#ff7 intermission spoilers

[sometimesrufus]

"So you know how, in Remake, the main branch of Avalanche shows up to raid Shinra? It is heavily implied (particularly after the release of the Yuffie DLC) that their presence there is a direct result of Rufus."

how was it implied that they were there as a result of rufus

Ah -cracks knuckles- time to revisit some Remake cutscenes!

But first, just for a more complete background on my thoughts, a big part of my take comes from what we know about Rufus's role as the main source of funds for Avalanche in Before Crisis. It's unclear what of BC still holds for the purposes of Remake, but these are basically the moments I see the game making nods to that, even though (theoretically) by the time of Remake, Rufus and Avalanche should have long ago parted ways.

Tseng's phone call.

"The VP needs us."

The next we see the Turks, they're with Rufus, on the helipad at the top of Shinra tower. Rufus had no clue who Cloud even was at this point. He certainly wasn't there to fight him. He was there to kill his dad (not the first time he's tried); Sephiroth just beat him to the punch.

2. Wedge's report from the mayor's office.

Wedge comes on and tells the main party that HQ is there to "flush out the president." Given Rufus's historic relationship to Avalanche and the fact he just called in the Turks, it makes a lot of sense that he was the one to rally the troops. It was all hands on deck to cause the necessary chaos to go commit patricide.

3. Zhijie's tease (from Intermission).

While Solider is trying to beat Zhijie's informant out of him, first he tells them it was Heidegger. When he's told "Wrong answer!" and is hit again, he comes back with, "All right, all right, I'll tell you. It was Rufus."

To me this is either:

a) Zhijie being sassy knowing these guys won't even believe the truth

or

b) SE making a huge wink at their audience who know what's up

(or both, tbh XD)

There may have been a few other throwaway lines from Intermission that I'm not thinking of now, but these are the main three things that, in combination with my knowledge of BC, have formed the foundation of my belief that it was Rufus who called them in.

Thanks for the question! I love theorizing about these games.

ALSO, no spoilers, but in Rebirth there have been some BIG teases between Rufus and a certain other group... I'm withholding commentary until I finish the game, but boy howdy...

[tally-ace]

Real photo of me at 3am making up the most batshit incomprehensible theories about ffvii rebirth while the pause screen burns into my tv.

[tifa-simp]

Ya know, I was thinking about Rebirth today and I remembered this ending of Intermission and got confused.

Cos....where is this Zack? Or rather, WHEN was he?

We know Rebirth!Zack carried Cloud to Midgard, saw the news and immediately rushed to save Aerith. So he can't be at her church practicing hello. Intermission Zack isn't dirty, he doesn't carry Cloud, there's no indication in Rebirth about there are ppl crying in Aerith's church. This cutscene is an entirely different reality from Rebirth.

Like I'm so confused rn, is there more than 1 Zack? Where is this Zack now?? When did this happen??? Does this world get destroyed along the other at the end of Rebirth????

Zack Fair in Final Fantasy VII Remake: Episode INTERmission

[aislingyngaio-games]

Junon and Nibelheim Tifa symbolism through Rebirth lore

This tumblr post is actually further expansion from this twitter thread I made on the relationship between Tifa and Junon that I've noticed. Now that Rebirth is out.... hoo boy idk if I'm overthinking this or if the devs are just this big-brained. Spoiler alert for Rebirth, OBVIOUSLY. You have been warned.

Part 1: Phoenix, Deity of Junon Region

So to begin with, I'd like to draw your attention to what actually first attracted my attention to the possibly deliberate symbolism of Junon: the combination of the regional deity (Phoenix) and the regional chocobo (Belle the mountain chocobo).

As is obvious to any Final Fantasy fan by now, Phoenix is the summon of fire and life/rebirth, two themes important to Cloud and Tifa, both of whose childhoods "died" in the Nibelheim fire and massacre five years ago and yet "reborn", or rather survived, from the ashes of their fallen hometown because of their promise and bond with each other. They are each other's proofs they are who they are: Cloud and Tifa from Nibelheim. As a sea-facing town with an underwater reactor (even Under Junon is named "Sea Dragon Square"), wouldn't it have been more thematically appropriate to have Junon worship either the Leviathan (admittedly Leviathan is the guardian deity of Wutai in FF7 lore, but Wutai was pushed to pt3, and it didn't stop Leviathan from being a Chadley-earned summon in Remake either) or Shiva deities (which is the summon you get in OG Junon from Priscilla) instead of Phoenix, unless the switch was a deliberate narrative choice? After all, as I've posted in my original Twitter thread, Junon is the first place Real Cloud truly tries hard to "awaken" SOLDIER Cloud into speaking with Tifa. This is translated in Rebirth into Cloud and Tifa's reconciliation after their falling out at Kalm, and Tifa's relationship wheel being the non-optional, story-mandated dialogue choice in this chapter. The Rebirth-themed summon in the Rebirth-named game being set in the Junon region over all other regions? HMMMMMMMM. (And nobody better forget that Mr Dolphin <-> Tifa's limit break Dolphin Blow parallel either ;) )

