#discussion of fatphobia

[aviofavalon]

i always like think about maybe taking full body selfies and semi nudes to post and just like. idk. normalize it more and i always go nah idk about that and then i see some absolute cutie rocking it like. hm

idk i have an odd relationship with my weight, because like.... whilr sometimes i have thought, oh man, maybe i'm fat ): i end up choosing not to worry about it. especially bc like my whole life people told me i look just like my mom, and my mom is literally one of the most beautiful people i have ever seen, so it's hard not to like. know i'm pretty

but also?? my mom has awful body dismorphia and absolutely struggled with her appearance and her weight when i was a kid. and it just confused me? bc she's so gorgeous??

but also like fatphobia is ridiculous and i honestly like. am floored by people who are so viscerally fatphobic. i can never forget when i excitedly posted a picture of myself in a bikini on here years ago, bc i was excited about the bikini, and somebody told me i don't have the body for it

and it doesn't really get to me but i can't help but sometimes like

does my girlfriend really not care that i'm fat? a lot of people care about that. does she actually think i'm attractive?

and it may partially be bc my girlfriend is one of the skinniest people i know so maybe like i get worried she might accidentally be like, fatphobic skinny person

or like, to step away from fat for a second but my facial hair? i was bullied for being so hairy as a kid and being afab and people now tell me like aw your beard is cool! or your beard is cute!!

i think i wanna post cute pictures of my body and my face but like hm

i recognize some of this btw may be sex work trauma lol like, needing to look a certain way, knowing less people will want my work if i don't shave or cover up fat

i have no idea where i was gojng with this i have more to say and work out i think but frankly i might take a nap

[grendel-menz]

a diary of my diagnosis and treatment coming out in may

[hometownrockstar]

We very much need to become more aware of the cultural perception and criteria of fatness bc the latest online discussions of it are deeply embarrassing to read. Everyone has a different definition of fatness, and this is due to the way society dictates fatness in relation to others. A person could be called skinny or fat depending on the context, who or what theyre being compared to relative wise, clothing sizes, its all due to the stigma of fatness that makes any slight connection to it (being the slightest bit curvier compared to the stick thin standard, having a small stomach pouch, ect.) be seen as confirmation of fatness

But whats crucial to understand here is that bigger bodied fat people will never have the "privilege" of being considered skinny, and their existence is often treated as a way to make skinnier or mid-size people look thinner by comparison. Fatphobia is ALL about being afraid or uncomfortable with the biggest fat people, of being like them in any way. So while you are arguing about whether the latest "chubby rep" character is actually "average/normal sized" (i hate categorizing any body type as normal btw), maybe pause for a moment to consider if you or anyone else in this discussion has thought about fat people who could NOT be afforded the argument about whether theyre skinny, fat, or midsize. The ones who are unequivocally fat, with double or triple chins, fat rolls, large stomachs or double stomachs, ect. They are the ones being most left out of discussions and arguments about what constitutes as "really" fat/chubby, when they face the brunt of fatphobia and erasure the most

[poisonheiress]

Vivziepop and Queer Rep

As we all know, many fans and media reps alike have commented on the apparent "queer rep" seen in both Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel with many sighting their MLM relationships and use of Sallie May as proof of Vivzie's dedication to queer rep. Yet for how much this idea is spouted across social media, I cannot say that Viv truly cares about Queer Representation in her shows. The apex of this disagreement comes from phrase that man people seem to not remember when it comes down to queer rep: Representation for one is not Representation for all.

In her hyperfocus on thin, cis mlm relationships, Vivzie creates rep for only those relationships, leaving behind countless other queer identities and relationships that also heavily need queer rep. The largest dismissal of queer individuals/relationships in HH or HB appears in characters that fall into one of three categories, The Fat, Sapphic, and The Nonbinary.

The Fat

When some of you look at this, you may be confused as to what fatness has to do with queer rep, I would tell you that it has a lot to do with it. Fat people are not inherently removed from queerness and have been there since the beginning, the creation of the term Bear is proof of that. This is the first strike on HH and HB's records.

As many other creators have thoroughly pointed out, fat representation is abysmal in both HH and HB with either shows either lacking fat rep completely or having fat characters made using more fatphobic stereotypes than I could count. With this poor managing of fat representation, its no surprise that Vivzie pop ignores all possible avenues of queer rep with fat people involved. This also impacts her presentation of mlm ships with all those in these ships only appear as thin cis men, not a single bear or trans man in sight.

The Sapphic

The second largest and arguably most obvious strike against Viv comes in her disturbing lack of sapphic relationships in both shows. While HH has at least one sapphic ship (Charlie and Vaggie), HH has none to speak of. As a result, Viv's ratio of Sapphic to Achillean relationships is heavily one-sided.

