#httyd wiki

[10blue10]

HTTYD continuity: Are there two Hiccups?

First of all, thank you for all the likes and reblogs on my ‘there are two Hiccups’ post. It’s seriously blowing my mind how popular it is. So, if you read it and thought “what? There are two Hiccups?”

Well, no… but actually yes. I wasn’t being literal (I know, on the reading comprehension website? Shame on me), but the thing is, I’m actually kind of right? Just look at these examples from the wiki:

The entire series is based on the six main Dragon Riders moving away from Berk for over a year. However, in commentary, Dean DeBlois has said that they all lived on Berk between the first two films. The second film’s Art Book elaborates on this saying that they all had responsibilities on Berk which prevented them from leaving.

In other words, as far as Dean is concerned, RTTE never happened.

The series also focuses on the six main Dragon Riders exploring lands outside the Archipelago together, while both Dean and the second film’s Art Book state that only Hiccup and Astrid ventured outside the Archipelago as they were the ones drawing up Hiccup's map. The other four stayed much closer to Berk.

Again, we have a direct contradiction between what Dean claims happened pre-HTTYD2 in his (head)canon, and what we see in RTTE.

Numerous other "dragon riders" are introduced throughout the series, when the second and third films themselves stress how Berk is the only community who rides dragons. Dean elaborated on this during a convention panel explaining that that’s why Eret and Drago were so alarmed when seeing Vikings riding on dragons, and why Eret assumed Valka was one of them.

In an interview with the series creators Art Brown and Douglas Sloan, it was mentioned that the show was originally meant to have 4 seasons, spread out over the span of a year and a half, leading up to the second film. Following the many clues and mentions regarding the passage of time within the story, the last 7 episodes of season 4 were supposed to have happened during the same summer as the film. However, when seasons 5 and 6 were ordered into production, the show writers had to carry on with the timeline they had set up, which inevitably lead to the series continuing into negative time; going past the second film.

In other words, the last two seasons of RTTE aren’t meant to take place before HTTYD2 - they take place after it. If there’s better proof that RTTE is on its own separate timeline, I don’t know what that is.

The majority of film characters are portrayed severely out-of-character in the series compared to the films and film-verse media; most arguably Hiccup and Astrid. Aside from having similar appearance and even voices, their personalities and behaviors in the series portray them as drastically different people than their film counterparts.

I would argue that they are more in character during RTTE, especially Snotlout, the twins and Fishlegs. Isn’t it amazing what being fleshed out characters instead of comic relief can do? But there you have it. RTTE!Hiccup is portrayed as drastically different to his film counterpart. When push comes to shove, there are two Hiccups.

Or, you know, three, if we count the one from the books 😂.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to get back to lamenting the fact we live in the timeline where THW exists and not the timeline where the writers of RTTE were allowed to make a full length conclusion movie.

[brooks-heart-sunglasses]

So so so endearing to me how despite Hookfang being the largest and most intimidating of the gangs’ dragons he’s also so gentle towards hatchlings and the most protective over eggs and nests like it’s so sweet…

[toasterdrake]

the fact that hiccup, despite being taller than the average viking height and tallest in his friend group, is actually still a runt when in the perspective of 'product of his giant parents', is hilarious

httyd1 hiccup: aww fml i'm so small and weak compared to my peers :(

httyd2 hiccup: my dad's almost 7 foot it counts ok

also that so he has something intimidating to overcome they keep making the villains massive. these people should be topping out before 6 foot

[spacenintendogs]

u do not need context to understand what is happening

[vehemourn]

found

[eemoo1o-tfrmoo]

[eemoo1o]

Um. What the fuck.

[ominousgradient]

Snotlout

[squaric-acid]

Can anyone tell me why there is so much hostility in the comments of the Inconsistencies Within the Franchise page on the HTTYD fandom wiki?

I know THW was divisive but dang

[nightfury-2001]

i feel mild disappointment in this chili’s tonight

Iirc this ask was from back when The Nine Realms was first announced and just. Yeah. 7 seasons in and most of what I've seen from that show is not very good

[amyrafierceblade]

Does anybody know how tall Buzzsaw is??

[zoomzooml]

Redesign concepts of Webmaster and Feathers

After a year

WEBMASTER

My biggest problem with the Webmaster design is how cluttered it seems; there's just a lot going on here. So I tried to calm it down a bit; I took away one pair of legs to make him less cluttered but keep (more or less) original body lenght. And I know that in his episode Jun says “if something has eight legs, she doesn't like it,” refering to spiders, but I think eight limbs works too.

