#bran meta

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Are Jon and Sansa both "idealists" on AGOT that have their dreams being crushed?

(This meta was inspired by a conversation I had with @docpiplup )

I've seen a couple of posts claiming that Jon and Sansa go through parallel arcs on AGOT because "both have idealistic dreams which get crashed". I do like all the Starklings and I find interesting pointing out parallels - even underrated ones - between any combination of them however in this case I find the parallel rather shallow.

First of all, let me begin by saying that Jon, Sansa AND BRAN ( who often is forgotten in order to make this parallel only about his older siblings) all express an ambition of theirs at the beginning of the first book. Jon wants to join the Night's Watch, Sansa wants to go to the South and become the Queen and Bran to become a knight.

Sansa and Bran's ambitions are more related because their ideal scenarios are inspired by the South and their mother's culture. Meanwhile, the Night's Watch is considered a respectable choice only on the North and Jon, the sole sibling raised only by a Northern parent couldn't possibly have a southern ambition.

In my opinion, what makes Jon's "dream" different than those of his younger siblings is the position he occupies within the family. Let me elaborate. Sansa and Bran are two well cared and sheltered kids living in a loving environment who are allowed to have their big dream (and honestly? Good for them, that's how kids on their age should be allowed to be). Plus, those are the two Starks who love reading fairy tales and I would describe romantic at heart.

Even if their dreams won't come true they will still have a bright future ahead of them (even if Sansa doesn't travel South and doesn't become Joffrey's queen, her father would arrange for her a noble marriage of her status/ even if Bran doesn't become a knight, he would still be welcomed to his father's and later to his brother's council and he could also have a noble marriage with lands to rule).

Unlike them, Jon feels unwelcome to Winterfell ( mostly bc of how the Castle's lady is treating him). He needs to make his life somewhere else. But what are his options? His father didn't make him apprentice of a craftsman so one day he could have a job of his own to make his living. Instead he was given a lording's education alongside his brothers - but bc of his bastard status, he's not expected to rule anything- and he was trained at the sword. Living in the North were sellsword companies and knights don't exist, becoming a Black Brother was the only road for him. So for Jon, wishing to join the Night's Watch isn't a romantic dream but instead the only solution a realistic teen could come up with.

Here are his own thoughts right after he tells his uncle he wants to join the Night's Watch:

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

And since this meta is getting too long I won't gointo detail and describe how Jon and Sansa react once their dreams get crushed (maybe I'll make a part two of this meta someday?). I'll just say that once again they have totally different reactions. Which is to be expected since those two siblings are very different in terms of personality.

[ladystoneboobs]

the younger starklings about robb (robb the strong and brave big brother, the perfect heir, the fierce and unbeatable young wolf):

arya

bran

sansa

meanwhile, actual robb (robb the lord and then robb the kitn):

before arya ever promised to be strong by using robb as her benchmark, the definition of stark strength, ned had to remind robb to be strong as the ruling stark in winterfell. (strong for bran and rickon, the brothers he thought he failed by sending their would-be killer away, leading to his great moment of weakness in jeyne westerling's bed.) as his siblings' faith in his ultimate triumph held strong, even after the loss of the north, robb himself was struggling with despair.

as grenn once told sam, maybe everyone is just pretending to be brave, maybe that's how people become brave. robb was faking it to make it too, imitating his father's lordly attitude as bran later tried to imitate robb's. as his younger siblings remembered him as their shining example, robb was trying to live up to his father's example. not the ned who'd been in his circumstances, a teenager unexpectedly turned into a lord and fighting a war to save his family. no, ofc, he never knew that young ned. the ned he knew as his father, the standard to measure himself against, was an adult man in his mid-30s who'd ruled the north for ~15 years. but was that standard for a 15/16yo any more fair and valid an expectation than 8/9yo bran believing he was almost a man grown and holding himself to the standard of 15/16yo robb as robb's heir?

and the only person left close enough to see robb as the boy he still was died with him.

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

If there is one line I like to over-analyze in the ASoIAF books it is a rather famous thought that goes inside Cat's head before her death. As the steel is close to her throat Cat thinks "No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair." And this line and her entire inner monologue is absolutely heart-breaking but one thing I fixate on is the actual sentence itself.

