#but the het relationship will still be the default

[upwards-descent]

I happily put myself in a rather specific bubble to like. Maintain mental health, happiness, surrounding myself with people either like me or who support me unconditionally.

And that shit made me forget straight people are the majority.

And I keep remembering that whenever I think about the male x player romances in Baldur's Gate 3 lmao

[chireikiden]

Might be a pretty basic take by the standards of more seasoned yuri fans, but it's my perspective as someone who's mostly read yuri in a Touhou context (though a lot of it), and exclusively manga from the Japanese fans as opposed to i.e. written fics.

Touhou yuri (using it very broadly here to describe any kind of wlw shipping present) is, across the board, in a pool of fan literature going back twenty years, remarkably good at taking the lesbian part for granted. Not counting outright het content or works that simply don't bring it up, I have only very vague memories of a character's lesbian orientation being either denied or even brought to question (even in the cliche "But we're both girls!" manner, which even as a somewhat dead horse trope you might still expect to see, given plenty of doujin writing isn't exactly highbrow). You might be able to read "Does she like girls?" between the lines in the usual question of "Does she like me?" if you really want to, but the way it's still basically treated as default is fun to me. There's a reason Touhou basically has honorary yuri status on e.g. Dynasty Reader, even the stories with effectively zero shipping in them. You might not notice if you haven't browsed the site, but it's literally nothing but yuri + Touhou. We even got upload rights just so we could post more Touhou.

(Of course, Touhou being yuri city is part of the reason any hint of straight romance gets a really strong kneejerk reaction from people, including me. But that's also because the lack of usable male characters makes that shipping inherently hamfisted, up to and including literally making up cardboard villager OCs. Basically the only positive example I can remember off the top of my head is Hisona's An Old Poem for the Cuckoo Bird depicting Youki with a 1000-year-old mostly joking crush on Nue, which after some chin-scratching I decided I liked alright. And Hisona of course has plenty of yuri cred to cover for it.)

But although taken for granted, most Touhou yuri is one or more of: a.) On a "blushing maidens thinking about holding hands" level in its approach to romance, b.) Only depicting the starting moments of a relationship, at best - usually just pining, c.) Only off-handedly teasing, basically to acknowledge the ship is there, d.) Showing a very close and loving relationship but leaving the romance part subtextual, even if thinly veiled.

While those are all fine - some of my favorite artists like e.g. Ashiyama undeniably fall under d.) - it means that artists who depict more established couples, and couples that get depicted as more established, stand out. I love when a story is very blunt about two characters, whether the focus is actually on them or not, already being an item. Be it due to a difference in target demographic or what, many of these works seem to have a slight lean towards being more raunchy/horny even when not outright R-18, but I don't actually mind that too much when it does happen - as long as they're fun and raunchy, as opposed to only raunchy or, god forbid, unfun in raunchy ways.

I like how Moyazou depicts Mokou and Keine as basically-married. I like how Atoki depicts YuuParu or SakiYachi after drawing like twenty books of them (each). I like when Kawayabug depicts Tojiko as Miko's beleaguered wife. But the example of the day is obviously risui (of Ladies of Scarlet Devil Mansion), who you might have guessed inspired this ramble. Funnily enough, in LoSDM she seems to have walked back Meiling and Sakuya's relationship coincidentally at the same time she toned down the content to fit SCoOW's guidelines, compared to her usual works that have MeiSaku at a much more established and mutual stage.

But the point stands that it's really fun to see LoSDM almost rub it in your face from the very start - from Meiling's dream to every other conversation she has - that everyone in it is unapologetically and openly lesbian, assumes everyone else to be a lesbian, and doesn't hesitate to talk about it like a (romcom idiot) adult.

Also, risui draw lady very good

[bthump]

what draws you to homosexual relationships in fiction as opposed to heterosexual ones? I noticed I prefer them as well but I don’t really know why. Or maybe it’s just in the media I like the homosexual relationships are written to be much more compelling, I don’t know. This isn’t hate against het relationships btw I support all sexualities

Probably a million different reasons honestly. Off the top of my head, some of my personal reasons:

-- I'm bi but more interested in gay relationships in my personal life, so my fictional interests reflect my irl interests.

-- Removes misogyny as a factor both within the romantic dynamic and, if m/m, the depiction.

-- Relatedly, I hate how 99% of hetero relationships in media have a built in lowkey unacknowledged d/s vibe due to that misogyny. Woman passive man active, woman pursued man pursues, woman weak man strong, woman soft man hard, woman fucked man fuck, woman object man subject, woman prize man winner, woman small man big, woman puts in work and money to make herself attractive man gets to live at his default state, woman desirable for looks man desirable for personality/money/skill, woman financially dependent on man, etc etc etc. Turns me off.

-- Like at least when that's the dynamic in m/m or f/f it's deliberately someone's kink and a gender norm is being subverted by one of the characters.

-- Gay relationships being more equal is something I've seen cited a lot, rightly or not, but it isn't one of my reasons lol, I like unequal relationships in fiction. That said, gender not being a factor in that inequality is definitely a draw for me.

-- Subtext is more engaging than most textual romances, and gay relationships are more likely to be subtext while het is more likely to be textual.

-- Gay sex (m/m and f/f) turns me on, straight sex rarely does.

-- Specific to m/m, but men in fiction are more likely to have compelling, complicated, deep relationships with each other than they are with women.

-- I enjoy gender nonconformity which is much more plentiful in gay ships and fiction than straight media.

-- Heterosexuality is oversaturated in media and I'm exhausted and irritated by its ubiquitousness.

-- As someone who grew up in the 90s, the existence of casually gay popular media still blows my mind lol, the shine has not come even close to wearing off. Heterosexual media just can't compete with that.

Anyway yeah, those are a few of my reasons, and maybe they align with some of yours as well.

Ultimately though I don't think it matters and it shouldn't be something you feel the need to justify imo. Enjoy whatever you enjoy for whatever reason, or no reason at all. But if you enjoy soul searching, then maybe this list is a decent starting point.

[marley-manson]

001 | Xena

Thank you! 💖

Favorite character:

Xena!! Everything I could possibly want in a female character, and a fandom that largely enjoys it rather than downplaying it.

