#discussions of racism and mlm fetishism

[54bpm]

Thoughts on Maintaining Old Characters.

Don't feel like you gotta read this, I know I don't have any long term OC fans who have kept track of what I'm doing with my guys. It's more just stuff that's been rattling in my head and I feel like would be nice to jot down so people who do decide to trawl through my old art tags can see why my characters have changed in the ways they have.

I've been making characters since I was 11, which as of this post, means that some of my earliest characters are 13 years old. I still even have some of them. This blog has stuff dating back to when I was 13 (I joined tumblr a week or so after my birthday on a now deleted blog, before that I was on deviantArt and roleplaying forums almost exclusively)

I was exposed to the idea of self-inserts and mary sues (and that they were bad and nobody liked them) extremely early on, so I almost immediately swung in the opposite direction, people pleaser that I was. This first generation of characters would set up three types that I would end up remaking over and over with different coats of paint.

Prickly girls

Just so many prickly tsundere girls. Often short. Often bullies to the boys they liked. They were girlbosses who could win any fight but they also were bullied by the normies for being so weird and being outsiders. Pretty but still only liked by the one nervous guy they had chosen. The archetypal anti-sue, just a gaggle of Ebonys.

2. Tragic girls

These girls were usually innocent and silly and fun, but also haunted and sad. They were traumatized in very childishly "and then their whole family died in front of them :,,( " ways. They were never allowed to address the trauma, and everyone around them always had to baby them. Yeah, I was making those types LOL. Nooo I refuse to make progress on my healing bc then I won't have any character left!!!

3. Soft boys

I was still pretty married to the idea that I had to like boys, so the boys I made were all ones I thought I would like. This led to just a fleet of androgynous boys who wept and blushed often. I also rolled with a crowd of older tween girls who were deep in the Yaoi haze, and while I found they way they talked about the couples uncomfortable and objectionable even then, I still did my share in pumping out generic ukes to go with their bog standard semes.

I made characters in these three frameworks for like, a few years. Even after the main forum I had camped on died and I started making characters with school friends. I wasn't really pushed to change anything until a while into using tumblr.

I don't know if anyone else remembers this period of time, I had to have been like 14-15, but there was this attitude shift all the sudden that boiled down to how if you didn't have a diverse set of characters, you were a bad person.

Now I'm going to say immediately that I do think its good to have a diverse set of OCs! It's good to learn about people from other cultures and backgrounds and to put yourself in their shoes! It's also good to learn about all the ways humans can look and how charming and beautiful and different we can be!

The issue with the way this was pushed way back in pre-dashcon tumblr was that it wasn't about thoughtful diversity and exploring others lived experiences. It was about making sure you looked like you weren't racist to the other 14 year old white girls who still hadn't unpacked what watching South Park had done to their brains and were actively sending death threats to Lucy Liu for being on a Sherlock Holmes show that wasn't the one with the white men who might kiss any day now guys. When you see people mocking the Ultimate SJW Tumblr Character (you know what I'm talking about, the just caricature level mocking of disabled queer people) it's from this era of posts.

I saw this and I saw people dumping buckets of anon hate and bullying on just anyone who caught the mobs fancy and I very ungracefully slapped new ethnicities on a chunk of my characters. And it took me an embarrassingly long time to look at some of the choices I made and to go "Yikes!" Almost no one was an offensive stereotype or anything, but I definitely had picked characters that lined up with tropes without realizing it. (Important note, I did have some characters that were disrespectful to Roma culture, and an atrocious belly dancer character. I've completely gotten rid of them and I do recognize now how they were disrespectful and played into racist stereotypes.)

And this is still something I'm working on monitoring and fixing in my characters. I'm not gonna lie and say I've become the ultimate anti-racist. I'm white, I've only lived in majority white areas, specifically Oregon which has an extensively anti-black history as well as a lot of issues with orientalism, and I grew up on early 2000s media and all the baggage that came with that.

Speaking of 2000s baggage and weird yaoi culture. I am sorry mlm for the atrocities of boys I have made. It was that classic case of "I'm supposed to like boys so I'm going to make boys who are basically girls and then pair them with each other so I never actually have to deal with the anxiety of them actually being attracted to me." I only had like two characters I would say felt like they could genuinely be gay men. It was only after I was like a year deep into accepting that I was genuinely a lesbian that I looked at my gaggle of boys and went "oh shit, these are all lesbians, these are lesbian dynamics." Which like, yes I don't feel great that I used mlm pairs for my own character development. I know it's not uncommon, especially if a lot of your exposure to the idea of being queer was through tumblr, but it's still not great.

All this to say: I love my characters and I want to be more thoughtful with them. Most of my characters are 5+ years old and they all just need an overhaul. I'm taking most of them back to their prompts and rebuilding from there, I'm also turning a majority of them into lesbians. I want to explore all the fun wlw dynamics I never got to play with growing up. And girls are just more fun to design for me! Sorry!

As I put out new refs you may notice some characters look varying levels of different, some have been replaced with new characters taking over their roles, and some are gone completely. You are always welcome to reach out to ask me about any choices I've made and any concerns you have about the things I've made, past or present. And if you take anything from this it's that you should always be vigilant about how unconscious biases can slip into your creative works.

Thanks for getting to the end of this long ass post, it's one I've been thinking about for a while but had to take some time to put to paper. It's important to me to keep up my old art posts to see my growth as an artist and a person, but I also don't want to act like I still agree with every character choice I've made in the last 13 years.

I hope you can support me as I continue to grow as a person!

[aphverse-confessions]

Just in response to the jesson essay(?) anon. I agree with pretty much everything said, but find it weird to be grouping in Jess being an irl shipper/“mlm fetishizer” with, everything else. To report on the queerbaiting makes sense, but I feel like Jessica thinking it’d be cool if two YouTubers kissed in 2016 is a non-issue compared to the abundance of racism, portrayal of gross age gaps and dynamics (einmau) in her content, her husband yelling at 11 year olds on twitter, the treatment of past workers, etc etc. What Jess does in her free time, such as shipping or enjoying male x male content is not of my concern when discussing the extensive list of questionable and wrong things that her and her team have done.

.

[phaeton-flier]

What on earth was that post about John Gaius memes going on about? "Folks, is it fandom racism to joke about the Fire Nation thinkingemoji.jpg"

So there was once this widespread way of talking about gay ships along the lines of "my sinful gay babies uWu" that was rather diminutive, you know, a lot of gay men not liking the framing that their sexuality was inherently sinful if hot. And while finding two guys hooking up to be hot, and maybe even more hot if it's forbidden/toxic, is OK, it can be upsetting to hear your sexuality discussed only in those terms by nominal allies.

The problem is that as soon as the discourse turned against this it immediately metastasized into "woah, you enjoy MLM content, while not yourself being MLM? you even dare to... be turned on by it? you are FETISHING THEM" because it's very easy to overapply something, especially if you already dislike the target for some other reasons.

Anyhow this is similar to the discourse you discuss.

[burnersideblogjustincase-ies]

MY TIME HAS COME. IVE BEEN HERE TOO LONG AND SEEN TOO MUCH. Most of the hate I see Jess and Jason get publicly is for bad writing choices, but. Uh. THINGS RUN MUCH DEEPER THAN THAT! Here's a big compilation, of both serious and less serious things, that people have gripes with Jess and Jason for.

Disclaimer: A lot of this stuff is sourced from twitter, which I do not use. I am a MCD fan and have been here since MCD Season 1, I also am not a Mystreet/modern content fan. There could be stuff/context I'm missing for some things. I'm trying to keep this post to stuff I can provide links/sources for, in order to prevent that.

Tw for discussions of homophobia, racism, abusive workplace, uncomfortable IRL age-gaps, fatphobia, and depictions of abuse and incest. This post is long, be warned.

Homophobia:

Jessica is a fetishist of gay/mlm relationships. I feel this is pretty visible through her actions as a whole, but in case you don't believe me, here's her tweeting about being a Septiplier fan.

(Ship between Jacksepticeye and Markiplier. Yes. She really tweeted this. https://twitter.com/_Aphmau_/status/748004225305677828)

And this.

And the video she did where she publicly supported the "ship" of her IRL employees/coworkers (Mithzan and YourPalRoss), which she then publicly reblogged a clip of to her tumblr here: https://www.tumblr.com/aphmau/142601660059/mithross-ahaha-thank-you-so-much-for-this

AND back when they did fanfic readings/reenactments on the channel, one of these videos was devoted to Septiplier.

(This video has since been privated, but you can see someone's... uh.... ""reaction video"" to it? Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jodpDmeqES0)

Yeah.

This fetishization does leak into the content Jessica creates. Jason himself has confirmed that the way Jess wrote Laurance and Garroth was intentionally written as queerbait.

The person he was replying to is no longer visible, but the tweets are still up here: (https://twitter.com/jasonbravura/status/802295131218984960)

Racism:

Yeah so remember how Jason said that they'd never have someone on the team make the skintones of characters to be lighter. Remember how he said that in those tweets above. Yeah well they did that they absolutely did that. They do it in the official poster merch, in the official music videos, thumbnails, and in the skins/ingame footage as well.

(Lots of the in-game whitewashing seems to be a side-effect of the shaders they are using, as they overexpose the footage and make everything lighter as a result. The difference in skintones is glaringly obvious, and definitely would've been tackled by the team by now if they cared about whitewashing as an issue.)

It took until Season 3 of MCD to have a single black character purposefully placed into the show. He had potential to be more than a side character, but the show was cancelled soon after his introduction. As far as I'm aware, Teony is still the only black character in all of Mystreet/Phoenix Drop High. She is a side character who is not included in the minigames or other modern content. Unless I'm misremembering, she doesn't appear in Mystreet in anything beyond Season 2.

