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mcrmadness · 3 years ago

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This is just me talking about (my) asexuality and aromanticism and mainly about how I figured I'm aroace. I'm from Finland and recently turned 30 so my experience and "lgbt+ history" might not be what you know it as, especially if you are not from Europe, or if your native language is English.

Also this is highly personal, so I doubt anyone here will have 100% same experience. But that's fine because remember: we're all individuals here and these are NEVER universal. You're still valid even if you wouldn't relate to what being aspec is to me.

It might be IS a long post so beware, but I've just been feeling like writing down some thoughts so here we go...

What I have been able to track is that I was 17, in 2008, when I first stumbled upon the term "asexuality". I don't remember exactly how, but I just remember reading about it and immediately going "yeah that's me". But what I do remember is that no one talked it being about sexual attraction. Basically how understood it was: asexuality = sex-repulsion.

I was 17, and somehow I knew I was sex-repulsed, but at the same time also thought I'm just a minor, so it's normal to be sex-repulsed. But even after turning 18, I don't recall ever feeling sexual attraction. I didn't think of myself as a "late bloomer" but just as someone who just has no interest towards sex. At some point I became really anxious of men, however. Nothing has ever happened to me* but still I, for some reason, developed terrible fear of men. I'm afab and just did not want to be seen as an object, and it made, still makes me, terrified to think someone might look at me and have Emotions. I know that we can't control our brains, I mean, I can't look at someone and force myself to feel attraction - just like those who do feel attraction, can't force themselves to stop feeling attraction. They can only control their actions. But yeah, I also had horrible (sexual) intrusive thoughts due to my generalized anxiety disorder at some point, which did not really help. They got a bit better when I came into terms with my asexuality and aromanticism, but sometimes they still come at me and it's never fun, but at least they're not as strong as what they used to be.

*(Unless if you can count that as sexual harrasment when, CW, I was 11 and a classmate was "into" me and tried to touch my face and talk "sweet things" to me but made it into a show despite me being uncomfortable and usually crying cos as a neurodivergent I didn't know how else to react.)

But anyway, back to the topic. So for years I understood asexuality as sex-repulsion, but I guess it's because I, well, am a sex-repulsed ace. So if I'm sex-repulsed, why would I then look at someone and feel something if I'm repulsed by the thing anyway? Like, it probably can't get any simpler than this :D And I know today that it's not as simple anymore. But that was 2008, at school (in ~2005) they only talked about gays a little, on one page in a sex.ed. book that otherwise was maybe 100 pages long. Only one page. About gays. And it was basically "Some boys like boys or some girls like girls and it's totally fine." and that was it, but the overall assumption was that everyone likes someone. And also there were no romantic orientations. Liking someone = both sexually and romantically. Not liking = not a thing except when you were depressed or otherwise mentally ill, or autistic or mentally disabled (which is a SUPER ableist take btw). I don't remember teachers ever talking about this, but it could also just be my adhd, maybe they did mention, but I just don't remember. At least in my notebooks there is no mention of this, everything was very much heteronormative and amatonormative, and also there was only two genders. I don't remember ever hearing about transgender people, apart from foreign documentaries and in them they were always portrayed as some shocking freaks of the nature, and loads of wrong terms were used. And this is still the mid and late 2000s we're talking about!

So this takes us to the other part aka aromanticism. Back then asexuality was not only sex-repulsion but also merged together with aromanticism, because people didn't talk about romantic orientations yet. So asexuality was not only sex-repulsion, but also you simply just not wanting a relationship. Again, nothing about attraction, just someone who did not care about sex nor relationships. A "forever single", if you will.

This was already annoying me a lot back then because I was really annoyed by sex "running the world". I was so angry because why is asexual the only sexuality that doesn't like sex? All the other sexualities had the assumption of them always wanting to have sex. Like, even think about someone who is straight, you hear that someone is straight, and you automatically assume(d) that oh they're into sex too cos why wouldn't they be. This was really driving me nuts because I was sure there are people who want to have a partner, but never want to have sex! I was still experiencing crushes, and I knew for sure it was nothing sexual, so it annoyed me that just because I'm asexual, it means I can't have crushes. That's why I actually called myself as "asexual bi" for a while, because "bisexual" indicated I would have not been sex-repulsed and I wanted to point out that I'm NOT into sexual things, at all - and remember that this was still the late 2000s or early 2010s and I had not heard of romantic orientations yet! So I was up to something, there just were no terms for that yet! Today that would be called bi-/panromantic asexual.

I haven't been able to track the exact date or even year when did I figure out I'm aromantic, or when did I hear about romantic orientations for the first time. From the messages I've been able to find, I was already in my early 20s. Aka somewhere around maybe 2011-2013. In those, I have still been wondering what I am or if I even want to have a relationship, not being really able to tell what I wanted or didn't want. Again, no one told me romantic orientations are about ATTRACTION and not about whether you have commitment issues or not (this as a half-joke, cos I have severe commitment issues with everything :D I need to feel free!).

Anyway, I do remember my key moment with aromanticism, or the "aromantic awakening" as you could call it too, was when I was 17 or 18. Or maybe I was older? I don't know, I have time blindness. Anyway, I had this one online friend I had a "crush" on (I think it was just undiagnosed adhd's person hyperfixation) and I even told her about it. Everything just is super shady, from those years, I was not really on my best and there are so many overlapping memories that feel like different alternative universes instead of memories on a same timeline. Anyway, I just remember at some point thinking about this girl and I thought about some "romantic" stuff, like kissing, and I just remember my brain going "NOOOOOPE!" I had wanted to meet with her some day so bad, but when I started thinking about actually meeting with her, I started to nope the fuck out. All I had in my head was awkward embarrassing "first kiss" scenarios from movies and I just was not having it! I basically went "lol I guess I'm aro too, then XD" but I still don't remember when did I have this realization. Was I 17? Or was I, say, 22? I guess I need to go through my old MSN Messenger and Skype convos some day to investigate this further because I really want to know. I couldn't even find anything from my Tumblr from those times (I registered here in 2011), but I don't know if that's just me not tagging or Tumblr search functioning normally (aka it never finds anything).

But yeah, I am touch-repulsed. And kiss-repulsed, and romance-repulsed, too, (unless it's my OTP we're talking about). I'm still not exactly sure if I'm touch repulsed because I'm aromantic, or if I'm aromantic because I'm touch-repulsed. I only know that because of my sensory issues (I'm neurodivergent), I have never liked touching nor being touched. Even as a little kid I hated hugs and never liked sitting on anyone's lap. I only tolerated my parents, mainly my mom, because they were my safe place as an extremely shy baby/toddler/kid, who was especially wary about men. I can't explain the latter, but there was something about adult men that caused me (as a baby) to hide my face against my mom's shoulder if they talked to me. I did that to everyone I didn't know, but especially to men I didn't know. No idea why.

I also remember how my siblings loved to sit on people's laps and were always climbing onto their laps, and I didn't like this. And once my (late) grandma was so touched when she asked me if I want to sit on her lap (I was maybe 5-7?) and I agreed just to make her happy. I still remember how it felt, and I did not like it at all, but it still made my grandma so happy that I THINK she almost cried when she told my mom I actually agreed to sit on her lap. I'm not sure how real this last part of the memory is because I was so young. But I do remember thinking I do that for a change because I knew my grandma would be happy.

So yeah, my touch-repulsion is not exactly a new thing but just something that has been a part of my personality forever. But is that the core reason for why I only feel aesthetic attraction? I never look at people and feel like I wanna touch. More of the opposite, the idea of having to touch them or them touching me makes me go "eeewww". If you have seen that video of a gibbon shaking their whole body after seeing a rat in their exhibit? That's what I feel like when I think about touching or being touched, in just any way, also platonically.

The only time I feel "sensual attraction" is when I see photos or videos of animals. The urge to pet a tiger is insane. But the feel of another human's skin or muscle (or hair or whatever) is very repulsive to me.

I still remember how disgusting it felt to e.g. sit on a cousin's lap. We sometimes used swings like this, and somehow I was aware of it not feeling nice, but still not doing anything about it cos it also was okay? Only later I have realized I really, really loathe the texture of human skin. Or the warmth and overall feeling of a human body. For example, I was at least 7 or younger when I sat on my cousin's lap while we were sitting on a swing and STILL, after over 20 years, I have that all in my body memory. I remember how the thigh bone felt under my legs and how freaking disgusting the muscles felt inbetween. Also at school, on the 1st grade, we often had to walk in a line of twos after the teacher and hold the pair's hand so no one gets lost. My then-friend had so ridiculously dry skin that the only thing I could think of was how I felt like throwing up because the skin on her palm felt so damn disgusting. I still can feel that in my hand when I think of it. That's one of my "core memories" from 1st grade - how disgusting the human skin can feel like.

I don't think I have ever felt actual romantic attraction towards anyone. It's really difficult to differentiate because as I mentioned, I get those people hyperfixations easily. I guess it's the same hormones but I never really want to do anything with them? I guess it's the emotional intimacy that "attracts" me and what gets me excited, but I'm still not exactly sure what emotional intimacy means to me. I don't exactly fall into the QPR category either, in a way I wish I had a best friend whose best friend also I would be, and that neither would have anyone else who is "better" than the other one. But the only intimacy there would be emotional intimacy, nothing else. And I need my freedom so I wouldn't move in with any human being, either.

Sometimes I've thought my "ideal partner" would be a robot because if I get annoyed, I could just turn it off and stuff into a closet and leave there, and if I felt like not having a "relationship" anymore, I could just remove the harddrive and destroy the robot, or both. That way I would be the only one with the memories, and I wouldn't have to worry about someone out there knowing things about me, things that only the closest can know, and I'm really afraid of letting anyone close in case it won't work (also with regular friendships) because I can't stop thinking about how much I wish I had that MIB memory cancelling device so that they would again know almost nothing, or at least much much less about me. There's already one friendship that ended a few years ago and I still keep thinking about how I wish I could take everything back and how I wish they delete(d) all the files and drawings and stuff I sent them. There are so many things about me I wish I never told them, now as we are no longer friends. Back then it felt like "of course this is gonna last a lifetime!" but turns out that nope, not all friendships will.

I guess it's time to stop rambling. This post is really long already. If you read it all the way here: congrats. And thanks. You probably just wasted your time but... that's on you I guess :DDD But yeah, some thoughts from a 30-years-old aroace who has been aware of their identity for at least or almost 10 years now.