I loooove that the writers went into the show (Xena, not her first appearance on Hercules probs) essentially writing her as a male archetype almost no concessions to the fact that she's played by Lucy Lawless other than pronouns and some het. She's cold and stoic - it's not until the first season finale that she even really displays a raw emotion other than mid-fight glee, including when her own mother draws a sword on her, and when she has to kill a man she loves to some extent. She's the strongest, toughest, most competent person in any room at all times, and everyone knows it and defers to her, absolutely including men. Early on there are a few scenes where she's hit on and punches dudes, but that actually goes away pretty quick as she just tends to command a certain sense of respect. It's an ideal female power fantasy - not to survive patriarchal violence, but to live without even having to spare a thought for it.

She's complex and nuanced and the narrative is very interested in exploring her as a three dimensional character.

She's formerly evil and still revels in violence, and it's amazing. She's often on the verge of going too dark again and needing to be pulled back from the edge, and she snaps in a few episodes including one where she attempts to murder Gabrielle, pre-meditated and all. She's framed like a horror movie monster in a few episodes, something I always love to see in a protagonist.

And on the flip side, she's fun! She steadily loosens up the more time she spends with Gabrielle doing good, and she can be very playful at times, and it's awesome to see in contrast to the first season.

I'll never be over her and idt there'll ever be another female character who can truly compare. Xena is a product of the tone of the show, and that tone is dead now.

Least Favorite character:

Borias, mainly for his appearance in The Debt as the only man who has ever had physical power over Xena - while her legs were broken - and for clitblocking Lao Ma.

5 Favorite ships (canon or non-canon):

Xena/Gabrielle (and Mel/Janice who counts under this umbrella) Gabrielle/Aphrodite Xena/Ares Xena/Lao Ma Xena/Callisto

Character I find most attractive:

Gabrielle. I mean just look at her abs

Character I would marry:

Gabrielle 💖

Character I would be best friends with:

Gabrielle lmao.

a random thought:

Xena has the best clipshows of any show I've ever seen. Almost always worth watching for the absolutely delightful framing devices.

An unpopular opinion:

I get shallow entertainment out of the scenes where Xena seduces men in the later seasons lol. Like firstly, I love that the show really pointedly toes a line and she never actually sleeps with them past like season 2, because she's in a relationship with Gabrielle. I also love that they show Gabrielle being annoyed or jealous if she gets into it. The show is blatantly playing both sides and trying to appeal to het viewers as well, but very deliberate in never contradicting X/G and I can appreciate that.

But also I love how dominant Xena almost always is, both in bed and in how she just interacts with men, and how it's always framed as something she wants/how she behaves by default rather than something she does for the dudes, who are generally more ambivalent about her topping. Like, ultimately it's a fantasy for subby male viewers, but it doesn't feel like it so it's enjoyable to me.

This is popular with the het fans lol, but they're the minority so it still counts.

my canon OTP:

Xena/Gabrielle, and yes it absolutely counts as canon for the purposes of this question.

Non-canon OTP:

Xena/Ares

most badass character:

Do I have to say it after my ode to her up there?

pairing I am not a fan of:

Gabrielle/Joxer, Gabrielle/Virgil, Gabrielle/any dude. Xena/Borias in terms of canon relationships.

character I feel the writers screwed up (in one way or another):

Najara!!!! I absolutely adored her in her first episode, she's an amazing foil to Xena. She would've been a perfect recurring villain after Callisto, with her moral ambiguity, her deliberate choice to kill vs Xena's bloodlust, her more grandiose ideals vs Xena's more do good when its in front of you philosophy, etc.

Then her second episode just eviscerates her character and turns her into a caricature of a ~crazy girl~ and it's awful. The actress probably wasn't available for a recurring role, but like, she could've been written off more respectfully, or never given a second episode at all to assassinate her character. Boo.

favourite friendship:

Gabrielle and Aphrodite, I think. They're very cute together. Though shout out to Gabrielle and Ephiny, since I did find it quite touching to see her again in season 6.

character I want to adopt or be adopted by:

None, I don't really think of characters this way.

ask meme

[olderthannetfic]

https://olderthannetfic.tumblr.com/post/757030754384560129/i-know-its-petty-but-my-eyes-always-roll-out-of#notes

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, it's not about "Calling a relationship with bi women "lesbian" while I also have my issues calling a bi WlW relationship by default a "lesbian" relationship, and then treating the individuals as lesbians despite one or both being bisexuals. We have so many labels, yet despite all that we still only got straight and gay/lesbian for relationships? Though it shouldn't surprise me, with the rampant biphobia in queer spaces has been known for ages, and the heated bi erasure in historical situations. And any "non-monosexual" configurations. Especially the erasure in some form or other when bisexuals get into a relationship, you get to be labelled het or gay, deal with it. Maybe it would be nice to have a word that more clearly presents something as involving bisexuality. But I digress. What I was talking about is taking female characters who've shown romantic love to male characters, and the fandom deciding "No, lesbian." and plastering everything with this character being a lesbian, lesbian flags, constantly referring to the character as lesbian in every fandom space. Lesbian here lesbian there, lesbian lesbian lesbian. That paired with thinly veiled biphobic comments or outrage when the characters get depicted as bisexual, or people alluding to the female characters male attraction.

Again, it's the pattern that's the problem. If it only was some times, then that'd be one thing, but it's basically fandom default to call any female character a lesbian if the occasion allows. Even female characters who've shown no romantic or sexual interest at all, most will default to lesbian and then seethe if anyone dares apply a different label like bi/pan or asexual.

There are so many canon examples, the West is easier so TLOK, She-Ra, TOH, RWBY, any of the canon WlW ships there's a big change someone is just gonna not just call the relationship lesbian, but also call the characters themselves lesbian, even the canon bisexuals. Also some Eastern stuff like BNHA, or when reading some danmei, the female characters get the lesbian stamp, as if the only option for a yaoi/BL/Danmei female is to become lesbian. SVSSS would be an example for that, where I've seen every ex-harem member be labelled a lesbian in some form or other, and any indication of viewing them as bi/pan is viewed as lesbian erasure or the likes, or in MDZS the girl who gets saved by the the main lead, MianMian? despite ending up with a husband and daughter gets called lesbian, and even claimed to be canonically so, unless that was the Red big sister character who never showed any attraction in any direction. (I think it's both actually.)

