#fate's meta

[fateandloveentwined]

wuxia, xianxia, and cultivation differences meta

translations: wuxia 武俠, xianxia 仙俠, and cultivation 修真/修仙 (xīuzhēn/xīuxiān)

think i've seen posts on this eons ago, and i'm pretty sure there are tons of these online, but since this has been written up already let's just have another one.

wuxia 武俠

wuxia and xianxia sound similar, but basically for wuxia it is about the pugilistic world (江湖 jiānghú). It is relatively more down-to-earth, and people practice martial arts ("kungfu") in their current life -- they do not do it to become xians (仙) and gods (神) however.

Like Thousand Autumns and Faraway Wanderers/Word of Honor, it has more historical background and ties to the current court and kingdoms, because people are living in the moment and concern themselves with worldly issues.

Martial arts may seem unrealistic, but in view of chinese fantasy it would be considered "real". It consists of fighting moves and internal energy, which they call qi or nèigōng (內功), and at times you see people flying around, climbing hills and jumping across rooftops which is qīnggōng (輕功).

xianxia 仙俠

A level up would be xianxia, where characters in the story cultivate to become xians (and gods, like in the heaven official's blessing). They don't really care about earthly issues here now, because their ambitions lie beyond the current world, and cultivation, getting stronger, and an immortal life are majorly all their goals.

You may not always see them working towards that purpose, such as in mdzs they are considered a lower-xianxia society (低魔), meaning people don't go through all the steps of cultivation and only stay at the stage before the "golden core" stage.

In xianxia, characters still learn basic fighting moves aka. martial arts, but to direct the internal energy they use línglì (灵力), zhēnqì (真气), and fǎlì (法力), all xianxia terms you commonly see. "neigong" is practically nonexistent in this genre. That's why people building up their "neigong" instead of "lingli" are likely never going to be able to cultivate.

cultivation 修真/修仙

A subgenre in the xianxia category would be cultivation. Characters actively go through the stages of cultivation, and likely for the MC, because they are the main character, they successfully become a xian and exit the world at the end of the novel.

There are many stages of cultivation, usually defined at the beginning of the novel in the synopsis, and a typical example of the different levels would be this:

练气，筑基，金丹，元婴，化神，炼虚，合体，大乘，渡劫

And with a cursory search, an English translation would be something like this, albeit not with all the cultivation ranks identified.

Qi condensation (练气), Foundation establishment (筑基), Core Formation (金丹), Nascent Soul (元婴), and the names after that vary too greatly with translation and fandom so I'll jump straight to Immortal Ascension

extra info: getting into the philosophy of it all

It'd be interesting to note that the word "xiá" (俠) permeates all these genres. This is something akin to the concept of "hero", but not at all also, and I'd love to speak more on this but this post has already gone way longer than I hoped it would be, so perhaps another day.

Regardless, it is interesting to note that wuxia has a greater emphasis on "xia" than xianxia. (some joke that cultivation doesn't have the word "xia" in it, and much of that is because characters have foregone heroism and focused on gaining powers and working towards ascension instead). As a result, wuxia is more confucianism-oriented, though not without its taoism and buddhism influences.

xianxia, on the other hand, is mainly derived from "dào" (道), from taoism, which is another lengthy concept if I ever get to it.

And some may have heard of the "farming" genre, 种田 (zhòngtián). This has to do with golden fingers (mary sues) in imperialistic china, earning a wealth of money, and all that. It has nothing to do with cultivation, alike they sound in english.

that's it for now, hmu if you wish to ask/discuss!

(and apologies for the pinyin translations, hope it's understandable still! formally writing pinyin they are supposed to be two separate words not one.)