#mcrmadness' deep thoughts #asexuality #aromantic #aroace #aspec

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uh-drarry · 4 years ago

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Can i ask what the difference between ace and aro is? If not thats totally fine! I was just curious, have a lovely day ♥️

Of course!! I hope you are having a lovely day as well, nonnie. Thanks for the ask! I’m not an expert but I have done a lot of research since realizing I was both ace and aro but I only recently realized this within the last six months so I’m going to give kind of broad terms and they both definitely have more definitive terms depending on the person using them. Ace is short for Asexual. Aro is short for Aromantic. (As I type this Aromantic is showing as a spelling error, and if that doesn’t tell you anything about how underrepresented that community is idk what will). This got a bit long, so I am putting it all under the cut.

Asexual people feel little to no sexual attraction. The opposite of this is Allosexual, meaning you do feel sexual attraction. Asexual is an umbrella term and there’s many micro labels under it as well. This doesn’t mean aces don’t have a libido though. Some people have high or low libidos and are still Ace because it’s about sexual attraction. Asexual people sometimes define themselves as one of the following, sex favorable (does enjoy sex, but possibly won’t initiate it themselves, or they could live without it but are happy to partake as far as I understand), sex positive (this can mean the previous, or, like me, they encourage others to have sex if they want it, and believe safe sex should be taught, etc.), sex neutral (they might enjoy sex, but eh, that’s cool if they never do it again, or ever), and sex repulsed (might get nauseous at the thought of it, never wants to partake, depending who they are they might not want to see it, hear it, watch it, etc even within media, nothing). Back to feeling or not feeling sexual attraction, for example, I have never once looked at, say Chris Hemsworth or Zendaya, and thought “Yeah, they turn me on, I’d have sex with them.” (Honestly the fact that I really had to think to come up with names there, which I think it very telling, I’m laughing at myself). *oversharing probably but trying to help people understand, sorry* Despite the my lack of sexual attraction to anyone, I do feel things, for example, when I read smut or something similar. Ace people might get themselves off, have sex, or never do anything of the sort down there. That kind of thing is about feeling good, you don’t have to think your partner or whatever is sexy in order to do that. If anyone wants to do their own research, AVEN.com (Asexual Visibility and Education Network) is probably a good starting point, or I can rec some blogs here.

Aromantic people feel little to no romantic attraction. Very different from feeling sexual attraction, yes? Basically, take all of what I wrote about being Ace and exchange sex with romance and that’s an aromantic person. I will explain anyway. Just like allosexual, alloromantic people are people who do feel romantic attraction. Romantic attraction is when you want to do romantic coded things with people. Of course romance is a bit harder to define than sex, so it can mean a lot of things to different people. Kissing can be seen as romantic to one person, and another aro person could really enjoy kissing others for example. Personally, I get pretty uncomfortable in romantic situations regarding myself and someone else, which I would probably define as being Romance Repulsed. After learning what this term meant and reading some about it, I really thought of my experiences. I’m pretty sure I’ve never had a crush on anyone, relationships (the brief two that I’ve had) really just felt like friendships. I didn’t initiate anything besides maybe handholding because I didn’t know what to do, or I didn’t even realize that was a thing that most people in that situation would be doing at that point in a relationship. I felt very uncomfortable when a ex tried to take a kiss further than a peck, among other things. Again, being Aromantic doesn’t mean aro people automatically will never have or want romantic relationships. They just don’t feel those feels for people usually. Like AVEN for asexuals, there’s Arocalypse.com for aro people. I have less blogs to rec here, but I can rec some if someone wants it.

There are good examples of different types of attraction, I personally feel platonic attraction which would be the desire to be someone’s friend, as well as aesthetic attraction which is defined below.

People can be one, or both, or neither. I am both, AroAce. People in these communities often use the Split Attraction Model (SAM). Which would be like someone stating that they are Asexual Homoromantic, or Aromantic Heterosexual, or Aromantic Pansexual, among many other combos.

Because I do feel aesthetic attraction, pretty much solely towards women, I define myself as an Oriented AroAce, or Lesbian AroAce. If I ever did end up in a relationship with someone, I can only ever imagine it to be with a woman. Again though, that’s just one microlable among so many that are out there.

This is a huge list of identities and labels, it overwhelms be tbh, but I’m linking it here anyway because it’s very informative.

I assume this ask was in response my reblog here. Yes I get very annoyed when people treat these two orientations as the same thing, despite me identifying as both. As I hope you can now see, they are very different things. A lot of the time, I enjoy reading about romance and sometimes sexual relationships, but sometimes I want to read other peoples thoughts, fics, posts, etc about only one of these and the Aro/Aromanticism tag is flooded with posts about asexuality which really doesn’t help people who are trying to learn about aromanticism or wanting specific content.

One more point before I wrap this up. I read a book because I wanted to see if it’d help me know for sure if I was demisexual (definition can be found in the huge list I linked two paragraphs up, or on google), and it actually made me realize I was aroace and I am forever grateful for it so I will rec it here. It’s called Loveless by @aliceoseman and it has quickly become my favorite book. So if anyone wants to read about a fictional character realizing they’re aroace, this is a fantastic book. I related so much to Georgia, it’s crazy. Also her other works are fantastic.

Remember you are not alone! Experts believe that 1% of the population is ace (and I think it’s the same for aro people) and that might sound like no one but, guys, theres 7.8 billion people on this planet. That means theres 78 million people like us! I ended up finding a lot of ace people to follow on twitter as well by the way.

This might be a hot take to some but the A in LGBTQIA+ does not mean ally! It’s for Asexual, Aromantic, and Agender! And we do belong in the queer community because the queer community is for people who aren’t straight, cis, or amatonormative. Wow, I hope this all makes sense, if any of you are confused or have more thoughts, or I messed something up, UNLESS YOU’RE BEING APHOBIC, add your thoughts, or message me!

Side note: Do please send me recs of people to follow, books, fics, shows, whatever, I am always searching for new content within these orientations!

#this was a lot #I've spent more than an hour on this lol #asexual #asexuality #ace #aro #aromantic #aromanticism #split attraction model #queer #lgbtqia #lgbtqia+#aven #arocalypse

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aro-culture-is · 4 years ago

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Am I aroace?

Hi I’m just trying to figure this out

So I guess I feel attraction to people? But it’s like I don’t like intimacy at all and I always say everyone is ugly so people don’t think I like anyone

I just hate the idea of intimacy, but am not completely opposed to it but I don’t even know. I can say someone is hot but like me imagining myself in a relationship or being romantic is disgusting to me despite ONE exception

I just don’t know

Hi! I’m a little unsure how best to interpret parts of this, so I’ll do my best to give you some guidance. That said, I can’t tell you anything for certain - it’s your identity.

You say you feel attraction to people - do you split your attraction? If so, is it romantic, sexual, or both? Does it occur only rarely or in specific circumstances? If the answer to that final question is yes, you’re probably a-spec. If you experience little to no romantic attraction, you’re probably aro-spec, and likewise for sexual attraction and ace-spec. One exception would definitely fall under “rarely” imo.

The fact that you say imagining yourself in a romantic situation sounds disgusting to you would suggest to me that you experience romance repulsion. While I don’t think this is something only aro-spec folks can experience, I’d say it’s a pretty strong indicator that you are aro-spec - I haven’t seen alloromantic folks commonly experience it.

I’m unsure what type of intimacy you’re referring to. I initially started to answer this with the perspective of it being emotional intimacy, before suddenly realizing you could mean sex. If it’s the former, that isn’t a great basis for judging a-spec identities off of. If it’s the latter, I think I’m understanding that you mean that you find sex repulsive? And that you don’t find people sexually attractive, though you can generally judge their attractiveness? Assuming that interpretation, I could also see you identifying as asexual.

I do want to note: saying everyone is ugly is perhaps a statement that you may want to reexamine. There is a difference between saying that seeing people nude is repulsive to you, and saying that people are ugly. I suspect, if my judging that intimacy = sex in your ask is correct, that this may have been your intention.

- mod kee

disclaimer under readmore:

Hi, I'm an internet stranger. I am one person. I will speak from my personal perspective. I happen to be more visible in the aro community than some, and this puts me in a unique position where I am asked many types of questions. I will do my best, but I am not representative of all aromantic people, or even my specific identities of non-sam or loveless. Sometimes, I might say something and later disagree with that stance. Treat me as the unqualified stranger I am.

#not aro culture #aro #aromantic #actually aro #actually aromantic #ask #mod kee #am i aro #why must every way to avoid saying sex confuse me #i don't blame you at all anon but i totally wrote an entire answer and then redid the whole thing #cause it did not occur to me at all until i was like #huh how am i supposed to help with determining ace stuff without --- oh #Anonymous #text

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smol-grey-tea · 4 years ago

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hey, a quick question: do you think im still a valid aroace even if i like the concept of romance and sex? i like writing stories about people romantically falling for each other or having sex, does that make me fake?

Hey, Anon! Nothing makes you fake :)

I can understand why you would think that aro/ace = hating romance/sex, and most of the time it's true, but it doesn't always have to be! ❤

Attraction means having a desire to love (romantically, sexually, platonically, etc) one specific person. If you do this never, rarely, or only under certain circumstances, then you are probably aspec! This is regardless of whether you like romance and sex as a concept :)

This is called favor, indifference/neutrality and aversion/repulsion.

You seem like you are romance and sex favourable, meaning you enjoy those as concepts or could enjoy doing them yourself.

Romance/sex neutrality/indifference can mean you are just kinda meh, don't rlly care, just a bit neutral. I think I would say I'm romance neutral, since I guess I'd enjoy doing romantic acts with a partner for fun and shipping is fun sometimes too but it also pisses me off a lot and I don't wanna see it, so if say in in between favor and aversion myself, pleasantly neutral.

Romance/sex averse/repulsed means to hate them or just to never want anything to do with them in general. This seems to be what most of the community experiences. I might say I'm sex averse, since I feel like the label repulsed means I can't bare the sight of it. Sometimes it does disgust me and I'd never do it personally but I can tolerate it if I'm, say, watching a movie at the cinema where there's a sex scene. It'll definitely annoy me but I can just look away without throwing up or anything.

