#gay couples with masculine men are lovely and also so important

[artbyace]

if i see another tiktok dissing on fem/genderfluid sirius again IMMA SCREA M

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

Do you have a list of good sex ed books to read?

BOY DO I

please bear in mind that some of these books are a little old (10+ years) by research standards now, and that even the newer ones are all flawed in some way. the thing about research on human beings, and especially research on something as nebulous and huge as sex, is that people are Always going to miss something or fail to account for every possible experience, and that's just something that we have to accept in good faith. I think all of these books have something interesting to say, but that doesn't mean any of them are the only book you'll ever need.

related to that: it's been A While since I've read some of these so sorry if anything in them has aged poorly (I don't THINK SO but like, I was not as discerning a reader when I was 19) but I am still including them as books that have been important to my personal journey as a sex educator.

additionally, a caveat that very few of these books are, like, instructional sex ed books in the sense of like "here's how the penis works, here's where the clit is, etc." those books exist and they're great but they're also not very interesting to me; my studies on sex are much more in the social aspect (shout out to my sociology degree) and the way people learn to think about sex and societal factors that shape those trends. these books reflect that. I would genuinely love to have the time to check out some 101 books to see how they fare, but alas - sex ed is not my day job and I don't have the time to dedicate to that, so it happens slowly when it happens at all. I've been meaning to read Dr. Gunter's Vagina Bible since it came out in 2019, for fucks sake.

and finally an acknowledgement that this is a fairly white list, which has as much to do with biases with academia and publishing as my own unchecked biases especially early in my academic career and the limitations of my university library.

ANYWAY here's some books about sex that have been influential/informative to me in one way or another:

The Trouble With Normal: Sex, Politics, and the Ethics of Queer Life (Michael Warner, 1999)

Virginity Lost: An Intimate Portrait of First Sexual Experiences (Laura M. Carpenter, 2005)

Virgin: The Untouched History (Hanne Blank, 2007)

Sex Goes to School: Girls and Sex Education Before the 1960s (Susan K. Freeman, 2008)

Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex (Mary Roach, 2008)

Transgender History: The Roots of Today's Revolution (Revised Edition) (Susan Stryker, 2008)

The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity is Hurting Young Women (Jessica Valenti, 2009)

Not Under My Roof: Parents, Teens, and the Culture of Sex (Amy T. Schalet, 2011)

Straight: The Surprisingly Short History of Heterosexuality (Hanne Blank, 2012)

Rewriting the Rules: An Integrative Guide to Love, Sex and Relationships (Meg-John Barker, 2013)

The Sex Myth: The Gap Between Our Fantasies and Realities (Rachel Hills, 2015)

Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Tranform Your Sex Life (Emily Nagoski, 2015)

Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men (Jane Ward, 2015)

Too Hot to Handle: A Global History of Sex Education (Jonathan Zimmerman, 2015)

American Hookup: The New Culture of Sex on Campus (Lisa Wade, 2017)

Buzz: A Stimulating History of the Sex Toy (Hallie Lieberman, 2017)

Histories of the Transgender Child (Jules Gill-Peterson, 2018)

Revolting Prostitutes: The Fight for Sex Workers' Rights (Juno Mac and Molly Smith, 2018)

Ace: What Asexuality Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex (Angela Chen, 2020)

Pleasure in the News: African American Readership and Sexuality in the Black Press (Kim Gallon, 2020)

A Curious History of Sex (Kate Lister, 2020)

Boys & Sex: Young Men on Hookups, Love, Porn, Consent, and Navigating the New Masculinity (Peggy Orenstein, 2020)

Black Women, Black Love: America's War on Africa American Marriage (Dianne M. Stewart, 2020)

The Tragedy of Heterosexuality (Jane Ward, 2020)

Hurts So Good: The Science and Pleasure of Pain on Purpose (Leigh Cowart, 2021)

Strange Bedfellows: Adventures in the Science, History, and Surprising Secrets of STDs (Ina Park, 2021)

The Right to Sex: Feminist in the Twenty-First Century (Amia Srinivasan, 2021)

Love Your Asian Body: AIDS Activism in Los Angeles (Eric C. Wat, 2021)

Superfreaks: Kink, Pleasure, and the Pursuit of Happiness (Arielle Greenberg, 2023)

[afinestoutlove]

TL;DR Joe Locke is a really good actor

I accidentally came across a couple people saying Joe Locke isn't a good actor and like... what tf were you all watching?? Cos it wasn't what I was watching, he's so fucking good!! (I can only talk about Heartstopper here cos I haven't seen much of him in other things, but given these posts were related to Heartstopper...) I think this is firstly straight up (ha!) homophobia, with a side helping of shitty masculine beauty standards. I think it also comes down to the story Joe Locke is acting being something people are super uncomfortable seeing, and his success at telling it makes them uncomfortable in a way they don't want to deal with.

Homophobia first. These are almost always people who like Nick/Kit Connor, and that's not a coincidence. Nick/Kit fits very neatly into normative masculinity (although you know I have things to say about that around Nick's character), so people who haven't done the work to recognise their homophobia don't feel so weird about him. (He IS a great actor, but not "better" than Joe, or any of the other actors in the show. He just has a different story to tell that some people find easier to digest.) But Charlie/Joe Locke reads as more "stereotypically" gay, and no matter what BS reasons people come up with for not liking him, it almost always comes down to "he makes me uncomfortable because GAY".

Masculine beauty standards are so related to homophobia, because what we construct as an attractive man is so linked to heteronormative masculinity - tall, muscular, strong etc (let's not forget white, although that's less relevant to this discussion). Charlie/Joe not only falls outside these standards, but he's shown in the story as still being desirable. I love that about this story, because people who fall outside the very narrow beauty standards in Hollywood are still desirable to a lot of people - including people like Nick who meet those beauty standards. We see this happen in public couples all the time, tons of people suggesting that the partner who is further from conventional beauty standards is somehow a bad person, or is "tricking" the more conventionally attractive one. (See all the years of people trying to suggest Hugh Jackman is secretly gay because they thought his wife wasn't pretty enough and therefore must be a beard, it's so fucking gross.)

Finally the whole "character makes me uncomfortable" thing. Charlie Spring's story is super important and it makes people feel things that, if they haven't done their own work, are going to be super uncomfortable. Again, this is tied to homophobia, because Charlie's story challenges masculine norms about what counts as strength, what men "should" be like, etc. He has an ED, he has anxiety, he requires and seeks help, he forms affectionate and strong relationships and needs them to be healthy, etc. These are things men "aren't supposed to do" (and Nick only gets away with it bEcAuSe He'S hOt, that's it, that's the whole reason). People read Charlie as manipulative or selfish or whatever because he's not acting the way they think men "should" act. It's not based in Charlie's character - he is none of those things. But they want to read it that way because to actually recognise what makes them uncomfortable about Charlie would require them to unpack their own homophobia and bullshit masculinity standards.

Anyway, the short version is: I think people need to stop confusing "character that makes me feel uncomfortable feelings" or "person who is unconventionally attractive" with "can't act" cos y'all are very confused.

[storkmuffin]

One thing I've found very shocking about suddenly liking kpop 4th generation as a Korean who has never given a shit about kpop is how queer it is. Korean people know queer people exist. One gay couple even got their first step in some sort of parity recognition last year. We have out trans women who have entertainment careers. But we don't have like, a Troye Sivan or Chappell Roan, as in people are queer AND out AND successful AND discussed as part of mainstream popular culture. It gets doubly confusing because Kpop imported elements of Japanese host bar culture in order to foster parasocial obsession in the fandom for profit, so there's a lot of queer baiting going on to begin with, packaged as fanservice for straight women. And Korea is also extremely homosocial, where men and women almost never touch casually in public unless they are lovers but intra- gender physical affection is rarely sexualized, at least officially, unless you're literally making out.

As a consequence I'm surprised at how actually out Seonghwa of Ateez is about being queer and how his company lets him.

-He picked Troye Sivan's song Angel Baby to sing as a cover. Ateez don't release music videos for every song but they did make a video for this solo cover. The first line is "I need a lover to keep me sane," and the 5th lyric of this song is "Give him my all when I don't even have it." He chose this song. He enunciated the pronoun very clearly. Troye Sivan is also who he is and we all know in Korea who he is and what he stands for in terms of sexuality. That kind of out pop star in our pop culture has not happened yet in Korea. But maybe someday?!?

- In an English language fan chat he told a story about how as a small boy he would go shopping with his mother, and wanted to try on the pretty girl clothes but was told he couldn't. This is an astonishing thing for a Korean boy to admit, if the story is not about how this is how he realized he's a trans woman.

- When he was invited to the Isabel Marant fashion show and invited to pick an outfit he specifically said he wanted to wear women's clothing. He picked a dress to wear over pants.

For context: He's not just a Korean boy. He's from 경상도, like full on. My whole family is from 경상도. It's a very macho, very chauvinist region, even for S. Korea.

- The way he enacts rough macho 경상도 masculinity has the patina of a drag parody in a way that San's using his native dialect doesn't.

- In a tarot reading and then a Korean birth chart reading they left in when the reader specifically said that Seonghwa is "the wife" vis a vis Hong Joong, the group leader. The members may or may not know what will be said ahead of time but the production definitely does, and they're the ones to edit this so they can take out anything the band or the company finds objectionable. It's the choice of the terms for WIFE that is meaningful because the birth chart reader also said Seonghwa had the character of a 참모 which can be translated variously as advisor, right hand man, essential staff, loyal supporter. So he has that personality but his role in the match up with Hong Joong they keep saying WIFE. And he doesn't seem to mind or be upset by this when 99 percent of the straight Korean men I know would freak the fuck out at being called his business partner's WIFE.

- This is all in contrast to Jong Ho, the main vocalist, who is clearly straight. The way Jong Ho reacts to the set ups they have in the reality and variety show programming they make is mainstream heterosexuality, Korean style behavior. His not doing a unit song with the other members and instead singing a conventional love song, then casting an actress to be the addressee of that song in the music video was a statement he was making about himself but also about at least one other member.

I'm very interested in how this is going to play out, because Seonghwa has also said he LOVES his idol career, so much so that he wants to do it forever, but at the same time he's wearing Isabel Marant dresses and singing Troye Sivan covers about wanting a male lover, and we're just not there yet.