"Ned loves my hair."

Anyone who has read the books knows that Cat holds contempt for the fact that except for Arya, she has failed to give Ned children who look like him. It is also one of the reasons she dislikes Jon so much, because the mother of Jon (who she assumes to be Ned's bastard son) has managed to give Ned a child that looks just like him while she, his lawfully wedded wife gave birth to five of his children only for four of them to come out looking exactly like her. Red hair, blue eyes. Unlike Jon (and Arya) who share Ned's dark hair and dark eyes.

And knowing that it is so interesting to me that Cat's last thought about Ned (and her last thought ever) was that Ned loves her hair.

Because Ned loved her, he loved her hair, he loved her the way she was. And every time he looked at Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon he saw the reflection of the woman he loved, while Cat was so upset that they weren't all reflections of the man she loved.

Every time Ned ran his fingers through their hair, he ran his fingers through the hair of the woman he loved. He never resented Cat for the fact that four of his children didn't look like him, he loved that they looked like their mother, again, the woman he loved so much. He loved that they had the same hair he loved on Cat, and judging by it being her last thought Cat also knew that Ned loved her hair (and the way she looked), whether she ever came to the realization that Ned was perfectly happy with the way their children looked at all, or if she realized after he was dead and it was too late, it is unclear. But all those years she beat herself up over nothing.

Ned loved her the way she was, Ned loved his children the way they were, when they looked like him and when they didn't. Because when they didn't look like him, they looked like the love of his life, his darling wife.

And if the books decide to go with R+L=J it also adds another layer to Cat and Ned's relationship. Because Jon's mother was always a woman she didn't know but was still competing with in her mind for Ned's love for all these years. Turns out she didn't even exist. Turns out she didn't need to feel inferior to the woman Ned loved enough to not even talk about with her, no need to feel bad about the fact that she was able to give Ned a child that looked like him while Cat "failed".

At the end of the day, all the voices in her head making her feel insecure in her marriage never needed to be there, because everything she thought of as a problem with her were not problems at all for Ned. He was perfectly happy with her and their children.

[amber-laughs]

“If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that.” Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.” -EDDARD IV

love this passage. gives us so much insight into what ned really believes about robert even though he’s blocking it all out and trying to see the friend he once knew + some “ned thinks of jon as his son not nephew” fluff. he’s wondering if robert would allow someone to kill his son, bran, bringing him to lyanna’s pleas for jon’s life. yes, ned knows robert would kill ned’s son if it was in his best interest, he’s always known.

[goodqueenaly]

Why would Theon think that faking Bran and Rickon’s death would be a good idea? He has no idea where they were headed or to whom they might reveal themselves. It’s even said in Theon’s chapter of the search that if they made it to a village, all the people would rally behind the boys. Wouldn’t it make Theon look even more a fool if they showed up alive to Ser Roderick before Ramsey burns Winterfell, but after he killed the miller’s boys? I know Ramsey takes advantage of his desperation under the guise of Reek, but I think even Theon would have been skeptical that the plan would actually work. What is your take on this?

To understand Theon in “Theon IV” ACOK is to examine the simultaneous ego and desperation of a man clinging to a self-made fantasy which is actively crumbling in front of his eyes. Every way Theon turns, literally and figuratively, is wrong - and critically, he has no one to blame but himself. Yet unable to admit how thoroughly he’s ruined the situation, Theon doubles down when it comes to how to handle Bran and Rickon’s disappearance, choosing yet another terrible option in a vain hope of making up for all his other awful choices. 

Theon’s great anxiety in this chapter is what to do about the missing Stark boys - but Theon, being ACOK Theon, only thinks of how he believes this dilemma affects him personally. His first thought upon learning the wolves are gone is to worry what would happen “if [Asha] learns that I have lost the Starks” - a thought so terrible to Theon that he concludes “[i]t did not bear thinking about”. Theon later underscores his fear of embarrassment at the hands of his family, deciding that he’d “sooner have them [i.e: Bran and Rickon] dead” than unconsciously running to Asha at Deepwood Motte, as in Theon’s mind “[i]t is better to be seen as cruel than foolish”. As Theon’s hunt continues with no sign of the boys, Theon ruefully realizes that “[e]very passing hour increased the likelihood that they would make good their escape”, that “[t]he people of the north would never deny Ned Stark’s sons, Robb’s brothers” and “[t]he whole bloody north would rally around them”. Once night begins to fall, Theon’s fear of both crystallizes: knowing that “[i]f he crept back to Winterfell empty-handed, he might as well dress in motley henceforth and wear a pointed hat”, since “the whole north would know him for a fool”, Theon can only contemplate with dread “And when my father hears, and Asha …. [sic]”