This is not to be confused with sex negative/positive. Sex negative means to be quite controlling over other people's sex lives, believing we should only have sex within marriage with our 1 partner, only have sex to reproduce, no kink, no sex work, etc etc. Sex positive is the opposite of that - letting people use kink, have more than 1 partner, have sex outside of marriage, etc etc. I assume the definitions of sex positive and negative may vary between cultures but these are the definitions I know of in white Western culture.

I hope this helps you :) and- you can't fake something accidentally! You can only be a fake aspec if you consciously choose to be.

#my post #ask #anon #aroace #lgbtq #neutralitea #thank you for asking ❤❤❤#long post

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angelofthequeers · 4 years ago

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hi, i was making an aroace sapphic character and wondered if you could give me any tips? :)

I can sure try! If anyone is uncomfortable with semi-explicit talk about sex (in terms of smutty writing and vague personal anecdotes) then feel free to skip over the asexuality part. I’m mostly going to talk about my own experiences as an aroace sapphic to try and offer more depth than just generic character advice. And this is my experience; not every aroace is the same. I’ll also refer to your character with she/her pronouns but they might not be the ones that she uses, so I apologise in advance if that’s the case.

So this is assuming that she’s fully aroace instead of, like, somewhere else on the aro and ace spectra (such as demisexual or greyromantic). I direct you to look up oriented, angled, and electio aroace to get a better idea of ways in which this entire package of aro, ace, and sapphic might come together - you don’t have to use or adhere to these labels but they do provide handy information in case you want a better understanding for your character. Basically:

Asexual

I don’t experience sexual attraction (or if I do and I’m demi like I first thought, I sure as hell haven’t noticed it yet). I never look at someone and think “hmm, they’re so physically hot and I want to smash them specifically”. A lot of my smutty writing was heavily influenced by other people’s smut at the start because, like...I didn’t know what was supposed to be hot. I didn’t inherently know what to describe when writing sex scenes. I had to rely a lot on other people and put together what they found “hot” in terms of physical descriptions of bodies because I don’t feel that kind of draw to people. Back when I was into Supernatural, everyone always went nuts over Misha Collins’ hipbones and I was like...yeah, they’re nice aesthetically because they stick out and they’d probably be sharp and cool to touch, and I incorporated that into my writing by often focusing on Castiel’s hipbones from Dean’s perspective. But I truly didn’t understand why they were considered so attractive. I wasn’t physically drawn to any part of Misha or Castiel (apart from things like his hair and eyes, and even then it wasn’t a sexual draw) and I had to absorb what parts allosexual writers found hot and then translate that into my own writing. I claimed to have a crush on Brendon Urie when I was 16 purely so I wouldn’t look like a “freak” to the other girls in my year, and I made that claim based on my aesthetic draw to his looks and assuming that that was what sexual attraction had to be.

(Look up aesthetic attraction. It’ll blow your mind once you realise that you can be drawn to people without it being sexual in any way. This is a very good definition of it).

And it’s important to separate libido (sex drive) and attraction (the draw to specific people) because a lot of aces can have an average to high libido and even sleep with people but just...not feel sexually drawn to anyone. So in the case of your character, you have to decide whether she’s going to have no libido and/or is squicked by the concept of sex, or if she’s got a higher libido and is drawn to the concept of sex, or anything in between. Me personally? My libido and my draw to the concept of sex fluctuates - sometimes it’s as high as what you’d expect from a typical allosexual, sometimes even the vague idea makes me cringe and my engine is flat - but I’m never attracted to anyone specifically. That lack of attraction is what makes me ace, because you can also get allosexual people (non-asexuals) whose libido and relationship with sex is like this.

There’s that misconception that ace people are pure virgins who cringe at the very idea of being touched and sure, some ace people are sex-repulsed and touch-averse, but a lot of us aren’t. Some of us might enjoy sex as a bonding activity in the same way that you’d enjoy yoga or another form of exercise; it’s nice and feels good, but it’s not exactly our highest priority and we could go without it for a good while if we wanted. Some of us actively enjoy sex and initiate it often. Some of us are okay with one-night stands because we’re not attracted to anyone specifically and just want the sex. Some of us don’t want to do it with someone else but enjoy some self-love every now and then, whether as stress relief or because that’s just the kind of sex we enjoy. Some of us are okay with touching someone sexually but don’t want that touch reciprocated.

Even if you’re not planning on putting your character into a sexual situation, it’s handy to figure out her relationship to sex and touch because that can give her another dimension, such as where does she draw the line with touching? At what point does she see it as going from non-sexual to sexual? What kind of touch does she crave? Does she not want any touch at all, either because she hates it or because she’s afraid that it’ll inevitably stray into sexual touching? I crave touch because I’m a very tactile person, but when I’m touching someone who’s not a family member, I’m always uncomfortably aware of how one tiny shift in position or one slide of a hand can make things stray out of my comfort zone and send the wrong message. And I hate it when people unexpectedly draw me into contact, such as someone suddenly hugging me. That could also be a dimension of my autism, but I do feel that my asexuality plays a part because touch from a family member of mine is always different to that of anyone else.

Aromantic

And then we come to romantic attraction. I...don’t know what that is. I mean, I do know what it is in theory, but where’s the line between platonic attraction and romantic? Some of us aros might enjoy romantic-coded things like kissing, yet not feel that romantic draw to a specific person. And what makes these things romantic in the first place? Dates are just a hang-out between people where you get to know them better. Kissing can be a sexual thing, and many one-night stands or friends with benefits kiss without it being romantic. Family members cuddle. Friends compliment each other’s appearances. All of these things can potentially be reshaped to remove the romantic element, and that’s what makes it so confusing for me personally to figure out wtf romantic attraction is.

Just like with asexuality, we can range from romance-repulsed to craving a relationship that’s romantic in nature. Some of us are okay with being in a romantic relationship with a friend who’s attracted to us in that way because we want increased intimacy and don’t mind it taking on a romantic tone. Some of us freak out when a friend confesses to us. Some of us don’t really want or don’t care for a romantic relationship but want to not look like an outsider to alloromantics. Some of us do it for the tax benefits.

(But in all seriousness, the world is currently heavily skewed in favour of romance. Some places only accept your next-of-kin if they’re legally family i.e. your spouse, and just being their good friend won’t cut it. Capitalism makes it so that we basically have to live with others to survive in certain places because living alone is inaccessible. Marriage comes with certain benefits that other relationships don’t. Queerplatonic relationships can be just as deep as romantic ones and incorporate everything that romantic ones do yet in a deromanticised way, yet they’re not seen as valid. Look up alterous attraction to see how love and attraction can be so deep and yet something that doesn’t slot neatly into romantic or platonic. Once you start seeing all this, you just can’t stop).

I had a month-long online relationship with a girl back in 2017 and I thought I was feeling romantic attraction. I was giddy to talk to her, I had 7-hour phone calls when I normally had anxiety around phone calls, I felt good and happy when she sent me selfies...but there was something about the relationship that I couldn’t put my finger on. I thought at the time that it was just because it being online meant that I didn’t have the physical intimacy (like cuddling) and that affected it, but now I realise that I’m aro and I was trying to force myself into this idea of an ideal relationship because I didn’t know that you could be close and not be romantic partners. I still talk to her and we’re still close, but there’s so much less pressure and panic now that I’m not trying to force myself to be attracted to her in a way that I think I should be. But I’m still drawn to her in a way that I’m not drawn to men and in a way that’s not just platonic, which is why I call myself sapphic aroace. And even if I figure out whether I am drawn to men as well, it still feels...different. More on that later on in this ask. But it’s basically why I just call myself queer and why I’ve given up on trying to find the Perfect Microlabel for myself, because I never will.

So regarding your character, the first thing to do is figure out where exactly she sits on the aromantic spectrum. Is she fully aro? Does she feel romantic attraction once in a blue moon, and who does she feel it towards? How close would she have to be to someone to feel that attraction? Does she constantly question what romantic attraction is, or does she not even care what it is? Does she want a romantic relationship, or does she crave close friendship? Does she not understand where that boundary between close friendship and romance is? How would she react if a friend confessed romantic feelings to her? Is she okay with doing things like cuddling, or does she fear that it’ll be misread as romantic? How does she react when people tell her to stop flirting or otherwise imply that she is? Can she tell when others are flirting with her? What even is love at first sight? Why is romantic love so much more important than platonic or familial or any other form? Why are people so obsessed with finding The One™? Why can stories only be relatable/attractive/amazing/etc. if there’s a romantic relationship in them? Why are the ‘greatest love stories of all time’ romantic? Why can’t those greatest love stories be between friends? What do you do when you’ve got a wlw or mlm relationship and you want to offer this representation but don’t want to feel pressured to make them romantic just because of that? Why even is love itself seen as such an important thing, like we’re inhuman robots if we don’t love someone in any way? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(Like I said, once you start questioning this stuff, you can’t stop. That was basically my raw thought process while I was writing that paragraph, and that last one about the wlw/mlm relationships is my current struggle with my original characters).

Sapphic

So, tying in a sapphic draw with being aroace, I once again urge you to look up oriented aroaces, along with angled and electio. I recommend starting here and here. Basically, what we feel isn’t romantic or sexual, and it might not be just platonic, but it’s something. It’s something important enough that we feel like it’s a key part of our identity because it shapes how we interact with people and it might make us feel separate enough from aroaces or aspec people that we start to question ourselves and where we belong. Going back to an aro who might crave or be okay with a romantic relationship or an ace who might be into sex, they might be an oriented aroace who wants this partnership with someone they love or wants sexual experiences with only those who would fall under her sapphic attraction umbrella. In the case of your character, how does her sapphicness interact with her aroaceness? How does her attraction to women or woman-aligned people differ from her attraction to those who aren’t included in the sapphic umbrella? (Look up non-binary sapphics, for example). Does she feel like she has to call herself sapphic/a romantic-oriented term and leave herself open to potential relationships because she doesn’t want to be alone, or does she genuinely feel that attraction? Once you add in the aroace dimensions, it changes the gay/bi/pan/etc. dimension to something that can’t just be defined as “attracted to this gender” and it’s something you have to think about to know how your character would interact with different people in different circumstances.

Good luck with your character! Don’t hesitate to ask if you need any more help 😊

#ask #aotq answers #aromantic #asexual #sapphic #aroace #oriented aroace #sexuality #cw sex mention #just to be on the safe side #aroace character #writing help #character help

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ayy-spec · 4 years ago

Text

Anything to Add?

The final question in this survey was a write-in section for people to leave any additional comments. 113 people responded.

