#but i especially hate it about the hazbin discourse

[your-average-teenage-mess]

I do think that a lot of the culture around art criticism is just disguising categorical errors as insight. Like, what, hazbin hotel is garbage because it's just a bunch of exaggerated caricatures of horrible people that the audience is meant to stan, plastered over everything Tumblr likes to hyperfixate on in tv shows that weren't meant for them, except now it's done on purpose, in an attempt to make gay teenagers fawn over it? Buddy, I think you fundamentally misunderstood what they were doing if you think that's the part where they failed.

[imaginative-123]

Vivziepop glazers will basically downvote you and make excuses if you call out the sexist writing on how Viv writes her gay men, btw this is from r/CharacterRant

Edit: Minors do not interact, reblog or like my post bec I will block you.

I'm pretty sure if OP posted it in the main sub Hazbin Hotel, he might as well get downvoted for sure despite being an SA Victim. Viv Glazers surely never failed to disappoint me and I'm so glad Tumblr exist bc this is the website where you're allowed to rant about Viv and her shows. FUCK THIS SHIT MAN. Maybe Viv Glazers should learn that people have different perspectives and actual issues in her works. VIV is not a SAINT OR GOD you GLAZERS! GET THAT IN YOUR DAMN HEAD FUCK I HATE THIS FANBASE IT JUST MADE ME MAD.

Edit: About to go to sleep since I will finish my work tom my comment just got 16 upvotes I guess glazers must've realized I got a point LMAO.

Also the comments that got downvoted who point out the issues in Viv's writing got upvoted including OP's comment on Stolitz in regards to sexual coercion since there's also a person who denied the r@pe got upvoted before hours later got downvoted and it shocked me why people would upvote that comment that screams mental gymastics to defend a Ship that is made through sexual coercion that includes the class difference and power dynamic. The post from CharacterRant sub got people's opinions turn into 180 I guess bc they realized the other people like me who point out the issues and have concerns about the show might as well have a reason the shows that Viv write is not really good most especially when it's related to queer representation and SA.

Lastly the point of this post is to showcase the double standards in the fandom on how they view criticisms most especially when you apply that to stans/glazers who refused to see the actual criticisms and think it's mixed with the so called "haters" when I myself am a fan of Viv's work but also recently gotten more critical bc the roses tinted glass fell off when I start to analyze Viv's behavior online including her shows. So if you think this post is just whiny, egotistical and immature, sure tell me that, I'm not perfect and I accept that but that wouldn't changed my issues with the Standom's behavior that invalidates valid criticisms that critics like me have been voicing for years nor how the Fanbase has gotten even way more toxic over the discourse surrounding Viv's immature behavior including how divided the fanbase is, let's not forget the Standom's cultish behaviour to defend Vivziepop from any form of valid criticism, btw I also don't agree with other critics all the time but I can also see when there is criticism that is valid. So before anyone accuses critics for being "haters" maybe try and understand where we were coming from, the people became critics are also fan of Viv's work, if I was truly a hater then I wouldn't reblogged or like fanarts of the show including listening to musicals from Viv's work, just bc I'm a fan doesn't mean I have no right to voice my concerns over Viv including her work. Sometimes Stans should understand that fans can like the work but also criticize it.

Also the mods from CharacterRant removed the post from an SA Victim, damn for a sub that is supposed to make essays of your issues from any media, they would sure remove a post from an SA Victim's issues with Angel Dust's character. Truly the most Hypocritical moment from that sub.

[bloodreddemons]

Hazbin Hotel Episode 5-6 Hot Takes! ~

Lucifer doesn't really seem like a necessarily "good" dad or "bad" dad. He's definitely not the greatest at all but it really does suck that Charlie was pretty much isolated from him. Not completely his fault I'm sure.

I know it's obvious at this point that Lucifer & Alastor don't like each other...but you can definitely tell Alastor HATES him. His face was just stuck on stink the entire time.

To follow that up, I wonder why Alastor doesn't like Lucifer so much. Maybe it has to do with Lilith or Eve?

I like Lucifer's personality despite being the literal Devil he's actually very goofy. I don't think this was even a hot take. Lol.

Alastor saying fuck is the funniest thing in this show so far. It was actually gold. Bless him.

I hate that there was actual discourse surrounding episode 5 regarding Charlastor, and that people who hate the ship took the opportunity to either be pissed about their interactions, or celebrate that the ship is dead.

Hell's Greatest Dad was a nice song I really enjoyed it. Alastor and Lucifer sounded great.

A lot of people have already said this, but I think it's pretty obvious that Alastor was only trying to piss Lucifer off with the daughter comments. I don't think he actually sees him & Charlie as family.

Saying that Charlie can almost call Alastor Daddy was jaw dropping lol. I don't get how the ship is dead. It's definitely revived.

I fucking hate Mimzy. She's just an awful friend. She's literally that fake friend that only hits you up when you need something. I don't get how Alastor has been (hazbin) friends with her for so long. Christ.

I would've just thrown Mimzy to the Lone Sharks.

I wonder who "owns" Alastor? Most likely Lilith, that's what everybody has said. It could also possibly be Eve tho. He's definitely been working with someone.

Alastor's monster eldritch form kinda looks how a lot of us expected.

I don't get how Charlie is going to tell Lucifer, the first fallen angel EVER, and God's actual former favorite, what Heaven would say or think. He's already been there before. He knows how they work.

"More than Anything" was actually a pretty sweet song. It kinda hit close to home. Lucifer really sounded like the Angel he is.

Cherri & Sir Pentious are actually really cute. I kinda saw that one coming. Idk how they'd fuck tho. Ewwww.

Something is weird about Charlie not being on that list when they got to Heaven. Some people have speculated that she's in the wrong place. Hmmmm.

I don't really care for Sera or Emily. Idk I just don't. Sorry y'all.

"Welcome To Heaven" was such a weird gay ass song. 🤣 Why was that white ass twink priest practically moaning lmao...but the song was giving some type of backstreet boys or NSYNC.

I didn't think Lute or any of the exterminators actually had faces. That was a shock.

Even though it was already obvious to so many I was still gagged when the Vaggie Angel theory was finally confirmed. I love the way she met Charlie.