Unfortunately for Theon, all the poor choices he’s made up to this point only exacerbate his problem. Because Theon decided to take Winterfell with a bare handful of men, he did not have the spare guards to ensure Bran and Rickon did not slip away. Because Theon seized Winterfell by force, its household sees him only as a usurper and betrayer of his foster brothers; likewise, because Theon has treated the people of Winterfell abominably, no one lifts a finger to intervene in Theon’s plan to hunt them down (until Theon has to literally threaten Farlen with the continued rape of his daughter to get him to comply). Too cruel and despicable to be a successful conqueror-turned-protector, yet too vain about his own momentary victory to abandon it in a typical ironborn lightning raid, Theon’s only advantage had been the fact that he held the Stark boys as hostages - an advantage that had seemingly literally disappeared into thin air.

Theon has put himself in a position where he has no good - which is to say, beneficial to his egotistical fantasy - options. He knows that he cannot realistically recapture the Stark boys, and that every hour that passes makes it more likely (so he believes) the Starks will be out of his grasp forever, and in the helpful hands of anti-ironborn northern neighbors. However, Theon also believes that he cannot return to Winterfell empty-handed, lest he become the laughingstock of his sister, his father, the castle’s household, and the whole North. Stuck in the wolfswood, Theon is as lost as Farlen’s hounds, unwilling either to concede defeat or continue on what is increasingly proving a fruitless search.

This is where Ramsay-as-Reek serves, to quote the late great Steven Attewell, as the devil on Theon’s shoulder, apparently offering him an easy (if no less detestable for it) answer to his problem. Killing the miller’s boys solves what Theon sees as his immediate problem; he can both give up the hunt and go back to Winterfell without being empty-handed, giving (so he thinks) no grounds for his father or Asha to complain. Pretending to have killed Bran and Rickon allows Theon to continue to the fantasy of conquest that began with his moonlit capture of Winterfell: he can spout pompous self-justifications like “Mercy was for this morning … [b]efore they made me angry” and “They defied me!” In answer to Luwin’s pleas and Asha’s criticisms. 

Putting aside how evil this action is on its own, of course, Theon’s decision does not actually solve his problem, as you note. Yet that is precisely the point: obsessed with the idea of successfully taking Winterfell in a daring raid, Theon has no idea from the first how he is going to hold it, nor indeed what the consequences of any of his actions there might be. Caring only about what can fix the problem directly in front of him, Theon simply seizes the solution preferred by Ramsay-as-Reek as a way out of what he saw as a personally humiliating situation. Worries about how he’s going to defend Winterfell from the increasing combined forces marching on his mostly undefended walls, or whether Bran and Rickon might turn up later, or whether anyone within Winterfell has a death wish for him, are not at the forefront of Theon’s mind in that moment; he only wants to get out of the wolfswood, literally and metaphorically, and the bodies of the innocent miller’s boys let him do that.

[alaynestcnes]

people can look down on shippers all they like but i’m having a blast in this bitch. rereading acok is just so much more fun when you’re just stumbling upon jonsa crumbs left and right like i just read “Sansa turned towards the sept. Two stableboys followed, and one of the guards whose watch was ended. Others fell in behind them.” and i’m literally giggling kicking my feet twirling my hair like I just read a makeout scene

[hylialeia]

I've really soured on the whole "if these female characters end up in any position other than one of feudal power and influence it means GRRM is perpetuating the harmful idea that women should be punished for their ambition" because while I am aware that is a rather disappointing and common takeaway in fantasy (and other) series in general, I am ALSO aware the strongest most consistent hammer-you-over-the-head-with-it motif across asoiaf thus far has been "FEUDALISM BAD" which is sort of hard to keep impactful when your endgame is "and then they ruled happily ever after and were so good at it nothing bad ever happened again". y'know.