Important/Particularly Interesting Comments

• I hope this goes well for you because you seem nice and if you have any advice for new to the community 15 year olds like me, don't be afraid to share because I'm trying to embrace my sexuality as much as possible but it can be hard when I don't know where to go or turn to to find what I'm supposed to do and where to ask questions and just fully embrass this part of me and it can be hard when I don't even know many if any aspecs so representation is great and it is helpful to hear your experiences and how you handle certain parts, so just keep doing what your doing because it is making a difference [note: 🥺🥺😭]

• i often consider myself more as just aroace rather than aro and ace seperately so i prefer seeing the blue and orange aroace flag over the individual aro and ace flags

• I don't really shorten my identity often with aroace, only when im feeling very romance repulsed and its been a while since I felt romantic attraction. I am a pan-demiromantic asexual. My pan label makes me feel more connected to the lgbt+ community bc it feels like my nonbinary and intersex status doesn't count either. I know I belong in the queer community, but the lgbt+ community is so sexual orientation focused.

• Thank you for having a wide variety of labels to choose from in the options!! I don't see the term aegoromantic very often on things, it feels nice to be known I guess haha

• Thank you for this, i recently started thinking about being in arospec and it was so relieving, all this time i thought something was wrong or maybe i was broken. I'm still trying to learn more about it, and I'm grateful for people willing to teach and help

• didn't realize I hadn't experienced sexual attraction until I finally did and was like "OH, no wonder all my other relationships felt like I was playing pretend"

• I dont often tell people I'm gray aroace. Not because of shame or it not being "as important" (I'm a gay trans dude) but I think because I just feel its a very intimate part of myself, as well as my romanticism and sexuality (in terms of like asexuality) feeling as though it doesn't always need a label. I'm fine just being myself most of the time, a lot of labels can be tricky for myself I think. I'm happy the label exists nonetheless though because Its nice to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.

• I'm queer! But if I'm getting down to the bones of it, I'm pan/ace. Still relearning how to be proud of that, after The Grand Clusterfuck years back.

• even though I would be considered to have an alloromantic orientation, alloace isn't really a term I feel any strong connection or attachment to

• i'd like to add that i do consider myself alloaro and use that label openly but i'd also not consider myself 100% allosexual. i'm questioning my sexuality but even if i do end up feeling more solidly ace-spec i'd still use the alloaro label

• Idk who else does this or if this is interesting enough to write down, but I thought I would! I use Aroace as a label. Other, smaller labels inside that would probably fit me better! Aroace feels too big, like it doesn't *really* define exactly who I am. But at the same time, I prefer using it because more people know what Aroace means (at least compared to myrromantic and myrsexual). I use Aroace so the public can define me. I don't typically use it around my close friends 'cause they already know my idiosyncrasies and where I really am. They already made their own definitions for me, so I don't have to make one for them!

• I'm still figuring myself out, so I leave myself at the blanket terms and hopefully everything'll work out in the end

The rest of the responses are below:

Comments Alerting Me About Typos (that I was then able to resolve)

• There's a typo in your "sexual orientation labels" question, because you have Aroflux listed and not Aceflux, but I didn't want to confuse things so I put Aceflux (which I do use) under Other. I also am polysexual (I flux between polysexual and asexual but I am always aegosexual) but didn't know if I should but it under Other anywhere since it's not an acespec label. I consider my polysexuality tied to me being aego/aceflux though, which is why I mention it here.

• the sexual orientations options are the same of the romantic ones ( for example, there's arovague and arospike in the sexual cathegory)

People Clarifying/Expounding Upon Their Own Identity/Experiences

· to clarify: i'm unsure whether or not i am demi or aceflux; so i use graysexual since both labels technically fall under that as an umbrella term.

• I’m still a confused gorl and I really only know that I don’t like sex it sexual acts but I do like romantic and sensual acts

• Sex/romance repulsed and I have aesthetic attraction

• I'm also animesexual and fictosexual (and romantic I guess but I don't like using the SAM for myself).

• I have never seen most of these labels, haha, I expect one of them is the one I always forget that's for being aro due to past trauma but people always assume it's romantic/sexual trauma so I don't use it and thus have forgotten it...but that's the essay I'm not usually up for writing: was biromantic but then had several awful life events on top of each other and had a complete breakdown and have been aro since. Unclear if it's permanent but it's been 14 years now. [note: I believe this person is thinking of caedromantic]

• I tend to use the word ace more than asexual because it's shorter, but I don't feel more favorably about one than the other.

• i can't tell the difference between platonic vs romantic attraction, and am unsure if people i have "liked" in the past was romantic, platonic, or a fake stemming from peer pressure.

• Also Gender-Neutral/Agender

• I’m gray-aro but identify more with being biromantic even though I know I’m aro-spec. As for sexual orientation, I’m just completely ace xD

• The fact I'm still trying to figure out my gender makes it harder to pinpoint exactly what my orientations are :( but I usually say I'm queer, and if it's safe: Bi Ace, and if I can get more specific: biromantic grey-asexual

• I also use a platonic label (biplatonic). I use it not in a friendship way, but more like in a QPR way.

• Thank you for doing this! My identity on the aro/ace spectrums has shifted a lot over the years and while I’ve just settled on aroace and queer for the most part, this community is so diverse and under appreciated. People who find joy in/identify with micro-identities are valid and deserve representation!

• I'm still figuring out my romantic orientation but it's looking less allo by the day lmao

• My romantic label is very fluid, but in terms of sexual labels, very sex repulsed Asexual

• Content with just Aspec cause it's difficult to pinpoint anything but cool with both asexual/ace and aromantic/aro

• I think of my romantic orientation as halfway between aromantic and homoromantic

• I'm a polyamorous ace, if there'd be a way to include that sometimes that'd be neat :)

• I am still questioning my identity

• I used to identify as 100% ace but now I have no idea other than that I seem to be pan-ace in some way shape or form so my identity is ???people???

• Sex/romance repulsed and I have aesthetic attraction

• to clarify: i'm unsure whether or not i am demi or aceflux; so i use graysexual since both labels technically fall under that as an umbrella term.

Queer Rights

• Trans rights, baybee 🤠🦂

• I just hope a-spec and aro-spec people will experience less negativity and hate this year <3

• Aspec rights!!

• aspec rights, baby

People Being Nice to Me (I appreciated this thank you everyone!!)

· :)

• Have a good day

• Uhhh, cool survey, nice to see a lot of labels.... good job! Nothing I have to add, it was great

• Have fun chief, thank you for your work

• Thank you for creating!

• thanks for the survey! I don't know too many aspec in person so I love participating in things like this about the ace/aro community!

• Thank you for what you’re doing

• just hi :)

• thanks!!

• I really love your blog! Reading your posts always makes me happy :) [note: thank you!]

• Good luck, have a nice day !

• I hope you're having a good day :)

• you're lived and valid af!! have a great day!!!

• Thank you for all your hard work i really appreciate it ☺️

• Drink some water Right Now OP

• Nope, :> hope the best for you.

• Cool survey, 10/10 would survey again.

• 💛

• Have a nice day uwu

• Nope! Have a nice day!

• Thank you for making pride flag edits! They're really nice! [note: thank you!!]

• nope, but this is really cool!!

• ❤️

• Have a good day.

• I think this survey idea is super cool! Definitely a great way to see what sort of aspec people are on tumblr :)

• You are doing the lords work

• Thank you for asking us.

• good luck!

• This is really cute idea :)

• I hope you're having a nice day!

• Good luck in your endevours!

• Thank you for making our community visible!

• Have a good day :3

• Have a good day!!

• Keep doing great stuff!

• Thank you for all the positivity I get from your blog! It's super helpful, keep it up :) [note: thank you!!]

• thanks for doing this. recognition is always nice

• Have fun <3

• Lots of love 💛

• This is a cool project, thanks for doing it and good luck! :)

People Saying They Love Me (and I love you, random a-specs)

· i love you OP!!!!!

• love you, hope you have a great day

An A-Spec Person Being Rude to Other A-Specs

• If you enjoy sex with your romantic partner then you are not asexual

A Person Who Is Not A-Spec Being Rude To A-Specs

• sweetie im sorry that you're so insecure that you feel like you have to make up new identities to feel better about yourself. if you are a lesbian or bisexual please know that you are welcome in the community, but other than that making thousands of microlabels like this makes a huge joke out of what was once an important and respected group. nobody takes us seriously anymore because of this shit. does labelling your identity like this really help you with anything? demisexual and fraysexual and all this are just fancy words for normal human feelings that everyone has. there is no need to microlabel it.

Other

· [variations of “no” (12)]

• not sure that helps lmao but still hope it does. all the best

• Axolotls (or as I like to call them, asexulotls) are amazing and I love them [Note: the man in question]

• Sorry, I can't remember the names of any blogs that do edits

• Ok random but the colors of the aro/ace flag? The blue and orange one? They’re gorgeous.

• I'm not so sure if I should use the aroace flag, I feel comfortable using both aro and ace flags, but I don't like the colors for the aroace flag :c [note: these are in chronological order, it’s a total coincidence that these comments are together]

• Curious to see where the survey goes

• It would be cool if you could also do some aplatonic-spectrum edits!

• there were fully half of the terms on that list that i had never even seen before. like, everything below litho down to no label was entirely new to me. at some point i will look into those! (but not right now, my brain is full enough at the moment)

• actually had to look up the majority of these orientations. Thank you for the opportunity to learn!

• Gonna reblog and follow and hopefully learn a bit more, about others and myself

Note: The only comment that is not listed in order is the first comment, which I put at the top because I found it the most important. It’s so important that kids and teens have space to explore their identity and learn about themselves. The reason I made this blog in the first place was because I was 19 and working on figuring out my gender and sexuality. Now that I’m a bit older and understand things better, I’m so glad that I’m able to help people in this way.

I make it a point to be very openly queer in my life and at work because I need LGBTQ+ people, especially youths, to know that we’re here. I’m lucky that I live somewhere that I can be visibly queer and speak about it openly. We are everywhere, and there’s more of us than you think!

Something that I really like about the comments at the top is that they show how diverse we are, and how people use words differently. Some people feel like they’re more aroace than aromantic and asexual separately, and others consider their romantic and sexual orientations to be completely different things.

I definitely relate to the person who identifies are myrromantic and myrsexual with their friends but just says aroace when speaking with people they don’t know as well. I believe a lot of people use different words depending on who they’re speaking with.