Let's talk about Nana Ashida now. Or as she was known as up until late parts of Mystreet, "Kawaii-Chan." Good news! Jessica and crew realized that having an anime-obsessed neko-girl who works at a maid cafe and loves "shipping" and all things "Kawaii" was offensive, and changed her name as a result. Bad news! They confirmed this character to have Japanese heritage through changing her name, further enforcing every single stereotype she carried and more!

(Though it's not as if there was a very good out for this aside from acknowledging the stereotype, tearing out everything about her character, and rebuilding her from the ground up. Either you make your Japan stereotype Japanese, confirming she's a walking stereotype, or you make your Japan stereotype a white girl, and confirm that she the character is stereotyping Japanese people. Either way, they wrote an offensive stereotype and refuse to fix it, because the stereotype is intrinsically tied to her character, and all that is supposed to be appealing and likable about it.)

Fatphobia:

I don't even know what to say. Here is a roleplay video from 2018, where the sideplot is that Aphmau eats too many hamburgers, causing her to hiss at fruits and vegetables like a feral cat. She goes for a jog with aaron, where she fails miserably until being deceived that there is a... "wild hamburger" in the bushes. The video ends with her bursting into tears over turning down a cookie. Eating and food humor are common in this era of video from the Aphmau channel, and these topics are never handled well.

(https://youtu.be/PnOCMK1i-hQ)

Basically every character who is implied to like food (aside from Nana/Kawaii-Chan, because of course a Japanese stereotype Cutesy Icon™ can't be fat, because being fat is not appealing in the eyes of the writers) is implied to also be both unhealthy and overweight. Three out of Four of the trivia bullet-points for Betty (FCU character) are about her love of food, because she genuinely has no other memorable traits. If I have to tell you what is wrong with this, I can't help you.

(https://aphmau.fandom.com/wiki/Betty_(MyStreet))

Abusive Workplace Allegations:

Back while it was still known as BluJay, Catface Studios was reportedly not a good place to work. Here are some twitter testimonies from ex-employees, ranging from things such as PTSD, to possible legal threats for speaking out about working conditions/experiences. (Some of the text is very small, click through to read better.)

A lot of these tweets are, at this point, deleted. Especially the more negative/accusatory ones. Some of them can still be found online, search for them if you're curious.

(And context for people unaware, _Castr_ aka Castor is the same person as The Chicken Shaman in MCD. He used to work on/be a part of a lot of Jess' old content, and was a writer on various projects for her for a VERY long time. I believe he was involved in the writing of MCD since Season 1, but if anyone has a source on that so I know I'm not misremembering, feel free to let me know. His sudden release was VERY shocking to me personally, seeing as how long he's been a part of Jess and Jason's work.)

Jess and Jason have also pretty iconically had beef with Sebastian Todd, the voice of Laurance. This beef is why Laurance rarely appears in videos, and was written out of Mystreet. I personally don't really care for either of the involved parties, but here's what Mithzan has to say about Sebastian:

Child Labor (???):

I literally don't know how else to describe it. This tweet (and linked google doc) from 2015 is the source of this one:

(This tweet is still up and available at this link by the way: https://twitter.com/_Aphmau_/status/661051379234922497) The bit.ly link (http://bit.ly/1Q10LEA) leads to a google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yPd1dsY99sOwIl_fITmUryfH4s00zVgiSuwodfcNiK8/edit) describing what a body actor is and where to apply to work as one for Jess. In case you don't feel like clicking links, here's just the "terms and conditions" and all listed requirements:

Yep, that's right, kids as young as 13 were encouraged to apply for this! Or even 12, if your birthday was close enough to the application date. Though it mentions "promotion", there is no payment mentioned or listed anywhere on the document. Presumably promotion is referring to asking for more important jobs, such as writers or voice actors, though I don't know for certain. Despite the mention of "credit given to you as the body actor" I do not remember seeing body actors ever credited on Aphmau videos of this era. (If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but I checked a couple MCD S2 episodes that came out a couple months after this, and could only ever find VAs credited.)

I don't know how young anyone who applied or was accepted was, and I don't know what their working conditions were like. I personally doubt anyone accepted was paid for their time at all, though I have nothing to back that up.

(Also, I don't know if that email is still active. And don't plan on testing it. I'd encourage not sending anything, just in case.)

Aggression towards fans:

This is more a point towards Jason specifically, but multiple times he has spoken out very... I don't even know how to phrase it. Agitatedly? Blame-y? Against fans on twitter for seemingly minimal or nonissues.

These are some of my "favorites," and by favorites I mean "I cannot believe a grown man actually said these things to young fans on twitter, for the crime of... wanting to see more non-Aarmau ships with Aphmau ???"

(These tweets are ALSO still up: https://twitter.com/JasonBravura/status/866345911571562496)

I'm sorry, but "whoring Aphmau's character out" is an INSANE thing to say about your literal actual IRL wife.

(Also he went real jokercore this one time I still cannot believe this is real.)

This is less of a serious accusation in comparison to some of the others, but looking at it with the following in mind makes an interesting picture:

Jess and Jason's Relationship:

Hate that I have to make this a bullet point given how fetishistic and weird people online are about celebrities/internet personalities' IRL relationships, but unfortunately this is necessary. The summary is, Aphmau and Aaron's 4 year age gap (Freshman and Senior in highschool) displayed in Phoenix Drop High is based on Jessica and Jason's real life relationship. Here's a better post breaking this down: https://www.tumblr.com/dantes-gf/648264700307668992/jess-and-jason-a-disturbing-dating-history

As of making this post, I believe Jessica's IRL age is 33 and Jason's IRL age is 37. They met before Jessica was 18, seeing as she moved in with him when she turned 18, as stated by Jessica herself in her Draw My Life video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekOog6xKDMQ)

TLDR: Assuming the timeframe displayed in PDH is correct, their IRL ages suggest that Jessica was 14 and Jason was 18 when they started dating. This age gap is disturbing for obvious reasons.

Some fans have also found Jason controlling for things like this:

(I don't feel right commenting on this given the whole "This Is An IRL Relationship I Am Not A Part Of, And Thus Will Never Have As Much Insight Into As The People Who Are In It" thing, but here it is regardless. You can make your own judgements on it if you wish.)

Irresponsible Depictions of Abuse/Incest:

Ein is a character. He's certainly a character. If you don't know who he is, he appeared in Mystreet and Phoenix Drop High as a villain who wanted to romantically abuse and manipulate Aphmau. In some cases he succeeded. Towards the end of Mystreet Season 6, he was revealed to be Aphmau's sister. In contrast to his villainous persona in the main-story content, he appeared as friendly, teasing and even flirtatious in the mini-game and non-canon content. Many fans were upset to see him treated as a friendly member of the cast, instead of as the incestual abuser he is in canon.

Around mid-late 2018, many fans on tumblr were vocal about how they found Ein's story and character handled to be upsetting and uncomfortable. A voice actor for the channel (condescendingly) responded that depictions of bad things do not necessarily mean the writer is bad. This post was then reblogged by Aphmau's official tumblr account, without any commentary.(https://www.tumblr.com/aphmau/179882946599/hey-so)

Obviously writing about problematic things does not make you a bad person. You cannot have a story without conflict. What is concerning is writing about this content irresponsibly. Many fans around this time failed to understand that Ein should not be shipped romantically with Aphmau. This behavior was most alarmingly seen by (younger) fans who looked to the out-of-character minigame content of Ein for how he should be treated, and began shipping Aphmau and Ein without understanding the full force of their actions.

(Tumblr) Fans were then concerned about the responsibility involved in displaying this kind of content uncritically to younger audiences, especially since this time was when the mini-game videos became very clearly more aimed towards younger kids. This was Jessica's response, posted on tumblr: (https://www.tumblr.com/aphmau/179945128104/the-audience-of-my-channel)

It touches on the topic, but falsely identifies the main concern of fan backlash of mini-game and overall channel content becoming kid-friendly, instead of the real concern of irresponsibly exposing children to """friendly""" depictions of incest and abuse.

Making funny, silly content of abusers does not successfully condemn an abuser's actions. Making funny, silly content of an incestual relationship does not convey to the audience that the writer sees these actions as wrong. Without knowing that these text posts exist, the average fan would likely never even know they supposedly saw these things as an issue.

Not only has Catface never apologized for this, they later tried to retcon it out of existence:

This post sums it up pretty well. (https://www.tumblr.com/dantedeservedbetter/655931596641353728/oops-this-rant-was-longer-than-i-expected-but)

TLDR: Jessica/Catface has acknowledged that Ein was written to be Aphmau's sister multiple times, including a mini-game video in 2019 that directly referred to them as siblings in the title and thumbnail.

At some point after this comment was made, they changed the video title to be consistent with the "red herring" statement.

To spell it out, after defending their irresponsible portrayal of this abusive and incestual character for years, Catface quietly pretended like it was never an issue and erased all references to his sibling status, so that they did not have to keep trying to explain themselves or apologize.

If you need more proof, check out this tumblr post below where Jessica does not contest Ein's sibling status, which is directly mentioned and discussed in the ask prior! If it really was a red herring, then go on Jessica! Why not correct it here, when the sibling discussion is causing issues all the way back in 2018? That you yourself took credit for writing IN THIS POST! https://www.tumblr.com/aphmau/179877266199/i-think-jasons-a-really-good-guy-but-im-never

I think it's very clear why nothing about this was ever corrected earlier, and it's because they saw it as nothing needing correction. There is no red herring. Just a poorly-handled retcon.

Many characters are given this treatment in canon, where their poor writing was later friendly-ified or excused for little to no reason:

The treatment and attempted "redemption" of Derek, Aaron's abusive father in Phoenix Drop High/Mystreet, is another clear example of this poorly thought-out behavior.

As well as Travis and Katelyn's abusive relationship, which is initially handled seriously, then comically, then swept aside altogether.

As well as Ghost, the undead form of Emmalyn from Minecraft Diaries, who repeatedly forces herself upon Mystreet Zane, because she has confused Mystreet Zane and Minecraft Diaries Zane, and for some reason has also confused Minecraft Diaries Zane, the man who killed her husband... With her husband. Makes sense /s.