[fateandloveentwined]

sorry for spamming op😭 but javert musical brick differences

*iirc for everything

javert Kills fantine interrupting her last moment with valjean (about cosette) in the book. she dies first in valjean's hand in the musical, then after her dead still on the bed javert appears

(not related to javert, but colouring valjean's perception, in the book valjean gets arrested after trial, he Escapes from the holding cell, he gets arrested Again, after serving he escapes Again and is declared dead.) Javert later thinks he found valjean again but is hesitant to apprehend due to hatred for officers in case valjean is an upstanding old man. Probably accentuated by this second arrest valjean is Deadly Fearful of rearrests and has a hundred backup plans to escape.

unlike stars in the musical where javert believes he is abiding by his religion through the law and everything is black and white, book! javert serves the law and his distorted sense of justice. It is only until his Seine suicide scene he starts to discover faith because of Valjean's generosity, and at that newfound discovery of conscience he throws himself into the river (ironically suicide does not align with catholicism. I suspect Hugo didn't even intend it to be redemption, simply a means to the end of the antagonist in which the antagonist can put up with it no more, and takes his life in defeat.)

Okay to give credit to book Javert where it is "due", he writes a note to the police listing covert ways the justice system could be bettered before walking back to the Seine. iirc it gets ridiculed by the force.

I feel like I understand people's blorbofication of Javert because I get why someone would really cling onto a complex (male) antagonist with a traumatic past whose entire life is a lie and who kills himself when he reaches that final moment of realization. It is absolutely tragic, and it is easy and natural to cling onto that, we've all been there. But you need to understand that two things are in motion here: the first one is Javert's individual tragedy, and the second one is the broader system he personifies. He's a symbol. His primary function in the narrative is to personify the hateful, bigoted, cruel, inhumane legal system that intervenes after the fact and crushes all those that society has already put down. He, the incarnation of that bourgeois legal system, delivers the final blow. He finishes off what society started, and he does it with joy. When we say that he killed Fantine, it's not even about Javert the individual per se. It's about the entire system he represents. That system killed Fantine and Javert is its flesh and bones. Fantine was a poor girl that was exploited and let down by society in every single way and when she was herself a victim of actual physical violence, the Law, personified by Javert, instead of protecting her treated her like an animal, dehumanized her, humiliated her. The Law was scandalized that a woman like her dared attack the bourgeoisie. The Law was horrified that such a disgusting creature got medical care because she should just drop dead on her street. The Law rejoiced in tearing down her sole protector. The Law prevented her from getting her child back from the con artists that have been stealing her for years because the Law doesn't care about the crimes committed against marginalized people. That's not its function. Its function is to use its discretionary authority in order to dehumanize and punish people that ended up on the wrong side of the street.

So when you come at me with nonsense that Javert "didn't tEchNIcALLy kill Fatnine", "he was just rude", "he was just bitchy", "he just stole her final happy moments", respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. Javert absolutely killed Fantine. He's not the only one who did but he eagerly and enthusiastically precipitated her execution, and that is the entire point Hugo is trying to make. Your arguments against it are nothing but a mere technicality that stems from the fact that the individual's actions technically do not qualify as manslaughter. It's as if we literally had an individual at court and we were thinking of whether or not to condemn him for manslaughter. It's not about that. It's not about your blorbo and his sadness. Your blorbo has a whole other function in the narrative. You have completely missed the mark of the entire book and you have let your personal emotional attachment for a character prevail over Hugo's main argument about the structural punitive violence that literally kills people. Javert being the product and the embodiment of an entire system that exceeds his individuality does not mean that, as a police officer, he's not responsible for his actions or their consequences. On the contrary, he's precisely entirely responsible for the structural violence committed against Fantine, that's what "embodiment" actually means, that's what we mean when we say that he personifies that system. Absolving Javert of his crimes goes directly against the themes of the book, because while systems operate above individuals by definition, they need those individuals to function. The system needs Javerts. Javerts are everywhere around us, yes even today and it is important to hold them accountable for their crimes. I can't believe I have to explain this tbh.