Also, OG callback: Phoenix summon was actually obtained from Fort Condor in OG, and guess what huge ass creature immediately appeared the moment the party exited the Junon-side entrance of Mythril Mines? Aye, the Giant Condor. The protorelic sidequest in Junon is also linked to the Fort Condor minigame (a variation of the boardgame from FF7 Remake Intermission) that specifically chose to magick both Cloud and Tifa (as well as Barret) in to do battle. And of course, the "Dreaming of Blue Skies" Tifa-related sidequest in Junon region involves baiting the Giant Condor with bovine meat to take a picture of (and while waiting, they sky-gazed together at the clouds).

(Side Crisis Core tangent: Phoenix's materia is obtained from - guess where - NIBELHEIM WATER TOWER, as the first part of the Seven Wonders of Nibelheim sidequest)

(Side simulation tangent: The Phoenix simulation Chadley makes for the Rebirth team to fight can summon Bombs, which is one of the two bracelet charms Tifa is prominently featured with in the Retrilogy, the other being Chocobo, which usually symbolizes Cloud)

(Side LOVELESS tangent: The summon that Rosa calls to defeat Varvados looks amazingly like the Phoenix summon, and the resultant ending motif - the fiery destruction of Guardia, the mutual protection of Alphreid and Rosa, and the unpromised promise of fidelity and reunion - most resembles the destruction of Nibelheim, the mutual protection between Cloud and Tifa - Cloud as Tifa's physical protector & Tifa [being Cloud's motivation] as Cloud's emotional protector, and the fulfilled yet voluntarily continual fulfillment of the promise at the water tower between them)

Part 2: Odin, Deity of Nibel Region

Now what of the actual place of Cloud and Tifa's births? Well the regional deity is, appropriately, Odin, Norse god of death, while the regional chocobo is Selena Shirena (in JP romaji), the blue ocean chocobo.

Odin in OG is also obtained from Nibelheim (specifically Shinra Mansion), and interestingly, when linked with "Added Effect" materia on an armour piece, can provide immunity to instant death on the wearer, while if the same pair of linked materia is equipped on a weapon, it can cause instant death. This is a most curious and most pertinent symbolism for the birthplace of not only the only two people in the FF7 party to have ever tasted Masamune blade first and survived (rip to the other Nibel villagers though) but also, thematically tragically, the birthplace of Sephiroth, whose destructive powers with said blade are legendary. Not forgetting of course, that central in the stories of Nibelheim is "the other side of the mountain" being a local reference to the mythical/thematic land of the dead (remember which two characters are pictured on the Mt Nibel side of the two Rebirth Nibelheim keyarts?).

Part 3: Junon/Nibel Connection via Regional Chocobo Abilities

From Junon region, we have Belle the grey mountain chocobo (which btw, is a requirement to reach the Phoenix summon crystals that will both weaken the simulation fight and strengthen the summon materia), and a clearer parallel cannot help being drawn to Cloud and Tifa hailing from the village of Nibelheim located at the base of MOUNT NIBEL, where both share memories being on that mountain (once when Tifa was 8 and Cloud 9, and again when Tifa was 15 and Cloud 16 - SEVEN years apart). Similarly, the Nibel region chocobo - required to access the Odin summon crystal - is Shirena the blue ocean chocobo, making both Junon and Nibel chocobo abilities the diametrically opposite elements of their region's most significant landscape/towns - Junon the ocean-facing city with the mountain chocobo, and Nibelheim the mountain-shadowed village with the ocean chocobo.

(Side Costa del Sol tangent: Cloud's blue shirt swimsuit is named "Ocean Chocobo" which makes for it being the Nibel region Chocobo ability seems accidentally on purpose appropriate, as well as being the more "real Cloud" of the two swimsuit options for him imo, while the Wild Surf option seems too... Zack minus the sunflower, so basically the SOLDIER Cloud option)

So, let's now look at the symbolism of Junon and Nibelheim together, as both mirrors and opposites, as parts of a whole.

Junon and Nibelheim

Phoenix and Odin

Life and death

Mountain and ocean

East continent and west continent

Taken together, the bond between Junon and Nibelheim almost looks like the endless cycle of death and life/rebirth, which is very symbolic of how the Lifestream works (those who are born from the Lifestream return to the Lifestream). Just as Phoenix is both life and destruction, just as Odin can be both death and protection, it is the complementary, symbiotic love of Cloud and Tifa, at once opposites yet similar, at once separate but a team, both strong yet each having their own weaknesses that the other balances, that ultimately is most emblematic of the lifecycle of the planet.

It is no wonder then, that Tifa is the one chosen by the planet and the WEAPONs, both in OG when Sapphire Weapon caused the distraction that allowed her to both embody yet subvert her role as the Andromeda of Greek legend by enabling her to save herself from her execution at Junon with the help of friends, and in Rebirth when the Gongaga WEAPON choose to show her the true struggle of the planet that she might reach Final Heaven, and be the heroine who will save and stay by the hero's side till the end.