As well as.... whatever the hell is going on with Aphmau and Aaron's relationship in Mystreet altogether. Remember that time in Season 4 when Aphmau threw a rock at Aaron after he just got done freezing to death or whatever, because the person that helped him not die... was a girl...... ?????? and she was...... jealous ??????????? so she tried to hit him with a rock??????????????????? was this supposed to be cute??????????????????????????????????

Okay now here's the less serious stuff. Reasons people dont like Jessica and Jason beyond the horrible stuff.

Because the original asker was just asking why people are mad at Jess and Jason, and despite all of the above being very prevalent I mainly see people angry at them for the following:

Bad writing. It comes from both Jess and Jason. Stuff that isn't bad because it's offensive, but because it's just plain bad. In all produced rps, they frequently forget their own lore, characterizations, and write things that just plain make no sense. A lot of people get frustrated with that, understandably.

Stringing fans along. New MCD/Mystreet/Roleplay content is continuously promised and not followed up on. Seasons/series are left unfinished without warning, or rushed to completion in order to throw them in the bin and stop having to write them. Lots of fans have grown tired of hoping for new content for the things they originally followed for. The Aphmau Fantasy Stories channel is inactive for a reason.

Related to above, she mostly just does clickbait-cocomelon-styled videos targeted towards very young children now, which frustrates a lot of old or returning fans looking for more serious content.

Also related to above, retiring or benching main/beloved characters for seemingly no reason. This is most demonstrated by Laurance, but can also be seen in characters like Garroth, Daniel, Lucinda, and Vylad. (One commonality seems to be that this "benching" frequently happens when there are difficulties with employing the voice actor.)

Shipping. Yeah Aarmau is basically the only Aphmau ship featured anymore in all her content, and has been for a while. So people who don't ship that often don't like Jessica, Jason, or their modern content, since the characters are their self-inserts and it's basically their fault.

Content stealing. A lot of her work references other established works, such as making the wyvern dragon language in Minecraft Diaries just being the dragon shout language from Skyrim, taking the titles and sometimes names of the Divine Warriors from mythical figures featured in Final Fantasy, or, most egregiously, stealing the entire Mystreet Season 6 Finale from Fullmetal Alchemist. Yes, they really did do that. In my opinion, some of these seem like simple references to media she enjoys, while some of these (looking at you Mystreet Finale) just feel lazy at best and incredibly deceitful at worst.

The baby voices. All the VAs, including Aphmau, pitch their voices up to sound cartoony now. It's grating.

Jess learned the word "himbo" and now it is Garroth's only personality trait. It's grating.

The Fucklist, or sometimes referred to as The List, is a list Jessica made and posted on her tumblr of characters who, in a less child-friendly version of MCD, would have fucked. The sentence alone is upsetting enough. It's upsetting to read as well. And she didn't even include the canonical Aphmau and Aaron fucking, because it was spoilers at the time. Maybe this doesn't belong here, I don't know if this is the One Reason why a fan has turned on her. But it's probably been the straw that broke some poor camel's back out there.

Some Mystreet fans don't enjoy the more lore-heavy later seasons, and prefer the sillier slice-of-life first couple seasons that the series was originally written with the intention of following.

Similarly to above, some Mystreet fans don't enjoy the MCD crossover lore added late in Mystreet Season 6. Some MCD fans don't enjoy that the series now crosses over with Mystreet.

And more im probably not thinking of at the moment.

You cannot unlearn what you have learned here today.

Sorry.

[sapphosboy]

Hey MCU fans?

Your racism is showing.

[bambazzle]

LGBT+ Fantasy/Fiction Books and TWs

-In the case that a book on the list is the first of a series, TWs will include warnings for the entire series-

IDNS means “I Do Not Support the Author”- reasons will be listed and linked! if you are interested in this author’s book, try to buy second hand!

I have removed some books that were on here, I know! I removed them specifically for problematic content- this book list was not just books I loved, but books I had yet to read and hoped to love. Books that misrepresent or fetishize our community don’t deserve to be supported and spread even more. I have replaced these books with ones that don’t perpetuate harmful stereotypes, so we can all enjoy our escapes! 

1. Carry On by Rainbow Rowell (Trilogy)-

(Fantasy, Witches, Vampires, kind of Harry Potter-y, MLM Romance, TW for suicidal ideation, self-destructiveness, abandonment, foster care, neglect, bullying, major character death, racism, murder and attempted murder, violence, gun violence and relationship issues. It has some heavy topics but is written in a pretty light tone.)

(DNS author: Racism/stereotyping/fetishization of Asian community)

2. Red White and Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston-

(MLM “Enemies” to lovers, about the son of the President and the Prince of England getting into a fight, they have to fake a friendship to fix their PR situation, TW for being publicly outed, semi-graphic sex scenes, politically charged discussions, addiction, underage alcohol use, blackmail, parental death (mentioned), homophobia, panic attacks, sexual abuse/harrassment (mentioned), racism, parental neglect )

3. Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller-

(MLM but not explicitly romance, Ancient Greece, demigods, exile, TW for abduction, abandonment, war, violence, ableism, child abuse, death, human sacrifice, human trafficking, murder, plague (mentioned), sexual assault (mentioned), self-harm, slavery, torture)

4. The Foxhole Court by Nora Sakavic (Trilogy)-

(MLM, very slow burn. Demisexual MC. Mafia mixed with kids with broken homes mixed with a kid who has a dream of being a pro at a fictional sport. The focus is NOT on the relationship, it is the subplot. TW for ableism, verbal and physical abuse, abuse within a psychiatric facility, alcoholism, underage alcohol use, physical assault, sexual assault, conversion therapy (mention), death of an animal, parental death, drug abuse, drug use, drug overdose, drug misrepresentation, violence, gun violence, knife violence, homophobia, hate crime, murder, panic attacks, rehab, self harm, suicide (mentioned), graphic torture, manipulation, police intervention, organized crime/mafia, graphic description of burns. It is a great series but it has heavy content and is not light reading if you go in unprepared.)

5. The House on the Cerulean Sea by TJ Klune -

(MLM (WLW side characters), fantasy, found family, heartwarming romance, magical creatures, TW for abuse(mentioned), trauma-related anxiety, bigotry, body shaming, bullying, child abuse (backstory), internalized fatphobia, homophobia, microaggresions, violence, violence against children)

6. Heartstopper by Alice Oseman (Series)-

(MLM, graphic novel, slow burn, coming out, TW for emotionally abusive relationship, anorexia, self harm, suicidal ideation, bullying(mentioned), psychiatric facility, trauma discussion, homophobia)

7. The Raven Boys by Maggie Stiefvater (Series)-

(MLM, Fantasy, about a secret private school, slow burn, found family, TW for underage alcohol use, drug use, suicide(mentioned), homophobia, domestic abuse, child abuse(mentioned), murder and attempted murder, burglary, car crash, fire related death(non-graphic), kidnapping, terminal illness, sick parent, ritual sacrifice, suicide, violence, gore, gun violence, knife violence, panic attack, PTSD, workplace harrassment)

8. They Both Die at the End by Adam Silvera-

(MLM, Bisexual Latino characters, whole story takes place in 24 hours because at about midnight- aka the start of the book- they get a phone call saying they’re going to die, TW for death, animal death, child death, drowning, violence, gang violence, gun violence, homophobia, panic attack, parental suicide, suicidal ideation, sick parent, police intervention, and foster care)

9. Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo (Series)-

(Queer characters, but no romance in the first book, fantasy, found family, slow burn, TW for graphic depictions of violence, addiction, genocide/fantasy racism, gambling, drug use, withdrawal, ableism, abuse(mentioned), sexual slavery(mentioned/backstory), sexual assault(mentioned/backstory), imprisonment, murder and attempted murder, death, death threats, loss of loved one, prosecution, torture, violence, gore)

10. The Gentleman’s Guide to Vice and Virtue by Mackenzi Lee- 

(MLM Historical Fiction Romance, Travel/Journey, Best Friends to lovers, TW for abuse, homophobia, adoption, alcoholism, breakups, death(mentioned), epilepsy/seizures, prison, robbery)

(DNS author: transphobia/biphobia)

11. In Deeper Waters by FT Lukens-

(MLM, High fantasy, “A young prince must rely on a mysterious stranger to save him when he is kidnapped during his coming of age tour”, TW for kidnapping, violence, abuse, war(mentioned))

12. Aristotle and Dante Discover the Secrets of the Universe by Benjamin Alire Sáenz (Duology)-

(MLM Latino coming of age story, TW for violence, surgery, transmisogyny, sexism, homophobia, hate crime, PTSD, hospitalization, alcohol use, drug use, animal death, car crash, death(non-graphic))

14. We Contain Multitudes by Sarah Henstra-

(MLM, coming of age, friendship and romance, TW for bullying, homophobia, abuse, underage alcohol use, drug use)

15. Beneath the Citadel by Destiny Soria-

(Asexual/Bisexual representation, fantasy, ragtag team goes on a quest, TW for death, abduction/kidnapping, blackmail, branding, child abuse(mentioned), coma, amnesia, execution, murder, addiction, violence)

16. More Happy than Not by Adam Silvera-

(MLM main character, YA, “it's about a boy who is considering a memory-alteration procedure to forget he's gay because leading a life as a straight teen would probably be way easier for him. It's about science versus nature, friendship, sexuality, and a quest for happiness.” About the happy ending and how even bad moments lead to good. Hopeful but despairing. TW for attempted suicide, suicide, domestic abuse, medical procedure to erase sexuality, internalized homophobia, homophobia, depression)

17. I Wish You All the Best by Mason Deaver-

(Nonbinary main character, nonbinary muslim side character, romance/love and building a family out of people you care about. About finding your voice. TW for bad coming out, misgendering, transphobia, family rejection/struggle, anxiety(detailed), child abuse, gender dysphoria, homophobia, disownment, panic attacks, suicidal thoughts, suicidal ideation, underage alcohol use)