[anyfire]

we should all kill ourselves idk

[pocketgalaxies]

The silver color of the thread begins to fill with more golden light. (requested by @overnighttosunflowers)

[infinitelystrangemachinex]

Jayce and the fallacy of the butterfly effect in Arcane's narrative

If Jayce's symbol is the butterfly, then my theory is that we're going into a full "butterfly effect" narrative in Act 2. Either we'll watch it happen, or we'll only see Jayce come out the other side of it changed by the experience, knowing - or more importantly, THINKING he knows - what to do to change the future. Literally, to "defend tomorrow."

tl;dr: Jayce will encounter the butterfly effect in season 2. Viktor and Mel both foreshadowed this in season 1. I think Jayce will fixate on Viktor and will believe that stopping or changing Viktor either in the past or the present - most likely the present - will mean he can save the future. I believe this will lead to an even worse tragedy and may have the same effect as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ekko's approach to changing the future by sticking closer to the present - considering only tiny increments of time to alter more immediate future outcomes - will be the superior approach. I also think that Jayce attempting to change the future will create the conditions that push Viktor to become the Machine Herald.

One of the most common reactions even the casual viewer had to Arcane season 1 was this: "If [character] had just done this one small thing a little differently, [tragic event] wouldn't have happened!"

Arcane has been called a Greek tragedy for the main reason that because of how well built up the characters' personalities and reasonings are, there's no other way season 1 could have gone. There was no stopping the multiple tragedies that occurred, because with one event leading to another, the chain of seemingly inevitable events goes too far back to identify what one singular event caused everything, what one character made what one decision to put our characters on the terrible paths they walked.

Arcane is about to investigate this idea in its own narrative, and I think that Jayce will be the character to stumble into the flawed idea that you can change one event, or stop one character, and change the future for the better. This is because Jayce struggles with a few very interesting character flaws, one of them being that he believes himself to be the main character, and it is therefore his responsibility to intervene, be a hero, and fix things.

Viktor and Mel both foreshadow Jayce's future encounter with the butterfly effect.

Recall that Viktor said: "There is always a choice."

Jayce sees choices in black and white, believes that he has no other options but to go along with what he's persuaded and pushed into, and acts too boldly with too much power multiple times.

Recall that Mel said: "We can't change what fate has in store for us, but we don't have to face it alone."

Jayce tries to solve big problems on his own, and though he delegates to Enforcers and the like, Jayce relies on his reasoning and his alone to make important decisions if he doesn't simply become persuaded - usually through strong emotions like fear - by other characters. In addition, since Mel is specifically talking about Viktor's plight here, it's worth mentioning that while Jayce did say that he would help Viktor in acts 2 and 3 of season 1, Jayce does wind up leaving Viktor to face his fate alone. When Jayce tries to change that fate in s2 ep1, ep2 shows that only tragedy can come of this as well.

Viktor and Mel's statements here are not contradictory. Viktor makes the point that you can always make a choice. In context, he's literally referring to the classic "secret third option," because given a choice between aggression and passivity, war and surrender, Viktor chooses to defuse the bomb instead. Mel, interestingly, seems to believe that destiny is fixed in a broad sense, and she operates as a politician and diplomat and investor who navigates that line of destiny in the most optimal way possible. In reality, in context, she is referring to the fact that Viktor can't change the way he was born and so he has no way to change his fate and therefore must face it, which is true - she's only missing the information that Viktor actually does have the means to change his illness and his body. Her wisdom still applies however, because he'll have to accept the hand that fate deals him after he makes that choice. Will he face it alone, or not?

There is always a choice, there's even secret third options, because having a fate doesn't mean that you are doomed to make only one possible series of choices. What it does mean is that each choice comes with a hand that fate deals you. It is impossible to know what all of these branching choices and consequences are in advance, and it is just as impossible in hindsight - the branches are too complex and the end outcomes are all equally meaningful, just different. If Arcane season 2 is to be a tragedy, it may show us that each possible outcome is still tragic if you fall for the fallacy of the butterfly effect.

Jayce is counseled by some of the wisest, cleverest characters with the deepest life experiences in Arcane, but he hardly ever takes that counsel to heart. If he does, he still acts on that counsel in flawed ways that have unintended consequences. This will come to a head in season 2.