It shouldn't take me having to say this for many of you to realize that you cannot claim to have true or complete queer representation when you ignore a whole side of the queer community. While this issue in sapphic relationships likely tied to Vivzie's smaller amount of women in her stories, this does not excuse it. Having one or two of these secondary characters be in a sapphic relationship (especially Sallie May) be shown or even mentioned in passing (not random background shoots) has having a girlfriend would fix this issue, but we cannot even get that.

The Nonbinary

The final strike against Vivzie's queer rep comes in both shows ignoring the existence of nonbinary characters as a whole. While we get some presentation for the binary trans community (even though most are background characters never seen again besides Sallie May), we have yet to see a single nonbinary character in either show's canon.

This is honestly fucking ridiculous. To ignore an entire gender identity because its easier or you simply don't want to is ridiculous and should strip any claimed queer rep media from their title. Nonbinary people have always existed throughout time in different countries and cultures. To think that they're wouldn't be a single nonbinary sinner or demon in hell after all this time does not make sense.

Trans people on the binary and nonbinary side have the right to representation equally, and even if we were to ignore the concerns about Viv's current trans rep, trans people deserve more rep than random background characters and a one dimensional trans woman.

The Finale

As I end this essay, I do want to say that I wanted to discuss HH and HB's treatment and ignorance of asexuality and aromanticism as they are both highly relevant to the discussion. However, I need to do more digging on Alastor and his ace situation first before I do so in order to prevent spreading misinformation.

But even without this section, I still stand on my belief that neither of Viv's shows should be paraded around as good queer media or as truly supporting queer rep. While HH has a little more leeway with Viv's only sapphic ship, HH and HB still ignore large sections of the queer community. It feels more like Viv is picking at the parts of the community she likes more, grabbing at the more marketable identities and appearances until she has enough to call her show queer.

I hope one day Viv will listen to her fans and critiques about this lack of other queer identities but I will not hold my breath. All that is left to say is that queer people deserve better especially in adult shows and in animation. Picking and choose what queer people you include in your media simply because you like one more is the farthest thing from queer rep.

[angelpuns]

CW FOR UNWANTED DISCUSSION OF BODY, MISGENDERING, FATPHOBIA, A BIT OF EYESTRAIN

Please let me know if it needs any other warnings <3333

Another TMNT:HME style test. Similar to the last one, but more of a painted sort of background? I'm not 100% satisfied with this one tbh. Also translating things parents say about your body into turtle stuff is difficult??? Maybe I'll work on that since this will come up again :/

Anyway this comic also has an alt. palette ( it's the original palette but I wanted to try with this darker look)

I'll reblog with it later if anyone wants to see it <3

This comic has been the most...idk sad so far. Um. there are worse things in this google doc, but I was feeling v dysphoric today (brought on by a similar sort of conversation to this one) soooo a treat!

This one is also a bit longer than previous style tests :)

TMNT:HME Masterpost

[transmascrage]

TW for discussion of eating disorders and body shaming

Since I had this exchange with @krispykrememothnuts I thought I'd look more into this:

And yeah, the fashion industry has an issue with making clothes that fit short men and fat men.

This is something that affects transmascs and cis men.

The fashion industry isn't friendly to any fat person but I think it tends to be more lenient towards short women because it's more acceptable for them to be short.

Meanwhile, men should be tall according to the beauty standard.

We know that eating disorders are extremely common among cis men and transmascs (Cis men: Source 1, Source 2, Source 3. Trans men: Source 1, Source 2. Gay men: Source 1, Source 2, Source 3.)

And it doesn't help that all the representation in fashion that we get are tall dudes with abs that can (usually) only be achieved through dehydration, restricting diets and intensive work-outs. And that it's considered acceptable to make fun of people for their height, weight, hairline, face, as long as it's men.

And as I mentioned in the comment, not being able to find men's clothes that fit me I have to buy women's clothes that make me dysphoric and usually show my bra or binder straps, which immediately clocks me as not-a-man.

It's also important to note that a TERF talking point is that transmascs transition because of eating disorders. While it's possible that gender dysphoria and eating disorders have a link, it's not a cause-effect situation, i's more of a comorbid condition.

Looking into transmasc eating disorders could disprove this TERF theory but alas no one cares enough about transmascs to do a research only about our experience with eating disorders and trans people are usually treated as a homogenous group.

[tenpintsof-sundrop]

Skinny people can be in a fic without it being fatphobic. Get over utsealf

Get your bingo cards everyone!!!

