#epic: the musical meta

[thekingofthenameless]

I see a lot of people not liking the jet pack and yeah, it is goofy, but I liked it because it is lol

Sometimes you’ve just gotta have fun like Jorge is doing!

[fluffypotatey]

Why "Full Speed Ahead" is the Best Expositional Song

as some of you may have noticed, i am very in love with Epic: the Musical, and i need y'all to know just how great it is. for one, it's the Odyssey in musical form (2 of my favorite things). for another, the lyrics, the musicality, the choices the writer/composer Jorge rivera-Herrans makes are so clever and witty and ingenious and UGH! so good *chef's kiss*

so i could go on for hours (probably days) explaining why each song is beautifully made.

"The Horse & the Infant" is a wonderful opener, sets up the background context since this story's a sequel to the Iliad (basically, a "previously on Homer's epics").

"Just a Man" JFC WHAT A SONG! IT IS SO GOOD! SO HAUNTING T^T a wonderful set up for Odysseus' character and his arc in the story.

"Warrior of the Mind" sets up the relationship between Odysseus and Athena and what their conflict will be.

but i am not here to go on for days about the musical. i am here to go on for (constrained) hours about one song and why, in my opinion, it is one of the best expositional songs i've ever heard.

OK SO BASICALLY

Trojan War is over. They've won. They can go home! the music itself sounds triumphant and ready for adventure. Odysseus even says how marvelous it is that even when the war was cruel, he never lost a single man.

BUT, then we get the whole point of why their on the ship. "Make it back alive to [their] homeland," and it is sung in a more serious tone. the music also shifts and cuts off to really let you know how important this is. Immediately, you know 2 things: Odysseus never lost a man, their great challenge now is to get to Ithaca.

AND THEN, Odysseus sings how the "problem's not the distance," as in the issue won't be sailing, but really what they might meet on the way. And it is sung by the men who interrupt Odysseus (foreshadowing mayhaps :omg: ) to let the audience know that the real obstacle is "what lies inbetween" Troy and Ithaca.

AND THAT'S JUST THE FIRST PART!!!! Already, the audience are given 3 facts: Odysseus and his men cannot wait to go home, Odysseus was successful in not losing a soldier in Troy, trouble lies ahead. Due to well placed tone shifts and musical chords that go from triumphant to foreboding, we get clued in that there's a strong possibility not everyone will make back alive.

Now on to the characters (yeah, we ain't done :3 we are far from done). See, this song does not just set up what kind of story we will be getting, it also introduces you to the characters that will be sailing with Odysseus on this journey. However, these characters are so much more than companions to our dear friend Ody, but we'll touch on that later.

EURYLOCHUS: how he's introduced is just *chefskiss* because he repeats Odysseus's melody, but his lyrics talk about the new issues they are facing (no food). There is loyalty and deference as he speaks to Odysseus (and you feel that because he sings Odysseus's melody), but already, we see those cracks for him to doubt and question his captain. He's unsure where they'd find the food, he's worried about the size of their men since it's a lot of people to look after. And though Odysseus answers him by essentially telling him to observe where the "birds fly" off to, Eurylochus will continue to be doubtful about everything (their food supply, who to trust, etc.)

POLITES: [Baby boy] is introduced with a fucking key change into a major key. How his lyrics are sung so hopeful (note that he's the one to shift the tone and melody of the song, demonstrating just how important he is to Odysseus/the story), and how he's the one to find the island. He's the one who assumes that people might reside there and they could talk to them. Already, we learn how optimistic he is as well as Odysseus's relationship with him is more casual than it was to Eurylochus since he answers back to Polites with his name in the fondest melody ever T^T

AND FINALLY, why are these characters more than just companions to Odysseus? It is because they're a literal personification of Odysseus's internal war with mercy and ruthlessness. The OG heart vs. mind!

I will explain.