#survey results #aphobia cw

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aroacepagans · 6 years ago

Text

Alright so the survey on aro community needs from this post got 30 responses, and with it all being long form I don’t expect to get many more.

So what I’m going to do is give summaries of common themes and answers above the cut for people who don’t want to read through a bunch of text, and then I’m going to put individual answers under the cut for folks who are interested. Please note that these are all anonymous survey answers, and they do not necessarily reflect my opinions. I encourage people to have/start discussions around the topics brought up here so that we can work towards having a mutually fulfilling and cohesive community.

Summary:

What are the community needs of alloaros?

More recognition and visibility both within and outside of the aspec community, aro specific spaces where no one will assume that they’re ace and where they don’t have to be bombarded by ace content, safe spaces to talk about their experiences with sexual attraction, and a wider community acknowledgment that ace and aro don’t mean the same thing.

What are the community needs of aroaces?

Separate aroace spaces, space and language that allows them to express the interconnectedness of their aro and ace identities, a recognition of the diversity of aroace experiences including the experiences of oriented aroaces and aro leaning aroaces, spaces devoid of both sex and romance, and less infighting between the aro and ace communities.

What are the community needs of non-SAM aros?

New language that doesn’t enforce the use of SAM as a norm and that doesn’t enforce a SAM/ non-SAM binary, more recognition of aromantic as one whole identity, more inclusion of their identity within aro spaces, and having the ability to label themselves as aro without being asked what their other identity is .

What are the community needs of greyro/ aro-spec folks?

Specific spaces where they can talk about aromantic attraction, more recognition and visibility both within and outside of the aspec community, more greyro/aro-spec specific resources and content, and a larger platform within the aspec community to discuss their experiences.

What are the shared needs of these different subgroups within the aro and arospec community?

Increased visibility, spaces free from amatonormativity, safe and unbiased shared spaces for all members of the aro/aro-spec community, separation and distinction from alloaces, more in-person spaces, and a building of understanding and acceptance between the different community subgroups.

How do we meet all of these needs within an online space?

Better and more formalized tagging systems, creating more forums, chats, tags, etc, that are specific to different aro and arospec subgroups, creating more variety in online aro spaces generally, giving equal online spaces and platforms to all aro subgroups, and having open and polite community discussion about our needs within online aro spaces.

How do we meet all of these needs within an in-person space?

Use inclusive language, allow for smaller sub-communities within larger aro and aspec groups, provide resources for small, lesser known identities both within groups and at pride, push for more aro inclusion in wider queer spaces and create safe and respectful discussion spaces where everyone can voice their needs

How do we reconcile conflicting needs?

Civil and open discussions, try to find solutions instead of just arguing, and create separate spaces for subgroups when needed while continuing to maintain larger general spaces for discuison and community building.

Individual answers:

What are the community needs of alloaros?

1. A space to be aromantic but not asexual. As an alloaro myself, I struggle to relate to many aroaces - and the ace community in general - because my sexuality is a big part of my identity, right along side being aromantic. I want a place where I can discuss how being aromantic affects my sexual attraction without having to focus on one or the other

2. A place to talk about sexual attraction without being ridiculed or being called a player. Advice about how to go about getting a relationship that fulfills their needs without be demeaned to expected to evolve into romantic.

3. I'm not alloaro, so I don't feel comfortable speculating on their behalf, but from the perspective of an outsider looking in, they need more visibility, both within and outside of the aro community.

4. Recognition mostly, acknowledging that asexuals can’t keep putting their stuff into the aro tag, the fact that romance repulsed allo aros exist and are uncomfortable with allo aces putting their stuff everywhere

5. Aro specific places. I personally don't have to talk about sexuality in general areas but aroallo specific places/sites/tags for this would be great.

6. Dismantling the assumption that aromanticism is inherently linked to asexuality (even if it is for some individuals, it's most definitely not a hard rule that applies to everybody else), moving away from seeing aroace as the "default" aro experience and in fact not assuming one's other possible identities because they identify as aro at all

7. Not one myself - probably spaces to find safe hook-ups if desired, to talk amongst themselves

8. Less ace experience talking over aro experience. Also, not conflating the two identities as one.

9. I often feel ashamed of the allo part of my identity. I think more visibility would help a lot. It also took a very long time for me to even consider being aro because I was under the impression I had to be ace so separating those ideas would help.

10. As I’m not allo aro I can’t really say, but a lot of them have been speaking out and saying that they don’t want aro to automatically mean aroace, and that aromantism is not a sub sexuality is asexual

11. To talk about alloaro specific issues freely, and to not be assumed to be ace or to have to leave our sexualities at the door when entering aro spaces

12. Increased awareness that one can experience sexual attraction without romantic attraction

13. To be respected and given a aro-specific space/platform to discuss their needs/issues/etc

14. A space to not be: assumed ace, confused with aces, forced to avoid talking about how they want sex without romance and how that sexual desire affects them, etc. A space where they can find others like them to help them understand themselves better and make friendships and feel less isolated.

15. i'm not alloaro so i'm not going to speak for them but like. acknowledging that aro does not mean ace and allowing the aro community to exist outside of the ace umbrella is super important

What are the community needs of aroaces?

1. Recognition that aro is an equal and completely it's own community but that the community doesn't have to be completely separated.

2. Separated areas where uniquely aroace experiences can be discussed

3. Less infighting between the aromantic and asexual communities. You can and should call out hurtful behavior by the other community, but going into isolation mode leaves aroaces stuck in the middle of two sides retreating in on themselves. Aroace issues are aro issues! Aroace issues are ace issues!

4. Acknowledging that we occupy a unique overlap between the aro and ace communities that no other perioriented people experience (if we can even call ourselves perioriented, since we're basically forced to straddle two communities or else have one aspect of our identity erased); having spaces where we can talk about our aroaceness without having to separate out our identities, when we often can't

5. Well if you mean just "aroaces" who use it as one word for a convergent orientation they need a place where mixing up and "confusing" an experience as related to their aromanticism when it's more about being ace doesn't get aros yelling at them in the Tumblr tags that they shouldn't tag it aromanticism and they're stupid/horrible hurting aros when they do. They need a place where they can talk about their experiences as very interconnected and inseparable without offending people for whom they are separable. They likely mostly want to learn from allo aros and allo aces what it feels like to be allo so they better understand more of society and don't want to feel alienated from either community of aces as a whole or aros as a whole.

6. I just want some safe wholesome space. Since I joined the aro community on tumblr couple years back, it just feels like the community is defined by discourse, negativity, fights, petty disagreements and drama. I understand, the community is still in diapers and we need to figure ourselves out, but I feel like we've lost the way. Do we need to react to every troll and hater? Is seriously someone offended by them? Why do we legitimise and acknowledge them as part of the discussion? It's like giving an equal platform to scientists and flat earthers. Is this really how we want to be? If you try to think away all the drama stuff, what's left? Is there anything left at all?

7. The freedom to find their place in both ace/aro spaces and for people to allow them to use/not use the SAM as they see fit. Perhaps giving non-SAM aroaces some new language?

8. More community for aro aces. As an aro ace myself I always have to divide time between the aro and ace communities

9. a space where both identities are recognised as equally important - a space where aro identity isn't seen as a subset of ace identity, or deriving from it - somewhere they can express romance and sex repulsion or lack of thereof

10. A term that isn’t AroAce. Something that is not just a combination of aromantic and asexual. But to also not be a sub set of allo aro or allo ace. We shouldn’t need to choose which identity is more important and we shouldn’t have to use the SAM.

11. I think to recognize that there is an aroace spectrum. You can be mlm, wlw, nblnb, etc and still be aroace

12. Content that doesn't rely on "but we still experience x attraction!", tips for living alone/single, also tips for finding/being in a committed relationship such as a qpr (I personally want a relationship but I have no idea how to even start looking for one)

13. I am not aroace so my opinion should not carry as much weight as others but from what my aroace friends irl say, I think we need more recognition for oriented aroaces

14. To be able to talk about the intersection of our identities and how we are uniquely impacted by aphobia

15. Understanding that not all aroaces feel that their two identifiers hold equal value to them (e.g. aromantic as a primary identity with asexuality as a secondary identity). Letting people focus on the one identity over the other is not an exclusion on the other identity; their preferred identity is just more meaningful in their lifes and/or personal growth.

16. Available spaces that are not only sexualised spaces (eg clubs), options to avoid discussion of sex, being hit on if desired (colour code in mixed irl aro-spaces?)

17. Aroaces need a space where they don't have to pick between their aro and ace identities, as well as a space where sex and/or romance repulsed aroaces dont have to deal with romance or sex in any way

18. Idk, not aro ace but I would say recognition as well

19. Full disclosure, I've mostly stopped participating in the ace/aro communities of late (though I haven't stopped reading it) because it felt like every time aroaces spoke up, we were brushed aside or shrugged off because we were the "privileged" ones (in both aro and ace circles). That means I'm a bit out of the loop. I identify far more with my aromanticism than my asexuality, but I've definitely been made to feel that I'm somehow a negative influence on both communities because I technically belong to both. I feel bad enough discussing my identity outside of the ace and aro communities, particularly among queer friends - it feels like when I bring up aroace experiences, it's like I've doused the fire of whatever conversation I was in, and I don't feel like replicating that feeling by trying to talk about it on the 'net, too. So, I guess we mostly need acceptance. We need spaces where alloaros can talk about their experiences without feeling bombarded by aroaces, we need spaces where aroaces can talk about our experiences without feeling like we're marauding on allo experiences, and we need places where both sides can talk about our aromanticism as one community. We as aroaces need to do better about determining when to discuss our issues, and making sure we're discussing them within the communities they're relevant to, as well. I have a pretty solid handle on which aspects of my identity are informed by my aromanticism and which are informed by my asexuality, but that's not a universal experience. Plenty of people have issues separating the two, especially when they're missing both sexual AND romantic attraction. It's hard to determine which of those "missing" pieces are supposed to fit where, and it's important to understand and find a place for these people to post, as well. But ultimately there needs to be more acceptance and openess all around. And I have no idea how we can do all of this.

20. Often aro and ace-ness are inseparable to aroaceness and thus unless something is very specifically about sexual attraction aroaces need to have a sense of flexibility

21. Honestly, as a greyro-ace myself, I feel like aroaces are sort of the face of the community

What are the community needs of non-SAM aros?