[bulbagarden]

Opinion: Scarlet and Violet are Pokémon's Queerest Games Yet (Bulbanews)

Hi it's Lisia here!! The following is an opinion piece from one of our staff members, Torchic W. Pip!! Blanc and I both loved this and like... we had to share it here LOL.

Pokémon was my queer awakening. I had silly little crushes on male and female characters alike, and I resonated with many of the designs of the series’s more gender nonconforming designs. Pokémon has always had a wink and a nod to queerness: Jessie and James’s genderbending antics, Beauty Nova in X and Y, Blanche from Pokémon GO… the list goes on. But with Scarlet and Violet, queerness shines bright as celestial stars.

“But wait!” you might say. “Scarlet and Violet has no canonical gay or trans characters! How can this thesis make sense?” Well, queer representation need not be explicit to be impactful. Sometimes, the stories queer people resonate with most are told through metaphor, from the misfits in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer to X-Men to Luca and Gwen Stacy. The roots of this trace back to a history of censorship. LGBTQ+ stories have been historically censored, such as with the Hays Code. Queer people have long been unable to see stories with explicitly queer characters, so they instead turned to metaphors and symbolism. Gender nonconformity is also nothing new to the scene of video games. Metroid, Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy, and Guilty Gear are just some of the games that play with our expectations of gender. It’s also nothing new to Pokémon. East Asian media tends to depict transness and gender nonconformity differently from the West, but for more on that, I'll direct you to this video.

Even before the release of Scarlet and Violet, gender nonconformity shined through. Take a character like Grusha, for example, who many mistook for a girl when he was first introduced. It goes a little deeper than that, though. “Grusha” is Russian for “pear”, but it’s also a diminutive for the name “Agrafena”... a female Russian name. Whether or not it was intentional, it does add an extra layer of nonconformity to Grusha. Another character with some queercoded elements is Iono: Her color palette evokes the colours of the trans flag, and her Magnemite headpieces evoke an explicitly genderless Pokémon. Baggy clothes are common among many transgender people. Her friend Bellibolt is a frog, and many frogs in real life can change their sex. In Japanese, she speaks with a Bokukko speech pattern (a girl using the masculine “boku”), which is often used for plucky characters, but also nonconforming characters. All of Iono’s names across translations evoke themes of questions. On top of all that… well, the Vtubing scene is, from personal experience, very queer. All of my friends who watch VTubers are queer in some way. More seriously, creating a persona where you can let your true self shine in a way that regular society won't allow you to... that's pretty queer.

With the release of the games, we’ve seen a wide array of characters—Rika, Saguaro, Penny, and all of the leaders of Team Star, among others—showcase a wide range of gender expressions, either in their appearances, their personalities, or their hobbies. And all of these characters are seen as heroes, as role models.

As with games before, there are two characters with queer subtext in their relationship. Hassel and Brassius have been seen by many as being in a gay relationship, bonding over a love of art, supporting each other in dark times, and giving each other pet names. Even if it's not outright stated that they're in a romantic relationship, their care for each other is a beautiful thing. Many gay coded relationships are often of younger men or women, and while these relationships are important, it's also important for older gay couples to receive some of the spotlight. After all, queer people have always existed, and it's important to remember our past and honor those who came before us, who helped paved the path to acceptance.

For the first time in a mainline game, the player character can choose any clothes, hair style, and so on regardless of gender. While the player can still only choose between being referred to by masculine or feminine terms, this is a step in the right direction, and it opens the door for many opportunities never seen before. Boys can be feminine, girls can be masculine, and both can be anywhere in between. The world of gender expression is as big as the open world of Paldea.

But back to Team Star. The whole Team Star path is one big, queer metaphor. Think about it: kids are bullied for how they dress or act, these misfits band together and retaliate against their bullies, finding a sort of family in each other, villains who turn out to be just the opposite… It’s a story that, in some way or form, can resonate with many kids who have, sadly, dealt with homophobia or transphobia in school. The path is a story about righting what’s wrong, about making the world a more accepting place.

Scarlet and Violet is a game about shining bright in the sky with other stars, about being your true self. Its themes are deeply resonant with the queer experience. At the end of the Team Star path, you battle Penny, whose ace Pokémon is trans flag-coloured Sylveon, and as she Terastilizes her partner, she says, “Shine bright like the starry sky and become who you really want to be!” So shine bright, trainers, and be your true self.

Oh, and of course, Quaquaval is the queer icon of all time.

[Torchic W. Pip is a Bulbanews writer with a focus on music, merchandise, and spin-off games. They're also a fanfiction author and moderator of the Writer's Workshop subforum. Outside of writing, Torchic is studying music theory and linguistics, and his favorite games are X/Y and Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire.]

[ineffable-opinions]

MAME & BL Literacies (Part 4)

Other parts: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

Contents:

MAME’s queer characters and their lives

Fetishization of queer men and profiting off LGBT community

Why other queer genres like gei comi struggle to get live action adaptation?

(bonus) What Did You Eat Yesterday sexy times

BL and rape culture

Everyday ethnocentrism & BL

-

This is the last part of this essay series. In this part, I want to discuss the response this review of TharnType by @waitmyturtles generated. As always, corrections and criticisms are welcome.

-

Here are the points @solitaryandwandering raised:

1. fans will get SO rabid for MAME’s stuff yet resist tuning in for more queer-friendly Taiwanese BL or lower heat fare

I think that the BL MAME creates is "queer-friendly". Moreover, her BL focuses on the intersection of queerness with local forms of gender, patriarchy & heterosexism, class, race, skin color, age, employment, location & regionalism, abilities and disabilities, education, health conditions and access to medical care, urban-rural divide, migrant status, culture, etc.

MAME's BL have aspects of Thai queer culture and praxis that are otherwise overlooked. Here's an example.

Through Techno’s interaction with Tharn in episode 1 of TharnType, MAME highlights an important issue: invisibility of androphilic “man”. Techno comments that Tharn is the first masculine presenting androphilic male he has met, even though he has several queer friends.

This is in part due to skewed presence of androphilic male characters in mainstream media. In Thai soap operas and movies, androphilic men are 'presented as effeminate, overreactive, with a passionate but unrequited interest in men'.

Countering this perception is the hegemony of masculine aesthetics in urban Thailand’s queer culture. 'The English word “man” has been borrowed into Thai gay-speak to denote acting in a masculine way. Man describes a masculine presentation of either gay-identified or heterosexual males and contrasts with the Thai term phu-chai, which also translates as “man” but is used in the specific sense of denoting the gender role of a heterosexually identified male.

'Many Thai gays believe that effeminate gay men, or gay sao, will experience discrimination and prejudice because of their feminine characteristics and behaviours. Thai gays also think that performing gender-normative forms of manhood are useful in establishing sexual and romantic relations with other gays. These expectations are associated with the culture of images, known in Thai as phap-phot, by which many homosexual men feel compelled to act in accord with normative male gender roles.'

This is in contrast to Techno’s queer friends who blur the lines between the masculine and feminine domains. His use of the word kathoey is case in point.

Moreover, the need for social conformity for Thai gays in terms of their gender performance is an urban phenomenon. Ethnographic study by Wijngaarden traced the rapid adoption of more masculine gender performance by gay men who moved from rural setting to urban for the purpose of education and employment. Ambiguity in gender performance is more accepted in rural setting where there is gender-based understandings of homosexuality. Also, gay dating scene in urban areas seem to assign value to masculine presentation.

source

I don't really know what @solitaryandwandering mean by "queer-friendly" in the context of Taiwanese BL.

Support of fu-people (BL fans) for queer works in Taiwan is well-known. When the play 《愛情生活》 Life of Love by Xu ZhengPing was staged, they had BL version shows too.

The play has a short film adaptation which is available for free on GagaOOLala.

Fu-people have also shown their support for series like Breakfast by 想再見你.

-

@solitaryandwandering gave valuable response to this post which I am adding below.

I had to go back and re-read what I said in the post for more context. I think though we may disagree on a couple points (what people consider "queer-friendly" is somewhat subjective) your criticisms are totally valid. I think in my first point I was making a really broad generalization and my description of overall Taiwanese BL as being "more" queer-friendly largely rings false to me now. I think what I was frustrated with was more with what I've seen of BL fandom's response to the series and other works. The popularity of high heat and "problematic" themes (I'm using that pretty liberally) like abusive relationships or rape is pretty massive in comparison to Taiwanese stuff in general. But that's not to say Taiwanese stuff don't utilize the same tropes or themes. Hence why I think my comparison wasn't accurate.

In comparing Taiwanese BL I had seen at the time and MAME's stuff (specifically TharnType) I probably felt that Taiwanese BL didn't so heavily utilize themes which made me uncomfortable or angry at the way MAME was writing it. And I still do largely think that at least for her earlier stuff MAME needed to work on her characters and plots. I did not see Tharn or Type or the other characters or the story as appealing or positive representations of… anything. In my view at the time Taiwanese BL liked to play with similar themes but still (mostly) didn't leave me with a bad taste in my mouth. I don't really agree with what I think was a bit of a limited view at the time. Reading your post has given me a bit of a different perspective, too.

I don't think everyone making Taiwanese BL particularly cares about the response queer fans have haha. And MAME has shown she does, at least from my perspective.

And again lumping an entire country's slant on the genre against MAME's creations is a bit disingenuous. So I appreciate you criticizing that.

And I don't inherently think lower heat stuff is inherently more queer-friendly of course - queer people fuck! Queer people can do terrible things! But the gulf of popularity between high heat stuff versus lower heat at least in international online spaces is pretty large. That concerns me for the reasons I stated in my comments - why is fandom more eager to engage with one over the other? Do these fans see queer men as people or as things to fetishize? And how does MAME's writing encourage or discourage those damaging readings? Largely I think what I was referencing in my response was fandom response rather than what creators at large do.

I think we may disagree on how effectively MAME writes her shows but I do think my perspective on her as a creator has changed quite a lot. Her writing certainly has with each show. It's important to interrogate my own ethnocentrism as you point out in your post. Acting like I'm the arbiter of "good queerness" in stories just because I'm queer is not a practice I want to encourage.

and yes, I do think there is quite a bit of critical consumption of BL, and it has only been growing! I was concerned about those who do not critically consume, a more direct criticism.