I also played around a bit with his colors and markings. As well as body structure and proportions, noting this dragon's show-off skill - spinning webs.

When he puffs up his “cheeks” just before he spits, you can hear a sticky, mushy sound - you know that something is going on inside. The muscles are moving and pushing something with a sticky, gluey consistency. I would like it to be somewhat repulsive.

When he spits silk in attack it does not come out as big ball of burning web. It's more like net in "V" shape, in form of many separate threads of silk shooted at the same time. Similar to actual spiders, but on the bigger scale. His webs also don't burn; I feel like it's an overkill.

I changed the arrangement of his forelegs slightly. I know it's not quite in line with the style of HTTYD (see Speed Spingers' front limbs) but in his case I think arranging his hands in a similar way to therizinosaurus gives him a more menacing look.

Deadly Spinners are dragons that give a very unpleasant first impression. They are not the most beautiful dragons around (at least not by the standard) and their behavior can be repulsive to some. The type of dragon that people are willing to pin an unfriendly, sometimes unfair patch on more easily than on other dragons - as many people do with spiders or snakes and other similiar animals.

Deadly Spinners don't live in large groups - either small groups or solo. But when they are in a group they have very close bonds and spend a lot of time socializing among themselves.

FEATHERS

She is a challenge to me, not gonna lie. She definitely is the most changed among my redesigns so far. She just seems very basic to me.

The most bothering thing to me about her are those "feathers". Because, Alex in s1ep3 calls these "feathers", as well as Olivia in s5ep2, wiki calls these "feathers-like scales", but they can move and are thick what implies they are more like Furies'/Night Light's head numbs? I absolutely can pass the crowns as feathers, but Queen's horns and holes in her meaty tail were here the last straw to not to

And yes, I made a shitty video because I'm really confused and wanted that confusion express lmao. I hope Tumblr won't take it down.

So idk, I wanted to clarify what the frick those things are and go from there. I had two main ideas - either give her actual feathers or quills similiar to those of Bewilderbeast. When drawning I wasn't sure about either idea but finally decided for the latter one. Feels more HTTYD-like I think? And very flammable feathers don't seem like the best survival choice when almost every other animal around can spit fire.

I reimagine Featherhides as way more nervous and skittish dragons. Changewings were mysterious but usually seemed calm and strategical. Featherhides' nature is more in type of "flee" than "fight" (tho they can get so smoke when needed, they are not defensless or smth). They are very easy to spook and sometimes will flee in panic from something very trival just to return seconds later when they realise there was no danger at all, or are curious of whatever scared them. They often make rapid little movements, much like birds - especially if something catches their eye and they are not sure what it is.

Featherhides also live in large flocks without a complex hierarchy. If they can - they run, if any of them can't - at least some of them also stay behind.

Once Feathers bonds with Alex she would be very protective of her little human.

When Featherhides mimic sounds they do not do weird things with their faces like in the show. It looks much more like like some birds do that. But that's just a sidenote.

[revive-the-fandom]

The Dragon Hunters

First, to cover everything we learned of the Hunters excluding Johann's involvement:

The Hunters have been around for "generations" which according to wiki is 20 - 30 years per generation, making the hunters at least 40 years old, likely older. We know this because Ingar Ingerman's techniques have been used by Hunters for "generations".

(The fact that Fishlegs is unaware of Ingar's existence implies that he was either ancient, and "generations" refers to great-great grandparents or older, or that Fishleg's family broke away and purposefully forgot/didn't teach/lied to their children of their true family origin)

This age of the Hunters was also implied by Viggo, whose grandfather is mentioned as being either Hunter or Hunter adjacent many times in the series. Him playing as the Marauder and not the Viking Chief in Maces and Talons also suggests that he was a Hunter.

Making the age of the Dragon Hunters closer to 80 years. This is calculated using the average age for Httyd Vikings having children being 25 (Valka was 20, Stoick was 30 their average is 25, Hiccup and Astrid were both 25 when Zephyr was born) + Ryker and Viggo (the youngest known generation) being at least 30 or older.

