#and there are problematic queer people

[maverick-prime]

rb’ing so i can reiterate that i only know movie!glinda and i am only very vaguely familiar with the book and the stage play, mostly in areas that have nothing to do with glinda. i’m open to a redemption arc in part 2 (which seems to be the case judging by the comments this post has been getting), i’m just wary of how the movie has been marketed and the issues of poor/inaccurate wlw representation in modern media.

if you’re in the arcane fandom or are familiar with those circles, you might understand where i’m coming from because of caitvi (i have similar thoughts about caitlyn but that’s a bit more complicated). the problem with modern wlw representation in media—and queer representation in general—is that there aren’t a lot of existing examples, and the ones that do exist often have controversial elements such as problematic characters, poor plot, and the idea of the “token gay.” most of my gripes with glinda come from a frustration about the poor quality of queer representation, especially when it comes to wlw relationships and even platonic female relationships. i hope act 2/part 2 can redeem movie!glinda for me, but for right now, i’m strictly an elphaba stan.

i’m sorry, but does everyone who’s seen wicked actually LIKE glinda??? are we actually for real serious????? right from the jump she’s characterized as a performatively “good” person, only doing “nice” things for others to improve her image and her reputation. she never actually cared about elephaba, which is made abundantly clear when she IMMEDIATELY sides with madame morrible and the wizard without a second thought. she doesn’t care about elphaba’s mission, she doesn’t care about her struggles as The Other and her sympathy for the animals, who are also Others (don’t even get me started on how fiyero seemed to be the only one besides elphaba and the animals to actually care about the Othering that happens in oz), she only cares about being perceived as “Good.”

i’m quite unfamiliar with wicked as a whole so my only perception of glinda is from the film (only pt 1 of the musical, apparently??), but i cannot find it within myself to care about her at all. elphaba is a truly, genuinely good person who’s vilified for her goodness, while glinda is an (arguably bad) self-serving/shallow person who performs goodness. fiyero isn’t the deeply shallow, perpetually self-serving character, glinda is. i honestly can’t understand how anyone can gloss over this by celebrating gelphie (and listen, there are definite wlw undertones and i’m aware there is some canonical lesbianism in the novel; i have no problem with the ship, i take issue with not acknowledging/erasing glinda’s corruption in the name of representation), ESPECIALLY in their time at shiz when glinda’s performative virtue is constantly at play.

elphaba can do no wrong and i love her. i stand with my canceled wife.

i could not care less about glinda.

[bottombaron]

oh ok so its the usual no-homo bullshit you always hear, good to know.

[dapg-otmebytheballs]

The thing with the "why are you making them look bad" "why are you finding reasons to hate" kinda responses when someone brings up racist remarks and microagressions both from back in the "fetus" era and all the way till WAD etc, it reveals the way too many people view bigotry as something that happens Elsewhere. Something that is done by Other People and not us you me the people around us the people we love the people we idolise. But everyone is capable of harm, and it's quite revealing with defensive attitudes like that that people assume we're calling to boycott or asking you to stop feeling anything positive towards them or whatever else it's built up to me.

Guys. Even we haven't stopped feeling positively about them (at least for the most part, and those who have, fair play to them we all have our own personal threshold for how much we tolerate). Like that's the whole reason we're around, you kidding? Nothing I watch is free from the problematic stuff. I watch comedians who make off-colour jokes but I still feel fondly towards those comedians without feeling the need to erase the fact that they make problematic jokes and need to do better. I watch shows with bigoted themes without feeling the need to scrap them completely but I also don't hold back on my criticisms just because I like the show. And if anyone else who enjoys these things mocks those criticisms or expects me to shut up about them I see it rightfully as the insult that it is.

These social issues are bigger than us, and the thing is they really do change at a snail's pace. But putting another hurdle in front of the snail by saying "this is just spreading hate, you just hate them, go watch something else then" isn't really helping that pace. It's just showing that because an issue isn't personally affecting you, you're seeing it as not worthy of receiving criticism.