But I did communicate it as a large generalization… One of the reasons why my response to stuff like TharnType is this way is because I have a background in domestic violence prevention, so the lens I look at that kind of material through is highly critical. But it is also a white American lens.

-

And here is my contribution to that discussion. I am very grateful for to @solitaryandwandering for engaging with this post.

What each think as “queer-friendly” is subjective. I wanted to be clear about what I thought as queer (since LGBT+ form is a little too narrow from my perspective). I wanted to place BL in the context of Taiwanese tongzhi (queer) culture and wanted to showcase the similarities and their connection. Life of Love by Xu ZhengPing, the tongzhi work I mentioned, has both "high heat" and "problematic" themes (it deals with infidelity) while addressing what it means to be tongzhi in post-marriage equality era. The BL versions’ ad is very funny. Please check out that link if you haven’t.

About abusive themes in BL, I really wish BL audience will pay attention to media consumed by queer people that are made by queer people in BL producing countries and realize how meek MAME is in comparison, both in terms of influence as well as themes. That is why brought up erotic treatment of rape aka rape for titillation – rare in BL but very common & celebrated in queer content from the region such as gei comi and gay pinku cinema. I think that answers the issues you raised – popularity of high heat stuff, queer men as fetish and damage it causes. I have been consuming gei comi and BL for years and when the live action boom happened, I was hopeful that gei comi will also start getting live action adaptation. Instead, there was a deluge of sweet BL and concerns about damage anything problematic can cause, not to mention the kind of critique authors as mild as MAME was getting. When female BL creators were getting bashed (not only about live action but also about comics and novels), I thought the criticisms would extend to gei comi. I was confused when it didn’t. I was even more confused when it seemed like no one was ever mentioning gei comi. It was as though those who were criticizing BL creators don’t know about gei comi.

To be honest, I don’t really know what damage everyone is talking about even now. I mean, what’s the basis of those claims? Gei comi always had those themes, a great deal more than BL. What harm did it ever perpetuate? Whom did it harm? I couldn’t find any evidence (empirical or anecdotal) no matter how I searched. (I will be grateful if you can direct me towards some research or something on the matter.)

Only damage that I know of is linked to the tangible impact of gei comi on the popularity of hairy, gachimuchi aesthetics of queer men [and associated physical manifestations of protest hypermasculinity] in East Asia that I discussed in part 2 of this essay series [as well as in my post on masculinities with special focus on Chinese androphilic men]. This is one area I think a lot of skinny queer men in East Asia would have found themselves at a loss. So I think BL exclusively having skinny dudes is a good thing.

I know that I can wish all I want but audience won’t accept live adaption of something like Fisherman’s Lodge much less Pride (my introduction to the genre and the reason why I fell in love with it). My Brother’s Husband sort of solidified my belief. Then Sei no Gekiyaku [Dangerous Drug of Sex] live action happened, and my worlds collided. All of a sudden androphilic men were discussing a BL like never before. It was such a hit on Netflix Japan. That’s when I discovered The Shortest Distance Is Round and then its sequels. By then it was clear that there is escaping the difference in wavelength.

I would like to make a small addition in light of Heavens x Candy (a 2024 Japanese BL movie, pinku adjacent that is available for streaming on Gagaoolala).

I now have greater hope for "hard" BL and even gei comi getting live action adaptation from OP Pictures (albeit without hairy, gachimuchi aesthetics. I mean the only actor doing such roles in BL is Kaji Masaki who acted in both KabeKoji and Smells like Green Spirit.) I plan to do a longer post on Heavens x Candy when I get time to rewatch it.

2. Fetishization of queer men in yaoi

By that standard, is Minamoto Kazuki fetishizing straight women through his works?

source

Minamoto Kazuki is a gay mangaka who creates straight romance and smut.

Arguably, his most famous manga, at least in BL fandom, is Wall Circle’s Doujin Artist Nekoyashiki-Kun’s Desire for Recognition Grows which got live action adaptation: KabeKoji in 2022.

Apart from creating commercial BL and yaoi (self-published BL like the ones in the image given above), he has also authored an autobiographical work titled Shoujo Manga Artist Minamoto-San Comes Out and a manga exploring queer life and homophobia titled The Gay Who Turned Kaiju.

Moreover, many scholars, mangaka, fans, etc. from Asia and elsewhere have already spoken/written plenty about the issue of fetishization. Here's a compilation of resources.

3. zero critical consumption and leveraging of abusive concepts

I wonder why it is assumed that BL is consumed without critical thinking. It is true that BL, especially MAME's BL, are not didactic. TharnType is a BL with odo (royal road) narrative progression. It is not one of the sweet BL that GMMTV produces. Due to a general lack of BL literacies, there are off-the-mark expectations associated with BL, particularly Thai BL. Hence, odo BL seems to violate a lot of these misguided expectations.

TharnType is a well-done odo BL, in my opinion. "Leveraging of abusive concepts" is not a failure but a feature.

When it comes to depiction of abuse, there are those who think that it always gives the wrong message. There are variety in opinions on what is the right way to go about it. BL being an accommodating genre has space for all sorts of treatment. Even in live action, there is good variety in terms of how the theme is treated. But nothing is everyone’s cup of tea. This being the case it is understandable if someone like how MAME handles abuse, just as it is understandable if someone doesn't.

Assuming that fans don't engage critically with the theme and are mindlessly consuming it, have the implication of infantilizing the audience - as though they are without faculties of discretion and are incapable of making judgements. It also has the added implication of demonizing all media concerning queer people that deals with abuse. If MAME’s approach is deemed “unsafe” for queer population, based on that judgement, where does BL and gei comi that offer erotic treatment of abuse fall? What about queer people producing and consuming them?

That brings me to the points @nieves-de-sugui has raised.

4. how much all of these tropes where used (and still are). I believe that when things are made for tv they should take all the things you mentioned into account more than they do.

I believe that makers of live action queer content are very cautious. Thanks to that we are yet to get live action adaptation of any gei comi.

I have seen mainstream media ignore Gengoroh Tagame (probably the most popular gay mangaka creating content aimed at androphilic men) and his works for years in spite of his tangible influence on East Asian queer men. And then suddenly creating a live action adaptation of his all-ages manga My Brother’s Husband.

Who will dare to adapt his works Gunji or Fisherman’s Lodge or Pride? How can we show rape, trauma and taboo involving queer people on screen? What message will it give to the queer population? To the non-queer population?

A scene from Fisherman’s Lodge. Image courtesy of @finalatomicbuster.

If MAME was not involved in producing her BL, it is doubtful if it would have ever happened the way it did. Almost all BL adaptation is a censored adaptation, with notable exceptions like Sei no Gekiyaku. Recently, 25 Ji, Akasaka de (2024) removed complicated sexual content (including a dub-con episode) from the volume 1 of the manga, which was critical to the story and the couple’s development, in adaptation. Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro ka (2024) went as far as removing the more sexual second couple from the live action adaptation probably because makers thought it was better not to go anywhere near cruelty.

The first ever anime adaptation of a gei comi, Shin Yaranai ka based on Junichi Yamakawa's Kuso Miso Technique, is *sigh* disappointing to say the least.

I wanted to quickly mention What Did You Eat Yesterday yaoi version since @waitmyturtles mentioned the series.

5. What Did You Eat Yesterday

I want to highlight that What Did You Eat Yesterday was not a BL in publication. It was published in Morning, a conservative magazine for middle-aged men. This is what got a live action adaptation.

Fumi Yoshinaga has created a proper BL doujin series that includes content that couldn't be part of publication in Morning.

Here are some panels from the two latest volumes of the yaoi. I wonder if audience would have had the same impression of the show if they had incorporated the doujin bits too.

6. One piece of the puzzle that's missing here is Thai rape culture that blankets all of their society.

This is an important point @yousaygoodbyeandisay raised and it applies not just to Thailand.

Sexual assault as a theme in BL, handled in a myriad of ways, has been the case since the inception of the genre. I have discussed the history in the context of Japan here.

It was during the publication of JUNE magazine that the importance of depiction of sexual assault in BL became clear to the editor through response letters from readers.

June is a place of therapistic rehabilitation for those women who had experiences of mental and physical abuses as a female. Mr. Sagawa said that he cannot ignore that there are not a few readers who had such experiences during their childhood.

source

MAME studied BL and its production academically (you can find her research output by searching her name: อรวรรณ วิชญวรรณกุล) before she entered live action production. She not only know what she is writing/creating but also is willing to deal with difficult themes without taking sweet, fable-like route.

Now onto the points @mikuni14 raised.

7. my shock seeing so much SA related stuff (the show covered just about every problematic sex thing there is, and finally forgave the heinous criminal instead of putting him in jail. I don't know how MAME can create for example AePete and also somany vile things

For those who don’t know, MAME is a unique Thai BL creator. Thai BL creators on average lack BL literacies for various reasons. MAME is one of the exceptions. This is because:

she is a BL author & hence, one of the creators of BL literacies

she studied BL and its production academically [you can find her research output by searching her name: อรว���รณ วิชญวรรณกุล]

then she started producing live action BL

In an industry which is lacking in BL literacies, what she brings to the table is fu-culture (BL fan culture) in all its glory. Unfortunately, the live action audience who are fans of sweet BL, have a hard time adjusting.

Here are some typical narrative progressions for a (Japanese) BL:

あまあま – sweet

ユニーク – unique

シリアス – serious

邪道 – evil road (jadō)

王道 - royal road (odo)

Any theme/one-line plot can choose to take any of these narrative progressions. Moreover, Thai BL usually originates online which allows for innovation.

MAME employs different narrative progressions for different ships. AePete follows the typical sweet BL progression. KengklaTechno follows jado and TharnType odo.

TarTum is a sweet BL, complicated by them being step-brothers. While their pairing is barely on odo, Tum as a character has a complicated odo progression within their ship.

Since TharnType is an odo BL all wrong-doings are not punished. Take for example KinnPorsche, another odo BL, where the ending can’t be 'organized crime gets the main characters in jail'. In odo BL involving crime, most of the victims are usually cannon fodders. So, characters are not bothered much by the crime. But in MAME's universe, Tum is an important character, someone designed to make audience root for him. Hence the audience can’t dismiss the crimes against him. It is not wrong to want the narrative to have Lhong jailed. If TharnType was a sweet BL, it would have gone there.