Viktor and Jayce both have a butterfly following them around in season 1. The butterfly effect refers to one small seemingly insignificant event changing the course of history, and changing that event therefore changes history. Viktor bled over the railing of a Hexgate in season 1:

And Heimerdinger sees what we can only assume is Viktor's blood contaminating (?) the Hexgate in s2 ep3:

This might be the seemingly unimportant "inciting incident" that Jayce (and Heimerdinger and Ekko) settle on as something that should be avoided or erased by changing the past (if they time-travel with Ekko, for example).

I doubt that, if this is what this crew chooses to fixate on, it will be the only event that is considered as something to change. But let's take this and run with it for the sake of discussion.

As silly as it sounds, how do you stop Viktor from allowing his blood to come into contact with the arcane? Stop Viktor's involvement with the Academy entirely? Don't invent Hextech at all? But what if someone else invents Hextech besides Jayce? What if future tragedy befalls Piltover because it didn't invent Hextech?

The possibilities and what-ifs could branch on forever. But because Jayce is who he is, and because his tragedy with Viktor is still raw and recent and frightening, I think Jayce's butterfly effect experience will have to do with Viktor.

My personal prediction is that the timeskip between s2 ep3 and ep4 will be Jayce experiencing a timeline where Viktor, taken over by the Hexcore, brings about an apocalyptic event similar to what Heimerdinger experienced in his past. Either Jayce and co. can't go into the past to change the present, or Heimerdinger and/or Ekko advise strongly against it to avoid a paradox. This will lead to them re-entering the canon Arcane timeline before this apocalypse, but still after the timeskip. Jayce, believing that destroying Viktor and his cult will save the future, and believing that resurrecting Viktor was Jayce's mistake to fix, attacks him. But the consequences don't unfold the way he hopes, because trying to change fate once the cards have already been dealt has led to tragedy before.

The butterfly is a symbol of something other than just the butterfly effect - change, evolution, and rebirth. If the butterfly symbolizes the butterfly effect for Jayce, then I think it has a different meaning for Viktor - the change and rebirth meaning.

I've always found it very interesting that we see a similar-looking butterfly on Progress Day... but made of metal.

Every time Viktor's situation changes, he adapts and evolves. If Jayce attacks him, if his cult is destroyed, if the Hexcore is causing Viktor to decay, if all of these things happen at once - he'll just evolve again, and I think the Machine Herald is the next step. And the Machine Herald will be a triumph for Viktor, but Jayce will believe that he's created something even worse. The resulting feud will be a personal nightmare for both of them.

I think this still allows Viktor to use his own agency to choose to become the Machine Herald (the MH will probably be the "secret third option" that saves Viktor, or there will be a secret third option that ends the feud) while still allowing Jayce to be offended and horrified at whatever the Machine Herald represents or is trying to do in the undercity. Introducing the element of time travel allows Arcane to explore the meta concept of tragedy and fate that season 1 was built on while showing that you can't "solve" a tragedy, because there are other terrible possibilities lurking behind alternate choices. Especially if what you're trying to change is singular people or events and not systems of power.

This is why Ekko's approach with his Z-drive will be superior to Jayce's sweeping attempt at changing the future. Ekko's goal has always been societal change. He creates his own punk society in the undercity, more progressive and successful than anything Vander or Silco ever created, and a better bastion of safety, hope, and progress than what Heimerdinger founded in Piltover. Trying to change systems by going back in time is most likely futile. But taking what Ekko has already built in the Firelights, curing his tree, and fighting for the Firelights' survival bit by bit by optimizing the present with the Z-drive shows that:

It's more worth it to focus on becoming wise (Ekko's mask is an owl) and making choices you won't regret

It's best if you don't face your fate alone (act as a collective and take care of each other)

Consider every option, not just the obvious black and white choices

Maintain and fix what you've already built instead of abandoning it once things get difficult

Adapt as needed if the choices you made lead to dark consequences, and once again, stick together and take care of each other when the bad times do come

That's my Act 2 but, ultimately, my season 2 prediction based on the butterfly symbolism we've already seen. Ekko's involvement is what will give the series the at least partial happy ending that the creators have referred to. I personally don't think that the Viktor/Jayce feud will end quite so well, but maybe, they will still survive.

