#charlie Morningstar critique

[dnpanimationstudioclone]

My Charlie using aggressive kindness at Angel’s work! Gives his studio a nice gift basket with stuff like lotions, lubricant, intimacy wipes, Ozzie-brand condoms, dankee candles, etc! She’s familiar with good stuff to have for the bedroom thanks to tips from her uncle Oz😉💖 I imagine he probably helped her the most with Sex-Ed.

I can def see my Charlie want to get acquainted with Angel’s work friends, build a good proper connection/understanding with his work life(even though she does not like Val)

She’s also got a second basket with stuff like pest killer, insecticide, bug zappers etc(got help from Niff!) that’s def the more aggressive gift. For….pest problems(Val). I imagine she’d give that one after meeting Val & realizing how much he sucks(atleast surface level/doesn’t realize the rest of the stuff yet & will def be going feral).

I think a gift basket would’ve been atleast a good attempt to try “aggressive kindness” since the canon attempts….didnt go so well(Charlie being inconsiderate of how she was on set & Angel’s feelings & not able to be aggressive enough to go after Val after Angel made her leave/didn’t seem to try to bring it up after because of how she was being prior/causing the fire by accident & also didn’t want her to get hurt, even after everything) ngl there’s a chance she could’ve taken Vaggie’s advice about practicing her authority the wrong way rather than just didn't listen(with how we’ve seen how the higher ups of Hell behaved, maybe Charlie was trying to emulate their kinda authority/makes u wonder what Lilith be like too) would explain why she intitally thinks it’s “so mean”. I actually have more about this. Charlie’s True Intentions

What do u think? What kinda stuff could u see go good for a gift basket? I’d love to know💖

[ms-cartoon]

Charlie genuinley annoyed me this ep.

I get that she means well and didn't intend for anything bad to happen, but she was a real burden during her appearance here. I also understand that she has such high positivity about all the sinners in hell, but she needs to get a clue. She may be naive, but she's not blind. Actually, it's not really her that I'm annoyed with but more or less how she's written so far.

She tried to keep Angel from leaving the hotel because she wanted him to focus more on her redemption exercises and looking back on it, she was kind of coming off as selfish here. Uh, ma'am? Did it ever occur to you that these people have (after)lives to live apart from staying at your hotel? If Alastor is allowed to participate in his radio shows, then Angel can do his job as a pornstar. You do not need him to stick around that badly. He lives there! Your exercises can be saved at a later date.

That was her first step in being a nuisance, but then she makes it worse by showing up on Val's set unannounced. She really should've thought this through a little bit. Idk what she thought talking with Val would do for Angel. And when Angel frantically tells her to leave, she hardly bats an eye at this. Like he's obviously panicking as if he's going to get in trouble and she doesn't get a clue at this? Like I said- she's naive, but she's not BLIND!

Plus, you'd think that miss "I don't take shit from other demons" Would have a little bit more backbone in her when she's disrespected in the slightest. She literally gets harassed at work and she doesn't give Val a new one for it. Girl, if you don't rock his shit-!

Also, while it probably wouldn't have solved anything for Angel, maybe if Charlie just stood to the side and waited for the porn scene to end instead of talking to the film staff while they were in the middle of a shoot, things wouldn't have escalated to a literal fire hazard. And then she starts suggesting to Val of different scenarios for the porno they're filming?? Like- Girl, can you not--!

I'm sorry! I know this is coming off as ranting and not critiquing, but pondering about all this irritates me and I can't think straight when typing.

[sleeplessdreamer14]

tell me I’m not the only one who’s bugged by this flaw in Charlie’s design…

with her jacket on, her undershirt looks long enough to pass her bottom like a miniskirt. but then she takes it off and we can see her suspenders and her sleeves are rolled up and they’ve transformed from dark red to black??

I cannot be the only one who’s peeved by this, right?

[peachi-blossom]

How can these stans love Charlie Morningstar and not loathe her?! How can they approve of her overly positive attitude and spinelessness?! She is literally the embodiment of a stereotypical woman who is passive, spineless, unintelligent, and emotionally irrational because Vivienne Medrano herself is a massive misogynist!