--

[quetzalpapalotl]

In regard to IDW1!Sentinel Prime’s repulsion towards romance, I legit thought his hatred of such concepts was meant to make him homophobic or along the lines of “ugh gay people”. Was there an instance of him also hating heterosexual romance or at least all kinds as well? The more I learn about Sentinel through this blog, the more I realize I’ve been missing out on a lot of things (and the more I am going to simp for him) 💦

Well, he doesn't go out of his way to say he thinks het relationships are gross too. It's normal that his comments would reminds us of homophobia as that's a sort of equivalent in our society, that's probably what's evoking, and I do call him homophobic as a joke but homophobia is ultimately a human concept. Sentinel is not homophobic because Cybertron as a society forgot the concept of gender, everyone is male by default, the only Cybertronian women are people like Arcee who are old enough to remember when women were a thing or the lugnodes who developed a concept of gender after traveling the galaxy. Sentinel says "only the terminally sentimental had sparkmates" he's not talking about homosexual relationships, he's talking about romance itself, which is mostly homosexual due to the society they live in.

And okay, yeah, Sentinel turns out to be quite old, he would have known about women, but still, it would be really weird that his problem with romance turned out to be that it isn't straight! That makes no sense! Not only he doesn't make any comments to indicate that's the issue, but Transformers don't have any of the material conditions that led to the development of homophobia in our societies. They're not human. They wouldn't have a concept of "straight" or "gay", if they were to put social constrains on attraction or were to taxonomize it, it would be based on something that has actual bearing in their society like class or alt mode.

Indeed, Skids flirts with Firestar even when he's still getting used to use she/her pronouns, people from the colonies, who never forgot about gender, get involved in both same and different gender relationships with no issue. And the colonies retain some of the bigotries of old Cybertron. There really isn't anything in the text to support the idea that homophobia would even be a concept for these people.

So if homophobia isn't the issue, then what the fuck is Sentinel's problem?

(Mtmte #56-57)

These are the instances where Sentinel displays... amatophobia, I guess. But is this just one example of a societal trend or does Sentinel have some very radical ideas? I think it's a bit of both.

This just doesn't sound like the kind of idea one develops in a vacuum, especially with how the language resembles real-world homphobia, I think it is meant to indicate that there used to be some sort of bigotry against romance.

Cybertronian society is just not amatonormative the way ours are, Brainstorm mentions that having a conjunx is rare and that's no surpsise. These people live so long, it's quite the commitment to attach yourself to someone for that lifespan. Though, the fact that both Skids and Getaway casually flirt with Firestar right after meeting her makes me think that casual romantic dalliances among Cybertronians are a thing. It doesn't expect monogamy or the kind of prioritizing our society demands. But that's just my headcanon and me projecting a bit, anyway.

A conjunx ceremony only requires the two people to be married and is carried out in private, but the fact that Rewind has Chromedome listed as his conjunx endura and this grants him the ability to make medical decisions for an unconscious Rewind shows that you can legally register a conjunx status and this grants you special rights much like a human marriage. Now, this is under Optimus' rule who is far more chill and maybe things were different under Sentinel.

Speaking of, here's a panel of officer Orion Pax during Zeta's time asking Tappet if the guy that was killed by the police was his conjunx and that it's totally okay if that's the case because they're totally not bigots anymore (OP #1)

More evidence for amatophobia being a thing when Sentinel was Prime (and given that this is Barber instead of JRo, two writers making reference to it make it a more solid piece of lore). But when exactly did conjunx endura gained legal status instead of being just a two-people arragement? It's hard to say, it could have been under Optimus, Zeta, maybe it was a thing under Sentinel but frowned upon, maybe it had always been a thing but it got outlawed under Nominus or Sentinel before getting restored under Zeta or Orion. Since the colonies do have a concept of conjunx endura, meaning it predates Nova's rule, my guess is that this amatophobia was a later development and that conjunxes had legal status before that being removed and later restored.

That being said, Sentinel does seem... radical in his beliefs. Look how he says in his time people had "peers and colleagues, associates", that sounds kinda impersonal, he doesn't use a word like friends. Surely, even if people thought getting involved in romance was weird, the average Cybertronian wouldn't have anything against the concept of friends. Sentinel kinda sounds like those super homophobic guys who are disgusted at any level of male intimacy because that's gay. I think Sentinel is particulary opposite to interpersonal relationships and an extreme example of the normal attitude.

That still doesn't answer why is he like this tho. If I had to answer what purpose does this bigotry serve, I think it has to do with how Cybertron developed this culture of "you're all cogs in the machine" for the benefit of the ruling classes. You should serve your purpose of making Cybertron great, it's an offense that you'd choose to give your devotion to a single, common Cybertronian instead of like, the planet or a Prime (Sentinel has not problem fanboying over Onyx Prime). Look at all the things Sentinel complains about, not just conjunxes doing PDA, he has a kinda fascist idea of what Cybertron should be, nice and orderly with a disregard for differences. Transformers don't have sexual reproduction or nuclear families, so romance doesn't serve The Powers That Be in any way and is just a display of individualism.

[mtreebeardiles]

Gaah idk how to articulate this well but I think more games need to consider platonic aspects of male/female relationships instead of falling into the same old shit of “men and women can’t be friends.”

Games like Mass Effect and Cyberpunk, for example, treat most m/f interactions as hetero-by-default, regardless of the player’s actions and choices, with the only real exceptions being when the NPC’s sexuality is canonically confirmed (ex, Judy). So even if your masc V does his best to avoid having any romantic/sexual dialogue with Panam, the game treats it as if you were pursuing this route regardless. You can say no during the pivotal Scene, of course, but it sucks that masc V’s can’t be treated similarly to femme V’s as a matter of course, that you never **really** have a choice to dissuade Panam from trying it because the game just… does not give you the opportunity to pursue something platonic

It’s an interesting contrast to Kerry’s romance, where iirc, either V has to instigate it directly rather than respond to something Kerry does. That first kiss is initiated by V, the boat scene is initiated by V. The game has no issue assuming the hetero relationship, but the queer one for masc V has plenty of opportunities to abandon ship (no pun intended) even though the PC instigates the actions each time.