[linddzz]

Does mage Viktor's reality-hopping and 'only you can show me this' line imply that dozens if not hundreds of other Jayces have done what our Jayce did and end up there on that slope hearing the same thing from him? Did the Viktor that succeeded and lost everything, lost his own Jayce, keep getting to meet new Jayces one by one, allowing himself a small modicum of wistful joy in getting to see Jayce living and breathing again if only for a short time before he sends them back? talk to me here

Not only is it implied, we for sure see at least 8 (if my count is right) times Viktor has saved Jayce as a child, including the current one. You see them flash through and each time, he gave Jayce a different runestone

(gifs by @hextecht)

Since his phrasing was "all timelines, in all possibilities" it's pretty safe speculation that Viktor has been at this for way more than 8 rounds. We don't know if he's tried messing with other points of the timeline or if any other Jayces got as far as the our Jayce did when he reached the center of Wizard Viktor's hellscape (and I made such a distressed noise when the clouds parted and I realized the only beautiful place left, the center of the storm, the oasis, is where Jayce got assimilated).

The general consensus is that this is most likely the first time it worked, because Ekko used the rune Jayce had been given (the "acceleration rune" as Ekko calls it in S2E7) to make the time travel Z-drive that he cranks up to "break reality" levels before chucking it at Viktor's head and knocking that dork off enough for Jayce's "power of love" gamble to actually get through to him.

(I also have the opinion that Wizard Viktor is not going to stop here. He's got nothing but fields of dreamless solitude for him, this IS his project and he's probably going to keep trying to refine the process across timelines until some kinda multiverse cops show up like "dude. Fucking quit it!")

And OH BOY can I sure as hell talk about the way Viktor looks at Jayce over the top of the Jayce he destroyed!!!!

(gif by @glassrunner)

Look at him. LOOK AT HIM. His expression is already wistful and pained as he turns, but you can see him exhale with the breath knocked out of him. his eyelids actually flutter. He softens, he's struck. He looks like he's barely able to keep himself from crying in that moment where he not only looks at Jayce, but lets himself be seen by Jayce in return.

And which is more heartbreaking? That this is the first time Jayce got this far, the first time Viktor had to finally properly look at him after so many tries?

Or has this played out over and over for him? Has he looked over like this time and time again, and every time it takes his breath away? Subjecting himself to this repeatedly, and every. single. time. he's hit with the most classic doomed romance line

(Im holding myself BACK from rambling yet again about how Actually Deranged it is for Wizard Viktor to be doing this but @avelera and I talk about him being a fucked up little guy so much that I need to consider just having a wizard Viktor tag lmaooo but for more Wizard Viktor rambling enjoy

Wizard Viktor doesn't care about saving the world, he's just making sure Jayce and himself are intertwined

How many times has Wizard Viktor had to watch this himbo yeet himself into Pretty Hippy Viktor's cult?

Me giggling and kicking my feet in the air over Wizard Viktor being a control freak egomaniac about Jayce )

[cha-faile]

Since I'm seeing angry show-onlies claiming queerbaiting and bad writing, I'm putting on my truthsayer's hat for a moment

Let's Talk About Siuan: This Is Better Than The Books' Endgame For Siuan

Siuan still died in the books. She died fighting for the future of the Tower after fighting for nothing but the Light and the Tower for her entire life as an Aes Sedai. She and Moiraine were always a tragedy; they were always a doomed romance.

But Robert Jordan was a deeply flawed person and writer, and he wrote them as having broken up at the end of New Spring, the prequel, set the year Rand was born. You see, in RJ's world women dated each other as youthful, college flings and then went on to marry men, or were man-hating lesbians. In the books, Siuan died in a shoe-horned in romance with a man that most of the book readers absolutely fucking hated as a plotline. She died having never reunited with Moiraine, having never been openly together as Aes Sedai, dating a man who spanked her when she had a bad attitude. I am not kidding.