I watch youtubers far more "problematic" than DnP actually. And I love them! And I see them grow over time, I see it reflected in how they talk in videos from years ago vs now and it gives me a lot of hope. But people change because they are given a reason to change. And trying to get those affected and hurt to not even express disappointment is not gonna get you anywhere except making it clear to us who is a safe person looking to make the space welcoming in a material sense and who is just keeping up appearances and waiting for us to tire ourselves out and leave.

[the-river-rix]

I love toxic queer characters I love queer characters who are allowed to do terrible things and be complex and fucked up I love queer characters who perpetuate abuse and trauma I love queer characters who contribute to cycles of abuse I love queer characters who are part of the systems that harm queer people I love queer characters who have internalized ideas that are harmful to or oppose queerness I love queer characters who make themselves a slave to their passion I love queer characters who force themselves into stereotypes and others ideas of being queer I love queer characters who are flawed and messy and problematic

I also love when queer characters have to reckon with their flaws I love when queer characters have to unlearn their own prejudice and hate to truly be liberated I love when queer characters are punished for their bad choices I love when queer characters work to change and make amends I love when queer characters break cycles of abuse I love when queer characters grow and learn I love when queer characters get to be complex and human and get to grow and heal and also cause harm because people and their life experiences aren’t perfect and linear and unproblematic and life is too complicated and all encompassing to make simple and clear and inherently good and moral

I love when queer characters aren’t denied the true multifaceted and all-encompassing and real reality of life

[stanley-rocket]

Didn’t watch the recent season of What We Do in the Shadows for my own personal reasons, but I highkey want to gently remind people that having platonic queer friend groups is just as important a part of the gay experience as being in a same sex relationship. Being single isn’t somehow, like, a lesser form of queer existence.

[rouge-the-bat]

exclusionists really love to tell other queer people to die bc of [checks notes] they dont fact check and just believe that bi lesbian has been coined (it hasnt) and the coiner was a terf (it wasnt) just bc they heard it from other exclusionists. and for some fucking reason believe that bi lesbian is a terf term despite a ton of the other people telling me to kill myself over being a bi lesbian have also been terfs.

"who cares to hear out fellow queers who are just using an unconventional label. i overheard an Unsourced Bad Thing so they must all die, obviously."

[tleeaves]

As a society, or perhaps just in the unfortunate communities I happen to circle through, I think we focus on sex and sexuality far too much.

For the record, I do experience sexual desires and attraction, at certain levels and at certain times. But even I feel we have way too huge of a lens on it. It gets worse in some fandom spaces too. Let's zoom out a bit. We could all stand to just love things a little more wholesomely, in my opinion.

My opinion is obviously not necessarily the right one. I got zero authority over anything. But I think we have better things to be pressed about or to write longass posts on.

[strugglingatart]

Funny, but not funny haha, funny weird that despite Gorgug being the one who has canonically kissed a guy that somehow Fabian, who only has expressed interest in women is the definitively gay™ to some of y'all

[dein0nychus]

i would make such a good republican white dad. i have strong opinions about how steaks and burgers should be cooked. i own a big stupid jeep. i have a casual interest in WWII planes. i like hiking and grilling. i love tactical aesthetics and guns. i want to live in rural alaska. but instead i was born a little transfag and not a white man from urban texas.

[demareth]

about this controvery about squid games season 2 trans character:

i would like to hear what trans people in korea have to say about it

because its really easy with our current western hollywood lense to condemn it but the creator has said he didnt feel the environment in korea was safe enough to find and cast a great already out trans actor. so what do trans people in korea think about that?

i can recall not too terribly long ago we were thrilled for ANY representation even if they were played by cis actors it was progress. its only recently the environment in american hollywood has gotten "safe" enough for trans people that we can have the priveledge to start demanding trans actors be cast for these roles. but it really wasnt too long ago that any form of representation, even flawed, mattered and it mattered Deeply.

so trans people in korea: what do you think about that? do you think they could and should have found a trans actress to play the character and its just an excuse or are do you feel yall still at that "no literally any form of representation at this point is progress"?