It's time to check off: 'skinny people being offended when they are not obviously the center of attention' oh! and 'skinny people taking any discussion of fatphobia as a direct attack'

Okay, so - who has bingo? I certainly do.

Yes - skinny people can be in a fic without it being fatphobic. But if the writer claims that their fic is open ended and the reader character is meant to describe as wide of a range as people as possible, then it is fatphobic if there is unconscious descriptions or implications that the reader character is a thin person.

One of the most common implications that the reader character is a thin person? Describing the reader character wearing a tee shirt (or another piece of clothing) that belongs to a thin canon character, especially if it is described as being 'oversized' on the reader.

Other common indicators that the writer is a thin person and is unconsciously picturing a thin Y/N when writing their fic:

Saying that the canon character lifted the reader character off the ground completely (especially if the canon character is someone non-athletic, like Spencer Reid)

Saying that the canon character's hands looked large or are large in comparison to parts of the reader character's body - especially her upper arms or her waist (saying that the canon character 'dwarfs' her in any way is just... big ick)

Belly bulge kink! I have so many issues with this one anyway, but if you can see a cock through someone's stomach, no matter how gigantic that cock is, it means that person has very, very little stomach fat. So again - you are picturing a skinny person (borderline anorexic) when writing this (in general, this kink is not a glorification of big cocks, which my blog is all about, it's a glorification of low body fat and thin stomachs, so... big ick)

(Among many others)

The presence of skinny people in fanfics in itself is not fatphobic.

Though I do believe that skinny people dominate way too many spaces as it is, and as I have said before, I always write my fics with fat readers in mind first and let skinny people enjoy my fics as a perk.

If you do any of these ^^^ things, and you don't put a blatant warning on your fics that they feature a skinny/thin reader character, then you are being fatphobic. A plus sized fanfiction enjoyer shouldn't have to get halfway through your supposedly inclusive fic and be jumpscared by the implicit implication of thinness.

Especially if is a romantic fic - they are being fed the idea that only thin people can be loved by their favourite character in a world where they have already been told a thousand times that their fatness is not desirable. Fics should be not only an escape for us, but a place for us to be loved for our bodies despite our supposed flaws. (Which is why I have so many fics featuring plus sized reader characters, and I continually preach ways to avoid fatphobia in fics for those who might not know about their unconscious biases when writing.)

But as usual - skinny people get all up in arms when fatphobia is even mentioned, because they think that it's an attack on them somehow. sigh

[autogyne-redacted]

The politics of attraction (attractiveness, desirability) are so fucking messy and I wish I'd seen more good writing explicitly talking about it.

Like how your body is gonna get treated is such a fucked, brutal lottery (and the extent to which there are true winners is dubious).

The pressures on us to try perform and change ourselves are fucked.

The selfie economy and more generally the kinds of social positions and interactions that are available to us or not based off our bodies: fucked.

But what the hell do we do about it?

/

There's a current that says we lean hard into non-conformity. Refuse to change ourselves in response to societal pressure. Lean into the positions that are reviled. But this is deeply naive and frankly plays out terribly for trans folks.

We can't separate our desires from societal pressures. (There is no prediscursive self). A hard line refusal to be influenced by societal pressure means refusing our own desires, and for lots of us is a recipe to be disphoric and miserable (and be unable to honestly engage with those feelings without feeling shame). Non-conformity as highest ideal only works for ppl who are already seen as solidly attractive and given the grace to transgress some norms with no more than minor sanctions.

I do fundamentally support bodymod. I don't think there's a moral failing in following your desires or going beyond that to reach a less shitty position within society.

.

There's the positivity approach. And lots of it just straightforwardly makes sense. Of course it's good to celebrate that which society detests, to push past shame, to try and create our own spaces that don't operate off of society's valuations, where we can.

But we can only ever find partial shelters from society's influence. And trying to make this into a full answer goes poorly. Inverting aesthetic hierarchies sucks (cuz aesthetic hierarchies suck). Simulating desires to meet (counter)cultural expectations.

Mostly i think partial answers is the best we can do. We can be kind with each other and support ppl who aren't trying to compete in the aesthetic ratrace. We can be a little louder about our desires when the go against the grain and a little quieter when they align with it, maybe.

Idk, I'm curious if y'all have thoughts. Often when this shit comes up there's a subtext of "ppl should obviously be doing better" but idk what ppl imagine that looking like.

<3<3<3

[tenpintsofsundrop]

The fact that Derek and Penelope didn't end up together in the canon is such a (fatphobic) crime against humanity.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again - if she was a typically thin woman who had that much sexual tension and chemistry with him, they would have had a canon relationship.