This also makes Viggo a nepo baby/inheritor of the Hunter's legacy/throne/chiefdom etc rather than simply the best tactition there (this is of course, ignoring that Ryker is actually first in line as it seems that until RTTE he was happy for Viggo to take charge, possibly even waiving his claim for Viggo - or in a less happy circumstance, was forced to waive the chiefdom by his parents/grandfather).

as for the dragon eye:

it's belonged to Viggo's tribe for centuries, and Viggo feels slighted by the loss of it. So we know that this is personal to Viggo's family/tribe regardless as to whether Viggo's tribe is the Dragon Hunters, is what became the Dragon Hunters, or if it was only the ancestors of a few Dragon Hunters (Ryker and Viggo).

This brings the possible age of the Hunters up to 200 - 300 years, as long as Berk has been settled/fighting Dragons. Or this is just their origin, when Viggo's clan settling in the region before becoming full blown Hunters.

we also know that Viggo knows the ins and outs of the Dragon Eye's construction, more so than even Ryker.

so it's possible that this information was passed down through the leadership of the Hunters, or more specifically, to the inheritor of Viggo's tribe's chiefdom. Both suggest that Viggo's grandfather may have been the one to impart this knowledge onto Viggo, as we also have the implication that Viggo inherited his intelligence (and love for Maces and Talons) from his grandfather.

The Dragon Eye going missing also seems to imply that the Hunters were felled/disbanded/forced into exile at some point, and Viggo and Ryker are only just now restoring them from the ground up - possibly in their grandfather's name. This is also where ym headcanon that Viggo at least used to live in/grew up in York/Jorvik comes from, as it would explain his english accent (ok, in the context of the show.. not real life as this accent wouldnt exist).

we also get a little insight into why the Hunters had this dark age/disbandment through Viggo's fall from power - the Grimborn's have no loyalty/regard for others and a short violent temper:

and viggo's focus on only his own pride

which is more than likely what killed them - the people rising up or abandoning them. which is technically what happened to Viggo, both through Ryker's betrayal, and the Hunters leaving him for dead.

Ryker's betrayal makes more sense when considering that he was the people's man.

the Hunter's purpose, why they exist as a group, is to earn money. there is also additional themes of conquering the unconquerable, power and control, and genuine service to a people threatened by beasts.

The Hunters may have originally formed as a warrior group that worked as a sort of pest control, their methods for dragon killing are better and more refined than any other villain we see in the series, including the movies and grimmel as the movie villains seem more interested and successful in capturing and forcing dragons into a slave army than they ever are in killing anything.

the Hunters may then have begun using, or even spearheaded the use of dragon parts in clothing, materials, weapons etc. which might have earned them more money than pest control, leading to them using auctions and markets as their primary source of income.

their use of dragon root seems to be standard knowledge + practicality as Berk knows what dragon root is they just didn't refine it or use it in the same way.

their ships are confusing as they're mulltihull ships that are more in line with what Drago sails than what the vikings sail. this is confusing as Drago's ships are destinctive because he comes from elsewhere in the world and has travelled far to reach Berk. the Hunters ships seem to be stolen from Drago's fleet. perhaps suggesting a raid or battle, or even defection - but this doesnt fit with Krogan's arrival and their attitude towards their "buyer" (Drago).

To me the ships seem to be a bit of an oversight. an inconsistency that wasnt supposed to be thought about because they were just recycling assets (in the same way that Ryker is a recycled Drago design).

so s4 ends with the death of the Hunters in Shell Shocked: Viggo and Ryker are fighting each other and the majority of the Hunters have fled to Ryker's side (he is the people's man after all). Ryker is killed, viggo is injured presumed dead, the Hunters are all but destroyed (again)

months go by and Krogan gathers up the remnants of the Hunters and forces them (penalty of death) to become his flyers.

Krogan's motivations are to bring success to Drago, in rtte's instance this seems to be through providing a Bewilderbeast for Drago.

Krogan seems to have thought that the Hunters are his best bet for finding a bewilderbeast, or gathering the resources to do it himself. He's known as a big buyer by Viggo and Ryker, so has only met them briefly if at all. He seems to have scoped out the Hunters in Auction Heroes and Midnight Scrum and decided that Viggo and Ryker are below him.

Krogan then apporaches Viggo and explains how he's usurped the Hunters and trained his flyers.

Krogan then offers Viggo the resources to recover the Dragon Eye from the volcano so that Viggo can keep ahold of his tribal artefact and potentially rebuild his empire, in return for his help in finding and capturing the King of Dragons/Bewilderbeast. Krogan gets access to Viggo's intelligence, and Viggo gets access to Krogan's resources.

Viggo's motivation seems to remain power, wealth and pride.

