversation, here's what the creator of IFS had to say about DID.

“We think people have parts, and parts are sub personalities, and in distinction to a lot of other systems we believe we’re born with them. It’s in the nature of the mind to be sub-divided. We’re all actually multiple personalities, and people who carry that diagnosis aren’t any different to us, except that theirs got blown apart more, from the horrific trauma they suffered.”

IFS has been around since the 80s, and it directly draws a comparison to DID-- continually and constantly, unlike endogenic systems, who are trying desperately to get away from DID.

Your description of IFS is pretty close, except for the fact that they believe they're systems, just like you and me. I can look at IFS and say, that's not the same thing, obviously, even though they're using our language and directly comparing themselves to us (not even going to lie, I despise the quote above, I hate it with every fiber of my 12 beings).

I hate it more than I hate endos.

It's just as inaccurate of a description of DID and more annoying of a comparison. It's also much more common in mainstream topics and clinical circles.

It's also not just for "disordered" singlets-- it's for everyone. And I can get behind that, to an extent. I think this type of therapy is incredibly important and beneficial to everyone.

Every single person should be taking care of their parts.

Not everyone has the same kind of parts though.

So why aren't we more angry about IFS? What if endogenic systems are simply more in tune with these parts-- they feel the shifts more acutely than others, or they can see their life more easily from the views of those parts (for example, they can really easily tell the difference between their work and social parts, seeing the choices and needs more clearly from each part).

Why are we so cruel to them but not about IFS?

At least with endogenic systems, they're trying to come up with their own language-- plurality, collective, headmates.

If we can understand that IFS isn't the same as DID, why can't we respect endogenic systems just trying to understand themselves better?

Personally, I think just as many endos will eventually realize they're traumagenic as there are endos simply living IFS to the fullest. So why do they deserve less respect?

I hope this makes sense! I hope people will comment on and talk about this.

I want to thank you for the time you put into your post, and if you made it through reading mine.

You don't need to reply, this can be the end of the conversation, but thank you regardless, and if we don't talk again, I hope you have a good day :)

Also, adding in for the other comment on this post-- the age of 6 comes from the authors of the DSM! In the book, "Dissociative Disorders in the DSM 5" they state:

However, this doesn't account for neurodevelopmental disorders that could slow the consolidation of the sense of self. Some doctors in more recent years suggest that with other disorders, the upper limit of the age cap could be somewhere from 12-16 to develop CDDs! Though on average, it's considered to be about 9~ years old.

Science is fun.

On IFS- @justanothersyscourse (sorry this is long!)

From what I understand about IFS based on what you said and what I’ve heard in the past, it’s a therapy to do with internal parts that aren’t alters- which can happen, because essentially alters are when there are solid dissociation walls (full, partial or emotional dissociation and amnesia) developed between ego states due to severe and/or extremely repetitive trauma as a child, and as the brain develops, these ego states will develop too, impacted by the trauma that they may or may not carry, into full blown dissociated, separate consciousnesses. (This does not mean they have full personalities, all alters add up to one person, one personality, but the Separation does mean different identities in themselves bc they developed as the brain was trying to develop a sense of identity.) but the ego states they were even before, are called Emotional Parts and Apparently Normal Parts, on a basic level. These ego states, these EPs and ANPs, are responsible for meeting the child’s basic needs- a part may have a job to secure a child’s secure attachment to a caregiver, a part may have a job to make sure the child doesn’t go hungry, a part may be there to make sure the child learns to properly communicate emotions, etc. with trauma, these functions are impacted. The parts take on trauma and hold it and don’t fuse properly.

Singlets can have these parts to themselves, especially traumatised singlets- everyone has parts to themselves, in neurotypical, non-traumatised people, I believe they fuse [almost] completely? Or have a secure enough lifestyle that the EPs and ANPs work together fluidly. I forget which it is exactly. With OSDDID, these emotional and apparently normal parts developed a sense of identity, with some carrying trauma and some not, and some carrying trauma but acting like they don’t/can only access that trauma some of the time? These are alters.

But with traumatised singlets, the EPs and ANPs never learned to work together fluidly enough due to certain needs not being met but others HAVE been met, so they’re still a singlet, but a traumatised, maybe slightly dysfunctional one. The parts were never impacted enough to have dissociative amnesia walls built between them, so they never turned into alters, but they don’t work fluidly with one another.