8. selective memory

Selective memory is indicative of preferences and it helps to fine tune BL consumption. MAME's storytelling incorporates diverse elements. Those who enjoy her works also might find that there something or the other that isn't to their taste. This is an important part of BL literacies.

I enjoy dangerous characterizations over subdued ones and prefer a meriba more than a happy ending. While there are plenty of BL media with those, they are super rare in live action. So, I appreciate MAME for taking into account fans who want something different from sweet BL.

Here are the points @bengiyo raised:

9. What Did You Eat Yesterday v/s Old Fashion Cupcake

This has nothing to do with MAME but has to do with BL literacies more generally. Old Fashion Cupcake is more appealing to BL fans because it is a BL and hence not sanitized to continue run on a conservative magazine. So, it permeates moe (affect). Moreover, creators of Old Fashion Cupcake are better informed than creators of What Did You Eat Yesterday in terms of BL literacies. So, the direction and acting works better in the former than the latter.

9. The Effect feeling like the first huge volley leveled at BL from within the genre.

I am always amazed at the takes on the Effect. Somehow it is assumed to be a critique of BL genre. That's not the case. The Effect is a proper jado BL.

What audience are picking up on is the 'I can do it better' spirit that motivates a lot of BL creation. It is natural for audience to feel like the depiction of complex themes, such as sexual abuse, bullying, delinquency, identity theft, murder, infidelity, pregnancy, etc. are not dealt with well. Creating BL that fits one's taste better is one way authors and artists go about addressing the issue. That is how we end up with same theme dealt with in numerous ways. When that expands, we end up with sub-genres and BL categories.

Jado BL are rare, particularly in Thai BL.

It is difficult to sell BL with jado and other narrative progressions. It becomes even more difficult to sell branded pairings when the characters they play are not impeccable. It is unlikely that actors playing bad guys can sell products for advertisers. (Imagine the characters from The Effect being in ads together!) It is even more unlikely that fans would go broke behind wicked characters and would want to attend fan-meetings and concerts featuring them in some way.

This is also so as not to trouble the average audience’s worldview (世界観) and is clearly a low effort and low skill (in terms of BL literacies) approach. But since a lot of audience don’t appreciate villain-like characterization, it is clearly low risk, no chance of a backlash from angry audience and the best method for assured money making.

@respectthepetty has also flagged the next issue:

10. History3: Make Our Days Count.

Gays were being buried and put in prison in Taiwanese BLs in the same year it legalized marriage equality.

There is a lot of ethnocentrism in the hate that MODC gets, apart from lack of BL literacies. While I understand where that take is coming from given American media history in the context of Hayes code, AIDS crisis, etc., I wish media from elsewhere would be looked at independently.

Queer narratives everywhere have their own over-used tropes and historical issues. Malayalam media, for example, has the issue of having one of two queer characters having varathan vibe (Rosy in Ponnaranjanam, Kiran in Sancharram, Antony's boyfriend in Mumbai Police, Kiran in My Life Partner, etc.) that makes them look odd in Kerala's rurban landscape. Even Kaathaloram played into this trope. The problem is that it perpetuates the belief that queerness is an import of sorts.

Mindless application of media critique learned from the west leads to the brushing aside of pertinent issues with media of the region in favor of finding legitimacy via commonality with the west. That way we end up with crits accusing Moothon of employing bury the gay trope while ignoring that:

Moothon is a gangster action flick like Kammattippaadam

It is rare for romances irrespective of the gender of the main characters and genre of the movie to have happy ending in Malayalam. In fact, almost all great love stories in Malayalam movies are tragedies. This is unlike in Hollywood where heterosexual romances usually get happy endings.

more importantly, every queer character, including Latheef, is infused with varathan vibe.

Taiwanese BL has issues worth exploring. Issues of their own media - not varathan queer trope from Malayalam media or bury your gay trope from American media.

MODC was an dealing with well-established BL tropes (like any other show in the History franchise). It explored bereavement (a tribute to Lan Yu, first ever danmei live action adaptation) and substitute lover trope.

The series introduced a doppelgänger of Yu XiGu (Xiang HaoTing’s white moonlight), a perfect candidate for substitute lover trope. But instead of pursuing it, they subverted the trope.

History franchise, which was build to grow BL and BL literacy in Taiwan, ended up victim to prejudice since it failed to measure up to foreign standards. MODC offered something rare. The audience didn't appreciate it. They dismissed it for not measuring up to expectations colored by experiences which danmei is not connected with for historical reasons.

By that standard, would tongzhi literature from Taiwan too have to make amends for sins of the west towards its queers? Imagine stripping of death as a theme from tongzhi author Chiang-Sheng Kuo's works! Then there is also difference in how death is perceived in different societies.

Why must BL be arm-twisted to fit into norms from elsewhere and correct the wrongs of someone else?

11. BL profit off LGBT community

This is really interesting. There are many questions that I can think of that is linked to this take:

Is BL really profitable? Short answer is no. Long answer here.

Is it really LGBT community that BL profits off?

Probably not. It is moe that BL sells. That imo, is the main difference between BL and other queer genres.

Anyway, BL predates LGBT acronym. It predates de-pathologization of homosexuality in many BL creating regions. Fu-people were creating BL before mainstream media started representing queer people in media. Fu-people battled state and its censors everywhere along with queer people. Live action BL surely is commercialized. But that is capitalism reaping the dividends of decades of fu-people's labor of love.

@he-is-lightning-in-a-bottle raised the following point.

12. 2019 saw significant increase in quantity and quality of BL. Since then, live actions smoothed out the rougher edges of the source material (like what happened with Kinnporsche and Love in the Air).

While I understand the rational behind toning down dangerous characterization to appeal to the largest audience, I think that kind of censorship for commercialization limits potential of the genre. The impact is most visible in case of GMMTV BL such as Only Friend (where it could neither be sweet BL nor could it embark properly on jado).

Compare it with adaptation of the ero-BL Sei no Gekiyaku. It stayed true to the content and pushed the boundaries enough to bring about convergence between gay pinku cinema and BL. When BL is allowed to explore its potential freely, it not only imparts BL literacies but also makes it possible for other queer genres to gain new audience, which in turn encourages production houses to venture into different queer genres.

jjsanguine raised the following point.

13. I don't even hate toxic characters or plotlines, actually I love them. But like even if the characters don't know they're doing it, the show should. And it really really doesn't. And neither do the fans. Kind of alarming.

This is in relation to Lhong and San.

Lhong is a yandere in a odo BL. (for detailed discussion see Part 3) It is a matter of the world view and less about show's self-awareness (which I believe it has). If TharnType was an jado BL, Tharn could have ended up with Lhong and Type would be the stalking horse.

@jjsanguine later commented about how Lhong felt "goofy" by way of his over-the-top actions which made the show's convictions questionable.

San and Tharn's relationship was, to an extend, the most realistically depicted. I remember starting to learn about Thai queerness and realizing that a lot of elements in their relationship reads like ethnography. Consider for example Tharn being only fourteen at the time of sexual debut and San being older. This is not too different from the average age of sexual debut in Thailand. Despite it being a compoundable offense, average age of sexual debut is declining. Tharn's discovery of what he likes and dislikes and shedding cuteness (which San comments about) and adopting manliness (which Techno comments about) too is in line with what is observed among urban queer youth. Contrast this with Sky in Love in the Air whose sexual debut and exploitation are tied to his migration to urban landscape. Sky's backstory too read like ethnography and his vulnerability a reflection of the many others' in his society.

@absolutebl raised the following points:

14. Rape - as plot device - doesn't make good stories - lazy & bad writing: Feminist critique and modern narrative analysis.

Feminist and queer BL scholars from Akiko Mizoguchi to James Welker have discussed rape as a plot device in BL. Since experts have written plenty, I'll spare my effort discussing this misconception.

15. rape is an act of sexuality (or worse, sexy), it is NOT - it is an act of violence. But that is only the start to the way it’s chronically mishandled, especially in commercial fiction (of which romance makes the largest percentage). 

Akiko Mizoguchi's two decade of work have addressed this in relation to Japanese BL which I feel holds true for BL more generally. Moreover, BL is not a romance sub-genre. BL is a genre in itself. A lot of BL is romance. There is enough overlap between those genres to give the impression that BL is a romance sub-genre. But there are plenty of other works too. Like One Room Angel and Social Reform Season. Similarly, BL is not a porn sub-genre. A lot of BL is porn. But come on!

16. [MAME] produces consistent highly-profitable narratives by-and-about queer folks but utterly disingenuous to the queer experience and that defines exploitation in the ET industry... Right, just adding that yes BL does not represent (in any way) the reality of being queer in any of these countries.

I have already discussed how MAME's works are intersectional reflections of queer experience. BL has been reflecting different queer experiences in Japan even before the term boys' love emerged. But narrow, ethnocentric ideas of queerness doesn't lend itself to honest understanding of other forms and representation. Consider characters being addressed as เมีย ‘wife’. It is a Thai queer practice. One can always dismiss that since it sounds heterosexist in the culture one comes from as absolutebl does in this post. That, imo, is 'disingenuous to the queer experience' of Thai people.

The question is what are westerners missing in their own countries' queer media that they feel they must just judge everything with no care for the cultures and people producing content for themselves? Seriously, what have the westernization done to some in the audience that they emerge so desperate for queer content that they watch BL yet remain blind to the cultures (fu-culture in particular) that produce them and splooge vitriolic ethnocentrism?

-

That concludes this discourse series. I want to sincerely thank everyone who contributed to and inspired this 🙏.

Other parts: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

[lover-of-mine]

I just saw someone genuinely argue "as a Buddie shipper" (which I don't believe) that Buddie shouldn't happen because: their close friendship is too important, the text of the show doesn't support Eddie being gay the way it supports Buck being bi, Eddie is "not ready", and that Ryan Guzman plays Eddie "too straight" to be able to pull off acting Buddie and this feels like to me someone who doesn't actually ship Buddie but is claiming to cause they think it'll give them more credibility in criticizing it.

1) if I see one more argument about how their close male friendship is too important because of toxic masculinity and that making it romantic would ruin it I'm going to lose my marbles because this is the dumbest take. TV is FULL of vulnerable platonic male friendships - 9-1-1 is FULL of them. Also them becoming romantic does not mean they would no longer be friends.