[openphrase123]

no mirabelle monday inutile update this week, so. tiny author infodump about the first act and of the fic below the cut (spoiler alert for the fic up to the current chapter, chapter 11) and also maybe some stuff about what to expect for act two??

this is probably obvious but i'm having SO!! MUCH!!! FUN!!!! BEING EVIL!!!!!!! every time someone yells in the comments or wails in despair i gain so much life. i'm serious about the fic tag about the story ending happily but holy hell i'm going to make everyone work for that happy ending

anyway when i was writing i was scratching at the walls of my enclosure during every chapter the siffrin namedrop didn't happen. geez it took so long for siffrin to get their canon name. why did i do it like that. (i know exactly why i did it like that)

the red formatting. i did that on a whim in the second chapter and went "hold on. if i can do that here i can do this Anywhere" and now #FF0000 is my best friend

i was struggling with what to put in the visions of the future because. i don't want to give everything away. but also i have learned from dnd that you can drop literally anything in a paragraph like that and 90% of people at the table won't connect the dots because context is everything. i thought people would get that siffrin was a star in the eclipse chapter but only a few people really caught on by then

there are a few lines and paragraphs that get repeated more than once, and that is. extremely intentional :) i will not list all of them but here are the highlights

ch1 | ch11

ch1 | ch8

ch1 | ch4

and also some lines that will be Very Fun in hindsight of act 2 tee hee

i'm currently at this very moment finishing off the jouvente chapter... i have a lot of the other chapters after that written in sections, and all of the chapters up to jouvente done (intermission and one other) but like. whew. the other party members really make this fic bangin.

by the time the jouvente chapter comes out i'll be posting the isabeau angst document. and let me tell you those two are FUN to read back to back. my new favorite pastime is bothering isabeau in new innovative ways

odile in act two is also. oh my god. i can't say it at all but i love her. i did this in curtain call but i love writing odile as a catalyst to Problems, like without her the Problems still would have popped up but she's just being economical about it. her catalyst in this fic is, admittedly, less mean, but it's still there

bonnie. smiles. i don't want to talk about bonnie yet.

and siffrin - well i don't really know who that is!! too bad!!!

i don't think i've said it in any official channels yet, i've mostly alluded to it in comments - but loop IS in this fic. slightly differently than canon though. i shan't say. i think they'd be a little different considering the situation i've put them in. still the same vibes though

anyway. act two. i said this in a comment also but it's very much structured like a novelization of a jrpg. which i am having a lot of fun with. there's a tutorial fight and everything. as well as your Typical JRPG Travel Locations (that vision of the future is Not Lying the fancy paper mario train is here) (no ff7 golden saucer though i am Sorry)

and. if you have made it this far. you have passed my test here is a preview for next week's chapter

[crimsonxe]

FF7/FF7R spoilers/potential spoilers below the cut (though this is like 26 year old spoiler):

I want to shatter some bullshit aimed at "Aerith lives" fans and yes fans cause fuck anyone that wants to act like by doing that you don't understand/grasp the game. a) it has nothing to do with shipping for ones like me and everything to do with love of the damn character (inb4 anyone thinks its her over Tifa, its not I love both), which also leads into b) it can easily damn well fit into this multiverse version of the story. In other words as much "fanservice" as her dying for the "Aerith must die" crowd. Oh and Nomura's quote in Game Informer is not confirmation of anything, he's not an idiot that's going to spoil a major story point ahead of time like that.

I've already seen the bad end route of Advent Children & Dirge (and fuck you if you think it isn't exactly that), which still exists for those that want that. I want either the good (Aerith of one universe dies, while the other lives or even Cloud being the one to fall instead) or golden (no one dies) end instead to go alongside the OG not in replacement of it. Because that timeline/branch already exists separately, which also pretty much erases the need for the events that require Aerith's death. Sephiroth would already know about Holy, which didn't even work fully the first time around anyway. As shown in Advent Children where not only did Jenova/Sephiroth get into the Lifestream; but the latter managed to physically manifest even if temporarily. Not to mention now having seemingly found a way to project or actually go back to an earlier point in time, thus mooting Holy at all. Hell even having Cloud go down fits into his going away for a portion of the story, before returning later.

I will always root for SE to go for the golden, but will accept the good; which seems to have been setup with the two Aeriths shown in the Game Awards trailer. One dies, one lives and SE get to have their cake and eat it too; though I'm sure the purists will bitch about it. That doesn't make me or anyone else less of a fan or less knowing about the damn story. I've played Crisis Core, FF7, Dirge of Cerberus, watched Advent Children AND AC Complete, FF7R, and Intermission; so more than earned the right to metaphorically wear a FF7 fan emblem on my person. So damn tired of purist edgelord jackasses acting like they have sole jurisdiction of "fan", while thumbing their nose at anyone not wishing for a repeat event in a game that is clearly trying new things. I'm not an edgelord, sue me.