Not a hot take but I fucking hate Lute & Adam for doing Vaggie like that. She definitely didn't deserve it. All she did was spare one fucking child. They're evil.

The blackmailing Vaggie thing was very anticlimactic and dumb as fuck especially since they made Vaggie avoid being questioned. It would've been more interesting if Vaggie did what Adam said and spoke against Charlie at the meeting.

I've come to realize that Heaven is just shit and nobody knows what they're doing. The fact that they have a piece of shit like Adam up there and he himself doesn't know why he's there in the first place is very telling.

I don't think Cherri is a bad friend at all, but it was very off putting for her to constantly peer pressure Angel Dust when he's been trying to have a good streak. I get that she's a party animal and don't give a fuck but she could at least be mindful of her friend that's trying to stop their bad habits.

Angel being protective of Nifty when she was drunk was so cute. I'm happy he saved her from Val even if she didn't need it.

"You didn't know" was meh. It had some good parts I liked the overlapping of "Hell Is Forever" but thats really it.

I feel like Charlie is going to forgive Vaggie pretty quickly. I don't think this dramatic revelation of her past is going to cause that big of a rift in their relationship at all, especially with how quick they made up in episode 3.

[pinkandpurple360]

Do you think the next helluva boss episode will have even less views? I personally reach a point where i don't want anymore episodes to come out because they're becoming worse episode by episode, i see other people getting tired and quitting this show but maybe there are more people interest than what i see 🤷🏼‍♂️

Now that’s a great question.

I don’t know what exact factors go in to view count but here are some i have surmised. The hype is at an all time low, it is doubling down on its flawed aspects, past episodes failed to entertain the audience.

Excitement - the hype from full moon was the maximum, it is all pretty dim now. The stolitz fandom have 100% of the plot dedicated to their desires, yet only represent a little under 50% of the viewers. Even they aren’t all that excited anymore, throwing tantrums saying unless sinsmas is the ending they want they quit. Looking online, almost nobody is talking about HB except a couple hundred fans.

Fan service - HB has been serving and catering exclusively to stolas x Blitzø shippers, who are clearly not a representative sample of who is watching this. That has caused viewer decline because most people aren’t shippers. Especially casual viewers. But even the shippers are starting to get bored.

Hype - Full Moon is an experiment in how fandom hype reflects views, and that went very wrong. It is by far the most hyped up episode, but only performed 50% as well as the previous episode did. It was universally a disappointment.

Promotion - A date and time used to always be announced online to create intrigue. There is a schedule now that wasn’t always there before. That could be a positive. Hazbin hotel caused a spike in views, but since it has concluded, that aspect can no longer be counted on.

“Reputation is everything” and that of HB and Vivienne medrano is frankly, in the toilet. It is disliked for the infantile cussing, abandonment of the original show premise, the ridiculous melodrama of the creators pet bird character, and the unbearable toxic discourse in the analysis community and right from the creator herself. People say it feels embarrassing to recommend this show to people, and it’s a guilty pleasure. Fans dogpile on content creators who discuss it, which only winds up silencing them, and reducing traffic talking about the show.

The biggest factor: People who are choosing to stick around, aside from very entitled and hopelessly obsessed shippers, are bored. Medrano has already told us how this story ends. Clearly from the merchandise all the current ships are endgame, there is some love triangles to drag out runtime that nobody will bother getting emotionally invested in since we know the ending, none of the characters fall out permanently or have a lasting conflict, we know none of the main characters will die so that creates plot armour and no tension. They said the ending is a happy one.

I hate to see this happening, it used to be a fun popular show with a decent reputation, without so much drama and discourse around it. It was well liked. Fandom being catered to way too much, and barriers being broken between fans animators and the show runner, just ruins everything.

[funhouse-mirror-barbie]

What it should mean to support ALL survivors—Fandom discourse and the depiction of sexual assault in media.

So. Okay.

Below is a video that, in my opinion, is a very well thought out and respectful critique of the writing decisions surrounding Angel Dust’s character and purpose in Hazbin’s narrative.

The author of the video does a great job clearly stating their thoughts and opinions, and put a lot of effort into explaining their reasoning in a concise and easy to understand way.

I really recommend giving it a watch—(TW for discussions of rape, sexual assault and abuse. )

However, one of the most important things about this video though, is that the author, Limus, takes the time to specify that the video is only her opinion, and that she does not want to invalidate the feelings of other people or survivors who like or feel represented by Angel Dust. (More below)

In their conclusion, Limus states, “…If you enjoyed “Hazbin Hotel” and Angel Dust as a character, that’s fine. I don’t want you to walk away from this thinking your opinion is less than mine. People have their own reasons for liking media, and the discourse surrounding this show and the harassment that people receive just for liking it is unacceptable. You can have your reasons for disliking a show, but people can also have their reasons for liking it as well. Everything I have said in this video is in relation to my own personal life…”

I was REALLY glad and really relieved that Limus took the time to specify this, because one of my biggest grievances with the discourse regarding Hazbin’s depictions of sexual abuse, assault and rape, is that I see a LOT of people, both critics and fans, disregarding the experiences and feelings of survivors with opinions opposite to theirs.

Specifically, I saw a LOT of people talking about the portrayal of sexual abuse in Hazbin, and media in general, as if it was something that could be judged as being OBJECTIVELY “good” or “bad”.

And then proceeding to argue with people over their opinions and feelings as if they were in some sort of debate and the other person’s beliefs could be disproven.

This was really frustrating to me, because I’m hyper-aware of how media is extremely subjective especially when it comes to serious topics like sexual assault, violence, substance addiction, abuse, etc. etc.

So, I’m going to talk, in detail, about what I see as a lot of hypocrisy within fandom and critical spaces.

This really started in January of this year (2024) when a trailer (or maybe a leak? Sorry I can’t remember) for Hazbin came out, and a scene from Poison was shown.

There were a lot of people who were really concerned with the way Angel Dust’s abuse was shown in the preview, a good amount of them survivors of sexual abuse themselves, and from there the discourse got pretty out of hand.

Worst of all though, people, both fans and critics, allegedly started demanding “proof” of survivor’s assault from those they disagreed with.

This was very gross behavior, and I don’t care what your opinion on Hazbin Hotel is, NO ONE should have done that. It’s not only incredibly invalidating, but also potentially re-traumatizing.