Siuan's story is of tragedy, of strength, of a woman who gave everything to create a better future for humanity. That hasn't changed between the books and show. I'm personally glad that the show gave us a beautiful, loving, queer relationship that, yes, was doomed. But it was always, always doomed.

I see the shape the showrunners are crafting for the future plot. I already see and believe that Siuan's death will pay off, the way the S01 song of Manetheren paid off in 03x07's Battle of the Two Rivers. The Wheel weaves on, and now you show-onlies have joined us book readers where we have been for years: dreaming of the someday when Siuan and Moiraine are reunited in a better life.

[jomeimei421]

Even if TWSA had finished without the world ending, KDJ would have been okay

[hawkgirlz]

shirou’s real last name is never revealed, similar to how shiki didn’t know his own last name for a while in tsukihime. both of them were forced to adopt the name of their adoptive parents due to circumstances beyond their control—shirou takes on the emiya name to inherit kiritsugu’s dream of being a hero, while shiki is given the tohno name after the real shiki tohno’s death.

they’re both essentially actors, using these inherited identities as empty shells to push themselves forward. the emiya name is a curse, just like the tohno name. archer and SHIKI!roa both blame shirou and shiki for ruining their lives, for being frauds who stole something that wasn’t originally theirs (kiritsugou's ideals & the tohno identity).

but there’s a key difference—archer discards his name entirely, becoming heroic spirit EMIYA, while SHIKI’s identity is outright stolen when he is forced into the tohno role. and yet, the accusations of being fakes never stop.

shirou also barely remembers anything from before the fire. similar to how shiki doesn't remember anything before the murder because the tohno father erased his memories.

"but he left you that curse." (fate stay/night) / "...the tohno family is cursed." (tsukihime: a piece of blue glass moon)

[fateandloveentwined]

wuxia and confucianism

Hey. Thought I'd answer the wuxia-confucian question very briefly. I did suggest wuxia being closely knitted to confucianism, but I do understand the other perspective of wuxia being anti-confucian. Quick answer only because I've got little time right now -- might add on to it later!!

confucianism

First the central themes of confucianism:

常 (cháng): Virtues of compassion and courtesy. 仁 (rén)、义 (yì)、礼 (lǐ)、智 (zhì)、信 (xìn)、忠 (zhōng)、孝 (xiào)、悌 (tì) (there are more). These in order in crude translation mean compassion, righteousness, courtesy, wisdom, integrity, loyalty, filial piety, and respect to one's older siblings. These are the main ideas Confucius, the founder of Confucianism, wished to spread through his philosophy.

纲 (gāng): Order. This is about the relationships between people, the filial piety of a child to their parents, the relationship between significant others, between friends and teachers, and expanding outwards in the sphere of influence in our circle of life, the patriotism and loyalty of a liege to his lord.

Understand that Confucius came up with these ideas in a time of war. He lived his life traversing different kingdoms and establishing his prominence by getting emperors to trust him as a consultant and employ his school of ideas. As such, these beliefs are very much centred around creating harmony and order in society, and of course entails the respect of commoners and lieges to their lords (because why else would kings employ his beliefs over other schools of philosophy if not so?).

wuxia

Moving on to the wuxia genre, the 侠 (xiá) in wuxia emphasises righteousness. xia, as people, are itinerants and rebels in the fictitious pugilistic society who tire of the power of the aristocracy and seek to use their own, often unlawful ways, to help others through 锄强扶弱 (chú qiáng fú ruò) -- helping the needy and going against the strong (the morals are debatable but that's me trying to sum up wuxia in 5 minutes off the top of my head rip).

conclusions

So I guess that's enough information for you to form your own conclusions, and here's what I think, at the very least.

Against Confucianism -- Subverting the power pyramid. Many of the heroes/xia's in wuxia are lawless rebels. They aren't good, upstanding citizens of the society. Hell, xia was first popularised from 游侠列传 (yóu xiá liè zhuàn) in the Han dynasty records, talking about how a "xia" went against the officials and helped the commoners in the name of righteousness. This goes against the confucian beliefs of respecting your lord and serving the kingdom.* That's why I can understand why some would consider wuxia going against confucianism.