Also really telling that some of the same people bitch about Cid not being a sexist asshole; like gtfo it. He's so much better off without that element to his character.

[sephirthoughts]

the most underappreciated characters in the entire series there i said it

WEISS & NERO

[contritecactite]

Ok I have to get this down somewhere and this is technically my blog even if I'm certain no one is following it for my thoughts on ff7! Spoiler-free overview talk below.

Background context: I played the original like 15 years ago, played Crisis Core when it came out and Dirge when I upgraded to a PS2, watched Advent Children and ACC. Didn't deep dive into things that didn't get localized, and I never got the hang of mobile games, so I know I'm missing some super special lore details. Still think I have enough to work with, though.

Plus! Some of my longest-running friendships stem from a shared love of the game/compilation. But we're not here to talk about that.

I loved Remake a ton. I adore adaptation and change, and I loved the way Midgar came to life. I think the game did a great job at being the beginning of a big story and at dropping enough mystery to get new players invested. This meant shifting around some story elements and adjusting the relevance of some characters/sequences/etc. and, in some cases, adding new characters. All fine! It was setup. They gave us a lot of characters and a lot of time and reasons to care about them.

But... I don't think Rebirth delivers the payoff. I can somewhat forgive the grindy nature of the open world approach because it is properly optional. What I'm having a harder time with is the way the story proceeds... or doesn't.

Rebirth takes its job as the middle of the story very seriously—to a fault, I think. There are half a dozen B-plots going on, and some of them are so heavily obfuscated that I don't even know if they'll register to newcomers (especially those who don't pursue all side quests and world intel). Not a single one is fully resolved. There are even more characters, and I don't think we're given what we need to care about them the same way as Remake's supporting cast. It's an extended trail of different flavors of breadcrumbs... and that's great for something with a brief intermission, but we have no ETA on the conclusion.

If even I feel like I'm being strung along, I can't help but worry that players who are just entering the story with Remake or Rebirth are going to have trouble feeling invested enough to await the conclusion eagerly. (Not everyone, of course—some people live for that kind of suspense!)

There are more granular things I'd love to talk about, but as an official opinion now that it's done: I feel unsatisfied, but not dissatisfied. I hope the lack of closure is enough to bring new players back for the finale, but I don't think it would work for me if I hadn't been in it for the long haul from the beginning.

[glowyjellyfish]

…so here’s my FF7 fanmix. It’s an eternal work in progress, but this is the most stable incarnation before Rebirth hits and gives me new ideas. A few of these songs have been on my list basically since the original ff7 came out. I’m pretty happy with most of it—Yuffie and Red need work, Barret, Aerith, and Cid need more songs, and although I like the narrative I constructed with Vincent’s songs the tone is all over the place, but conversely I adore the Tifa section. I just figured I’d finally share what I have, see if anybody out there had any bright ideas, and let other people see if they like mine.

These are based on the OG, with Remake providing lots of inspiration. There will be spoilers for anybody unfamiliar with the OG, more than just The One Spoiler everybody knows, some vaguer than others.

Cloud

Bullet With Butterfly Wings by Karen O (I know this is cheating but it’s such a good song for him!)

Seven Nation Army by Seven Nation Army

Break Out by Foo Fighters

Best Imitation of Myself by Ben Folds Five

When She Was Bad by Buffering the Vampire Slayer

Hollow by Yosh (also cheating, but too good not to use)

Who Are You, Really? by Mikky Ekko

All These Things That I’ve Done by The Killers (I think this is a pretty popular song for Cloud fanmixes)

Still by Ben Folds

Butterflies and Hurricanes by Muse

Invincible by OK Go

Barret

We Will Rock You by Queen

Uprising by Muse

Still Swingin by Papa Roach

Ready Aim Fire by Imagine Dragons

Big Yellow Taxi by Counting Crows

Angel Down (Work Tape) by Lady Gaga

Tifa

All the King’s Horses by Kamina

That Distant Shore by Rebecca Sugar

It Takes All Kinds by Aimee Mann

Breaking Up Girl by Garbage

Hush by Buffering the Vampire Slayer

Losing My Religion by R.E.M.

How Not To Drown by CHVRCHES & Robert Smith

Back to the Start by Mr Little Jeans

Shake It Out by Florence + the Machine

Dogs Days Are Over by Florence + the Machine

Braver Than We Are from Dance of the Vampires (look… just listen to this song if you can find it and try and tell me not to include it. I had to!)

Aerith

We Are by Ana Johnson

Somewhere Over the Black Parade by Zoe Zoller (so… this is a mashup of Welcome to the Black Parade and Somewhere Over the Rainbow from an amateur theater production. It’s amazing and absolutely perfect for Aerith, but you will not be able to find it and I don’t know if it is okay for me to share it. Just FYI.)