1. it's all in the name 'non-SAM' for me. that it is assumed everyone has multiple attractions and/or labels themselves by them. it's use rather implies that the words aro or aromantic or aro-spec /don’t/ automatically include us. it's obviously a perspective change needed here, maybe a new term or descriptor as well? i don’t kno really but i hate the specification of — the expected /need to/ specify — non-SAM.

2. I'm gonna skip the other Qs b/c I don't think I can speak for SAM-using folks. Anyway, as a non-SAM aro I think some of my big things are 1. Recognizing that aromanticism can be its own identity without being split or modified 2. Ending the default assumption that I am ace, identify as ace, and know what the heck ace people need in their communities. 3. Recognizing and respecting aros who don't want or desire QPPs and making it clear that non-QPP friendships and family are not only as good as but can be just as fulfilling as other relationship models. 4. Including non-SAM people as part of our basic and default definitions of asexuality and aromanticism. 5. Making space for discussions of why microlabels don't work for everyone and why the SAM doesn't work for everyone 6. Making an active effort to make aspec spaces more accessible to folks who have just learned about aspec stuff, folks with cognitive and language disabilities, and non-native English speakers. And, like on a broad note, my autism makes it difficult for me to break my identity into tiny pieces. The aspec community's focus on microlabels and the split attraction model, plus the fact that the people participating in discussions often seem to be younger than me and just barely in the process of developing an identity that I've been comfortable in for many years, makes me feel isolated and alienated from the community. When I do participate, the complex and high-entry-level jargon that some members of the community use make it difficult for me to participate in community interactions, which leaves me feeling even more alienated.

3. again, not speaking over other people, but it's important to recognize that aromanticism is a full identity on its own and doesn't inherently require use of the SAM. breaking down the alloaro/aroace binary

4. It seems they want to just talk about aromanticism without having people judge which type of aro they are for if their views count etc. They want more than anyone for aces to be better allies when it comes to LGBTQIA arguing where the A doesn't mean Ally and rather asexual that there needs to be room for the queerness of aromanticism in the LGBTQ+ umbrella. They more than anyone will always need aromantic specific everything - recognition, representation, communities, where no one expects you to also be something else

5. For myself, mostly non binary language and less assumptions that all aros ID with the SAM would be helpful, also acknowlement that non-SAM aros may have differing experiences as a group. This sounds small, and honestly it is, but the unintended consequence of binary language addressing only 'aroaces' and 'aroallos' that I've seen is that spaces can become increasingly polarized between different split attractions and then I've just kind of slipped through the gap in between. It's just my personal experience, of course, but honestly just including this box in the survey is a great start.

6. In-space focuses and new language.

7. More awareness

8. A space where we don't feel the need to express ace/allo identity alongside our aro identity

9. To not get caught in an alloaro Vs aroace war that they can't pick a side for, is probably one.

10. We just need ppl to stop kind of adding us in a sentence in their post or say 'not everyone uses the sam' I wish we could have more discussions on why the sam doesn't really work for us or how we're left out from the community as a whole.

11. Acceptance of just being aro. Aromantic is a whole independent identity despite where it was born.

12. A space to talk about how the ace community has harmed them or made them feel unwelcome without aroaces or alloaces acting like it is an insult

What are the community needs of greyro/ aro-spec folks?

1. Understanding that not everyone is completely aro or that their romantic attraction levels change.

2. providing spaces to talk about experiences with romantic attraction/relationships

3. I'm in this group. I need to feel like it's ok that aromanticism stay a spectrum and some aros are "more ace" (I'm sex-averse etc) than clearly aro (I might choose to date) and to not feel like people are accusing me of being alloromantic when I don't feel alloro. If people make sweeping statements about aros that don't include me or sweeping statements about alloros that do cover my experiences, it is hurtful and invalidating of my identity. And it even can make me doubt myself which isn't fair after I've spent years figuring myself out. I want a happy community that can get along and not hate aces preemptively before any of the select aces they're talking to did anything wrong. Who can forgive aces who make mistakes but who want to be better allies. I'm an ace and an aro-spec person. I'm an ally to aros who aren't gray but all forms of people being an ally takes some learning curve. Understanding that can go a long way.20 hours agoMore awareness21 hours agomore discussion about our orientations, more material for us in general, people getting a platform to share heir experiences. i feel kind of isolated in the aro community because there isnt a lot thats directed at us and our experiences that are neither really aro nor alloa day ago- a space where romance repulsion and simultaneous lack of thereof is acknowledgeda day agoIdk I'm not on the speca day agoMore content for the smaller identities under the spectrum umbrella would probably be nice, also asexuality being jammed together with aromanticism can be annoying sometimes especially if the post only really has to do with one or the other. Visibility in stories and media and such would also be greata day agoacknowledge that not everyone is strictly ace or allo. Like alloaros, allow us to talk about whether we want romantic partners or how our experiences differ from non grayro aros.a day agoN/aa day agoTheir own voice for their complicated feelings about being on the aromantic spectrum.a day agoNot greyro, likewise not my place to comment.2 days agoThe aro community is actually already pretty good about this, but it's cool that romance still happens for some of us and that out voices are allowed to at the very least be on our own space without criticism.2 days agoUh2 days agoArospecs need to be able to talk about their approach to romance, as it is very often very separate from the way allo people experience romantic attraction2 days agoI think both grey and demi aromanticism and asexuality in general need more recognition 2 days ago

4. More awareness

5. more discussion about our orientations, more material for us in general, people getting a platform to share heir experiences. i feel kind of isolated in the aro community because there isnt a lot thats directed at us and our experiences that are neither really aro nor allo

6. a space where romance repulsion and simultaneous lack of thereof is acknowledged

7. More content for the smaller identities under the spectrum umbrella would probably be nice, also asexuality being jammed together with aromanticism can be annoying sometimes especially if the post only really has to do with one or the other. Visibility in stories and media and such would also be great

8. acknowledge that not everyone is strictly ace or allo. Like alloaros, allow us to talk about whether we want romantic partners or how our experiences differ from non grayro aros.

9. Their own voice for their complicated feelings about being on the aromantic spectrum.

10. The aro community is actually already pretty good about this, but it's cool that romance still happens for some of us and that out voices are allowed to at the very least be on our own space without criticism.

11. Arospecs need to be able to talk about their approach to romance, as it is very often very separate from the way allo people experience romantic attraction

12. I think both grey and demi aromanticism and asexuality in general need more recognition

What are the shared needs of these different subgroups within the aro and arospec community?

1. what we need across the board is recognition, compassion, and dissemination.

2. More aro recognition and its own and equal but not completely seperate from ace (for aro aces) community.

3. To discuss their experiences with the lack of romantic attraction and amatonormativity, amongst other General arospec issues

4. safe spaces to talk about being aro and all of the ways it intersects with other aspects of our identity; representation and advocacy

5. Neutral aro-spec spaces where all intersectionality is equally accepted but also not the main topic or qualifier; recognition of a broad range of experiences; recognition of specific language and acknowledgment of their existences; facilitated ability to speak about more specific or 'niche' topics

6. Recognition in queer spaces and healthy dialogue about language.

7. i think we all want a platform for our specific topics and we want recognition, but also community

8. A space where romance repulsion is acknowledged and respected - a space where aro identity is prioritised, no matter what other identities go along with it, if there are any at all

9. To move forward in our activism to make aromanticism more well known and more accepted in society?? And to have a safe place to go after a day of dealing with amatonormativity and aphobia.

10. To make ourselves exist outside the definition of asexual

11. I think all the communities/identities need to recognize that there is a problem. If we unite with each other and have so much love and understanding in the form of unity, I think a lot of these problems will resolve themselves.

12. Visibility?

13. make sure we understand each other's experiences and what makes everyone feel included / excluded. We need to make that we sure we own up if we excluded someone, and that we try to fix it.

14. Visibility is my greatest concern for all aspects of aro and arospec problems.

15. Aces need to stop speaking for them. Aro-spec and aro people can speak for themselves on their own experiences. Additionally, aroaces need to focus more on the aro identity (whether it's primary or secondary to them) when it involves aro discourse. They can have a focus on their ace identity only with the exception that both identities are heavily tied to each other and both identities are discussed. Again, this is specifically for aro-specific discourse.

16. Discussion of amatonormativity, experiences with pressure to find partners

17. A creation of a unified aro space that includes and supports *anybody* identifying as aro or arospec

18. The validity of aro identities shaping gender identities. I believe I'm nb in large part because of aromanticism.

19. All four of these groups need visibility and more in person communities

20. Allo aces need to stop taking over everything is the overarching problem when you think about it, they also need to stop throwing aros under the bus

21. We ALL need more visibility. We need voices that aren't reliant on the ace community to speak for us as an afterthought, and I say that AS an ace. We need to talk about aromanticism as a whole. And we need to do so proudly and informatively. I've noticed that it's really, really hard to talk about aromanticism without making it sound like I'm demonizing romantic attraction, and that's a dangerous treading ground within the queer community. There's been a lot of negatively portraying queer romantice from outside of the community, and we need to make sure we're not stepping on those land mines, but we do need our voices heard on aromanticism and amatonormativity, too. Also, we need to hold fast to QPRs and squishes (and, imo, aplatonic) and not let those ideas get swept out with the discourse trash. We also need to support both the aros who want and have QPRs, and the aros who want nothing to do with them. I see a lot of support for aros in various forms of non-romantic (and sometimes romantic) relationships, but very little for aros who choose to fly solo, and what that means in a world that expects you to pair up.

22. I do think we need to be more openly vocal about our separateness from the ace community, though it seems to be tearing aroaces apart at the seams

23. A space to discuss aromanticism - however people experience it - in a space were others are opening and welcoming. Possibly also older members of the community giving advice to newer members who are struggling to come to terms with their aromanticism in a society so focused on romance

24. I feel like a lot of aros are frustrated with their experiences being mislabeled as ace experiences, or having the assumption that aro and ace experiences are basically the same

How do we meet all of these needs within an online space?

1. make sure you aren’t in an echochamber? share/create content for orientations other than your own? be kind? remember that when we're fighting it's kind of over scraps and we deserve better? i'm not sure honestly but i really think a lot of this comes down to perspective. plus remember the block button exists lol. i'm talking about things all on a personal, individual level and i don’t kno how to effect anything otherwise. how about a content creation week where the subject is an orientation other than your own? with emphasis on asking questions to get shit right. it'd be a learning experience that builds community. i can't think of a thing to answer this question on a larger scale ://

2. We accept that some people see their aro and/or ace identitie/s seperate and some don't. Also that some only have one of these identities. And we spread aro recognition.