18. We Are Okay by Nina LaCour-

(WLW, moving out and coming of age, self-discovery and childhood romance, TW for loss of a loved one, depression, loneliness(detailed), chronic illness, death, drowning(mentioned), suicide)

19. The Rest of Us Just Live Here by Patrick Ness-

(Contemporary, about the normal people’s lives while living among Chosen Ones. Family/coming of age/acceptance story. TW for monsters, apocalypse, violence/explosions, death, anorexia, relapse, panic attacks, anxiety attacks, unrequited romance)

20. Lizard Radio by Pat Schmatz-

(Dystopian story about a teenager struggling with their gender identity, TW for abandonment, oppressive government, outlawed homosexuality, hate crime, homophobia, transphobia, violence)

[melodramas]

i’ve been holding this in for a very long time but i finally feel that i can share my experiences with tori, @lizzo. though this is just one interaction that i had with her that sent me over the edge, tori (a 24 year old white woman) has a history of harassing both people of color and minors (or people who are both, like me). when confronted about her disgusting actions, she acts like a typical white woman: being angry and defensive at first and then making herself out to be the victim time and time again. 

solely for context purposes, this post also brings up alana, @seegoldendaylight, a 34 year old woman who runs a sideblog for the film call be my your name, a film with blatant and graphic pedophilia. when i confronted her about this (completely civilly), she also made herself the victim and claimed that she was being bullied by someone who was half her age at the time. i don’t have the screenshots for the conversation as of right now, but when i did discuss this with her, i remained civil throughout; until she began accusing me of baseless bullying. 

the incident covered in the screenshots below happened on november 2, 2020 (a day before the elections in the usa). 

it’s important to note that this is not an isolated incident. i know for a fact that tori has harassed other minors and people of color in the time between november 2 and today, but it is not my place to share what she has done to them unless and until they feel safe doing so.

the post continues under the cut because it got quite long. please share this and block tori to reduce this racist woman’s platform on this website. 

at the time this occurred, i was 16 and tori was 23. trigger warnings for racism, lgbtqphobia, and pedophilia mentions.

for context, tori was discussing how important she felt it was to cut off conservative friends and family completely because they “didn’t care about lgbtq+ people and Black people.” she brought up her own experiences and how she, personally, was able to cut off conservative people in her own life and asserted that anyone who wasn’t able to do so was a terrible person. 

as seen in the last screenshot, her main point was that even if it was unsafe for someone to disagree with conservatives, they needed to do so.

tori then elaborated and went on a rant about her own situation and how she, personally, was able to successfully get out of a homophobic area and cut off these conservative people, saying (presumably to the other people in the conversation) that she was “tired and angry and somebody should be.” 

at this point, i entered the conversation and (as a moderator) tried to defuse it by speaking civilly with tori and trying my best to explain how tori’s perspective was often unfeasable, especially for people of color and minors. rose (notably a non-usamerican white adult) also agreed with me for the most part.

when i brought up the opression faced by lgbtq+ people in other countries, tori mocked me (and rose) for bringing up these other nations. as soon as we pointed out her aggression, tori made herself the victim by claiming that we were undermining her.

here, the conversation shifted. realizing that there was no way she could spin this in her own favor, tori switched gears, bringing up a conversation between me and her friend alana, @seegoldendaylight. as mentioned above, alana is a pedophilia apologist who is an avid fan of the film call me by your name and believes that all criticism of the film is a personal attack on her. 

tori mentions the old discussion once again, claiming that i undermined her experiences by accurately stating that it’s impossible for some people to cut off conservatives. she also asserts that cmbyn is a film without any pedophilia, all while knowing that it features a graphic, sexually explicit mlm relationship between a 17 year old boy and a 24 year old man. 

she doesn’t let go of the idea that “things are different in italy” to justify her baseless argument. she claims that i, a minor of color, harassed her friend when i civilly approached alana about the issues with the film.

she gaslights me, saying that i’m trying to manipulate her by telling her that pedophilia is bad. she makes another baseless claim when she says that i am only ever sporadically active “whenever i have a point to make.”

she brings up the baseless bullying claims at the same time that she is actively harassing me for expressing my discomfort and disgust towards pedophilia as an lgbtq+ minor of color and ceaselessly asserts that she is in the right.

as soon as other members enter the conversation, tori makes herself the victim again, calling me the bully. she shifts all blame off herself by refusing to acknowledge her aggression by saying that she was “apparently” rude when multiple members in the server were uncomfortable with her behavior.

she brings up alana once more, talking about her friend’s panic attacks that she gets because she is scared of being called out for supporting pedophilia in media. when i bring up my own panic attacks that i have experienced over the course of my time on tumblr that have been caused by the fetishization of lgbtq+ minors of color by white adults, she dismisses me entirely. she has the audacity to claim that all i care about is winning this argument when she mentions my supposed “moral high ground” when the actual issue at hand is her blatant racism and aggression towards a minor of color.

the discussion closes with this. tori summarizes what she believes has happened, completely leaving out how aggressive and blatantly racist she has been throughout the conversation.

apparently, she hates conservatives because they constantly undermine lgbtq+ people and people of color but is unable to have a single civil conversation about her own racist behavior.

please do not engage with tori and just block her. once again, her url is @lizzo. she has a long history of harassing minors and people of color while refusing to learn and grow after her disgusting behavior. she consistently acts like the victim when she is rightfully called out and expects people of color to be civil to her when they explain, time and time again, how she has been openly racist to them in the past. 

thank you for reading!

[tizzyizzy]

Neutrality in the Izzy Discourse Wars

Sometimes I will see people commenting on The Great Izzy War and Discourse of 2022. They will shake their head and say, “Both sides are wrong. Izzy is a complex character who is neither all bad or good.”

While they’re technically correct, I propose that this is the enlightened centrism of Our Flag Means Death discourse.

While I’m sure there are exceptions, the vast majority of Izzy Hands enjoyers acknowledge Izzy’s many, many flaws. It’s impossible not to, with the show highlighting plenty of them. He was an embarrassment of a captain. He’s tragically in love with his boss who he should have left ages ago. His default setting is rude and abrasive. While I think Izzy’s homophobia is often exaggerated and overstated, I do think he is lowkey femmephobic and homophobic. When his boss wanted to hang out with Stede. Izzy decided that his best option was to lure said boss away and have the English murder Stede’s crew. We will all be discussing the Daddy Incident with our therapists for years to come, and while our nightmares become less common, they never truly go away. The general consensus is, “This man is the worst and I love him.”

Izzy Haters, on the other hand, tend to take the position that Izzy is the antichrist. You’ll see ridiculous anonymous messages sent to Izzy enjoyers accusing them of fetishing mlm, racism, abuse apologism, homophobia, tax evasion, extortion, and operating heavy machinery without a license.

I just saw a post that claimed that Izzy was wrong about there not being a full moon in ep4, and Ed was actually right? Ed nearly gets the whole crew killed in the same episode, but people only agree with Izzy’s assertion that Ed’s “erratic” because of their colonialist mindset? Izzy deserved to have his toe sliced off and fed to him, actually? Izzy yelling at Ed in ep 10 when he was angry was actually a cunning, calculated manipulation specifically intended to get Ed at his most vulnerable?

Izzy is the evil, irredeemable villain; just ignore the equivalent or worse behaviors of the other characters.

So saying Izzy is a complicated character with flaws isn’t taking a middle ground as much as it is taking the most common Izzy enjoyer stance.

Odds are I wouldn’t have made this blog if I hadn’t sustained so much permanent neurological damage from bad Izzy takes on this site.

[anupalya]

Dinluke Dialogue

This started as a reblogged response to this original post, but I think it works as a standalone too!

I think what might happen every time these discussions arise in the Dinluke fandom is that whatever gets said ends up going through the Anti Funhouse Mirror before it becomes an onslaught of anon hate, or otherwise gets distorted when shared around from the actual message being given by those most impacted and trying to speak about their own experiences, like an awful game a telephone. Here are some links that helped me understand what was going on. I will primarily be pointing towards the words of those who are best qualified to speak on these topics as they are primarily affected by these issues.

(note:  I am a POC fan and a queer fan, but not MLM or Latine, so I may summarize but am mostly linking to centralize them and elevate their voices. Thank you to everyone whose work was linked, and who also advised and gave feedback).

I also want to say that yes, fingers were ABSOLUTELY pointed towards specific genres and writers (and may still be), but this scapegoating has been checked (in the links I have given) and the dialogue largely returned to its original intent.  I also want to acknowledge that it was in no way okay that anyone received anon hate or threats.

The Issues

Pedro Pascal: Race vs Ethnicity

It has been clarified after some initial misconceptions, by white Latine voices, that yes, Pedro Pascal IS White Latino.  He still experiences xenophobia because of that, and fandom racism can still occur around this when Din’s skin is darkened while also portraying Latine stereotypes in the same work.  I encourage you to check out this explanation of what ends up happening.

Anti-Latine Racism and Xenophobia in Fic

Early on, this conversation mutated when dark fic started to be centered. This should not have happened. Dark fic existing as a genre in and of itself is no issue and not the one being discussed (and anyone who was saying that was distorting the point).  Fic rules are kink rules (and to be very clear, I personally am both dark-fic-positive and kink-positive)!  The issue brought up is when Din being characterized in Latine stereotypes is the dominant Pattern, not just Din being an abuser in dark fic, but Din also being consistently shown as aggressive and "macho" in vanilla fic, as well as his ethnicity being heavily fetishized (once again, please see the link above, as well as this one).  When that is pretty much the common thread through most of the material that exists (and yes there are exceptions, but it takes work to find them), fandom spaces become hostile places to minority groups who are affected by microaggressions and dehumanization every day.