On My Own by Peach Union

Stand My Ground by Within Temptation

Never Let Me Go by Florence + the Machine

Nanaki

(I have really struggled to find songs for him over the years; these are fine but I think he needs more)

Dirty Paws by Of Monsters and Men

Run Boy Run by Woodkid

Babylon by Barns Courtney

Blood Like Lemonade by Morcheeba

Little Lion Man by Mumford & Sons

Heartlines by Florence + the Machine

Welcome to the Black Parade by My Chemical Romance

Twisted Logic by Coldplay

Yuffie

(I was a bit inspired by Intermission, but she still needs a lot of work)

Just a Girl by No Doubt

Something That I Want by Grace Potter

Mutiny, I Promise You by The New Pornographers

Boomerang by Lucy Schwartz

A Little Less Conversation by Elvis Presley (cover from Megamind)

Opportunities by Pet Shop Boys

The Future by Mystery Skulls

Feel It Still by Portugal. The Man

Reeve

(Cait Sith has a separate section below, although my view is that they are both Reeve)

Road to Joy by Bright Eyes

The Logical Song by Supertramp

Natural by Imagine Dragons

Scapegoat by Chumbawamba (one of the songs I put on here in the 90s before I understood what it was about, and now it reminds me of him even if it doesn’t totally work)

So Called Chaos by Alanis Morisette

Mowgli’s Road by Marina and the Diamonds

LIES GREED MISERY by Linkin Park (my Angry Reeve song!)

Diminishing Returns by Harvey Danger

Consequences by Buffering the Vampire Slayer (thinking about removing this one)

Cait Sith

(I think he’s basically the same person as Reeve, but he does have different vibes which requires different songs. Could use some ideas; these were just fun to give him and may not be as apt as they should be. I’m hoping Rebirth will give me inspiration.)

I Am Not A Robot by Marina and the Diamonds (recently added, may need a new position or something)

The Check’s In the Mail by Weird Al

Heist by Ben Folds

Win Or Lose by Foo Fighters

Vincent

(he is a bit of a mess; I struggled to find good songs for him and am constantly adding a bunch and removing a bunch. I think what I have is okay, and I do like the narrative I constructed here, but the tone is all over the place and I really don’t have any Perfect songs for him.)

Hopelessly Devoted to You by Kristin Chenowith (yeah, the Pushing Daisies version because I have it. I could really use a darker cover for him.)

Back to Black by Amy Winehouse

Gaeta’s Lament by Bear McCreary

The Abandoned Castle of My Soul by The Gothic Archies

Parades Go By by The Magnetic Fields

Some Kind of Monster by Neon Trees

Animal I Have Become by Three Days Grace

Howl by Florence + the Machine

It’s Over Isn’t It by Deedee Magno Hall

Blinding by Florence + the Machine

Beauty and the Beasts by Buffering the Vampire Slayer

Cid

Firefly - Main Title by Sonny Rhodes

Flying by Blue Rodeo

Holiday by Green Day

We Are the Champions by Queen

Sephiroth

Liquid Smooth by Mitski

Let It Go (Epic Metal Cover) by Connor Engstrom

Wild by Poe

Holding Out For a Hero by Nothing But Thieves

Apocalypse Please by Muse

Hellbent by Mystery Skulls

And So It Went by The Pretty Reckless

I Just Wanna Be God by Alice Cooper

Zack

(his songs are kind of a mixed bag, although the last two are great. I hope to get inspired by Rebirth.)

Bud Like You by AJR

Shake It Off by Scott Bradlee’s Postmodern Jukebox

Battle Cry by Ludo

Brothers In Arms by Dire Straits

Soldier by Tommie Lee Profitt & Fluerie

The Turks

Come On Come On by Smash Mouth

Ballroom Blitz by Sweet

Goody Two Shoes by Adam Ant

Istanbul (Not Constantinople) by They Might Be Giants

…plus the odd song or two for other characters or general purposes that I’m really not sure about.

I probably should have tried making a Spotify playlist to share or something, but to be fair I hate Spotify.

[iaintyourbro]

The Unknown Journey Continues

Part 1

I know it's been a while... but I've been going down a rabbit hole with @starlight-samurai regarding time loops, Jenova, Minerva, and more fun. So I figured I'd try to put it into one post to get the insanity out of my head. Everything in here is based on things we've found by either going through more obscure Ultimanias, learning more about Dirge of Cerberus and trying to decipher what the hell Jenova is by putting together various sources - including other Square Enix games - and how they handled freakishly similar scenarios.

Did you know there is a companion mobile game for it that was out on the good old flip phones? Did you know there was an online mode in Dirge of Cerberus only available in Japan, but had story elements that were not in the main game?

The sad part is, there's still so much to go through...

(I've also had various discussions with @ourfinalheaven, Manu, who doesn't have Tumblr, so here is her Twitter. and Somebody's Nightmare (here is her Twitter). So I wanted to tag them here, as it's much more fun to discuss these ideas as a group, since it'll only help you build on and strengthen your own ideas.)