Seriously. I hope ANYONE who engaged in this behavior, REGARDLESS of if they love Hazbin and think it’s the best thing in the world or if they hate it and think it’s the worst piece of media ever, were able to take a step back and realize how hurtful and inappropriate their actions were. And hopefully grow from that.

What disappointed me the most though was seeing Hazbin’s creator’s reaction to all of this. It was, in my opinion, very hypocritical and set the stage for the sort of harassment that is continuing in the fandom today.

A Disclaimer—this is going to be one of the ONLY TIMES I talk directly about the creator of Hazbin Hotel, Vivienne “Vivziepop” Medrano. I’m doing so because she was engaging directly and openly with this discourse when it was happening, and I think it’s important to talk about her actions and reactions because it provides some context for the background in regards to the ongoing conversations surrounding Hazbin’s SA depictions.

I generally do not like publicly talking about or making judgements on creators as people based on the art they create, because while a creator’s art is almost always influenced by their personality and experiences, it’s not a good way to judge someone’s ENTIRE character. All people are multi-faceted, and the art or media we create usually reflects only part of someone. Additionally, people use art, fiction, and media to explore all kinds of things, including things they would never do or want in real life, and that’s valid and normal. Obviously.

But when a creator publicly expresses an opinion in regards to ongoing discourse, of course people are allowed to discuss it and have their own opinions. Especially when that creator has a lot of fans who look to them as a role-model. Not saying that Vivziepop is responsible for actions of her fans, but when you are a public figure like she is, I do think it’s important to be as mindful as you can about your influence.

With all of that said. Yeah. I was. Incredibly disappointed by Vivziepop’s reaction to this. Because, I actually do agree with a lot of the things she was saying about supporting survivors—

I 100% agree with this. Everyone processes trauma differently, and that should be respected. We should not judge survivors for how they cope or process their trauma.

If this statement was made in response to the all judgement and struggles that survivors generally have to deal with, I would not have any issue with it whatsoever.

But. It wasn’t. Vivziepop said this because people were criticizing Hazbin Hotel—specifically there were survivors who were upset and triggered by scenes from the musical sequence “Poison” that leaked prior to Hazbin’s official release.

Now, obviously, I can’t know her true intent or beliefs. But her bringing all of this up after she had received criticism from survivors about her show leads me to believe that she doesn’t really care about supporting all survivors. Especially since after she said this, she proceeded to dismiss the concerns that several survivors brought to her because “the show hadn’t come out yet”.

To me, this is just hypocrisy.

Now, to be fair. Im also an artist. I understand feeling like your art or story is your baby, and feeling really protective of it. In some ways I was conflicted when all of this was happening back in January, because I get the frustration and hurt that comes with people not liking your art or not giving it a chance.

That can be very disheartening, and definitely feels unfair. I can empathize with Vivziepop in regard to that, because I don’t know how I would handle the amount of criticism her art gets. I’ve had my art criticized pretty harshly online, and it does really hurt. I really can’t imagine how emotionally taxing that is on such a large scale.

But with all of that said, at the end of the day, as creator, especially a creator making something for widespread international audiences, you have to learn how to be okay with the fact that your art, whether it’s music, visual arts, storytelling, or whatever, will not be universally loved. That’s pretty much impossible, and it’s also okay.

And while you obviously don’t have to listen to EVERY bit of criticism you receive, I do think it is vitally important to listen to criticism and concerns when they come from a whole group of people you are trying to represent.

This was Vivziepop’s response to survivors of sexual assault who asked to have their concerns about Angel Dust and the portrayal of his assault also taken seriously:

In my opinion, these replies are all really dismissive. I agree with everything Vivziepop said about survivors who felt represented being spoken over was also wrong. But these are survivors being open about how Vivziepop’s show has already affected them negatively, and the fear that their reactions to and opinions on the show will be, or in some cases—have already been, invalidated and called into question by the Hazbin fandom.

Vivzie’s response to them is that the show hasn’t come out yet, so they are getting upset “preemptively”. It really comes across like their concerns did not matter to Vivziepop, and like it didn’t matter to her that they had already been triggered or felt as if the handling of the scene was fetishistic based on what came out.

She states that her fans are “speaking out on their own experiences and reminding that the scene isn’t out yet”. I’m not denying that some fans do feel represented, but to me, it doesn’t, and didn’t matter if the show hadn’t come out yet.

The full episode can’t magically “take back” the fact that a lot of survivors saw this small clip on its own and it was enough to affect them. And that is just as valid of an experience as people who felt represented.

And listen. No group of people is a monolith and that includes survivors. People WILL have many differing opinions about the way sensitive topics are portrayed, especially when it’s as traumatic as sexual assault and abuse.

I am not saying Vivziepop should have somehow magically concocted a show that handles sexual assault objectively perfectly and pleases every survivor ever. That’s impossible, and I would NEVER ask or expect ANYONE to be able to do that.

But, it’s very clear to me in the interactions above that the people who were upset only wanted their opinions and experiences to be heard and respected as well, and they were essentially told that their feelings didn’t matter.

And to me, Vivziepop’s reaction to all of this was really giving Sia circa 2020:

I really think that, a lot of this could have been mitigated if someone from the Hazbin team, not even necessarily Vivziepop, had just acknowledged, “hey, you’re absolutely in your right to not like the scene and those feelings are valid”.

But there is a very strange sort of hypocrisy that is almost like. Tinted with virtue signaling*??? About listening to all survivors voices, while simultaneously dismissing the voices of survivors that are saying they have already been hurt.

THAT is what bothers me the most. It really seems like the only survivors that a lot of people involved in this discourse, including Vivziepop, were willing to listen to or validate were the ones that already agreed with them.

If you are going to support survivors you DO have to ACTUALLY SUPPORT ALL survivors. Even if they disagree with you.

If you’re still with me, I really really appreciate it. I felt I had to go over all of this to add context, because the concerns those survivors talked about over 10 months ago, foreshadowed the EXACT situation that some people in the Hazbin fandom have now put Limus in.

All because, after the episode came out, they expressed their honest opinions on the subject matter and the way Angel Dust was written in a way fans disagreed with.