Eurylochus is Odysseus's remnant of the Trojan War since what they would do while at Troy to get food and survive was raid villages, be brutal, fight fire with fire. The mindset of the war has not left him, nor has it left Odysseus because Eurylochus is that part of Odysseus that has not shook off the old habit of ruthlessness. It does not help that the last act Odysseus made in Troy was kill Hector's infant child soooooooo....

Polites is the more merciful side of Odysseus. The side that wishes to approach things (with Open Arms) more diplomatically and peacefully rather than with force. We even see this side pop out during "The Horse and the Infant" when he is trying to find other options that would spare Astyanax from the fate the gods are pushing on both him and the child.

By the end of the Trojan War, Odysseus is tired of it. This war was 10 years long. He wishes to go home to his tiny island and kingdom and reunite with his family. He is done with war. However, despite leaving troy and desiring to escape the horrors he's seen, Odysseus will find himself not only in conflict with the monsters that lie between him and Ithaca, but the conflict of his wartorn-self and his merciful one.

-

and that, my friends, is why i love this song so much. everything about it is just so carefully chosen in the best way, and i love it.

go listen to Epic: the Musical

[i-dreamed-i-had-a-son]

Odysseus harmonizes with Scylla at the end of Syclla's song just like Athena had once harmonized with him, because he AGREES with her that they're the same because HE IS A MONSTER--but all he can bring himself to say is "I--" because he doesn't want to be the man-made monster but he must be!!!

[punkfistfights]

screams screams screams MEDIA ILLITERACY WILL BE THE DEATH OF ME

if i see ONE MORE PERSON call eurylochus a hypocrite for being mad at odysseus for sacrificing those men to scylla, imma lose it!!

eurylochus DIDNT KNOW opening the bag would lead them to a murderous poseidon - and poseidon that was only so murderous because ODYSSEUS was a hubristic idiot who doxxed himself. do y’all think if eurylochus hadn’t opened the bag, poseidon just would never have attacked them???

and as for abandoning the men to circe, eurylochus had no idea that it would be possible to convince her to turn the men back - for all he knew, this was just going to lead his and odysseus’s deaths.

eurylochus is not the central character so we don’t get to see his thoughts but subtextually it’s pretty clear that he is also going through a character arc: while odysseus is learning to be ruthless, eurylochus is learning to never just give up, to trust that odysseus is going to get them all home.

eurylochus is angry with odysseus because odysseus purposefully sacrificed those men. odysseus did not warn them, did not try to come up with a way to defeat scylla, he just let six of their men be gruesomely killed.

and, finally, (and i personally thought this was clear) eurylochus killed the cow because he was STARVING and CLEARLY SUICIDAL. “how much longer must i suffer now? how much longer must i push through doubt? how much longer must i go about my life like this, when people die like this?” this is CLEARLY eurylochus at his last straw, he can’t take it anymore. he knows they’ll die and he (and seemingly the rest of the crew, minus odysseus) has accepted this.

it’s not until odysseus tries to make a plan to save them that he’s shocked out of his suicidal mindset and begins to regret the choice he and the crew made.

[haley-harrison]

Why Hermes wasn't in God Games:

a) Zeus doesn't take him seriously

and/or

b) Zeus knows Hermes is already on Ody's side so Athena wouldn't even have to convince him

[wolfnight2012]

I've seen several people talk about how it's Ares who asks if Athena's dead & how he sounds legitimately concerned/afraid

But i haven't seen anyone point out how excited Ares is to debate with Athena???

Like, Apollo & Hephaestus are both pretty mellow in their agreements. Aphrodite does not want to play. Hera sounds like she could use the entertainment/distraction

But Ares?

Ares is PUMPED!

He's the "brute" sibling & Athena's the "intellectual" one and he's being asked to engage with her on her level (and she'll be on the defense for this game) and he's sooooo fucking excited

Idk, i just find it cute.