[greenqueenhightower]

H: "It has eyes, though, I don't believe it can see." A: "And why is that so, do you think?" H: "It is beyond our understanding."

L: "People have eyes, boy. Yet his Grace the King, it seems, will not accept what his eyes see. This flimsy shield alone stands between you, and the headsman. The willful blindness of a father towards his child."

H: "The last ring has no legs at all."

Helaena's first prophecy in S1 E6. The more I see it the more I believe it refers to Viserys' terrible parenting and how it propelled the events of the Dance and the end of the Targaryen dynasty as rulers with Bran the Broken.

He really did start it all.

[vivacissimx]

A Game of Thrones' first chapter being Bran I and last chapter being Daenerys X, and those two chapters being in such strong conversation with each other will forever be what sells me on ASOIAF as a series. The set-up is just it. Consider: AGOT begins with an execution, of Gared the Night's Watch deserter who witnessed The Horrors. It's presented as a part of Bran's coming of age, this complex situation which he's now old enough to grapple with. Gared is sympathetic to us as readers (he witnessed The Horrors!!!) but his life is forfeit. He dies by Ice. After, Jon and Robb argue over whether he died brave or afraid. Ned says it doesn't matter—death is necessary, it is part of a larger Cycle which Bran will one day be a part of though he shouldn't enjoy it any more than he denies it... what makes it necessary though? What is this cycle—because if it's only about justice, well, Gared's execution doesn't feel just. Now we have our first true question of the book.

Daenerys X follows a similar format with a sympathetic Mirri Maz Duur having forfeited her life after killing an unborn Rhaego. Why? Well she also witnessed The Horrors. This time in the shape of a Dothraki invasion & the Stallion Who Mounts The World prophecy. She is set to die by burning (ice and fire babyyy). In the moments before, she appears defiant... but when Daenerys says it does not matter how she dies, then fear creeps into MMD's eyes. Again the interplay between bravery & fear. Again the seesaw, the balance. So now we can return to the first question. Why is this necessary?

Because only death can pay for life... and because you should strive for life. There should be hope and yearning for birth, for rebirth. Gared & Mirri have both given up on their own lives due to their fear while Bran asks, and Daenerys answers, that yes, you must reach for life even when life as you know it has ended. It's a coming of age for Daenerys too. When the dragons burst forth their newborn cries are called music—it's a song!! A Song of Ice and Fire. So yeah. Five fucking stars.

[ariamariastark1]

You don't know the characters better than GRRM

I know this is kinda pointless and stupid, but I need to say something, because I saw this comment I can't explain how much this person's audacity got me angry. NO ONE understands the story better than the Writer, and you don't know Sansa, Arya, and Bran better than GRRM. To say that GRRM blew up the story because you expect the characters to do something and be something that is not based on the books is ridiculous.

If Sansa has only three chapters in Feast and it shows almost no progress, maybe Sansa's not supposed to be learning that much of the 'Game', like the comment implies.

Bran is not supposed to have god-like powers, this is a massive claim that highly contradicts one of Bran's main themes: Humanity and Resisting Systematic Dehumanisation

Arya is most certainly NOT supposed to be a "deadly assassin but also a great fighter, foreshadowing for her show ending with her conquering the seas" at all, Arya has almost no real physical training, she has around 4-6 months of water-dancing classes, little practices and only wins/survives in the fights in the books because she is tinnier and quicker. The fact that GRRM could have written her training like OP said, "having lots of fighting training with Braavos dancing masters and having her also reading about Nymeria conquest and about sea sealing" but he didn't, means that that is not her story.

This type of 'fan' pisses me off, the type that ignores almost everything about the characters, that completely dismisses the canon because the Show has a different direction. GoT holds no meaning when it comes to the books.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

BRAN & JON SHARING A WOLF DREAM

While Jon is traveling with Halfhand's team on the Skirling Pass beyond the Wall, he has a wolf dream. What makes it so interesting is that Bran also appears on it.

At first, Jon dreams of the direwolves. He thinks how they used to be six but now only five remained ( referring to Lady's death) and how they are all apart from each other.