2) So we're just pretending queer-coding doesn't exist now okay.

3) I'm sick to death of the argument of Eddie not being ready. When is he allowed to be ready??? Does he have to suffer for a decade before he's allowed to figure things out??

4) They have to be watching the show with their eyes closed to think Ryan Guzman who has been playing Eddie "Heart Eyes" Diaz for 6 seasons couldn't pull off Buddie.

I'm gonna talk about all points, but the Eddie is too straight thing drives me INSANE. Four months ago, if I said "oh, Eddie is straight, no way buddie is happening" I would have whole essays on how he's gay thrown my way before I hit post. We're talking about a character who had panic attacks about his girlfriend. Who this season had literal erectile dysfunction with another girlfriend. There is no heterosexual explanation for the way Eddie was looking at Buck during the poker game. That man looks at Buck like he's the sun, the sky, the stars, and the moon. Like Buck is somehow the best thing he ever laid eyes on. Yeah, there are threads to pull. With Buck. We only need Eddie to be into one man. And boy, do we have threads to pull there. And honestly, if you wanna see Ryan play painfully straight men, go watch anything else in his filmography, that man knows how to act painfully straight. It's not what he's doing with Eddie. This narrative that Ryan is somehow sabotaging buddie's chances is so beyond ridiculous. Personally, I don't subscribe to Eddie being strictly gay, but I legit don't care anymore as long as he's out of the closet soon give him whatever label, but even if there weren't threads to pull to make it seem like Eddie is in love with Buck, and there are a lot of them, this idea that Eddie being gay is only valid if he's a stereotypical gay man from the beginning is NUTS. Why does gay have to look a specific way to be valid for y'all? This is such a harmful point of view. You want rep but it needs to fit in this one specific box or else it's not valid? What is wrong with you?

The male friendship thing, please tell me where are we lacking vulnerable male friendships in media? Media is made of male friendships. Everything everywhere is about male characters. And Buck and Eddie dating would not negate their friendship all of a sudden. Yall do realize you're supposed to like the person you're dating, right? Isn't literally everyone on the planet telling everyone to marry their best friend? How would that ruin their friendship? It just makes them a stronger couple because they have that foundation. And there literally isn't a show or movie that had two guy best friends who weren't introduced as queer who started dating. Literally, does not exist in media, how would losing exactly one friendship suddenly destroy male friendship representation everywhere? And we weren't even be losing the friendship, the friendship is gonna be a core part of buddie forever. You want strong male friendships? Go watch literally anything else. Every procedural ever has two guy best friends. Go watch house, any of the ncis, h50, the one chicago shows, hell, go watch lord of the rings or something, there are so many male friendships in media. No one is gonna die if Buck and Eddie kiss.

And the whole Eddie not being ready thing. Are we watching the same show? The show where madney started while Maddie was running for her life or bathena started while Bobby was actively suicidal? Or that even henren was presented to us when Hen cheated? Buck's own definition of love is "So every day is the best day ever. Is that really love? Right? Shouldn't it be when you're at your worst, they're at their worst, you have every reason to give up, and you still decide you want to try again?" loving someone at their lowest is the definition of love for that show. It's working through the bad to appreciate the good. And again, this idea that someone needs to be healed to be worthy of love is fucked UP. Eddie is never gonna be fully healed. Recovery isn't linear and he has ptsd. He will forever grieve Shannon. Does that mean he's never gonna be allowed to be loved because he is a human being who has been through hell? What does it take for someone to be "ready for love", huh? What's the threshold here? He was in a helicopter that was shot down and got shot 3 times, he was abandoned by a wife he later was forced to watch die, he was shot at again in broad daylight, he watched his best friend die and had to save him, his own parents just stole his kid. What does he have to do to prove that he is worthy of love, how does he have to handle all that? What I'm getting here is that someone who's been through shit can't be loved, is that the message we're sending? Really? No one seriously wants Buck and Eddie to open season 8 dating, but they are partners and best friends and they don't have to have everything figured out before they go there, they can figure it out together, they do it together anyway. Why can't they take that step and figure things out as a couple? Jesus.

[saucerfulofsins]

Same anon as before, and wow, you really get it.

And I know we can’t really say for certain what he was meaning in those interviews…he seemed pretty scattered, and maybe he was coming off a certain way and we’re just reading it wrong. But I really don’t think so.

Judging from the stuff people found from his older social media days, he seems like a pretty misogynistic guy, and that typically goes hand in hand with being homophobic and a bigot. That’s just a fact.

I think it’s shitty for him to take a job playing a character that he in his real life would most likely want nothing to do with, but I guess if the money is right someone like that will do whatever.

My husband clocked it immediately and said, “oh this man is way too much of an asshole to play a gay man, he’s hating this.” And I was like, so you see it too??? I guess it wasn’t just my Buddie obsessed brain running into overdrive.

I think it’s a shame because Oliver clearly put so much care into playing a bi character and that meant so much to me as a bi person. Oliver did everything perfectly and is so sweet and gentle about it, and he got stuck with such a creep to do his scenes with. I just hope it’s over soon.

Yeah, so... like I said in the tags on my previous response, I know a lot of guys who aren't homophobic. Like, "will kiss other guys for fun" and "are open to the possibility of being attracted to/falling in love with a man" not-homophobic. (Also, these men are distinct from bicurious because they know they aren't into men).

And LFJ's interview read as the opposite. You know how sometimes people with no knowledge still sound like they're at least accepting, in their own way? This sounds like someone with minimal knowledge trying to pass as accepting. And he's failing.

Even if things are coming off wrong, I think it's pretty egregious that someone who is a professional actor doesn't interview well at all, as well as nobody who wants him portrayed positively stopping the release of this interview. I don't think ABC needs him to be a shining light of representation (I don't think they WANT him to be at this point, the interview matches the vibes in the deleted scene), but his agency not taking measures here is fucking weird.

But yeah. It's the while package isn't it? The egocentrism, the focus on masculine masculinity and being cool, the misogyny he doesn't even CLOCK (sorry but why did Hen have to prove herself BECAUSE shes a woman?), the whole "lgbt spectrum" thing (huerk red flag), the trump support, racism etc etc on top of the uhh nepo baby vibes all of which just fucking send me. So much of this ISNT difficult!

And like yeah, actually Oliver is the opposite end of the... for lack of a better word, spectrum. He uses the word bisexual! He's doing this with a very clear intention, he's very open about Buck, and I'll be honest, I find it VERY refreshing. I know some younger actors (late teens/early 20s) have been cool about queerness, but having someone my actual age have these takes is... very healing, I won't lie. Because there definitely is a big difference in those 10 years and how we grew up?

But yeah, I can't imagine Tommy staying on the show. The fact he was meant to stay for 4 is kinda telling to begin with, and I personally wouldn't be surprised if they leaned into LFJ's creep vibes to aid Tommy's characterization. That's interesting because LFJ doesn't seem to realize any of that which... very telling! Very limited!! Tommy and Buck aren't very close, but for me, his absence during Chim's bachelor party is VERY telling. There's no reason Tommy had to leave, from a writer's perspective. That emergency was fake. It wouldn't have taken much of LFJ's time to be at those shoots, especially considering he was there for some of it anyway. And the party was important to Buck!!!! (Eddie looked so bitchy! The Buddie couple costume to hammer their pairing home! Etc).

So yeah. I fully believe it will be over soon, because there's just nothing there and besides LFJ and a handful of fans, I haven't seen any full support for the pairing... least of all from the show. He's as flat as flat characters come, a complete stereotype, and that for a show that rests predominantly on its characters! It's pretty damning, actually.

I guess what I'm hoping for is Tommy showing up a couple more times, Buck realising Tommy's hella toxic AND recognising his own patterns, breaking up with him, and figuring out not just what bisexuality really means to him but also the kind of relationship BUCK wants (versus someone else prompting Buck/falling for ONE aspect of him and never seeing the rest). He deserves that much, above everything else, and I don't think Tommy is leaving ANY room for that (possibly the least of all his relationships) .

[variousqueerthings]

Should I watch spartacus? I've tried a few times but always lapse after a few eps bc the characters didn't really connect for me

listen, I don't usually rec spartacus to people, because it's - quite frankly - not for everyone. the language is crass, there's a ton of toxic masculinity, a whole bunch of graphic violence of (most) kinds, and it's got this super stylised environment building to it that can be hard for people to get used to

that being said I've seen it three times now and it makes me very emotional each time. so, if you're thinking of giving it another whirl, here's what I will say:

it definitely does take a little bit to get into the characters beyond the hur-dur big muscle men who all hate each other and make comments about who has the biggest dick (and like, this never totally goes away, but it's filtered through a different lens as the story goes along and the characters do start caring for one another) and here's more tits and undulating oiled women (I must stress though that everyone is oiled up and naked in this show, it's equality), but once you get into the meat of the story, I'd say rouuughly halfway-ish through s1, they really really start growing on you, like fungus. fungi -- especially crixus and agron (whom you may not have reached depending on where you stopped), I'd say for me especially crixus, who is always annoying to me for a fair bit in s1 and then you realise what sort of a character he is and where his arc is going and you're like ohhh ok. ok ok, got it, and there's a scene in the... second last episode of s1 I think where he is sobbing and unable to hold the woman he loves (naevia) as she's dragged away from him and they swear to see one another again... well, let's just say it made me feel things

the political drama of the show is *chefs kiss* it just builds and builds and builds across the whole show, with the second season being a prequel that adds context (it was made out of necessity -- the main actor was very sick, but it also adds to the story, both in terms of backstory and a new important character)

speaking of story -- some of my favourite pacing of all time! it sets up some premises and it continuously moves towards fulfilling those narrative arcs, it is a Very Satisfying Show Pacing-wise

some gay people in this show do die, because a lot of people on this show die (some very sad stuff happens to... well, everyone), but also this is a "the main gays are immortal" show, in which a beautiful m/m couple just fuckn. Cannot Die (they survive some stuff lemme tell you) and it was the first show I really saw that sentiment in

there are some very cool women in this show -- I think there should have been even more and it definitely is male-skewed, but the women on this show have their own really neat arcs and skill-sets, and it manages to not do the misstep of "the only women worth anything are the ones who aren't traditionally feminine/can fight and the rest are lesser," (with characters like diona, sybil, seppia and many minor characters mattering to the plot) while also giving us some gorgeous fighty-anger ladies (naevia, saxa), pragmatic leadership women (mira, laeta, gaia), a whole bunch who fit into difficult-to-categorise spaces (kore, aurelia, melitta) and ofc evil and scheme-y (lucretia, ilythia). I think for the most part the show is also very good at navigating ideas around power and womanhood, with characters like lucretia being both oppressor (owns slaves, can order crixus to have sex with her, is callus towards their humanity), while also at times suffering from lack of power, because she is only as worthwhile as who she is married to (same goes for ilythia and other roman women, and there's an interesting arc in s4 about how easily citizenship/personhood can be entirely stripped from you)

there's a very beautiful ethos beneath it all -- yes beneath all the hyper-violence and graphic sex and horrible dehumanisation (this is a show in which many of the main characters are slaves after all) it's got a strong core about protecting those who cannot protect themselves and it mourns the deaths of innocents (pietros, diona, aurelia, kore, etc)/isn't just about the Fighter Types, it's about fighting to overthrow systems even when it seems hopeless in order to build a better future, about loyalty, about community, about building cross-cultural bridges, about beautiful oiled up peo- wait hold on...