For instance, by medical definition, DID is the presence of multiple EPs and ANPs, separated by full, partial, and emotional amnesia and dissociation. OSDD is the presence of one ANP and multiple EPs, separated by partial and/or emotional amnesia and dissociation, and things like PTSD, BPD, and etc have one EP and one ANP that have a slight maybe slight lack of memory when switching between the two when triggered, and/or a lack of emotional permanence and “mood swings”, but do not have the full blown dissociation and amnesia and their parts do not have dissociated, separate identity.

Side note, this is also why people say more research needs to be done in the case of systems with personality disorders (they definitely exist, we are one, but from that definition it’s easy to understand why people want more research, right?)

IFS is from what I can understand a therapy caring for parts in disordered singlets that have EPs and ANPs that do not work together fluidly, such as in BPD, [C-]PTSD and etc. I do not like that they sometimes might steal actual system terms but there can be “parts” without them being alters.

Apologies if anything here is not explained properly I am in school and writing this on my lunch break/in lesson lol I will explain things (if I remember) after if anyone needs it!

Feel free to correct me if I got any of this wrong I am not a professional simply an Autistic system who is chronically online with a special interest in psychology and online friends with actual psychology students who are also systems 😭✌️ please use tone tags tho I don’t do well with perceived criticism most of the time /lh /g

[sophieinwonderland]

Found this blog through one of your psychology posts. I dont know much about tulpas, so I was wondering "What makes you think you're a tulpa and not an alter formed from DID?"

Hi there! Nice to meet you!

There are a few things.

The main thing is just that we just don't fit the criteria.

Harm

At their core, most disorders have some sort of harm criterion. In the DSM, that's "clinically significant distress or impairment" in important areas of functioning.

While there can be a lot of debate in what constitutes symptoms of a mental disorder being "clinically significant" enough to be diagnosed, it should generally be considered that experiences which are neutral (don't cause harm) or that are net positive (benefits outweigh minor inconveniences) wouldn't meet the criteria.

Tulpamancy is usually beneficial to people's mental health, or at least neutral.

Boundary with Normality

The ICD-11 has a boundary with normality, where it states that two distinct personality states can exist without it being a mental disorder.

The presence of two or more distinct personality states does not always indicate the presence of a mental disorder. In certain circumstances (e.g., as experienced by ‘mediums’ or other culturally accepted spiritual practitioners) the presence of multiple personality states is not experienced as aversive and is not associated with impairment in functioning. A diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder should not be assigned in these cases.

This is also echoed in the DSM criterion D.

The disturbance is not a normal part of a broadly accepted cultural or religious practice. Note: In children, the symptoms are not better explained by imaginary playmates or other fantasy play.

While "broadly" is term that can be debated, I would argue that this definition applies to subcultures equally, lest it pathologize experiences of minority religions.

Amnesia

This one is less important but worth mentioning. In the DSM, criterion B states that you need to experience "recurrent gaps in the recall of everyday events, important personal information, and/or traumatic events that are inconsistent with ordinary forgetting."

This isn't something we experience.

The reason I say it's less important is because this doesn't preclude forms of OSDD-1. And the ICD-11 doesn't have an amnesia criterion, even though amnesia at some point is associated with the illness.

Other Considerations

There are other points that I consider more generalities than hard dividing lines. While I'm open to the possibility of DID existing without trauma, it is overwhelmingly associated with childhood trauma. Even if trauma is forgotten, responses are usually still present. We don't have those.

Going from the last point, switching in DID systems often is based on triggers. That's how alters tend to form. And while it can be controlled later on, it's still common for switching triggers to exist by default. Instinctive switching is a huge part of how traumagenic systems form. For us and most tulpamancers, switching was a skill we had to learn.

I'd argue that tulpamancy practices might have more in common with many spiritual practices, despite tulpamancy itself being largely psychological.

Blurring Lines

I do want to note that while non-disordered systems are distinct from those with dissociative disorders, there does appear to be some relationships between the two. A DID system who creates a tulpa from a tulpamancy guide will often end up with something that functions similar to alters in their system, and may experience triggered switching or amnesia between them if those things are already there with other headmates.

Here's a great article if you want more from the perspective of a tulpa system with DID.

More...

If you're interested in psychology and would like to learn more about tulpa systems, you should check out this paper by Samuel Veissiere, a Psychiatry professor and McGill University.