I choose this image of Rena from Higurashi because that's how I'm feeling right now.

[katshelluvacritic]

Charlie Morningstar is probably one of the worst written characters I’ve seen in the series.

(This one’s gonna be a long one…)

Ok…. So I watched all six episodes and to be honest I’m pretty much pissed off by this character specifically. This might be more of a rant rather than a critique, so I do understand that not everything I say in this will end up being as constructive exactly but I genuinely need to get this off my chest, especially since she is a character I’ve specifically and recently been hyper fixating on before the show released…

(Side note: I realized the post was very long so, to have it be easier to read I added titles for each section! Hope this helps)

!!WARNING FOR SPOILERS FOR THE SERIES BTW!!

> Charlie lacks the qualities of being a main character.

Now besides the piss poor excuse of an introduction for her (and the rest of the cast) in the main series, I honestly question why exactly Charlie specifically is the “protagonist” in the first place (and I say protagonist with the biggest of quotes here, you’ll see why).

In the first episode of the series “overture”, we don’t really see much of her character, most of the time we’re shown screen time of Vicky (a nickname I made for v*ggie since I’m not gonna call her by her genitalia thank you) trying to make an ad for the hotel and even when we do get the screen time of her, she’s barely doing anything other than hearing viv’s self insert- I mean- Adam just go on and on about whatever he’s talking about.

And when Charlie does go on to explain her plan to redeem sinners she’s just interrupted and then stands there when they start singing hell is forever, she doesn’t “go off” like the hazbin Twitter says, she just stands there and then tries to say something only to get interrupted again and again and then gets pushed out of the meeting room before going back to the hotel to see it’s spread across in the news that the next extermination happens in 6 months.

Now although one might argue “Well didn’t Charlie at one point said in the show that giving orders is so mean?” Well yes but again, Charlie is literally the princess of pride ring, you would think that since her parents are literally rulers of pride, they would’ve probably teach her how to stand on her two feat, especially if your RUNNING A HOTEL. And the thing is, she has stood up and did so in episode 6 and the goddamn pilot (which is at this point is probably canon due to Charlie calling it the hazbin hotel instead of happy hotel), even going as far as to fight Katie Killjoy because she thought it was stupid.

Not only that but the episodes after overture, her screen time lessens until somewhat in 5 and 6. She doesn’t really appear that much in the between these episodes to the point where she feels like a supporting character rather than a protagonist. And when she does get screen time, she’s either forgettable at best and infuriating at worst.

> Charlie’s character is poorly written and just dumb.

In the episodes past overture, she’s literally rock solid stupid that I literally screamed in real life multiple times “you’re a fucking idiot” because of how frustrated I was from what she was doing, In episode 2 she literally trusted sir pentious to go to her hotel even though he almost destroyed her place and in episode 6 thought it was a hunky dory idea to let a person who literally exploded buildings to take charge of giving her employees a “good time”. Yes it could be played off as her being naive but if she’s that naive of a person then maybe she shouldn’t be a boss of a hotel to rehabilitate sinners.

Heck, in episode 4, Charlie gets pissed off and turns into her demon form because val literally started hurting Angel when he followed him into the room (and rightfully so) but when angel tells her to leave and drags her out of the studio, she’s just in her normal form and fucks off??? Reminder she’s literally the princess of hell! She could beat the shit out of val if she wants to, why did she just fucked off after angel had her leave?

“But Kat, what if something bad happens to angel if valentino dies?” Like what? If it was explained that if an overlord dies then the sinners that made a deal with them die too or something like that then yeah, that would make sense but we don’t know that whether or not that’s the case, if anything angel could be just fine after Valentino dies but we don’t know that.

And even when Charlie had the opportunity to go out there and apologize to him herself after he stormed out of the hotel, she and Vicky just send Husk to do it. And I have to ask, WHY? HUSK didn’t know what was happening to Angel earlier. HUSK wasn’t at the porn studio that Angel was working at. CHARLIE WAS….