Then, Ghost ( or Jon who shares his direwolf's mind) howls. It's interesting that the direwolf who never makes a sound, is acting different within the wolf dream:

He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound.

It's Bran who listens to Ghost's howling and answers. Bran who is miles away hiding in Winterfell's crypts. It's interesting to note that the communication doesn't happen through weirwood because neither Bran nor Jon are close to any weirwood tree.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only...

A weirwood

The weirwood Jon sees is more slender than the usual ones and still growing- perhaps bc Bran is still small/ hasn't even started his apprenticeship under Bloodraven. Also it has Bran's face and three eyes- foreshadowing for Bran taking Bloodraven's place as the three eyed crow? Or maybe simply foreshadows Bran becoming the pupil of the three eyed crow, something he accomplished in ADWD.

Another interesting passage is about the weirwood/Bran's smell:

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something terrible. Death, he knew.

It's possible that death foreshadows the fate of Bran Stark. Maybe Bran Stark the child needs to symbolically die, in order for the Bran the greenseer to rise. But it could also hint to the darker side of greensight. We know that human sacrifices were performed in front of weirwood tree. And as the end of ADWD we also know that something sinister is happening in Bloodraven's cave.

Finally, Bran reaches out to Jon like the three eyed crow had once done to him and instructs him how to see through Ghost's eyes. Jon is no longer only inside his wolf dream but also wargs into the awaken Ghost.

We know that Bran is a more powerful greenseer than Bloodraven because he's able to also communicate with the people who appear in his visions. Here it's shown once again how powerful he is because he didn't even need to be near to a weirwood in order to travel to his brother's dream.

As for Jon, I think it's possible that he's not only a warg but also a greenseer himself. And that's why Bran is telling him to open his eyes (like Bloodraven once told Bran). After all, as far as I can recall Bran didn't have a similar shared dream with any other of his siblings.

I'm looking forward to see them interact more via shared visions/dreams on TWOW once Jon is resurrected. And I believe it's possible that Bran will be able to reach out to Jon even while he remains stuck between life and death.

[ladystoneboobs]

idt we talk enough about how a song of ice and fire is also the song of incest and cannibalism. i mean, sure, obviously both of those subjects are noted as present, but the saga feels much more known for its incest, which idt is fair or accurate to the later materiel. iirc, jaime fucking cersei next to their dead firstborn is the last instance of onpage incest happening in present tl, and after that it's all about the cannibals, baby.

(disclaimer: cw/tw sa, cw/tw rape, and i'm not counting cousincest as that's normal in-world even for non-targaryens and also still legal in many places in our world today, nor counting the faux-incestuous freudian mess that is littlefinger/alayne(sansa)/sweetrobin, nor any dark humor jokes and/or unfulfilled threats wrt forced cannibalism)

in fact pretty much all the active incest during the present tl happens in those first 3 books:

the twincest as a major plot point ofc, kicking action off when bran saw them fucking in a tower

and viserys creeping on dany and twisting her nipple

tyrion relating his backstory to bronn wherein he and tysha were both raped by proxy by his father, tywin (tho tyrion does not use that terminology)

craster still being alive to rape and impregnate his own daughters (resulting in dozens of forced incestuous relationships)

and theon unknowingly groping his own sister while she (knowingly) groped him in return

jaime's early pov recalled how he shut up cersei with kissing when they fought after bran refused to die

bella of stoney sept trying and failing to seduce gendry who is (unbeknownst to them both) her half-brother as both were sired by robert baratheon (only example in these 3 books where incest was averted before any sexual activity or incestuous contact occurred)

the aforementioned sept twincest next to joffrey's corpse

tyrion learning from oberyn about cersei twisting his penis when he was a baby

cersei's failed attempt to seduce jaime in wst, pulling out his dick for either a bj or hj until her talk of tyrion's death made him lose his boner

while incest is not exactly absent from the text after that, it seems to exist in the feastdance only in hypotheticals or past memories:

aeron's trauma flashbacks of his (implied only in published text) csa by euron

jaime still feeling lust when seeing cersei nude

and her fond reminiscing about them fucking behind robert's back/brief dream of them as a married couple before her walk of shame