Viggo and Krogan crucially neglect to follow Ryker's example, they don't care for their men or armies, which ultimately leads to their downfall yet again:

Viggo obviously has his epiphany moment where his worldview is flipped and he learns to respect dragons, perhaps as a reflection on his relationship with his brother, and how his brother chose companionship and loyalty over wealth and power.

Krogan's armies are repeatedly defeated via their singetails not being loyal to the flyers.

Viggo dies as part of his redemption and Krogan is murdered for not realising his.

which explains the Hunters and everything we know about them excluding Johann. but now lets add Johann into the picture:

given all we know of the Hunters and the implications from Viggo that he inherited the leader position or revitalised it, it's unlikely that Johann was the "true" leader or secretly the leader of the Hunters. That position remains with Viggo and Ryker.

and we know that Krogan is both working for Drago and has usurped the Hunters through force. so Johann has no part in that either.

Johann himself says that he's paying them, so there's no loyalty to him outside of money.

there's so many issues with Johann so let's just start with his statements in In Plain Sight

Johann reveals his motivation is to find the King of Dragons which he believes is the key to his wealth and power

so all Johann wants is power and money, which he thinks the King of Dragons will get him. it's unclear if Johann plans to sell the bewilderbeast to Krogan (who gives it to Drago) or if he's oblivious to Krogan's motivations and just thinks he's there for the gold he's paying him.

I think it might be the latter because in King of Dragons Krogan betrays him twice, attempting to kill him. first by not warning him to dodge the bewilderbeasts ice, and then by stealing the egg and fleeing and leaving Johann to fight the bewilderbeast and hiccup and toothless alone.

Johann claims to have been working against the riders since Breakneck Bog

which happens in the first ever season, Riders of Berk, and is only Johann's second appearance, which I believe is an oversight from the writers as his first appearance 8 episodes prior had him sell poisonous flowers to Mildew who poisoned the dragons on Berk. was he not also behind that? that was actually much more villainous than Breakneck bog as he spent that episode begging them not to go there, stranded at sea, and then he loses all of his wares and gold.

this tirade against the Riders is more suspicous as his third appearance has him sneak the Berkians onto Outcast Island to rescue Hiccup.

his fourth has him stuck in a frozen sea, rescued by Hiccup and Toothless and then stranded on Berk with the speed stingers until the ice thaws.

his fifth has him sell smokebreath infested metal to Berk from Dagur. which, again, is more villainous that Breakneck Bog as it destroys Berk's armoury and comes directly from Dagur.

Johann also facilitated Dagur's escape, but, once again got stranded at sea. it makes you wonder just how good of a swimmer he is to have this much trust in his plans to incorporate getting stranded this many times.

these two I have less complaints about in the "bad plan" department but they do cause some bumps with the "when did Johann ally the Hunters" question.

His speech to Hiccup, mentioning Breakneck Bog, suggests that he's been involved since Riders of Berk, when they were 15 - 16 yros. but his reaction to Viggo and Viggo's reaction to him in Last Auction Heroes is extremely weird if this is true:

theres no need for any of these theatrics if they're in league with each other. if they are in league with each other here then Viggo should either be expecting Johann, and understand that the Riders are likely plotting something. or he should have some sort of communication with Johann that suggests they know each other, or that Johann can't talk freely else he'll blow his cover.

the way this scene in Auction Heroes plays out makes it seem as though Viggo has no idea who Johann is, and that Johann is still playing the long game by being deep undercover.

so when did Johann and Viggo actually join up?

I believe Dagur joined sometime around Have Dragon Will Travel as that's when he gets the dragon proof metal, which is associated with the Hunters alone.

Heather likely joined soon after.

but Johann doesn't seem to start acting suspicious or in league with the Hunters until s5, in Sandbusted. as his last appearance in s4 is Dire Straits, where he is the only survivor and near victim of the submarriper.

if he was in league with the Hunters at this point, why would he sail directly over the submapripper, planted specifically by the Hunters. if he was in league he could have just watched from a distance to check it was working, or have the Hunters themselves check.

Sandbusted has him send the Riders on a mission to find what's killing the merchants (sandbuster) which could easily be a trap set by him to separate the riders and get them killed off (hiccup specifically).

Dawn of Destruction has him separate Hiccup and Astrid from the Riders and the Edge immediately before the flyers attack. which also works perfectly fine for someone in league with them.

everything in s5 works towards the plot twist that Johann is secretly working with Viggo and Krogan. so it seems most likely that Johann joined between s4 and s5, after Ryker's death and the Hunters disbandment. He may even have paid Krogan to build the flyers and recruit Viggo to help him track down the King of Dragons.