Even their physical fight doesn't seem too mean spirited to me, like, these two are the physical embodiment of war & battle, Of Course they would resort to sparring both verbally & physically

(And on that note, i don't think they're going all out/actually trying to hurt each other during their spar, which makes it doubly painful how small Ares' voice is when he asks if she's dead.

Because while the two Literal Embodiments of War were able to disagree/argue/fight without hurting each other

Their own father did not hold back.)

[quotidian-oblivion]

Six Hundred Strike Jetpack

That was a fucking awesome ass scene. The visuals and the music all went together so well and so cool!!

But, I wanted to see what other different approach could have been taken.

Just by listening to the song, closing my eyes and trying to picture how things could have looked, I feel like at the start, Ody is drowning. He's drowning and his eyes are getting so so heavy then... he sees the bag.

He sees the bag and, in desperation as he's losing oxygen, opens it. He opens it and the wind bursts, propelling him up as he's clutching the bag for dear life. And as he's going up and up (his still in the water, going up as Aelous's instruments go on), his facial expressions change. He goes from hazy, to active, to desperation, to fear, to pure unbridled anger. He will see his son. He will see his wife. And no fucking thing is going to stop him.

He doesn't look back, but he feels something. A hand. Several of them. All of them holding him, propelling him up with Aeolus's bag. The crew, Polites, Eurylochus, his mother, everyone he has lost. All of them supporting him, seeing how determined and how close to home he was when none of them were. They were here in spirit, but also in an ethereal, wind-like form.

So instead of jetpack, when I listen to the song, I'm picturing the 600 men taking some vague air-formed versions of their bodies.

And in the 0:22 mark when Aeolus's part shifts to the "six hundred men" chant, I can clearly picture Odysseus bursting from the water surrounded by the 600 men in wind-forms, holding him up and surrounding him, facing off against Poseidon.

That's when Odysseus says his piece and pulls out his weapon and attacks.

So Poseidon's storm - yes - is there, but right now, it's in the form of 600 men. And during the 0:52 mark when you hear that- that- (I'm not a music student, bear with me) water-crystal-ice-wind sound (nailed it), I can picture them rushing forward to attack Poseidon.

As Odysseus sings "For every comrade..." etc, I can picture the wind-forms attacking Poseidon ruthlessly, holding him down, hitting him, overwhelming him with wind and air in his lungs so he can't breathe, giving Odysseus the time to attack Poseidon, render him unmovable and weak.

And when Odysseus sings "Six hundred strike!", I can picture all the wind forms and Odysseus attacking him all at once, dropping Poseidon on the rocks.

And, once the instrumental calms down and the wind disperses, the wind forms leave Odysseus and transform back into the storm, blocking the way home. And this is because Poseidon caught control of it again. (I'd like to believe that the other wind gods including Aeolus and Hermes got convinced through Athena's fight to help Odysseus and that's what shifted the winds into the 600 men backing Odysseus up. But since they're in Poseidon's territory, he could snag the control back again). And the reason Poseidon's rendered immobile is because he's struggling to keep hold of the storm away from the other gods' hands.

So when Odysseus stabs him over and over, he can't do much cuz he's trying to keep control of the storm. So when he says "Alright!" I'd like to imagine him giving up that control and the other gods getting it back and moving the storm away. So then Poseidon has the power to heal himself since he's not struggling to keep hold of the storm.

Aaaaaaaaaand that's my take! Hope you like the vision too. I'm just a sentimental fella and I'd prefer everything coming together rather than a single... um, jetpack 😅

[metashades]

when i first listened to 600 strike (on spotify not the livestream btw) i thought when ody opened the windbag and the '600 men' chant thing started up it was like the ghosts of ody's crew coming back to beat the living shit out of poseidon (think of the ghost fleet from the end of moana.)

it'd be fitting, poseidon, god of waves, being wailed on by all the men he drowned. the fallen crew finally having their own revenge alongside odysseus.