Masc V’s who choose the least flirty options with Panam will still get the option of sex in a basilisk while literally neurologically linked to Panam (talk about an awkward refusal eh), but masc V’s who kiss Kerry on the balcony of Dark Matter will not receive any overt flirting from Kerry during boat drinks.

Now I’m not saying the Panam route is correct and should’ve been applied to the gay/bi romance, I’m merely commenting on the **assumptions** being made. Ideally both het and gay relationships in games with romance options will have clear, robust platonic options as well.

This is pretty stark in ME, too, when playing a masc Shepard. Your options in ME1, for example, are to be Mean or risk the two romance options available to mshep if you interact with Ashley or Liara at all, which also means letting both or either woman down later — because the game doesn’t consider that 1) a man can be platonic with women and 2) that man may also be gay. Gay msheps get nothing until ME3, while het (or assumed het, since bisexual msheps are still limited to het relationships until 3) Shepards and queer fsheps have options in all three games (and this is kinda reinforced in some corners of the fandom, isn’t it? Particularly those who denigrate mshep players).

Obviously ME is a lot older, but Cyberpunk isn’t that old in comparison. It just kinda sucks, ya know, that we haven’t moved past this ingrained idea of “men and women can’t be friends, and PC’s will be assumed heteronormative even after asserting their queerness.” 😔

[earlgreytea68]

A Note on Olivia's Speech -- Kinda

OMG this is so much babbling but I wrote it all down in case it might be interesting to anyone else who feels vast amounts of guilt over writing about guys all the time??????

When I was a younger writer, I used to write a lot of het. That's what I wrote all through my teenage years and into my early twenties, just tons of traditional male/female romance novels, which honestly was mostly what I read through those years, too (aside from the classics that I was forced to read for my degree in English, which was exactly why I majored in English lol). Even when I started writing fanfiction, which wasn't until my mid-twenties, I wrote het.

But then at one point I started writing m/m love stories, and I never stopped. And I worry a lot about that, like, is this betraying internalized misogyny on my part? Why am I writing about men (and often white men), who get so many of the stories anyway? I should write more about my actual gender identity, which is cisgender woman. But every time I did, it felt so weird and stilted to me. And my motto is that unless I'm writing for money I write makes me happy, so I kept writing m/m fic.

Once, years ago, I went to a presentation at an academic conference where they discussed the phenomenon of cisgender women writing m/m fic. I know this often gets characterized as just some kind of sexual kink, and I just don't think that's what's going on with me, and that presentation noted that cisgender men are the default, so to speak, in our society. And so characters with a cisgender male gender identity are allowed to be blank slates that can be absolutely anything you want. Whereas as soon as you make a character a cisgender female, suddenly there are all these societal pressures on that character. And that did resonate with me, that try as I might I couldn't just change the pronouns of the cisgender men I was writing and ta-da! They were cisgender women! Because there's just so much other baggage that comes with being a cisgender woman that they were freed from if they were cisgender men -- even if I resented that that was the case!

But I've been doing a lot of reading this past year, and not of romance novels, of quote-unquote "serious" novels (an adjective I strenuously do not agree with, as a writer of romance lol). I read Elif Batuman's books (both hilarious but both kind of fell apart about halfway through), I read Checkout 19 (which I pretty much hated), I read Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow (weird book), I read The Farewell Tour (which surprised me and I liked much more than I'd thought I would). Every one of these books had a cisgender female protagonist (or co-protagonist), and every one of these books had a major plot point where that protagonist has a terrible, unhealthy relationship with an obnoxious cisgender guy. Every. Single. Book. And sometimes it was more than one unhealthy relationship, and sometimes it was more than one female character within the book. Like, you're going along reading about these delightful and interesting adventures these fabulous women are having, then -- bam! they run up against some guy not nearly as interesting as they are and not deserving of their time and then they waste a bunch of their life (and the book) all hung up on him. And I was just like: It's the year 2023, and this is STILL what the female narrative looks like? This???? We can't tell other stories about women that don't revolve around what men do to them???

It's not that these books aren't critiquing that part of society (which I understand is still omnipresent all around us). All of the books are very conscious that the relationships are unhealthy and diminishing the woman (except maaaaybe the relationship in T&T&T, but that book also is really mean to its arguably asexual MC and basically implies that he'll never be of importance in his BFF's life because he doesn't want to have sex with her, so the book had other issues, tbh). Not a single one of those books actually, you know, has any apparent repercussions for the guy in question, who just seems to go on and live their life pretty carefree and the woman whose life they stomped all over is barely a second thought, to us the outside observer. And I'm sure that's also very true to how society works. But, all the same, it was striking to me that, even if critical, THIS WAS STILL EVERY WOMAN'S NARRATIVE. EVERY WOMAN'S NARRATIVE WAS ABOUT SELLING HERSELF SHORT FOR SOME GUY. Can we not imagine better for ourselves????

And so, Idk, I do try to put people of other genders in my m/m fics but when it comes to a character like Olivia, and thinking of what her happy ending looked like, I just could not make myself put her with a guy. And you might say: she could have gone with a woman! And yes! She could have! But I think I am craving female narratives that aren't about romantic and sexual love. Because every narrative I read about a woman is alllll about romantic and sexual love. The woman belittles herself to squeeze herself into the box of romantic and sexual love, cutting off all of the interesting parts of herself because she's been told THAT is the end-all-be-all. But I am a believer in all kinds of love, and how all of those kinds of love can give you a good and well-rounded life, and it's silly to pretend that there's only one type of love and that we should pursue it at all costs to our selves.

And then I think, well, gee, that's hypocritical of me, given that ALL I DO IS WRITE STORIES ABOUT ROMANTIC AND SEXUAL LOVE. But then it occurred to me that in writing them about two cisgender men, it does feel more like a narrative that needs to be told. Men get so many stories...but they don't often get THESE stories. They don't often get the love story. They don't often pursue their romantic love as if it will fulfill their destiny...because society tells men that their destiny has other shapes and sizes beyond who they sleep with. Maybe, I think, the world needs more narratives about guys who just love, unabashedly and deeply and fulfillingly, and THAT'S the narrative. That's the whole story. Just that. The way it so often is for women.