He would need Krogan to bring skill and ruthlessness and to be a leader more interested in the results than the game. Viggo to bring his knowledge, experience and most importantly the Dragon Eye to track down the King of Dragons.

This would explain why Johann seems so out of the loop in Dire Straits and Auction Heroes, as he wouldn't have been allied or privy to the Hunter's plans. and he would still be undercover from Viggo and the Hunters as a whole.

His actions prior to this, such as Riders, Defenders, and Have Dragon Will Travel were likely his own plans, independent of anyone else's influence (and yes, i still think they're stupid plans as he ends up stranded at sea, losing massive swaths of his wealth which we have established is his entire motivation, and needed rescues from dragons a fucking lot).

the outlier here that I struggle to fit in is Edge of Disaster, as he pulls the Riders away from the Edge right as the Hunters attack. this happens in s2, long before he theoretically join in s5.

my best guess is that the Hunters, possibly with Dagur or Heather's help, were trying to use Johann as a distraction. Johann, being intelligent and hating the Riders might have seen this opportunity and "fallen" for the Hunter's trap/distraction - this might have involved the Hunters herding him towards the Dragon Nest.

However, this doesn't explain why Johann wouldn't blame the Hunters for forcing him into the Dragon's path, as it would take the blame/suspicion off of him for writing to Hiccup that he was under attack by the Hunters.

so to recap:

the Hunters likely evolved from Viggo and Ryker's clan, they may have stolen their multihull ship design from a section of Drago's army at some point. the Dragon Eye was created and their grandfather likely held a chief/leader position before the original Hunters were destroyed, likely because of the Grimborn's lack of loyalty to their crew and/or family. The Dragon Eye was lost and the Hunters disbanded, Viggo and Ryker ending up miles from home, possibly Jorvik.

Viggo and Ryker re-establish the Hunters, with Ryker giving Viggo the leadership role. They pick up allies in the Archipelago, Dagur most predominantly, followed by Heather, who recount to them that the Dragon Eye has been found and is being held by the Riders.

Viggo and Ryker then begin their war with the Riders, but Viggo falls into the same trap his ancestors did and forgets to value his crew or family. Ryker usurps the Hunters with the crew's support, but it ends in disaster and Ryker is killed, the Dragon Eye lost and Viggo injured.

Johann realises the potential of the Hunters now that they've disbanded and pays Krogan to recruit Viggo to use the Dragon Eye and rebuild the Hunters (under Krogan's command) to find and sell the King of Dragons.

or at least, that's the best that I can understand the Hunters?

[eemoo1o-tfrmoo]

AHHHH.

[companion-of-the-dragonmark]

When Was the First Kingdom of the Wilderwest Built? (HTTYD Books)

Hello, my fellow Dragonmarkers! It's been awhile! As promised, here's the article concerning the plausible timeline of the Kingdom of the Wilderwest. This article was actually a very old one of mine that I had written during this month in 2018. Why didn't I post it on here? Because I wasn't on Tumblr until 2020. And by then, I had forgotten to post this on here. Whoops. Teehee. 😜

When did Hiccup the First end the First Human-Dragon War and built the First Kingdom of the Wilderwest?

Many fans just go with what Wodensfang says in Book 11, supporting the 1000-Year Dynasty mentioned in Book 11 rather than the 500-700-Year Dynasty suggested in Book 9. In fact, it's everywhere in the HTTYD Wiki. I guess it's because fans view Book 11 to be more accurate because it's a later book? I don't know; maybe I'm thinking too hard about this.

But I want to talk through this and thoroughly go through the pros and cons of both sides of the argument and do this right. I'd love to know what you guys think about this.

Anyway, on to the topic!  

Possible Contradiction?:

In the First Book — the Book that we're all familiar with — in Chapter 6, Page 68, says that:

"The Dragon (speaking of the Green Death) had crawled down into the depths of the ocean and had gone into a Sleep Coma. Dragons can stay in this suspended state for eternity, half-dead, half-alive, buried under fathom after fathom of icy-cold seawater. Not a muscle of this particular Dragon had moved for six or seven centuries."

Wodensfang's account of Hiccup the First in Book 9 "How to Steal a Dragon's Sword", on Chapter 12, Page 203, seems to probably confirm this when he says: "Five or six centuries ago, when I was young, it was a very dark age, and the dragons and humans were at war."