Please be aware, there will be Spoilers for FFVII - Almost all Compilation titles, Xenogears, and NieR Automata throughout this.

So let's go on a journey where we explore what actually already exists in the compilation - including the idea of the whispers and timeloops - how Minerva may play into everything, and what exactly Jenova is capable of doing.

I asked Sesi if he'd ever played any of the NieR games, because he'd said something that made me wonder if they were going to take a similar approach. As a very, very quick high level summary: NieR Automata deals with a time loop type of idea. The androids will be rebooted and repeat the same things over and over again. This is broken when 2B is killed by A2 because she becomes infected with a virus. That being said, you have the option after Ending E to either erase all of your data and end the cycle OR you can try again. The Pods have a discussion, and one asks, "But won't they just do the same thing again?" and the other replies with "Maybe. But it could also be different this time."

Here's Sesi's message back to me when I asked him about this (cleaned up a bit since we were having a casual conversation over Discord):

Maybe I could just guess based comparatively on the Dirge storyline, because that was sort of SE's first flirtation with “robots and androids” since they’re all programmed and locked behind like task managers and shit that can shut them down. The story of the online mode for DoC that came out in Japan, we never got to see it, you’re basically an Android OC and you have to get to “the end of the level” and then essentially die, and a new one takes its place. This keeps happening until Weiss is essentially freed from being able to be task managed by the guys who are suppose to be able to control them and I know from tons of years with Square games that they’re verrrrry bad at differentiating their narratives they tend to just keep “ripping themselves off” so is it anything close to that?

Cuz if so I think I kinda know what you’re saying and yeah, I agree, I think with CC bringing in its poetic symbolism and LOVELESS, and DoC bringing back the cyclic nature of the lore, whispers, premonitions and future visions, proto-Materia and the perversion of this next cycle since the planet can no longer cleanse and protect itself and its will is weakening lesser and lesser to the point where it’s fate is “in a true sense of jeopardy This time essentially it’s all tied in together and sort of played as though it's a fated track; a cycle of events and something has hitched it, thus the whispers manifesting and Sephiroth's higher implied control over his destiny. Of course, even all that is just their new red herring game, but it’s definitely a part of the lore they want to play with, in order to go back and reMAKE the OG with the comp inserted from inception. Also gut punch a lot.

Time Loops

I was somewhat surprised to find out that this concept is NOT new to FFVII's universe. It's discussed in Dirge of Cerberus... probably one of the least played and least understood of the compilation. (Trying to sell a third person shooter with terrible controls to a market of mostly people used to turn-based combat wasn't going to go well.)

On top of it, we didn't even get all of it, since online mode was never released outside of Japan, and the Dirge of Cerberus Lost Episode was on Amp'd Mobile and Verizon flip phones back in 2006. Were you around for the cell phones in 2006? I had the ones on the list, and how somebody could play a game on those blows my mind.

Square has a tendency to reuse themes from their other titles. Probably one of the most blatant is the similarities between Xenogears and Final Fantasy VII. They were both being developed at the same time and a lot of ideas that didn't make it into FFVII ended up in Xenogears.

NieR

So how does this work? In NieR (both Replicant and Automata), you play the same path multiple times. Each time, it's slightly different depending on what side quests you did your first and second playthrough, but there's also other subtle differences throughout the story. In Automata, you get to play as 2B your first playthrough and 9S for your second. They follow the same path, but you get it from his perspective the second time and it reveals a bit more of what is going on. However, even with some slight differences, the main plot points stay the same and the ending result it also the same.

Then on your third playthrough, you wake up in the Bunker, and you're getting ready to go on a new mission. This time, though, 2B is killed and shit hits the fan. Things get crazy, you play as a new character: A2. In the end, pretty much everyone "dies", but you can choose to "reboot" and try again. You also can say you are done and let them all rest and delete your save data (the game gives you the option for both Automata and Replicant, and with Replicant, it actually leads to a new ending).

The striking thing for me is... There are certain events that will always happen, no matter what.

Fixed Points in Time

It's been years since I've watched Doctor Who, but there was something that stuck with me, and that was the fixed points in time. You can read about all of them here, but here's the basics:

Now, of course Doctor Who goes into this with much more detail and it's a recurring theme. However, as you read through that page, you'll probably find many aspects that have been used in various JRPGs that you've played. And Doctor Who most likely pulled some of the idea from classic Science Fiction novels. Each story puts its own spin on it.

How does this relate to FFVII Remake? Well, when they say that the major plot points will stay the same, it reminds me of this. No matter what, Cloud must fall into the Sector 5 Church, the Sector 7 Plate must be dropped, Aerith and Zack both must die, and Meteor has to be summoned, to name a few. So, with a time loop, those things would still have to take place in order to prevent a complete collapse of reality (at least in how Doctor Who uses it).

Therefore, the Whispers are ensuring that the Will of the Planet is followed.

