#either talk about racism or don't

[fromtheseventhhell]

IDK if it's exactly what you wanted but your recent post about Mirri came "in time" for what I've seen.

Here are some screeshots of tags from this post

To me it seems like they try to critique the writing but as always, tend to blame the character. Plus, they sprinkle some lies (that Dany forced Mirri to save Drogo, that she refuses to engage with history), they project onto GRRM (that he wants to critique violent intervetionism with her), they ignore his statement about the "white saviour" accusations (which fair, you may not find them satisfying but still, take his intentions into account), they take away acountability of what the slavers did (bc THEY turned Slaver's Bay into a "hole of death" and was that long before Dany arrived) and not saying why "she allowed slavery to continue", which is a convenient way to frame her as immoral because after the masters of Yunkai attacked Astapor, and because "gently born" people, anticipating the struggle in Meereen, ask her to let them sell themselves back into slavery :

"My queen?" Daario stepped forward. "The riverside is full of Meereenese, begging leave to be allowed to sell themselves to this Qartheen. They are thicker than the flies."

Dany was shocked. "They want to be slaves?"

"The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor."

"I see." Perhaps it was not so shocking, if these tales of Astapor were true. Dany thought a moment. "Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. Or woman." She raised a hand. "But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife." (ASOS, Daenerys VI)

I mean, she does this because she wants to respect their choice and she makes sure no one is forced to be enslaved. I don't think she should have allowed it but I understand why. It was not out of mallice. (here is a meta about how she is not a slaver X , X )

Plus the tendency to blame Daenerys fans for pointing out how the situation with Mirri was grey, that Mirri indeed killed Rhaego, but they can defend Mirri and acuse us, Dany stans, of being racists and whatnot.

Ironically my post was about conversations on Twitter (I know) where people were demonizing Dany and I found out this post was actually what started it all, so my post was unintentionally a response to this one. I'm gonna talk a little bit about this conversation and the overall conversations about racism in this fandom but I don't mean it as a direct reply to OP's post. The only thing I have to say specific to their post is that it does stand out to me that they acknowledge the issue with Mirri's writing, which is that it's part of a trend with how characters of color are written, but they fail to actually talk about said characters. Their main point isn't even about how Mirri is handled, it's on the subject of Dany's whiteness.

The thing about discussing racism in asoiaf is that it's a more complex and nuanced conversation than a majority of people are willing to have. Often times it just gets devolved into justifications for disliking a specific character and this was the same attitude people had towards the show. If there's racism in the writing, then that's a factor that affects how the entire series is written, it doesn't just reflect poorly on a single character. People definitely act like that's the case though.

On the subject of Mirri and her treatment, it's rare that people discuss her character without using her as a means of bashing Dany. The screenshots you provided highlight this. We're supposed to believe that Mirri's actions towards Dany are justified and that Dany's actions towards Mirri are racist solely on the basis that Mirri is a WOC, but it's not that simple (Also note that it's always "Mirri was right to do what she did" but they never talk about what specifically she did, which was force the abortion of a 14-year-old bridal slave. Somehow saying exactly what happened doesn't make her as sympathetic). What makes the writing racist isn't the situation itself, it's the idea of characters of color being disposable in service of white characters' arcs. But this situation is often talked about as an isolated event, in a vacuum. The logic applied just doesn't work. If race is such an important factor, why was Mirri right to kill a child of color over a prophecy she was ultimately wrong about? There are plenty of racist connotations in the "brute" narrative surrounding POC, specifically men of color, but people eagerly justify his death because of the hypothetical harm he could've caused. They also completely ignore that the prophecy wasn't about him, so the justification is that a child of color can be murdered if people assume they'll cause harm. There were also the others in Drogo's Khalasar that Dany couldn't help because of her situation. Eroeh suffered a horrible fate before her ultimate death, but Dany would've conceivably been able to help her if she hadn't been incapacitated. So does the fact that Mirri's actions harmed other POC, and not just a white woman, factor in at all? Or are we not supposed to care about them because they are, however positively, associated with Dany?

That also leads to the question of what exactly would be the right way of handling this situation. Dany's whiteness is the biggest criticism but her being a woc would come with its own racist connotations. Dany's life of poverty and being sold as a slave would've had other implications when contrasted to the other primarily white, high-born female characters. So what would've been a better way of handling the Dothraki and other people of color in this series? Whether Dany is white or not, the problem isn't solved. Somehow that's never a conversation being had, despite the number of people who supposedly care so much. It also seems as though Dany's suffering, and only Dany's suffering, is considered justifiable through her whiteness. If Dany had been the one to die instead, it still would've been a child bridal slave being killed. How is that the "better" option for people supposedly concerned with racism and misogyny? With almost any other female character their suffering is never justified regardless of who is causing it.