[queerautism]

(warning: rambley and possibly nonsensical, sorry T.T)

hey, can you talk about how and why you ID as traumagenic but not disordered/a pwOSDDID? just curious (lol, autocorrect tried to change “curious” into “furious”, bro wtf??) because that sounds maybe like what I am discovering myself to be like???

because I am rather confident that I’m a system/multiple but also pretty sure that I don’t have OSDDID but that I am not endogenic either. essentially, my spiritual beliefs explain how it happened (in a way that is more intuitive/makes more sense to me than anything psychology-based), but I wouldn’t be multiple without the trauma. so, my multiplicity has been influenced/caused by both trauma history and spirituality, and so I don’t really know how to consider myself in terms of genesis/community terms (and I really don’t want to step on any toes)

additionally, I am rather new to online system spaces, so I apologize if anything I’ve said is just blatantly misinformed/misguided and for any incorrect use of terms. I have come to all of these conclusions/self-reflections on my own, and have been observing/learning about systemhood online through a more general lens for a few months now (though this will be my first interaction lol…. *extremely nervous smile/grimace*)

so, ultimately, I’m just looking for guidance/to compare experiences (as you are comfortable, of course) and you have been the first person in the system community that (I think) I relate to. super sorry if this is too much pressure, I tend to overshare when I’m anxious/uncertain

if you’ve addressed any part of this (long and moderately complicated) ask previous, please feel free to link to that instead of rehashing it. I tried searching this blog (and came up with nothing) but I have heard that that function is iffy/inconsistent/untrustworthy and I wasn’t sure what terms to search either

sorry for any and all incoherence, four different parts have had a hand in composing this ask and unfortunately, I don’t have time or brainpower at the moment to edit for clarity. additionally, do you have recurring anons with identifiers?? if so, can I be one please?? with 🗝/“key” as my identifier/name??? I’m unfortunately not comfortable coming off anon to publicly message a blog with 4k followers lol

and finally (at last!!!) would you be interested in/receptive to me sending an ask explaining/rambling about my spirituality and how it relates to multiplicity?? I’d love to get thoughts from you (and your followers) and/or see if there’s anyone else out there with similar beliefs/who can relate, but I also understand if that (either spirituality generally or spirituality in relation to systemhood) is a sensitive/uncomfy topic

thanks!!! (and sorry again)

-🗝

I don't mind talking about it at all. We went through an extremely traumatic event in this past year and we survived it through becoming a system. It was an adaptive change, and a positive thing.

We do not fit the criteria for disorders like DID and OSDD because we do not experience clinically significant distress related to being a system. Trauma is not a requirement for dissociative disorders, endogenic DID and OSDD systems are absolutely a thing.

We also refuse to medicalise our plurality. We formed due to horrible medical trauma and really resent the way some people attent to force us to medicalise our systemhood and further traumatise ourselves.

You don't have to choose one specific origin label, btw. It's perfectly fine to say your system or plurality is based on your spirituality and leave it at that. No one is entitled to know this information about you, the current focus on origins is absurd.

Feel free to send asks about your spirituality yeah that's fine :) We do have some recurring anons so that's totally fine too

[victoria-penelope-clover]

Please use paragraph breaks next time.

i just dont like the black-and-white dogmatic structure of the plural community.

You seeing everything in black and white is the real problem here, as I'll get into later. Yes, both sides funnel toward the more extreme positions, but this happens with literally every two-sided argument on the internet. This does not mean the positions between don't exist.

but some pro endos have also said DID and osdd can develop without trauma if the person is just naturally dissociative enough and that DID and osdd develop from being naturally highly dissociative instead of trauma (when really DID and osdd develop from disorganized attachment/emotional trauma accordion to the theory of structural dissociation.)

Scientific theory isn't fact set in stone, especially in a soft science like psychology. Trauma would obviously make someone highly dissociative, so with so many people claiming to have not developed OSDDID from trauma, this is a fine hypothesis to test.

ive been downvoted and called out for saying DID and osdd can only develop from trauma.

I would be interested in seeing some of those callouts for the arguments used against you.

and i usually dont fakeclaim people but sometimes peoples alters are just cringe

How hard your ass cheeks are pressing together is not a good basis for determining whether someone is faking.

i saw a system have an alter that was supposed to cutesey up autism even more, a tbh creature alter with aw/tism pronouns

Can't say much without more context, don't know what tbh is, and pronouns are a whole different thing I'll get to in a minute.