"Bottom" and GNC Luke

For this one, the point is not against Luke taking a "bottom" position in bed in a fic, or Luke in a dress in its own right (and anyone saying that has drastically distorted the point – there are some AWESOME works in this fandom that showcase gender nonconformity!)

Please see here for an explanation of the "bottom" issue. 

And please see here for the nuances of the dress issue and GNC portrayals (of which there are some awesome ones out there!) being discussed.

And here as well for expansion on that. 

And more on application of heteronormativity to queer pairings as the fandom "default," and their defaults in fandoms in general. 

To summarize these above links:  it's not portrayals of gender non-conformity or being on the receiving end of anal penetrative sex in and of themselves, it's the characteristics of "bottom" and gender nonconformity being consistently and heavily conflated with characteristics of weakness, submissiveness, and archetypal femininity, in a way that if it were applied to a female character, it would clearly be sexist (and it already is sexist when applied to an MLM character).  It's the consistent conflation of "luke in a dress" with "must mean he's 'the bottom' and 'submissive and innocent.'"  It's also the fact that there is a Default character in this pairing that such characteristics are given to, even when done respectfully in their own right (e.g. there are fics where Luke bottoming is just Luke bottoming, no bearing on his personality, but the fact that it HEAVILY skews towards Luke when looking at fic percentages is an overall Pattern).  Just as above, when these are the default patterns and common threads in a huge percentage of material (vanilla, dark, otherwise) fandom becomes a hostile space for those who constantly experience microaggressions and bigotry in everyday life.

Finger-Pointing and Scapegoating

The person who originally said "louder and meaner" has since apologized for centering dark fic and taken accountability for their mistakes in the conversation, and has clarified what they meant by "louder and meaner."  I won't speak for them, but will link their apology post below.  However, I'll also leave you with some links to people again clarifying that this conversation should never have pointed fingers towards a specific genre or specific people as solely responsible:  

Apology and accountability post 

Other posts referenced: Here

Here

and here (same link as shown in point 4) 

And of course, there are plenty of more supporting posts than what I have pasted above!

In Summary

This conversation is not about who is “allowed” to write or read queer characters, or characters of various races and ethnicities and nationalities, or fic showcasing dark topics.  It also is not about what genres are “good” or “bad,” or saying writers of one genre specifically are at fault for the overall fandom trends.  If arguments of that nature have reached you (I've seen some), they are distortions of the intent (and many of those who initially pointed fingers have checked themselves and listened when told this was not okay and not the intent, and not even accurate, and have re-engaged with the discussion with the intent to learn).  It’s also not an accusation of bigotry of any individual.

Overall it is a call for introspection, for recognition of implicit biases pushed by mainstream society that we have defaulted to and currently dominate the ship, and for recognition that this dominance actively pushes microaggressions in unavoidable, unfilterable, and demeaning ways at marginalized fans and prevents them from taking part in fandom without having to endure the stereotypes that pervade their everyday lives.  While there are definitely amazing works in the fandom that do not fit the descriptions I have linked and summarized above, they unfortunately aren’t the norm in the culture just yet.  I strongly believe that for the vast majority of fans, the harm is unintentional, but the harm is also very real.

Niche fic and content that is not for everyone and is not intended to reflect reality will always exist and has a right to exist, and individual fics and works in their own right do not a Pattern make. However, this post describes the dominant trends in fandom (not just ours!), and it is which trends that emerge as dominant that reveal how we collectively are at least subconsciously still perceiving MLM and Latine people, and this is what we perpetuate by remaining uncritical of these trends.

It is also true that no minority is a monolith, and it may be asked who gets to decide where "the line" is drawn. My own answer to that, speaking only as myself, is that it's messy for sure, there will always be debate and discussion, no two people will always agree, etc. Imperfect works also have a right to exist, and the “perfect” should never be made the enemy of the “good.”  The point is that we make a good-faith effort and be willing to listen, because so much of what is presented does not stem from specific malicious intent to drive out marginalized voices. No content will be for everyone, but until we listen and learn, very little content will be 'for' the people who have been speaking on this for so long, people who resemble the marginalized identities the ship portrays in real life. And in the meantime, stereotypes will endure.

This is a very good post, both the original, where that post's OP describes the "death of the author" and "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" ideas of engaging with content in general fandom, which I strongly agree with, as well as the reblog by that OP last year, clarifying that this does not mean that sensitive topics or minorities should not be approached with consideration, respect, and intentionality in fan works, or that stereotyping should be ignored, no matter who is posting.

Here are links to people who have specifically offered to engage with those seeking to learn how to portray MLM and Latine characters without falling back on stereotypes:

softieskywalker

Withercrown

Thank you for your time.

[trashquisitor-shirozora]

Hi all!

Touched some grass, maybe touched too much grass, and got wiped out by a headache. The weekly weekday grind is about to begin so I’m going to temper my contributions to the ongoing conversations around and about the dinluke fandom.

That said, I’ve had quite a bit of catching up to do and want to say the following-

While the discourse quickly centered around dark!dinluke and dark!dinluke creators, I agree with Withercrown’s latest and other later posts from others that this group is not solely to blame for what’s been happening to this fandom. The dark!dinluke corner may be the most highly visible one and have contributed much to the toxic stereotypes, tropes, and trends that have dominated much of the fanworks we see nowadays, but they are not the only ones and cannot be solely blamed for every ill that seems to plague and diminish the ship’s fandom. There are many other fanworks that don’t share the same themes and (infamous? improper? nonexistent?) tags as the dark!dinluke corner but feature many of the same problems - racism, racialized xenophobia, homophobia, heterosexism, gendered stereotypes. 

I did my part in centering the debate around them and also on the racism and xenophobia surrounding Din Djarin and Pedro Pascal with my responses to asks, my reblogs, my tags. While I know these conversations needed to be had (and they keep needing to be had, why do we keep needing to have these conversations???), I should’ve done more to highlight the other major problems with the fandom. I also didn’t speak up when discussions and headcanons fetishized and applied heterosexist ideas and tropes onto gay/MLM relationships and characters, and that’s something I need to work on. I’ve complained in private spaces many times my frustrations with characterizations of Luke in particular but never took them public. Seems like it’s time to end that.

It also bears reminding that all of these major problems with the dinluke ship and fandom that had been driving people away and reducing participation in these spaces are not separate. They are not isolated, they are not single issues to be addressed one by one. These are inter-connected and intersectional. Any effort to do better and to make a better community needs to take into account how we should approach Din and Luke as individuals and in a relationship. I do what I can while keeping in mind how Din is perceived because of his actor and I do the same for Luke (and for every other character in Star Wars, really, they all deserve this). 

I’m just a human, I will fuck up (I have fucked up), but I’m always striving to correct myself, learn, and do better - for me, for the people in fandom, and for a ship I very much love.

I have a few asks in my inbox but I want to spend the rest of the night being productive with other things so I’ll address them later in the week. I’m also keeping anon asks off in the meantime for the same reasons. When will anon asks get turned back on? That’s for me to know and for you to find out.

Take care of yourselves. Do what you must for your sake. I’ll see y’all on the flip side.

[i-did]

Do you know when the racism and ableism accusations against Nora started? Because back when I was active in 2016/2017 and don't think they were a thing, or were very low-key. Was it something she said or are people just basing it off the things she wrote in the books?

From what I remember, the first time I heard the blanket statement of “Nora is racist/fetishizes gay men” blanket statement was early fall 2019 (which is so ironic for the fandom to say on so many levels lmao). There wasn’t a catalyst or anything, just she went offline 2016 and no new content was coming out and the aftg fandom is such an echo chamber that… an accidental smear campaign happened.

 Before then, I would see occasional “Nora used ableist slur” which… is funny (not that ableism isn’t serious) to me people care more about that than Seth saying the f-slur. IMO this is because with Seth, it clearly shows the character thinking it and not the author who is writing about what will be an end game mlm relationship. 

But anyways! Long story short, it's the fact that she’s an ace/aro woman who wrote a mlm book, and based off of the events in canon. There is no “Nora called me/someone else a slur” it’s “Nora wrote a book where slur(s) are used” and “the Moriyama’s are Japanese.”

Below I put my own opinion on these claims and go into more detail:

CW for discussions of: racism, ableism, mlm fetishization

Fetishization: (and mentions of sexism at the end)

To one question in the EC about her inspo for aftg she jokingly responded how she wanted to write about gay athletes. On other parts of your blog you could see she was a hockey fan and an overall sports fan (anime or otherwise) but I've seen this statement taken out of context and framed as “she's one of those BOYXBOY” shippers. Considering how… well-developed both Andrew and Neil’s relationship is, and it takes them until like the 3rd book and there is a whole complex ass plot going on around, you can see how that's just. Not really true. And considering the fandom is like… 85% women (queer women but still women) and I've gotten into a discussion with someone who is a woman and called Nora a fetishizer and was ignoring my opinions as a mlm, and I really just wanted to say “well what does that make you?” it's a very ironic high horse. She didn’t write 3 all 3 books to put Neil in lingerie pwp or crop-top fem-fatal fashion show, fandom did. 

Also, I talked to an ace/aro friend about this, and she talked to me about how AFTG spoke to her very much so as an ace/aro story. Neil is demisexual, Nora didn’t know of the word at the time of reading it, but she did get an anon asking if Neil was demi after, and she said “had to look it up, and yep, but he doesn't really think about it” (paraphrased). Obviously it would have been cool if andreil were canonly written as wlw by Nora instead, (which would have increased the amount of wlw rep and demi rep) but tbh I don’t think tumblr would have cared about it nearly as much and everyone would just call Neil a cold bitch–like people do with Nora’s other published book with a main character who's a woman. Plus they're her OC’s, not mine. 