One of the major themes in FFVII is that of loss. People die and they do not come back. Yes, other FF games do allow this to happen (FFX, FFXIII, FFXV), but VII is not those games. It was written with that idea in mind, that once a person dies, they, just like in real life, are dead and cannot be brought back.

I've previously written that I think they'll make us believe we are able to change fate, but we will eventually be slammed with the reality that we can't. That is because the planet has determined that certain events are fixed points.

Xenogears

Xenogears takes a bit of a different approach to the loop idea. Instead of repeating the same time period over and over, it has the characters reincarnated, and the same outcome happens each time: Elly dies. However, each time it's different. After all, they're in various time periods, in some cases thousands of years apart.

In all of the lives of Fei (who will have a different name in each time period) and Elly (who is always Elly/Elhaym), Elly will end up dying trying to protect Fei and the others. In one life, she is a religious figure at a totally not Catholic church, in another she's the wife of a scientist who was working to create children from nanomachines due to mass infertility issues. But she is ALWAYS with Fei, even if his name changes.

In her Mother Elhaym time, this is when Lacan (Fei) finally snaps. Though he's not fully aware of his past lives, he becomes aware, the anger consumes him, and he becomes Grahf. Fei is then reborn into the time period you play the game in.

There's a lot to unpack with this, so I won't go into it. Grahf wants to destroy God (Deus) because he thinks if he does, then it'll stop the suffering (his suffering).

If you do want to read more about Grahf, you can do so here, but it probably won't make much sense unless you've played Xenogears up to that point... Since it's much later in the game that this is all explained.

Lacan's desire was to stop the cycle of Elly always sacrificing herself for his sake. Though Grahf is not a perfect existence - he's not fully "The Contact", he sacrifices himself in order to let Fei move forward, and hopefully stop the cycle, by destroying the Deus system. (Elly also tries to sacrifice herself here, but Fei goes after her and stops her.)

Now, some people may think I'm saying that Cloud or somebody is going to do this in order to save Aerith or Zack (or his village or mom), but in FFVII if they do the loop method, I don't think Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and the others are aware of it. Most likely, it's only 'Sephiroth' and Aerith who are aware of it.

How this Could Be used for Final Fantasy VII

I'm stressing could because there's so many different possibilities on how they use this (if they are using this), so please, don't take this as fact. This is based on speculation based on what we know.

A time loop is a great way to explain away the differences in the story that we've seen: Biggs being alive, Wedge living for longer than he should have, etc. Since these are not major plot changes, they can simply say that this time it'll be slightly different... but your fixed points (major plot points) will remain the same.

It's a way to pull in some of the more obscure themes from Dirge of Cerberus and also play with the LOVELESS lore.

It could all simply be a big red herring and it's really just a remake of OG, but with the compilation tied together nicely... since it works much better when it's combined and not in 50 different games, books, movies, etc.

I don't think it's a "sequel" per say, not in the way I generally perceive a sequel. It's more of a loop of the same thing. The question is, when is the loop started and what will cause it to end? When will the planet (if it even is the planet) determine that it's good enough to begin moving forward?

JENOVA, Sephiroth, Genesis, and Minerva - Oh My!

Let's be real... Genesis isn't exactly the most popular character in the FFVII Compilation... but what if they make him one of the most important to the story? //Ducks as various fruits and vegetable are thrown in my direction//

I think what Genesis is probably most known for is his love of LOVELESS. He has the entire thing memorized and randomly says lines from it throughout Crisis Core. LOVELESS lore is still something I'm trying to grasp, so I am not going to comment much on it. Once I understand it more, I'll update this.

...And then this happens. The secret ending for Dirge of Cerberus, where Genesis picks up Weiss. Weiss, who has now been introduced along with Nero in FFVII INTERmission and is an optional ridiculously hard boss in the Shinra battle simulator in chapter 17 of the main story. There is some lore associated with the battle sim - so if you don't plan on beating it or you just can't, you can look up the pre-battle and post-battle cut scenes on YouTube. They're very short, but interesting. (I beat this asshole last night - it's a hell of a fight.)

....To Be Continued because apparently Tumblr won't allow more than 10 images per post now.... Next will be more on JENOVA and Sephiroth along with Minerva.

[finallyfantasy7]

.....and apparently Yuffie knows he was faking it. AAAAND she had a huge crush on Zack when she was 9? Where is this coming from???

Heeeey! Watch it Yuffie, Zack worked there!

Remember? They Shinra SOLDIER guy you.... brutally assaulted, beat up, and utterly defeated in Fort Tamblin.