I find it really disturbing that, the whole point of Vivziepop’s dismissal was that the show hadn’t come out, and that she said she would “respect” if people had concerns AFTER it came out. But I haven’t really seen any acknowledgment from her that survivors, who after seeing the whole scene, were still negatively affected.

The below is a tweet Vivziepop liked shortly after the episode came out in full.

I agree that any survivors who felt seen by Angel Dust and the show and were invalidated and had their experiences dismissed and questioned by others deserve apologies. But I can’t help but think about the fans who didn’t feel the same, who were hurt, and triggered by the depiction of SA before AND after the show released. I don’t want to read to much into likes, because people like shit for all sorts of reasons, but Vivziepop liking this tweet saying she deserves an apology too does rub me the wrong way, especially after she was told that survivors have ALREADY been hurt.

Don’t those people deserve apologies too? Or at the very least just an acknowledgment that their hurt and concern was valid?? It just comes off to me as a confirmation that Vivziepop doesn’t really want to listen to ALL survivors, just the ones that haven’t criticized her and praised her show.

To clarify—just as Limus did at the end of her video—I AM NOT SAYING THAT SA SURVIVORS WHO DIDNT LIKE THE SHOW’S HANDLING OF SA ARE THE “CORRECT” SURVIVORS AND THAT PEOPLE WHO FELT SEEN AND REPRESENTED BY ANGEL DUST AND THE SHOWS WRITING ARE “WRONG”.

The WHOLE POINT of me going over ALL of this is to take a look at the hypocrisy of many people both in the fandom and outside of it who SAY they care about ALL survivors feelings and experiences, but then call those experiences into question the MOMENT a survivor has an opinion different than their own.

And sadly, I personally believe the creator of Hazbin also contributed hugely to this hypocrisy.

When we look at what happened in January, it now feels weirdly prescient. People are treating Limus’ opinion as if she is personally attacking them, or saying that their experiences are invalid. She did not do that.

It also seems like a lot of people who like Angel Dust and feel he represents them are taking Limus’ critique of the character writing decisions made for Angel Dust, who is not a real person and does not exist, as personal attacks on their real lived experiences. She did not do that either. She was extremely clear that her opinions were in regards to the way Angel Dust was written as a character.

But because Limus critiqued Angel Dust, her experience with abuse has been called into question, just like the above survivors that were concerned about all of this way back in January. This is absolutely fucking unacceptable.

I am saying this to CRITICS AND FANS of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, and fuck it, honestly ALL fandoms—If you have engaged in this sort of behavior, you have got to stop. I think the love and passion you have for the art that is important to you is beautiful and wonderful. But NOTHING justifies treating other people this way. It does not matter how much you love a certain character or how much they comfort you or what solace you find in them. There is NO EXCUSE for bullying and harassing someone over this shit.

I am saying this fully aware that it may cause people to get mad at me and want to send me hate. And honestly that’s fine. I will deal with it if it comes. But I couldn’t sit here and watch so many people shit on someone for talking about their experiences and opinions again.

Please, if you find the tweets/threads I referenced in this post, DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM OR HARASS THE POSTERS. This whole long massive post was all about why we should NOT do that.

When these conversations happen, I often see people just. Putting words into other’s mouths like it’s an Olympic sport. If someone says they don’t like the way Angel is written, they are not saying your experiences are invalid. If someone says they love the way Angel is written, they are not saying you have to love him and feel represented by him too.

Please. Please try to empathize with each other. Or at the very least, maybe just take some time to sit with your feelings instead of harassing others. I’m using Hazbin as an example because it’s a fandom I’ve had experience with recently, but this really does apply to all fandoms.

As I final note—if you love Angel Dust and think he’s the best written character and feel really represented and seen by him, that’s wonderful and I’m really happy to hear that the show was cathartic or comforting for you. Genuinely.

And if you hated the way Angel Dust was written and the show triggered you, I am so sorry that happened. It is so painful to re-live trauma like that, and I hope any that pain you felt from being reminded of what happened eased quickly and gently.

Both of your experiences and opinions are completely valid, and you have every right to express your opinions to others. Your trauma is real, and however you process it and cope with it should not be judged by anyone.

I just ask that we all be more respectful, and try to be curious about other’s perspectives regarding this stuff.

Thank you again for bearing with me through all of this. I hope you have a great day or night.

*I really really HATE the term “virtue signaling” because in MOST cases, I only ever see it being used to dismiss minorities and allies concerns about injustices. But, given the circumstances of this situation, I do think it’s actually appropriate here, given that survivors where expressing their concerns to Vivziepop and she was justifying her dismissal of them by saying the show hadn’t come out yet, and then went on to say that all survivors mattered. I don’t know whatever word I should have used, other than it just being hypocritical. Again I hate that term, and wouldn’t be using it here if I didn’t really believe it was appropriate and accurate.

[enderwolf91]

I wake up to this absolute gem flooding my feed and I'm in love with her for she is me

I haven't even watched the short yet but holy shit the things I've seen make me believe it'll be my absolute favorite

I'll go back to overwatch and venture posting but just know that she is me and I am her in all senses but physical (I wish I could pull off a pastel goth girl look she's so cute)

*edit: I'm reminded to why I decided not to be active in the helluva boss fandom here cuz holy shit scrolling through the tags, it is so full of hate towards others and discourse over the direction of the show that I've barely seen anything positive without seeing something horrendously negative right before or after.

psa to the people who regularly see my posts, I do like Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel, especially HB, but there will be very little posts about it on my blog cuz I'm not gonna be dragged into the toxicity that is the fandom. I just wanna enjoy the show and the silly characters without being hated for my personal opinions and likes, if I get asks for HB or HH stuff I'll respond but I won't be do a lot of shit posting like I do for overwatch

[weaselbeaselpants]

Legit Bad-take/Bad-Faith Helluvaverse critics you should not trust if you see them

Interpersonal squabbles within the critical tag are irrelevant, sorry. This here is a genuine warning against users you should keep your distance from in regards to any VivziePop drama-discourse because their names may come up and you should know what it is that crossed the line.