The fact is that 50% of all LGBT+ rep in literature is mlm, mostly white mlm, and not written by mlm. I’m not going to hold her to a higher standard than everyone else, she already broke a shit ton of barriers in topics she discusses that otherwise get ignored. I’m grateful to these books for existing even if it's a mlm story written by a woman. I still will prioritize reading mlm written by mlm–and vice versa with wlw– in the way I prioritize reading stories about POC written by POC. But credit where credit is due, this is a very good story, and a very good demi story. 

Ableism:

To me, AFTG is a story about ableism and how we perceive some trauma survivors more worthy than others. Neil and the foxes using ableist language shows how people actually talk. Neil thinks shitty things about Andrew, like the others do too, and thinks he's “psycho”. The story ultimately deconstructs this idea and these perceptions of people. Wymack, someone who says the r-slur (which is still not known by the general population as a slur even in 2021 much less the early 2000s when the book was beginning to be written and what the timeline is based off of) is a character who understands Andrew better than most of the others do, and gives him the most sympathy and understanding despite using words like the m-slur and r-slur. Using these words isn't good, but it is how people talk, and this character talks. Wymack is a playful “name caller” especially when he’s mad, the foxes think Andrew is “crazy” and incapable of humanity and love because of it. They call his meds “antipsychotics” as an assumption and insult in a derogatory way, when really antipsychotics are a very helpful drug for some people who need them. Even Neil thinks these things about Andrew until he learns to care about him. All the foxes are hypocritical to am extent, as people in real life tend to be. Nora herself doesn’t use these or tweet them or something, her characters do to show aspects of their personality and opinions and how they change over time.

Racism:

As for the racism, I've seen people talk about how racial minorities being antagonists is inherently bad, which I think lacks nuance but overall isn't a harmful statement or belief. However, Nora herself said she wrote in the yakuza instead of another gang or mob because she was inspired for AFTG by sports anime, (which often queer-bait for a variety of reasons). I haven’t seen a textual analysis acknowledging the racist undertones surrounding the Moriyama’s as the few characters of color who are also major antagonists, but instead just “Nora is racist”. Wymack having shitty flame tribal tattoo’s is just… a huge 90’s thing and a part of his character design. Her having a character with bad taste in tattoo trends doesn’t mean she's racist. There is the whole how Nicky is handled thing, but that's a whole thing on it’s own. The fandom… really will write Nicky being all “ai ai muy spicy, jaja imma hit on my white–not annoying like me��boyfriend in Spanish. With my booty hole out and open for him ofc.” and as a Mexican mlm I’m like … damn alright. 

I think there is merit to the fact that she writes white as the default* and unless otherwise stated a POC a character was written with the intent to be white is another valid criticism, as well as the fact that the cast is largely white, but everything Nora is accused of I've seen the fandom do worse. That goes to the debate of, is actively writing stereotypes for POC more harmful than no representation at all? And personally I prefer the lack of established race line that lets me ignore Nora’s canon intent of characters to be white and come up with my own HC’s over the fandoms depictions of “zen monk Renee with dark past” “black best friend Matt who got over drugs but is a puppy dog” “ex stripper black Dan who dates Matt” vague tokenism. I HC many of the upperclassmen as POC and do my best to actively give thought behind it and have their own arcs that also avoids the fandom colorism spectrum of “darkest characters we HC go to the back and fandom favorites are in the front and are the lightest.” 

*I however won't criticize her harsher or more than… everyone else who still largely does this in fanfiction regarding AFTG as well as literature in general. This isn't a Nora thing, it's a societal thing, and considering the books came out in like 2014 I'm not gonna hold her to a higher standard than the rest of the world. She's just someone who wrote her personal OC’s and self-published expecting no following. I don’t know her race and I’m not gonna hold her to a higher standard than everyone else just because. 

The criticisms I've seen have always been… ironic IMO, and clearly I have a lot of thoughts on it. I think most people say those things about Nora because they heard them, and it's the woke thing to say and do and don’t critically analyze their actions or anything, but just accept them. 

[aphverse-confessions]

Shrimp anon here: I quickly wanna adress the two points brought up by the previous anon (link -> https://tinyurl.com/intial-confess). I'll try to keep this as brief as possible (apologies for being such a ramble). To address point one, nobody is 'going to war over' Jess being into RPF fanfiction? If I'm understanding the implication of 'going to war' because my previous two incredibly lengthy confessions... Me writing a long paragraph articulating and explaining my discomfort towards Jess's prior behaviour towards mlm isn't 'going to war' about it'? The point of my second ask wasn't 'Jess shipping RPF IS BAD AND IMMORAL™!!!', the point of my second ask was that 'Jess's treatment of MLM was really questionable. Her involvement with fetishization of mlm has caused harm to people (via Septiplier and queerbaiting), reflecting on her previous actions is deeply discomforting as a queer person'. If someone doesn't understand the rationale behind a point I'm including/making (which was the case in my response confession), I want to explain that point as thoroughly as possible in order to offer my own perspective. It's important to me to clarify and to explain why I feel a certain way in depth to open up a larger disscusion. I sincerely apologize if my tone came across as snippy, rude or aggressive otherwise 🙏 Point two: I'm not acquainted with Aphblr or the Aphmau fandom socially (I prefer to keep to myself), although that absolutely should be condemned. Believe me anon, as a person of colour myself, I have seen fandom racism rampant online and go unchecked because the larger (majorly white) fandom refusal to address it. When it comes to addressing the racism within Jesson's writing; in my original ask, I highlighted the racism within the writing as a pressing issue that wasn't being addressed by the fandom at large. It also kinda really rubs me the wrong way as a person of colour, who has sent previous confessions*** addressing the racism of Jesson's writing in depth and detail is.... Ok I'll be blunt here: the implication that my point of mlm prioritized RPF wank over fandom racism... Is a feeling alright™. Discussing my discomfort with Jess's treatment of mlm and by extension queer people, as a queer person myself especially a queer poc, is not underplaying fandom racism nor is it ignoring said racism. Conversations about fandom racism and queer issues (such as the treatment of mlm) can and should co-exist with one another and can very much intersect without having to exclude the other. ***(links for said confessions for reference: https://tinyurl.com/confess-1 / https://tinyurl.com/confess-2) I don't wish to continue having back-and-forths about the morality of Jess's enjoyment RPF, since I don't want the original points and contents of my ask getting overshadowed ;_;(link to my original confession -> https://tinyurl.com/og-jesson-confess). For everyones sakes, let me wrap up the intial Septiplier point with a pretty bow. If you don't consider Jess's consumption of MLM and/or Septiplier a pressing issue due to the myriad of other problems (racism, grooming, Jason, etc), that is absolutely valid and understandable. If you do consider Jess's consumption of MLM as a pressing issue due to the harm it caused (queerbaiting and Septiplier), that is absolutely valid and understandable. It can be considered a smaller problem or a bigger problem from person to person, and thats understandable. Theres nuance to be had with both points and we shouldn't take to one extreme while ignoring the other. As I said before, I want to open up broader discussions within Aphblr and to encourage people seeing different viewpoints. The initial conclusion of my initial MLM+Septiplier points were to open up a different perspective and to open up a discussion. All and all, I do want to apologize for the trouble my confessions might've caused ;_; Thank you Aphverse Mod for being such a trooper with my essays. Here is your shrimp for reading till the end 🦐

.

[voxofthevoid]

Taking It Up The Ass Isn’t Character Growth - A Rant

So, in response to an ask a while back, I said I had a rant brewing on fandom and sex positions, and well, a lot of you wanted to see it, so here you go. You literally asked for it.

Disclaimer: This is going to talk a lot about top/bottom roles in slash fic and fandom attitude towards them and is heavily filtered through the lens of my own tastes and experiences with fandom. I’d also like to be upfront that I am 100% in favor of people writing whatever fictional content they want, and it’s not what fandom does with characters that bothers me but rather how that translates into attitudes towards real, live people. Also, this is the essay version of a slow burn AU because I regurgitate my entire fandom history before getting to the point. Beware.

I discovered fan-fiction around a decade ago, had no clue what the hell it was, got hooked and dived deeper. I started participating in fandom circa 2013, and I was fairly young and also completely inexperienced both sexually and romantically. The fandom in question was Hannibal and my ship of choice was Hannibal/Will. It was/is a very chill fandom in general, but we had our drama. And chief among the contentious topics was—you guessed it—the top/bottom debate. I can’t actually remember any other topic that was discussed and argued for so ardently in that fandom, at least in those days. Even after I drifted away, I came across a few posts on the matter.

Generally, you had two camps—people who supported strict roles and those who were in favor of switching*. And because we’re a society plagued by illogical assumptions, the strict role camp mostly had people who thought Mr. Big Bad Cannibal in the Fancy Suits wouldn’t take it up the ass because he’s older, more experienced, more mentally stable, and of course, more ‘dominant’ in personality. Yes, that sentence is chock full of problematic shit. I am aware. Lots of people were aware and argued strongly against attributing top/bottom roles to personality. I don’t remember anyone arguing as enthusiastically for Top Will, but those voices were also there. But the general idea was that assigning strict top/bottom roles to a male/male couple was casting them in a heterosexual mold and thus, the progressive option was to make them switch. Strict roles also garnered comparisons to “yaoi” and uke/seme stereotypes, which was of course bad and fetishizing and we, the Western media fans, of course had to do better. Stealth racism is fun to untangle.

Anyway, I lapped up the woke juice. Partly because I was a baby queer from Buttfuck Nowhere, Asia, who had zero exposure to LGBT+ communities and what queer folks did with each other. Partly because it was the stance taken by most of my favorite writers so it seemed like a good position to emulate.

Emulate it I did. Most discussions I had about this happened in private with the handful of close friends I had in fandom. Where it really showed was in my writing. I made sure to write switching—maybe not in every fic, but then I alternated between fics. Thing is though, I did have a preference. I liked Top Will. I created and consumed a ton of Top Hannibal, and sometimes it was okay, sometimes it was not, but I couldn’t pinpoint why it made me uncomfortable. Back then, I thought I was a cis questioning/bi girl and once again, the impression I got was that not being MLM, having a preference was automatic fetishization. So I tried my best to justify my preferences, to my friends at least. I think what I said was that fandom was skewed towards Top Hannibal, and I liked the opposite because I’m a contrary fuck. Which I am, to be fair, but this was just me desperately trying to figure shit out without being offensive.

