#and not who mingjue wants him to be

[thatswhatsushesaid]

happy sunday!! time to remember how small and alone and frightened and scared nie huaisang looks while held captive in qishan!

specifically, that moment when he finds out qinghe has been taken by the qishan wen, and asks that sentient sphincter muscle wen chao, "what happened to my big brother?!"

and wen chao just smiles at him and says, "what do you think?"

anyway it low key broke my heart!! someone give huaisang a hug 🥺

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

I have never seen this man in my life.

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[qiu-yan]

a lot of what nie mingjue does makes sense if you consider his specific code of ethics, his position, and the fact that he's known for pretty much his entire life that his cultivation path will kill him and has accepted this fact entirely....but the one thing i don't understand is why he swore brotherhood with jin guangyao. from nie mingjue's point of view, jin guangyao is already the guy who faked a suicide to escape from nie mingjue after nie mingjue tried to bring him to justice for straight-up murder, and that's not even getting into all the fear, anger, and trauma nie mingjue must still be bearing from the wen yao confrontation at nightless city. why would you want to tie yourself via sworn brotherhood to someone who has already done all this shit to you?

consider also the fact that nie mingjue knows his saber cultivation will lead him to become more unstable, impair his judgment, and may even affect his perceptions of reality - which means that he needs confidants he can trust. jin guangyao, via the whole suicide gambit, has already proven to nie mingjue that he is not trustworthy. so if nie mingjue knows that trustworthiness is necessary and that trust is something he's going to need, why would he choose to tie himself to someone he already thinks of as untrustworthy?

some potential reasons i can think of (written from nie mingjue's pov, so they might read uncharitably):

first (1), there's nie mingjue's stated reason of "wanting to correct jin guangyao from the path of evil" (something along those lines). there's at least two different ways you can take this:

1A: nie mingjue wants to do this in order to protect others from jin guangyao: first, nie mingjue sees jin guangyao as an emerging threat no one else has yet recognized, and so wants to keep an eye on jin guangyao / keep him in check. if jin guangyao can be "corrected to the righteous path," then fewer innocent people suffer. second, nie mingjue wants to protect lan xichen from jin guangyao. from nie mingjue's pov, lan xichen has been completely taken in by jin guangyao's charm, so jin guangyao could pose a danger to him as well; by inserting himself into the sworn brotherhood, nie mingjue can be there to protect lan xichen.

1B: nie mingjue wants to do this in order to save jin guangyao himself: nie mingjue still loves jin guangyao and wants to save jin guangyao from the path of evil, for jin guangyao's own sake. confucius (and aristotle, and marx, and a whole bunch of other dudes) does say that if you see your friend doing something morally wrong, then as their friend you have a duty towards them specifically to object to their behavior.

second (2), there are also some more practical / political reasons:

2A: the sworn brotherhood secures a more stable future for nie huaisang, since it entails long-term connections with the jin and the lan.

2B: a sworn brotherhood between high-profile members of different sects after the ordeal of the sunshot campaign could help in encouraging more postwar intersect unity, which would be necessary and beneficial in a time period in which everyone's still struggling to recover from the war. this sworn brotherhood ties the jin, the lan, and the nie together as allies, meaning they can share resources and information as they rebuild. of course, this does entail the exclusion of the jiang - but my personal opinion is that they all lowkey expected jiang cheng to fail and for the jiang to decline / be absorbed by another sect.

third and finally (3), there are the simple interpersonal reasons, unrelated to morality or politics:

3A: nie mingjue still cares for jin guangyao and therefore still wants a relationship with him. at the moment he swore brotherhood, he was still willing to try and mend things with jin guangyao.

3B: nie mingjue wants to make lan xichen happy, and lan xichen clearly wants the sworn brotherhood.