victarion misinterpreting asha's offer of partnership as a marriage proposal and suddenly looking at his niece in a new way with "his manhood beginning to stiffen"

jaime's recollection of fucking cersei at darry next to robert as he was passed out drunk before cersei sent him to hunt arya (which would have happened back in agot and the point of this scene is more his failed hunt for a child just to make cersei happy)

arianne's "uneasy" memory of a past fantasy about being seduced by a man whose description is suspiciously similar to her late uncle oberyn

the aborted marital match of aegon/young griff to his purported aunt dany

illyrio saying (the now dead) viserys tried to rape dany the night before her wedding to drogo (another event from agot concerning a guy we already knew was into incest)

and tyrion once saying he wanted to rape as well as murder cersei

conversely, the cannibalism in the earlier books is most often only unproven hypotheticals alluded to as possible cannibalism:

old nan saying the others fed their dead servants the flesh of human children (which we have not yet seen with any wights so far, whether or not one counts walking undead eating human flesh as straight-up cannibalism)

the mystery meat in flea bottom's bowls o' brown which may or may not contain symon silver tongue after tyrion had him killed

renly's recollection that cressen kept stannis from catapulting their old master-at-arms by saying they may need to eat him later (which did not come to pass thanks to davos)

joffrey telling his people to eat their own dead (with no way of knowing if any actually did)

lady hornwood eating her own fingers (though bran's pov only notes them being chewed on, not swallowed. it's only in adwd that people talk of her eating the fingers.)

the mentions of the ice river clans being the cannibals beyond the wall (who are def not among the free folk jon snow gets to know onpage, making it just background detail)

bran's (possibly mythical) story of the rat cook

and biter chewing on people he attacked and other corpses (which seems to be just a side hobby connected to his killing method moreso constituting a snack than a full meal from a person butchered for meat. this tendancy of his is just background detail in acok, with biter chewing a corpse in the background after the weasel soup operation, and the hindsight implication that it could well have been him rather than dogs or wolves who had "been at" the corpses after the skirmish where yoren was killed)

while the feastdance feels much more in your face with cannibalism, having not only more total mentions of the practice but also more actual cannibalism (as opposed to the ambiguity of each and every bowl o' brown), for those who know how to look at the evidence:

jaime learned that his father's mad dog aka the mountain fed parts of vargo hoat to all his prisoners (including vargo himself) after recapturing harrenhal

and euron bragged about pulling a similar trick with the warlocks he captured (the only twist being that the warlocks knew what they were being forced to eat, which vargo hoat and wylis manderly etc at harrenhal likely didn't)

the elder brother of the quiet isle told of biter eating all of a woman's breasts at saltpans after she'd been raped and killed (prob the largest amount of flesh biter's confirmed to have eaten from one corpse)

bran and co. ate "pig" supplied by coldhands which had to be long pig aka human meat

brienne felt her face being eaten by biter in her own pov (which is so much worse than him chewing others in the background of the weasel soup scene)

theon was told that two ironmen at moat cailin were found eating their dead comrades

the astapori were said to eat their own dead while under siege by the yunkishmen

and then were said to do so again in refugee camps outside meereen

khrazz the pit fighter cut the hearts from his defeated foes to eat them

cotter pyke's last letter to jon snow said the wildlings were eating their own dead at hardhome

4 of stannis's men were executed by burning for butchering and eating other men (with asha wondering how many others had done so without being caught)

and ofc the frey pies with wyman manderly having his 3 former guests killed and serving their meat to their own kin and the other guests at ramsay's wedding while eating some himself too

two of these examples (involving gregor clegane and euron greyjoy) must have actually happened during the course of asos, but grrm chose to give us the gruesome details in affc, which was brand new information about men we already knew were villains but did not know were into that fucked-up shit specifically, unlike being reminded that agot-era jaime and viserys wanted to fuck their sisters. (and not unlike how adwd has the clarification of multiple characters saying lady hornwood ate her own fingers as opposed to bran's acok pov just saying she chewed on them.) it's as if after craster was killed and jc effectively broke up grrm decided cannibalism was the taboo subject matter he would fill the later books with, so we'd really feel the increasing danger of starvation-induced cannibalism with winter's arrival (and have no trouble believing rickon's new home of skagos really is a cannibal island). however, in-universe it feels like there's some sort of environmental balance connection so that the decrease in one formerly common behaviorial abomination just allows another such abomination to fill in the gap with a sharp increase in activity, like deer overpopulation resulting from lack of predators as if all the active incest somehow stopped more people from eating themselves or other people.