On top of the fact that I am rewatching the episode where Penelope gets shot, and she meets the guy in a flirty coffee shop interaction, she is feeling insecure about it because she's not "that girl" who usually just gets a guy's phone number (it's so relatable it hurts) and Morgan warns her that if the guy is "too perfect", then she should be weary.

And the whole time, Morgan is painted like an asshole for doubting that someone is attracted to Penelope (when it comes off partially as jealousy from him?) but then he turns out to be right. It turns out that a very stereotypically attractive man asking Penelope on a date has negative motives.

So what is the message behind this storyline? A really attractive man asking a clever, skilled, witty, attractive fat woman on a date is doing so out of malice. It can't just be because he's attracted to her naturally.

I fucking hate it so much.

[ef-1]

Hi I saw that you talked in the past about this, but can someone explain to me why are people so focused on Daniels weight? Because I never saw this topic about any other driver. Like at this point you could make a thread of people talking about it, Demon H*ll being the latest.

I literally could not tell you why. I mean this earnestly. Outside f1 horrid history of pushing drivers into eating disorders, the fixation on Daniel specifically is baffling. If I really had to press myself for an answer I can only hazard that this long-standing cruel, persistent scrutiny of Daniel's weight is due to his skeletal structure which he's already addressed a million times before. Daniel has wide set hips. He's had trouble fitting into the cockpit in the past, due to the structure of his hips, as early as Toro Rosso and as recently as McLaren. It generated a big fiasco in 2013 where these fucking sickos even asked Newey and the RB engineers about it. They made a 23 year old address the media to assure them that he can't starve his hips away despite trying

And the other sickening one

+

That's literally my only guess. That these callous horrible fucking people obsessing over his weight because in their eyes his wide hips = unfit/ free reign to talk about his weight.

It's even more sickening because they said that about him LAST YEAR. WHILE HE WAS RACING. TO HIS FACE. WHILE HE ADMITTED TO NOT BE ABLE TO KEEP HIS WEIGHT AT A HEALTHY LEVEL OR GAIN ANY WEIGHT. Since then Christian Horner has mentioned Daniel's dramatic weight loss on three different fuckjng occasions

and these sick senile fucks like Damon Hill still won't stop.

[angorwhosebabyisthis]

there are a lot of reasons i'm really, really impressed by how well sdmi portrayed the dynamic of an abusive relationship with pericles and ricky, and one of the big ones is how accurately they show what it looks like when abuse starts to escalate.

the extent of that is yet another thing that'll take a longpost of its own to go into, because it spans like.... the entire arc of their relationship in the show. but one thing that stands out to me in particular is their portrayal of the massive red flag that is a partner trotting out bigoted behavior against a group you're in. especially insults, and especially directed right at you.

this show has a LOT of fatphobia, jesus christ does it ever, and there are certainly some fatphobic tropes going on with ricky; but i've always been surprised and impressed by how many of the nastier ones they avoided, especially considering his role in the story and what his arc is about.

he is a major, nuanced character whose trauma is treated with full weight and sincerity. it's implied that his body type changed the way it did due to the trauma he went through when he was younger, and the ensuing mental illness, which is a pretty realistic experience for a lot of people. the things that happen to him are played for full tragedy and horror, when it would have been so, so easy for them to make light of it because Tee Hee Fat Guy and Tee Hee Male Abuse Victims Funnee. despite how his whole thing involves corporate greed, they don't go the route of portraying him as Gluttonous and Hedonistic; if anything he is very obviously not using all that money for even basic physical self-care, and the only time we ever see him eating anything it's when he's drinking wine grape juice with pericles. which, like, there's issues to be unpacked with that too, but jesus christ it's an improvement over what usually happens with characters like him.

he's a fat queer man who isn't degendered or made feminine in a mocking and/or predatory way. (there's nothing wrong with feminine fat queer men and they need more non-shitty rep, please and thank you god, but there is a lot of nastiness in the tropes they're often used for in mainstream media, and one of those tropes is when people consider 'fat queer man' and 'masc' to be oxymorons.) no one ever once calls him ugly; if anything multiple people in his life think he's attractive and desirable, for better or for worse. no one body-shames him. and no one ever mentions his weight.

except pericles.