I think -- vs some other shows that I could mention - GoT - that's what's so strong about it. it has an arc, it has a point to it, and it like. wants to give its characters purpose, narratively

there's a couple of missteps, and I think part of that is the time the show was written in, but considering it's 2010 + its main actor died after s1 unfortunately it's miles ahead of many of its peers and most shows that came out in the 2010s that I'd argue tried to catch some of its rizz. flair. pizzazz

I think the right state of mind to go into it with is:

obvs ask yourself first if the sheer amount of sex and violence onscreen is a dealbreaker. you can also ask me what kind of violence if you want to prepare, because for me it was the not-knowing that was stressful the first time around, the next times I could step away during a few scenes that were too much for me, but on the whole was okay

we good on sex and violence? ok then, next step is: the language is gonna be super idiosyncratic. a mix of giving old (?) grammar (the word "the" no longer exists for the most part), kiwi accents (this was filmed in aotearoa/new zealand), names you're not used to hearing, and swearing in every sentence. let that seep into your bones, it becomes very fun after awhile (or it did for me)

give yourself a little shake and then go: "this is a Very Cool Show. not as a negative, it genuinely is Very Cool. other shows wish they were this Cool. it'll take half a second to immerse myself in just how Cool everything is, but once I'm used to it, it'll be awe-striking music, amazing stunt/fight-work in nearly every episode, beautiful -- and I mean beautiful -- character relationship arcs, and a vibe that's giving Mythological the whole way through," my friend it is unreal how Cool this show is, the pay-offs for its various setups make me punch the air when I get to them, every time, and by the final season you're screaming for the Roman Empire to fall beneath the heels of these beautiful oily people, while a majestic choir soars in the background

believe that the final episode of this show is gonna be so worth it -- not because it was a slog to get there, but because we're all so used to being let down in the final hour, but the ending of spartacus? chef's kiss. made me cry the last two times, which is why I'm putting it off this time.

in conclusion: this is not a show for everyone. it's definitely giving sexy boobs angry men at times. it is also a show with a quite similar set of ideas to things like black sails and sense8, which is what is so good about it. it's about how people matter and deserve humanity and it's very cathartic for me in this current day and age to watch these characters navigate the ideas of what a "revolution" looks like. it's a tragedy though, although there's joy along the way, and this is one of those stories where it was worth the trying no matter the cost

it's like. a good story. so many sexy bosom shots though (I mean, this may be the opposite of a deal-breaker now I write it out). but you've gotta gaze through the bosoms to see the plot. or something. yeah that makes sense

I've got a more detailed draft post of all my pros and cons of the show that I'll put out as well -- that was is full of spoilers that may be somewhat incomprehensible if one hasn't watched the show, but hey. it's out there

[kinkyviciousguy]

Writing this post because i'm fed up and so damned annoyed but all the sly people that message me asking money!!! I'm here for chatting exchanging opinions and new ideas for fucking and know new people for play virtual GRATIS,OK? UNDERSTAND? TELLING GRATIS AND NO MERCENARY in horny and exciting sex and fetish/bdsm plays but that, after know them and they know me well,if for all we this is ok, after meet us,can be real play! I'm openminded and respect all, i like Girls,Gurls,Women,Ladyboys,Ladies,Sissies,Mistresses,Bimbos, Goddesses,Femboys,Queens,Mommies,Trans,Trav,Shemales, Princesses,Whores,Sluts,Femmes Fatale,Executrix,Bitches, Dominatrix,Females,Maids,Lesbians,Couples,Masters,Guys,Bisex,Gays,Men, Males,Boys! I'm open for new experiences and for experiment new practices,i like sex very much with women and also with all the genders but only in active role,no in passive,i like fucking, no to be fucked in my asshole like a female,i like my male gender and don't like to be a female,like i respect all You,please all You respect me don't ask me Sissy,Slut and with other female name,thank You! I like very much also fetish/bdsm in sub/masochist role but in old school way:like a male slave! I like crawl at feet and kiss,lick,caress and worship them if are naked or weared with stocking,high heels shoes,sandals and boots also overknees,kneel down kissing hands naked or weared with gloves,to be punish,dominated,tortured and humiliated,love,obey,worship,serve and revere,leather,latex,rubber, satin and nylon sexy lingerie,stocking with garter belt suspender, gloves,boots,high heels,smoking fetish with or without holder but no human ashtray, spitting,golden shower also if i'm not crazy for this, trampling,handcuffs,collar with leash,slapping,whipping,flogging, caning,paddling,scratching,all the roleplays in sub role,also incest play with mommy,mommy dom,aunt,sister,daughter,mother in law,grandmother and other,i like also gunplay where the Lady shoot me unload all the mag of Her pistol in my belly,with a softair or other toy,no really of course! No other like dangerous play that can kill or give permanent damages,that can sign permanent my skin,no scat,vomiting,blood and clinical play and most important,no feminilization,don't wish become a Sissy, wish only fucking Them,no cocks,strapons or dildos in my asshole! I like the Mistresses very much but no if dominate in this new way wishing sissies slaves,if wishing me like Yours slave i enjoy for this but only like a male slave,i'll never be and never wish become a Sissy, like i respect all,please also You respect me don't ask me Sissy, Slut or other,because i'm happy in my male gender i like so much to be a masculine bull gifted with 20 cm. cock and no wish change, thank for understand this! Other,i'm here for play GRATIS,NO PAYING! I DON'T SEND TRIBUTES,NOTHING TRIBUTE, DON'T LIKE FINDOM,MONEY MISTRESSES,MERCENARIES AND ALL SEX WORKERS OR SLY PEOPLE THAT WANT FRAUD OTHER PEOPLE,I'M NOT SILLY OR STUPID,YOU LOST YOURS TIME WITH ME,I'M NO CROCKED,NO HUNCHBACK,NO CRIPPLE,NO UNLUCKY BUT CUTE AND HAVE IN MY REAL LIFE A LOT OF WOMEN FOR FUCKING,SOMEONE IS ALSO MISTRESS AND A PAIR PLAY ALSO AT GUNFETISH,MY PREFERITED PRACTICE, TOGETHER ME. I DON'T NEED TO PAY FOR FUCKING UNDERSTAND? ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WANT ASK ME MONEY OR TRIBUTE KEEP AWAY TO ME,STAY AT YOURS HOME AND GO WORKING IF WANT MONEY! ALL THE OTHERS THAT MESSAGE,CHAT OR WANT PLAY WITH ME ,FOR ENJOY AND NO FOR MONEY,ARE WELCOME! i'm here because seeking someone for to play chatting satisfying my 3 preferited fetishes: a Woman or Trans or a Couple or Other,chatting telling that like smoking while shooting me,wearing the black leather gloves. The most exciting thing for me is fucking with a partner that smoking, wearing the gloves,shooting me enjoying all excited,unloading all the mag in my belly while i cumming having the orgasm. Send my regards to all

[sneezemonster15]

Hello I know its a dumb question and most gay people switch but who do you think is most likely to be the top or the bottom between Naruto and Sasuke 😂

Ah the question that everyone wants to know the answer of. Well, seems like Kishi prefers NS. And no it's not a coincidence.

Kishi keeps (or used to at least) track of the fandom which is pretty common for creators who amass a significant fan following, as in who is the most popular character and why, who isn't and for what reasons, and I am positive he not only knew about the popular ships but he also played around it, trolling everyone. Lol, that jerk. Regardless, he certainly drew and wrote Naruto as an impish punk ass troublemaker. And Sasuke as the dignified, sensual and stylish avenger. Quite a lot of canon art consistently portrays Sasuke as the feminine counterpart to Naruto's masculine energy. Since they also represent yin and yang, yin represents feminine energy while yang represents masculine in Chinese philosophy. The SNS tropes also depict Naruto as the hero and Sasuke as his heroine is this classic and epic love saga. Also, Sasuke is designed after the archetype of a bishounen, who are written as typically lusted after by men to possess. Bishounen archetypes are typically bottoms. From what NS characterization I have read or seen, it is not always entirely accurate. A lot of NS fanfics are also pretty dissatisfying, and some of them, even the popular ones, are pretty inaccurate and poorly written. But most SN fics are more overtly shit. All in all though, I have seen NS characterization portray SNS much more accurately than SN. SN theories anyway are pretty rubbish. What with their faulty sun and moon allegory and the filler shit they rely on.

This top bottom thing honestly has a lot of pointless mystique about it. It's not that mysterious. Or even important.