[duchess-of-oldtown]

Meera: Gods, I sure hope Jojen is ok

Bran: *eye deep in mysterious paste that lowkey sort of tastes of blood*

[atopvisenyashill]

Hiiiii what are your theories on what post-resurrection Jon with be like?

So I AM curious if he’s gonna be a bit more animalistic. I went back to look at Varamyr and I feel like Varamyr is a weirdo but he doesn’t act like an animal, despite spending a lot of time as an animal. Now you can contrast this to some of the Starklings who will do shit like growl and howl and stuff, and Jojen in fact warns against staying an animal for too long.

“Bran the boy and Summer the wolf. You are two, then?"

"Two," he sighed, "and one." He hated Jojen when he got stupid like this. At Winterfell he wanted me to dream my wolf dreams, and now that I know how he's always calling me back.

"Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you. When you join, it is not enough to run and hunt and howl in Summer's skin."

But the thing is - it’s Rickon Bran and Arya doing that. Bran & Arya are barely old enough to be self aware and Rickon is a literal toddler (I think all the Starklings refer to him as “the baby” not as in “the youngest” but as in he is TINY still). Jon is sixteen. I do wonder if he adjusts better simply because he’s older. But to flip back again…Varamyr is our only reference and Jojen explicitly warns against it. So will Jon have a temper? Will he growl, go nonverbal when emotional, like Rickon does? Will he howl at the moon like Bran and Arya? Will other people find him unsettling? Not in the “why is this grown man acting like a wolf” way but in that way that actual wolves are unsettling….you know the stories about how you KNOW if you’ve seen a wolf because they’re fuck off huge, they LOOK like predators, and your instincts tell you “this thing can kill me” in a way they don’t when you see a regular dog? What if he’s just unnerving to be around?

I do wonder about his physical look as well. Every person who ~comes back from the dead~ still bares the scars they got while dying. Beric & LSH’s injuries seem to healing human slow - that is to say, if they hadn’t received killing blows, Cat’s vocal chords would be healing at about the rate we see LSH start to regain speech, and Beric’s various cuts are scarring & healing at a normal rate. Bran is paralyzed. Drogo is…all of that. Will he face some issues with his body because the wounds are still healing? Will he have some more stiffness in his limbs, like the way his burnt hand has problems? I don’t really know how he would pick up the red eyes and white hair from ghost - Beric, LSH, Bran, even Drogo, they don’t suddenly change eye or hair color or something, and Brynden was BORN albino it’s not like his magic made him that way later - but I’m ngl I still kind of hope he’ll have the red eyes, I think it’s neat. He doesn’t need white hair tho I think that’s overkill.

When it comes to his priorities, I think we're going to see a huge shift. I know everyone ragged on the show for just having Jon be like "yeah i'm peacing out bye" bc there's going to be more hubbub than that but I do think Jon is going to feel incredibly jaded when it comes to the Night's Watch. I always come back to his confrontation with Maester Aemon and the fact that Aemon is distressed by his choice to not attempt to help Elia and her babies...

Maester Aemon sighed. “Have you heard nothing I’ve told you, Jon? Do you think you are the first?” He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. “Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children …” Jon was shocked to see the shine of tears in the old man’s eyes. ...“Once. So you see, Jon, I do know … and knowing, I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself, and live with it all the rest of your days. As I have.” His voice fell to a whisper. “As I have …”

There’s nothing he could have done and he knows it. AND YET. How do you justify to yourself hiding out at the Wall in safety while children of your house are slaughtered? How do you make your peace with it? You can’t! Love is the death of duty!! Aemon doesn’t ever make peace with it! He spends the last days of his life hating himself for being so old, being unable to help Dany, reaching out for the brother he’s long lost in his dreams. I think being murdered by his men, after months of arguing with them, of trying to get them to put aside their shitty little beef with the wildlings and focus on the real threats to their safety, and the knowledge that “Arya” is ALIVE OUT THERE, it’s all going to massively change his priorities. When you factor in the girl in gray turning out to be Sansa (don’t boo me i’m right!!)…I don’t think he’s going to hem and haw about being a brother of the night’s watch, I think he’s taking his shit, and he’s getting the fuck out of dodge.