When I think about Olivia, and even as I sit and struggle my way with Megan in the Regency AU sequel, it's like...I want more for them than that. Like, for so long I grew up with exactly the expectation that Olivia talks about, that I needed to find a husband and that was the most important thing about me. And I watch the younger women I know still get that message. I've got a great career, went to good schools, do interesting stuff, and still a shocking number of people want to know why I'm single. What about everything else I can be????? I have great friends and a great family and I honestly like my life. Who can ask for more than that? Like, isn't the most amazing thing that could happen to Megan, especially in the Regency era, is just that she lives the life she wants??? And maybe that means she gets married and maybe it doesn't but it's cool either way and she has the freedom to choose it!

I don't mean to imply that I don't have internalized misogyny, because who knows lol. I also don't mean to imply that women shouldn't get married!!!! I have many cisgender female friends in very happy and healthy heterosexual relationships!!! It's awesome for them and it works for them and it's cool and I love them and the lives they have built for themselves. Lives come in all shapes and sizes, and that's great. But I finished yet another book with yet another female protagonist in yet another unhealthy relationship for the fifth time this year or whatever and I was just like, No wonder I gave Olivia that speech. No wonder I'm looking for another narrative.

[moongothic]

I LOVE your crocodad theory I'm an obsessed believer but did u ever get romantic vibes from crocodile & robin business relationship? Many people get lover vibes from them & I never understood why. They seem VERY strictly business/stab each other in the back relationship. (Plus crocodile is TERRIFYING).

I think Croco/Robin as a ship exists kind of like... out of circumstance? Kind of?

Quick disclaimer, I only got into OP in like 2008~ish at the age of 13, I can not comment what it as like being in the fandom before that because I wasn't there (and when OP began in 1997 I was like two whole years old). So whatever I say here doesn't come from like, a fandom veteran who knows the entire history of the OP fandom or anything. I'm just attempting to rub my braincells together here

Like in the year of our lord 2023 we have many wonderful Crocodile ships to classify as OTPs and NOTPs etc, but if we go back to like 2006 or so, long before the Summit War Saga was even a thing, try to think about what characters you would have shipped Crocodile with? Because for a long time, the only canon material Crocodile had appeared in was just the Alabasta Saga (+one brief cover story), and we don't really see Crocodile interact with that many characters during the story. Like. Really the only character Crocodile has multiple, extended interactions with aside from Luffy and Vivi is Robin. All the other characters he interacts with maybe once or twice for very brief scenes, so based on canon material alone, there isn't much for fuel for shipping purposes.

It really wasn't until Marineford when we finally started getting other characters to ship with Crocodile, mainly the Ever Loyal Daz who seems to be willing to follow Crocodile anywhere (romantic as fuck) and Doflamingo after he and Croc tried to kill each other twice at Marineford (people seem to love a tsundere Croc) And now with Cross Guild we also have Mihawk (and Buggy) as far as shipping options go. And of course there's MORE than just these ships, there's the more crack-leaning ships (like Dragodile and whatever you'd call the Cobra-ship) and some others (Jinbei, Whitebeard, Ivankov, Galdino, Luffy even) etc etc

The only difference is that Croco/Robin got to kind of be like, "the default Crocodile ship" for like 8 years without major competition. And because the ship has "history", even when new ships pop up the one that has been around the longest will still stick out. Not to mention, although we have options now, even those have very little canon material to actually work with when compared to Croco/Robin. Like Dofuwani exists because the two had like three whole pages worth of interactions, but compare that to the screentime Croc had with Robin? It's not even a competition

Not to mention, Croco/Robin is just. Like it's kind of the mandatory het ship. Like there aren't many straight options with canon material to work with, and there's gonna be people who really want to have a het ship with Crocodile if you know what I mean. But also, let's be real. There's a lot of straight women who're horny for Crocodile. Valid as fuck. And Croco/Robin could have like, a self-insert-y quality to it, like some people might be able to see themselves in Robin? Also valid. And that can apply to some straight men too, like I'm sure there's cishet men who look at Crocodile with that "god I wish that were me" energy, who love seeing Crocodile ship fanart with Robin, as they can project onto Crocodile etc. This is also valid. Point is that the ship appeals to cishets by simply being a het ship, but also it might make for an easy ship for a lot of straight people to project onto for one reason or another.

But to be fair, I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I think Croco/Robin has the potential to be a really interesting ship. Like they ARE the Baroque Works Boss Pair, literal partners in crime, the most powerful members of the secret criminal organization who run the whole operation, they worked together by themselves for four whole years, Crocodile protecting Robin by allowing her to hide under his wings. They were together, ready to take over an entire country and obtain a weapon of mass destruction And then Robin betrays him. And Crocodile admits he never trusted her to begin with.

Like on paper alone, this is great material for a juicy romance.

Especially now when we understand why Robin was on the run and why she feared being betrayed, and how looking back at Crocodile's reaction when Robin "reads" the Poneglyph for him, he genuinely seems a little sad about her betraying him (mystery trauma etc). This is a genuinely interesting character dynamic, like even without any romantic context I would love to see Crocodile and Robin meet again in the storyline and like, see what Crocodile thinks of Robin having joined the Strawhats vs what Robin thinks about Cross Guild, how the two might interact etc. They are interesting to me

Like personally, I agree, I don't think the two were actually ever romantically involved with each other (frankly I don't think Crocodile trusts anyone anymore enough to let them get close him like that, dude's been voluntarily celibate for like two decades lmao), their relationship was surely just business-only. And while the ship doesn't personally interest me (just kinda "meh" for me), I do understand why the ship appeals to others and why it's popular to this day

But yeah, I do think a lot of the reasons Croco/Robin is as popular as it is due to circumstance. It's been around the longest, it still arguably has the most canon material to work with, it appeals to lots of people. God knows shippers don't actually need the characters to like each other, otherwise people wouldn't be shipping Croc with Buggy as we speak

[winterrhayle]

im bored so im gonna spread my cress is a lesbian propoganda (i know this and believe it with my entire being, and my qualifications for this are : 1) i am a lesbian and 2) i know more than you)

cress spent her formative years alone in a satellite with extremely limited human interaction. for seven years.