Align with Confucianism -- Righteousness. Ultimately, however, wuxia is about righteousness and nobility and honour, defined by society and commoners and not by royal blood. These values of etiquette, decorum, and nobility were long ingrained in the hearts of all these chinese characters, from when the courtesy and etiquette rules were defined in the Zhou dynasty, and afterwards, from the Han dynasty on, when emperors heavily employed Confucian beliefs in education and throughout society because it helps in rebuilding a harmonious society.

Confucianism is about compassion and righteousness, the staples permeating and defining chinese culture in the last two thousand years, and it is these values that serve as the central impetus of the xia and wuxia genres. People are born into these values; as such they fight against the injustice they see, and thus engenders the lost xia's of every dynasty.

*And well, even Confucius wasn't that dead set on fealty to lords. Confucian highly venerated loyalty, but when the court is corrupt, they acknowledge insurgence over the mindless following of an emperor. This is a story for another day, one I would have to back up with more quotes and citations, but I hope this answered your questions, or even better, let you form some conclusions of your own :)

Confucian philosophy is only one aspect that has correlations/influences over the "xia" genre, there are many other interesting things to say about Taoism and Buddhism as well (e.g. Jin Yong's wuxia classics have quite a bit of Buddhist values in the characters owing to author preferences), it's definitely worth looking up on these things if you're interested!

initially reblogged under the original meta post on wuxia, xianxia, and cultivation differences, but i realised it was too long and would bury the reply, so please don't mind me creating a new post for this again.

feel free to ask and discuss!!

[zeravmeta]

actually the other fantastic part of goghies interlude is that it's revealed that all of her puns actually come from the 5% van gogh part and it gets filtered through the 95% clytie as a bocchi-esque nervous wreck delivery

listen to me girl im the dead painter in your head you have to make these puns or we'll explode forever

[19burstraat]

hmmm I know we can surmise that kaz & jordie were the iphigenia of the series, in that, whether it's fair or not, they had to be sacrificed for the benefit of everyone else. jordie had to die and kaz had to suffer it and live with it, because if kaz had lain down and died on the barge, it would have had a crazy knock-on effect. inej likely would never have escaped the menagerie, or matthias from hellgate, jesper would probably have fallen foul of debtors or gangs some way or another (he gets at least one beating from enforcers), nina would have been caught up w the dime lions trying to get matthias out of hellgate, and there's even some more tangential ones, like kuwei probably dying at the ice court and marya being stuck at saint hilde.... but I wonder what would have happened to wylan.

kaz had him under dregs protection, so he never suffered the way he did ("kaz is your luck, merchling."); no beatings, etc. without that... well, it's tempting to think that wylan would have just been killed some way or another. and yeah, maybe, but miggson and prior couldn't get him, could they? wylan has that scary glimmer of the biting-animal, kaz-style survivalist in him, and he had a goal; amass enough money to get the hell out of ketterdam and start anew. but how far would wylan have gone to get that money? van eck's letters pushed him into the arms of dregs munitions building. without the perpetual intervention of kaz-- protection, constant jobs even when there were better people for it, good pay-- how quickly would wylan have turned into someone more like kaz? he has a core of decency, but he gets the privilege of keeping that, because kaz helps him to. alone, would he have surrendered it, or been forced to surrender it, just for a chance to survive? I don't think he would have ever willingly given up. it's not an accident that kaz and wylan's first days in ketterdam are so closely paralleled, or that they have a set of similar skills/traits; it's explicitly said that wylan would also be able to count cards and control decks like kaz can, if he wanted to. and after he finds out about his mother, wylan's comforted by the idea of retribution for van eck, that kaz could destroy his father's life. they're a little bit too similar. but kaz is there to take the moral fall, for the most part; all wylan has to do is help him. but without kaz... well. that's another story, isn't it?