But when it comes to his state of mind…again, I’ve come around to the idea that Jon is going to be resurrected 100% due to Northern type magic, and not anything Melisandre is doing. I’m willing to be wrong on this one btw, I do think there’s still a shot some funky magic brings him back but I think with all the build up to Jon actively warging, to accepting his magic, and opening his third eye, is in fact building up not just to Jon spending a long time in Ghost while his body is found and resurrected, but that his body will HEAL while he’s not in it the way Bran’s does, and he comes back to an injured but on the mend body.

If he’s waiting around for his body to heal though, he’s going to be spending a hot minute inside Ghost & greenseeing. Possibly longer than Bran did. I think like Bran, he’ll have his own mini vision quest as he wanders and sleeps in ghost’s body - and I think he’s going to find out Bran is still alive. See, Bran figures out that Robb is dead through a green dream, then buries the memory-

The dream he'd had . . . the dream Summer had had . . . No, I mustn't think about that dream. He had not even told the Reeds, though Meera at least seemed to sense that something was wrong. If he never talked of it maybe he could forget he ever dreamed it, and then it wouldn't have happened and Robb and Grey Wind would still be . . .

And we know Summer is aware of his scattered siblings, dwelling on them often. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that the connection works the other way. We also know Bran is still dwelling on his family, with his weirwood dreams focusing on Ned. Similar to Aemon, similar to Jon’s whole story, Bran struggles in balancing his love for his family with what he feels is his duty. Not only that but imo there’s a lot of connections between Jon and Bran when it comes to magic. Jon is the only character we see saying goodbye to Bran, which has always stuck out to me. Bran also attempts to open Jon’s third eye before Robb (presumably - i think if bran was talking to robb in his dream, he would have brought it up) Sansa, Arya, or Rickon (again, presumably).

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow…. Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And Bran has that near miss where he and Jon are in the same places at the same time, with Bran running into Sam & Gilly. Additionally, we get all those scenes with Mormont’s crow doing weird stuff and we have no idea if it’s Bloodraven or Bran - it’s very possible Bran At Some Point In Time has been trying to get Jon’s attention for a long time.

All of that to say I think there’s a build up to Jon and Bran being the first Starklings to reunite, but not in body, just in mind! While trapped in Ghost’s body greendreaming about his thought to be dead brother, Bran will have the opportunity to jumpstart Jon’s magic the way his was, and Jon will realize Bran is still alive - potentially even exchanging important information about the Others, Winterfell, and Jon’s real parents…Both boys return to their bodies, turn to the people they’ve sworn their lifetimes to and go “actually fuck this shit and fuck you too” and try to leave.

Try, being the operative word here, of course.

[amber-laughs]

When Bran gets his full powers I'm pretty sure he’ll remember that this conversation he had with Bloodraven and Ned was him learning that R+L=J

“I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.” “And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube. “It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.” A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

Which is odd because Rickon seemingly had, if not the same, a similar dream. I think it may have been a different dream though because he remembers it much better than Bran and doesn’t mention Jon but Luwin (and maybe therefore Grrm?) says they had the same dream implying Bloodraven came to Rickon too.

“Rickon,” Bran said softly. “Father’s not here.” “Yes he is. I saw him.” Tears glistened on Rickon’s face. “I saw him last night.” “In your dream …?” Rickon nodded. “You leave him. You leave him be. He’s coming home now, like he promised. He’s coming home.” A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

[lycorim]

Half amused and half devastated at how differently Bran and Catelyn describe Robb growing a beard, like Bran’s semi-awed because Robb’s his big brother obviously and “omg he’s so old and mature wow he’s an adult now,,,” but then Catelyn comes into the war camp going all “look at you, growing a little beard!! :,) Mommy’s handsome boy is growing up so fast :,(” and you know Robb sees both as true, trapped in a liminal stage of youth he’ll never end up growing out of, despite how hard he tries to look it.