'The Horrible Herd' and 'The Devouring' are two halves of a whole here, re: escalation of abuse. 'Devouring' is when the abuser goes full mask off and shit hits the fan; 'Horrible Herd' is the wind-up before the punch. HH is when ricky realizes things are getting Bad and he needs to put a stop to this now, and Devouring shows what happens when he tries, because by the point where it's gotten bad enough to give him a wakeup call it's already too late. it's how abusive relationships tend to go, and it's chillingly accurate.

and what's one of the things pericles says during Horrible Herd when that punch is winding up? something no one's ever said before now, including him? 'you pudding-faced dummkopf.'

he body-shames him. he insults his weight, and that's a major turning point. bigotry is something that's often there to some degree from the start, but not always, because some abusers are good at hiding things like that until they're confident they've got you where they want you. the message with ricky and pericles is loud and clear: when this happens, the walls are dripping blood. get out.

(if you can. and be careful when you try.)

when this show is good, it is really, truly good. god damn.

[akajustmerry]

what annoys me about that ariana video that's going around is, yes her general message is helpful, but culturally its so frustrating to see a thin white woman be given the grace to say that. woc who are fat and disabled have historically been pioneers of body neutrality, yet it takes a thin conventionally attractive white woman preaching 'don't discuss body' basics for people to listen. obviously this is cultural and systemic and is not the fault of ariana or any one person, but fuck it makes me angry to see women who were/are weaponised as the beauty standard for the rest of us be given so much power over the conversation criticising that. I want to SCREAM at the way people are acting like ariana saying she's the healthiest she's ever been while looking the way she does is somehow really brave and not something that will ultimately be used against anyone who doesn't look like her. I'm not saying that thin/able people don't suffer from body hegemony or can't speak out about their experiences. however, if you only want to promote body neutrality when it's coming from cis able bodied thin and otherwise conventionally attractive people, then you're actually just co-opting the language of body neutrality to continue perpetuating anti-fatness, racism and ableism.

[uncanny-tranny]

If anybody wants to know what the perfect depiction of recovery looks like in media, I think you should look no further than Anton Ego in Ratatouille. Weight gain is such a beautiful part of recovery, yet there are few pieces of media willing to depict weight gain as something joyful or even neutral. Weight gain is a beautiful thing in recovery. We need to start depicting it as so.

[ineffectualdemon]

Jesus fucking Christ

TW FOR WEIGHT LOSE FUCKERY AND DISORDERED EATING AND BAD DOCTORS ANF FATPHOBIA

Had a phone conversation with a doctor who is definitely not one my usual ones. They're from a partner in the medical group and not my actual office that I normally see

And like.

She wasn't horrible but I was talking specifically about my disordered eating issues + my autism + my physical limitations and how they comboine to make it difficult for me to eat regularly and to eat as healthily as I want to (because I want to eat healthier! I feel better when I can!)

I specifically mentioned I have a lot of mental health issues and trauma around food and this is really hard for me to talk about and that I'm almost crying

And she still brought up my fucking BMI

And I shut that down immediately by reminding her I have mental health issues around food and eating is difficult for me so I can't focus on weight loss. I want to focus on eating better and getting more active for my health without prioritising weight loss specifically because that is very triggering for the mental health issues I already told her about

Anyway I ended that phone call hating myself for ever eating so good job doctor! You made me feel like shit

Anyway I got a referral to a dietician. I don't know if that's good in these circumstances or bad but it doesn't feel good rn

[politicalprocrastinator]

Can fans who haven't seen the classic series tell me whether you got a proper sense of who Mel was from this special? Cos my girl was not just an it wiz she was also extremely nuts in a very entertaining way

[dyslexic-dyspraxic]

I wish exercise wasn't forced upon us, wasn't associated with fatphobic rhetoric, wasn't associated with ableist rhetoric

Because it is fun, empowering and just good for you, it helps me manage my ADHD, improve my mood, help alleviate my asthma by making my lungs stronger and makes more capable in physical activities

But for much of my life I hated it for the same reason so many others do, because as someone who was less able bodied it was a hell to be forced to move my body and be expected to keep up with my peers, it was just another opportunity to be bullied, and then when I finally wasn't being forced to do it, there was this narrative that people should be doing it to lose weight and that if I was gonna do it I should be doing it at a level that is completely unrealistic, society only portrayed activity at levels that take years to build up to for able bodied people, and on people who have the ideal athletic frame

It took me years to build up my fitness level to what it is now and I started with exercise which would be considered incredibly basic and why bother to the gym bros as the media portrays them

But then I got into fitness and I saw the complexity and diversity

The person next to me might be doing freestanding handstands or struggling with the "basics", they might be fat or having rippling lean muscles, the people using the equipment might be using the max weight one handed or using both hands on the min weight and nobody cares

The only time I specifically remember individuals is when I see them regularly (like the personal trainer who shifts I keep coming in on or the regular who seems to know everybody and exercises at the same time as me on Wednesdays), everyone else might as well be background characters and that anonymity is freeing but I would never have picked up on it by society's representation of the gym