There is just...a different set of standards people have for Dany than they have for any other character. Someone brought up the point that Robb's part in the war caused incredible violence to the smallfolk, yet he is considered one of the noblest characters in the series. We see firsthand the devastation the Northerners are responsible for through Arya's POV, and many women and children specifically are harmed. We hear about countless women being raped and killed from the fallout of Robb's actions but somehow that's not Robb's responsibility. On top of that, there are plenty of smallfolk who have actively anti-North mindsets. Robb, who isn't trying to bring about systemic change or actively focused on fighting for the smallfolk, isn't responsible for the damage he causes them. Dany, who is trying to overthrow a violent system built on subjugating people, is the most evil character in the series because she interacts with characters of color more than anyone else. But then...people seem uninterested in discussing privileges and harm caused when it isn't related to bashing Dany. It's damn near taboo to refer to certain characters as classist, even when that's how they're written.

If you want to discuss racism in the series and fandom though, let's do it! Let's talk about the depiction of the Dothraki vs. The (white) Wildings and the difference in nuance and empathy they get, let's talk about how the current generation of Starks benefit from colonization and the eradication of the children of the forest (who are very much indigenous-coded) and how that's not framed as a bad thing, let's talk about women of color who are already being enslaved before Dany was sold to the Dothraki, let's talk about Alayaya + the senseless violence she faces and how her pain is used to give Tyrion angst, let's talk about the various background women of color portrayed as sex workers and how that could play into the jezebel trope, let's talk about lack of prominent characters of color outside of Dany's pov, let's talk about how D&D wrote a former Black slave dying in chains, how they portrayed the slaves exclusively as people of color despite slavery not being based on race in the books, let's talk about how they played into the Dothraki's racist writing and portrayed Dany's people as "scary foreign invaders" that the North looked down on, let's talk about how everyone justified the Northerners (and Sansa specifically) being scared even though Dany came to help, let's talk about how people in the fandom were laughing at Missandei's death and saying she deserved to die for being "rude" to a white woman, let's talk about fandom's habit of portraying Jon and Arya (considered the uglier, feral starks) as dark-skinned in comparison to their "white" siblings, let's talk about how the hotd writers made characters Black and then diminished their roles and importance, let's talk about how routinely characters of color are ignored and turned into props by fandom, LET'S TALK ABOUT IT! But no, the only capacity people are interested in talking about racism is when they can use it to bash Dany.

TL;DR/summation: There's nothing wrong with having good-faith conversations about racism in the series or disliking a character because of it. The issue is that that's rarely what happens. Instead of having constructive conversations about race, the pain of characters of color gets turned into props and given no nuance outside of that.

[bumblingbabooshka]

B'Elanna, Neelix, Tuvok and Chakotay needed to star in an episode where they just talked about their different beliefs and approaches to spirituality/religion. Paired off and all together. I need to gain more insight. I need characterization and I need it to be messy.

[jesncin]

Ugh

I was considering quitting MAWS altogether once I got to binge watching season 2 (haven't done that yet, still too busy). This show makes me sad and I just don't want to give it any more attention that it doesn't deserve. But with this announcement that season 3 is going to have Conner Superboy? One of my niche fixations who barely gets any adaptations, especially lately? I'm honestly so mad- because this feels calculated.

The only reason I was interested in season 2 was because of Kara (which I know they've done dirty from what little I've heard and seen) but now you're introducing yet another Superfam character at such breakneck speed? It's like this show knows that its current incarnation of Superman, Lois, and Jimmy (let alone those forgettable rogues) can't stand on their own or retain your attention. So they're bringing another Superfam member in as clickbait for the next season. Oh and he's ambiguously brown too (yes I know Lex is white in this show but there's obvious plausible explanations for this if you're familiar with Conner Superboy lore)?? Great. I cared so much for Asian Lois and obviously POC!Conner means so much to me. But I already know this show will not deliver that kind of representation for me. Conner's history is so riddled in exotification and racism with themes of adultification, and I know this show doesn't have the brains to talk about anything substantial or political about him. DC would sooner forget about that history instead of fixing or revitalizing it.

I've wanted to quit MAWS because the reactions the show gives me feels so antithetical to why I enjoy Superman as a whole. It made me feel embarrassed about hoping for an Asian Lois reimagining. It makes me wish I wasn't a Superman fan. It makes me wish I didn't care about these characters so I can more easily quit like my casual Superman fan friends.

[ctl-yuejie]

the projected results for germany are fucking dismal

[bijoumikhawal]

other trans people don't dislike c*ntrapoints for trying to meet cis people where they're at, we dislike her for platforming Buck Angel and because the woman has a weird hate boner for nonbinary people, as well as evidently not thinking much of trans people that aren't "normal" in general

[whatisthisnonsense]

"mutants are poc analogy" "mutants are queer analogy" Listen, X-Men and as such mutants as a whole should really be disability representation, and I mean representation and not analougous to it they just occassionally also get to blast ice while having furniture not built for them, struggles with keeping their mind in the present, and constantly having people casually discuss sterilizing or euthanizing them and being considered either dangerous or simply incapable of understanding when they get mad about this. But nobody is ready for this conversation.

[giantkillerjack]

Favorite part about Death Note is that Light gets the Note and IMMEDIATELY becomes a serial killer fascist with a god complex.

No build-up, no Fall From Grace, no slow corruption of a good boy gradually becoming a monster. Just-- SPEED RUN STRATS. And I love that for him.