“Well Kat, what if Charlie was scared about making things worse?” Fair enough, but again sending Husk is a stupid idea, I feel like it would’ve AT LEAST made sense if she sent Vicky out there. Because Charlie didn’t know if husk could fight (if you could even call it that, all he did was throw cards at people), BUT SHE KNEW VICKY COULD THOUGH. But nah we gotta do it for the ship right?

And then Charlie had the gull to be crying that angel forgave her after she fucked up, like shut the fuck up… it’s like if viv looked at a bunch of chars that had the optimistic care-free ‘ish personality and thought that meant making her as pathetic as a baby crying that they didn’t get a lollipop from their mommy.

Like I’m gonna be honest with you, it’s literally gone to a point where I think Orel Puppington (aka the 11 yo Christian kid who worships Jesus and gets harmful lessons from other Christians) makes a better Charlie Morningstar than the Charlie Morningstar herself!

And that thought is justified when he tried to go help people in Sinville, “Kat he ended up turning into a pimp at the end of the episode” yeah but AT LEAST HE TRIED TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING! Which leads me to another question….

> How is Charlie gonna redeem sinners exactly???

Like honestly, I’m serous with this one. How is Charlie gonna redeem these guys?

I ask this because in the series, she barely does ANYTHING to help these guys, she and the rest of the characters just sit around and then do an activity that is the equivalent of something you would do in kindergarten except it’s with ADULTS.

I don’t know about you but If your idea of helping people is doing just that and nothing else, then the only thing the people around you are gonna get is them being annoyed at first and eventually walking out with thinking your not helping them but rather just treating them like a baby who doesn’t know anything, and the only thing your gonna get personally is nothing because you did dick all.

Like other than that she pretty much just whines about sinners not going to her hotel and oh gee I wonder why, it’s not like your not doing anything to help these sinners not committing sins anymore, oh definitely not, your absolutely being helpful.

“Oh but Kat! Charlie was born in hell, how can she know how to help people? She’s not from the human world so, she wouldn’t exactly know how to help these people!” I would tell you to look at the world building for the series and it’s spin off but that’s a whole other can of beans that I don’t wanna cover today and this is already getting to long, so y’know what? We’ll go with that.

If Charlie didn’t know how to help people and was trying to figure out what she can do to help sinners get better, then why didn’t she just ask her employees for suggestions? Y’know, the other sinners who were from the human world and had experiences while they were alive and such?

Yeah, I get that not all of their advice would be exactly good or healthy (since they’re sinners who’ve done many bad things after all) BUT ITS AT LEAST SOMETHING FOR FUCKS SAKE!!!

She literally does nothing, she just expects you to immediately get better after some improvisations or whatever other activities she does and once you’ve done one nice thing then boom you’re close to redemption.

> Conclusion.

Charlie Morningstar is (like I said in the beginning) probably one of the worst characters in the hazbin hotel series, she at best a stereotype of the “everything is sunshines and rainbows” character tropes and at worst is a pathetic excuse of a main character and is nothing but a rotten shell of her character from the pilot.

I would go on about how her design’s also bad but I’m sure millions of people have already said the same issues and I’ve already posted my redesign of her before the show dropped.

I might plan on posting a rewrite of her or maybe explain my problems with another character or episode but I don’t know.

But until then, I’ll see y’all later!

[redjoey1992]

Maybe it's just me, but Hazbin Hotel under Viv feels more like an "on paper" show. She never should've fired those other writers who make the pilot possible.

[pedanticat]

Oh for Pete sake! Why is stuff like this never explained IN THE SHOW?!?!

[crooked-wasteland]

How do you feel about Charlie as a character?

When someone brings up Charlie to me, three scenes immediately come to mind:

Charlie whining that being direct and using her status and responsibility to influence change is "mean".

When she's frantically panicking over how the hotel is not "working", but instead of actually specifying the events in the series that brought the cast together, she only mentions the things she herself suggested, despite her own ideas having been useless at best and actively detrimental to the people in her care at worst.