He goes on further explanation in Page 208 concerning the Green Death: "...Merciless flew to the north, and to the Open Sea. He lived so long a loner that perhaps over the centuries he forgot his youth as leader of a dragon army and became quite an ordinary killer. Rumor was that several hundred years later, he was known only as the Green Death, one of the many monsters that terrorize the Deep Sea."

So you're probably saying, "Great! There it is! There's your answer! It was 600-700 years ago! Problem solved, right?"

Wrong.

In Book 11 "How to Betray a Dragon's Hero", on Chapter 6, Page 98, Wodensfang tells the story of how the Dragonmark came to be, as well as a more detailed history of the Kingdom of the Wilderwest and the story of Grimbeard the Ghastly as a boy, and how he changed the Mark. 

He says at the beginning of the story: "Once upon a time, Hiccup, a thousand or so years ago, when I was young and about the size of a Saber-Toothed Driver Dragon, I met your ancestor, Hiccup Horrendous Haddock the First, and I gave him the Dragon Jewel and trusted him with the Jewel's Secret."

In Page 100, Wodensfang repeats this by saying: "For over a thousand years, it seemed like I had made the right decision to entrust the Secret of the Dragon Jewel to the humans."

I know right? I'm as confused as you are! Didn't he say in Book 9 that it was "five or six centuries ago"? Maybe even SEVEN centuries ago? Why the change? Did he suddenly get the Dragon equivalent of memory loss due to old age? Does he not know how to count?

Here's the confusing thing: if he was rounding, this might explain it. But the thing is that you can do it with small numbers, but as the number gets bigger, you can't round up in great jumps.

(Warning: Math Ahead!)

For example, say that the number is 8, you round it up to 10 (in certain circumstances) because 8 is closer to 10 than 5. However, if it's 6, then you have to round down to 5 because 6 is closer to 5. The only time that it doesn't is when you're rounding up in percentages (55.678594375 would be 56, for example).

You can't round up to 1000 years from 600, or even 700. That's too high of a jump. Especially when you're telling a historical account. For one thing, it's inaccurate, and for another, it's lazy. And it'll spread lots of confusion.

<><><><><><><><><><>

A Roman Piece to a Nordic Puzzle | The Hint's in the Roman Numerals: 

So then, which is it? Was the Kingdom of the Wilderwest built 600-700 years ago or 1000-odd years ago? 

First off, allow me to redirect your attention once more to the references concerning the Green Death (also known as Merciless):

The Green Death Takes His Tea by Crownflame on DeviantArt

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"The Dragon (speaking of the Green Death) had crawled down into the depths of the ocean and had gone into a Sleep Coma. Dragons can stay in this suspended state for eternity, half-dead, half-alive, buried under fathom after fathom of icy-cold seawater. Not a muscle of this particular Dragon had moved for six or seven centuries." 

And this one:

  ". . .Merciless flew to the north, and to the Open Sea. He lived so long a loner that perhaps over the centuries he forgot his youth as leader of a dragon army and became quite an ordinary killer. Rumor was that several hundred years later, he was known only as the Green Death, one of the many monsters that terrorize the Deep Sea." 

According to these two quotes concerning the Dragon Merciless, it would appear that the events were about roughly 600 years ago. The problem is that the first quote says he had been in a Sleep Coma for six or seven centuries. I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem like a lot of time to me for him to have forgotten his past and about his nemesis Hiccup. It sounds like in the latter quote, Merciless lived and journeyed alone for a long time — about 100-200 years or more — before he fell into a Sleep Coma.

What might help support this is the mention of what he had eaten in Book 1, Page 129: "He was awake now, and he had coughed up the last thing he had eaten, the Eagle Standard of the Eighth Legion, with its pathetic ribbons still flying bravely."

Now, yes, the HTTYD books are exaggeratory and any historical references are "purely coincidental," and that the Roman Dragonrustlers were about during Hiccup the Third's time (but after Book 3 was said to have fled back to Rome — which is inaccurate because Hiccup's time was during the Viking Age, over 300 years after the fall of the Roman Empire. However, I have a theory that'll explain that in the future). 

But what if we DID get historical here? According to history, the only 8th Legion in Roman history was the Legio VIII Augusta, one of the oldest Roman legions in Rome's history (along with the Legio VI Feratta, Legio VII Claudia, and the (in)famous Legio IX Hispana). They were stationed in Gaul (modern France) near the modern-day Strasbourg area (called Argentoratum in Roman times). It was founded in 65 BC by Julius Caesar during the Gaul Wars. It continued service presumedly until either before or until the Fall of Rome (400-500 AD). 