3C: if nie mingjue refuses to swear brotherhood, lan xichen may very well go ahead and swear brotherhood with jin guangyao anyways. which would lead to lan xichen and jin guangyao becoming closer, while lan xichen by contrast drifts further way from nie mingjue.

probably some aspect of all of these (plus some other reasons i forgot) are true at once. what's interesting, though, is that one can construct two overlapping yet also separate categories of reasons - separated by whether one believes nie mingjue still holds personal affection for jin guangyao or not.

[tavina-writes]

I have been recently thinking about NHS and JGY's relationship, especially as it pertains to how much they understand each other, and I'm pretty sure the conclusion I'm coming to is that JGY doesn't actually understand NHS at all except like, in vague superficiality?

This is not an argument about whether or not JGY cared about NHS (though he seems to have some pretty big blind spots on what is actually good for NHS or what he actually desires, which, again come back to not really understanding what makes NHS tick) because I don't think you can spend well over a decade cleaning up someone else's problems without caring for the person in question. But more like, the events of the Temple and the Discussion Conference prior to the Temple and indeed anything leading up to the Temple at all would not have occurred if JGY actually understood? NHS? at all?

Like, obviously NHS was concealing the truth and acting while he proceeded with his revenge scheme, JGY (who presumably had some amount of time to think about who could possibly want him dead/disgraced/fleeing off to Dongyin) doesn't even begin to suspect that the person who wrote the letter and arranged all of this might be NHS until LXC's already stabbed him.

That's a pretty big fucking blind spot considering the whole thing is being unearthed because of NMJ's murder corpse put together shenanigans. Like he knows to hide Chifeng-zun's head but not to suspect Chifeng-zun's brother???

Like I think this might go beyond "doesn't understand anything about this other person besides on a very superficial level" to "might genuinely have some pretty big MISconceptions about who this person is or what they're like."

[lgbtlunaverse]

I'm a little bit insane about how in novel canon the whole xiyao ending where Jin Guangyao wants to die with Xichen, who accepts, which then makes jgy change his mind and pushes him away at the last second isn't actually explicit. A lot of adaptations chose to make it so but in the novel this is all VERY up for interpretation.

Here's what actually happens in the text: Lan xichen stabs jgy, jgy moves away from lan xichen, xichen follows him, wwx realizes jgy is about to open the coffin and calls "watch out!" to lan xichen. Jgy unseals nmj, pushes xichen away, nmj kills jgy and they are both dragged into the coffin which is sealed again.

Here's what wei wuxian, our narrator, thinks is happening: Jin Guangyao wanted to lead lan xichen to his death out of revenge for stabbing him. Lan Xichen, unaware, simply followed Jin Guangyao to try and stop him from getting away. Wei wuxian's warning came too late, but Jin Guangyao- for an unknown reason- changed his mind at the last second and pushed lan xichen out of danger before lan xichen had any idea of what was going on.

Here's what most fans as well as the teams behind several adpatations think is happening: Jin Guangyao leads Xichen to nmj's coffin to die with him, Xichen accepts, because of this acceptance, proof xichen still cares for him, Jin Guangyao pushes him out of harm's way. Wei Wuxian just doesn't get that gay people who aren't him or Lan Wangji exist.

Here's what ALSO MIGHT BE HAPPENING: Jin guangyao wants to die in a different way than he is currently dying. Maybe he's afraid of what'll happen to his body after his death like he was scared for his mother's, maybe he wants to confront nmj one last time now that there's nothing more for him to lose, maybe - if he can't take her body with him- he'd at least like his final resting place to be where he buried his mother. Lan Xichen thinks he's trying to get away and follows but Jin Guangyao, who despite everything doesn't want him to die, pushes him away. Xichen doesn't know what happened until it's already happened. What he would've wanted if he had known remains up in the air.