3. Equal education and resources for all parts of the aro spectrum

4. Cut it out with the pack instinct. Aces and aros snarling at eachother really freaks out aroaces.

5. it's impossible to curate a monolithic online space that will meet the needs of every single member of the aro community. what's important is acknowledging your own biases and hearing out the perspectives of others who differ from you, and not generalizing your own experiences/needs/perspectives to the community as a whole. we can create more subgroup-oriented spaces all we want, but at the end of the day we're still part of the same larger aro community and in order for that to work out the best thing we can do is just listen to each other.

6. Appropriate tagging has been brought up before, perhaps a reworked umbrella tag system? Again more neutral spaces; appropriate tagging for repulsion and aversion and on the other end acceptance of a variety of topics (i.e. some people will be talking about sex and that's good and healthy, as long as it's tagged there shouldn't be an issue with that); more specific and intersectional spaces; less verbal conflation of ace and aro though I think that's been getting better? Then again a big problem is the aroace split between two communities. I unfortunately do not have any ideas for that

7. Provide and Aro-specific online space similar to AVEN.

8. trying to give a more equal focus to different subgroups maybe? coming together and caring about those whose experiences are slightly different from ours and giving them a platform too. encouraging diversity

9. i'm not sure but it starts by making spaces outside of discourse. blogs like "aro-soulmate-project" are especially important to me because they address not only intra and outside community issues, but because they create aro identity at the same time people interact.

10. Idk put everything in the tag it belongs in (aroace content in aro, ace and aroace tags, general aro content in aro aroace and alloaro tags, and alloaro content in aro and alloaro tags, etc) and stop harassing each other. Groups might benefit from ace chat channels and allosexual chat channels? But idk if that's too divisive in some opinions

11. Group chats? More posts combining the communities? Spreading the love to everybody everywhere!

12. Open discussion

13. Since aro communities are extremely small and have been largely ignored-even by the a-spec community-it is up to the a-spec (yes, this includes alloaces) community to be more inclusive when making a-spec positive/information posts while also making more efforts to reblog diverse aro discourse so that aro people get a chance to speak.

14. Different tags/ smaller chatrooms. Probably tags people can follow or block

15. Better tagging systems, breaking down assumptions and not projecting one's one experience of identity onto everybody else who happens to be aro, creating sub-communities that are specifically suited for a specific subgroup's needs while still being united as the general aro community

16. On tumblr, proper tagging of content.

17. I think something that would actually help is like an aroace specific forum. We have arocalypse but that seems to be mostly alloaros and I want a forum where I can be aroace and not have to pick sides

18. Tag things accordingly

19. As I mentioned before, I'm not really involved in community discussions beyond reading about them, but coming up with a standard tagging system seems to be a start.

20. Often these needs have been met, though there could be a better job of say tagging 'romance' for repulsed aros and we need to open up space for both romo repulsed and positive to speak at the same time

21. I don't know. The internet is too big to manage. I think of the internet as more of many different spaces

How do we meet all of these needs within an in-person space?

1. Represent everyone, let people speak, let people correct you, aim to make friends, remember that we're all under the A together.

2. Same as above

3. Stop generalizing and start being inclusive with language. There’s a big difference.

4. Listen, if no one ever walks up to me and says "Hey, [name], you're ace right?" just because I told them I was aro and they forgot, I will be happy.

5. i suppose the same rules apply. listening, providing spaces for subgroups to talk about specific issues, etc.

6. Similar to previous answer, but spaces advertised as neutral or with multiple groups need to be more explicit in inclusion of a variety of experiences and topics. There are ways to manage this so everyone is in understanding and comfortable, namely just good communication (hence being explicit) and systems of feedback

7. Queer spaces just need to be informed that the usual a-spec narrative is not the only one. But this will change as people share their experiences.

8. more aro awareness alongside but also differentiated from ace awareness, and all this coupled with a focus on acceptance rather than identification

9. A case by case basis? I guess? It'd depend on the scope of the space

10. Booths at Pride recognizing the lesser known orientations. Doesn’t even have to be booths! Pins, stickers, t-shirts work just fine. Maybe a logo for a-spec, aro-spec, and aroace staying that we are all united.

11. have info that includes all of us eg. pamphlets don't have the ace flag everywhere and acknowledge that their are aspecs who experience romantic or sexual attraction, and that not everyone uses the sam.

12. I have only come across one aspec space in-person but it is in the form of a discussion group and everyone is allo ace so I feel extremely unwelcome. I wish there were more resources about aromanticism I could bring to these groups.

13. For one: language is important. Renaming everything to a-spec meetups/groups instead of ace meetups/groups makes the other identity more welcomed and higher possibilities of growing the community. Again, there are more aces out there than aros at the moment, so it is up to those ace groups to make it more inclusive to all a-spec people. We're a community in this together wheter you feel a certain identity or not. That's what being Queer's all about.

14. Create an aro-space first... Then events for sub-groups only where they can talk amongst themselves but also community events

15. Have a large variety of arospec spaces to choose from so that everyone can have their needs met

16. Talk about all aspects, let people voice their experiences and find common ground

17. I don't participate in in-person communities. Partly because I'm not out to more than just a few friends, and partly because I wouldn't want to go to one and be the stereotypical aroace. I feel both far too representative of both the aro and ace communities, and also not part of either. And thanks to the discourse, I'm not convinced I'd be welcome at a queer meetup at all. In addition, I've already mentioned before that just bringing up my experiences as either an ace or an aro tends to be a conversation-killer. So, I guess it rolls back around to visibility. Making others aware of our existence so that when aro experiences DO come up in in-person conversations, we can avoid the uncomfortable, awkward silences that follow. And I think that can only be done by talking about them.

18. I'll eat my hat the day that I manage to find a sizable in-person space for aces or aros

How do we reconcile conflicting needs?

1. I believe this question is far too subjective to each instance that has and will pop up. Which is no help unfortunately.

2. We accept that sometimes someone needs these needs and someone else needs other needs. Also we ask what people's needs are before we assume their needs.

3. By talking out our issues civilly and talking about what bothers us so we can accommodate and adapt as needed if needed, and filter out people who just make the community toxic.

4. Live and let live. Talk it out. Find a solution rather than growing increasingly angry. Literally anything that’s not cocooning away in indignation, we are supposed to be a community.

5. i don't think our needs actually conflict, for the most part. with the exception of greyro/arospec folks needing space to talk about romance and romance repulsed folks needing to get away from it. but that can be solved by tagging things (at least in the case of online spaces). i think a lot of our perceived conflict comes from the conflation of different issues. for example, giving alloaros room to exist apart from asexuality and giving aroaces room to navigate that awkward space in between aren't inherently mutually exclusive. i recognize that striking that sort of balance is easier said than done, but i think if it were easy we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. we're a diverse population and our needs are ALWAYS going to differ. but we're also always going to overlap in a lot of ways, which is why the aro community exists to begin with.

6. Imagine you have a spoiled child. You can do everything in your power to give them what they need. Do you think it will be ever enough? Oh, but what's worse, by concentrating on the spoiled child, you completely forgot you have a second one, starving in the corner.

7. Give each person a choice in the language they use and don't force anyone into an identity/stereotype of aspec experience that doesn't fit. Just listen to people.

8. By giving space for both and working out compromises or plans of action

9. Definitely not fuckin argue for weeks and attack one another, discourse only fragments our tiny movement

10. Set up a time for when allo aro can talk about their experience and the way their identities interact. This lets aroace choose whether they want to come or not. The usual meeting should be a time where any aroace, allo aro, and non-sam using aro can talk about being aro. Or for aros to just meet and interact.

11. a group discussion where everyone can share their experiences but also safe spaces for aroaces / alloaces / nonsam aros /grayros to talk so ppl can discuss if someone hurt them or made them feel excluded in the group discussion and so they can talk about things that are specific to their smaller communities

12. Open discussion and properly tagging things

13. Aro people have been patient. Ace and ace-spec people need to recognize that their exclusive behaviors are mirroring the same horrible mentality that exclusionists in the LGBT+ have. Also recognize that ignoring (or consistently forgetting) the identity is a form of the excluding that identity in regards to posts that are suppose to be a-spec/Queer/LGBTIA+ positive/informative.

14. Respect and communication, separate spaces when necessary

15. Creating sub-communities that can prioritize a specific group's needs in that space while not conflicting with the general aro community.

16. Idk like listen to eachother?

17. The people who have a problem avoid? Idk

18. honestly don't know. I absolutely understand the frustrations of alloaros getting ace posts in the aro tags, and I understand the frustrations of aroaces posting their experiences and being told those tags don't belong. I think the ace community as a whole needs to be made aware that the aro tag is not a dumping ground for ace-specific posts, and that if they want to include support and positivity and include the aro tag, then the post needs to INCLUDE US. I think a lot of frustration on all sides right now is that aromanticism comes off as asexuality's afterthought, and I don't think any of us as aros feel that way. I don't think we need a full break from the ace community, and I think we need to stop blaming aroaces when we make relevant posts to the aro tag, since I suspect quite a bit of this issue is from people who legitimately don't realize that aro tags are not the same as ace tags (i.e. ace positivity blogs that post something relevant to ace experiences and think they're being inclusive by "including" aros, because "we're all aspec, just swap out the 'sexual attraction' for 'romantic attraction'!"). But I, as an ace, am of the opinion that the ace community as a whole needs a solid kick in the pants to get them to work with us on cleaning up the tags and acknowledging that aros aren't just aces with a word swap, that we have our own significantly different concerns and ways to navigate the world that aces can't understand. But here's the problem, too. The ace community is one of the larger "aro" voices right now because the aro community is really quiet. Yes, we have our voices, but if you go looking for ace spaces, you find them. You find them in spades. You go looking for aro spaces? You have to dig. You almost have to know what you're looking for before you can find it. I see aros submitting asks on ace blogs, asking where to go to find aro-specific blogs, and there's always only a handful of suggestions. I think a lot of the reason aroaces seem so visible is because we -are- in the ace spaces, talking, and the ace spaces are big. The aromantic community's biggest priority right now is to grow and be heard.