[burr-ell]

reminded again about pike being so desperate to bring back percy, guilt-ridden over not being there, that she tried a divine intervention, which if it had succeeded would have tanked the ritual because percy would not have wanted to be brought back that way. and instead when it failed she offered a song in celestial—the same one that the two of them, a faithless man and the chosen of sarenrae, sang to resurrect a little boy who'd been killed in westruun. impulsive grand gestures versus something thoughtful and meaningful. i need to lie down

[winterprince601]

i often think about the irony of the fact that ned probably thought the wall would be one of the safest and most anonymous places for jon to go. he would be far away from anyone who might recognise him or uncover his secret identity in an order that specifies everyone who enters into it let go of all familial ties, treating your past and blood as a theoretically blank slate...

only for the long night to come knocking, and it turns out not only is jon VERY unsafe (as is everyone) but he is in a position where his blood becomes potentially very important. ned sent jon to the wall to hide the fact that he was a prince, only for that to be the very place in need of a promised prince.

[scentedtheoristperfection]

Lady Avalon's True Name is Manaka Sayjou.

(Want to make clear that I'm only talking about the FGO Servant, not the version in Prototype) (Only FGO JP Spoilers are a Valentine, and Arcade- not the collab, but actual one that was already out by LB7)

Lady Avalon is a servant introduced in Grand Order during the summer 7 Arctic Summer World Event. She is part of the pretender class. A class known for having a "True Name" that is revealed at a later point in the story. Lady Avalon is an exception*

Elisa is also an exception but the reason she's a pretender is explained in the story- the fusion with Shi Jin and appears to be powerless. Lady Avalon's explanation is more complicated.

We are given two explanations for why she is one and both of them are deliberately uh maybe? Lady Avalon is very insistent on it being because she's not a human- but her bond profile makes it sound like it's about the question:

Why does she desperately flee the King Arthur who claims to be from another world?" It's a question that Arthur himself doesn't seem to understand the answer to. (Second image is FGO Arcade Fan Translation)

So let's zoom out for a minute. Lady Avalon has some unique and odd attributes that are solely her.

She is the first and only character in the entire game to exclusively exist as a Summer Servant.

She is a Pretender despite being a Caster in Arcade, and no explanation is given · Nov 6, 2024 Oberon cannot see Merlin. He has a passive skill that only effects Merlin and lowers his buff success rate. Lady Avalon is not affected by said passive skill. What's more, Lady Avalon directly comments on noticing Oberon in her valentine! · Nov 6, 2024 If she is just Proto Merlin, there is a lot of questions. Why does she flee from Arthur? Why does she refuse to admit she's Merlin? Why can she see Oberon? Why is it being treated like she's hiding some great secret.

Why does she call Arthur her beloved?

We have also met the actual Merlin Prototype and both their attitude and word choice do not seem to line up with Lady Avalon. In the Arthur Trial Quest they talk to Arthur and do not sound at all like Lady Avalon aside from the occasional giggle. And they are not shy.

Ibuki-douji believes they know some great secret about Lady Avalon. Our entire list of characters with dialogue for her is Gareth (Same banner), Arthur, Nero Draco, Ibuki and… David?

Ibuki also has a tendency to know things she shouldn't so…

Lady Avalon and Merlin describe the Grail very differently. Manaka in Prototype talks about how the original purpose of the grail is to collect wishes and summon a Beast. But how are they fulfilling their purpose in Chaldea then? Like unless Ritsuka is going to be a beast...

Romulus in Arthur's interlude refers to Beast VI- the one Arthur is hunting as the Beast who will come beyond the stars borders. Then Lady Avalon is addressed a Beast of the Stars by Nero Draco in the Official Translation of Lilim Harlot…

[whenmemorydies]

Even if The Bear crashes and burns...

Carmy's already told us that he and Syd are going to keep going, together:

Their first business.

He wants to start their first business at The (then) Beef, in Chicago. Which presumably leaves the door open to a second…

Carmy may have babytrapped Syd at the start of season 3 with the partnership agreement, but he began laying the bait an entire season earlier.

These writers man…