Tbh, I think there are a lot of folks (especially boys) from my high school days who would have immediately become monsters if given the power of life and death over every person around them.

It's kind of like how when people have apparently casual ableist beliefs, and you push them to elaborate on that just a little bit, they'll often end up openly saying stuff like "well, some people are just too disabled to be worth the resources it takes to support them." - Which is... eugenics. It's just eugenics, justified by the myth of scarcity. Now these folks almost certainly won't call it eugenics, or even think of it that way. But that doesn't make it NOT a core belief of the Nazis.

In a similar way, Light seems like a nice and well-adjusted boy with strong beliefs. No harm in that.

But to paraphrase Lindsay Ellis in her analysis of the Game of Thrones ending, "Power doesn't necessarily corrupt. Power reveals." [I think she was quoting someone else when she said this. It was someone who wrote a biography on LBJ. Whatever. Lindsay said it and she's smart as hell and I recommend her videos.]

And 15 minutes into the Death Note musical, I'm already thinking about how so many beliefs "casually" held by well-adjusted, nice people immediately reveal their monstrousness when talked through to their natural conclusion.

And I wonder how many of those people, given the power of life and death over everyone around them - the power to take their ideas to their natural conclusions - would also immediately reveal how their lack of self-reflection has laid the groundwork for them to become monsters.

[rosefulmadness]

hello writers of the castlevania fandom

can you please stop making Isaac eat pork and/or drink alcohol? also, why does he never pray?

I've only seen one fic where it was done like it should be, and they made him muslim there. he's a north african sufi.

If you don't wanna learn about a characters culture/religion (especially when it's a central part of the character), then don't write them, period.

[gloriousmonsters]

just saw a screenshot of a quote tweet where the original tweet was someone excitedly pointing out a detail in Taylor Swift's new music video and the quote tweet was someone going 'Taylor Swift is QAnon for white women'. and goddamn you know the woman was right. why DO you gotta be so mean

[raayllum]

like here’s the thing, right. when a work like TDP has a variety of races in it, you’re bound to have some fave characters who are white and some who are not. in my past fandoms my fave characters were a dark skinned black man, a dark skinned black woman, and a disabled, mentally ill asian man. if i didn’t have that background in writing subversive fic centred on their experiences, and seeing how their fandoms treated them with varying degrees of racism, stereotypes, and ableism - yeah, i may question my fave being the one (1) white girl amid a main trio of 2/3 boys of colour.

however

representation wise the odds are stacked that you will have more ‘white faves’ than non white faves. certain archetypes also tend to be based more in race than others

however

if you only ever love white characters, and hate the characters of colour that are canonically important or involved in their lives (harrow with viren; terry and callum with claudia; callum and ezran for rayla, etc) i will and am absolutely side eyeing you so hard & sincerely hope you do some major self reflection

[cowpokezuko]

Absolutely detest how central lovecraft is to cosmic horror because he was like a huge racist twerp and it absolutely invades his writings in extremely obvious ways. Cosmic horror is so cool and fun but like every time someone talks about it they inevitably bring up lovecraft and I have to think about that fucking guy again.

That's not to say his work is like irredeemably or that you shouldn't read them, he's dead and I'm not your mom, but like I just hatte him so bad.

[btxtyuri]

i need to save aerith and tifa from the ff7 fandom you're all insane

[fragglez]

i hate when my Stepmom goes "stop talking" when I tell my sister about war and colonialism like I don't care if it's "scary" and "violent" it happened in the real world and she deserves to know about that stuff

[kodigobacktosleep]

Being mixed sucks sometimes

[pynkhues]

https://www.tumblr.com/pynkhues/763036611208527872/its-funny-that-you-talk-abt-the-interracial?source=share

Yeah what? You've been really clear that NEITHER is the wife, because they're both cis men. And I agree that people can get a little weirdly hung up on one of them being the woman, somehow, which feels different from exploring "feminine" qualities either or both might have.

Thank you, and yeah. It does feel like a pretty selective and bad faith reading of what I've written, and I kinda suspect from how they've written what they have that they might be an anon who's sent me a few asks now? Which leaves me a little bemused that anyone might follow this blog that specifically for haterism given I'm pretty under the radar in this fandom, haha.

[bijoumikhawal]

People discussing Israel's racist policies and Israel's policy of fucking over non Rabbinic communities and fucking up the transmission of diaspora cultures (such as the teaching of languages) is not the time to go "we don't need gentiles in our intracommunity politics". Foundational to Israel is "maintaining a Jewish majority". These communities are attacked in lathe part because they are seen as not being as Jewish as White, Ashkie, Western European Jews (with respect to how Eastern European Jews are also often mistreated), or their Judaism is otherwise seen as deficient. The maintenance of this majority is also why Palestinians generally, cannot really get an Israeli citizenship, even if they wanted to, and sometimes even if they can prove they are of Jewish descent. "Who is a Jew and what is a Jewish culture" is a constructed boundary: for the past 70 odd years it has been a boundary used for violence. If you want anti-zionists to have politics informed by the needs of Jews, they must be party to these discussions.