Fair criticism of antiendos' extreme positions, and then...

do you think its okay to create tulpas/willogenic systems to cope with trauma and call it traumagenic when its endogenic?

Yes. Their system would not have existed without the trauma, so it's absolutely fair for them to call themselves traumagenic even if their plurality was achieved through typically endogenic/parogenic means. Traumagenic is not a synonym for disordered (though I imagine a tulpa system that formed in conscious response to trauma could get shaken up similarly to a system that formed as an unconscious response to trauma).

do you have an alter that uses pronouns offensive to people with trauma (ive seen someone use rape/rapeself as pronouns)

This is not an endo problem. This appears in young DID systems and singlets, which is an indication that this has nothing to do with plurality. Yes, more pro-endos will go along with it because they're more open in general, but two people who are respectively very much supportive of this and very much against this would be equally pro-endo because this has nothing to do with plurality.

This take is inherited from my host, but neopronouns are stupid. Pronouns are not a mandatory part of the language to begin with. If the short word I'm using to call you instead of your name is unique to you anyway, I can just use your name or a shortened version of it. A caveat to this is that I don't like "they", a typically plural word that we as a plural system especially need, being used as the default enby pronoun. Obviously there are reasons the language has ended up like this but if there is a local agreed-upon alternative like xe, I'm happy to use that.

In an ideal world I would like only gender-neutral singular and plural pronouns but at this point that's at least a century away. Maybe more realistic within my lifetime is abolishing pronouns entirely, because again, they are not mandatory.

Anyway, pronoun rant over, back to syscourse (and back to front).

pro endos are too lenient, theyre too scared to call out misinformation

What are you talking about? Anti-endos spew misinformation left and right to justify their attacks against suspected

fakers

The vast majority of the time, only fakers know they're faking. Sure, there are a lot more than most endos would like to think -- an implosion on r/tulpas a few years ago implies they may be as high as 10-15% of the community -- but it's impossible to be certain from the outside, and why take the risk calling someone out when a false positive could have such awful consequences?

Also, as you already wrote previously, most people, especially anti-endos, don't actually know what's normal for systems, so you just end up in a recursive feedback loop of increasingly restrictive guidelines becoming furtherly detached from reality. The entire reason this divide exists in the first place is because anti-endos incorrectly believe that endos cannot exist because endogenic plurality works differently than theirs. (Assuming somewhat charitably here that anti-endos are mostly systems, which they are. If you're an anti-endo singlet, you have zero personal reasons for discrediting endogenic systems, so fuck you.)

pro endos support anything and think people have the right to identify however they feel no matter how disrespectful it is to other people (like the "i created my system consciously so it didnt develop from trauma but because i created it to deal with trauma im traumagenic!" thing)

At "disrespectful to other people" I expected you to go back to the alters with stupid pronouns, but instead you went to the perfectly reasonable definition of traumagenic‽ No one is getting hurt by a system that formed because of trauma identifying as having been formed because of trauma.

The definition of traumagenic does not include any reference to conscious effects.

From the APA Dictionary of Psychology:

adj. describing or relating to the dynamics by which a traumatic event (e.g., childhood sexual abuse) may have long-term negative consequences, including the development of a mental disorder

From Pluralpedia:

Traumagenic refers to a system whose creation / origin is the result of one or more traumatic events.

So yes, they are fine to use the traumagenic label.

im definitely not anti endo, but i also dont like what most of the pro endos ive seen support or let happen. basically the whole online plural community is exhausting and confusing. and it makes me wish i never knew i was plural.

Easy solutions here:

Avoid syscourse when possible

Don't go along with pro-endos if you think they're being overly inclusive -- but hear them out first.