Of course, since it continued service until that time period, then it's impossible for the Green Death to have eaten the Legion, right?

As Old Wrinkly used to say: "It's not im-POSSIBLE, only im-PROBABLE. The only thing that limits us are the limits to our imaginations." 

So, taking this sagely advice, let's think about this carefully.

According to Roman history, the Eighth Legion was disbanded during the first of Rome's Civil Wars (called Caesar's Civil War and the conflict was between Caesar and Scipio) soon after the Battle and Siege of Thapsus (modern-day Tunisia) in 46 BC for unknown reasons. It was reconstituted in 44 BC by Caesar's adopted son Augustus for Caesar's veterans who had loyally served him and helped him defeat Mark Antony and gain power as Rome's first Emperor.

So basically, there's a two-year gap between the disbandment and the reinstation of the Eighth Legion, which means that Merciless could've easily have eaten the Legion during that time and nobody would've been the wiser, and when Augustus reinstated the Legion two years later, he filled the ranks with other veterans who had served Caesar and Augustus.

What do you think? Plausible?

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Possible Connection to Dragon-Aging and Dates in the Book of Dragons:

Now, in Book 1, in the back of the How to Train Your Dragon book that Hiccup reads (similar to the Book of Dragons in the film) in Chapter 4 on Page 53-58, it says that the last stamped due-date was on "16 May 866 AD". The first and second due-dates stamped on there before that were "10 June 789 AD" and "9 April 835 AD".

However, there's no mention of when that book was borrowed, or when it was returned, or the gap between the date and when Gobber the Belch had burgled it from the Meathead "Public" Library. The Hooligans seemed to have had the book for a while. So the current date of the time of Hiccup's first memoir could be anywhere from 866-900 AD — if not later! 

Suffering Scallops, it could even be in the 1000s AD!!! In Book 7, Hiccup writes in his epilogue that: "Now I am an old, old man, and the world that I created has no need for dragons. They have retreated from the civilization that I brought, along with the wolves, and the Berserks, and the monsters of my childhood."

In 1015 AD, Berserkers were outlawed, and the practice of "going berserk" as a profession and the rituals involving their cults were forbidden until by the turn of the 12th century, Berserkers had all but disappeared from human history. The end of the Viking Age was considered to be between 1066-1100 AD, so, scallops, Hiccup could very well have lived during this time.

(This could explain the crossbows in the TV series, as they were beginning to show up around this time, as well as Hiccup's quote in the first film: "300 years and I'm the first Viking who wouldn't kill a dragon!") 

And, in Book 12, Hiccup also explains in his epilogue that Sea-Dragons like Toothless can live for thousands of years, so maybe 1000-year period might be correct? There's no mention about the other sea dragons, apparently, so I guess they don't live nearly as long?

The problem is the period of growth in the Sea-Dragons. Wodensfang was probably of-age by the time he meets Hiccup the First, and he was "the size of a Saber-Toothed Driver Dragon" then. Then, as the decades and centuries went by and the Kingdom prospered, he grew to be "as large as a mountain". Then he says that hundreds of years ago, he began to "shrink in old age", as Sea-Dragons are small in young and old ages, but in adult stages they're colossal, until he shrunk to the "size of a large Viking hunting dog (probably a Norwegian Elkhound, which lived during this time and was used mainly as a guard and hunting dog)" during the time of Grimbeard the Ghastly. By Hiccup the Third's time a hundred years later, he shrunk to the size of Toothless.

Furious was still considered a baby during Hiccup the Second's time, but grew to be the size of a small elephant. Then 100 years later, he became the size of a mountain, when it doesn't seem that Wodensfang grew that big that quickly (though, to be fair, the Berserks had been feeding him well with human sacrifices for the past 100 years, among other foods, so he probably grew to be that big because of it.) He must've had an early growth spurt. lol 😂

That being said, the reason Furious and Wodensfang have different growing speeds may be likely due to Furious having been fed well since his hatchling days. Whereas it's hinted by Wodensfang himself that he's had a difficult life in his younger days, which is one of the reasons he joins Merciless' rebellion against the Vikings. So the struggle for food could've stunted his growth until he met Hiccup the First later on, at which point he grew faster as more food was available.