Or, alternatively: Jin Guangyao's reasons are as above, but unbeknowst to Wei Wuxian, Xichen DOES know what jgy is about to do and either misinterprets this as an invitation to all die together, or inidividually decides he, too, is done, and wants to join his sworn brothers in the grave. To Jin Guangyao this has nothing to do with Lan Xichen, and he still doesn't want him to die, so he pushes him away against Lan Xichen's wishes.

Every single one of these interpretations is unhinged and they are all supported by the original text. It's like a choose your own adventure of tragic gay endings.

[cubbyhole-for-flea-bee]

boss makes a dollar

i makes a dime

so i draws owl-dage

on company time

or; smushing together owl-NMJ w/ meerkat JGY for dopamine generation!

[yunmeng-jiang]

I'm trying really hard to like NMJ and sympathize with his character recently... I've had a fairly hostile view of him since pretty much the beginning, so it's difficult to turn that around, but I don't want to fall into the trap that I keep getting annoyed at other people in the fandom for falling into (stubbornly sticking to their initial interpretation of a character to the extent where they're not actually paying attention to the text, they're just blindly hating because they don't bother to dig any deeper than surface-level This Character Was Mean To My Blorbo)

[bahoreal]

i really enjoy both empathy scenes because theyre both unreliable narrators and are so telling of the person who experienced it! aqing remembers all the times xue yang was slimy and evil because she wants wei wuxian to kill him and she hates him for what he did, so all her memories are changed based on that

nie mingjue remembers meng yao smiling evilly and he adds scenes of him hearing the talk in the cave before going outside to sit and wait for nie mingjue. he wasnt there! he wouldnt have known if that happened or not! outside of nie mingjues flashback meng yao keeps such a tight hold on his expressions! nie mingjue has always viewed things as black and white and meng yao was too grey for him, he never believed a word meng yao said and relied on other people-- who hated meng yao!-- to back up his beliefs, so he could hate meng yao for being too evil. his vision is tainted by his emotions, he is an unreliable narrator, and he also wants wei wuxian to kill meng yao and get him justice

anyway. incredible scenes. both so justified in their hatred but it bleeds into their memories in such an interesting way lol

[textualviolence]

screenshotting this tag because i’m not trying to start a fight but. with all due respect i could not disagree more

[tvxcue]

i can feel myself returning to who i was in early 2020...............

[yourcrumblingsaikiisnotmyproblem]

here's a few reminders for the mxtx fandom

1. Wei Wuxian had 2 older sister figures in his life and they both died trying to save him and in the end failed since he died anyway. (RIP Wen Qing and Jiang Yanli)

2. Mu Qing only ever had his mom other than XL and FX and she died a mortal death. We don't know anything about FX's mortal family.

3. Wen Ning was experimented on for 13 years in captivity after seeing his sister's ashes and blames himself still for wwx's downfall

4. He Xuan cannot leave the world even after his revenge to Shi Wudu and is purposeless for all of his immortal life.

5. Jin Ling will never taste his mom's handmade favourite soup.

6. Canon Feng Xin and Mu Qing do not know what happened at the temple to Xie Lian.

7. Jiang Cheng will probably never be good enough in his own eyes (until he has like grand-nephews or something)

8. Shi Qingxuan will (probably) die a mortal death.

9. Some of Nie Huaisang's last words to Nie Mingjue were that he never wanted to be a clan leader.

10. XL and WWX both tried to protect a certain demographic that got wiped out anyway and made them public enemies and reason for their eventual downfall making it essentially ineffective.

11. All the calamities are actually gods who could or did ascend heaven.

12. Xiao Xingchen killed himself after finding out he wiped out villages full of innocent people and his own best friend who he gave up his eyes for. And realising his pursuit of helping the world was worthless.

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

about that one lan qiren & jin guangshan art: .....does that mean wen ruohan has both or is he as flat as a board on the opposite? XD

Mans so flat they rotated him 90 degrees and he disappeared from the narrative.

[sunderwight]

I appreciate how every sect leader in MDZS who had a hand in the slaughter of the Burial Mounds and the deaths of the Wen siblings and their family and Wei Wuxian, ends up suffering ironic fates in the aftermath.