therefore her idea of love and relationships will have entirely come from what she saw online, primarily in the form of net dramas

i would assume that these net dramas were mostly m/f couples, as marissa meyer doesn't address lgbt couples in this series at all so i think that in the tlc canon universe, heterosexuality is still viewed as the norm/default

throughout book 3 and 4, in cress' inner monologue you can hear how her views on relationships are generally very *unrealistic* cinematic romantic scenes with a man, you never really see her fantisizing about the more mundane parts of love, or the parts that could really happen in real life, which to me seems like shes more interested in relationships in theory but not the real thing

she pines over carswell thorne, a twenty year old man who is on the run with cinder. he is conventionally attractive (square-jaw, blue eyes, dimples etc etc) and he strikes me as the type of person you're supposed to think is attractive (theres nothing wrong with this but i have a point here i promise lol)

in other words he seems like the type of guy a closeted lesbian would force themself to 'like', as thats what they may think they're supposed to do, as that is what is 'expected'

at this point thorne is also a famous criminal, cress doesnt genuinely think (pre book 3) that she's going to meet him, so he's an unattainable man. and specifically 'liking' only unattainable men is a common part of the comp-het lesbian experience because it allows lesbians to assign feelings to men (and therefore feeling safe in the belief that they are straight) without having to worry about actually being in a relationship with that person

so when she actually meets thorne, her idolisation of him, as well as the power imbalance due to their age gap, already made me feel very critical of cresswell, and i think that all this ^^^^^^^ would make so much more sense for her character

in conclusion,

[hxhhasmysoul]

Sorry if I'm late for the ship ask game. Can I ask for these ships :

- Killua/Gon (my fav non canon ship from any shounen until now)

- Zuko/Sokka (my fav ship from ATLA, and they're also my top 5 fav characters from that series)

- Gojo/ Getou (sorry, I know you dislike those two, but I want to know your opinion on this ship. Also, they're my main reason to enter JJK fandom)

Thx if you want to answer

KilluGon

Absolutely ship it!

What made you ship it?

Canon, they're prone to these very romantic moments.

What are your favourite things about the ship?

How devoted they are to one another. They meet by accident and get entangled with each other so quickly. Killua follows Gon around during the exam, then Gon goes to save him and since then it becomes a duh for them that they do everything together. And then the trauma they both endure puts a strain on their bond and we see in real time how their relationship partially sours because they are too young and they don't know how to deal with the trauma and the stress. They make each other better and worse, and it just feels so real. It's just amazing.

Is there an unpopular opinion you have on your ship?

Idk how unpopular it really is but Gon isn't abnormally selfish, and he's not some villain in their relationship. They both contribute to it hurting them both. People getting hurt in relationships and still fighting for them and working on them is just so normal. I think also that people who dislike Gon or have no interest in him should no be shipping this. And Killua isn't a soft uwu boi. He's got a mean streak, is petty and prone to addiction, the soft boi outfits are a lie.

Zuko/Sokka

I don't ship it.

Why don’t you ship it?

In a previous ask reply I talked about how much I like MaiKo. And that's just my default ship for Zuko. The thing with Sokka is that his heterosexuality forces him to reconsider his misogyny, it's not ideal that this is what makes him start respecting women but honestly, who cares as long as he doesn't act like sad loser towards women in the end. And I'm saying this because having a sister who was his life line and his keeper for years after they lost their mother and were left behind by their father, did nothing to make him not a dick to women. And I think that if Sokka'd been gay, he'd've never changed. He'd've been one of those gays who look down at women. What if he lead Zuko there too? Like Azula makes Zuko's life quite awful, so some bigoted takes about women could've made him a misogynist and feel justified for it too.

What would have made you like it?

If they had more chemistry in canon. I just can't imagine an exciting dynamic between them to engage in shipping it? Nothing about this ship makes me think they could make each other better and that's a must for me to ship anything, really.

Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

I'm sorry but not really. I have barely seen this ship around because I don't go to the ATLA fandom, I don't think even fanart for it has ever crossed my dash. I mean it's marginally better than Zuko/Katara, because that one is just toxic heterosexuality the ship.

Gojo/ Getou

omg, not really.

Why don’t you ship it?

Like with HisoIllu, I accept that this is a logical ship and it's likely canon. But unlike HisoIllu, I actually actively can't stand it.

Generally, considering how toxic Gojou's personality is, I consider all his het ships misogyny and all his queer ship, queerphobia, even such absolutely toxic shit like SukuGo, even GoKen, even Gojou/Touji. I don't even like Touji but not even he deserves that. Apart from SatoSugu. Getou was a truly disgusting fascist adult and a condescending fuck as a teen, I think they can have each other.

Why I actively despise it, is because of the fandom. The fans of these two characters separately and those of this ship are some of the loudest and most obnoxious in this fandom. They will literally take panels, scenes or chapters that are about other characters and unleash some truly unhinged word vomit to make it seem like there's some connection to Gojou, Getou or their ship. Usually it's either complete misrepresentation of what is in the manga or pure untagged fanfiction. But the tags of other characters get regularly flooded by this kind of shit. They act as if they couldn't stand there being parts of the JJK fandom where their favs are not worshiped, where their ship is not the most important thing.

What would have made you like it?

Nothing. If it weren't for the fans, I would've been neutral about it. I wouldn't have cared about it because a thought about any dynamic between these two assholes leaves me completely cold. But I wouldn't've cringed when I saw it in the tags to the fics in my tags. I wouldn't've cringed writing the single Gojou involving scene I've ever written.

Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

No, I'm still sad that the most awful fans of these two and their ship haven't rage quit the fandom when Sukuna finally reduced Gojou to tolerable portions. Honestly it seems to be getting worse. Despite how liberally I block, it still often feels, even on some leaks days, that there's more about this ship in the JJK tags than of the actually relevant stuff.

[loser-female]

I think we really start to pay attention to what kind of message are regularly sent to het/bi women on the subject of love, romance etc.

And when I say "pay attention" I mean "also including leftist messages", otherwise the analysis will always be incomplete. And I think this is why no one relates to the "men are dangerous!" Kind of thing.