Meanwhile, there's Toothless, who's a baby, and has been the size of Wodensfang since the first book, and, according to Hiccup in his epilogue in Book 12, hasn't really grown up at all despite it being 62 years since the events of Book 12 (which if Hiccup was 10-11 when he got Toothless in Book 1, this would make Toothless 65-66 years old by Hiccup's death) and is still able to sleep on his chest. 

He must be a late bloomer. lol 😂

Then there's the Green Death — or Merciless — to consider. While he was Furious's size during Hiccup the First's time, and was considered to be a young dragon, then several centuries later, if not more, when he meets Hiccup the Third, he's still the same size! Do Sleep Comas delay aging and growth or something?

So basically we have FOUR Sea-Dragons who grow and age at various speeds! So I don't think we can glean anything from this.

So . . . 1000 years or 600-700 years? Honestly, I seem to get more confused the further I try to explain it! I hope you're having better luck keeping up than I am at the moment! lol 😂

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Time For a Little More Math! (cue the groans!):

Okay, I'm going to do a little more math. To be honest, graphs, charts, and basic math is the only math I love. If you don't like it, then skip if you'd like, though you'll miss out on the cool part. 😉🧐

I've done the calculations and I'll do my best with it. If there are any mistakes, please let me know and I'll correct them. 

I'll be using current time from 866-1100 AD and then add the date to when the Kingdom of the Wilderwest could've been established in Hiccup the First's time. 

I will be using the terms CTP (Current Time Period) and DFP (Dynasty Foundation Period) to avoid confusion.

Whew! Okay! Now that THAT'S done and over with, let's get to the average ages of the Kings of the Wilderwest to further prove (hopefully) which date it might've been. 

I've organized it into different sections. Before Hiccup the Third, there were 12 Kings of the Wilderwest. So I'll divide the number of years that the Dynasty could've lasted to the number of Kings to get the average lifespan that each of the Kings have to be in order for this to become plausible.

Now granted, some of these Kings could've died young (20s-30s), or very old, or in their middle-ages (pun not intended). This is the AVERAGE lifespan for each king -- not a literal statistic for each and every King. 

Unless, of course, if we were fanciful people, we might've theorized that there's some sort of magic spell in the Dragon Jewel that Wodensfang didn't mention that causes all of the Twelve Kings to die at the same age. 

In that case, if true, and if every King DOES INDEED die at the same age, then since Hiccup the Third dies at the age of 75/76, it would've been 900 years since the foundation of the Kingdom of the Wilderwest since every King would've died at the same age that Hiccup had died.

But we're not fanciful people . . . and that would be ridiculous. lol 😜

However, you're probably noticing that there are no 1000 Years among the statistics that I just showed above. That's because I had just remembered that the Kingdom of the Wilderwest collapsed a hundred years before Hiccup the Third's time. Meaning that if the Dynasty and Kingdom lasted for 1000 years, then only 900 years of that has passed as a kingdom.

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Conclusion:

So . . . WHEW! That took a long time to write (5-6 hours, though the time could've been cut in half had I not done the statistics, but then where'd be the fun in that? lol 😜)

I apologize if any of this went over your head or overwhelmed you with informational overload. If it did, then I sympathize because I'm feeling this as well — and I'm WRITING THIS! 

So my conclusion is that, basically speaking, regardless of the Kingdom being anywhere from 600-1000 years old, 100 of those years need to be subtracted since the Kingdom fell apart when Grimbeard dissolved it a hundred years prior to the current events of the Second Dragon War. So, realistically, the Kingdom — and the 12 Kings (including Grimbeard) — lasted around 500-900 years, and when Wodensfang tells Hiccup the Third about the history of the Wilderwest, he includes the 100 years into the timeframe when the Kingdom of the Wilderwest was first founded.

So I guess that, in the end, the actual date and timeline will be left up to the fans to headcanon for themselves.

If you could take anything from this, what would it be?

What current timeline do you think Hiccup the Third could be living in during the Viking Age? 900s? 1000s? 1100?

And how many years do you think that the Kingdom of the Wilderwest was established (including the 100-year gap)? 1000 years? 800? 700? 600? 

Please share your thoughts! I'd LOVE to hear from you!!! ^_^ 

Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to read this and I am looking forward to reading any theories, corrections, suggestions, discussions, answers, and/or questions you may have. 

I hope this article finds you well, and I hope you have a splendid weekend! 

Long Live the Wilderwest!

— Companion of the Dragonmark

[violet-moonstone]

looking through screenshots on the httyd wiki page

LOOK AT THEM

astrids pose in the first picture and heathers expression in the second

aughh

perfect

these should be paintings