It's not like Sasuke is some delicate twink and Naruto is some bear. In the manga itself, neither Sasuke nor Naruto come off as overly masculine or overly feminine, they are still very young, still coming into their adulthoods. They are still in the process of self discovery. In part one, Naruto is more childlike and Sasuke is like a jaded adult already, led by trauma, although Naruto relieves a lot of his tense lines heh. In part two, Naruto is adulting but his childlike spirit breaks out now and then. While Sasuke acts like a femme fatale around Naruto a lot of times. He is also quite bossy and take charge. Which annoys Naruto, but it's just an act by that time. He not so secretly enjoys it. Hehe. Which does remind you of other couples, as in how Shikaku's wife is bossy but Shikaku likes it secretly. Or how Kushina is bossy and take charge but even though henpecked Minato is sometimes exacerbated, he still loves it on Kushina. He adores her, just like Shikaku adores his bossy wife. Similarly, post Shippuden, it feels like Naruto is the henpecked husband who adores Sasuke, and even though he sometimes complains and makes funny faces at Sasuke's bossiness, he secretly loves it and simply won't have it any other way. Sasuke also knows that he can be himself around Naruto as much as he wants and Naruto would like him just as he is. He also knows that Naruto himself has a good head on his shoulders and both respect each other's abilities and belief systems.

[angie-long-legs]

If you're up for it, I'd be interested to hear your perspective on the Angel Dust from early concept art compared to the Angel Dust we have now.

Very early on, Angel was going to be genderfluid, but now he's a cis man.

Angel and Vaggie were originally a couple when they were being developed for Zoophobia, but now Angel is gay.

Angel nearly had a daughter as well! Her character would later morph into Cherri Bomb.

I bring this up because I've recently seen discussions about Angel's identities, including one person arguing that Angel should be bi rather than gay because "as it stands he falls into way too many stereotypes of monosexual gay men."

I personally would argue that Angel bucks a few stereotypes by being a femme gay man who's also very capable of using guns to defend himself.

On the other hand, I do understand the desire for more genderfluid rep. There's not a lot of it out there at the moment, so I can see how there might have been disappointment that Angel wouldn't be genderfluid after all.

I also think Angel's abuse story is powerful in part because he's a gay man, since we don't got a lot of male abuse victims in fiction, let alone gay male abuse victims, who aren't just treated as jokes. Again, though, having a genderfluid person go through such a plotline would also be pretty groundbreaking.

What do you think? Do you think Angel being genderfluid and bi/pan and a parent would have enhanced his character? Or are you happy with him the way he is?

//Thank you for asking me this, I LOVE to share my thoughts on the spooder >:)

But since I'm a yapper I'm putting it under a read more for the sanity of my followers.

So, first off, I think the idea of angel having a daughter would be interesting! I can see why they might have scrapped it, but I think it has the potential to be fun. I definitely prefer Cherri Bomb as the wild, bad-influence friend, though, and I hope we see more of her and Angel being besties in s2 (as well as her actually looking out for Angel's best interests!).

In terms of queer representation, I personally don't have any qualms with Angel Dust. Yes, he displays features that are stereotypical among gay men - in all honesty, I don't see this as a negative thing. As you said, he similtaneously defies stereotypes by being a tough-guy mafioso, something exclusively associated with masculinity. A character displaying traits that are a stereotype of their group is not inherently offensive. It's when the stereotypes are used as the butt of jokes, to be laughed at and not with, and when there is no depth to characters beyond the use of stereotypes (aka they are used to perpetuate ignorance). When there is sufficient knowledge, understanding and respect towards the group in question at the heart of that character's portrayal, that's the most important thing. You can feel with Angel that he is a character that was loved into existence.

Stereotypes can be harmful, but many evolve out of reality. Stereotyping all gay men as feminine and flamboyant is blatantly untrue, but many are! And those who are might relate to Angel Dust's character! I'm not a gay man, but I am an effeminate queer person and a drag queen, and I find a lot of Angel's characterisation relatable! He also reminds me of my friends in the drag and club scene - it makes me think of them with love.

That's not to say it's perfect. I don't really understand what "perfect" representation of a group would be, because it's absolutely impossible to create a character that represents every single facet of one group. It defies the point of representing minorities, which is so important within the media BECAUSE it is an opportunity to demonstrate diversity within marginalised groups. It is for this exact reason that not every single person will wholly relate to characters that they share an identity with. Trying to create a character that represents every aspect of a community would be utterly redundant.

That being said, that's why representation matters, and that's why we need more characters with the same identities and different traits. Within Hellaverse, unless I am mistaken, the only characters that are canonically gay men are also effeminate and flamboyant, which I would like to see change in later seasons. There's always room for improvement. However, as far as queer representation goes in general, I think Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss have a lot to be proud of.

Aaaaaand I'm gonna cry cuz I typed a whole paragraph and accidentally deleted it. FML.

OKAY gonna try and speedrun this from memory. It would have been cool if Angel was genderfluid! I'm non-binary myself, and would love to see Hellaverse have more trans representation. However, I still think Angel Dust's character and experiences resonate with a lot of queer people, and him being cis doesn't negate this. Seeing a male sex worker in a queer abusive relationship is not something I've seen a lot of in the media, and I know his story resonates deeply with queer people, sex workers and survivors of abuse. I think Hazbin deserve a lot of merit for portraying his situation so accurately and with such care.

I think people often don't see the woods for the trees. Often, it's a good thing! We SHOULD be pushing for more representation. It is absolutely imperative that we see more trans character in the media, we should see more under-represented queer identities such as bisexual men. But that doesn't make the representation we have somehow irrelevant or inherently flawed. Hazbin IS flawed. All media has flaws! But I personally don't find these particular criticisms to hold water, and I will always critique through the lense of "does it hurt more than it heals?".

I hope my ramble makes sense!

[venusssssssssss]

ngl i hate the idea that so called feminine men or men who are pretty and like makeup and stuff are automatically gay in peoples' mind. like that says nothing about their sexuality (or gender), i am so tired of these stereotypes. as someone who dated feminine men (who were bisexual same as me, but that's not even important here) or femme presenting people i heard this so many times...This is what is stopping men from experimenting with "feminine" stuff, hobbies, clothes etc. People are so complex; we do not need to put labels on every little shit. Also, every time a famous person who was not dressing masculine or not acting masculine (again i hate saying feminine and masculine as a generalisation but you get it) comes out as gay/bi or says they feel like they are non-binary there's alwaaaaays people who are like "oh, we already knew hhahahaah" (especially straight women that date men who don't wash their ass because that's "gay"). Like no you didn't know shit. There's just many of us out there and you looooove imposing these stereotypes on LGBTQ+ ppl to uphold your heterosexual "superiority". Like ma'am just date smelly men in peace...I know so many women who say they would not date a bisexual man. (remember the YT video "what would be worse? your man cheating on you or him coming out as bisexual?" and most women said them being bisexual would be worse....) LMAO why?! Makes no sense to me. Alsooooo...don't get me started on the stigma on str8 couples where the woman pegs the man. People love calling the man gay. Like no...women have been fucking men in the ass since the ancient times, get on with the programme. Anyways feminine men hit me up

[causesciencethatswhy]

The way jimin presents is much more obviously queer than any other member (purely based on mannerisms, cause if you hear joon or yoongi talking about love for a few minutes you can put two and two together). And his overt queerness makes a lot of cis hetero shippers (or kpop fans ) uncomfortable because they're forced to confront their internalized homophobia and misogyny head on. So they find a way to diminish his importance to the other members or villanise to cartoonish levels to deal with that discomfort.

(I'm the anon you responded to with this^^)

Add onto that how a lot of ARMYs seem to assume that just being a BTS fan makes you an ally/intelligent/a good person, and it's the perfect scenario for some cognitive dissonance. Only that JM haters and Tkkers don't seem to have enough cognitive for it to be anything. Even (maybe especially, even) shipping two men doesn't automatically make you supportive of the queer community and understanding of the struggles just existing as a queer person brings about.

They always clamour "but two gay men wouldn't do xyz in a homophobic country", failing to recognise that queer people have existed through so much worse and still have done things wildly more gay than anything Jikook have done.

There's also a lot of them who only see JM's gender expression and "queer subtext" (meaning fashion choices, and the whole concept of his photofolio + album) while disregarding JK's. Like, that man pulled out the most feminine look and attitude in his "bobs+bangs" Calvin Klein shoot. And he fucking owned it. But instead, at least in my perception, the fandom is split on him: one half genuinely sees and appreciates JKs expression of himself, while the other mostly memes it to death and ridding it of meaning. Any perception of JK as a potentially non-hetero man is forgotten the moment he presents as classically masculine again, aka stereotyping the whole queer community to death.

The latter doesn't happen with JM, because - like you said - he fits the common perception of a gay man. Which is all fun and games for the many "The JM effect" compilations, but for cis shippers it starts sliding into homophobia the moment they need to stop perceiving the members as Ken Dolls and instead treat them as actual human beings with all their complexities, faults and incongruent behaviour.

Which brings me onto Hobi. Now, I don't think he gets it quite as bad as JM.

One reason being that there's simply not as many Yoonminers who aren't mainly tkkers. The latter often uses the former to not be seen as a JM anti, but aside from compilations getting spread to push the "married couple" agenda, they don't focus their attention on it. (Also can the "arguing a lot = being in love/married" thing plz die? As someone whose grandparents argue every 20 minutes (real numbers) it's the actual worst and not really a reflection of romance...)

Another one is that Yoonminers do not care about original content at all. From what I've seen during my baby army days, they pick and choose everything down to the tiniest detail. So they mostly ignore that Hobi even exists as a possible variable.

Which brings me to my next point, which kinda breaks my heart: I don't think a lot of shippers in general, and the tkk/ym crowd in particular, see Hoseok as someone to focus their attention on. He gets forgotten a LOT, relegated to the fun sidekick comic relief while the ships are the mc's. (Which is why, imho, it's always his releases a lot of the fandom doesn't care about/actively ignores). The actual deep founded love every single member of BTS has for him - to the point they should actually propose - is insane. How can you think Ym is more real than Sope or Jihope? How can people be that willfully obtuse?

As someone who thinks Jikook could be real (2019, I am looking at you), I had my doubts seeing Jihope interact a few times. But what gets me is how fucking whipped Hobi gets every time he watches Jikook be all adorable. He looks at them like the proud BFF who got them together. A lot of that is his general love for the maknae line and his personality, but that level? The instances of it happening?

...

.......

This was a lot. Okay.

Tl;dr: BTS are human beings, also Hoseok is the best person on the planet probably. Be gay, do crime🏳️‍🌈

Even (maybe especially, even) shipping two men doesn't automatically make you supportive of the queer community and understanding of the struggles just existing as a queer person brings about.