19. fuck idk tbh the most we can really do is post about it and hope people see and listen

#aromantic #alloaro #aroace #arospec #greyro #greyromantic #non-sam aro #aro #long post #this ace blabbers #Community Discussion

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aro-ace-advice · 5 years ago

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Hi! Um this is going to be quite complicated 😅. So I'm trying to understand what my sexual identity is and I was wondering if you could help me with it☺. I've taken some tests and mostly my result was asexual. But then again, I'm an incurable romantic! Like I think maybe, that guy's personality is admirable, or, I like how he smiles and his eyes crinkle sort of thing (I think these kinda things only about guys and I'm a girl). But I haven't really ever had a crush either. hELP.

ree says: first of all, the labels asexual and aromantic are about attraction, not action. this is important to distinguish because a lot of people will automatically assume asexual=celibate or aromantic=perpetually single, and that’s not necessarily true. it depends on a person-to-person basis, and it’s part of what makes them such complicated labels. each asexual and / or aromantic person is going to deal with their sexuality in different ways. for example, i identify as aroace, meaning i experience no sexual or romantic attraction to other people, but while i’m sex-repulsed i am not particularly adverse to being in a romantic relationship. it just means that typically when i meet someone new, sex and romance are not the things that i look for in my relationship with them and are highly unlikely to be things that i seek to have in my life.

tests may not be the most helpful thing in this sort of situation. if they work for you, that’s cool, but asexuality is a varied and complicated spectrum and ultimately the only person who can really decide if that’s what you are is you. figuring out i was asexual was fast and easy, but i was left with doubts about it for years. settling on aromantic was much more difficult for me, and it happened after i realized that i didn’t really experience crushes either, and it’s not unlikely for me to go through periodic struggles because i am capable of feelings for people that go beyond just a crush. i’m also very romantic in some ways-- i love love! it’s a difficult thing to figure out, like finding a needle in a haystack that doesn’t actually contain a needle, and the copious number of tests i took to try and help me come to a conclusion only made me feel insecure in my identity. just keep in mind that tests are more likely to focus on the action and not the attraction, which is the opposite of what the label actually means.

you can also be asexual while still being hetero-romantic, meaning you experience no sexual attraction towards anyone, but you are romantically inclined towards the opposite gender. the two are not mutually exclusive. and if you decide that you are asexual, please remember that you are still totally capable of participating in a romantic relationship. i don’t know if you’re sex-repulsed, but sex doesn’t have to be a vital part of any relationship, so if it’s not something you want to take part in, you absolutely do not have to. your body, your choice, so don’t allow yourself to be pressured into something you don’t want. it’s not necessary, period.

again, asexuality and aromanticism are spectrums and there’s no right way to be aro or ace. you can be asexual and love sex, you can be aromantic and thrive in romantic relationships, et cetera et cetera. the label is about experiencing attraction. this sometimes ties in heavily with the action, but not always.

if you have any more questions or you’d like to discuss any of this more in-depth, please feel free to message me on my main blog, @clichedandsweet. once upon a time this blog had instant messaging, but it no longer does now that there are two admins so that’s the best way to reach me.

i hope this was helpful! cheers, anon!

#anonymous #questioning

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arojenniferwalters · 6 years ago

Text

No canon straight characters; using labels needed for canonicity? and period accuracy in fanfic

These are some random thoughts I have on couple of posts I've seen on my dash lately, so I'm just randomly writing down my thoughts:

1) most characters are not actually straight on canon because they don't specifically say 'I'm straight' or 'i'm only romantically and sexually attracted to people of the so called opposite gender'.

This is very true. In fact, most character never identify as straight unless there are non-straight or trans characters in the work as a counterpoint. Grace Adler says she's straight. Jennifer Walters is not lesbian. Peter whatever from Doubt is still straight when dating a trans woman. Kenzi from Lost Girl reciprocates Bo's coming out.

I recently wrote a long meta on another sideblog about how a character never identifies as straight and how the writing and portrayal lead to credible non-straight interpretations even though I know he's supposed to be straight.

So basically, straight characters are usually explicitly straight when it's known that not everyone is. If there exists character who are trans or not straight, other characters then might also express their straightness in response.

But mostly it's cisheteronormativity that makes us accept that unless they state otherwise, they are supposed to be cis and straight.

(Of course this gets complicated when we talk about rep bcus 'they didn't say they aren't x or y' doesn't really count as proper rep. But it's complicated, but like headcanons are fair game. Like, 'you shouldn't hc this canon straight character as not straight' isn't a good argument, because few character actually *are* canon straight. Most characters just have the potential to be or are in m/f pairings but that doesn't mean that straight is the only thing they can be.)

2) Labels are great. Labels tell people without a doubt who that character is and it is incredibly validating to see characters identify the same way you do (shoutout to Aled Last!). But does a character need to use a label to properly count as having this identity, if there is strong coding and word of god?

I'm conflicted. I really am. Because you can do a decent job of making characters gay/lesbian/m-spec without necessarily using a label (although not using it can be obnoxious, especially with m-spec characters), that's not necessarily the same with a-spec characters. Because there's not enough rep for us for people to read in and accept the subtext/coding. (Canon ace, coded aro is another issue but that's semi besides the point)

Here I'm mainly thinking of Raphael Santiago in books vs TV show, and comparing 2 word of god demi characters; Rivka of Mangoverse and Julian Blackthorn of The Dark Artifices.

So, book!Raphael for a long time was barely/maybe coded aroace and after he was killed off he became a word of god aroace through twitter. Then came 2017 and the tv show and new book appearances and suddenly he got to verbally say ace (and/or aro) things without using the label. I haven't read-read the books with that canonization yet but it seems to be very clear now that he is sex and romance repulsed aroace. Great.

The tv show canonized his aceness before the books did but they did it without using labels and basically making a mess of his romantic orientation (is he still aro? Arospec? Alloromantic who just didn't feel rom attraction much? He never did pursue a romantic relationship with Izzy after the addiction mess even though they acknowledged that they cared for each other, but was it romantic from Raph? We don't know! *throws hands in the air in frustration*).

As much as I love show!Raphael, "I'm just not interested in sex." isn't necessarily the best way to establish aceness. Mostly because if you google 'not interested in sex', you get articles on libido and how to increase it, with one article talking about aceness, but not in the title. But the fact that Raphael says he's always been like this, that he's never pressured into having sex and is at peace with his orientation does, to me, make it good rep. I still kinda wish he'd used a label though.

Then the demi rep: neither Rivka nor Julian identifies as demi in text. Shira Glassman didn't at first realize she was writing Rivka in a demi way, in fact the backcover identifies her as straight (kinda as a 'there will be no romantic tension between Rivka and Shulamit' way, similar to Bo and Kenzi in section 1). But when people mentioned that she seems like a hetro demi, Shira embraced that and while the world doesn't do labels the way we do, she is still demi. I love her and I am happy she exists and she is accepted demi rep.

Now, Julian is a different thing. In TDA, he is 17, the year is 2012 and the Internet exists. After the 2nd book, people started speculating that Julian is demi based on how he thinks about never being attracted to anyone but Emma, and how he had started to feel different from his peers when he didn't start experiencing attraction like they did. Someone asked about this from Cassandra Clare and she answered the ask privately, saying that if he was a modern, non-Shadowhunter teenager and he had access to information about the identity, that he would identify as demisexual. The issue is that considering the timeframe (2012) and everything about his situation, he doesn't have access to that label so he doesn't use it.

So. Here we have a canon demi character, based on coding and word of god who has semi realistic reason for not knowing the label and thus not identifying with it, even though he would if he could. But a lot of people don't want to accept that. And that's where my issues come from: Julian says and thinks some very demi things, and to me doesn't do anything that invalidates his deminess. Why is that not enough? Like, I absolutely want him to use that label, I want to read him say it and find comfort in it. But why is his character not demi rep enough because he doesn't use the word?

Rivka has similar reasons for not having the label (not our world and the terminology doesn't exist) and while I doubt there are that much overlap between the 2 fandoms, I am curious about the difference. Neither one is not identifying as demi because they aren't demi, they don't identify as demi because they don't know the identity exists. Yet both are still demi characters.

How much does a character have to emphasize that they've only ever been attracted to one person/very few people, with the author validating that reading, before they are acceptable demi rep?

Another point is Princeless: Raven the Pirate Princess. That one has at least one demi character and maybe two acearo characters but they don't use labels. I love them all, but I feel uncertain about talking about Cid as an aroace character because she hasn't been talked about in that way the way Jayla has been. And I love Quinn and I cried when I read that the (pirate) ship has characters who identify as demisexual in a creator letter, but again, no one is using a-spec labels. It's frustrating. But it doesn't invalidate the rep.

3) I think the level of knowledge characters have on queerness should be an in-character discussion. Like, I've written characters as demi without the character using the label; I've written characters discovering a label; I have one fic where there's little possibility of the character having knowledge of the identity (because it's possible the label hasn't been coined yet). I try to stay in character about whether the character would know or have use for label and keep in mind the timeframe. There's a demi pairing I can't really write because neither characters exist in 2006 and beyond. Someone once complained that a book published in 2003 didn't describe the character as demi when the label hadn't yet been created while asexual worked as an umbrella term which included demis, so it still makes sense that the character would identify as asexual.

I don't think it's wrong to have a character be very knowledgeable about queer things if that's what you want to write, whether or not that's in character or realistic within the timeframe. Fanfic is about self indulgeance after all.

Some of that relates to what I'm in the mood to write. My magnum opus is 'this character is demi in all 78 eps of the show, but he'll only figure it out towards the beginning of the last season, just because I want that' and then I have another that's 'screw it, he has a better idea about his queerness but realizes the full picture in s4'.

I do try to be period accurate and think about whether or not the character would have access to the term. But sometimes I just want to have my faves identifying the way I want them to.

4) These are some very random, semi connected thoughts and I'm not even quite sure what the point was. I just feel like writing more about these things.

I am interested in discussing these issues. How much coding does a character need to be accepted as proper rep if the label isn't used? Can rep be valid if a random person reading it doesn't realize that there is that specific coding? If the book has queer readers, is there more leeway (sp) to not using the label, assuming that people reading a book with bi and trans characters or an f/f might also pick up the demi/ace/aro coding? If the author unknowingly wrote a demi character, does it still count if they accept that reading of the character and keep writing them as demi?

Anyway that was a lot of randomness.

#idk how to tag this #my ramblessay

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