When she vents to Alastor about Vaggie not telling Charlie about being an angel, she doesn't once look at the situation from Vaggie's perspective of being no different than any other sinner, she demands to know what about her is untrustworthy. Entirely self absorbed.

Medrano has stated that she sees both Vaggie and Charlie as self-insert characters. Putting aside the Freudian self-cest implications, I feel that Medrano's self righteousness and superficial idea of kindness are on full display in Charlie's character. As a person, Charlie is insufferable. She inserts herself in ways people ask her not to, she has a surface level form of empathy, and she exists in a world where her intention supercedes the consequences of her actions. She is nothing but kind and understanding to everyone around her, a perpetual victim of people snubbing her, but she perseveres nonetheless.

Charlie's line in particular about Vaggie encouraging her to take control of a situation being "mean" is clearly how Medrano hand waves her own responsibility to the overall culture of her fandom. To try and regulate anything would be her being "mean", when in reality it is a way of not taking responsibility for the consequences of her own behavior and encouraging the hostility within the fandom.

Furthermore, the fact that both Charlie and Vaggie are two qualities of a single person explains why neither of them have any nuance. It's why Charlie wants to "help" the Sinners in Hell despite them generally accepting and being content with their lives, revelling in their "sins". It's why Charlie's skit for Angel and Pentious has dogmatic language about the "right" way to live one's life. And it's why Vaggie is never explored as being an exterminator who once was so successful as an executioner that she was considered the best of the best, and yet when faced with a black and white ethical concept of killing a child, she immediately has a change of heart.

There is no internal conflict or nuance for either of these characters because, ultimately, both are self righteous caricatures of the director who is broadcasting how much of a "good" person she thinks she is. That she knows what is best for everyone because she just wants to help, regardless of anyone else's desires or situations.

Small edit to point out this is a theme in her works. It directly parallels Blitz in Truth Seekers telling Moxxie that he is "hard" on him because he knows that Moxxie can be "better". And instead of just talking to Moxxie or encouraging him to keep growing, he instead uses manipulation and abuse to "persuade" Moxxie to change. Just like how Charlie imposes her own desires on others and then just keeps "suggesting" that they change. Because, really, Charlie and Blitz know what's the best for everyone around them.

It's why I am vehemently opposed to the idea that anything about Hazbin Hotel is a criticism of Christianity. Because in the end, Charlie is an evangelist spreading her teachings and Good Word to the sinners to save their souls, whether they like it or not.

It's not hard to see how Medrano sees herself in these qualities, and the passive aggressive self righteousness is thinly veiled under a smile and "good intentions".

[almacambiondaughterofsaleos]

The Biggest Problem With Hazbin Hotel's Rehabilitation Mentality Is Trying To Make All Sinners Victims Instead Of Owning Up To Their Own Sins

I think the biggest problem with Hazbin Hotel rehabilitation mentality is that they focus in on how sinners are victim of circumstances rather than owning up to their problems and changing themselves. I think the biggest thing with this series is the fact that they think the problem is society instead of someone's own issues how they got into hell.

One of the first indications of this bs is making it out that Lucifer and Lilith were just misunderstood dreamers were against a strict ignoring that they caused sin in the world and caused help humanity's downfall. But the narrative ignores that fact and tries to treat them as victims of heaven, so we can have Lucifer as a misunderstood sad boy instead of how in the Bible he was jealous of humanity and wanted to bring it down with him due to God's love for them. A misunderstood sad boy wouldn't do this type of shit and Vivziepop selling it a load of it.

I know this is going to be controversial but I think Angel Dust is hindered as a character but not focusing on what got him into hell. And it wasn't just the drugs and sex, because he did kill people and some of them probably didn't end up in hell. So just imagine him being sent to heaven and his former victims recognized him for his crimes and until now showed repentance. However, the narrative even then doesn't focus on that fact but the idea he's a total victim and doesn't show part of his way to redemption is get his life back together and admit he's done shit where he wasn't the victim but the victimizer. One could say he was put through that life, but then again show his sister is in heaven and that she chose a life of virtue and made it. So, he has no excuse of his dad or brother getting himself into hell except himself and he needs to work on it. Even if he's a victim to Valentino, he still is a victimizer in someone else's eyes who recognizes him decades ago.