Like Jiang Cheng, who denies his debts in an effort to avoid paying them and preserve his image, has a terrible public image by the time we catch up with him again and is saddled with the knowledge of a debt he can never hope to ignore. Nie Mingjue, so willing to ignore the schemes of the Jin clan when they're targeting people he dislikes, has fallen victim to those same schemes himself. Lan Xichen, who failed to initiate any kind of investigation into the claims being bandied about, later has his lack of due diligence really come back to bite him in the ass. Jin Guangshan, who wanted to be Wen Ruohan 2.0, has been assassinated by the same guy who assassinated Wen Ruohan. Jin Guangyao, who helped set Wei Wuxian up as a villain, is eventually torn down by the exact same process and mob mentality.

Like, feel free to sympathize or lament some of it, but it does very much feel like they made their own beds too and I love that. The core tragedy of MDZS is not a miscommunication or misunderstanding, it's that the people willing to actually stand up for what was right were vastly outnumbered by the people who looked the other way. But that didn't turn out well for those guys either.

[poorlittleyaoyao]

I do think it's interesting how Meng Yao doesn't use his Customer Service Face with Nie Mingjue ever while he's in Qinghe. He uses it with the captain, of course:

He's a little more subdued earlier when he's talking with everyone at Chang Manor--he looks pleasant and disarming (which makes sense, given that these people don't know him and he doesn't want to look like he's talking over Nie Huaisang, who should technically be the authority there on his brother's behalf), but it's not quite so forced.

But when he's actually interacting with Nie Mingjue on the clock, he's neutral to almost stern.

Even when he's trying to convince him to change his mind about something (obliterating Xue Yang on the spot, in this case), he talks to him... not quite as an equal, exactly, but as an adult.

And when Nie Mingjue ultimately agrees with him, he doesn't fawn or thank him or anything, he just gives this businesslike bow of assent.

And politely but firmly orders two guards over himself to help him escort Xue Yang to prison.

...and then once he leaves the building (and Nie Mingjue's field of vision) he encounters the captain and immediately goes into his Customer Service Mode, with his smile getting wider and more strained the more the captain disrespects him.

I just think it's interesting! I'm not necessarily arguing that the way he interacts with Nie Mingjue is his natural way of being; it's possible that Meng Yao simply clocked that Nie Mingjue values plain-spoken competence and adjusted his mannerisms accordingly.

But if this directness is what Nie Mingjue was accustomed to seeing from Meng Yao, imagine how unsettling he must find the obsequious rictus smile that Jin Guangyao wears 24/7 in his father's service.

[coulsandies]

mdzs headcanon of the day #314 !

between the nie bros, huaisang snores. and not even like, deep breathing or light snoring, but he SNORES. mingjue wants to suffocate him bc huaisang’s going around telling everyone that mingjue is the one who snores

[lgbtlunaverse]

It seems the dash has been talking about the Lan Xichen - Nie Huaisang post-canon dynamics and it's gotten me thinking about how discussion around post-canon Lan Xichen's absolutely horrendous mental state often center around the question of "who is Lan Xichen angry at and who does he feel guilty about" which, at its worst, seperates into 2 camps where according to one side he feels guilty about not protecting jgy and hates the Nies and, on the other side he has completely flipped on jgy and despises him now while being filled with regret towards both nmj and nhs.

And I dislike both of these takes not just because it often feels like people projecting their own Blorbo opinions onto Lan Xichen which is never a fun time but also because that central question is flawed to begin with. It treats anger and guilt like opposing emotions that can't coexist or, if they do, have to compete until one wins and cancels the other out.

And that's not how that... works.