Starlatte/Starvader/HonestHazbinCritiques/OhGodDude and Woomycritiques/RaySquid - Serial harasser(s). Long story incoming. Starlatte was/is a Vivcritical who got involved in the fandom back in 2019/2020 when she was a minor and didn't tell anyone. Her blog on tumblr was HonestHazbinCritiques where she made some good points but also managed to find/be a part of everyone else's takes in the critical community. Her relationship with several criticalblogs turned sour when she started lashing out, talking over people, being accused of faking her age, and doing stuff like arguing with irl sexworkers abt how they should feel about Angel Dust. Whatever her age actually was at the time, she was also sending her own rewrite scripts and fanwritten episodes to Spindlehorse in order to 'fix' Hazbin. In 2021 Star returned to Tumblr under the name "Oh-God-Dude" w/o disclosing to new people who she was while also starting shit. When said new ppl found out her past and got mad at her, she proceeded to block-backtalk every one of them.

Woomycritiques (twitter handle: Raysquid) is a critical blogger who stans Star and calls everyone else in the critical community an obsessed stalker while lashing out herself. She accused others of racism (unfounded), her friends of predation just for being proship (not the 'cest and underage is good'-kind, the "I like some problematic stuff in fic-context"-kind), and heckled Dirgentlemen over how much they should hate Helluva, and more.

Regardless of if you believe Woomy and Star are the same person, which ppl do, they are both -by now- adult persons who have been asked to stop and DIDN'T, which is why people don't trust them. Star and Woom were asked to tone it down, stop making accusations and even asked by many criticals to leave and stop talking about Helluvaverse as she/they seem to have nothing good to say about it. To put that into perspective, cuz I know some HH/HB fans are gonna be reading this: the people who've self-styled themselves antis and criticals begged this person to leave cuz she had nothing nice to say and was being a nuisance. I know the stans think that's all of us anyway, so let that sink in.

LincarRox aka ToyTaker - Creep. Nasty jealous stalker freak who got kicked out of Helluvaverse servers and Aminos for saying nasty shit like how he "wants to put a baby" in Viv. No really. He took his shit and grievances to BadWebComics wiki under the name TheToyTaker while also seemingly trying to get work at Spindlehorse in order to have access to Viv directly and to 'fix' her show. He did so by faking his animation portfolio. BWW did eventually catch on and kick him out but yeah....bad. May or may not still be going under his old pseudonyms, but regardless if you see someone talking weirdly sexually abt Viv while saying they were "let go" both by SH and BWW, get out now. That's probably him.

Animation Call-Out - Bigoted shitlord. Twitter user who rags on Vivz' controversies w other people but also hates gays and BIPOCs. Admitted to submitting one of the anonymous reviews against Spindlehorse "for fun" amidst legitimate ex-employees. All of the reviews, even the ones that seem the most validating/believable should be taken with a grain of salt I believe especially since they are coming to us anonymously, but when a racist person admits to def being one of those fake reviews for "Lolz" sake, that's def when shit's hit the fan.

DoodleToons - Also bigoted creeperlooser. Altright white kid who hates BIPOC existing in anything and admits to hating Viv's stuff for their LGBTisms and 'demons'. Yes, there legit are bad-faith critics who are homophobic. Just because Viv and her crew have a way of saying that's EVERY critic of her work doesn't mean there aren't shitty people out there.

[jessequinnfirstofhername]

I don't like how differently the fandom treats RadioApple and other Alastor ships. People hate Charlastor because Charlie is taken and way older than Alastor. But Lucifer is a married man and literally Charlie's father. (I'll accept the fact that people believe since Lilith doesn't seem to be in the scene anymore but it's still weird) As a RadioStatic shipper I hate that people shit on anyone who even try to make RadioStatic mutual people will spam "And then Vox woke up" or "In Vox's dreams". Like, bruh. They act like even implying Alastor likes Vox is erasing to his sexuality when from what I see, most RadioStatic shippers are asexual themself. (Yes, I have heard there are many ace RadioApple fans, but I just hear so many more RadioStatic fans openly say they are AroAce) People act like RadioSilence and QP RadioRose are the only acceptable Alastor ships, but when it comes to RadioApple they completely ignore it. As they should for all Alastor ships if they think they're wrong but they don't. Anyone can ship anything, but this double standard disgusts me, especially when RadioApple art tends to be way more openly suggestive.

(My confessions are always sooo long, sowwyy)

Hmm... I'm going to gently push back. I have seen RadioApple get attacked. I myself got a complaint over including it in Lepidopterophobia. However, most of the Alastor Ship Discourse I've seen has not related to RadioApple, so I do think your argument has merit.

My Best Hazbin Hotel Ship poll was the first time I ever had to swing the ban-hammer, and it was over in-fighting related to Charlastor. God, that ship is controversial. I know people get creeped out because (and I know Charlie is older) it does come off like an older man preying on a vulnerable young woman, but that's not what's happening and if that power imbalance creeps you out... well. You shouldn't be comfortable with any of Lucifer's ships then, right?

Right?

Anon, don't take this as an attack on you, but I did giggle a little at the inference of: "Lucifer Morningstar, the King Of Hell, is a married man you Radio Demon harlot!"

I'm not Asexual, so I don't want to be The Final Word on this debate. But I am going to say that I have seen plenty of AroAce people who love RadioStatic and plenty of Allosexual people speaking for the Asexual community when they bash RadioStatic.

Also, hasn't Amir Talai himself said that Alastor's Asexuality doesn't rule out the possibility of him having/having had a relationship?

But I am not the final word here. I would love to hear how Asexual fans of various Alastor ships feel about this Discourse.

Exactly. If you're going to give RadioStatic shit for erasing Alastor's sexuality, you better be giving all of Alastor's ships the same criticism or you're kinda just being a dick to RadioStatic fans.

...I mean... I have no complaints about suggestive RadioApple art...

Don't worry about it! You're lovely!

-Jesse xx

[itsclydebitches]

Have you seen the posts going around saying shit like "If a mutual likes Hazbin Hotel I will block them"?? It's genuinely upsetting me tbh, not just the idea that people don't like the show, but that they despise it so much they can't even stand the thought of someone they know liking the show. It reminds me of the Steven Universe hate train only worse. They also say shit like "the show is just someone saying swear words and expecting you to laugh", and if for a second we put aside the fact that that is blatantly not true, what's wrong with that? I'm allowed to like something that's a bit trash, right? I've already seen two different people I follow reblog posts to that effect (and worse, someone saying all a character boils down to is "i love being sexually abused <3" and i don't know how they ever came to that conclusion) and it's driving me mad. And somehow I just know that they don't actually give a shit about any "controversies" surrounding vivziepop, that's just a convenient excuse for most of them. I don't even care if Vivzie is a bad person, that's none of my business. just live and let live, you know?