And I am also going to say this the Extermination is used as a way to have all of hell be turned into pitied victims that you forget a lot of them are in hell for a reason. And even more they are doing antics that got them probably into hell like murder, sex, and other types of depravity. While not all sinners are on the same level, the exterminations as a whole just i used to make you forget that they are there for a reason and erase that there is a reason they weren't given a chance into heaven. Seriously, Emily herself called them innocent souls when in any other scene they are far from innocent and the reason why Adam is depicted as a one note villain is because they can't fathom the idea that maybe the Extermination could be used to cull the worst sinners or something.

I think the biggest problem with Hazbin Hotel's every sinner is really a victim it comes ironically counter to finding redemption. A show which Vivziepop says she inspires from but she completely misses the point is Bojack. She says she's watched it but the biggest point of the show just because you are the victim doesn't give you an excuse to act like a total jackass to others and not own up to your mistakes. The problem is Habzin Hotel never lets anyone own up because they have to play victims, especially any character favored by Vivziepop. Redemption doesn't come from seeing yourself as a victim, but recognizing your own mistakes and how to reform from them. And frankly I didn't see Angel Dust want to reform from his mistakes, but just want a home away from Val. The problem is that Hazbin Hotel is about enforcing victimhood instead of owning up that you did bad things and need to change. An excuse for your behavior is still not fully an excuse and you need to own up to your actions.

[celtrist]

I really want to see a more fucked up version of Charlie in canon. Like, okay, I am a die-hard for sweet bubbly girls in media. But I always see how some people make Charlie actually, oh I dunno... demonic? And it's so refreshing for her type of character. I could honestly see her having low empathy (and we kinda see this with how she handled Angel's situation or even Vaggie's nervousness about taking control on an activity). An exploration of that trait (if it was intended) would be interesting to see for a protagonist, especially when her main goal is about helping others. I would love to see her actually have a level of difficulty in understanding others' feelings from the other residents, sinners, and even her father.

But give her a fucked up side. Not a "she gets more power when she's angey uwu", but a "oh, she's a little fucked in the head". It would give so much to her character that she just doesn't have.

@/murmurmurena (don't wanna bother them so slash there we go) has some fun ideas with Charlie. I highly encourage people to check their stuff out! So many fun dark ideas with her character while also still keeping to her canon personality pretty well! Personally, I think Charlie being a bit more naive to her own messed up traits would work best but her also being aware of these traits can make for some interesting character for her.

THIS FIC, "A Game Between You and I". RIGHT HERE WITH THE FIRST CHAPTER. A bit of spoil for the fic here: but I love how they handled Charlie’s absolute ignorance as to why the idea of Russian roulette is horrifying to Angel Dust. It doesn't feel like her being intentionally malicious or aware that she's the odd man out here. This is also a pretty old fic going by only the pilot, but the point still stands that it was such a fun take for her character!

Charlie is one of my favorite characters in the show in part of the POTENTIAL she could have as being the most bubbly sweetheart character while also being the most messed up character in the show. I can't say I have strong confidence with the show's writing and fully expect them to stick with Charlie being the "nice girl but oh no, don't get her angry or she gets scarwy". Which isn't bad for a character mind you, there's just so much more potential to Charlie outside of that trope, especially when you get into the theories of her either being a doll, Roo's biological daughter, or what have you. And for the MAIN CHARACTER of the show, it would be not only interesting but also bring the spotlight back to her.