That’s the line I touted all the way until 2018, which was when I fucked off to grad school in A City, finally freed of Buttfuck Nowhere and able to actually date. At this point, I was settled in my sexuality (girls only) and questioning my gender (non-binary or trans guy). I had also tentatively figured out during undergrad that I’m an exclusive top and a Dom. Actual attempts at dating cemented that, yes, those are my preferences, about as flexible as a steel rod. Cue motherfucking epiphany over my fanfic tastes.

And see, over these years, I was engaging intermittently with fandom. I dutifully wrote switch couples. I also continued to have rigid tastes and continued to explain it away as being a contrary fuck—to be fair, until Steve/Bucky, my preference did seem to be the opposite of the larger fandom preference. But correlation, as we know, isn’t causation. Until Steve/Bucky, I continued to write versatile couples because I honestly didn’t have the guts to just say I liked it just one way. I do now but even then, I feel compelled to add that it’s because I want to see my own taste reflected in fic, so I write/read the character I relate to as a top, it's not that deep etc. Would I be as forthright if I didn’t have that reason? Would I have such strict preferences in fic if I didn’t have strict preferences IRL? The latter’s a mystery, but the former isn’t—I wouldn’t be because fandom is still entrenched in the same ideas that got me to this point to begin with.

In every fandom I’ve been in, I’ve seen some version of this debate go around. Sometimes, it’s one party saying “why would you write Character X as a bottom, he’s so Reason A” and a reblog chain that insults the OP and/or extols the virtues of switching. Sometimes, it’s a general-ish message that says they don’t understand why people have strict preferences when we all know real gay couples switch. Sometimes, it’s blanket statements that accuse anyone with preferences of fetishizing. Sometimes, it’s the same reasoning that gets you “Character Y is a top because of Reason B” transposed on versatile couples except this takes the form of “they switch because they’re equals.”

Ya’ll, I’m fucking tired.

I have long since lost count of the number of stories I’ve seen where an exclusive top learning bottom and liking it is character growth. Where a character who prefers to bottom taking a turn on top is empowering.

Isolated, these are fine. But I’ve seen enough of such stories that it’s distinctly discomfiting and a major squick. Sometimes a trigger, if I'm too immersed in the story. I’m not going to try and burn an author at the stake because they pissed me off. I am just going to close that window and quietly handle my shit. People can write whatever they want. But this one theme hits too close to home, as you can see from this 1.6k rant.

My friend (also my ex-girlfriend) and I had an all-out bitching session about this the other day. Both of us are kinky fuckers who have rigid, complementary roles we prefer and we have both had our grueling days of struggling to reconcile our sexual tastes with our ideologies precisely because of how these things are frowned upon in conservative and progressive circles. Seeing that in fandom, of all places, is both insulting and exhausting. Topping and bottoming aren’t personality traits. Neither is D/s. It’s sexual preference and power play. It really does not have to be that deep. I am not exorcising childhood trauma using the bodies of women. My partners, former and current, have not been brainwashed by the patriarchy. We will not become better, more complete individuals once I magically stop being a stone top and my partners embrace the joys of a strap-on.

I have, with my own two eyes, seen someone say that in a really committed relationship, of course the couple will switch.

Bullshit.

It’s transparent bullshit. This does not get attributed to cisgender M/F couples. Even when the automatic assumptions of woman = bottom and man = top get addressed, switching isn't presented as the default. No one’s saying “oh, if you really love your husband, you’ll peg him”. I do know butch/femme sapphic couples get their own share of shit. Because it’s all heteronormativity, right? Can’t have any other reason for top/bottom roles.

You have two extremes with “so who’s the woman” on one end and “it’s woke only if they switch” on the other, and as far as I’m concerned, they’re equally damaging. There shouldn’t be a pressure, however subtle, to conform your taste in fiction to some arbitrary idea of progressiveness. People are going to like whatever they want anyway; all this does is create an atmosphere where those likes can’t always be freely expressed without a lot of mental gymnastics. We’re seeing so many versions of this in the pushback against so-called problematic content, but smaller, subtler versions exist too.

Fictional characters aren’t real. They can be whatever you want them to be. And yes, other people will often want them to be the exact opposite of your ideas, but that’s just how things work. Meanwhile, the people behind these usernames? They’re real. No one should be throwing real people under the bus to ‘protect’ characters that don’t exist. Hannibal Lecter doesn’t care whether he gets fucked or dismembered in Author B’s fanfiction, but the discourse that surrounds the dick up his ass? That does affect flesh and blood people.

I am not claiming that this is the only attitude in fandom. Middlegrounds do exist. Plenty of people abide by fic and let fic and there are folks who pipe up to say not every RL queer couple switches. But it’s often the extremes that reach most people. That was certainly my experience, and I’m not the only one.

I don’t really know how to end this post. It is 100% a rant and one that’s been building up for a while. Bottom line is that people’s sexual behavior varies wildly and whenever you attack sexual tastes in fanfic by saying it’s unrealistic - or worse because let’s be real, that’s a very tame word choice - please remember that there’s likely someone out there who practices it.

* I’m using switch and versatile synonymously in this post. It’s mostly concerned with top/bottom debates. A lot of what I’m saying is also echoed in portrayals of and discussions surrounding D/s dynamics, but I’m not addressing that as much for now.  

[ohallows]

Hi this is gonna sound real dumb but when does writing mlm fanfic become fetishisation? I’ve heard the word used a lot but no one ever gives receipts to show what they mean and I get really confused

oh dw this doesn’t sound dumb at all! i’m happy to help explain. first off, here are some helpful twitter threads and articles from people that explain it very well imo:

an incredible thread from a trans guy on twitter about fetishization of mlm (nsfw mentions)

quick, to-the-point description

great article that gets a bit more into the racism and misogyny aspect of exclusively shipping white dudes together and ignoring women

a follow up to the above post

thoughts about the topic from a cishet woman who is also uncomfy  

gonna shove my own opinions under the cut:

it is Not My Lane to talk about how mlm (or nonbinary people) view other mlm relationships in media. however! there is a... frankly gross trend in fandom where women (although of course its not only women) will take two men in a piece of media (whether canon or not) and do a couple of... let’s say, worrying things. mostly this comes in the form of: 

focusing solely (or predominately) on the sexual nature of their relationship (basically, creating content that they find “hot” and nothing else)

referring to their shipping of the couple as “sinning”

calling themselves “fujoshis” - this is normally something straight girls do tbh

ignoring (canon or otherwise) wlw pairings for their male ship (or straight up being Incredibly Misogynistic and Racist toward female characters - a lot of time this comes across as either erasing female characters in fics or completely changing their personality in order to make them more unlikable)

when canonically gay/bi/pan men are introduced in canon, immediately turning it into something sexual or constantly making sexual references about them even when there is. nothing in the content to suggest that. 

erasing a character’s canon asexuality because you want to write loads of porn about them (this is part of a larger discussion about aphobia in fandom and the nuance of sex-positive and sex-neutral and sex-averse aces, which again. i am happy to discuss but will also provide links to people who can speak about it better than i can.) 

just... being very stereotypical in general? like. making the smaller/thinner/younger one submissive and “more feminine”, leaning into the idea that gay men are hypersexual, etc. 

this isnt specifically fetishization, but there’s this weird trend of sorts where women will be like. super into fucked up power dynamics and age gaps and such between two mlm characters and write loads of noncon porn about them because they find it hot. 

i am in no way saying that women can’t write/read fic (even nsfw fic!) about mlm pairings. i do! that would be asinine and hypocritical for me to say. however, as with all media, you need to critically examine what you create and engage with. no media exists in a vacuum and its irresponsible and reductive to say that it does. 

tl;dr, if you identify as a woman and literally the Only Media You Care About is about mlm, you need to examine that. additionally, if you identify as a woman and predominately care about the sexual nature of mlm pairings, examine that too. this goes for bi/pan women as well! we are just as capable of being fetishy and weird and creepy as straight women are when it comes to gay men tbh. fic about mlm should not be exclusively written **by and for** women.

anyway, i hope this helps, and please feel free to ask more, or share more resources, or, hell, even correct me! i’m always looking to grow as a person and improve my own understanding of things.