To be clear, the reason why Lan Xichen is so supremely fucked up at the end of the story is that he believes on some level he fucked over everyone in this situation. And, even more importantly, that even with hindsight he can't actually think of what he should have done instead. Every attempt to do better by one seems to involve fucking over the others even more because these people were in conflict with each other and choosing one would mean standing against another

And none of this would actually stop him from feeling angry at any of them. It's not "who is he angry at and who does he feel guilty about" it's: "he is angry at everyone and feels an immediate and bone deep guilt for daring to think badly of them."

Speaking from personal experience here, but feeling like you're not allowed to be angry at someone because you wronged them really doesn't stop the feeling, it just maks you feel like shit for feeling it. And this is all worsened by the fact that what he's in seclusion for is, at the end of the day, a moral question of what he, Lan Xichen, did wrong and every single emotion serves as further proof of the ways he's failed them.

Is he angry at Jin Guangyao, for killing his oldest friend, using Lan xichen's trust in him to do it, and then lying to him about it and countless other things for a decade when Lan Xichen thought of him as the person he trusted the most in the entire world? Yeah. That's a thing people get angry about! Except Jin Guangyao also saved his life and protected and helped him more times than he can count and never ever hurt him and can Lan Xichen say the same? No. He had to clean A-Yao's blood off Shouyue, he has to be haunted by the fact that if he just hadn't listened to Huaisang- hadn't been just like everyone else, in the end, and believed a lie about Jin Guangyao just to think the worst of him- then Jin Guangyao might still be alive.

Is he angry at Huaisang? For orchestrating the death of his best friend? For making him do it? For knowing what the real cause behind Nie Mingjue's death was and never telling him until he found out in the absolute worst way? Absolutely. But didn't Huaisang hide it from him for a reason? Wasn't it his clan's techniques and his personal faith in Jin Guangyao that cost Huaisang his brother? How dare he demand that Huaisang let him in on the secret of his brother's murderer when Lan Xichen is here wondering about how he should have protected that murderer better!

And I do even think he's angry at Nie Mingjue, sometimes I think it's pretty normal to be angry at your friend for kicking your other friend down the stairs and threatening to kill him, even when you know his mind is being poisoned. And years later the last thing he ever saw of Nie Mingjue was Nie Mingjue's thoughtless corpse coming to kill him before Jin Guangyao pushed him away and then proceeded to graphocally snap Jin Guangyao's neck in front of him. And if what he wants to do is protect Jin Guangyao, shouldn't he be mad at Mingjue? Didn't this whole mess start because Jin Guangyao was afraid Nie Mingjue was going to kill him?

Except holy shit, can you imagine? Lan Xichen feels like he personally has Nie Mingjue's blood on his hands. Your oldest friend is killed in front of you and you happily believe it's an accident for 11 years and now you think you have the right to be mad at him? You watched him get worse as he was being poisoned and attributed it to his illness and not to the techniques stolen from your library with the token you give his murderer. Does he think Nie Mingjue knew who he was in that moment and wanted to kill him? That he blamed Lan Xichen for his death? (For the record, I don't. I don't agree with most of what Lan Xichen thinks about himself, but I've been in a self-blame spiral and I know how it feels)

But what was he supposed to do then? Choose Mingjue's side and let A-Yao die? That's also unacceptable. But so is letting Jin Guangyao get away with it. Every single outcome is unacceptable. And really, if Jin Guangyao felt like he had to kill Nie Mingjue to save himself, when it was Lan Xichen who was supposed to keep the peace between them, isn't that another mark of his failure? That he couldn't protect Jin Guangyao well enough that he felt he had to do something so horrible?

But that's not an answer! He's supposed to know what he should have done different, and all he can come up with is "what you were already doing, but without failing this time" He can't pick a side because that means betrayal, but he's already tried not picking a side and it ended like this! There is no right answer, which can only leave him with the idea that he was simply doomed to hurt the people he loved from the start. No wonder the guy looks like shit when we see him post-canon. They put him in a real life trolley problem and gave him the lever as a souvenir.