[zxal]

[priceofreedom]

thinking about the possibility of Zack being taken from us in a different, more painful way now that we know he’s alive

[finallyfantasy7]

Reason I chose no Hojo: Yes, without Hojo there is no Sephiroth, but also

no SOLDIERs

no countless victims of Hojo's experiments

no using Jenova's cells in people

Lucrecia wouldn't have crystallized

Vincent wouldn't have been shot nor had Chaos implanted, he would probably also end up with Lucrecia

Hollander's experiments would have been deemed failures and Angeal and Genesis would probably never discover they were enhanced, nor start degrading

Zack wouldn't have joined SOLDIER and wouldn't have been killed young

no mindless people going to reunion

no Sephiroth the hero attracting young teens to join Shinra

Cloud and Tifa's friends probably wouldn't have gone to work for Shinra

no Nibelheim Incident - Cloud wouldn't have become an experiment, Tifa's father and Cloud's mother wouldn't have been killed

Tifa wouldn't have joined Avalanche

Gast wouldn't have been killed

He and Ifalna would have raised Aerith in peace

Aerith wouldn't have been killed young

There wouldn't have been Underground SOLDIER

Sonon wouldn't have been killed by Nero

Nanaki wouldn't have been imprisoned and experimented on

meteor wouldn't have wiped out Midgar

no geostigma

Shinra would still exist, still use mako, and still have an army of robots and infatrymen, and still have a science department, but would people be so blinded without "heroes" for people to be fans of? And Hojo was a special brand of psychopath, Science Department could have been led by someone like Gast or Reeve, who wouldn't create nearly as much damage even while working for Shinra.

I’m curious!!!~

‼️ Things to Consider!! ‼️

• Sephiroth can still go insane, even if Gen & Angeal are around (tho it would prolly be tougher!)

• Hojo’s existence is pretty essential to Seph’s existence shshshshshhd (do you REALLY not want Seph to exist? 🤣 Remember: he ain’t evil yet in these hypotheticals!!)

• Cloud would never have his amazing adventure of healing/wear a dress if nothing goes wrong

• Seph would never meet Angeal or Gen should he never join ShinRa :,3 (unless he moves to Banora ig lol!)

Just a little fun lol!! <333 Try not to view it too much as “nooo stupid mouse lady doesn’t understand the narrative beauty of all their fates being cursed” (bc, really, option 4 is very valid!!!) 💕

[glamgoblin]

Intergrade/Intermission has successfully destroyed both 2007 me and 2021 me

[drazavonia]

FFVIIR INTERMISSION THEORY

So, lacking a PS5 (which I don't think will be changing anytime soon) I watched the ending of FF7 Episode Intermission and wanted to theorize on "a scene".

SPOILERS

The singularity to FF7R produced a timeline with contradictory endings for Zack Fair. It's true that he did die originally by the hands of SOLDIER infantrymen, however due to the intervention of the whispers eliminating multiple soldiers to keep him alive, he could take Cloud's place to defeat Sephiroth, had Cloud and co. Lost to the Arbiter of Fate. (Hence the line, "Wait, was that all of them?)

Zack was like Wedge, kept alive to ensure the stability of the original timeline, only to be discarded when no longer needed for the exact same reason.

However, because Cloud and co. defeated the Arbiter of Fate, they disabled the planet, Gaia's ability to control fate or destiny. In other words, the future and every living being on the planet can no longer be manipulated by the planet, leaving everything after Midgar to be an "unknown journey".

However, because the Singularity or the whispers were never subject to the laws of time and space, they could interfere at any point in the timeline.

The singularity is rippling throughout the timeline, meaning the field of whispers aren't actually just surrounding Midgar, they are surrounding that specific area of land throughout the entire timeline from beginning to end. That's why we and Zack were able to see it during the replay of his confrontation. And why he was hit by the singularity as well.

Zack is alive because at the exact same time the planet chose to change Zack's fate, the party killed the Arbiter of Fate, so the planet could no longer "course correct" by taking out Zack.

Zack is alive from the beginning of FF7R to right now in the story.

There's a year between Zack's death and the Bombing Mission. There's a lot of possible scenarios as to what unfolded between Cloud, Zack and Tifa(station) within that year, but for now I'll focus on the ending.

SPOILERS (AGAIN)

The whispers and Zack are all still factors within the original story of FF7R. Zack is alive, while they are guiding Cloud and the party while course correcting everything surrounding Cloud that goes out of order.

Zack's not supposed to be alive because of the impact his death/disappearance had on Cloud and Aerith. If Cloud ever met Zack, the effect that would have on Cloud and the rest of the game would be insane to try and course correct.

When Zack arrives at the Church he opens the doors to find people sad and distraught, but not severely injured. The flowers are messed up a little and Aerith is gone or quite possibly just wasn't there.

I think, right before Zack arrived at the Church, the whispers ran rampant within the church, messing it up and taking Aerith far away from it. In REMAKE, Aerith doesn't know of Zack's fate and even asks Cloud about it. She has not seen him since before the Nibleheim incident.

To keep the original timeline on track, the whispers accomodated for Cloud and the party, but in this case. Zack is a "virus" of sorts that doesn't belong, but somehow is. Zack and Cloud are both meant to be the "hero: who stops Sephiroth, but Cloud and co. are the main characters, so they take precedent.

The whispers took Aerith away from the church because they couldn't have her reunite with Zack. That never happened,so it still can't happen.