[molusca]

she apologized for how she handled the situation and apologized for brushing off someone's honest criticisms as hate. what more is she meant to do? throw herself onto a pyre? is she not allowed to feel lousy that this whole thing blew up in her face? because she's an adult and she made a mistake, she's not allowed to be sad or stressed? she's still an imperfect human. apologizing immediately usually means people are still sensitive to their own hurt of being called out because it's fresh and on their mind so it tends to slip into their apology, but if she had waited any longer to compose herself, you guys would probably have an issue with how long she took. also, in aaaaaallll of this, I've have yet to once see what exactly about her work is so problematic? I've read her fic and I personally can't see anything wrong, although I will admit that yes, I'm a white ciswoman but I'd like to think I'm aware of negative tropes. but the only thing touted is "it made an mlm uncomfortable" but HOW??? honestly, I want to know! if anything so I can avoid doing the same thing! how is anyone meant to learn when you're not bringing up these points as often as you're explicitly laying out the problems in her apology and whatnot. I've seen 6 posts about how shit the apology was and for why and I've not once seen the original comment detailing why the fic was problematic, and I've been looking on twit, tumblr, insta, and ao3. if it's been deleted, why isn't anyone stating again and again what's wrong? also, if someone is making fic/art you don't like, don't. interact. with. it. there's tons of stuff on ao3 and twit that I don't like, some of it that I think is disgusting (do you know how many fics there are with keith/kosmos?) and I just scroll past it cause it can't hurt me if I don't read it. there's one artist that's pretty popular on Twitter and I personally really hate they way they draw klance but it's all over my tl. I respect that person's art style and creativeness and keep on moving. other people enjoy it, good for them. and if I start reading something and get surprised with something I dont like, I leave! find people who write things you like and stop engaging with creators who's things you don't like, as far as I know no one is holding a gun to your head making you read problematic fic. also for as much as you rag on her for the words she used to apologize, you don't seem to be considering your own words when offering criticism. if Taylor mistook the person's words as hate, couldn't it have been because the way he worded the complaint was done hatefully? lastly, no one, absolutely no one, is required to talk about world issues when they're running a fandom account,no matter how "big" they are. we all know what's going on in the world, we're surrounded by sad and stressful stories practically 24/7 and if someone isn't, they're probably curating their social feeds to be that way (like you should do when it come to kl content creators you don't like). people sending hate in Taylor's defense are in the wrong I agree, and this isn't hate its critism its a discussion, but Taylor isn't responsible for, how many people did you say? 16k on twit? even if she said hey guys stop, you think they would? she's can't control all those people and expecting her to is nonsense. I see so many younger fans expecting perfection in their fandoms and that just isn't going to happen. yes we should be striving to be better but no one is ever going to be perfect. not you, not me, not the mlm person, not Taylor, not anyone on any side of this argument. the only way to avoid this kind of circular dog piling and hate sending is to better curate your fandom experience by ignore those you have issues with.- 🦛

she apologized for how she handled the situation and apologized for brushing off someone's honest criticisms as hate. what more is she meant to do?

im pretty sure i said its good that she realizes she handled it poorly. but she makes the whole apology about this, doesnt directly talk about the issues and i know someone went to her to talk about it. also, it took her a day to say something about it so it wasnt exactly immediate (in the sense people had already stopped talking about it but that doesnt mean they werent still bothered). the apology was directed at mlm, and i havent seen one saying it felt genuine. of couse she can be hurt but when you apologize to a marginalized group the focus shouldnt be your feelings, but the feelings of the ones you have hurt.

I've have yet to once see what exactly about her work is so problematic?

she admits to be projecting on lance. so she makes him very femine and keith very masculine. and ok, gay couples like that do exist, but she is a woman projecting in this situation so this bothers people. putting mlm in this position is a harmful steriotype, bc it feels very heterosexual. this is a trope, it unfortunately happens a lot and its harmful. women need to be aware of what they are representing when drawing/writing mlm because well, real mlm are going to see it, and no one likes to feel like a fetish to others. and its not our place to question if the criticism is right or wrong when we are not mlm, so if you read this and think “but thats not a problem thats not a fetish etc” well, its not your place to judge that. theres more to it and you probably could get a better answer from a mlm sorry.

if someone is making fic/art you don't like, don't. interact. with. it. there's tons of stuff on ao3 and twit that I don't like, some of it that I think is disgusting (do you know how many fics there are with keith/kosmos?) and I just scroll past it cause it can't hurt me if I don't read it.

please, lets not compare a minority pointing out harmful tropes with. something fucking illegal.

as you said, you are a cis woman, of course its not going to hurt you in this case. but if people are making harmful content its not a simple matter of “dont interact with it” because they will still be promoting it, other people are going to read it, and media influences how we see minorities so of course people will not like when they see bad portrayal of them. also, tumblr sucks so even if you want to just “dont interact with it” its hard because even after blocking you can still cross the content of someone. not sure how it works on twitter but anyway this discussion started on tumblr and tumblr doesnt stop people who were bothered by her to avoid her by blocking.

if Taylor mistook the person's words as hate, couldn't it have been because the way he worded the complaint was done hatefully?

i think she deleted the ask by now, but i dont remember the ask being hateful. i remember someone asking if she was a fujoshi, and another person mentioned that mlm didnt like the way she portrayals klance. i dont remember it being hateful. but again, she apologized for handling it badly. its just that she stops there.

no one, absolutely no one, is required to talk about world issues when they're running a fandom account,no matter how "big" they are. we all know what's going on in the world, we're surrounded by sad and stressful stories practically 24/7 and if someone isn't, they're probably curating their social feeds to be that way

ignoring world issues is a privilege. if someone is able to turn off from all the problems in the world, its a privilige. yes no one should talk aobut it all the time thats not even healthy, but to never talk about it is a privilege. thats what black people are saying, they cant just turn off from racism, so yes they are going to expect white people to do something. online honestly i cant do shit, i dont think anything i reblog here does a difference and i do what i can in my own country, but she has a plataform that could help bring awareness. again, its a privilege to be able to curate your social media to be a perfect happy place.

even if she said hey guys stop, you think they would? she's can't control all those people and expecting her to is nonsense.

maybe they wouldnt, but if people were doing this type of thing in my name, in my defense, i would at least say something about it idk. she cant control them but she makes nothing to show that she disagrees or look for the people being harassed to say something about it.

the only way to avoid this kind of circular dog piling and hate sending is to better curate your fandom experience by ignore those you have issues with.

when it comes to simple things like “i prefer taller lance and i dont like taller keith” yeah, its fine to ignore people who draw taller keith and move on with your life or something like that. but we are talking about mlm, a real group of people, being upset for being portrayed in a harmful and steriotype way. its everywhere in fandom, and in real life. they cant escape from real life, and then they come to fandom where everyone wants some escapism and have to deal with more issues. its tiring

[llycaons]

I agree with everything you have said about MDZS, i'm always worried to tell my opinion because of the fandom. You see, if I criticize the bath dubcon scene when Lan Wangji is drunken, then i don't understand chinese culture and i'm racist :-/

Anyway I agree when you said that the ending in the novel is quite unbalanced to Wei Wuxian. Yeah, because his relationship with Lan Wangji after the events is codependency at its finest. The drama ending instead gives more space to their maturity and progress.

why, thank you! I wrote a monstrously large response which you can find below the cut. tl; dr: I'm glad you agree, but I think it's...complicated?

coming to into the fanbase fresh from the show, it was jarring how different it was from the novel and it was upsetting the lengths that people (including big-name translators and fans with huge followings) would go to defend romanticized or downplayed depiction of sexual assault and the homophobic tropes that went along with them. and it did take a lot of research and thought on my part to come to where I am today wrt the novel. I trust maybe one blogger who's fairly popular and don't interact with anyone else. I can provide some blog recs if you don't want to interact with those sorts anymore

however I do want to be really careful when navigating this space, because it is a work created in a different language, and society, and cultural context than the one I live in, and especially as a white fan I want to take any possibilities of racism very seriously. because since the show blew up I have seen many posts from Chinese fans/diaspora fans about the racism in the fanbase, from making jokes about people's names to infantilizing the lead men to trying to 'correct' the political structure to plain misreading the novel, sometimes willfully so. it's easy to assume the worst, and I have definitely struggled with that, especially with fetishizing translators. but it's worth it to try to understand it in good faith if we're going to critique it. and just to be clear - the dubcon bath scene was rape. it was recognized textually as rape. the problem was with how it was treated afterwards, as well as how the entire relationship was handled. but actually, I don't see their relationship as codependent by the end? it's not ideal and I kind of dislike them as a couple, especially with how possessive novel lwj is, but wwx does leave for hunts and such fairly regularly. The cql ending was so beautiful and romantic by comparison and the respect I had for both characters was much greater - for lwj to let wwx go free and for wwx to take the time he needed to care for himself and adjust before rushing into an intense relationship is development for both of them I love it 🥰

BUT I don't feel like I'm in a position (white bi american in a liberal family in ny) to tell lgbt cn fans how to feel about this novel, or to celebrate its censorship. I love cql and I do think it's better in a lot of ways to the novel, but it's also a product that was approved by a homophobic censor. homophobia impacting real people in china isn't something I want to ignore in this discussion either, and with the novel, I've seen both sides. I've seen plenty of lgbt chinese and easian fans who hate the novel or refuse to read it because of its fetishism and homophobia materially benefitting a cishet woman. and media portrayals of mlm like that can do real harm in communities who aren't exposed to other lgbt content. but it's also massively popular and apparently a lot of lgbt fans like it locally, probably for having a compelling bi lead and a gay romance with a happy ending. so there's no one easy answer! any group of people will have contradictory and varying views. so that's why I urge everyone new to the show and to cmedia (especially if you're white!) to research, come to their own conclusions, and err on the side of caution when listening to and boosting the voices of people most involved, who are chinese lgbt people and especially mlm

now I absolutely despise the sex scenes in the novel and the general portrayal of their relationship, and vastly prefer the more balanced, trustful, knowing, and mature version we see in the show, and I believe that I'm in the right for this (plus the side characters were more fleshed out, the flashback was better organized, there was more emotional weight to things happening). there's also the conversation to be had that acting like mlm don't understand consent is deeply homophobic, and white fans acting like chinese mlm don't understand consent is racist on top of that. and the issues of the novel neither originally stem from chinese media nor are unique to china - iirc, danmei arose in popularity due to the rise of BL and yaoi in japan. and you see many of the the same stereotypes in BL as you do in danmei.

also I don't know if you're new to this space, but if you want to read a danmei that treats its gay leads normally, I heard golden stage is really good. if you want to read about women falling in love amid battles and political schemes, female general eldest princess is probably the most famous baihe (big warning for racism, xenophobia, and genocide against central asian people). and if you like dramas like cql - well, I don't think there's anything like cql but I found legend of fei fun and lwj's actor plays a love interest again. the show guardian was also adapted from a danmei and I heard that was really powerful

this got out of hand! thanks for your ask, and please understand none of this was directed at you specifically, or in fact at anybody. I feel responsible to engage with media critically and respectfully, and I want to encourage everyone else to do that same. especially if you came in cold, like I did. I can also link you to some posts made by easian and central asian users talking about their take of the novel, including their issues with it. if you read this far, I really appreciate it and I hope you have a good night :)