There's really no question that the side characters steal the show, particularly all the male characters. If I'm honest, Charlie does not feel like she gets a lot of love from the show itself when she's supposed to be the main character. She feels far more flat compared to the rest of the characters (again, the male cast in this "female-lead" show has more depth than most of the female cast currently. I wouldn't be pointing this tidbit concerning the genders of characters if it weren't for the fact Viv defended Helluva's lack of development with their female cast by saying "Hazbin is a female-lead show and Helluva is a male-lead" and Hazbin ended up with it not feeling female lead (to me) and the male cast just completely stealing the show. I don't normally care about gender stuff, especially since I do personally lean interest towards male characters. But using one show as a defense for poor development of the female characters, and then that show not really holding up with no very interesting well-developed feeling female characters irritates me. It's just very clear that these shows don't seem to care much about the female cast :/)

If you like how Charlie is written that's totally fine. PERSONALLY, I just think they're missing so much opportunity with her character by just making her the standard female character type. I honestly don't have a lot of faith they'll actually do something with Charlie's character though. She's a pretty static character in S1 being the same from start to end. Not changing or learning anything to create any development. What does the end of season Charlie do that start of season Charlie wouldn't do? Fight back? Because we see with the pilot (which is the “first episode”) that Charlie does fight people if pushed like with Katie Killjoy and even Valentino. Static characters can work in media depending on the show or their role. But Charlie is the MC of a show about “bettering one's self”. So to have her as a static with not a lot of strong dilemmas for herself (like we see with Angel Husk Al and even Vox) seems silly. Plus, considering Hazbin is telling a whole story and it's not a fun episodic thing, characters are expected to grow on some level. Or else, what was the point of their hero's journey?

[ms-cartoon]

I. Am. So. Sick. Of. This. Fandom.

Seriously, how are these folks immediately gonna assume the op is homophobic because of this??? They already know Vaggie's a lesbian!! They know she's a girl. This is literally just an au fanart with FICTIONAL characters! Y'all act like it's the most abnormal thing for people to gender-bend characters.

[blossomthepinkbunny]

Charlie as an underdeveloped character

One thing I was genuinely dissapointed by when watching Hazbin Hotel was that they never cared to dive into Charlie's Morality more.

I feel like a lot of people can agree that Charlie felt very flat/sidelined in a show she was supposed to be the main character of and I think that that's because they ran out of Character Moments for her. Her Backstory is pretty much just infodumped at the start so there's nothing you can really explore there (except for her relationship with her parents ig but they only really brought that up and resolved it in one episode). Alastor has the mystery behind him of what his goals really are, Angel Dust has his arc about standing up to his abuser, Vaggie has her dramatic backstory reveal thing and Sir pentious gets focus as the one real guest at the hotel and with his goal to be redeemed.

Charlie really has no conflict at all, which is weird since the whole plot is that her idea is relentlessly mocked and never succeeds until the end. But she doesn't have a personal conflict. All the issues she faces come from the ignorance of the people around her who don't support her, but never from who she is. She never has to change. They try to hint at this with her being possibly invasive and not respecting boundaries in the Angel Dust and Valentino episode. But the episode doesn't focus on her and Angel as they talk it out and she realizes how she might have to change as well (from how I remember it). It focuses on Husk and Angel's relationship instead.

I feel like the easiest route they could've taken for her character was that of a moral dilemma. Charlie believes in second chances and being able to change demons and her opposite is Adam, who doesn't think demons should be redeemed and should just be killed instead. But it's never specified if Charlie truly believes everyone deserves a second chance or if there are restrictions to that. Adam sings a song in the first episode and explaines his reasoning for why he believes demons shouldn't be saved, which is that they had their chance to be good and didn't choose it and now they can't expect another one (I guess the real reason is that he's just an asshole who doesn't care but that's because Vivzepop can't write Villains so I'll just pretend like that's his real reason).

The problem is that Adam is presented as fully in the wrong and I just don't agree with that. I'm not saying he's right with killing random demons of course but the show never takes the time to consider that sometimes people go to hell because they are actually terrible and have done inexcusable things. Like yeah, someone who had an addicition or a mental health problem while they were alive obviously doesn't deserve eternal suffering without any chance for redeemability, but we know that those aren't the only people that go to hell (in the pilot it's literally confirmed that real life criminals like Jeffrey Dahmer are also down there).