I think I'm supposed to write a nice little conclusion here, but we were supposed to be counting the ratios of safe space violation in the pro endo and anti endo tags respectively, so I'll let host get back to that and end this here.

the plural community is so toxic. its also very confusing. its stressful, its mentally draining. (note:this rant is not anti endo, even though it seems like it. i just dont like the black-and-white dogmatic structure of the plural community.)

i dont like how the plural community is so divided. and how theres so many stereotypes in it encouraged and/or created by the plural community itself. the anti endo side is all about negativity and gatekeeping. they dont like when systems love their alters, would miss their alters, are friends with some of their alters, do activities in the innerworld or real world with their alters, have shenanigans with their alters, have plenty of fictives or celeb or friend factives, dont have abuser factives, dont dissociate severely all the time, or anything seen as "cringe" especially according to systemscringe. then you have the pro endos and endos themselves who spread positivity, are for systems loving and being friends with their alters, and realize not every system has dissociation all the time and some DID systems dont even dissociate more than half of the time. but some pro endos have also said DID and osdd can develop without trauma if the person is just naturally dissociative enough and that DID and osdd develop from being naturally highly dissociative instead of trauma (when really DID and osdd develop from disorganized attachment/emotional trauma accordion to the theory of structural dissociation.) ive been downvoted and called out for saying DID and osdd can only develop from trauma. and i usually dont fakeclaim people but sometimes peoples alters are just cringe I wonder if they're faking and usually its bc of the anti endo standard but i saw a system have an alter that was supposed to cutesey up autism even more, a tbh creature alter with aw/tism pronouns. i got the ick. they are endos btw. i hate how anti endos make it seem like if youre a "real" DID system you dissociate all the time severely. when the average DID system has a DES score of 48 (ill send the link) meaning the average DID system only dissociates a little less than half of the time. sure some dissociate a little more or a lot more than that, but anti endos are openly exaggerating symptoms and making an exclusionist environment based on what makes them feel valid. pro endos, meanwhile, literally go for anything. do you think DID and osdd develop without trauma? most pro endos seem okay with that. do you think its okay to create tulpas/willogenic systems to cope with trauma and call it traumagenic when its endogenic? pro endos are okay with that. do you have an alter that uses pronouns offensive to people with trauma (ive seen someone use rape/rapeself as pronouns in the endo community and murder victims and their families ive seen kill used as pronouns or disabilities like the aw/tism or wtv thing i saw? theyre ok with that too. pro endos are too lenient, theyre too scared to call out misinformation or even fakers because it might make the endogenic community as a whole look bad, when im ngl it already does. because of the whole "anti endo vs pro endo" the plural community looks like a joke or some dumb trend. both sides are toxic. anti endos spread hate and make unrealistic standards, but pro endos support anything and think people have the right to identify however they feel no matter how disrespectful it is to other people (like the "i created my system consciously so it didnt develop from trauma but because i created it to deal with trauma im traumagenic!" thing) im definitely not anti endo, but i also dont like what most of the pro endos ive seen support or let happen. basically the whole online plural community is exhausting and confusing. and it makes me wish i never knew i was plural.

[alchemist-shizun]

You're a system right? I know this may be quite a bit weird but i really don't know what to do. So i? I think i might be a system, but i never interacted with alters or, anything. Is...switching feeling like someone else? I think i might but this feels so weird and i don't know if i'm me or not and this is kinda terrifying. I greatly apologize for the rushed feeling of this ask, but i really don't follow any other systems and i don't how i would even explain this to someone else. I genuinely feel crazy and like i shouldn't be dealing with these things and people, and my ""own"" name feels so. Wrong. Is this...normal

Hi! Yes I am and don’t worry about asking, I know this is a very tricky and confusing topic so I’m glad you decided to reach out.

I wanna make a premise that DID/OSDD system experiences tend to be very unique and different from one another, so when something can apply to you, it may not apply to someone else and vice versa. (Pointing this out cause denial about faking is very very very common) So don’t worry if you don’t relate to everything you search or I say.

About not interacting with alters, I want to also point out that that is normal, I didn’t talk to them before finding out I was a system, I thought they were kintypes actually, so they left small messages on notes that I could answer to and they would answer when they “shifted”. (Still don’t talk that much to some of them) DID/OSDD are disorders that tend to be imperceptible from the external people because it’s kind of like a protective shell, you feel me? And the alters might not talk to you cause they’re kind of “hiding” from you since it “needs to be a secret” both from you and others, they can keep things from you (like memories of trauma/emotional amnesia), it’s all a “we need to not be noticed and blend in” type of deal, which makes it really difficult to diagnose as well unless it’s very obvious. (in fact, alters may act like you in front of others to preserve the secret)

As for switching, this again is something personal to everybody, for example I saw a system who would yawn everytime they switched, other types are very imperceptible where you wouldn’t even know if they switched unless they told you. Now as of feeling, I for example often kinda feel this push and pull feeling in my stomach, as though someone is telling me they want to or are going to take over for me. I might get light headed as well and usually a headache follows. I have to say ever since I realized I was a system, it’s been a little more clear understanding who is around, I kinda feel their presence closer to front until they straight up talk to me. What you described sounds a lot like that one time I really didn’t know who was fronting, it gets really frustrating and I imagine you got scared, cause you’re like “okay who the heck is here? I can’t understand.”