[mandlien]

Theory on how Odysseus defeated Poseidon

So! The Vengeance Saga is a banger. The only thing that bothered me about this Saga is how easy Poseidon was defeated. And I know I'm not the only one who lost a bit of their suspension of disbelief in this moment. That's one of the big gods! They're fighting above his domain, inside his storm!

It's not like Diomedes fighting Aphrodite and Ares (especially considering that he had Athena's help with the later). Still, we know Heracles wounded both Hera and Hades before, so that's a precedent!

However, the jet pack six hundred strike kept bothering me, even as i rationalized it. Some people say maybe Ares helped him out, as a favor to Athena, using Dark Quick-Thought on him (I didn't hear his sound on the music, though, so I don't favor this theory). Others say Hermes slipped him a bit of moly (Jorge would have shown us if he had done that). Here's another theory for you all.

The prophet's profecy said:

I see you on the brink of death I see you draw your final breath I see a man who gets to make it home alive But it's no longer you

This is, of course, a metaphorical death. In the beginning, I thought this last breath referred to the moment he drowns in the Thunder Saga, but now I'm firmly convinced that it's that moment Poseidon hits him with his god move. Why? Because we see the spirits of his men.

In "Love in Paradise", we see Odysseus hearing the voices of the people he lost for the first time (outside the underworld, that is). I believe that in this moment it's a sign of his grief, and that he is essentially hallucinating, mainly because we never see any of his men. I believe differently for the moment in "Get in the Water".

I believe that in "Get in the Water", he is very close to dying. And this closeness to death allows the people he loved to reach him. We actually see the people he lost, them reaching out to him. His mother, Polites and Eurylochus, it's their songs. But the soldiers? They're Waiting. For what? His death? No, I believe it's for vengeance. And right after that, we see his eyes begin to glow red, the sign of his monstrosity.

In Six Hundred Strike, there is the voice of the crew singing "Six Hundred". Odysseus can't create his own choir. Poseidon wouldn't call up the voices of Ody's crew to emphasize his defeat. So where are their voices coming from?

TL;DR: The Six Hundred Strike is only possible because Ody is carrying (literally) the strength, and grief, and desire for vengeance of his 600 men.

Does this theory make me fully satisfied? No. But it's my headcanon.

[gece-misin-nesin]

lowkey think that if jorge really wanted to sell us on the "odysseus is a monster thing" he should have had odysseus continue to stab poseidon even after he begged. bc like. Looking at odysseus now? he's less a monster and more like a morally grey protagonist. All of his questionable actions have pretty good explanations behind them. if you want to tell me he's a MONSTER, you need him to do something really fucking vile. without good justification. killing the baby? (also. he fought in a war. i reckon plenty of babies died indirectly as a result of his actions somehow) zeus literally told him he and his family would die otherwise. blinding the cyclops? pretty self-explanatory. sacrificing the men to scylla? bad, but has an understandable reason behind it and you can theoretically justify it. choosing the crew to die? saving his own life+you could argue they are the ones at fault for eating the cows anyway. torturing poseidon? there's literally no other way poseidon would let him go at that point AND he immediately stops after he begs.

point is, if you're going to tell me a character is a monster then at least make them do something that cannot be defended. something that CANNOT be justified at all. continuing to stab poseidon after being begged would have done that. but who knows, maybe the suitors being killed will be shown as something like that? still unlikely though considering they plot to kill telemachus and rape penelope.

[thekingofthenameless]

Odysseus screaming for Athena is killing me rn

[i-dreamed-i-had-a-son]

Ok I know we mostly assume "then his light went dark" refers to Odysseus becoming the monster but WHAT IF

What if, although Athena wasn't actively watching over him, she could still tell he was alive--could still see his light--until he washes up onto Calypso's island that no one can find, and his light goes out, because he's hidden? And she isn't sure where he is or if he's even alive ("maybe he'd be fine" sounds like she thinks something's happened to him)?

And then Telemachus tells her, "I know it's light you'll find."

He wants to "bring the world some light." And without knowing it, he convinces Athena to find the light she's been missing--his father.