Sorry for ranting, you're literally the only blog i follow who posts Hazbin fan content

Rant away, friend! Luckily for me I haven't come across any of those posts yet. Plenty of discourse surrounding whether fans are allowed to make romantic and/or sexual content for Alastor, the expected shipping wars, and - as you say - vague references to Vivzie controversies (which I'm too new a fan to even be aware of yet)... but nothing that's a complete rejection of the show itself. That's probably because I've only engaged with blogs posting a lot of Hazbin content though.

I'm a big fan of old school Internet rules which includes an emphasis on cultivating your own online space. You know, the thing tumblr is explicitly designed for. So in theory I applaud anyone blocking users/tags for a show they're not a fan of. Performatively posting about it more as a way to guilt others for liking Hazbin at all... not so much. If you want to block something just block it. If you're mutuals with someone you both presumably like each others' content. Not all of it necessarily, but enough to have followed in the first place, and often being mutuals for long enough leads to friendship because you're both getting interacting with one another a lot. All of which isn't to say that people don't unfollow mutuals, or that you can't drop a mutual because they've started posting something you dislike. Obviously both situations do happen, but it feels like an extreme enough response that these posters probably aren't actually doing this very often. Most people will wait the mutual out until their interest gets hooked on something new, or block the Hazbin tag and keep the friend, or just block without making a big announcement about it. So posts like that feel more like a way to show off how much you dislike the show and guilt others for their enjoyment which yeah, can be upsetting to see. Especially when, as you say, it costs nothing to just let people like things.

Which might sound hypocritical on my part given my RWBY interests, but I think there's a big difference between critically examining a show while supporting others who genuinely love it, and simplistically blasting it. I COMPLETELY get why Hazbin wouldn't be to everyone's tastes and, like with the SU example, anything that gets popular enough is going to develop its haters (especially cartoons trying to tackle non-childish subjects. That's always going to be a fandom landmine). But if you're going to make claims about a show, at least watch it to ensure you can back up your stance? And if your takeaway is still, "This is the worst fucking thing I've ever watched"... cool. Go forth and write about that on your own, personal blog. But no one should be surprised when they're also blocked for bragging about how many Hazbin fans they've blocked.

[proshipconfessions]

Having a lot of proship mutuals and many mutuals that would be "problematic" by antis standards because the real world is complicated and nuanced and seeing your mutual say all proshippers are pedophiles. Is just. An experience. This is gonna be a long one.

And I could get into the more serious side of things and the psychology of things and philias such as pedophilia, but that's a very nuanced and often triggering topic so. Probably not.

And also seeing Charlie x Alastor (hazbin hotel) be called a proship and being seen as awful to ship. We don't even like the ship ourselves especially if it gets into smut/nsfw territory. But like. What??? It's fine if you don't wanna interact with it. But to essentially lump this really largely benign ship into proshipping because you don't like it.

"it ignores canon that he's aroace and she has a girlfriend." And vivzie used to ship Alastor with Mimzi before making him aroace because "romance didn't fit his story for the show." I heavily still ship Alastor and Mimzi among other Alastor ships. I'm literally aroace too.

"She literally sees him as a dad." I've seen people shipping Carmilla with her own daughters. I even used to ship her daughters cause before the show we didn't know they were sisters. Also character interpretations can be so wildly different too. And many fandom peeps don't even attach heavily to canon. Canon is not the end all be all of fandom.

Like. Alastor x Charlie is the least problematic ship I've seen people ship. Do I like it? Not really, no. It does make me uncomfortable. But to label it in a way as proship (meaning it's bad and people who like it are awful morally since it's an anti definition of proship) is so weird. You don't have to like it. But to lump people in with those "weirdos you hate" because you don't like the ship. When you're clearly someone that hates proshippers is...so gross.

I don't even care about shipcourse or any discourse. It triggers my moral ocd and a lot of it is just freaking out over things that aren't that big of a deal. And ignores any nuanced discussion because antis paint everything black and white because of their personal boundaries. (I used to be more anti cause of my moral ocd and personal triggers for trauma. Yeah. It's a bs mindset.)

There's far worse things to worry about than someone shipping something you don't like or a ship that's illegal. And even with more actually problematic ships like incest and pedophilia ships. It's far more nuanced. And even then, fiction as an outlet actually DOES help ACTUAL pedophiles from offending. Like. When helping to treat pedophilia because it's a mental disorder in the DSM-V. It is encouraged for safe fictional outlets and a supportive environment to lower risk of offending. Removing fictional outlets even IF someone was a pedophile is actually risking more harm. And even then. Most people doing this aren't pedophiles themselves.

I'm a csa survivor too. I've literally looked into this to challenge my beliefs and triggers. Out of pure morbid curiosity to understand it. And it is a LOT more nuanced and complicated than online internet shipcourse can convey. People shipping fictional illegal things aren't hurting others. Most of those just breach containment BECAUSE of antis or because of algorithms on websites that people can't control. I've been more exposed to triggering ships like All Might x Deku because of antis and google images than I have by the creators of the content themselves. When I was more anti, I was far more triggered because of seeing so much of that shit. Now I'm more proship cause I literally don't give a fuck and have more important issues. And like. I barely see triggering ships and content like that. Unless I'm specifically researching things or scrolling on a hyperfixation.

Actually having looked into the psychology and research behind such this. It is a LOT more complicated than antis give credit for. And more complicated than most people on either side care to know. Proshippers are just living their lives. They aren't here for the in depth morals and research behind these things. But if they were, it more heavily supports them.

And having been more of an anti. That shit made my mental health so much worse. Because you genuinely do not know what could be labelled a proshipper thing. It could be something that's fucked up that you like (Attractions are neutral and it is not controllable. If someone were distressed by their attractions then demonizing does not help them seek help. Most people will discover their attractions in their teen years or whenever they hit puberty. And many professionals still don't fully understand philias or kinks or attractions.) or it could be a benign ship that doesn't stick to canon.