So yeah obviously I can’t be the one to tell you if you’re a system or not, because that’s up to you understanding whether or not you relate, researching and stuff. What I can tell you is kinda my experience when someone else is fronting, they don’t feel me present at all, they tend to say I’m “having a nap” or I’m resting or I’m far in the back, so not really in control. What’s tricky is that we’re all constantly in co-consciousness (i.e. everybody knows what’s happening in front even if they’re not fronting, we don’t have amnesia between switches), so it’s harder to really be sure whether I’m there around or not if I don’t know who’s fronting. In fact, it can happen that you’re co-fronting sometimes, you can be there in control with someone else.

A small note about the co-consciousness, in case you are an OSDD-1b system like me, when someone else is fronting and then I come back, I do remember everything that happened, but it’s more like when you remember something that someone else told you. Like it’s clear that it didn’t happen to me specifically, but to my alter, but I still know exactly what happened. So the memory could affect my alter more than me. 

The name thing does sound accurate, it can be similar to depersonalization where you don’t really feel like it’s you and if you look in the mirror, you’re like “that’s not me?? what”, or I would look at my hands and it starts feeling so very very weird. Alters have different names, ages, looks and pronouns, so if someone were to call me by one of my alters’ names I’d be like “what wait a minute no I’m Purp/Edric”, and on the same way they would say they aren’t Purp/Edric, they don’t feel my physical appearance to be theirs etc. One thing that may help: often alters have different demeanours from the host and their voice tones may change, so in case you start feeling like that again, you can check for these things. For example I have an alter called Logan, his voice is probably the deepest so far between the ones who have fronted, he usually starts looking more serious as well and uses a little bit of a different vocabulary and accent too (look out for the way of speaking and accent as well other than voice tone change, those are other clear signs).

I’m sorry you felt like that but I can assure you you’re not crazy and these things can definitely happen, you’re not alone in this and you can always reach out to people! So I hope this was somewhat insightful and I want to advise a few things only to help with this: do research, look up DID and OSDD-1b or OSDD-1a to see which one you really relate to and then you can try to go deeper and see if they make sense to your experience. (In case they don’t make sense to you, try looking up depersonalization as well, cause what you described does sound like that kind of dissociation. You also can both be a system and deal with depersonalization btw)

I didn’t think I could ever possibly have an identity disorder cause I thought DID was the only one and I didn’t have amnesia at all, but when I found out about OSDD-1b it was kinda like something had clicked and I was like “wait that’s a thing??”. I’m still in denial sometimes but I work through it, so in case you do realize you’re a system, initial hard denial about faking is totally normal, you can come to me in case you need help with that and I will do my best to validate you!

As for the other piece of advice, I’d say to try and just welcome it, if you feel like you might be switching. Don’t be afraid of it, let it happen, I know it sounds easier said than done but if you think about something too much you end up focusing too much on it and it just doesn’t happen, it is also very dangerous to force it, cause forced switches end up in feeling physically sick (like very painful headaches). Take a deep breath, maybe close your eyes a second and just go “okay, I can sit back for a second”. Finding positive triggers is also a good way to tell alters they’re welcome to come out and hang around if they want.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, I have never really given advice about this before so I didn’t want to say the wrong stuff, I’m not used to it ;w;. I hope this helped in any way and in case you have more questions you can hit me up and I will do my best to answer, my DMs are also always open (might take a while cause my phone’s broken currently) and yeah, whatever answer you find, remember you’re always very very valid, okay? Hope you have a fantastic day!

[moonknight-ep5]

Hello there! You mentioned in a recent post that you headcanon/interpret Caleb as having DID, and that thought never occurred to me but it is? So good? And I would like to hear more about it, if you have more to say on the matter?

i'd love to! this is a long one haha.. (@anonym-potato)

disclaimer

please note that i am only theorizing, and that i am a system host myself, so don't cancel me. also: please don't tag this post as anything relating to the DID/OSDD community in your reblogs! thanks!

key

for future reference in this post, i thought i'd need a key of some kind.

red = personal experiences

orange = scientific evidence

green = assumptions based on canon lore

blue = historical context

pink = minis

headcanons/interpretations

i'm basing this off of the assumption that bren and caleb alone are a system, but there could always be more.