As I said in a previous post, (I don't really have the time to go search fo the things I'm saying) women are constantly sold four things:

- Romantic relationship are the best achievement one can have;

- Men have changed and "think the patriarchy also harm them";

- Choice is everything that matters;

- 50/50 means equality

And when I wrote "sold" I mean it. Check every "feminist" advice column on the subject: you are sold that you can be an happy housewife with no income, still pay for 50% of the bills because men now are taking on responsibility.

But this isn't the truth. It's not that being an housewife is bad because it's morally wrong, it's bad because by eliminating your financial gain you are making yourself dependent on someone else. And if something happens, divorce (not necessary abuse, I will expand later), death, house on fire etc you will have to return to a career you left 20 years before with no qualifications. And there is nothing that damages you in a work setting like having holes in a resume. I know because due to my disability I have many.

The 50/50 model, that seems to be the default right now, doesn't account for the earning disparity, chore and emotional labour disparity. It just doesn't. And women are kept poor because they have been told that they need to "pay their share" otherwise they are "useless gold diggers", but they don't earn enough to sustain paying 50/50 in the bills, mortgage or loans. And I've seen multiple "stay at home mums" still having to pay "their expenses" with absolutely no income.

Women lack financial education to make correct choices on the matter, and are sold this idea of equality that is in favour of men.

And it's not true that men are taking on responsibility. Some men are, some men always did and maybe the % of men taking at least some chores has been going up, I don't really know. But they also think "women's rights have gone too far". They exploit women's work in the home because "they earn more", so they feel entitled to being take care of and slack the parenting and homemaking, especially if you don't work or earn much less than him, so he needs to pay more.

This is actually how inequality works in 2023. It's not because "women are stupid" or because of romance novels or anyway. Choice feminism told them that men have changed. But they didn't, and at the same time no one addressed the economic disparity in the household, combined with the emotional labour and the homemaking time a woman spend.

I know it sucks to talk about money, no one wants to do that. But once you do the math you really understand how many lies choice feminism has sold, but more important we need to start taking account on the financial oppression of women. Women in the world have much less money than men, which in a capitalist society means less power.

And less power means not being able to leave an abusive situation, because you can't afford it.

Not only that, you have been told that "women are favoured in courts"(not true, men who ask custody even if they have evidence and convinctions of abuse they still get custody). You get told that "abuse is your fault", that "if you open the relationship or watch porn" everything will get over. And it's always someone else.

I know how trauma works and y'all should have heard the sad excuses I made when I contested the definition of trauma on the things that happened to me, not even DV or sexual related.

"but others have it worse!"

"I'm not sure if this actually happened"(it did, I even have proof)

"it's my fault, I am wrong".

And all the lingo. Scratch the surface of "domestic violence awareness" and you will find such excuses. That you know they are excuses, mind you, but you cannot cope with what really happened.

Instead of a thing that's structurally a problem, abuse is treated as something that "happens to others" sporadically, that has nothing to do with women's systematic oppression. And when it happens you cannot believe it, because it always happened to "someone else", not you. And men successfully weaponised "therapy language" to claim they are the ones being abused. And they get believed over any evidence that says otherwise, because guess what, men wrote the laws that men constantly complain about.

I don't have a cool ending, but really, this is what I noticed.

[oleanderedits]

You know what's really satisfying about the airplane extras? That sqh struggles to explain what being 'straight' means. Like, he literally wrote for an audience that was majority straight, probably incel heavy, terminally online dudes. He panders to the readers with millions of words worth of hetero leaning harem sex between one man and every woman that comes along.

But when he actually lands his ass in the world wrote, no one there understands what homophobia is. It's not a thing. Het is common pairing type but it's not the presumed default. So there is no sense of it being some sort of deviation from the norm to enter into same gender relationships.

Sqq is all up in his head with internalized homophobia, but when we get sqh's perspective and actually exam how the characters react to bingqiu, it's not the guy/guy that hangs most of them up. It's the whole student/teacher thing, or human/demon, or jealousy of one side or the other, or everyone being real damn sure that binghe was cracking open a cold one for five years, etc etc

Sqh wrote the most popular hetero-passing novel on zhongdian but even so, his fantasy world was still one where he didn't have to worry about being rejected by anyone about what gender he was attracted to. One where he would never have to have an awkward conversation about how two people of the same gender could love each other the same as men and women do and how that's okay, too, timmy. No fear over coming out because the concept of being closeted simply didn't exist.

And then he was made to explain the extremely foreign and confusing concept of being 'straight'. And he did it poorly. Which was very sexy of him.

[thetokentrans]

My relationship with wlw and mlm media is so.... Complicated. Or. Messy, may be a better word?

I spent the first twenty five years of my life thinking I was a wlw and became so entrenched in so much of the media that had wlw relationships, that it's STILL my default, even though I always felt like an outsider to the community in reality. For reasons that are obvious now, as I am a man and not in fact a wlw.

And now that I AM a mlm, I want to consume all of the mlm media!!! All of thr things!!! But now I feel like I'm not allowed. And I struggled with the idea of dating other mlm before I got into my current relationship, because I felt like I wasn't allowed. I actually narrowed what I was looking for from basically anyone, down to only bi/pan/other non-het, but still man attracted, cis women, ANY man-attracted trans woman, any man-attracted nonbinary person, any man-attracted trans man, and any bi/pan/non-gay, but still man-attracted, cis man, because I felt like dating a completely gay cis man or completely straight cis woman was like..... Taking advantage, or tricking them somehow.

And consuming mlm media just feels like I'm a pervy girl obsessed with yaoi. Like that awful, exclusionist stereotype that fetishizes mlm content, y'know?

I also just. Wish more mlm content had trans men. I'd be way more comfortable consuming mlm romance if one of the characters in the relationship looked a lot more like me.

I've been out, and identifying as a man for like 7 years. I pass pretty well as a man. But because of not having top surgery, and not having other anatomy ATTACHED to me, I still feel like an imposter.

But I felt like an imposter when I thought I was a woman, too! So what the fuck, brain.

I'm just. Tired of feeling like I don't belong anywhere.