There's plenty of ships I don't like. There's plenty of ships that are illegal and make me uncomfortable and upset. And really. The best thing to do is to just scroll or block and move on. That has been far better than me obsessing about these people I hate for doing things I don't like.

And even outside of fandom, these things are not black and white. It's far more complicated. Let. Let random people on the internet ship what they want. You don't have to like it. If it's a ship, even if it's immoral or illegal, let people ship it. If it genuinely helps them, regardless of whether it's "healthy" or not, then it doesn't matter. It is not up to you to decide what is healthy or good for other people. Blocking people you don't like will make you forget about em real quick. Whether it's justified cause they're an asshole or something petty and small.

I'm so tired of mostly antis making it a whole fucking thing because people are complex and complicated and weird. I've been in fandoms since I was 11. I'm an adult now. People will be fine. The only thing hurting fandom spaces is fucking shipcourse and the way people react to "problematic" ships.

Ship and let ship, my dudes.

———

[zeeph-containment-zone]

//sa discussion: really not digging the "you can be seen but never heard" mentality the internet has adapted towards depictions of SA, mainly seeing it today in the recent Hazbin Hotel discourse. "Respectful Depictions," according to the web, apparently can ONLY tell the viewer they were assaulted but the minute they show anything, the fetishization fingers start being pointed and the creators are deemed bad people. As an SA victim and someone who writes about their own experience using their characters, this sits terribly with me. I hate how the internet has created this "sunshine and rainbows" effect regarding discussions of sa because sa is the exact opposite of that. It's messy, it's scary, it's uncomfortable. And if YOU, ESPECIALLY if you're someone who's never been, are upset that you are uncomfortable because you saw an SA scene in a movie, TV show, or otherwise, take a moment to think about how people who actually lived through a situation like that feel before writing a twitter rant about how the scary sides of SA shouldn't be explicitly shown in media. It takes a lot of guts for people to come forward and write about their abuse and they don't deserve to be accused of fetishizing their own experience because they weren't afraid to show the world what happened to them. It's also important to show the dark side of SA because you never know who could be living in a similar situation. That stuff being shown as a bad thing actually™ can help a lot of people process things that have happened to them. It also helps dispel the stereotypical depiction of topics like these (aka the "creepy man in a back alley who drags a random woman behind a dumpster" trope.) There's a very distinct bold line that divides fetishization and genuine portrayal and it's ignored by so many people.

That being said you're allowed to be uncomfortable and feel triggered by depictions. That is extremely valid and people should respect that. You can skip the scenes if you need to, there's resources out there that'll tell you exactly what to skip + they're required to list that content contains things like that in the rating description. What ISN'T okay though is assuming the creator had bad intent because you were uncomfortable and for no other reason, and attacking, speaking over or downlplaying SA victims for feeling differently. (also in terms of referencing this to the hazbin hotel drama, yes i've seen the tweet she made about the MV. I really really think she was actually referencing the dancing spider and not the flashbacks, and I agree it's in distaste because she was probably too dense to think about that. And also no, I'm not watching that shit nor have I ever liked it to begin with. I hate it for several other reasons.)

[catboymoments]

Hey, speaking as someone who actually WATCHED THE SHOW I can tell you that it doesn’t romanticize abuse in any way, and Angel has more depth than you think. I kinda wish you wouldn’t act like everyone who likes Hazbin Hotel doesn’t have a brain, especially when I’ve seen multiple SA survivors enjoying the show and saying that episode 4 really spoke to them.

how many times do I have to tell you people that I don’t want to discuss the deep ins and outs of the discourse of hashbrown motel I DOOONNNTTT. WANNA. OKAY. if you liked it good for you I guess but it still doesn’t change the fact that from the clips I’ve seen and what I know about viv and the people she hires I DONT LIKE IT!!!! It’s not like I’m hating it because it’s trendy to hate it, I’ve seen parts of it and I DONT ENJOY IT !!!!!! MAN!!!

[sirenscriptures]

𝐚𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 + 𝐛𝐲𝐟

well, hello lovely !! welcome to sirensciptures, my own personal, self-indulgent, vast library and occasionally, personal diary >3<

here’s a little about me !

(whichever you prefer using) : vlynn / vyn. she/they. early 20s. otherwise known as — gallagher’s sweetheart. taiju’s pearl. choso’s darling. muzan’s dahlia. arthur’s sweet girl. reiner’s angel. kaiser’s babe.

currently a computer science student + dental tech in progress. i’m a writer, tarot reader, wannabe artist, animator in the making, and creature enthusiast <3

my big three: sagittarius sun (december baby!) virgo moon, and taurus rising. i am also an infp if you are interested in that as well lol.

LOVE ! : sweet + spicy food, tarot, spirituality, crystals, thunderstorms, dark chocolate, cold brew, platform boots, fall/winter, spooky/paranormal things, musicals, poetry, oddities.

HATE ! : humidity, wet socks, plagiarists, impatient people, sudden loud noises, bland food, yogurt covered pretzels, wasps.

MUSIC : ghost b.c., jesper kyd, mitski, thin lizzy, hozier, orville peck, mon laferte, boygenius, will wood, SZA, bathory, slipknot, iron maiden, slayer, ABBA, ethel cain, cattle decapitation, pantera, tyler the creator, chappell roan, bridge city sinners, pig destroyer, twiztid, oingo boingo, johnny cash, tally hall, rammstein, system of a down, peso pluma, a$ap rocky, kali uchis, melanie martinez, $uicideboy$, tom waits, mr. bungle, and more!

FANDOM/OTHER : tokyo revengers, call of duty (mw2 and zombies), warhammer 40k, resident evil, blue lock, jujutsu kaisen, hazbin hotel, red dead redemption, haikyuu, honkai star rail, genshin impact, demon slayer, darkest dungeon, one piece, attack on titan, boku no hero, detroit: become human, jojo’s bizarre adventure, gangsta, free!, five nights at freddy’s, obey me, etc.

BYF / DNI :

- this is strictly an 18+ blog. please do not interact if you are under 18 years of age. you are welcome to interact with my sfw/fluff works, but not with me personally.

- i do not have a set writing schedule due to me working full time and being a student, so please don’t expect any kind of consistent uploading.