• bren is caleb's alter, despite being the born identity. in my system, host-switches (the act of the title of "host" being given to another alter through constant fronting or a retire of position) are fairly common, one happening every few years. it's completely possible that caleb, through constant fronting (or forced fronting), has adopted the title of "host" from bren, leaving bren nearly powerless to take it back for himself.

• he went to the sanitorium for having DID, not for being insane. throughout history, it has been said that people that were seen as less than neurotypical were sent to asylums and sanitoriums (there's a difference!!) to be "fixed" and to churches to be "exorcised." in d&d, you play as characters in medieval times, where this practice was most prevalent. to medical professionals at the time, seeing a switch of any caliber could yield "unstable" behavior, which could've lead to his hospitalization. maybe he was insane when he left, but he definitely wasn't when he went in.

the eleven years. the time spent in the sanitorium is entirely blocked off from his mind, and nearly impossible, even with caleb's eclectic memory, to recall. DID has few requirements, yes, but arguably one of the most important symptoms is dissociative amnesia. this amnesia occurs during high stress situations that can constitute as trauma or while one isn't fronting, both of which are caused by dissociation (directly or indirectly). for the purposes of these theories, i'd say it's a mixture of the two.

the "cure." while caleb was recalling his time at the hospital, he remembered that there was a woman that helped him get rid of the "cloudiness" from his mind. DID is a trauma based disorder caused by amnesia. "getting rid" of his trauma would cause amnesia. keeping his trauma would cause amnesia. it's a paradox with no happy ending. as a result, all the woman got rid of, in my opinion, was his vegetative state. this is why there are still times where you could conclude that caleb is still unstable. there's many of these moments in c2 so i'd rather not sift through them all.

• DID and its causes. intense, repeated traumatic experiences during childhood/early adolescence (around 7-11, with a few years error) causes DID. according to the timeline of his backstory, he was approached by the representatives of the soltryce academy at around 9 years old, which means he started working with ikithon at 10. this puts him just under the threshold of the most apparent developmental stage for this disorder.

• "caleb widogast" seems like such a fake name, not even with alias standards.

• caleb has been seen dissociating for hours at a time. if you're new to the program: after fights where he gets a hdywtdt on a humanoid while using pyromancy, caleb has to make a wisdom saving throw to avoid dissociation. this dissociation could last for hours, whether it be active dissociation (blankness while doing menial tasks) or full dissociation (unable to move, talk, or think). only something intense could snap him out of it, whether it be a slap of the face or a kiss on the head (that scene lives rent free in my head).

• some of caleb's attributes are changed from time to time. caleb likes a lot of things: bread, the scraggly hobo life, books, and numbers, to name a few, though there are times where some of these likes get shifted into obsessions, where caleb likes spellcasting, but bren loves the idea of staying up late and working on a spell with no sleep (and that counts as a point of exhaustion for both of them, not just one, because they share the body and therefore have to take care of it). it's not either of their faults, its just how they were conditioned during the time of their trauma.

• caleb has canonically talked to himself in the third person.

• constant polymorphs and shapeshifting alters. in my system, there is a veth fictive that can shapeshift between "veth" and "nott." she has admitted to using this ability to stay "front-stuck" (where an alter physically cannot switch out) because she can't switch when out of her "true form." now think of it like this: caleb and polymorph, especially in recent history. there's a tag going around, reading "*polymorphs into a creature to stupid to be depressed*" in reference to caleb's now constant use of the spell. it could just be us, but its still something to think about.

• there has been a "switch" in canon. i mentioned in the original post that there was a scene in canon where caleb has been seen switching, as a result of a confrontation from trent ikithon and the cerberus assembly. (don't mind the watermark im not rich)

this is a switch as a result of an auditory trigger. the hearing of one's name, a song, or even a random word adversely connected to trauma can be considered an auditory trigger. hearing bren's name, especially from trent, caused caleb to get immediately defensive and angry. when the camera pans back to caleb after everyone's reactions, you see him hyperventilating slightly with a face of worry, shut his eyes tight, and open them with a slack face to get a sense of his surroundings. he also leans near beau, someone who he could ask for context or reason, but then thinks against it as he remembers: they don't know.