The show blatanly shows us characters like Valentino who are shown to do irredeemable things and be purely evil.

My question is just if Charlie would also look at someone like Valentino and say: "Yeah they deserve to be saved and get a second chance". She obviously thinks Valentino sucks, which we see in the Episode were she meets him.

So like, what would she have done if in the second episode someone like him stood at their door and wanted to be redeemed instead of Sir Pentious. Does she draw a line? Or would she have really heard him out? Her morality with this "everybody deserves a second chance" attitude is so underexplored even though it would have been the perfect place to develop her more. If they had confronted her with an actually tough situation, where she is presented with a truly terrible person, they could've had two interesting ways to take her character.

She could've accepted the person and with that she'd have taken her role a fully 'good' saviour for the demons. Someone who is truly without judgement, or atleast believes that there is good in everyone that just has to be brought out. Which would've also given room to think about if people like that are even inherently good, if they can 'excuse' the actions of terrible people and still want to help them. This would have made her a very extreme character in her believes, but something coherent and definitive is actually something Charlie desperately needs for her characterization.

The other way would've had her reject the person and with that she would have to face the idea that maybe Adam isn't fully wrong. In that situation she would have found herself in a similar position to the Angels in heaven, where she basically is the one deciding over what's acceptable and what isn't. This could lead to her having a moral dilemma. Is she even a good person if she's deciding what's moral and what isn't? Can she just be okay with making exceptions to her idea to protect her people? Does she even want to view EVERY demon as her family? Or does she think there are some demons that maybe deserve death?

I'm just really dissapointed that the show takes such an interesting idea and such a difficult topic and then just does nothing with it. What we view as bad and good and which people we judge harder than others will always depend on social norms and the situation. It's a topic with no real right and wrong answer because there are so many things to consider. But this moral grey conflict that is literally one of the MAIN CONFLICTS in Hazbin Hotel is so incredibly underwritten, that it's not even funny.

Instead of acknowledging the difficulty of the subject Hazbin does what it does best and takes the easy route with seemingly clear right and wrong sides. This is especially stupid, since morally grey characters are supposed to be the point of the show. Like there are these demons who have done bad things and who aren't perfect, but that doesn't make them bad people. Its about revealing that a person has layers (which the writing doesn't). This is also a big point in Helluva Boss, where characters like Blitzø or Stolas who mess up repeatedly, are supposed to be shown as still having interests, aspirations, and good things to them.

The easy route which is taken constantly in both shows however makes it so that Charlie is completely in the right and anyone who criticises her is one of the evil people who try to ruin her plan, just like Adam. Who's also such a straw man for anyone who even dares to bring any objection to Charlies ideas, because everyone who does is apparently a hypocrite who just doesn't understand her and would rather side with genocide (I wonder were Vivzepop takes her inspiration from).

Charlies writing was just really dissapointing with almost never any reflection being done on her part. She doesn't have really striking moments, discussions or ideas to her in a show she's supposed to lead. That's just an issue that comes with Vivzepop never really putting as much work into her female characters, even tough they would desperately need it.

I know that only the first season is out so far, but I highly doubt thay they'll bring up a discussion like this in s2. Especially since Adam is dead now and the Angels will probably try to work more with the demons, after Sir Pentious' redemtion and the reveal of the exterminations to them. Also the Vees, Lillith and Alastor will be more of focus from what we can assume by the ending scenes.

I just don’t like that Viv can take interesting conflicts and write them to be completely one-dimensional and boring.

[starlight-bread-blog]

How is this a real screenshot. Charlie fucking Morningstar defending murder and cannibalism.

[wishful-thinking64]

One Hell of an Unpopular Opinion #04

The reason behind the Exterminations should've stayed to prevent Sinners from overpopulating the Pride Ring and I don't like how Hazbin Hotel portrays Adam as being in the wrong for hating Sinners.