[little-cereal-draws]

Smth smth smth Epic has a theme abt parents and kids

Odysseus’ goal is to get back to his wife and son

Odysseus kills Hector’s son even tho he reminds him of Telemachus

Poseidon attacks Odysseus to avenge his son

Circe turns the men into pigs to protect her nymphs who she thinks of as daughters

Odysseus’ mom waited for him until he died

I don’t really have a point that I’m making or know how they’re all connected but it keeps coming up

[haley-harrison]

Epic the musical memes - Part 4

[bloodyshadow1]

look, the Odyssey is a tragic story, it's one of the oldest stories we have. Yes, Odysseus eventually makes it home at the end, but he's the only one to off all the men from Ithica that followed him to Troy. Regardless of him getting home, he lost everything to do so, the favor of Athena, his men, his mind, and in the end even though he gets home he still lost 10/12 years away from his wife and son, on top of the additional 10 years he spent fighting in Troy, and he will never get them back. Epic is a musical adaption of that story.

There aren't any good guys or bad guys really. Sure there are plenty of antagonists, I wouldn't call Polyphemus, Poseidon, and Zeus good guys by any means, but they're reacting to what happened just as everyone else. Over reacting in my opinion, I think in most people's opinion, but still Epic and the Odyssey is about people who make the wrong decisions and have to live with the consequences.

You can't really blame any character, because almost everyone is in the wrong at some point in the story. I see people condemn Eurylochus, for the mutiny and for being the one to open up the bag, but it's far more complicated than that. No, he shouldn't have opened the bag, but the story is about how people keep making mistakes, and things that seemed small turn out to be the worst thing they could have possibly done. If you're going to blame him for the rest of the fleet being smashed by Poseidon, you could also blame Odysseus for not finishing off Polyphemus, or even worse doxxing himself to the cyclops. You could blame Odie for not swallowing his pride and actually giving Poseidon the actual apology he demanded while holding the lives of hundreds of his men in his hands, instead of trying to use his silver tongue to deny responsibility. and you can keep going in circles until you're horse but the fact is there's enough blame to share in a tragedy like Epic/the Odyssey.

[wolfnight2012]

So, there's one thing perplexing me about "Dangerous"

Why does Hermes say "We went through so much to get this" in regards to the windbag?

1) "We went through so much to get this"

Who's "we"? Who helped Hermes & why?

Athena: Did she & Hermes go around scouting the route to Ithaca/collecting what Odysseus would need? If so, did Hermes approach Odysseus alone because Athena still fears she'll be turned away/fears Odysseus still wants nothing to do with her?

Some/all of the God Games contestants: Is Athena still in the Olympian infirmary? Did some/most of the gods she convinced during "God Games" go help Hermes because if it's THAT important to her, then they're going to see the mission through while she's incapacitated?

Aeolus: Is Poseidon's rage/storm SO strong that Aeolus had difficulty containing it?

2) "We went through so much to get this"

Why was it so hard to get this second windbag? Is Aeolus not a neutral, playful trickster god who just hands out aid for the hell of it?

Does Aeolus have a strict "1 divine intervention per customer" policy & had to be convinced to give Odysseus help again?

Is Aeolus not a neutral trickster but rather a sadistic god who only gave Odysseus the windbag knowing he would fail & had to be coerced to give actual help?

Zeus 1.0: Did Zeus want to limit Odysseus' help to getting him off the island & they had God Games 2: Electric Boogaloo to convince him to lock away the storm?

Zeus 2.0: Did they have to obtain the windbag in secret because Zeus refused to allow Odysseus any aid beyond getting him off Calypso's island?

As mentioned above: Poseidon storm too strong? Did Aeolus find it difficult to trap the winds from the lord of storms' personal, hate-fueled storm?

Neither of these questions need to be answered to enjoy the saga, but I've been turning that line rotisserie-chicken style in my head for the past few days!