[system-of-a-feather]

I do like this being brought up without the completely valid controversies around it and I'd like to have some thoughts put around as well so I'll put this on my blog with my opinion and invite others to do so.

I don't know if @ylva-vordr minds / their boundaries on it, but bad faith, aggressive and "debate / arguing" replies to my post will be ignored and likely blocked. I am open to discussion, not whatever goes on most of the time on here.

A) First, when do we think reducing stigma crosses the line into sensationalism* and romanticization*?  *Mildly modified words / spelling fixes

Honestly to me the moment occurs when the information is no longer serving a direct educational / illustrative purpose and instead moves solely to be entertaining, click bait, or - for lack of better words - a gimmick. If the content is either directly meant to be educational and not entertaining, that's good. If the content is meant to be about some random hobby they have while having DID, that is good. But if the content is "Someone with DID doing a Thing" then it starts falling into sensationalism and that is when I tend to have personal gripes on since DID is easy to sensationalize and use for clicks, attention, and monetization.

Showing switches can be educational if done right, but using it as "SWITCH CAUGHT ON CAMERA!!!!" and most of the tiktok DID trends and all just.... It's hard to put a firm line in the mud verbally / with words, but theres not really a need to draw focus on the "fantastical aspects" that while not innately "stigmatizing" and "negative" are already huge parts of the media-driven sensational stereotype people with DID have.

If that is how your system presents that's totally fair, cool, awesome and all - but is the video being posted "going about life and a switch occurs cause thats just how things are and this is a normal thing" or is it "Oh my God! I switched! Watch me CHANGE personalities!!!"

I think "Meet my alters" are innocent enough though I guess and are like the only exception of the top of my head to "DID focused 'entertainment' content" cause that inherently has a lot more educational / normalizing value than stuff like switching videos and all.

Not a huge thing i've directly parsed my line about so I'm open to feed back and questions and adjusting it, but generally I don't think you are reducing stigma as much as changing negative sensationality to "positive" sensationality when you make DID-focused Entertainment Content.

B) Under what circumstances do we think self-diagnosis is appropriate, and how can we assist those who have gone down that route? 

I think Self-Diagnosis is generally appropriate in any case where there is any reasonable reason someone can not get evaluated by and treated by a professional (financial, lack of qualified specialists, stigma, social environment, living situation, mental health conditions that make it difficult).

I think it is important to do good research in both peer communities where you can sit down with others who do have it and discuss it (not one way "peer communities" where the dynamic is parasocial / only acknowledged in a singular direction) as well as official and reputable diagnostic / research information.

There are thousands upon thousands of reasons why one might not be able to get diagnosed / treated so I am never the type to shun self diagnosis.

That said, I think its important for those that are self diagnosed to hold some space for the idea that they may be wrong, especially with DID / OSDD which can be hard to diagnose in general due to over lap in symptoms and similar appearances to other disorders which can be affected by dissociation and general egosyntonic symptoms that could hinder an individual as being an unbiased judge of themselves.

I think the "whatever you feel is always valid and true" while in good intentions and very helpful in some cases, it can be a very dangerous absolute to push because it backs people who might not be sure, who might not have the disorder but feel too deep in, into a corner where it is harder for them to authentically realize they are wrong and feel safe coming out that they were wrong (Which is TOTALLY fine!)

I also think for those that are self diagnosed and probably do have it / continue to think they have it / continue to have it and then get diagnosed, its important to just have open conversations on how things are in a non-sensationalized manner as to keep things open, normalized, and educational / helpful / productive. I think its important for those that find that the self diagnosis WORKS for them and helps them to be open to non-professional peer-to-peer notes on how to live and get by with it WITHOUT having all the sparkles and "OWO SWITCH CAUGHT ON CAMERA!" that serves more to an audience that doesn't have the disorder than those that do.

Anyways, these are just some of my loose thoughts on the matter. No real major claim. Interested to hearing other's additions.

Having watched the McLean Hospital video with regards to DID and a rise in self-diagnosis, there are some things I feel we should definitely be discussing. 

A) First, when do we think reducing stigma crosses the line into sensationalisation and romanisation? 

B) Under what circumstances do we think self-diagnosis is appropriate, and how can we assist those who have gone down that route? 

I do not, under any circumstances, condone the use of third party media as a way to prove a point, particularly without permission.