[hussyknee]

Apart from the fact that the whole discourse is a radfem exclusionist grift in the first place, we need "ally" in the LGBTQIA acronym so Robert Sheehan can sit with us. Where he belongs. I believe him when he says he's cis het, it's just that that doesn't make any sense and God make mistakes.

[martianbugsbunny]

self-care is divorcing yourself from HP

[crafteeauthor]

There's a handful of people on the internet rn who LOVE talking in circles about supernatural age vs "physical" age and whether or not real people deserve to be harassed on the internet for it but to be completely honest. First of all there's no winning there just block these people. Second of all that's like the least weird least concerning part of like ANY of the relationships in the show no matter which one they've decided is problematic for it

[uncanny-tranny]

I'm bringing back old queer euphemisms because some of them were so fucking good.

I'm not gay, I am both a friend of Dorothy and a Confirmed Bachelor

[myundoesntknow]

do you know the quiet conclusion all the calm sated sane big figures in this fandom have come to? the one you’re missing out on for your own peace AND the one that could make you easier to interact with? it’s very simple: in a fandom with little to no reliance on canon, there are a MILLION different versions of each character and a MILLION different versions of each relationship. and even within the same understanding of one character or one ship, there are a million tiny variations! because people are different and like different things and view things differently!

so instead of getting mad at people when they have a different opinion than you, or maybe fuck it you don’t even get mad at them it just really irritates you and pisses you off internally, preserve YOUR peace AND everyone else’s by doing the following:

1. interacting with people and media that view/portray the same understanding of these characters/ships like you do, based off of favourite fics, favourite headcanons and favourite fanart.

2. let the algorithm do its thing.

bonus: when you DO interact with people who have different opinions related to these characters/ships, or when you read a fic with a different understanding of them compared to your own: scroll. click off. at this point you’ll be more secure in your opinion and more understanding that everyone has their own that it won’t be difficult to scroll. like at all. because you won’t be irritated or annoyed or whatever other respective negative response you little shits (affectionate) (ish) have when this happens. you’ll be at peace and so will everyone else. and in the meantime, you can go try a different fic from maybe an author you know you always like the works of, or find works are said to be similar to theirs, or just go outside and touch some grass.

love,

myun ���

[that-cunning-witch]

I think something people need to understand is when we talk about an ancient culture or deity with a queer context, we are often not holding those topics and beings to the same standards we hold today.

Whenever someone comments on the queer history of Ancient Greece (for example), there's always at least one person who says, "well the Ancient Greeks weren't the best people" often referring to pedophilia or sexism, and therefore we shouldn't be talking about these queer moments. Because apparently, if we discuss them in any positive light, we are also accepting of the rampant pedophilia and sexism of the culture at that time.

Do you see what this creates?

If we can't talk about these queer moments in ancient history in a positive light, we must only be able to either talk about them in a negative light or just not talk about them at all. In other words, either paint queer history as a bad thing or just not mention it at all, as though it never existed.

Do you see the problem here?

This isn't to say that we shouldn't talk about the inherent problematic nature of queer culture back then. Yes, Ancient Greece had homosexual relationships, but they were typically between two men in an obvious power dynamic, aka an older man and a younger boy. A homosexual relationship between two men of similar age wasn't as common as we would like to think.

But to say we should discard or discredit all of ancient queer history because of these issues is just blasphemous. It is actually powerful to discuss these topics in a positive light while acknowledging the problems in modern time.

In our time, we have the ability to hold these discussions. These opinions. To be able to say "I'm happy there was trans representation in the Dionysian cults" and "I don't like how during Bacchic frenzies rape was the norm" in the same breath is powerful.

We need to show the world that we have existed since the beginning of time. We need to give a middle finger to every fucking person who tries to take our history and cleanse it for the palettes of the average cishet population.

But to try and sterilize the reality of queer history or, worse, ignore it all together in fear of being lumped in with the history that clearly is not okay, is what the other side wants. They want you to be in fear of queer history. They want you to stop talking about it.

Don't let them erase queer history.