- certain characters will be aged up if necessary, regardless of the content they are being written into. i do not partake in aging up discourse here, and it will only be done for the characters who need it.

- do not interact if you fit basic criteria (racist, homo/transphobic, bigoted, etc.) be a respectful, decent human being is all i ask.

- do not interact if you are anti-dark content. there will be a lot of different themes here, so please be mindful.

- do not interact if you aren’t going to engage with at least a little bit of writing. a simple reblog/comment goes a long way!

- do not interact if you can’t stop yourself from causing/engaging in drama. i don’t want any discourse on here, especially not from outside sources. leave it where you found it. it is not allowed here.

if you read this far, i am giving you a big kiss on the forehead !! you are so appreciated, and i hope you enjoy it here <3

[showaboutdeath]

I want to etch my brilliance in your memory

I'll give my all in this ultimate try,

Just wait and see!

Now, step into this Daydream×Reality

Hiya !~ I'm JoJo, but I also go by Ratti and some of the name of my kins!

I'm not new to the proship community, this is just a new pinned :)

I'm a masc-leaning nonbinary person who's bisexual, fictoaroace and an adult. I enjoy things like writing, drawing, and listening to music and I also like playing rhythm games :3 My F/O list is here!

Interests/Fandoms

Bolded are things I'm fixated on, and italics are my favorite installation in the series/version of the media

• Mouthwashing

• Ensemble Stars!! (I play both Basic and Music)

• Hoyoverse games (Genshin Impact/Honkai: Star Rail)

• Pokémon (XY, BW, SM, SWSH, SV

• Beetlejuice (All media types)

• Fire Emblem (FEH, FE3H, SoV, Fates, Awakening)

• School of Rock (Movie and Musical)

• Chronicles of Narnia (Primarily movie based, PC and VoTDT)

• Harry Potter* (All books but specifically PoA, GoF, OoTP)

• Hellaverse (Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss)

• Zombieland Saga

*I do not support J.K Rowling financially, I just like her characters and stories.

Before you Follow/Bonus Info

• I have no DNI, anyone is free to interact because I simply block people I don't like. Just please be respectful :)

• You'll find that I support/am the following stances: Proship/Profiction, anti-harassment, Pro Paraphilia (Anti-Contact for big 3), Pro RPF (including RPF selfship as long as you do not harm yourself or others), Radqueer-neutral, and pro-kink. My general stance is just "I'm too tired to give a fuck about your fictional characters kissing and/or thoughts that harm no one."

• Speaking of discourse, if you would like to filter any discourse-related posts/reblogs, my tag is #🪻 discourse

• Please don't take offense to me not responding to a message, I'm often very shy and/or busy so I ask for you to not take it to heart </3

• Feel free to ask my boundaries on things, I'll never be offended by it if you want to know how I feel about something :)

• I have some problematic f/os that get hated on by the entire fandom and personally, that stuff makes me uncomfortable so if you hate any of my f/os (specifically Ghetsis from Pokémon and/or Jimmy from Mouthwashing), atleast give me a tag to block because I'd prefer to not see that stuff. I do not fuck around with this rule btw, I will block you if you reblog character hate of my f/os (ESPECIALLY if it's violent) onto my dash without a tag to filter, regardless of how close we are.

• On an unrelated note, not a DNI but rather a fair warning that I block Sh/Ed (Self Harm/Eating Disorder) blogs because they make me uncomfortable as someone who is recovering from both of these.

[just-emerald-star]

It’s fine if you don’t like Hazbin Hotel &/or Helluva Boss. It’s fine to love both or one show. It’s especially fine if you’re in either of those categories and wanna be critical about them both.

What isn’t ok is repeating the same talking points and making up new ones just to start discourse. Just say you don’t like the show and stop acting as if every single thing in it is inherently bad. It’s a show set in hell, so of course certain aspects will be bad in a place full of sinners.

You don’t have to make up reasons to hate the show and could just do what I do: enjoy it while still being critical of it. I have my own criticisms of the show but hey, I’m a lot more positive than negative. But I’m not afraid to criticize the media I enjoy. I sure as hell won’t spend time hating on something I already know I hate. I’ll say my peace and move the fuck on. Life is too short to be dwelling on a show I can’t stand daily. IDK how some do that to begin with.

“But Viv did this thing and-”

Then stop supporting her work honey. She’s very aware of what she’s done and has apologized numerous times. She breathes & suddenly she’s targeted. Even when her shows aren’t airing, she’s put in the spotlight.

Viv isn’t perfect and I do wish she’d resist responding to every little thing and focus on her work and mental health/wellbeing instead. I love it when creatives choose to do that and stand firm on what they’ve created.

TL;DR Please just learn to say you don’t like a piece of media, accept that it’s not for you and go watch something that IS FOR YOU.

[transandgaybutworse]

Welcome to the Circus!

☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆

(My art can be used with credit, feel free to @ me in things as well!)

Hello! I'm your locally hated circus act, You can call me Alastor or Al the Clown, whichever you prefer!

I use He/they pronouns mostly, but if you wanna have some fun, here are my neopronouns!

☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆

I don't have a super unique DNI list but I thought it might be useful to state it anyways!

Do Not Interact:

☆ Homophobic, transphobic, TERF, Transmed, anti neopronouns, ect.

★ Racists, White supremacists ect.

☆ Pedo, MAP, MAP supporter ect.

★Against gender nonconforming people, especially GNC trans people.

☆ people who interact with/ encourage discourse, discourse blogs, ect.

☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆

Fandom's I'm currently in! I rotate between these ones the most often and if you wanna talk about them through asks I'd love it!

☆ Fnaf

★ The World of Mr. Plant

☆ Sanders Sides

★ Helluva Boss

☆ Hazbin Hotel

★ Shadow & Sonic the hedgehog (the characters specifically)

☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆

I'm not sure if anyone is interested but here are my Side blogs!

★ Incorrect sanders sides quotes - @randomtssincorrectquotes

☆ Lovecore blog - @lovecore-loverboy

☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆

Thank you to anyone who read this full thing, Have a fun filled day! Also feel free to send asks anytime, I love answering those!

☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆⋆｡𖦹°‧★⋆｡𖦹°‧☆