_________

The whole, "We kill Sinners for our entertainment," reasoning from Adam and Lute as well as, "I approved of the Exterminations to avoid Hell's Sinners from starting an uprising," reasoning from Sera is so stupid. Specifically, Sera's reason. Because logically approving of the Exterminations would only lead to more and more Sinners wanting to start an uprising with each passing Extermination. Adam and Lute's reasoning has to be the way it is so that the show writers can make it seem like Charlie's in the right when the show gives us reason to believe that she's actively wrong. For example, Angel Dust was born in New York City and into a Mafia family likely somewhere around the years 1912 - 1915 as he's stated to have died in his young to mid 30s in the year 1947 due to a drug overdose. Angel Dust was a mobster for most if not all of his life but he hasn't shown or stated that he feels any remorse or guilt for what he did back then. The only thing he feels guilty for is for his past self having signed that contract with Valentino which is totally valid however making a soul contract with Valentino isn't the reason why he's in Hell. Angel Dust is in Hell for being a murderer, a drug trafficker, a drug attic, a smuggler, and for likely having committed several other money related crimes. I swear, people hear or see the word Mafia and automatically think of death when the majority of their crimes are motivated by currency. Like, its still not good but its not just senseless murder either. The point is, we haven't seen anything about Angel Dust truly wanting to change. Yeah, there was that scene in episode #06 where Angel turns down Cherri's offer to do drugs but that doesn't suddenly mean he's no longer a drug attic for turning down ONE offer. Most of the Sinners we see or know of in Hell are fucking horrendous people. Alastor was and still is a serial killing cannibal because he can. Let me repeat. He WAS and STILL IS a SERIAL KILLING CANNIBAL because he CAN! There is an entire place in the Pride Ring known as the Cannibal Colony (in the show it got changed to Cannibal Town but I've been calling it Cannibal Colony for 4 years now and I do not plan on stopping), Martha's in Hell which makes sense considering she and her entire family were actual Devil worshipers, Loopty and Lipton experimented and killed the poor, and Valentino is a rapist. We still don't know enough about most of what the HH's cast did when they were alive which is why I think Sir Pentious ultimately getting into Heaven was a load of BS. We don't even know why he ended up in Hell in the first place but he tries to help his "friends" once and dies in the process and that's enough to get him redeemed???

Seriously, what did he do to deserve damnation? Also, I know Viv probably doesn't have Cain or Able as that would give Adam an understandable, even justifiable, reason for despising Sinners. His first and oldest son, Cain, is LITERALLY the FIRST SINNER. For what? For killing his younger brother, Able, by slicing his throat with a knife or sharp object in the same manner Able did when sacrificing his lambs. Although, I've also heard that Cain killed Able by bludgeoning him to death with a stone by repeatedly bashing it into Able's skull. Either way, if anyone deserves to hate Sinners the MOST then it's Adam & Eve without a doubt.

[redjoey1992]

Wow, I LOVE the setup of this Hazbin Hotel AU! Having Emily being the one to set up the hotel is much better than the original.

Plus, making Charlie Morningstar, the evil princess of Hell who loves the extermination and is the one leading the exterminations, is very cool. I could picture her overthrowing her father and ruling over Hell. I had a similar thought in mind. I wanted to combine Charlie's and Alastor's character ls into one where Charlie is the evil princess of Hell, and she also makes shady deals with everyone.

Who here wants to read this AU?

[locustonlioden-blog]

Vivziepop stated in a Q and A that the purpose of Charlie’s fight with Katie in the pilot was to show the audience that Charlie isn’t unambiguously pure despite how self-righteous she appears to be. She is still capable of being pushed over the line and releasing all her outrage like anyone else:

“I did see some people making comments about how, even though she is this great character, she still throws down with Katie and also has a few moments where she curses. That was something that I did want to at least allude to, because while she is a very genuine character in her goals and attitude, she was also raised here in hell so she's not 100% pure. She knows pretty well what curses are and how to protect herself. She's got like a scrappy side when she has to and I wanted to kind of allude to that with that. That's why we had her fight Katie, because while Vaggie is really protective of her, she still can make mistakes in her own way and kind of snap and get into that.”

Why did this change. I'm so sad