[ashtraythief]

This is kinda a weird question, but isn’t it strange that we all love fan fiction and reading romantic plot lines in them and smut and all of this but our favorite show is Supernatural, which is just this story about platonic love? I think that really drew me to the show, I’ve never seen a show that focused so heavily on platonic love, not romantic, and made that the same focus of the entire show. It’s so lovely to see. Did that draw you into the show too?

Ah, yeah. Fandom and their endless quest to make everyone bang and/or fall in love (which I say lovingly, because so do I). And I don't think it's a weird question at all.

Honestly, I started watching Supernatural for very shallow reasons. It was recommend in the “ridiculously attractive people” category of a streaming site :D The pilot was way too scary for me though and so I quit again. But then a while later, I was watching Leverage on TNT and that ep was followed by Playthings. We left the TV running and I just… got sucked into it. Obviously, I had no idea about the context, only remembered the pilot vaguely, but boy did I fall in love immediately. With them, their relationship, the humor, the love and I went right back to the beginning and forced myself to put on my big girl pants and suffer through the scary eps (yes, yes, I know, they’re not that scary, I’m a wuss) and I was so gone on them, it was ridiculous. So yeah, it was the abscence of romance i guess, because I did fall in love with their relationship. In which Playthings truly is a magnificent gem even among the riches of season two.

I think if Sam and Dean’s relationship were romantic (if they were an unrelated het couple because let’s be real, nothing else would have been on network TV seventeen years ago), I think I would have been almost as enamored. Though I don’t know how to build a relationship like that without their past. It would have needed to be grown up together in some kind of way. I think their relationship would be compelling either way, but it is definitely more compelling for not being romantic. For one I think because romance is the default setting for the all-encompassing, soulmate-type relationships, and also because it’s just so unusual? Like even for one of those fated soulmate romance stories, Sam and Dean are still weirdly intense. They’re just more. Unhealthy, codependent, whatever you want to call it, but it makes for good stories. And I think that’s beautiful.

As for why we make wincest…. Well, the shallow reason is that they’re both beautiful men and it’s fun to imagine them bang. And sometimes you gotta be shallow. But also it just seems…. logical. They want to share everything (they do almost share everything, I mean consider what they know about each other’s sex lives and how they enable each other, like Dean wanting Sam to get laid to cheer him up or Sam wanting to drag Dean to a strip club to cheer him up, like they know sexy times can make you feel better and since they can’t provide that themselves they try to find ways to at least facilitate the happy-making sexy times), they are incredibly intimate anyway, there are many instance where they are jealous of romantic partners/friends and there is an exclusive claim on the other that’s rarely relinquished. Honestly, sex is probably the only facette of an intimate interpersonal relationship that’s not covered due to the whole being related thing, but fandoms love to break taboos and explore all sorts of boundaries in transformative works, and wincest is truly the most low hanging fruit of them all. It’s right there. Dancing out of reach. The show itself plays with it, both as jokes when people mistake them as a gay couple or when Sam and Dean use couple-coded language for each other, like when Dean asks if Sam wants a divorce when they’re fighting. They also made actual wincest shippers canon. Like, I was an innocent brofan of the show when I saw The Monster at the End of the Book, and bam, wincest in my brain, like a lightbulb went off and it took up residence there because it just made so much sense. In more serious themes, other characters comment on how special or twisted their relationship is, both friends and villains alike, they sell their soul for each other (or at least try to in Sam’s case), they do or attempt to do unspeakable things to save each other, they are canon soulmates, they have an extensive repertoire of love language and love acts to show their love for and knowledge of each other, they have a whole you-are-the-most-important-thing-ever thing that goes down in a fucking church, I mean, the show makes it abundantly clear that Sam and Dean are it for each other. And so I think that it’s very natural that people go with the wincest. Even though we have to take the incest hurdle, but hey, fantasy is for the dark, transgressive stuff, right? 

At the same time, it is refreshing that the show doesn’t center romance when almost all other shows do, and I think it’s one of the reasons people do enjoy it. And once you have the magic of Sam and Dean, whether you ship wincest or not, you don’t want them to mess with that so you want the non-romance thing to stay (unless you want a certain ship to go canon of course). In conclusion, wincest just makes sense, on every level really and we just creatively want to explore that in fun ways while keeping what’s great about canon in the show. The true art of shipping, I think.

[alarrytale]

“Harry refusing to label his sexuality and claiming that his friends and family know (peculiar thing to say if you're straight, even more peculiar thing to say if you want to keep your sexuality a secret).“

This! It doesn’t have anything to do with larry or you don’t need to be larrie at all but this - we still live in a very heteronormative world when being het is a default sexuality for everyone and so why one would say he’s open about his sexuality and refuse to label himself for public when you’re…straight? Or talking about having a journey with your sexuality and getting comfortable with it when at the end of the day you’re straight just like the most of the population on this planet? I believe that especially for H being open to his family and friends about this is one of the reasons why he’s not struggling that much when he has to perform straight-ness for public. Because he knows that when he comes home to his family and friends, he doesn’t have to hide anything nor his relationship.

There are days when I struggle the same way the anon struggles who wrote you about what if they will give up with their fight and will get married with a woman and have a proper children, you know, how long they can hold on until it will get weird for (especially) gp that they’re in their late 30’s and still no settling down - especially for H because gp doesn’t care that much about Louis and bbg is still on. And I guess this struggle will never go away until the day when they will CO but idk, Leo is in his 50’s and nobody found it weird he’s dating only models in their early 20’s like not weird in a way that they assume Leo’s just picky and that’s why he’s dating only young models but the reason is very different - he’s closeted gay.

Hi, anon!

Yes, everything he's saying about his sexuality shows that he's not straight. He knows who he is, his family and friends know who he is. The only people who doesn’t know is the public. It's not because he is private about it, it's because he's closeted and in a relationship with a fellow closeted man.

I don't think you should fear H and L marrying women and having kids with them. I think they'd rather stay single and date around like Leo does. I think they'd be miserable. They'd rather end their careers, say sayonara to us fans and come out.

About Leo, i think everyone who cares to know (and a good portion of people who don't care to know), knows he's closeted. Many of the people making fun of him only dating under 25s knows, but don't talk about the elephant in the room, because they don't want to out him or be the first one to speak.