This!! Is so key to everything wrong with a large group of shippers and even solo fans. This idea that because you ship on m/m ship over the other, you are no way capable of making homophobic assumptions and statements. To a lot of shippers shipping a potentially queer couple is just another way to fulfill some forbidden romance fantasy of theirs and not actual concern for the lived reality of queer couples in conservative countries.

Which is why the painful torture of two boyfriends being torn apart from each other like star crossed lovers sounds more palatable and realistic to tkkrs than a queer couple deciding to stick by each other's side through thick and thin, despite the risks. It's less spicy I guess, but who cares of queer joy when the dramatics of the other possibility is so much more enticing.

Everytime I see tkkrs make the whole, "being gay in the military is forbidden so a gay couple would never risk going together" argument, a part of my soul dies. I don’t know what's more offensive, the idea that a closeted couple will just forget how to behave around each other after potentially years of being together because Gays and their crazy sex drives, am I right?

Or the alternative explanation that queer people in conservative countries just never make risky descions for the sake of their partners because the law forbids them from even existing.

Both explanations are tone deaf and ignorant of the lived reality of queer people. Its a direct result of straight people dominating shipper spaces. I do sometimes wonder what queer tkkr shippers make of these theories (cause I'm sure they exist as well). Are they perhaps more sane or do they subscribe to this bs as well ?

And oh my gosh yes about jungkook. That boy has very vocally played about with his gender expression and has been the one ignored the most by seriously cis heterosexual fans. This daddy Dom fantasy they project onto him is a bit much though I do think he does enjoy a more masculine cool image for himself as well. Which to the straight mind is confirmation for all their wattpad inspired fantasies of him. It's unfortunate but alas, stereotypes stick , especially those made by people with a very set view of the world.

As for hobi and the ynmner /sope dilemma, I totally get it. Ynmn shippers do tend to get on my nerves from time to time as well and it no doubt does have something to do with the correlation of them to the tkkr subgroup. I have grown fond of the ynmn dynamic since my baby army days I must admit though, because you can clearly see how much yoongi genuinely appreciates jimins presence and how jimin relies on yoongi for emotional comfort. It is sweet, but yeah I don't necessarily see anything else going on there.

Same goes for sope honestly. Nothing has ever made me seriously question them, except the sunshine bf with grumpy bf dynamic they do fit into very perfectly. They also clearly rely on each other for emotional support (Bring Hobi, hes my vitamin 🥺) but yeah Nothing as eye raising ig ? But yes, i can completely see why it's so frustrating to see how Hobi is dismissed within other shipping dynamics similar to the treatment j/m has gotten. Hobi does tend to get overlooked a lot in these bts dynamic discussions when he very much does embody the heart of the group and the members love for him is so heartfelt and grand, we really seriously underestimate his significance to keeping the bts spirit in line all these years.

I love my ball of sunshine who holds and even bottles up a lot emotionally for the sake of his fans and the team. And he always deserves more appreciation by everyone in the fandom (myself included)

Ps. Jihope in that one 2020 music bank live was definitely a 👀 moment lol.

[theradicalscrivener]

I think one of the reasons I like you so much as an author, is that your stories involving cock shrinking aren't always about humiliating the guy who got their cock shrunk. And that the shrinking is not a punishment for cheating or jealousy, or a cuckolding fantasy (which is the most common kind of stories I find that involve cock shrinking written with straight couples in mind). Maybe it's because your stories focus on gay men and relationships, so it doesn't get stuck on ideas of patriarchal masculinity.

It's very difficult to find anyone writing about small dick/cock shrinking where the guy appreciates it or loves it. I think that's one of the reasons I always will cherish Acorn.

Even though you do include humiliation in those stories sometimes... I just really like how you you approach it. I think I especially love when you add a little of appreciation even in primarily humiliation stories. Like in Gifted Exchange, where a small part of Blake seems to enjoy his tiny dick even if he is full of despair about it. He doesn't like it, necessarily. But a small part of him enjoys it. And that makes me crazy. I'm obsessed with that feeling.

Well, that's all I wanted to write. Hopefully I wasn't too weird.

Good luck on your projects!

Funny story up top. When I wrote No Dick December, I didn't know that this was an established genre or that there was a market for it. It was literally a comment I heard made by a douchey co-worker at work. He was like "girls who participate in no shave november are going to participate in no dick december" and I was like. Wow. What a douchebag and oh. That's a fun idea. It was fun because it let me experiment with some of my darker thoughts, but once I realized that this was a genre that was already established, I was like. Oh, that's really cool actually. I love weird transformation stories, but I get really burnt out on going really dark. Wouldn't it be fun if I did a dink shrink story that was also kind of fun?

It kind of tied into an idea that I enjoyed with hyper stuff. Like, there's a point where the initial rush begins to wear off, and the dude is like. Oh shit. This won't fit in my pants. This is a bad idea. I need to not do this, but there's a dark urge in the back of his mind like. Dude, this fucking rocks! I really love toying with the idea of like, the logical mind being like. Wait. This is bad, right? and the... maybe not horny mind. More like, the part of this person's mind that is honest with themselves even though it flies in the face of what others would say.

Like, Acorn was really big about this. I referenced Travis's gym bros repeatedly in the story but they never actually show up until the epilogue. Every scene, even the ones that don't take place at the diner, Travis is either alone or with someone who is encouraging him. I think that had he gone to the gym after his first training shift and it was there that he started to realize that his dick was a little smaller, he may have panicked. Like, his gym bros would have been like

"It's not that cold in here, dude," *snicker*

"Shut up. It's still way bigger than yours..."

I don't think Travis would have quit right then and there, but he would have spiraled harder.

In fact, I had originally written a scene where Travis runs into one of his gym bros at the showers before class. (After he and Curtis had fooled around in the cafeteria). It was... I don't think it was a bad scene, but Travis was very passive during it. Curtis basically had to defend him, and I was like... I don't think Travis is ready for this. I want him to be able to defend himself. It's important for his personal growth that he's the one standing up to this guy. Also, it was a bit of a downer and I really liked how fun and flirty the whole story had been despite teasing these ideas that Travis had these anxiety issues.

Come to think of it "anxiety issues" defines a lot of my favorite characters. Troy was a bundle of nerves at the beginning before the twins really got him to relax. He still spirals every so often, but he's not as anxious as before. Devon and Noah were side characters that were really not intended to have a major impact on the story, but I got kinda fascinated by them.

Devon isn't as overtly anxious as other characters, but he does have some issues that are more a result of like, he's a quiet/shy person but also intensely independent and he was kind of infantalized by his family so this whole wanting to be independent vs slowly realizing that he did need to ask for help sometimes vs not wanting to be treated the way he was treated by his family kind of made the core of his internal issues.

Noah, however, is very much the archetype I mentioned earlier which is this dude is super anxious and finds out that not only is he super into something kinda freaky, but he has the ability to reach out and grab it. He's that type of character cranked to 11 which makes him a lot of fun. Also, every time I get a chance to have Noah and Rex feed off of each others' vibes is a ton of fun. I know some people are like "why did you make Noah so small" the answer is, I set his size based off of Rex's. I wanted him to have an almost literal imp on his shoulder.

But typing back to your original point, I feel like I often like to play off this idea that even the humiliation is enjoyable to a certain degree, and that both feeds the enjoyment which feeds the humiliation which feeds the enjoyment... Even in a non humiliation setting this feedback loop of "I shouldn't be enjoying this, but the fact that I am enjoying it makes it more fuck uo, which makes the fact that I shouldn't be enjoying it even *more* fucked up which makes the enjoyment even great!" it just a very fun spiral to go down.

[crosbyism]

re: fandom feminization (sorry for beating this horse) - one of the things that definitely bothers me most as someone who actually does enjoy a certain amount of feminization in fic really is when looking at a fic of two men in a very masculine environment who are being written as gay- WHY is it so common to write them as though they are a heterosexual man and woman in a heterosexual relationship? specifically the kind of egregiously heteronormative relationship that makes people rage against media with relationships LIKE that for being misogynistic??? ykwim? one cooks and cleans and cries and has emotions and does the emotional labor and calms down the controlling and upset/angry or emotionless other man because he's the girlfriend and the pretty princess girlboy - GUYS why is that the standard relationship dynamic here, they're supposed to be queer men, why are you making a queer relationship so fucking BAD hetero, the antisemitist kind 😭 and it really is like always the smaller guy, the "prettier" guy who's nicer and more palatable to project femininity onto. across all fandoms no matter what. i don't even want to think about the infantilization that goes hand in hand with some of this. that's a rant best left alone 💀 anyways feel free to delete, i'm just another person the masculinization posts resonated with and i appreciate seeing others feel the same !

anon i feel u dot org. it’s not my cup of tea either. i think it’s important to keep in mind that fandom works do not have the same “responsibility” (in as much there’s any responsibility in storytelling to be had at all, but that’s a whole different topic i won’t get into) in storytelling as traditional media, being very personal expressions of creativity first and foremost. people are simply into writing this type of thing for themselves, and that’s exactly what they should do without shame. i very much do understand why people would write those kinda dynamics (any number of reasons from “i want to project heteronormativity onto a queer relationship for personal catharsis” to “i want to explore this kind of dynamic” to “lol crackfic” to “i just feel like it idk”, all of which are totes fine and cool). personally i really don’t feel drawn to it at all. rip fanon mitch marner i guess.

what’s interesting is that it really is like that in every fandom. sometimes it get me sad that a lot of gender play in fandom is so cisheteronormative. like, there’s so much potential to get weird and strange with it, y’know? i would love a lot of more non cisheteronormative gender play fics. or, man, i would kill for a guy to finger his coach and go “oh, the menopause is making you drier, huh? that’s alright, i’ve got the lube right here, i’ll get you nice and wet, don’t worry” and service him like he’s a hot cougar’s young stud.

there’s a couple of rare gems in the hrpf tag re: slightly non-traditional gender play for sure, but it def isn’t the majority. i also think cause the majority of gender play in fandom is so cishet it kinda repels people who don’t like that from writing or getting into that in general, so clearly we need to fix this out here and reclaim the genderplay lol. make genderplay queerer 2024

(side note: i think you might be using antisemitist wrong? is that a typo? i don’t think you meant “bigoted towards jewish people” there? lol? that was confusing)